Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Bruno Larval. He is the founder and CEO of Larval, and we talk about how MSLs can win on social media in medical affairs. Great conversation. Bruno is the best. Hope you guys enjoy this. Don't forget to connect and follow me on LinkedIn and social media. Also, check us out on YouTube. We have our videos up there. And, lastly, join us for MSL talk live, which is the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Bruno. Welcome to the podcast again. Thanks for joining me. Thank you, Tom. So excited to have you back. It's, this is kinda part 2 because we we met not that long ago. It was a great conversation. This one is gonna be even better. I'm really excited about this chat.
So but before we get into it, love to have you introduce yourself and, tell everybody who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff. And and I actually wanna say because I'm from France originally, and I know your podcast is listened everywhere in the world, including many countries that speak French, plus France is going to the the finals. So that's exciting for the World Cup. I am the cofounder of Laravel, which is a a SaaS company headquartered in San Francisco.
But as we heard last time, all of our business is done actually in virtual reality, in the metaverse. We are selling software solutions and data solutions to the pharma, the healthcare industry, and in particular, the medical affairs community. So we love the community that you're serving with your podcast and also with your recruitment business. And, we we're delighted to be here today. Yeah. Awesome. And guys, Bruno came up with this topic, which I think is a really important one.
I think it's a relevant one. I think it's gonna help a lot of folks out there, not just MSLs. I think this is one of those topics that's going to help a lot of people, anybody that might be listening. Couple couple things I wanna get out of the way before we get started. For those of you listening right now, you can't see us. I came prepared with my purple larval hat. So I actually showed up to work today with my purple larval hat, if you guys aren't familiar with the company.
The brand really stands out because Bruno's colors are purple. I also and I mentioned this on our last podcast. I have a pair of purple larval socks that I picked up at a at a conference. I went to wear find them. My daughter stole them. So I have the purple hat minus the purple socks, but I am all ready to go. And I think that's important because, Larval is is a sponsor of ours. They're actually sponsoring this episode today.
And if you guys aren't familiar with them, they were established in 2004, and they combine the best of both artificial and human intelligence to deliver expertly curated and personalized data solutions to medical affairs, competitive intelligence, commercial, and r and d teams within the pharmaceutical and biotech industry. So for more details on Larval, check them out on larval.com. And Bruno is someone that I highly highly regard.
I've known him for a long time, and I'm excited to talk to him about social media. So, Bruno, where do we start? I mean, you know, are MSL supposed to be on social media? Like, let's start there. Well, it's an interesting topic because it's a bit of a controversial Yes. Topic. So I'm not an MSL. So everything I know from the MSL will come from my customers. So at the same time, I've got maybe the benefit of being a little bit outside looking in.
Mhmm. And also, but but I'm not in the trenches of being an MSL. So what I I want to say that as a caveat to my my commentary is today. Also, we are developing and we are selling solutions having to do with social listening in particular, not engagement. And that's what's so interesting about the topic of social media for me in medical affairs is how the the the the challenges between listening and engaging.
Mhmm. And my my my best guess from all the interactions I have is that the industry is still very, very nervous about engaging. The compliance department, the legal department are worrying that if you engage as an MSL with KOL, the compliance sort of, guards that exist in your normal engagement are probably too progress. There's some challenges there that inadvertently, you could actually create a liability. Right.
And so my general sense is that the stage we're in between the medical affair world and social media, and then we can talk more broadly about social media, by the way, outside of medical affairs, is that right now is the age of listening, of monitoring, and the engagement probably should be limited to, I would even argue, just liking, not even reposting not even reposting what doctor Smith just tweeted about that trial.
There's probably even some compliance department at the time that they don't even like. Yeah. If if it's a KOL you track and you're an MSL, don't even like don't even engage. You can engage using maybe direct messages or, of course, perhaps, but do not even like them. I if I were to myself, I would argue to my manager, we can like. Liking is not a level of engagement that is problematic.
But as soon as you start engaging beyond liking, I I do expect people to get very nervous in, the the compliance department of pharma. So I think most of the action today is in listening, actively listening. So what you're saying is so for example, you follow, your KOLs on social media. Let's say it's Twitter, LinkedIn. You follow their posts, see what they're posting, and you're just reading.
You're in the background, and you're just picking up whatever it is that they're putting down and putting out there to learn and gain insights about what their interests are. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. And you mentioned the 2 platforms that matter the most, of course, Twitter and LinkedIn. Of course, some, some keywords are starting to be active on on Instagram, on on reels in particular, on TikTok even sometimes.
Yeah. But it's it's harder and there's not enough people to to really have a ton of activity. But, if I were hiring, MSL right now, I would say, you have to be actively listening to your KOLs on LinkedIn and on Twitter. And then if you want to engage with them, you can use a traditional channels. But at least you know what's going on with doctor Smith and, and so on and so forth. So active listening, I believe, is where the the the activity, the action, the opportunities are.
But I will add one thing to it, which is that, I believe you cannot not listen. Yeah. I would argue that in MSL, you have, even today, it's nearly expected for for true KOL. I mean, the definition of KOL in our industry has evolved and diluted a little bit. Right? A lot of HCP has followed. They're not really KOL. They're not that active.
But for for people who are really, especially emerging KOL, rising stars, I believe that increasingly, if I'm a physician, if I'm a KOL, a rising star, a young Turk, so to speak, I have to be active in social media. Some of my friends, they they their institutions, in oncology in particular or the journal they're publishing on are saying, how active are you in social media? If you're not active, you're not gonna have the impact and the visibility in supporting the publication you just did.
So I think that the the most important part of the KOL community is going to be active, and that as an MSL, there's a need to listen to them, I would argue. Yep. Okay. I got a couple of questions here. I'm I'm gonna kinda go in, once a specific order, but I'm gonna get back to this idea of of of listening. So you have these KOLs that are out and they're active on social media. This Those that are very active, does that make them a DOL? Do they now become a digital opinion leader?
That's a great question. They are some people call that the Kardashian ratio, which is a ratio between the number of followers and the number of publications. And there are some wonderful, oncologists, again, that's the main area I'm focusing on, that are wonderful, loved by everybody. They are very influential in some ways, but nearly more socially than academically. They don't have a lot of publication, for the point. They don't even maybe do clinical trials.
In oncology, doctor Don Dyson, doctor Mark Lewis, who I know, I'm friends with both of them, they're wonderful people. They're not very active academically. Their influence is nearly more more social in some ways. I would not consider them the traditional definition of a digital opinion leaders from a influence or practice standpoint. And so the just looking at the number of followers and being an oncologist, let's say, is not enough to be a DOL, to be a digital opinion leader. Got you. Alright.
So so these so these folks exist out there. And and if you're an MSL and you're not listening and you're not paying attention, you really could be missing missing out on some key messaging. So let's just say you're doing that. Right? So you're you're an MSL and you're listening on these platforms. What do you do next? Of course, the goal of an MSL, to a degree, is is engagement within the compliance constraint of, of your set by by your by your enterprise.
To engage, you need to have an anchor for engagement, a reason to engage, a context for that engagement. So knowing what doctor Smith, is where doctor Smith is gonna be next, Maybe at a big conference or maybe at a small webinar, at a small symposium, at a grand round. So all of these mini engagement opportunities where, there could be an opportunity for you to see if Doctor. Smith needs any help or to otherwise engage with Doctor. Smith or follow Doctor. Smith's activity in that situation.
So knowing these events is not easy. It's actually not easy. So you have 2 ways to know that. Well, actually, 3 ways. The third one is a bit self serving. But one way is to follow doctor Smith on Twitter and on LinkedIn. And hopefully, doctor Smith will announce where I will be doing a symposia at University of XYZ on, in January. The second way is to Google doctor Smith. MSL don't have time to Google doctor Smith and and every other k. Well, every week.
The third, that's the infomercial part maybe, is to high level because we have a team of people whose job it is to search on Google every week, where is doctor Smith and what is she doing? Right? And so to tell you then, okay, doctor Smith will have a webinar that day, will buy symposium that day, will be on the, on Tom's podcast that other day, etcetera. Yeah. So you have to listen.
Basically, you have to follow along and see what's going on, gain insights, use that as a strategy for engagement and and to anchor your engagements or icebreakers or just being in the know. Because if you're not listening, if you're not on social media, you you may not be able to uncover or really identify, all of or some of or most of what this KOL is interested in and what's going on, what's relevant. Is that what you're saying? Yes. It's not just engagement situation.
There's also what interests at KOL. Right. The question they have, the debate, or sometimes the conflicts of opinion that or of person sometimes, as you know, that they're engaged in. And if I were I love to speculate about things I'm not doing. If I were an MSL, what I would do is actually not use what I know about that KOL as a nice breaker because that's kind of a little bit, it's a little bit too calculated in some ways.
Right. What I will do is that I will talk to doctor Smith, and I will know what happened. And then naturally in the conversation, doctor Smith will even understand that I know that. And then I would really, I think, impress, or even what I avoid saying or what I the the the I will know certain things that would make the conversation much more rich and much more, context driven, so to speak, for doctor Smith.
And then maybe he will come into conversation that I know what I learned in social media about doctor Smith, or maybe he will not come. And in both cases, I think my relationship with doctor Smith, my ability to, within the compliance guideline, help doctor Smith will be will be higher. I have to stop talking about doctor Smith because, imagine being named doctor Smith and do you care about everybody's talking about you. That's right. That's right. Alright. Let's switch gears for a second.
So we're talking about listening and how you can educate yourself. Be a part of the conversation without being a part of the conversation. Know and arm yourself with information for engagement, however you decide to use it. But what about MSL's posting, creating a brand on whether it's LinkedIn or Twitter, professionally? So now you're an MSL, and you have these social media outlets available to you. And that's an opportunity for personal for professional branding.
So what should MSLs be doing actively on social platforms? I I wasn't thinking about that angle, Tom, and, now I am. If I were an MSL, I will do exactly that. I will come to your show, but also I will try to build my presence in the industry without but while being careful that, of course, the compliance people are okay with, with me.
And I think that as long as I don't engage with KOLs, and I talk broadly about topics relevant to my field, my industry, or in general trends in the field, and engage with my peers, I'm quite certain there is absolutely a compliant way to do this.
And the beauty of it is that for me to, number 1, create a presence that would lead for more, employment opportunities, number 1, but sharing best practices with my colleagues, feeling that you're part of an industry or sub industry, the medical affairs. I think this is wonderful. I really recommend people who are current MSL or maybe aspiring MSL to build their profile, to engage that way.
Again, maybe not with KOL too directly, but with each other, with with influencers like yourself in some ways in in the field.
I when when I hire people from my company, and and sometimes I say that it's a little controversial perhaps, if they're not engaged socially in social media, on Twitter and on LinkedIn, that's a that's a problem for me because I know that in 5, 10, 20 years, the conversation, the engagement in our field, in our professional activity is gonna be more shared, more open, more social media driven, whether it's podcast, whether it's TikTok, whether it's Twitter type.
So I think that all of us as professionals, we owe it to ourselves, even even someone who doesn't have necessarily, you know, a big profile yet to engage professionally. And what what I tell people, and that's also a little bit of a, sometimes, tough position, is that I feel it's too difficult to decouple the personal and the professional. In other words, of course, on Twitter and on LinkedIn, you might especially on Twitter, you might post, you know, personal stuff as well.
And and, in my view, the future is accepting that we're still one person, and it would not be fair to expect someone on Twitter to only tweet personal, only tweet professional, and that it's okay if we're more informal and more sort of unified as who we are between the personal sphere and the professional sphere. That will be my prediction about social media. That will be my advice to maybe a younger me looking at, how to use social media in my in my career.
It's such a part of of society and the professional world that we live in right now that if you if you don't have at least a decent presence on social media, you're probably doing yourself a disservice. So for example, on the recruiting side, the first thing that we do when we get a resume from somebody or we get a name from somebody is we go on LinkedIn and we check out their LinkedIn profile. We look at everything. We look at their photo.
We look at their experience and their history and what their interests are. We look at their postings. We look to see if they've branded themselves in a certain way. If they're an expert if they have expertise in a certain therapeutic area. You mentioned oncology. So you're an oncology MSL, and you just went to ASH or ASCO. Well, you should be posting beforehand that you're heading to ASH or ASCO.
You should be be taking photos so that you could post them during and after for engagement purposes because everybody's seeing that. Your colleagues are seeing it. Your KOLs are seeing it. And that establishes you as an expert or at least someone who's in that space. So it's a great branding tool. And if you don't utilize it, you're missing out on an opportunity. Is that kind of what you're saying as well? And and yes.
And I understand how for some people who can be more private, more introvert socially or in with technology, it could come as an imposition on them. Mhmm. Right? I understand that. But with you, I would argue that it's a little bit like if you go to a conference, you work the room, you're social, you meet with people. And in in all part of business, but in particular, medical affairs, we we cannot not be extroverted professionally. We can be introverted personally.
That's everybody has a personality. But professionally, we have to we have to we have to reach out. And like you, I would argue that today, when you reach out to your colleague, to your field, to your to your network, you cannot just do it meeting in person and at conferences. You have to do it using the modern technology of today, which is which is social media. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so accepted. It's so out there. It's it's it really is an expected thing.
And I'll tell you and there are getting back to the compliance issues that you do have to be careful. There are a lot of MSLs that have been given the, the okay to engage. So we had, or I had Jason Demuth on my podcast a while back. I forget which episode it was, but Jason was with the first person that mentioned how active he was on Twitter. And he did exactly what you're saying to do.
He's he used to listen, find his KOLs, and he used to listen and sit in the background and see what they were talking about, what they were posting, what kind of information was important to them. He actually talked about a situation where a KOL had asked a question or said that they were having a difficult time finding a certain study, finding certain information. And he jumped in and said, oh, hey, doctor so and so. You know, here's a link to that information, which opened up a door for him.
So that being a problem solver and being able to identify opportunities to help out or to show your expertise, I think, is definitely another way to utilize these platforms provided that your company allows you to do so. Like you said before, some companies don't allow you engage. I think in this day and age, I think it's become more commonplace to engage depending on I guess there's probably rules of engagement that each company has, so you have to follow that.
But I think that there's so many practical applications for how and how you can use social media, and how often, just depending on your situation. But I think it's a mistake if you don't allocate a certain amount of time each week, maybe not each day. But each week, I think you need to allocate a certain amount of time professionally to be active on social media. And by active, I mean, you might just be a listener and spend some time on there.
Or if you are able to, put some postings out there, show your expertise, show your brand, and get yourself out there. So do you agree with that? I agree. I don't see how even legally a company could say, you cannot be personally active in social media. Obviously, that would be that would not be possible.
And, even in terms of not, advertising the fact that I'm working for, let's say, AstraZeneca, I don't see how a company would say, you cannot You you probably have to say my tweets are my own on right? I mean, my posting and my own opinion. I'm not representing any company when I'm talking. But but saying that I'm at ASCO, who wants to meet? Right? I I don't see a lot of people. About that. That's right. That's right. Or even, even social talk.
If I say, hey, doctor Suwakso, wonderful that you'll be at ASCO. I'm looking forward to say hi. What part of that could be noncompliant? I'm not talking about product. Right. I'm not I'm not talking about any data. It's a social interaction. And so I I and it's very vulnerable. It it's part of a human connection between people. MSLs are in the human business, not just in the data business.
So I I think it's, I think the the the the the the rules are gonna continue to be defined, but I really like to encourage MSLs and head of MSLs and directors to try to push toward being more progressive and more accepting of engagement. Also, it makes things more fun Yeah. For everybody.
I mean, you know, it it it it's not it's not fun to sit at home and and wait for the phone call or call someone and And so when you engage in your industry, you contribute socially and with knowledge and with just branding and with sharing your excitement about going to that conference or meeting your colleague. You're part of an industry. It's more fun. And and and that's what social media makes. It gets us closer as as an industry. Absolutely.
You know, you bring up and that brings up the point of how you're developing your career. This isn't just what you're doing with inside your role as an MSL, but it's also what you're doing to develop your career because there's an this investment into social media. Let's say LinkedIn, for example.
The more connections that you develop on LinkedIn, the more really good content that you put out there on LinkedIn, the more you build your brand, the better case you make for the future of your career.
So for example, if you right now are a brand new MSL or you've been an MSL for a couple years, or you're looking to become an MSL, and you do a really good job in branding yourself, let's say in a certain therapeutic area, a certain expertise or whatever it might be, well, that's gonna help solidify your chances of getting your next job or getting your promotion, whatever that might be.
It's and you put it in a very positive way as you should, that will be my warm, warm advice to anybody in that career. Project yourself out there. Invest. Because also, I mean, you stay with a company, what, on average now? 2 years, 3 years, 4 years? Yeah. Okay. So you're not gonna get served with that company all the time. If people don't know you, it's gonna be harder and harder each time you shift to find the right fit for you.
And, also, all the relationships that you build while working for a company, they belong to you. Right. They belong to you. Yeah. I know some of the data stays in the Veeva. Right? Customer relationship management database. I understand. But everything else, all the relationship you have with KOLs, you're you're connected with them on LinkedIn. They for you they follow you back maybe, who knows, on Twitter. That's an asset you built during your 3 years in that company. Absolutely.
Why not bring that asset with you, with a new company? Absolutely legal. Absolutely ethical. It'll be ethical. Unethical not to allow that, actually. So I I I really think it's a wonderful habit to build. Well, it's so funny, Shits. I was just about to say, this absolutely is a habit. This is something that I would recommend. Don't just say, okay. Once a month, I'm gonna go on to LinkedIn, and I'm gonna do some research. I'm gonna build up my network, or I'm gonna post a couple things.
Going into right now, I believe this episode is gonna air in the very, very beginning of 2023. So now is the perfect time to say, I'm gonna create a habit where every day, I'm gonna go on to LinkedIn for 15 minutes a day, 30 minutes a day, or maybe it's, you know, maybe it's an hour per week, and it's 10 minutes a day, 5 days, whatever. Figure out a cadence.
And then get on there each day or each week and be active to build up your community and your brand by establishing a certain establishing a routine of sending out a certain number of invitations to people, sending out a certain number of posts, that sort of thing, because that's how you build it up over time. If you try to do it all in one sitting, you're not gonna get the same bang out of it. That would be my advice.
It's like saying, I'm gonna wait until Friday evening to enter into Veeva or any CRM. Right. All my my conversation during the week, it never happened. 1st, I forget. 2nd, it's not a habit. Right. So you're right. I even would argue that once a day is the right pace. And, and you cannot do that unless you do it on your phone. I mean, I don't think so. I think the idea is that you do it on your phone. You're you're waiting at the grocery line or in an elevator.
Check what's going on with on Twitter or on when there's a lot of non business things happening that you'd be interested in, sends you notification about what's happening here and there. So I think it has to be mobile to be an easy habit to do to do every day. And initially, it's hard because you don't know anybody. But then you have 2 or 3 friends, and it becomes fun. And after a while, it becomes a healthy, I would argue, addiction.
And it takes no time because all of these little 5 minutes in your day, you reclaim they them. Right? It's not like you sit down to do the Twitter or to do the your your LinkedIn work. That would be work. But if you're in an elevator, well, you, of course, go look at your phone and check the tweets and check the the the the LinkedIn and get a notification to respond to this. And and then and then it it fills in all of these little times in your day. Yeah. Oh, that's that's me. Yeah. That's me.
I get yelled at. My wife yells at me. She's like, would you put your phone down? But, you know, but but here's here's something I wanna add to that. You know, it's in those short little spit stints when you're sitting there and you're in line at the checkout at the grocery store or whatever, and you're kinda, like, bored and you look at your phone, you're on LinkedIn, or you're on Twitter, whatever. Likes, comments, shares, that's engagement. That's engage that's a part of the whole thing.
It takes 2 seconds. And a lot of these algorithm because ultimately, not to be dramatic, but we're already working for the algorithm. Yeah. The algorithm rewards us or not based on whether we follow the rules that they want us to follow. And the rule of the algorithm, that's the important thing to understand. The algorithm makes money by selling advertisement, meaning by having engagement.
And sometimes the negative of that is that the the algorithm understood, very smart, the best way to get engagement is to get controversy, to get people to fight. So the algorithm makes us fight. Yeah. That sounds a scary thought. There's a bit of that happening politically sometimes. Right? Yeah. It encourages controversy, negative engagement even. Now in our industry, it's mostly constructive, positive engagement, hopefully. Right?
Yeah. But but, but if you just like someone's post or just say bravo or thumbs up, you help them. You have their profile. You validate their situation. You help them grow their profile. They have objectives in also growing their their presence. It takes you nothing. Right? You just it's just a a little like, a fraction of a second to type, and and you have them. You connect with them, and so now you have connection with a lot of people. I might be talking for a few minutes.
It's many a few minutes a month with someone by a few likes, a few comments, but we're friends. Now it's not the same quality of friendship as someone I would have coffee with every week, obviously. But it is remarkably meaningful at the human level. Absolutely. That's incredible. When you think about it, right, a few minutes, you can have lighter, but still very meaningful engagement with a much, much broader, group of people, thanks to technology.
Yep. And if there's anyone out there listening to this, and you're new, and and you're looking to build up connections, or you you're if you're in the industry, send me a connection request. I guarantee I'll say yes. I'm not gonna turn you away. Same here. Actually, earlier in my LinkedIn career, I was, what's called a Lion, a LinkedIn Open Networker.
Yep. And the way that system works is that you advertise that you're a Lion, a LinkedIn Open Networker, in your profile, and what that means is that anybody can reach out to you to ask to be connected. You don't need to say yes, but you never tag them as I don't know them. Because if you tag them as I don't know them, the algorithm might punish them Right. For reaching out. Yeah. And and that way, I build a network. I maxed on my network, so I'm at 30,000.
And every 6 months, I need to remove people that I'm not engaging with to add more. So even if you're interested in more aggressively building your profile, you could designate yourself other line. Check it out, read read the rules, do it right. Yeah. But, I I think it's it's, it's okay to be to to be in a hurry to build a network, and there's so much value in it. No doubt. And one last thing for me, guys.
I could tell you, just be mindful of your image and your brand and just make sure you know what you want. And what I mean by that is I try to tell people, let's just say you're, you're looking to be an MSL or you are an you are an MSL right now. Well, your photo should indicate that. So if you currently have a photo of yourself and you're in a cap and gown, you know what that tells me? That tells me you're a student. You look like a student. You don't look like an MSL.
If you wanna be an MSL, get a professional headshot taken in a in a professional attire in in a suit. If you're in a lab coat, you look like a clinician. Now if you if you want to look like a clinician because that's what you do, and that's what you wanna do. And if that's the image you're looking to portray, that's totally fine. But if you're looking to be something else, try to portray yourself as that something else. That's that's an excellent advice.
I, I I have that problem a little bit, by the way, because in my case, I have 2 companies Mhmm. In 2 completely different areas. 1, of course, is, you know, medical affairs and pharma SaaS company. Yep. And the other company is a web 3 crypto business. Completely different persona, style, etcetera, etcetera. So my online presence can be a little bit confusing because of that. I don't have quite the choice because I decided to do both in parallel.
But someone early in their career, usually, they have one persona, they have one objective. They should probably. And so your advice is extremely a good one, I believe. Well, and and, you know, again, like, there there are certain things that, you know, like in certain in a lot of situations, it's a judgment call. Right? In your situation, you actually, I love your photo because you have the the VR headset on. Because when I think of you, I think of Bruno. I think of the metaverse. Right?
So that that's the perfect image in my mind for you. But sometimes, I see pictures. They like, people have photos of them and their dog. Like, that's that's for Facebook. That's not for LinkedIn. And for those of you guys that aren't watching on YouTube right now, Bruno just put his headset on. He's got his VR headset on. That's how I think of this guy.
I'm believing you, but I'm looking around me, and I see a beautiful lake, in the my metaverse office through that big, big window in my metaverse office. So Well, listen, guys. At some point in time, we're gonna do this podcast completely in the metaverse. We're all gonna be in the metaverse, and we're gonna do it that way. So it's a little premature for that. But, Bruno, I wanna thank you for coming on. Any last words for these guys?
Oh, I I love, joining, your podcast, and I think you have a wonderful community that you build every year, every quarter a little bit stronger. And that's a great inspiration for me, actually. So thank you. Awesome. And you know what? In the spirit of Bruno Larbelle, I wanna thank everybody that's listening in France. We have great listenership in France. So thank you all for listening. Hey, guys. Have an awesome year. It's 2023. We're gonna crush it. I believe in you guys.
I know you're gonna have an awesome year. So just wanna wish you all the best. And, Bruno, thank you so much for coming on. You're awesome, my friend. Thank you very much, Tom. Goodbye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.