Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Sarah Snyder. She's an executive MSL recruiter on my team here at the Carolyn Group, and she discusses her career transition from medical science liaison to MSL recruiter. So it's really interesting conversation. Sarah is awesome as you guys know. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and check out our videos on YouTube. Check us out on Instagram and, connect with me on LinkedIn if you have not done so already.
And check us out at MSL talk live, which right now is on the Clubhouse app, the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. We may be making a transition to LinkedIn live, so we'll announce that as it comes, but we'd love to see you in that chat room. Thanks for listening. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSL's and all things field medical. Hey, Sarah. Welcome back. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Tom. I'm thrilled to be back.
Well, this is exciting because this is the first time you're actually on the podcast as a team member at the Carolyn Group. So that's exciting. Right? Yeah. Totally. I have my shirt on. I'm, like, ready to go. Yep. Yeah. So for those of you who are not watching this on YouTube and are listening to it in your car or at the gym or on a walk, Sarah is rocking her Carolyn Groot shirt. So just a little visual there. And fun fact, this happens to be our 99th episode.
And Sarah to date is the only guest that's ever been on this podcast three times. This is actually her 3rd time. So there's that. I didn't know that. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, it's and it's not just favoritism because Sarah's on my team now. She's an awesome guest. So I always migrate to awesome guests. So, excited to have her here. So, Sarah, why don't you start with, like, a quick intro? Yeah. Totally.
Yeah. I, I just wanted to go back in time a little bit because I know I've been on this show before, but I don't know that I've ever shared, like, just my history. So I'm a pharmacist. I got my Pharm d at Drake University. And just, I think it's important to note that I didn't actually want to go to pharmacy school. I wanted to go be a journalist and write for running magazines about health foods and like nutrition.
So the only reason I went to pharmacy school was like to butter my knowledge of health and nutrition. But then I got super interested in the drug development process. And so I still find it fascinating. And, I ended up doing an internship with FDA and a residency with Eli Lilly and stayed on board at Lilly and had a great couple years working in house before I transferred to the field.
And then I worked at both small, really like small startups and then large pharma as a medical science liaison for about 20 years. And I really love the role. Like there are different pivots throughout my life. I've got 3 kids. So, you know, sometimes the bigger role, the bigger company was a better fit. Sometimes the smaller, and I'm telling all of this because I really do think that it relates to the role of being a recruiter because I've kind of seen all the different places that MSLs can be.
But that brings me to this today and just, you know, the new role, and I'm so excited that you asked me to talk about it because I find that we go through life so fast that we stop and we don't think about why we made certain choices and what what do we think about it? How do we like it? And so I hope everybody else listening can just take a second and just think, like, do you like what you're doing right now? Like, why are you doing it?
And, you know, if you don't like it, like, you know, do something about it. And if nothing else that you get out of this today, I hope you get that. Well, that's, I mean, that's an awesome introduction. It's a great way to go go into this because this really is a kind of a coming of age story, if that's, I don't know, or coming to reality story or career transition story, all of the above. And it's it's also a tremendous success story because, you're doing awesome.
We don't need to get into that right this second, but it's been a really awesome transition. Let's talk about how that happened. So you were an MSL. You were working at BioSplice Yeah. And things were coming to an end. And then what happened? Yeah. Yeah. And I'll start with the BioSplice part because I think this is an important thing too. Is at BioSplice, it was a really high risk, high reward position. And I actually took it.
I went and worked with my boss there was a good friend of mine from a previous company. The VP of medical affairs there was also someone that I had worked with at a previous company. I had the other MSL. One of them that I worked with was a previous colleague. So I think that just speaks to the value of networking. And, you know, I knew it was high risk, but I also knew the people that I was gonna be working with, and that was really important to me.
So, anyway, long story short, our data didn't pan out, but I had a great 2 years there. And I started there right when COVID started. So it was so funny because that was my orientation and then, in California, and then I came home and COVID hit. So I literally never was in the field, except for a couple therapeutic meetings with BioSplice. But I I really when I talk about being proactive, like, I really mean it.
And one of the things that jumped out to me at the time was, like, I I gotta do something. Like, otherwise, they're I'm not gonna show my value here. They're gonna get rid of me and, you know, like, I gotta figure out something. So immediately, my boss' name is Sarah, and I talked to her and I was like, we need to really work on digital opinion leaders. We need to figure out how this works. We need to figure out more about Twitter, LinkedIn.
Bio Spice was you know, my my primary OLS were orthopedics, and they hang out on LinkedIn. So I got obsessed with LinkedIn and the strategy and the the way that people were connecting on there, how to build up your profile, how to find people and connect in a, you know, a nice manner as a as a medical science liaison. So that was, like, my whole strategy for why I got interested into, like, social media was I wanted to succeed as an MSL and make our company succeed. And, it was super fun.
Like, I learned all kinds of things about using Twitter and social media as for physicians. And, still, if you look at the orthos, they kill it on LinkedIn. It's amazing, the the network that they have. And during that time, what happened this is a long story, but, I built up my own LinkedIn presence because of that. And all of a sudden, I had MSLs reaching out to me, or aspiring MSLs, and I hadn't really had that before.
I kinda had stayed in my own silo, to be honest, with my own team at previous companies and just kinda did my job. But this opened up, like, a new network to me that was really cool, and I started talking to a lot of aspiring MSLs or people that just wanted to explore different opportunities. And just for fun, you know, I started that and, it it just built into something that I really enjoyed.
I like to talk to people and figure out what makes them tick, what make might make them want to go into things. And, I mean, honestly, that's how I the podcast. Like, I listened to your podcast before, but then I was listening to one one day about Twitter. And, I was thought to myself, well, jeez. I maybe I could, you know, ask Tom if I could be on the podcast. And I think, you know, people use COVID in different ways.
I used it to just really try to, like, build myself, my confidence, and just do things outside of my comfort zone. And so just reaching out to you and be like, I wanna be on your podcast. You know? I didn't feel comfortable doing that, but I did it anyway. And if I had never done that, I would have never gotten in the position that I am today to try something new and work with you. So, anyway, I think when BioSplice went south, I contacted Tom.
I contacted you, and I said, I I I don't, you know, I'm getting laid off. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. You know? And and I said, I think maybe I'm gonna do some kind of coaching or consulting. And and you, I mean, I'm so thankful for this because you said, what about recruiting? Have you ever considered recruiting? And I think, you know, if you don't put yourself out there, you you'll never get that kind of opportunity.
So, you know, you reaching out and saying that to me, that's how it all started. And then, gosh, we had some conversations. I talked to Bridget who's just fabulous. And I remember having a thought. I was, like, driving home for dropping my kids, and I thought, Sarah, it's always been important for you to surround yourself with the kind of people that are gonna make you better. And I knew that Tom and Bridget would like that.
Like, you just have to spend a couple minutes with you, and you know that you're, like, trying to be the best version of yourself. And that's that's what drew to me to this, and I thought, I wanna be a part of it. Well and that is exactly how it happened. And there's actually that's the first time I heard the full story. I didn't realize there was all that behind the scenes stuff, that had developed prior to that. But I wanna just point out that you being proactive.
I mean, you you hit the nail on the head. You being proactive and putting yourself out there, taking yourself out of your comfort zone. You did reach out to me. The way we met was you reached out to me on a whim, reached on via LinkedIn and said, hey, Tom. You know, fan of the podcast. Wanna introduce myself. Have this idea. You know, let me know if you're open to it or not. No big deal. Like, it was very, you know, non, aggressive. It was it was really laid back.
It was it was very, complimentary, I guess, was kind of the tone. And I was like, yeah. Let's have a conversation. And from that conversation, you and I have developed this partnership. We've developed a friendship. We've gotten to know each other. And when you said to me that you were thinking about doing something else, transitioning into another type of career, but you weren't sure what it was gonna be, I got hit with a bolt of lightning.
I was like, you should think about being a recruiter because you'd be awesome at it. So, the rest is history. Here's where we're at. So catch me up to speed as far as there's people out there listening that might not be 100% comfortable in their current role, or they wanna get promoted into something else. What were you feeling at that time as far as, like, when you made the decision and you said yes and you wanted to do it? Were you nervous? Were you 100% sure of yourself?
Like, what was the emotion that you were going through, and how did you get through that transition initially? Yeah. Yeah. And I can answer that in 2 ways because I actually luckily, I've only been laid off twice. So I went through, I think, about 16 years and never got laid off. And then, I got laid off at the company before a bios place. And at that time, I'll tell you, Tom, I was devastated and I felt like I, I that's why I feel like I can relate to MSLs when they get in that position.
Because when you are a high performer and you go through your life and you, you know, are generally successful per se, and then you have that happen, you feel like you just were not in control. And so that's how I felt the first time. And then fast forward to the second time, I felt like I realized that things happen for you, not to you. And I really took that to heart. And I, like, you know, initially, I got it.
And, I mean, I did kinda feel bad for a day, but then I thought, no. You're moving on. Like, this this happened for you. And I just took it forward, and I I really did try to walk the walk and say, like, if I tell my kids that they can do hard things, Sarah, you can do them too. And you're never gonna feel completely confident. I think that people think, oh, I'm gonna move into a new therapeutic area, or maybe I wanna go to a smaller company, but I'm not ready. I don't have the skill set.
I don't have the experience. And the only way you're ever gonna get that is to do it. And so I think you're gonna make mistakes. I mean, I I I laugh because, you know, you let me just start. And, I mean, I'm sure those first couple people that I talked to were like, who is this girl? Like but I just tried my best. I mean and I just tried with each person to listen and to you know? And then after the call, think like, well, how could I have asked better questions? How could I listen better?
What can I do better the next time so that, you know, if things go, you know, go better? But I just feel like, I did feel this energy, and I felt like, if you listen to your intuition and you really think to yourself, like, what's your why? Why why am I in the career? And maybe, you know, if you're in a place where it kinda feels a little bit easy, then it's a lot of times time to think. Like, really? Am I growing in this, or am I kinda, you know, just stay in here because it's easy?
And then it might be time to challenge yourself because you and I both have, like, believe that if you're not challenging yourself, you're just almost going backwards. So I think I feel that strongly. For sure. Oh, no doubt. And, you know, for those and, again, there's a lot of people out there that that might be thinking about and it might not be a career transition per se, but maybe it is a promotion, like you said.
Maybe it is going into a different environment, whether it's small pharma, large pharma. Maybe it's rare diseases, maybe it's a different therapeutic area. You know, confidence and faith in yourself is a is a really huge part of it. And the one thing that I saw from you is that once you made that decision, you were all in. And I think that that has translated into so much of your your success. And for those of for those of you listening, Sarah's just I mean, she's off to such a tremendous start.
She's been very successful in a very short period of time, and I really think it's because of the hard work and the commitment and the confidence that she has. So talk a little bit about when, so you you, you know, you you made that decision. You came here. As far as a career, as far as this move, was it what you expected? Were there any are there any moments that you're like, oh, I wasn't ready for this. Now what do I do? Yeah. Well, I first I'll just say like, I love it.
Like I love being a recruiter and I like talking to people and just trying to find out what makes them like, where their passion is, what their why is and what might be a good fit for them. So I really do feel like it was a good career move. I think I didn't expect as many similarities between the MSL role and the recruiting role. And so I think for all the medical affairs or MSLs out there listening, like, we're trying to do the same thing that you are.
We're trying to build relationships with people. We're trying to best communicate. So, like, some people might like text. Some people might like this long 30 minute phone call. And, like, trying to figure out what your key opinion leaders want, that's the same thing I'm doing. It's just about careers or about work versus, you know, the therapeutic area and information, but we're all doing that. We're trying to foster things.
I think, you know, a lot of the same things that the MSLs do, like, where you're trying to contact a KOL, like, 6 times and they, you know, they don't respond to you. You're trying to run them down at a conference. You know, that's the same thing that we're doing too. And so being persistent, you know, being a good listener, I think all those things translate well into the role. So I think that was, like, the biggest surprise.
And then, you know, I guess the other thing I'll say is it's really hard. Like, recruiters work so hard and, you know, so do MSLs. So I think both of those, coincided nicely as well. Yeah. So now that you're on this side so you've been in MSL, now you're a recruiter and and you're specializing in MSLs. So why what can you tell job seekers about having relationships with MSO recruiters? How important is it? Is it a good idea?
Like, what are you what are your feelings now that you've seen both sides of it? Yeah. I think number 1, especially in such a busy world, like, your recruiter is like your cheerleader. Like, it's someone on your team. It's someone in your corner that's rooting for you and is there to listen, whether you're having a great day or maybe you are. Maybe you're kinda, like, 2 weeks ago, you got laid off and you need just someone to talk to you for a couple minutes. You know, we are your cheerleader.
We want the best for you. We want to get you through and find the a role for you. I think, you know, a lot of times you just want like, if you're if I was an MSL still, I want feedback on my CV. I want feedback on, my presentation, you know, on any questions like the again, the world has just changed so much. I mean, I you know, I'm old now. I guess, you know, my CV is still how it was 20 years ago. It's just a lot of things added.
So, you know, a recruiter can look at it and give you honest feedback and say, hey. You know, maybe tell you the hard things too. You know? Sarah, you need to go back and revamp this because ZOLL. You know, whatever. Like, we'll be honest, you know, and honest back and forth. So I think that getting feedback. And then the third thing is, it's a really competitive market out there.
So if you want to hear the coolest options, like, the the really neat positions first, you know, get a relationship ongoing with a recruiter because I've got, like, holistic people. And when I get something, I'm like, oh, I know the per you know, you immediately start drawing lines to people. So, you know, you wanna be there first to hear about things so that you can get the first chance at it. So I think, you know, having that established relationship is key. Yeah. For sure. Mhmm. Alright.
So we've established that it's important to have these these relationships. So how do you advise someone go about that? How do what's the best way for job seekers to engage a recruiter? Yeah. You know, it's pretty simple. It's just ask. You know, I don't think very many recruiters are gonna turn you down if you just ask in an honest and humble manner, and, you know, even if you're an aspiring, you know, I'll talk to you. You know, I might it might not be this week.
You know, like, one might be down for the the road, but I'll try to make time on my calendar and and help you out. So I think just asking, you gotta put yourself out there just like you said earlier. Like, if in order to get anywhere, you know, it's not comfortable, but you have to. And I think, when you do and whether it's to us or another firm or to a company, share what you have to offer. And, you know, and share what you have to offer the like, a potential company. You know?
Don't go about it, like, and say to the recruiter, like, I need help. You know? Like, I mean, I know you need help, but if you go about it with, you know, anybody that you're reaching out to, like, here are my transferable skills from what I'm doing now to what I can do. Like, this is what I have to offer. You're gonna get a lot more buy in than if you come at it to with the attitude just that I need help.
And then the other thing is just like beef you know, use your MSO, like, mentality of follow-up. Like, no one's ever really trying to go see you. Like, if you don't hear feedback, like, just reach back out and ask again. You know? We're all human, so we're doing the best that we can, but we're busy. Like, we have a lot of positions. We've got a lot of candidates. You know? So just that just be back and forth proactive about communication. Yeah. For sure.
I think communication is such an important piece of the equation. I think that it's, I think it's just paramount to the success of the recruiter candidate relationship. And I think that there's gotta be transparency in that communication. I also think it's really important for job seekers. This is just some advice on my side just to to throw it in there, is establish ground rules with with your recruiter from the beginning.
Let them know what it is that you're looking to do, how you're looking to do it. What's the best way to contact you? When do you prefer that someone contacts you? Do you prefer text? Are you a phone person? Are you an email person? How does that relationship look for you? What's the most convenient or what's the most preferable for you? And I think that that will take things in such a great direction because there's gonna be mutual respect right from the beginning.
So, Sarah, do you have any other best practices that might be good that you can share with some people, especially job seekers? I mean, what you just summed up is, like, how an MSL works with their KOLs. So it's like I said earlier, their the relationships are more similar than you think. So I, you know, I had a note that it's the the recruiter, you know, candidate relationship is the same as KOL relationships. You know, be organized, be honest, be prepared.
And I think that it will go a long way. Yeah. And and I think it's also important to and this is just me kinda throwing again my 2¢ in. I think it's important to, the goal is is to get you an offer. So when that point in time comes, just realize that it's in our best interest as you're the firm representing you to get you the best offer possible.
So transparency and responsiveness are 2 of the most important things when negotiating a job offer because we are going to be at the in the front line with the client, negotiate on your behalf.
So if there's any information that's missing or if there's information that hasn't been communicated or or not accurate or if there's something that's really important to you, if you have a big vacation planned and, you know, you don't wanna wait until after you accept an offer to say, oh, by the way, I forgot to tell you. I'm gonna be on vacation for 2 weeks in Africa, and I can't start until this date, or I'm gonna start. And then 3 weeks later, I'm gonna be, you know, away.
Like, just try to get all the details together so that everybody's on the same page. And the most important thing is be responsive. Sometimes people disappear, and maybe they disappear for good I don't know. Maybe they're just super busy. Maybe they're working a conference. Maybe they maybe they're pursuing another opportunity or they're just not sure where their heart is and where they stand.
But the thing is, if you disappear and you're not responsive and you're not transparent, it's not helping your cause. It's not helping your recruiter. It's not helping your cause either. So those are a couple things that I like to, you know, to communicate with the candidates that I work with. What other advice do you have, Sarah? As as you look at the job market right now, what makes people stand out, and what should people start to consider as far as, you know, we hear the term level up.
Like, what do people need to do to level up? Yeah. Well, a couple easy well, it's easier said than done, but, like, update your CV. Like, you just do it. And I think you have a couple episodes on that too, like, with tips and tricks, but, you know, just do it. Take the time and do it before you need to, because then you're not sitting there when you're at, like, at a period of stress having to do it.
So, you know, maybe take tomorrow and just take 2 hours and update your CV or resume and get it in good order with your professional experience first. And then your LinkedIn profile, I can't emphasize enough how much your LinkedIn profile matters. Like, I I guess I never realized, like, how recruiters use LinkedIn, but, you know, get a good picture because that I actually got a question today, you know, from a candidate. He said, you know, do you have any recommendations on my LinkedIn?
You know, what would you think? And I said, we don't have a picture. And so when you don't have a picture or a nice picture, you know, like, I'm scrolling through, and it really does matter when you're looking through all day. So get your LinkedIn in order, you know, take some time to do that, and, get a picture on there. And then, you know, network.
I mean, network internally within your company and externally before you need to because you don't wanna be having to network with recruiters or with external people, like, when you need a job. Like, do it before, and you'll be surprised. Like, you're not gonna just do it because you wanna get a different job. Like, it's fun. You're gonna be a better MSO and medical affairs person if you see what other companies are doing and you're networking with other people, so I think that helps a lot.
And then the final thing I'll say is, figure out your why. So, like, when I first started the recruiting, I don't know, it's couple weeks ago, I did feel really burnt out. All of a sudden, I just felt like, my gosh. I just went, win, win, win, win. And just you know? And gosh. And, you know, I think MSLs can feel that way and job seekers can feel that way too. You hit this point. But the truth is, like, none of us are really burnt out. We just lost our, like, sense of purpose or our why.
So, like, I just took some time that day to reset and remember, like, why did I choose to do this? Why do I wanna help people? And I think if people that are job seeking, you know, why do you wanna take a new opportunity? What you know, who are you doing this for? Why? And why do you want that particular one? Or why do you wanna be an MSL? You know, that will keep you going, and you won't feel so burnt out. So remember your why is the last thing I'll say. Awesome. I love it.
So do you miss being an MSL? No. You guys asked me I had the privilege to come to dinner last week with all of the Carolyn group, and, Dan actually asked me that. And I I I can honestly answer, like, the only thing I miss are my friends, and we all keep in contact anyway, especially for the last couple comp like, companies. So yeah. Otherwise, it's strange. I know. Maybe it's just because I've been busy enough, but I feel like I get to talk to enough people.
And, and I do, like, keep up with science through running and health and fitness. So I feel like that fills that kind of void for me. Well, we'll keep you busy. We'll keep you so busy. You won't you won't be thinking about anything else. Alright. Well, we are almost at the end here. So any final pieces of advice for folks out there? Could be on career transition. Could be on for job seekers. Could be anything. Anything you wanna share, go for it.
Yeah. Well, first, I just wanna thank you because I would have never had the opportunity to do this, and I I would have neither, like you say. Like, you don't wake up and think I wanna be a recruiter. Like, that's just not, like, in people's head sometimes. So if somebody reaches out to you and gives you a suggestion, like, take it and think about it, maybe it's not the right move, but maybe it is.
So I think that is probably, you know, the biggest thing is that I just feel a lot of gratitude for getting the opportunity to surround yourself with good people and things happen. And you already talked about, like, the hard work, but it's funny because I told my daughter, like, maybe the second time we had talked about this opportunity. And I said, I feel so lucky. I feel so lucky that something happened like this where someone would offer me, like, the opportunity to do something different.
I don't know why this happened, but just and she's she said, mom, you always tell us that, like, luck doesn't happen. It's because of hard work. And so I did feel like, you know, if you just put in the time, you put in the network thing networking, and you just, you know, get up every day and you do your best, then things will happen for you. You know, I always say luck is when hard work meets opportunity, and that's exactly what you were just saying. So thank you, Sarah, for being so awesome.
Thank you for being here for your 3rd time, and thank you for being my 90 in my 99th episode. So the next episode, as you guys could probably guess, is gonna be our 1 hundredth episode. It's going to be on, April 19th. So join us for that. It's going to be a solo episode. I am going to try to recap 2 years. Not totally, but maybe, like, top tips or top lessons from the last 2 years. So there's gonna be a lot of interesting info.
There's gonna be some fun facts and some things that I've learned from guests, and, I I I can't wait to put it together. So definitely join me for the 100th episode. Sarah, thank you again, and, I'll see you, I'll see you every day. Sounds good. Thanks, Tom. Okay, guys. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.
Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.