Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Lana Lucidi. She is a medical science liaison with Topcon Health, and we talk about how it's possible to land an MSO role without a doctorate. I know a lot of you people have been asking about this topic for a long time, so and you're not gonna be disappointed because Lana is awesome in this episode. You guys are gonna love it.
So don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn, and please check us out on MSL Talk Live, which is typically the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. You'll have to check out those announcements on LinkedIn. So thank you guys for all your support of the show. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Lana. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here. Thank you, Tom. I'm happy to be here. Yeah. So, guys, really exciting.
This is a this is an episode that Lana brought to me. She was actually in our Aspire MSL coaching program, and she landed an MSL position soon after. And she did so, without a doctorate degree, which is, you know, kind of against the the norm in a in a lot of ways. So she came up with the idea of, hey. You know, how about I tell my story and and how I was able to to kinda pull this off. And, I think it's gonna be a great conversation, so I wanna share her story with you guys.
But before we do that, wanna Rhonda, why don't you do a quick intro? Sure. Thank you. I wanna start by saying the views that I expressed in this podcast are solely my own and they do not necessarily reflect in the opinions or the policies of my employer. So everything here is just for general informational purposes, the normal disclaimer that comes out. So, yeah, my background is biomedical engineering. I got a my bachelor's degree in biomedical engineering, got out of college.
What do you do with your life when you're biomedical engineer? I was living I live in Rochester, New York. So what do I do in Rochester, New York? I went to the University of Rochester and started as a technician there. And I was actually started in a in a neurobiology and anatomy lab, which was cool. Got to do some fun stuff with vestibular ocular reflex, but it was not something I was passionate about.
So looking for opportunities, and I wanna say that I think most of my journey as I was thinking about this and reflecting on this is the opportunities that I created for myself, and that opened up as I was creating them. So, you know, I started in the neurobiology lab, wasn't a good fit for me, so I started looking around. What does Rochester have? They have Bausch and Lomb. And I'm like, well, that's cool.
Bausch and Lomb optics, like, this is back in the early 2000, the world of optics, IOLs, contact lenses, all of the things. And that seemed neat, so I was like, well, how do I do something with optics in my degree? Working at the U of R, I made an appointment with the dean of the Institute of Optics and walked over, sat down with him, and I said, what can I do with my degree? I wanna get into something with the eye, with optics in the body.
And he goes, you need to go talk to David Williams over at the Center For Visual Science. Cool. Made an appointment with David Williams over at the Center For Visual Science, and he was the director of the Center For Visual Science at the U of R. Sat down in his office, and I said, this is what I wanna do. How do I go about doing that? How do I learn more? Who can I talk to?
And he goes, funny you should sit in my office today because we have a new investigator and she's looking to start a lab and she needs a lab tech, and I said, I'll take it. And he goes, wait a minute, you need to interview first.
I interviewed, I got the position, and I was able to be the lab tech in a brand new lab at the U of R and from there, I mean, my the private or the principal investigator that I worked with, she was amazing, became a huge mentor to me, opened up opportunities for me because I just kept asking for more.
You know, I was running the lab driving some of the research projects and as I was taking on more responsibility she just kept handing it to me and it got to the point I was in her lab for almost 10 years by the end of it she's even though I didn't have a doctorate she's letting me help write grants, I'm writing research papers, I wrote a book chapter, They gave me all of these opportunities and in all of that as well I got to work on and I took the the
opportunity to get into other aspects of the eye. So the lab I worked in was at the front of the eye, We're looking at cornea wound healing mechanics, but I also worked with other researchers on, retinal imaging. They were doing adaptive optics for retinal imaging, so we could see the individual photoreceptors more clearly.
I was because we are in the in or the Department of Ophthalmology, I can I come in and sit in cataract surgery and see what it is that cataract surgery is and how you do it and what's good about it, what's bad about it, and I just asked a ton of questions? And so that's how my career kind of progressed, and then I broke into industry in Bausch. Well, let's not let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. We'll get to it.
So so but but I think the whole point of the matter is, so you graduate with a degree in biomedical sciences or whatever it is, and then Mhmm. You wind up getting in onto the research side. So you become a research Yep. But you did so, and they're doing a lot of things that were probably, like, above what nor what might normally be assigned to you because you raised your hand and you asked and you were assertive and you put yourself in that those positions. Is that is that a fair assessment?
Exactly. Well, I put myself in those positions, but I also proved that I could be in those positions, if that makes sense. Right. That my mind I have the scientific I have the scientific mind. I have the inquisitiveness. I have, you know, just keep giving me more. Why? Why? Why? Right? As most MSLs and I've heard this so many times in all your podcasts, all the MSLs just keep asking why, and that's what I did. Yeah. And and, you know, think about so you went out and you were your own advocate.
You put yourself out there, and you you gained experience and transferable skills, which is the key. Like, that's the key to the whole piece. To the equation. Right? Because I said, well, how do I get an MSO job without experience, and how do I get people? You have to find a way to get the experience in some way, shape, or form. You did so let me let me ask you, when did you decide that you wanted to be an MSO, and how did you come about the whole position?
Yeah. Well, funny enough, so when I worked at the OR on all these research projects, Bausch and Lomb partnered with us very closely, and there was an MSL that would come into some of our research meetings, and he was the one we would hand abstracts to and all the things. And I remember at that time sitting there going, he's got a really cool gig. I'd love to be able to do that one day. And then, you know, life happens, and I started down different paths.
And as I was going through all of my different steps in my career, I kept kind of driving myself and it was probably subconsciously I feel for the most part. I kept driving myself back towards I wanna be on the research side. I love the science of it. I love working with people, you know, and then as I got into roles where I was so I ended up in surgical specialty roles where I was supporting doctors on training on, implanting various devices for the eye.
And so I love that aspect of it and as I'm standing in the operating room with them and, you know, giving them tips and tricks or in between patients, we'd start talking science and that's when I would light up. And I started realizing I'm like, okay, you know, maybe, like, the surgical specialty is awesome and I love being in the OR and I love working with the doctors, but I wanna do more on the research side. So that's when I was really like, okay, I wanna be an MSL.
I need to start working myself towards that direction. Awesome. So now I mean, makes sense. Right? I think a lot of people wind up in that same scenario where it's like, it comes to them, they learn about it, and then they're like, okay. This is what I wanna do. This is my dream job. How do I get my dream job? Right? So then they start to look into what it's gonna take to make that happen.
So for you, were you worried when you started to realize that, well, a lot of these job descriptions are asking for doctorates? Like, did it did you start to get freaked out that, oh, man, like, am I gonna be able to do this? I'm gonna say no and yes. Okay. And there's the reason why I put it in that direction. No because I am very much the personality where you tell me I can't do something and I'm gonna say watch me. That's just who I am.
I'm gonna say hold my beer, and I'm gonna go get it done. I don't know if we can put that on podcast. No. I'm not. No. I'm not. That's actually rivet. I'm gonna change the title of this, and it's gonna say hold my beer, hold my beer, hold my beer, hold my beer. I am the phone. I love that. Yes, because I knew it was gonna be a hurdle. This was this is and it was gonna be almost a high jump, if you will, that I had to get over in order to prove that I have the knowledge. Right?
So when you think about it, the MD, the PhD, the OD, the PharmD, they have the experience, but they get it really early in their career because they go through all of that extra schooling. I didn't do the extra schooling. I got all of the experience out in the workforce, and that's how I that's how I approached it. It's like, I can do everything the PhD does. I've done it. I've written grants. I've written papers. I just need somebody to talk to me.
Mhmm. So that's where, you know, and I for me, that was the biggest part of the high jump was how do I get somebody to talk to me. Yeah. And so bridging the gap on your own in the sense where you're gaining experience and you're developing the transferable skills, and you're using that to parlay into that first role. That's gonna get you noticed. Yep. Brilliant. I mean, it actually makes a lot of sense when you look at it that way.
And I think a lot of people are like, well, Tom, how do I you know, you leverage somehow relationships to get there Mhmm. Which is huge. Yeah. So go ahead. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Oh, no. No. But that that's exactly what I did. So from my roles in through industry and, yeah, my through my ophthalmic career, because like I said, I did surgical support. So I worked with MSLs in all of these ophthalmic companies. Right?
I got to know them, I got to learn a little bit more about what they were doing, I got to learn sales people, I got to learn VP's, and I made friends with all of them. And then as I started networking and growing my LinkedIn network, and that is such a huge thing to do, I made sure that when I would reach out to people, I would let them know what my value was. I would give them, hey, this is my background. This is what I've worked on. This is what I'm interested in. These are the people I know.
Mhmm. And I use that to open doors, and that's how I got that's how I started getting the conversations is, you know, yes, I don't have the PhD or the MD or the OD, but here's what I've done. Right. Here's my resume. Give me a call. And that's when I started getting calls. Well, so let me go back before that a second. Mhmm. Because so when you first decided that you wanted to take this route, what was, like, the first thing you did? Like, how did you get started in pursuing an MSO role?
So that's a great question. I wanna say the first thing I did was started looking at companies Mhmm. That would be more open to possibly having a master's level scientist Mhmm. As an MSL, because there are companies out there. You know, Europe, it's probably more. So if anyone wants to move to Europe, go ahead. Here in the States, it's not as frequent, but they are out there. And it's gonna take a little bit of leg work, but that's what I did.
I started, you know, looking around what types of companies, especially in ophthalmology, could I get into that would give me the opportunity as an MSL. And then it was just doing the research, you know. I started with the research, and then I started sending out feelers to my network. Hey. I saw this position at this company. Do you know anybody there that, you know, you could talk to on my behalf or that I could you could at least just say, hey, give them a call, that kind of deal.
And I just started doing that on top of, I guess, the secondary part of that would be just tailoring my LinkedIn profile to make sure that it had more of the key terms for MSLs, so that I would get more hits that way and be able to get more notifications of postings. Yeah. It's just funny. I'm kinda laughing, because, like, you're a researcher. The first thing you do is research. Right? You're like, okay. I'm gonna go do this other thing. What does a researcher do? You research.
And I think that that's actually a great lesson for anyone that's looking to start a new job is before I even get out there and start, I think what happens is people get so excited that they just start applying to positions. And I I think that's a mistake. I think you need to start with the research. You need to educate yourself first, and know what it is that you really need to do before you start doing it. So hopefully you save people some time with that recommendation. Right? I hope so.
Yeah. So when you you get yourself into this process. You're making some strides. So what did you face a lot of challenges? What were some of the frustrations and the things that came about while you were pursuing the position? Yeah. So going back to the, I just need somebody to talk to me, I think was probably the biggest challenge was, you know, because especially now with the way that resumes are being, you know, companies are being inundated with resumes.
And so they have algorithms that go through and, you know, how many hits on this resume or how many hits on this application have the keywords that we're looking for. And for some of them, you know, because PhD, MD, OD, the d degree, they were looking for that. And if I didn't have that hit, I would get overlooked regardless of having, you know, a laundry list of other keywords.
So that was probably the biggest frustration was, you know, sending out applications and not being able to hear anything back. But that's when I would unfortunately now, I think on LinkedIn, there's a lot with, like, the recruiters. They'll have the company recruiters will have their name on there or just going in and because I've built such a network in ophthalmology, I know people at all of the companies.
So I would look into the role, look into the position, look into the company, and then if it was something I was really passionate about, I would reach out to the people that I knew at the company. And then even as I would apply, I would send an introductory email to the recruiter, and I would do, you know, my cover letter there and say, this is who I am. This is what I can bring. This is all of my experience. Consider me.
Yep. And fortunately, that is when, you know, I would get a little wasn't a 100%, but I felt like it it gave me a little bit more, and that's when I would start getting some phone calls at least from from some of these companies for opportunities or just at least that first screening call.
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's a different time right now because I think it is actually in a lot of ways, it's more beneficial to be a job seeker now because there's a lot of, I'm gonna call them transparency laws that have come into being when it comes to salary and and contact information and how you're able to be contacted by companies. So it does benefit the job seeker, but it's also a difficult market. It's just a very competitive market. So what what other things worked for you?
Like, what other things would you say made a difference? How did you stand out? That's another great question. I wanna say it was just from the experiences. The opportunities that I and I don't know if it was dumb luck. Probably a little bit of dumb luck and a little bit of just my own perseverance. Right?
But the fact that I would every chance I got, whether it was, you know, early on in my academic career or later on in my industry career, every chance I got to learn more and do something more, I would. And then I would ask for more. And it would can I, you know, how do I engage with this thought leader? I would love to meet this doctor. I would love to, you know, sit down and have a few minutes with the VP. How do I, you know, I would love to talk to and I would.
I would reach out to people in my own company. And from that, I just built such a strong network, and I was able to instill my value that people were able to confidently talk on my behalf. So when I started reaching out to companies for positions, I had, you know, a support team there to also come in and say, she may not have that degree, but you really wanna talk to this girl. Yeah. And and and at least open up a conversation with her.
And that's and I I gotta say that's it was just the opportunities that I've been able to have and that I've taken on throughout my career. But, you know, as you're saying it, you started off by saying, well, maybe it was dumb luck. It wasn't luck at all. Like, you made it happen. And I wanna be clear about that as we're having this conversation because there's a lot of aspiring MSO that are listening to this. It's not look.
Yes. Maybe you could be in the right place at the right time, or maybe there is some there's some part of luck that that maybe plays into it, but I wouldn't rely on that. I think that your story is one that is based upon someone that's proactive, someone that's their own advocate, someone that's very good at networking. I mean, you keep going back to this. I reached out to this person. I reached out to that person. I asked this person. I asked that person.
So these are these are really the the lessons within this conversation that I think people should take away from it. But what about what would you say to the people listening that are trying to do the same thing that you're doing or that you did that are just really frustrated? That are like, look. I'm I'm not having this success. Like, what do you say to those people? It's the patience.
And that's and that was one thing I was thinking about because that is the one thing that frustrates me to no end when everybody's like, just be patient. Like, I'm not a patient person. I don't wanna be patient. I want it now. This is what I want to do. How do I do it now?
And it's, you know, if you're already it's like for everybody out there, if you're already in a role and you want to one day be an MSL, take the opportunities in your role now to engage with the medical affairs team to learn more from them, you know, opportunities even if it's just, hey, one of the MSLs, can I have a chat with you once in a while on your career path and what you've done?
And then if you can find ways to take on projects, so that you can engage more with KOLs, because that's I mean, a lot of what MSLs do is the KOL engagement, is learning how to speak with them, learning how to, have the right conversations, ask the right questions to get the information that you need for your company, and also to help understand more of what your KOL, what your researcher, what your doctor is trying to do for themselves and their patients.
So, you know, finding ways to build that, so that when you do finally get to a point where you can apply and you have the expertise, that's something you can say, I have this expertise. These are things that I've done. These are places that I've been able to show that I can be an MSL even though I didn't have that MSL path yet. And that's a lot of, I mean, a lot of support roles. Right? The clinical application support, surgical specialty support.
I know with pharma probably not so much, but on the medical device side, there's a lot of clinical application specialists, surgical support specialists, if you can get yourself in and those roles don't always require the d degree. Right? They just want some sort of scientific or even technician, nurses degree, something like that. So you can use that to kind of work your way in through the back door, if you will. And that's kind of how I did it. And that's how you did it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
And we, you know, we talk about that. So there's the idea of, like, an alternate title or a stepping stone starter position, if you will. We talk about that a lot in our coaching program, which, obviously, you went through. So that that is another thing that you can do to gain experience as a stepping stone to the MSO role. And it is unique. You're the you're the actually the first person that's been on this podcast that completed our program and then landed an MSO role.
So how, like, how did that work out for you? And I don't I'm not trying to turn this into an advertisement, but now I'm curious. Like, how did it work out for you? Well and, you know, it's funny too because when we I first kind of approached you with this idea of this podcast, I was thinking about, you know, how could I talk about my career path. And one thing that helped me was the MSL podcast that you do and, and your educational program.
So one of my friends who is an MSL, she recommended the program, and I started listening to the podcast. And I'm like, some of the episodes. Yeah. I do that. Okay. Good. I'm already on that track. And then somebody else would come on and talk about something slightly different. I'm like, I don't do that yet. I need to do that. And one of those things was reaching out to people on LinkedIn.
And you had said this in one of them where it was like, and even reaching out to you, and this is what I did. It's reach out to me. I'm happy to connect, but give me a reason to wanna connect. Give me at least some sort of knowledge that you know who I am or you've looked into me or you've heard me talk. So, you know, when I reached out to you it's like I really enjoyed this podcast episode. I'd love to learn more if you've got some time I'd love to talk to you for a few minutes.
And, you know, just opening the door that way. Yeah. So it was it's being able to have that as a support, and then through the course, it was just giving me more tips and tricks of things that I haven't thought of because it's coming from the MSL perspective, because I haven't been there yet.
Yep. So it's just understanding what some of the the finer nuances are to being able to get the role, to being able to interview effectively, to be able to write, a strong cover letter, a strong resume Yeah. To get noticed. Yeah. So those were all aspects that really helped and pushed kind of helped push me a little bit further over the line, over that giant hurdle. There's so much involved. Like, there's just so much involved in this whole thing. So there's listen.
There's hundreds of hours of podcast content. So Mhmm. The information's out there, and then the the benefit to the course is that we just we put it all into one place, and we kinda give you all the answers step by step. But the thing is, you have to implement it. Like, you have to do the work. You have to you can you can educate yourself, and you can see somebody do something, and you can learn something.
But if you're not able to implement it, if you don't have a a high converting resume that's gonna get through applicant tracking system filters, if you don't have a good eye catching cover letter, that's a true a true introduction. It's gonna make people want to talk to you. If you can't network, you can't win an interview and do a successful presentation, then you're gonna continually lose out to those that can. Mhmm. So I congratulate you on doing it and putting it all together.
And I I think, you know, you should be really proud of yourself because not only did you become an MSL, you did so with a lot of odds against you. Mhmm. But you did a great job. So let me ask you this because I know that this is something I think people would wanna know is so you got there. Right? Is it everything that you thought it would be? Are you happy as an MSL? I really am. It is it's everything I thought it would be and probably a little bit more.
I'm fortunate in that the company I'm working for now, you know, I'm coming in with 2 other brand new MSLs. So we get to build our department, we get to build our medical affairs team together, and we're all learning together. And we have a great mentor who's been an MSL for a very long time. She's super successful at what she does and she's absolutely brilliant. And she's there guiding us, but she's also there giving us the opportunities to figure it out for ourselves.
And so, you know, going back to taking all of the steps and putting them together, and one of the key things I think we should also point out is you need to be able to have a concise way to engage somebody, because that is also key as an MSL, especially going in with a brand new KOL, a new doctor you've never met. This is what I'm doing right now. I'm going out to doctors because I'm in a different part of the specialty. I've done anterior segment. I've done glaucoma. I'm in retina now.
And I know a few retina doctors, but I don't know all of the key players yet. So I'm now starting to get my foot in the door. So it's how do I do that? It's okay, I need to put together a really good email to introduce myself or I need to figure out a great way to bump into somebody and drop my books when when I'm at a meeting and oh my god and, you know, things like that to be able to engage some of these people and just start, oh, wow.
You had a great talk today, and you brought up this and this, and I'm really interested in this. Do you have 15 minutes to sit and talk with me? And it's being able to I think that's what kind of sets people apart as well is you gotta get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Mhmm. You gotta get comfortable with sometimes you're gonna put your foot in your mouth, and you go, my bad. I didn't mean to do that. I wasn't sure how to engage with you.
This is I would really just like some time, you know. I wanna learn more about you. And it's just pulling information, learning more about them, but it's being able to get to that and do that. And whether it's in writing or in person, it's that key element as well. I gotta tell you guys, I'm I'm listening to Lana, and there's a couple of things that are going through my mind. And I hope you guys are paying attention to this. Because what is going on not what she's saying.
There's something going on here that I think you guys all need to to go back and watch this again, and just pay attention to her confidence. This is a very, very confident woman, and that confidence really resonates. She's been an MSL for 5 minutes, and she just got on here and told everyone how to be an MSL in 5 minutes. So that's the that resonated with me, and I'm not just, like, pumping her up. This is a fact. I mean, if you watch this, you'll see what I'm talking about.
The second thing is we talk about how important communication skills are in landing an MSL world. You need to be a good communicator, and you need to have good interpersonal communication skills in order to be successful. You're looking at it. She has it. She has all these things. So, guys, this I want you to pay attention to not just what Lana is saying, but how she's saying it. Her confidence and the way she masters her confidence to be able to be proactive and professional at the same time.
There's nothing off putting about what anything that you said today, Lana. I just want you to know that. Like, there's not it's not confidence and arrogance. It's confidence and just confidence and professionalism. So kudos to you. I am so proud of you, and I think that you are gonna do tremendous things in your career. I really do. Thank you so much. That is you're awesome. I just I really appreciate those comments. That was cool. Yeah. No. And that's coming from the heart, guys.
Like, literally, as she's talking, that came to me, and I was like, I gotta point this out. I don't wanna miss this moment. And I hope that this is helpful for you guys. I hope that this is one of those episodes where you're gonna share it with other people and and listen to it again because I think that if if you're struggling to find a position, and it could be any position.
There's a lot of people listening to this podcast that are trying to get into, like, pharmaceutical sales and things like that. So whatever it is, there's a lot of takeaways. So please share it with your friends. Thank you for your support. And, Lana, thank you. You were awesome. Oh, thank you, Tom. This has been amazing. This is such a cool opportunity. I really appreciate this. Alright, guys. Well, listen. Come back and see us again.
Thank you for joining us, and, we always appreciate all your support. Thank you so much for listening to the show, and if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.