Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. I have a very special repeat guest. You guys know him and love him. Paul Ward, welcome back to the show. How are you, buddy? Tom, I'm great. Thanks for having me back. Always a pleasure to be with you. Dude, you're you're a fan favorite, man. People guys, just so you know, Paul's done this with me a couple of times. I'd like to I I like to make sure I invite him back regularly. But if I could, I would have him here every week. That's how good this guy is.
So I'm excited. You're too kind. I I was just repeating a couple stories from some of our previous podcast about the what do I do on Monday and some of those things that stick with you. So, I I I love it, and I need to thank you on behalf of all of us in Field Medical for the great work that you do bringing these podcasts to us. I told you so many times, but bears repeating. Like like, this is my gym time. This is my pot you know, when I'm walking walking the dog or on the treadmill.
It's just so convenient, and I learned so much from it. You've done such a service to the community. I wanna thank you. Well, I I couldn't I could never have done this for the five years and two hundred and fifty something episodes without amazing medical affairs leaders like you. So I am grateful for every single one of these, and I'm grateful for our sponsors too. So we do have a sponsor for this episode, our dear friends at Medical Watch.
So if you guys are not familiar with Medical Watch, they will help you understand what HCPs are saying about your products and diseases on social media. It's really important tool. Free sign up at medical.watch. I would encourage you guys to check this out. Really, really important. If you're in medical affairs, you need to sign up for medical watch. Just go to medical.watch.
And, you know, so this episode, we're gonna be talking about how medical affairs professionals should engage with digital opinion leaders or DOL. So it all kinda ties in all sorta ties in with our sponsor. So, Paul, let's jump into it. Sure. This is a pretty hot topic, the DOL topic. Can you explain what a digital opinion leader is, and and how does that differ from, like, a traditional KOL? Happy to.
Let me make just a couple disclaimers before we get going, and it's right in line with what you just said about our sponsor. First of all, I am not an expert in digital opinion leadership. This is something that came my way. And like most of us in medical affairs and particularly in the leadership level, I'm having to learn as we go as to how do we interact, how do I identify what the right things to do. So you'll hear throughout some of my comments.
I mean, I really do think that these third parties, like our sponsor today, can be of tremendous value in helping us all learn, identify, and interact. So really super good timing there. So, you know, the others are these views are mine and mine alone, and they do not express the the the the opinions of b one medicine where I am currently employed and plan on being employed for a long time as long as they'll have me having a great time here. So my opinions are mine, and I look forward to it.
So when you think about the digital opinion leader, it's a digital first mentality. Like, we we we've medical has historically been very active with key opinion leaders that are mostly on the on the academic side. Right? And we've had to evolve. We've seen that evolve into more nurse practitioners and and PharmBs and and PAs, and we've we've had to adopt and even into community as you've seen the the the role of medical evolve. So the digital opinion leader, very different.
They can be key opinion leaders in a traditional key, academic institution, but more often than not, they're not. They only about 20% overlap there from what we would consider a a a traditional KOL and these digital opinion leaders. But their presence is really on websites, online forums, podcasts like this, and specialty sites like Doximity and Twitter or X and the like. And so the Internet has really leveled the playing field in terms of how information gets disseminated.
They have a huge influence with patients and advocacy groups and caregivers. We have to be mindful of medical. Like, it's not just other physicians that they're talking to, although that's certainly a big part of the of what we're doing and how we engage.
And so the other thing about the Internet and the way that they're able to disseminate the knowledge and information, be it good or bad, disseminates much more quickly in this universe than it does through a peer reviewed journal or a congress where you're waiting months and has editorial boards and and and others that are looking at data. So there's a lot to keep in mind, and we're gonna dig into that, I suspect, here in a bit. You know, they can be very compelling.
And I think, you know, both HCPs and and and patients alike like this channel because it cuts to a lot of the noise. Like, for patients, what I've heard and when when when we're looking for information and and scouring the landscape, there's no jargon.
Like, these guys know how to get patient and and communicate with patients just like they do in their practice without all the medical jargon, if you will, that traditional KOLs have that patients sometimes don't understand or have to grab somebody in the industry or a family member that's trained to really disseminate that information and distill it into bite sized chunks that they can understand. So really different than a key opinion leader.
Yeah. And I I appreciate that explanation because I think we hear the term. A lot of people hear the term, and you think you kinda know what it is. But that's a really good explanation, and I think it sets the tone for what we're gonna talk about, which it leads me. It kinda answers the next question to to an extent. But, so why has engaging with d l DOLs become such an important part of medical affairs strategy? And I think you covered some of this, but I'd like to hear from you.
Yeah. There's I think there's more layers to that. Great question, Tom. So, you know, I think part of it is if you really think the essence of what medical affairs does is we help educate HCPs. We understand the landscape. Digital opinion leaders can you know, they need education too. So I think that's the obvious piece. And it improves patient care. I mean, all of us are in medical for one reason or the other. You know, you've seen a lot of surveys and talk to people about this.
More often than not, why are you in medical affairs? Why are you doing what you're doing? It all comes back to improving patient care. And so if digital opinion leaders are having an impact, in in in that area, then most certainly medical should, and almost has a responsibility to engage with these, digital opinion leaders.
I think the other thing is, you know, there's a rush to be fast in this world sometimes, and there's a lot of misinformation that can be disseminated, maybe maybe to be controversial or maybe just because of the rush to be first. You know, some of these digital opinion leaders don't fully understand the dataset before they're making comments about that. And we'll talk about motivation, I'm sure, during the podcast. But I think all of those are are are very important reasons for us to engage.
And, again, depending upon your therapeutic area, you you you know I happen to be in oncology and hematology, a lot of patients actually develop support networks as a result of listening and and engaging on some of these sites and and and and different, you know, channels to to to learn about their disease and and and what their next step should be. So, certainly, we've got a lot to learn about this.
I think pharma's behind a lot of other industries in understanding this space, but we're catching up quickly. Yep. And what would you say so what are some of the characteristics or behaviors, let's call it, that medical affairs team should look for when identifying DOLs in in their therapeutic area, in their space. Yeah. Not surprising to anybody on the podcast is gonna be credentials. Like, you you need to look for academic credentials to to give the any bearing.
I mean, any of us can have an opinion. Right? But they should, you know, certainly be we would prefer these opinions be for people that are well trained and well versed in the in the therapeutic area that they're commenting around. And I think by and large, they are. But, again, you know, third parties like our sponsor can can help channel and filter some of those characteristics through that. I think the other things to looks look for, who are their followership? And are they other physicians?
Are they patients? Are they advocate advocacy groups? Are they, you know, CBS News or, you know, whatever your favorite news media outlet is? All of these things are, I think, extremely important. I think another characteristics to to pay attention to is frequency. How often are they engaging in this way?
Is it just around congress time, or are these people like yourself that have a podcast that's on a regular cadence that patients and physicians can really tap into and learn from on a on a on a regular basis. And I think just like you're talking to somebody in a in a congress or in a social situation, what's the extremeness of their views? Right? I mean, we live in a day and age where extreme becomes almost the norm. Right? I mean, it it it's just hard.
And so are these people really out there just to create controversy and increase their their viewership and and and followership because of some extreme views? Because let's face it, extreme views get the headlines sometimes. Or are they really looking to disseminate information in a in a in a more responsible way to to to care for for patients? And then I think something that's extremely important for us to think about as a characteristic is what are their needs?
Do they wanna engage with pharma? There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of anti pharma and biotech sentiment that exists out there, and some people just wanna really poke the bear of it. It'd be hard for a medical affairs team member or field medical person in particular to engage with someone like that if they don't wanna engage and if they're one of their purpose to to do the podcast is to stir the pot.
So I think being mindful of all of that before you engage is is certainly something that we should all pay attention to. Yeah. You know, as you're as you're talking, it just it's a reminder that when you're looking at an online personality or brand, they're all unique in and of themselves. There's there's some good actors. There's some bad actors. There's controversial actors. So you really do it it becomes a process of vetting just like anything else.
Yeah. And, you know, some of it, there might be an entertainment fact. Like you said, there might actually just be an entertainment factor to it. So it's a matter of kinda really deciphering. Let's talk about, like, these platforms or tools for finding and assessing DOLs. Can you recommend any specific platforms? Well, our sponsor certainly, you know, is is is one of the better ones. There there's a bunch of them out there.
I I don't think a week goes by where I'm not either through LinkedIn or through my email, someone reaching out to me to to help me navigate the digital opinion leader, water. So it's certainly out there. It's been it's been really interesting, Tom, for me to watch how this has evolved. It's evolved into a very specific skill set in science and experts in this area.
Whereas even three, four years ago when we first started hearing about all of this, it seemed that, at least on my teams, there was always seem to be one person on the team that was really tech savvy and social media savvy who kinda took it upon his or herself to educate the rest of the team. And, at that time, it was Twitter and creating Twitter deck. And and and sometimes people would leave those calls thinking, what is what is this person thinking? I mean, this is crazy.
This is not how we do things in medical affairs. Right? And now, it's it really is a big part of how we do things in medical affairs. So that's that's been, that's been, you know, an evolution. And then, you know, you look at, you know, look at Doximity. You look at all the all the you whatever your favorite or least favorite social media outlet is. And, you know, I I I I see things on Spotify all the time on on this. YouTube is very active where with posting.
And then, you know, honestly, at congresses now, you see a lot of the top posters. And when I say posters, I mean people that post, information or that tweet information, during the congress using hashtag ASCO or ASH or whatever congress you're at. And you see when you walk around sometimes, they'll even have a leaderboard. So it encourages the behavior a little bit.
I think it's a really interesting mix of a traditional way to receive and disseminate information at a congress like American Heart or ASCO or, you know, what whatever therapeutic area that you're in, that they're looking to say, hey. We know that people are posting about this, and some of them already been at the congress. Some of them can be watching the congress virtually, but yet they're using the hashtag and posting and capturing their comments in that way.
So that that's been, I think, super interesting. I don't know. You how how are you looking at this stuff? I mean, you you keep abreast of digital opinion leaders. Any any particular tools that you're using or that you use as a as an entrepreneur? Yeah. Well, I could tell you that, first of all, we are in a time of digital relevancy, meaning you have to be digitally savvy. Yeah. You you just have to be.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, a business owner, recruiter, a med an MSL, a medical affairs leader, anybody that's listening to this, we are in a time where you need to be digitally savvy. I I personally think that it's it's important to be diversified in your approach, but find because here's the thing. You need to be where your customers are. Yep. You you need to meet your customers where they live. That's actually a quote from somebody that was on this podcast.
Shout out to Jason DeMuth, who we were talking actually about DOLs. And you don't know what platform of choice might be for your main customers. It may be it may be Twitter. It may it may be YouTube. It might be LinkedIn. There's so many you mentioned a bunch of them. There's so many different platforms now to pay attention to. One of the things that I would recommend is go back. I did a podcast on social listening recently. And definitely check out Medical Watch because that's what they do.
They're gonna give you this information, and you're gonna be able to find it. So you don't have to curate it yourself. So that's one really good hack. But you need to be in the right place, finding the right information, learning what you can, and then utilizing that strategically. It's such a good point you bring up, Tom. And let's face it. Chances are to be digital savvy means you have to probably be up more than one digital platform at a time too.
We we and who who amongst us has time to keep track of all of those, which is why Medical Watch and and and and people like that are so really beneficial in this space to do that work for you so you can see the output of it rather than spending hours of your time, you know, bopping from from one platform to the next seeing what's happening. So, yeah, they're providing a great service for us that that have, certainly this is part of their job, but not the main component of our job in medical.
Yeah. And what do you see as as the the biggest mistakes that medical affairs professionals are making, when trying to engage with DOLs? Or is it is one of the biggest mistakes not engaging? Yeah. I think that's the biggest one. It's ignoring the opportunity and the influence that that digital opinion leaders have. It's it's it's and it's reaching airways and and and public and private, you know, listeners that that are really hard.
I think there's several other things that that that I've seen as this has evolved too. Medical is not the only one watching this space. Right? So we all have to learn the ways of working with our own company, and that includes looking at internally with let's face it. There's a lot of compliance rules around how you engage. What materials do you use to engage? How do you speak to these folks? Marketing is in this space too. Right?
Because they've got a brand, and they're working on brand awareness. They've got a digital strategy. Corporate comms or corporate communications has a has a strategy, and Olive Farm is trying to figure out an omnichannel strategy. Right? I mean, we've all heard about omnichannel. Frequently talked about seldom understood by most of us, but it's it's certainly a big a big part of budgets now in medical and marketing and and the rest.
And then, again, you know, there's different digital opinion leaders for different purposes. Some are educators. Some are more on the advocacy side. Some are more geared towards reviewing, you know, academic publications and things of that nature. So I think that's a that that's something to be mindful of. And, also, when you're and you you know this better than I. When you're working as a digital savvy professional, your needs are different.
I mean, you need you need information that is easily distilled and easily communicated. It's, you know, sending sending a digital opinion leader a 50 slide deck presentation on your brand or on your data is probably not the best way to to meet his or her needs in terms of how they're gonna be disseminating and communicating, you know, that that information. And then, yeah, I think the other thing too is this is such a rapidly evolving space. You You're gonna review this a lot.
And, again, more more reason to use medical watch or vendors like them to keep abreast of this because it's changing, you know, not not on a yearly basis, but, you know, only almost monthly to monthly, there's there there there are new players that are that are popping in. And then I think, again, ignoring misinformation. I mean, there's so much misinformation that that is out there that needs to be corrected.
And, again, if in medical, if we hear for the betterment of patient care, we owe it to our patients that we serve to make sure that misinformation gets corrected as quickly as possible, either either through the person or persons that portrayed that information inaccurately or by on on our own just to make sure that that's that that's getting out there. So I think those are the biggest mistakes. Mhmm. I've certainly made a few of them. So I'm speaking a bit from from experience here, Tom.
But, yeah, I I I think that covers the the the majority of what I could think of anyway. Yeah. And I'll add that, and I don't know how much this ties into it. But I think one of the and maybe it's a mistake or maybe it's a little underplayed is not utilizing AI tools enough. I think everybody's kinda dabbling and trying to figure out their way, whether it's ChatGPT, Copilot.
There are some strategic initiatives from the from organizations that are, you know, starting to really introduce AI tools in practical, you know, applications for the day to day.
But I think that not embracing it and not utilizing it, especially as it relates to understanding your KOLs or DOLs or finding you know, putting the information together, I think, is a mistake because I really feel like there's so many really awesome AI tools out there that can help cut down on the amount of time it takes to do some of this stuff. Yep. It's it's a great it's it's a wonderful point that you make.
And I think the other, you know, consideration here is that what digital opinion leaders are putting out there in terms of content in an open source AI model is going to get picked up by artificial intelligence. Right? Right. It is it actually that magnifies the effects of information or misinformation that they may be creating?
%. Yeah. Which leads me to like, because this is the key question here is how should an MSL or a medical affairs professional authentically approach a DOL for the first time? I touched on it, just a minute ago. First, understand the landscape and the rules of engagement with your company and figure out who else is in this space. And, of course, you know, compliance is always on the forefront of our mind too. So understand the rules of engagement before you engage.
I think that's underscored big bold letters with flashing lights, underscored in yellow. Okay? That's gotta be the first step is understand that. And then, you know, you need to understand the motivations. You know, almost like a key opinion leader interaction. You wouldn't go in there cold. You wouldn't go in there and just start asking questions. You would have to understand the KOL.
MSLs are so very good at, what are their research interests, what are their publications, where where are they speaking, all of that, and and just the digital equivalent of that. What have they posted? What's been their motivations? What's been the tone of the again, are they provocateurs, or are they medical education? Are they more patient friendly and focused? I think I think all of that is interesting.
I think the other thing that occurs to me is, you know, most academics, when you go in and say that you're a medical science liaison, they know what that means, and they know how to engage with you. Digital opinion leaders probably have very little oftentimes idea what an MSL does. Are you from sales? Are you from marketing? Are you market access? Are you corporate communication?
So explaining who you are, where you sit in the organization, and what your goals are, I think will build some credibility. And you used a great word too that I had, I had thought of immediately too, which is authentic. Be your authentic medical self. Right? I think I think that really buys you some credibility. You're not there to to, you know, basically expand the brand or grow market share, but you're there to make sure that information is correct and and and understood.
And that people can make their own informed decisions and say what they like afterwards, but with knowledge and facts at the at the basis of, you know, what they're doing. And then I think, you know, I'm not a digital opinion leader. Don't play one on TV, but I would imagine that most of them want to have independence. Like, they don't wanna be a shrill for a company.
They're doing this for for reasons, not aligned with marketing your brand or or or or, you know, working for a pharmaceutical company. So understand that they need to be seen and addressed as, unbiased and independent thinkers just like you would a key opinion leader. And so do your homework, understand motivations, you know, look look at where they went to school. You know? All all of that is extremely important.
And I'm guessing most of these folks, given that they're digital savvy, you can find a lot of this online pretty easily because they are used to posting and and communicating through that vehicle. So utilize that to your advantage. Oh, yeah. And that that's I think that's mandatory as as really the guiding light of of how you should at least start and and gain an understanding before you engage.
But everything you say and and the reason I use the word authentic is because in this day and age, I think that works. I think people respond to authenticity, way more now because we are in this digital space and everybody's out there, and it's so important to have your own brand and and to carry it well and be confident. But the thing that I worry about and let's talk about engagement.
And what types of content or interactions are appropriate or inappropriate for MSLs when they engage with DOLs online? Yeah. I think and, again, it's it's really important to understand rules of engagement. And, you know, you you you know how MSLs usually have things that are approved for training Mhmm. Or showing or for dissemination.
And it's important to know what bucket you're in because, look, these things could end up like, when you work with a KOL, something might might end up on a screen at a at a congress. When you're working with a digital opinion leader, it could get end up on YouTube. Right? And so you certainly don't want your compliance officer waking up to something that's not approved for use with a digital opinion leader on on a very public forum. So be extremely mindful of that.
And, again, I think for content, I think, you know, conversation first. I I I would say that it's really good to get to know someone before you bring out the slide deck and start showing data at Kaplan Meier curves or adverse event tables. You you gotta get to know them, and and partner with them and understand those motivations first. And then, you know, medical leadership.
You know, I I think you have to make sure that everybody within your chain of command and and and in other areas are on board with what you're doing. So don't make it a secret mission. Make it a very public mission that you're going to be engaging and let medical, you know, medical affairs leadership know marketing understand that you're in there. Work with comms. Because this person might be engaging with three or four people in your company, and you may not even be aware of it. Right?
There's there's a lot of people fighting for for time there, but I think medical really deserves a spot towards the front of that line with the with the content and with the with the information that we have to share in the unbiased way that we that we engage. Yeah. And and let's talk about some guardrails. I'm sure there's gotta be best practices for companies, and there's gotta be stuff that's already in place for DOL engagement to make sure that MSLs are staying safe in their engagement.
Can you talk a little bit about those? Yeah. Maybe, and maybe this is just, me me being a little slow to the party, Tom. I don't know. But, you know, I was mentioning I was at a a internal meeting this week, and I sat next to our, executive director of scientific communications. And one of the things that we were chatting about, over coffee was how we need as an organization to better understand the motivations and what these folks want.
So we're talking about doing a digital opinion leader, virtual asynchronous ad board to understand those kinds of things. So, I'm sure that there are companies that are that are further along and probably several that are not as far along. We're probably right in the middle. But we certainly recognize the need to better understand this space. And, you know, I think I think something in terms of guardrails, just, you know, use your emotional intelligence and and and seek first to understand.
And and and that's why I think, you know, conversation first is so important here. I think I think the guardrails that you wanna avoid are just going in there and being viewed as, you know, someone that's doesn't understand what what they're doing and their content and what's happening and and trying to force a narrative or, you know, tools on them that they may or may not need.
So that I think it's just basic good manners and it'll look common sense, mixed in with some emotional intelligence, and then underscore again in bright lights that know the landscape of your company and and who else may be engaging with them. And if you get all that right, I think you're on pretty safe ground, but be you know, tread carefully because that could change at any moment. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And, you know, I'm curious. This isn't the first episode that I've done on on DOLs.
But since I've been doing this, things have changed and evolved so much. And this digital world has just expanded, and we talked a lot about that earlier. And, where do you see it going? Like, what happens in the next, like, three to five years? Well, I think you can go up. Let let's approach that first from I think companies are gonna invest more in this space. I think everyone recognizes that, you you know, your previous guest had it right. My my grandfather would say fish where the fish are.
Right? You gotta be where where where where people or fish in that case are congregated. Throwing your throwing the line in a in a pond that has no fish in it does not yield good results. So we understand there's a lot of fish right now, and there's a lot of different ponds to go exploring, in them. So or or looking for them. And so that I think I think that's really important and understand that investment usually follows opportunity, and pharma is figuring this out, so watch that space.
I also think that, you know, FDA is watching this space very carefully. And so from a regulatory standpoint, I think we're gonna see more and more guardrails on on what gets posted and maybe even you know? And I mentioned earlier the amount of misinformation. CBS News was saying there's more misinformation than valid information on the Internet, and that doesn't surprise many of us. So what what can we do as a as a government, you know, as taxpayers?
What can our government do for us to try to clean that up a bit? Right? No one wants this information that's out there. It's it doesn't help anyone. And and then I think too, I think consumers will become more savvy. And by consumers, I mean patients and caregivers and health care authorities. Like, you need to know the source. You need to check the source out. Be aware of their credentials. You know? Caveat emptor, buyer beware, on on what you're consuming.
And you got big decisions to make on your health. You better be very careful. It's funny to me sometimes people read labels in the grocery store, but then they'll be quoting stuff they heard on the Internet to me. And I'm like, you have no idea who that person was, but you know every chemical in your in your dairy creamer that goes in your coffee. Right? And so I think we need to be mindful of both. Let's put some of those practices into place.
So more investment, more regulation, more savviness, and then let's just be prepared for digital and and and and other, you know, channels to increase in their likelihood, of of impact and influence. It's only gonna grow. It's I don't see it shrinking. How about you? Yeah. No. And it's so funny you talk about the misinformation piece because in one sense, we're staying saying get out there and and listen and and be savvy and and all these things.
And then and then we're like, but make sure you make sure you know what you're what you're what you're you're learning. Make sure that that you're you're you get this accuracy of information. And I think that that it it really does require the individual, to be super thorough in, in their process.
I think that this this really requires it it and I I don't wanna keep using the word savviness, but I think you do have to use discernment when you're out there and you're curating the information and how you're going to use it and just to be super careful and double and triple check.
But I do think that the good news is that there are a lot of reputable sources, tools, like we've talked about throughout this episode, that can help you with this, to keep you on track and to make sure that you're that you're not, you know, making any mistakes. Yep. I think you're right. And, you know, the other the other I only think it's interesting. Whenever I see anything posted, the comments are always so interesting too.
And I think part of saddiness is looking at what's the reaction to the data that you're seeing on a digital, you know, channel. What what are people saying about it, and who are those folks? Like, oftentimes, you'll see physicians correcting other physicians or other patients that are weighing in on information. So don't just read the headline. Dig into the comments and really educate on the response.
And if the response is not, overly favorable, be super super critical yourself as to what you're how you're processing it, and look for those credentials on the comment sections too. Yeah. That's great advice. What would you say so last question. What would you say to somebody if there's, like, one thing you could say to somebody that's like, hey. I listened to this podcast.
I gotta do a better job with with, you know, with my DOLs, and I gotta get out there and start, you know, becoming a digital first MSL. What would what would be the one piece of advice you would have for that person? Yeah. I I you know, I think as a first step and the first piece of advice is get some help here. I mean, we talked about how many channels there are and how much none of us can do this alone. So Medical Watch, thank you for sponsoring.
I think, you know, trying to do this without a without a third party to guide you is a little bit trying to navigate the Internet without a search engine. I mean, I think you're it's almost malpractice to begin it without some professional help at this point in time. And then partner with them because, you know, the the the third parties are oftentimes way ahead of us in pharma as to where this is going.
And as we talked about at the beginning of the podcast, they've got time and expertise to do it. This is no longer something you can do as a hobby or a pet project or have that one person on the team that's, you know, looking out for digital opinion leaders and filling us in in the five minutes at the end of the team call.
This is big, big, big, big responsibility for medical to get right, and for all the reasons that we've talked about, not to do it wrong and to understand the scope and influence that, digital opinion leaders have. So I think that's how I would, answer your question. Let's leave it there, man. That's it. I I totally agree that we that digital is here. Maybe you need to embrace it and and just jump in, man.
And I think you're gonna you're gonna be able to stay with the curve because it's not going anywhere. So, Paul, as always, you're the best, brother. I really appreciate you coming on. And this this again, this was, like, the fastest, like, I don't know, thirty, forty minutes of my entire week talking to you, brother. Well, I look forward to seeing you soon, and, I'll be, you know, doing all the summer circuits like you will bump into each other soon. Always look forward to it.
And, again, thanks for your great work educating all of us in field medical on all these topics. It's, it's just super. Keep it up, Tom. Thanks, Paul. Appreciate you. I'll see you at ASCO. Alright. Look forward to it. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, guys. Appreciate all your support. And, if you got value in this, please share this with others. And, we'll see you next time.