Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Sanath Cardoza. She is senior director of field medical at Mallinckrodt Pharmaceuticals, and we talk today about good versus great, what makes a rock star MSL. So this is a great conversation. I know you guys are gonna like it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn, and try to participate in MSL talk live, which is typically the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. That's on LinkedIn.
And you can see all the announcements and notifications on the LinkedIn platform. And, thank you guys for all your support and for sharing this show, and, really appreciate you joining us. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Sonas. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. Thank you so much for having me, Tom. What a pleasure to be here with you today. I'm excited. I am really excited.
And I know we've been planning this for a while, so we finally got here. So before we go into this is a guys, this is a really good topic. Sanas came up with this idea. Couldn't wait to share it with you. But before we get into that, why don't you do a quick intro? Tell everybody who you are, where you're from, and all that good stuff. Awesome. Thanks, Tom. Again, thanks for having me. So excited to be on this podcast. I am Sonis Cardoza, and I work for Mallinckrodt Pharmaceuticals.
And I've been with the organization for 10 years. My role at the company is I'm a medical science liaison director, for our hepatology product. And I I'm here, as sharing my opinions with you, as not as Mallinckrodt Pharmaceuticals. I'm here on my own behalf and not on, behalf of my employer. Awesome. You always gotta get those disclaimers out of the way. So I'm glad that we got that, before we we get started. So and I actually have an announcement too.
So I'm excited to announce that this episode is actually sponsored, by Fierce Life Sciences, their medical affairs strategic summit east. So you guys may know it as Mass East, which is one of my favorite conferences each year. It's coming up, and we are, helping in in the sponsorship. So it's the ultimate event for medical affairs, medical communications, and field medical leaders.
So this is like a premier event for networking and connecting with medical affairs leaders across pharma for 3 days. It's focused on really fun networking. You can elevate your expertise in the field of medical affairs through, all of their sessions. It's called the Fierce Medical Affairs Strategic Summit East. It's gonna be in Jersey City, New Jersey. That's May 6th through 8th.
They're running their early bird discount right now, and listeners of the MSL talk podcast will actually get 25% off on registration, but you have to actually mention the code MSLTalk. So no space, m s l t a l k. You get 25% off. You just go to www.medaffairsummit.com. This discount is valid only for professionals working for pharma, biotech, and medical device companies. That's n e d a f f a I r s s u m m I t dot com. Alright. So we got that. Hey, guys. I love that.
I love Massey, so you guys gotta join, you know, the event. Come see me out there. Okay. We are gonna talk about good versus great. What makes a rock star MSL? So let's let's jump right into it. Like, what does good look like to you? Let's start there. Yeah. Thank you for asking, Tom. So let's start with good. So a good MSL is somebody who does everything that the MSL role that they were hired for. They they do that.
They're box checkers, they meet with their KOLs, they meet their metrics, they do the projects when asked to do the projects, They have good relationships with their KOLs. They know the science. Those are the basics. Those are a good MSL. But what makes a great MSL and what does great look like is more than that. Right? Like, it's the difference between ordinary versus extraordinary.
And the difference in that is the extra, like, going above and beyond and going one step higher, and just beyond just the the surface level. These are MSLs that are gonna go to their managers and they're gonna suggest ideas to fill the gaps. They're going to, identify things that they should be doing and coming up with, hey, this is this is an area that I think we could be doing a little bit more on.
Bringing insights and bringing those insights back into the company in the way that the company wants to see them come through, whether it be through a CRM or whether it be directly to your manager. That's the difference to me of a a good MSL versus an above and beyond MSL. Somebody who's strategic and who can have, a foresight into the future and can predict where is the marketplace gonna go in that particular therapeutic area and bring those suggestions and ideas to their manager.
And also, accept that not every idea that you're gonna bring is gonna stick and that's okay. But then you're known by your manager that this is a person that is thinking, that is not just, you know, checking the box and doing the basics of their role. They now will view that MSL as somebody who has leadership potential because you are you're going above and beyond. You're doing that extra, which will, you know, be the extraordinary of what, makes a difference between good versus great.
I love it. That's such a great answer because it's it's pretty like, for anybody listening that's an MSL, it's pretty simple to follow. You you could certainly be good by just doing your job and checking the boxes, and then you can be great by going above and beyond. I'm not gonna repeat what Thomas just said, but and those are the distinctions. But I guess as I'm as I'm listening to you, I guess my next question is, so as a as an MSL leader, what would you say matters to you most?
Yeah. Absolutely. I think what matters to me most is attitude and how that person shows up to work. And I think, not just to me as a leader, but in everything that we do in life, the number one thing that it will determine your success is going to be the attitude and how you approach the task that you are given. There's a very simple quote by Abe Lincoln that says, do your job and do it well. And you can take that and run with it. Right? Because it's how you show up.
It's not just doing your job, but doing it with a positive attitude. You know, someone might say, oh, I have to lead this conference. Well, flip that and have the attitude of, I get to lead this conference. I get to meet with the director of this institution with particular specialty. What a privilege we have as MSLs to get to do the things that we we get to do. And having that mindset, I think, really comes in, in some of the MSLs that I've interacted with.
And that positivity really goes a long, long way. It helps the team have high morale. It helps when you have people on a team where everyone has that kind of, like, positive attitude. And and it just makes work life so much more fun, when we come with that mindset. I'll never forget it. When I was a pharmacy student, I had an IV rotation and even before coming into this rotation with this one preceptor, we all were very intimidated by this preceptor.
She was very tough and was known to just fail people out of this rotation. And having, you know, heard this information about her, I walked in and you needed to be there at like 4 AM to fill all the IVs for LA County, you know, hospital. I was already really intimidated and we walk in one morning, it was dark outside, and we walk into the IV room and one of the first things that came out of her mouth was, hey, what's gonna determine your success in this rotation is your attitude.
You can either have a good attitude and just accept the fact that you're gonna be here early in the morning or you can have a bad attitude. And that could just that will completely determine your success. You're gonna have to be in here anyways. You might as well have a great attitude. And that actually really, it sat with me because I realized that's a really good point. You know, the way that you walk into a project will set you up, with success.
And I think, that attitude and just how you approach each project that you are leading in your team and on in the organization, your attitude and your approach to it will really determine, your success and how your manager and the organization sees you. Well, you're speaking my language because you know how I feel about that. I am an attitude guy, and I'm a glasses half full kinda guy. And I love the idea of, you know, it's not I have to do this. It's I get to do this.
And guys, I'm gonna be honest with you, and I don't mean to bring this conversation down, but there's a lot of people that were unexpectedly laid off recently or that are on the job market. They got some bad news. Some people got bad news, like, right when the holidays hit. You know, and that's those are times that I feel for those people, and I'm trying to help those people. And those are the times when you really appreciate your job, and you'll run through a brick wall to get back to it.
So I just I don't want I think that I feel bad. I don't wanna use that as an example of why you should appreciate your job and why you should be grateful for your job.
But I do think that sometimes you get stuck in this rut of, oh, I have to go to work today, or oh, you know, when you think of all the negatives and it's a drag and it's tough that it's hard and all this other stuff, but I think that to put it to perspective, just as Sanath said, if you really want to stand out to your manager and excel and be a rock star, you have to have the right attitude first, and then the other stuff falls into place.
So let me ask you, other than that, what mistakes are you seeing MSLs make? Like, what do you think people really need to focus on to do better? Yeah, Tom. Thank you. That's a really great question. Some of the shortcomings that I see, and I've seen this, you know, with people that I interview and people that, that have reported to me over the years.
If you have the opportunity to be at a table and if you've if someone's join has asked you to join a sub team for a project, or a medical sub team, for example, if you've got a seat at that table, this is your chance. You've got to bring in, you gotta bring in value with your presence. As Sheryl Sandberg says, you know, in her book, lean in, you gotta lean in. You know, you gotta take advantage of the fact that somebody invited you and you have to contribute. Own your role.
Don't be afraid to speak up. You were asked to be there, for a reason. It's because you are an expert in a particular area, which is why you got that seat at the table. So own it, keep it concise, keep it to the point. You don't have to take over the meeting, but come prepared. When you're coming to a meeting, don't just show up and, you know, open the Webex if it's a virtual meeting and just wait for somebody to call on you. Be ready. Do your research before the meeting.
If you're involved in any type of a project outside of your day to day MSL task, this is your chance to really show your leadership qualities and what skill sets you could bring into a job beyond the MSL. And even even if you do wanna be an MSL, and that's great, you wanna be a career MSL, You wanna be the best career MSL. And, again, that's an opportunity where if you're asked to join a team, you got to speak up. You were brought there to share your insights from the field.
You are the expert, and you have to take advantage of that opportunity and not let it slide. Do you feel that and just listening to you, do you feel like there's, too much passivity where MSOs are just a little too passive and should be a little more proactive in their role. Where do you stand on that? Yeah. You know, I think the a lot of people think that in order to be a leader, you actually have to have the leadership title. But that is so not the case.
You can be a leader in any role and you don't have to have an official title to act as a leader. And I think a lot of times, people at organizations will come to meetings and expect that the leader should lead the entire meeting and have the entire agenda all packed and everybody else is just a passive listener, just listening in and maybe providing some, advice and, insights from their perspective and their function.
But really, if you if you take a step back, leaders are also looking for other leaders to provide their expertise on, any particular meeting. So where I think that MSLs could do, a better job and a better service to themselves is is to be prepared when you are invited to a meeting and to really be proactive and take that proactive mindset and approach and speak up. Again, you know, you don't have to take over the meeting, say it concisely, get your point in, and get right back out.
But leaders are looking for other emerging leaders to speak up and to lean on so that, you know, they can carry their ideas, and and suggest, you know, additional ideas or or maybe even disagree with them. They wanna be challenged. And that's okay. Don't be afraid to speak up. I think it's great advice. I love that. And what about, like, looking at people that are, you know, doing well and but they're really looking to stand out. They're looking to be the top. Like so we talk about Rockstar.
Like, that's the top tippity top. Like, what do those people need to do to really get your attention as a leader, and what do you think they need to do to stand out from their peers? Yeah. Absolutely. I think one of the, things that gets an MSL to stand out is you really have to go above and beyond, and, you know, goes back to the extraordinary and not just, you know, checking the boxes.
It's the person that comes to their 1 on 1 meetings with the manager organized with an agenda, ready to go and sent beforehand, and they share, you know, the list of things that they've done since the last time that they met, what kind of activities they've had in the field, discuss their territory plan, their, work with the their manage the their KOLs and, the continuum of the KOL that they're, you know, developing.
You share all those updates, and you also that's your chance to ask your manager, how can I help you? What is it that I can do for you and to take from your load of work, to help you? When people come and ask that, it is it it just you know, as a as a leader and a manager, you're so grateful that somebody is reaching out. But, of course, it's when it's the people that are highly organized.
It's the people that you know that are gonna be able to handle that task that when they come to me and ask that, I say, oh, yeah. Absolutely. Well, there's this one project and then, you know, here's an opportunity for that MSL to take on something pretty big. So being organized, being, ready to share updates with your manager through the agenda and making sure you're going through it, and that's your opportunity as an MSL to to show show that you are a rock star.
Don't be afraid to shed light on all the great work that you've done and to gloat about it. It's you know, if it's a one on one, it's you and the manager. This is your time to share your successes. If you don't share your highlights and what you've done, how else are they gonna know? Because if somebody else is gonna pick up the phone and ask the manager, like, what's going on in, you know, x y z institution and territory?
If you're a great MSL, you've downloaded your manager on that particular KOL, on that institution, and that already establishes you as a great MSL to that manager because you equip them with the data that they needed to pass on, to the relevant stakeholder. Yeah. And and the all the examples you just gave are what it means to be proactive. And I keep bringing that up only because being proactive isn't an MSL.
It I'm bringing that up because being in my line of work as a recruiter, I see people excel when they are proactive. They're not reactive. They're not sitting back. They're not waiting to be told. They are proactive in what they do. And I've used this analogy before on this podcast, but I don't really care what job it is. If you're the best at what you do, people will notice.
If you're a fry cook in Bikini Bottom working at the Krusty Krab and you're making krabby patties, and they're the best krabby patties in all of Bikini Bottom, well, there's gonna be a line outside the Krusty Krab, and people are gonna come from the chum bucket to come over to the Krusty Krab because you have the best krabby patties. I know it's a crazy example. And I mentioned that again because a lot of people commented the last time I said it.
So I'm using it as an example because you have to do better than everybody else, and the only way you could do that is when you're 100% proactive in your approach and not react. So, Sonos, I wanna get back to your your leadership style. And what are, like, what are some of the the frustrations or pet peeves that you might have that you see MSLs, fall into? So, like, I don't know. Is it, like, paperwork or expense reports, not getting in on time? What are some of the things that frustrate you?
Yeah. I think the thing that frustrates me is when I see people not owning their own development and, not taking, you know, that proactivity piece with their development and expecting that it should happen naturally. I've been here for, you know, whatever amount of years, put whatever number of amount of years, an x, and I should be promoted. Not necessarily. Right? The 2 don't go together. Development takes commitment from the individual first.
So my expectation is that the MSL should own that and come to the manager with where they wanna go and how they see themselves fitting into the organization in the future. And I will I will take that, and I I can I can work with that, and we will have developmental conversations? And I encourage my MSLs to put development on their 1 on 1 agendas and to keep it at the forefront because it's it's such an important piece. But I can't be the one owning it.
It has to be it has to be a shared ownership with the bulk of the the ownership actually being driven by the MSL because they're the ones who need to be doing the work in order to be promoted to the next level.
So I think, that's an important piece that I, you know, I see and I sometimes get frustrated with because I think people need to own that and, and and do their their share of, educating and building on their own skills and coming to, you know, their manager or their manager's manager when appropriate to ask for feedback on, you know, here's where I think I am. Is that an assessment, you know, that you have of me as well? What do I need to do in order to get to this next phase?
And maybe making, you know, a little, like, little steps at a time. I think I'm ready for a big project. Maybe, you know, you you start talking about a a a developmental plan of, I would like to take this and and offer it up and have a plan for why it should be you versus, you know, somebody else. Yeah. And that's that brings up a good point because we didn't talk about this yet, but you you do have to be your own advocate.
You have to hold yourself accountable, but you also have to be your own advocate at the same time. So I think that's great advice. You I know you you were in MSL at one point. So if you had to go back and give your younger MSL self advice, what would you tell her? Oh gosh, Tom. I think we'd need another podcast just for that because I would have plenty of things to tell my younger self.
But, first and foremost, the thing that I would tell myself is everything that I've shared with you, for this podcast and my answers. But I'll go specifically the areas where I think I lacked, when I walked into my first MSL role, which is, yeah, own the role. You know? You were hired for a reason. Be an expert, and don't be afraid to speak up.
I think too often, as female as a female, you know, I I I walk into a room with a certain background, right, with a certain upbringing and, being, you know, the the ethnicity that I am, you're you're supposed to be a certain way and you can't be too loud and outspoken. You gotta accept that and then work around it. And I think it did take me some time over the years to build enough confidence to be able to speak up. I wish I did it sooner.
So that's why I mentioned that to, the people that I mentor in my MSLs that it's okay. And and it's okay if you're not if your ideas aren't fully baked. If you get if you it's okay if you speak up and, you know, your idea doesn't catch, but you spoke up. You took you took the chance and you, you had the courage to say it, and that is what, what leaders do ultimately. Right? They have the courage to to say what's on their mind, and and sometimes they stick and sometimes the ideas don't stick.
But putting yourself out there is essential, and it's really important. Another thing that I would recommend to my older my younger self, and to, you know, any anyone who's looking to grow and to become better in their current role is make sure that you find a good mentor, a sponsor, an ally at the organization and outside of the organization who can give you really good advice and someone that you trust to give you feedback.
And and be sure to you know, if if they're watching you in a particular project or a presentation, ask them for that feedback afterwards so that, you know, they know specifically what you're asking about. Ask them specific feedback on how did I do on my presentation. Was I going too fast? Like, specific things that they can provide feedback to you on. And it's also so important to have that sponsor or ally at the organization as well because, those relationships matter.
I think organic building of mentorship is probably the best way, but some organizations, have official mentorship programs, and that's great too. Take advantage of that. Take advantage of whatever shape, and form of mentorship you can get your, you know, your hands on because that's essential.
And even even someone, you know, in their if they're in a managerial or leadership role, they should continue to have a mentor, someone that they can bounce ideas off of, and that could guide them towards their next role. You know, I'm glad you mentioned the word confidence. I was because, you know, I think that one of the things that distinguishes a really great MSL from from someone that might be a good MSL is the level of of confidence that sometimes comes with tenure and maturity.
Sometimes you have to grow into it. Sometimes people have it right from the beginning, but having a a good strong level of confidence in yourself and in your ability and in your approach and in your relationship building translates into such positive results, and really helps people in their career. So I'm glad you brought that up because I see people struggle with that. That's definitely something people struggle with. I love the mentorship.
I think it's really important that you brought that up as well because I think that really helps people. So let's let's kinda close with, you know, I think you and I had a conversation about the art of the MSL level, the art of MSL ing. So can you talk about the art of the of this the craft of of this job, and what does it entail? And I wanna I wanna end with that because I love to hear your version of that. Yeah. And it's such a great question, Tom, because it is truly an art.
It's a such a unique role, and I think we have such a privilege to be able to meet with these experts in the country. And and it's something that we have to kind of, like, shelter as well. You know? We have to protect this job and, and give it the proper nurturing and, and care that it needs. One of the essential key key pieces of the art of this job is gonna be emotional intelligence.
And every single one of us, including me, maybe, you know, we think that we have higher emotional intelligence than we probably actually do. So this isn't something that it comes to you naturally or that you just assume that you have it. You have to build on the skill. You have to continue to, like, educate yourself, and to keep up with books and, you know, seminars and LinkedIn Learning, whatever offerings your organization gives you or even if you have to go dig it up yourself, do it.
This is essential to how you progress in an MSL job or beyond. Leaders at any organization, there's one common, denominator. It's that they have high emotional intelligence. So that's an essential skill. Being able to read somebody and being able to, you know, read a KOL is an essential part of what makes a successful MSL. Another key thing in the art of being an MSL, I think, is being knowledgeable. Right? And that's not something that, you know, you come into your new job, your new role.
You go through onboarding. If there's a certification, you certify. It's ongoing. You have to keep that ongoing education and and and keep yourself abreast of the science. Not just the science in your therapeutic and disease state area, but the stuff around it. If your product touches hepatology, know the other stuff within hepatology. Know the other competitors.
The more you know of the space and the the vicinity, like, specialties near your space, the more you can establish yourself with the KOLs as a peer, and the more they'll respect and trust you. And that's a really important aspect of the art of being, you know, an MSL. Another key piece, I think, of being a successful and a a good MSL, a great MSL, is know your organization. Know the SOPs of your organization. Know them really well. Have them readily available. They're often probably updated.
Make sure you're reading the most updated version. And if you don't know it, ask the question. That's there's nothing wrong with asking if you're doing something right right or wrong. Just ask it. It's okay. And another key piece to the art of, being an MSL is know the medical strategy. And that's okay to raise your hand and say, I don't know it. And that's your opportunity to when you're with a 1 on 1 with your manager to to have them tell you the strategy. What's the medical strategy?
What are we trying to achieve, from a medical organization? What is the field medical strategy? Know what that is and know it really well and figure out how to get that done and give that to the organization because those that component is key in the MSL role. You can't be effective in your role. You can't bring in good insights that are gonna be turned into action unless you know the strategy.
And I think, unfortunately, a lot of times, that gets lost because there's so much, you know, that an MSL does, building their territory, their KOL plan, you know, figuring out their travel, potential projects they're working on. With all the work that they do, the medical strategy has to be underlying all of that in order to help the team be successful.
Awesome. Well, I'll tell you right now, guys, like, you might have to go back and listen to this because there was some tremendous advice and information that I really think that you're gonna wanna take some notes on if you haven't already. And by all means, probably share with your friends as well. So Sanas, thank you for joining us. Those were incredible advice, Really good, awesome nuggets in there. And, guys, don't forget to sign up for Mass East. I'd love to see you in Jersey City.
It's a great event. You'll learn so much. You'll be able to network with a lot of folks. And, Sanas, thank you again. You were awesome. Thank you so much for having me, Tom. It was a pleasure to be here. Awesome. Alright, guys. Take care. It was great seeing you, and I appreciate all the support of this podcast. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.