Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Chad Fellers, director of medical science liaisons at Harmony Biosciences. And we talk about how MSLs go from data disseminators to trusted advisors. Awesome conversation. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube and Instagram and, of course, LinkedIn. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Chad. Welcome, buddy. How are you doing today?
Man, I am doing better than I deserve. How about you, Tom? I'm doing great. I'm excited. I'm excited that we're doing this. And, just for everybody out there, I wanna start by saying that Chad and I are in full spring mode. He's wearing a pink shirt. I'm wearing a light purple shirt. And, we're full spring mode, just to give you a visual. Just give everybody a visual out there. Pre appreciate appreciate the heads up on that too, in in all honesty. I I I love to step into this.
It's springtime, and, what better, better time just to share these kind of colors? So I I think you look sharp, man. Thank you. Oh, man. You too. Thank you for the memo. Well, we are ready to go, and let's start. I always like to start with intros. So if you if you wanna just, do a quick intro, let everybody know who you are and what you're up to these days, that'd be awesome. Sure. Sounds good. Well yeah. So, again, so I am working with Harmony Biosciences. I'm a pharmacist by trade.
I currently serve, serve my team of MSLs, at Harmony Biosciences as the national field, MSL director. So I serve a team of 7 right now looking, looking forward to the future that it holds. We we serve a patient population and providers in the rare disease space. Awesome. And so you and I go back. We have this conversation, and you tell me all about how your team's doing over the course of the last year. That motivated this conversation.
So let's talk about that because I know your team has experienced tremendous success, probably, like, in an uncanny sense, looking at how challenging it's been with COVID and everything else over the course of the past year. So if you could share some of the stuff you guys are doing and talk about that success, I'd love to let's start with that. Sure. Sounds good. So first of all, Thomas, I shared the other day, my team is amazing. They they are really, really special.
They they care, as we all do in the MS in the MSL space. I think, COVID certainly presented some unique challenges, but the team really rolled up their sleeves to better understand different ways of being able to engage with KOLs. Talking with you about that.
So just from a snapshot standpoint, look look the other day, looking at the Q1 of this year compared to last year, and the number of KOL engagements, talking about from a virtual standpoint, video chats, if you will, we were actually up 10% year over year between face to face interactions, as well as now here in the COVID space where it's been totally virtual. So just a phenomenal job.
Their support's really been around both external and internal stakeholders, but the really essence of it has been providing value to the individual KOL versus just more of a a blanketed approach. But we've had really some great success, and it's continuing on into the Q2 so far. That's awesome, man. Well, first of all, congratulations. I'm not surprised because you're a superstar, and I'm sure you're just, you know, leading those folks down the right path.
But let's talk about a little bit about some of the specifics, some of the things that these guys are doing. What's what are some of the what's the different approaches and specifics that you can share with us that may be the differentiators? Yeah. I would love to do that. First, though, let me let me go back. I appreciate the compliment, but it's not a it is not about me. It is about, creating a culture. I know we've talked about culture as well. Yeah. Team. The team are the rock stars.
It's really casting a vision and then getting out of the way and letting them execute. So, they are the true superstars. But when we're talking about an approach, thinking it back back to March, it's about the time where things started to shut down with COVID last year. We decided to step back and take a little unique approach to how we engage our our KOLs. So we have, oh, 50 or so that are focused, KOLs within each region.
The first thing that we did in March was reading was emailing, contacting them, leading with the heart. So no and what I mean by that is just checking in to see how they're doing, knowing that it's, it's a rough time. They're being called into, to clinics, to the hospitals just to help with, all the COVID cases that were coming in. There was a lot of unknowns. We weren't asking for any or trying to say, hey. We know it's a busy time.
We'll reach back out in a couple of months, anything like that. It was just, hey. We just wanna check-in to see how you're doing. And, Tom, you would be amazed. So, obviously, we know that there are some, KOLs that are challenging that may never even that may be on a list that you never hear responses from. Mhmm. They're always busy. We got we heard back from them as well too.
We've tried engaging a few, had never been able to connect, but just leading with the heart opened up a door, that's created relationships over the past year, even with some of the, the toughest KOLs to engage. So so that was one was leading with the heart. The next, that was a challenge of being able to identify current gaps that the KOLs had. So, we we found a couple of different things with that. One was networking.
Mhmm. They no longer had a a chance to engage with their, their colleagues at conferences other than a virtual space that was kind of awkward, as well as patient care in the COVID environment. So really stepping back, trying to figure out what the needs are, and then being able to step into those. And so that was really our focus of our, of our group. We did that. You you asked how we did it tactically, did a couple of different things.
So when we understood that from a networking perspective, we started having peer discussions with KOLs across across the US, coming together, sharing their challenges around the COVID environment, how you the approach to patient care, some of the assessments and things like that have never been done from a virtual space. So how are we ultimately being able to provide COVID care? We were a conduit, for that to happen. And then clinical staff education support, whether it's, for NPs and PAs.
We started thinking about ways to if we're really trying to provide value to, our KOLs, that may look different in this this environment. Maybe it's their support staff, etcetera. So getting creative that way, those were a couple of ways that we engage, and the response has been, really well received across across the US. That's awesome. And you mentioned value, which is such a huge and important word. So how do you assess and measure value as from an MSL perspective?
Yeah. That's that's such a good question. I think that that's something that really industry has has struggled for years how to truly truly define it. Your question was really around measuring value from the MSL perspective. So I'll start I'll start there. So, we came together as a group, really in a working group, just to better understand the MSL team. Mhmm. Really just to define just that. And, I love it how a couple of couple of the MSLs on the team really defined it, the MSL, as a bridge.
And so a bridge not only to the from the KOL to the company, but in this scenario, we're also be being a k, a bridge from KOL to KOL, connecting people that have never been able to engage before, connecting fellows to, their former, their their, fellowship directors, others, peers that they that they were in school with being a conduit for that. So I think it's really, being a bridge. And with that is insights that you're able to collect when you're engaging with them during these conversations.
Mhmm. So then so I I said my question was, how do you assess or or gauge the value from an MSL perspective? But from the way you started the answer, do you also, you know, do you also measure it as it relates to the KOL? Yeah. So I think, and that's really an important, I think, differentiator that we're we're talking about and and had part of this conversation previously to to even have this podcast was just really kind of changing the mindset, Tom, from a data disseminator to Mhmm.
To a trusted trusted adviser. Yeah. We have to start thinking about things more than just being product experts. Really, our team wants to be a go to scientific resource, resource really for any kind of disease disease state support. So I think that that is one way, as we're thinking about how the value we bring to thought leaders is is that mindset of being that that support. Tom, I don't know how many emails that you probably have in your inbox. Right?
So there's millions of people that are competing for our interest and time, and so we have to think about why, why a KOL would want to engage someone that they really may have, maybe a disease state that they only have 2 patients in. So there's always an order for time. So being able to be a scientific resource where they don't have to go to journals is certainly one. I think what we've learned over the past year is, the insights from the field.
So, we talked about insights that come back to the company. Right. I think that providers wanna be validated for their approach. I think that they wanna understand the feedback from their peers, and this has certainly been one way to do that. So I think that that's a way we can bring, value as well as scientific data to consider.
So I'll if we can challenge the the thoughts and the understandings, in an appropriate way, I think that, that scientific big bigger is something that, the the thought leaders actually appreciate, from from the MSL team. So, really, those three areas, I think, are are ways that MSLs can bring value to the KOLs. Yeah. That's awesome. So as a leader, you're encouraging your MSLs strategically to bring value to their KOLs in all the ways that you just mentioned, and it's making a huge difference.
It's paying off. That's right. It Tom, it it's really pretty simple. The thing that we we wanted to take a step back and think about, if I were receiving an email, what the WIFM is how we we define it. What's in it for me? So if okay.
We have to make sure that those that we're engaging, that there is something of value that compels them to want to even, open up, the email to schedule 15 to 30 minutes from a video conference, whether it's an introduction, whether it's continuing a relationship, whether it's creating new opportunities, we have to figure out what that value is for that for the the KOL, and then be able to to meet them there.
So that always has to be at the forefront of the of the MSL mind when they're when they're reaching out to, to a thought leader in their area. And just out of curiosity, how do you measure that? How do you measure that value that you're bringing to the KOL amongst your team? How is there a system of how they report that back? Is it the insights? Like, exactly how is that measured? Yeah. So I really think so, you know, we've talked about insights. I've mentioned that a few different times.
I really think it's important to have strategic questions that we're going to, to engage with KOLs. When we when we think about insights, insights really more are things that are actionable, things, the why behind the why, if you will. I think what I what I tend to do, as a team, we often, come come together just well, I would say MSLs at large, they have strategic objectives. They have a list of questions they wanna better understand and bring and bring back.
I think, marketing, other parts of the organization, they do these types of things all the time, different surveys, advisory boards, but many times, the why behind the the reason is not captured. And so what we've really focused on, if there are 7 to 10 questions that that we want to ask an, a KOL, it's okay just to spend time on 1 or 2 of those Mhmm. To really understand what's driving the the behavior. Mhmm. And we take that information back.
We actually collect it using, an external vendor, to collect insights, and then being able to bring it back and look at it from a national perspective, a national thought leader, regional thought leader, locals, etcetera. We can break that information down to see, where the education and what education is needed to to a certain group. So being able to do that for the company, as well as for the KOL just helps reaffirm some things and then shapes behavior.
Sure. And it I'm sure it goes back to performance too. Obviously, it's a benefit to the KOL. It's a benefit to the organization, but it also is a benefit to the MSL because the MSL is being tracked. And there's I'm sure you're you have performance metrics just like everybody else. Yeah. So I think that use the the m word the m word. Right? M word. That is that is a word that is not well embraced, from from MSLs, from a standard.
I think Mhmm. Importance though when you think about insights and being able to collect not only the answer, but what's driving the behavior and then being able to quantify it, I think that that's where the currency of MSLs, really lies. To be able to say, we asked this question, and this was the response, and 70% of those said, this is the reason for that response.
That helps us think about medical strategy, that helps the business to be able to think about their approach potentially, and then it it fuels and supports the organization at large at the same time being able to reaffirm things to other KOLs based on what their peers say, and and what they've shared. So I think if you can quantify qualitative information, that's the true measure.
I don't think you will ever be able to from a metric standpoint, you know, Tom, as you as you know, many of the the the common language across this industry, even within a business, is reaching frequency when you're talking to, your cross functional groups, etcetera. And that is a battle. A battle is not a good word. That is not a, a metric per se that we will ever win compared to a sales organization just because of the the breadth of ours, our coverage areas, the travel that's associated.
So that doesn't speak the language to it. Certainly, it's a piece of that. You need to be able to quantify things. Mhmm. But being able to, like I said, inform and influence because the rationale behind that's where you that's where you win as, in my opinion, as a as a medical affairs group, within this to help speak that language. And your your so your message is quality and value. That that's your message. That's the motivation for your MSL team.
That's really your not mantra, but that's that's your stance in how you're leading your MSL team. But it does need to be quantified. I mean, to be clear, it does. I mean, the more it's just like when you look at a clinical trial. Right? You see the, you see how it's powered. You see an n of 20 versus an n of 200. There's certainly some value in being able to put some substance behind it too. So both are important, but certainly, it's the it's the insights that are driving or the behavior Mhmm.
Currency is. And that's what we're working hard to continue to, to share to our cross functional groups. And that's that's the that's really our approach and how we measure productivity, if you will, from from field medical. Right. So as we're talking so we're talking about KOL engagement. What do you think that looks like for the future for MSLs? Yeah. I think it's, it's to be determined in many ways.
I think, it it Tom, it was so I I remember back to even just sales trainings and things like that. Field medical really doesn't even like to be on video video cameras at all. It'd be more you feel more comfortable with with phone calls, etcetera. I think COVID was such a a blessing in many ways, that things have come from it. I mean, we're now much more comfortable with you and I having this conversation. It's almost like we're in the same in the same room.
I think, people are becoming more tech savvy, whether it's using multiple platforms, being agile in that, and I think KOLs are too. So I think it's gonna be a hybrid between both the virtual and the field. I think, things are gonna change. Routing was so important, in years past, thinking about if you cover 6 states, what your month is gonna look like. I think now, that goes out the window in many ways.
I think it's going to be I could be, having a KOL visit in New York the same day I'm having one in Connecticut, and it'd be no issue, or even Florida. It depends on how big the size is. Right? I think this virtual allows that. I don't know if it will ever replace face to face because there's certainly value behind that, but it does offer, some flexibility for the future.
Well, and and it just provides, you know, it's flexibility, but it's what these these different platforms can expand it to so many different areas within medical affairs. This this movement to digital is now finding its way into clinical trials and conferences and congresses and meetings and advisory boards, and it's become a big piece in the overall picture, not just in KOL interaction, which has certainly been acceptable or accepted, and in interviews and in you and I communicating like this.
But are you are you seeing it widespread in many other areas? So I think it is. I think it it it does come come down to, from from the medical standpoint, certainly clinical trials, we've had to become a little more creative and adapt to the virtual environment. I think whether it's the number of visits that are required now, some of those can be done from a telehealth telemedicine type, perspective. I think from the MSL engagement, it's similar.
I think even just the way that we engage KOLs are different within the platforms. I mean, it's we have to start thinking things differently. Like, maybe it's it's throwing an article, a recent article that that, is now available and giving ownership to or saying, hey, doctor so and so would love for you to to circle or or walk us through, the key areas of this. So it's we we have to find different ways to to engage, but there's certainly the virtual space allows us to do that.
I think that there there's gonna be a slow adaptation there, based off the company philosophy. But there's so many ways to make this, an interactive platform, AI, etcetera. So I'm excited about it because this has really pushed us to it, but I think we we've still just scratched the surface in in many ways. Yeah. For sure. And how how has the change in travel, having less travel, affected your MSLs? So it's it's it's been, complex, I guess, would be the way I would define it.
I mean, because you have there's so many different aspects that of this job that can be handled while you're on the road, while you're on a plane, administrative things. I think it's required us to become, more intentional with, the administrative things, especially when you balance, work and family. Mhmm. I think that that's been I think that was an initial struggle because now we're behind a desk for the majority of the day. So I think it's required some intentionality with that.
We've actually, partnered with, a vendor to help help guide some of that just to give different food for thought of ways to structure things, whether it's blocking off 2 hours a day for just email. I'm not gonna look at emails Mhmm. All over this time of day, or I'm gonna focus here.
But there's been some there's been some freedom with that, but I think, there's certainly that other component depending on where you live as far as if you have kids in the home or, different family things to tend to. So, it's created, it's forced us to get better and more efficient in the things that we do. How do you think what's it gonna be like as things continue to open up? Just from your in your perspective for your team? Do you feel like there's gonna be travel reluctance?
Or do you think everybody's gonna be really excited to get back out there? It it's been a it's been a progression. I think, we we have, obviously, MSLs in the in the New York, the Boston, Texas, obviously, the West Coast as well. And I think that there has been, I think everyone is is evolved to they're ready to get back out. This is part of the job that they they signed signed up for was that direct field engagement. I think it's gonna be, we're gonna do it with caution.
I think that we're gonna make it available obviously to, the MSL's comfort level, the KOL's comfort level. But I think that now there's a, there was a mindset of I this is gonna be a challenge from the video from a virtual perspective to really, to really make it make a difference. But, I mean, learning nonverbal cues, keying in to different like, the the map behind behind your, on your walls, different cues that we we've learned to be able to adjust to that environment.
Mhmm. I think that there's gonna be there there's a hunger to get back out there, but it it's just gonna take some time just dependent on the the specialty that you you actually, you call on and engage. Sure. And I think it's a lot of it's gonna be dictated from the KOLs. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So there's not gonna our approach is not to we we've been able to figure out and navigate this and actually become very proficient in the virtual space.
And so, really empowering our team to be CEOs of their territory and how they're able to execute that is we're gonna leave that to them. We trust them. They wanna do well, and they're gonna figure out ways to do it. And if that's from a virtual space, or if it's it's face to face, we're gonna support them in any way that we can. Yep. And like anything else, it's gonna evolve, and there's gonna be challenges. And, you know, no one expected COVID. No one expected what was gonna happen from COVID.
We also are now looking into the abyss of the future, kinda not knowing exactly what that's gonna look like. So what did what advice do you have for MSLs to stay focused and stay on track and, and continue to be that trusted advisor? Yeah. So it is. I mean, we, Tom, you've seen over the years, there's become more and more of an importance that field medical can bring to to within the industry.
These KOLs have very limited amount of time, and they wanna be able to engage from a scientific standpoint. I think it's really important to align on several different things. Really, it's okay to step back, to take a breath, to see what exactly a KOL needs. I think, you know, we were given 2 ears and a mouth. I think that there's reason for that.
I think the more we can active listen, like, that would be one of the, first things that I would do, identifying a gap that they need, and then really talking with with within internal leadership too to see, okay, where where can we make an impact that that becomes that bridge, if you will, questions that will support them in their role and still bring back value to the company.
I think that that's essential to have, and will really help people as they're thinking about their performance, their success to be able to stay, to to stay the course. I think you've gotta be adaptable and, to be able to take that feedback that you receive and share it internally, to help kind of dig, navigate what the next 3 months are gonna look like, much less, the next year years to come. So, be really intentional to listen and validate and bring that information back.
That would be the my, if I could say it succinctly, that would be my direction that would give. Awesome. So you start traveling again. You get on the plane. You open up your your laptop or your your tablet, your iPad, you pop up Netflix. What are you watching? Give us some what what series do you watch? Maybe it's Hulu. What what what's your what's what's your poison? I'm a big Netflix guy. So we go back and forth between streaming services.
We've had to we've we've navigated that through for kids and things like that between Disney plus and Yep. And Netflix, gone back and forth. Tom, I'm a 20 4 fan. I don't know if you've ever watched that. Not new. Yeah. Really enjoy that as as a time to decompress, but I can I can certainly do that watching some things like this is us and other Yeah? I think I can go multiple multiple directions, but that's kind of my go to is is the 24 series. So there's only 8 series 8 seasons.
So it keeps me busy. No. Those are cliffhanger not cliffhangers, but they keep you on the edge of your seat. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Good recommendation. Yeah. I went down this rabbit hole of, so I I and I I love everything. I like series. I like jumping in stuff. I love documentaries too. So I watched this documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, and it's I heard all that. I gotta tell. I'm never gonna eat fish again.
I'm I'm like, we're over overfishing by such a drastic level that by 2048, there's gonna be no fish left in the ocean. So now I'm all sad. I feel bad for the dolphins and all the fish. I watched this thing. It was actually really, really well done. It was really good. It's really scary, though. It's all about commercial fishing and, and pollution pollution.
But then somehow I went from that to this documentary called the octopus teacher, and it's about this guy, the middle aged guy that lives in South Africa, and he dives. Literally, it's in his backyard. And he meets an octopus. Like, literally comes across an octopus and went back every day and evaluated this octopus. Now we have film crew, and the guy was in the music, the film industry.
And for, like, a year, he went back every day, and he has this incredible footage of the life of this octopus and learned all this stuff about it. And, it's an just an incredible I don't know how I found it, but so, anyway, I went down this rabbit hole of, like, ocean documentaries. But I will say that some of it is very compelling. Some of it's very sad. So if you really love to eat fish, don't watch it. Yeah. So what do you eat now? What what's your how do you shift to your diet?
You know, it's funny. I was never really a big fish eater. So it didn't matter. It didn't matter. I'm not a big fish guy anyway. But, yeah. So I wanna first of all, I wanna thank you for coming on. You've been great. I know we digress. I like to have a little fun sometimes. We digress, but this is tremendous information, really good information. I hope that people got a lot out of it. And listen, you're welcome to come back anytime. You're awesome, Chad. Appreciate it.
Tom, I I really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks for letting me, share the success of my team. It's been a lot of fun. I've, really enjoyed your podcast. I think you have you have you have tapped into something that's really remarkable, and it's definitely provided value to, field medical medical affairs at large, specifically the MSL. So thank you for your work. Thanks for thanks for thinking of me, and, would love to come back anytime. Without a doubt, man. You're the best. I appreciate it.
And, keep in touch, buddy. Have a good day. Alright. You do the same. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future. And feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.