Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Maria Abunto. She is medical science liaison at Exact Sciences, and we talk about her path from a clinician to medical device MSL and beyond. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube and Instagram and LinkedIn, of course. Thanks for joining. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Maria. How are you doing today? Thanks for joining me. Hey. Hi, Tom. Thanks for having me.
Yeah. I'm excited to have you. It's been, you know, what, couple years since we met, like, 2 years ago? I think it's more than that. I think it's actually 3 years at the MSL Society meeting in Las Vegas. Time flies when you're having fun and when you're in a pandemic. Right? Right. Yeah. Things change, but, you know, I think we're still connecting somehow. We are. And and I'm I'm glad that you reached out, and I'm glad that we're reconnecting. You had a great idea for a topic.
You your background is, I think it's really interesting, and it shows, it shows an interesting path that I wanna talk about, and it brings us into I haven't had anybody on this podcast that has talked about medical device MSLs. So I think that that's gonna be an interesting kind of topic to to to go over a little bit. But before we do that, let's go through, like, an introduction. If you could just introduce yourself and tell everybody who you are and and what you're up to these days.
Okay. Great. Well, thank you. First of all, Tom, I just wanna say congratulations on your 1 year anniversary, the MSL Talk podcast. So what a milestone. And this is my first time on your show, so this is exciting for me. My background is in medicine and public health, and I graduated from the University of Pittsburgh in 2016, went on to the NIH as an epidemiologist conducting colorectal cancer research. And then, 2 years after that, I went to a medical device company, focusing on stroke care.
And then, you know, just that contract ended just at the time of the pandemic. And, it was a blessing actually because then I was able to get, into a role that I really wanted at Exact Sciences as a medical science liaison. Yeah. Yeah. No. I, I think you're in a great place. Quick shout out to my buddy, Maria Erso, one of the original guests on this podcast. I know is that your company, so quick shout out to her. So let's go back.
So you're in, you know, clinical practice, and then you transitioned to industry. So how did that go? How did how did you do that? Yeah. So I was a former medical director for a busy family medicine practice, and I always knew that I wanted to be more than just a medical director. My journey really began in 2016 when I obtained that master in public health. And that was such a great decision for me, Tom.
And it was a wise investment where I worked really hard to increase my knowledge and skill set and discovered that I really loved learning as an adult student. And so in academia is where I found an opportunity to expand my network, and that's what it's all about. Right? And I had a mentor in grad school who, you know, after graduation, invited me to join his lab at the NIH. And then that's when I got into colorectal cancer research as an epidemiologist.
But I knew that research was not for me for, you know, as a it was a stepping stone. So I had first learned about that MSO role while I was the NIH and researched everything about it. Mhmm. And, you know, you and I know about the MSL Society. We're we're members and, you know, an active member actually, and enrolled in their training. And that's, you know, that's how I discovered and learned about it. And the more I learned about it, the more it actually appealed to me.
You know, building those solid relationships with the MSLs and MSL leaders, Samuel Dyer, the CEO. You know, everyone's just so inspiring and motivating. So eventually, you know, they became my mentors. And I think, you know, some great friendships have formed and developed along the way. So, you know, some of who you and I are friends with and such a small world. So you are a clinician. You wanna get into industry. You start to do some research and find out how you can you can break in.
You created connections, mentors. You wind up getting into industry. Do you do you think your clinical practice background was a good foundation? I mean, obviously, I would think you would, but tell tell me about that. Why do you think clinicians make good field medical, professionals? Right. So that's that's a great, question because I didn't really know which path to go. And during my job search, I hired a career coach, and so that really helped me. She was also an MD. Mhmm.
It's a organization that she handles is called Physicians Helping Physicians. Mhmm. So that really helped me jump start my career. And she helped after 10 months of trying to break into the role. I landed my first job as an MSL in industry. But I believe that clinicians are good candidates for field medical positions because of their knowledge, right? Their expertise and years of field medical experience.
And because most MSL positions, they require a clinical degree in life sciences, such as an MD, PhD, or PharmD. So you know that these people have extensive experience in clinical medicine and or research and are very smart and very knowledgeable in their therapeutic area, which sets them apart. And it sounds like you your success, a lot of it came from you going outside of yourself to find mentors, coaches, and go above and beyond.
So do you think that was a big part of you being able to break into industry? Absolutely. And I think it's really growth really happens when you actually go outside of your comfort zone. And it was, something that was I knew that I had to proactively do was to build my network. And that, because I I all I knew was really about medicine and practicing. And then also, you know, the fact that there's there's a society that, you know, you can actually, you know, join and be a part of.
And it's like a family. And I think that that's where I started, was to build my network. And then one thing leads to another and, you know, you just start knowing people, but then there's positions that open and they actually contact you as well. And you have to start somewhere. Exactly. You have to start somewhere to build your career. And then the next thing you know, 15 or 20 years go by, and you have a good story to tell.
So let's jump into the middle piece, which is you you get a position as a medical device MSL. Tell me what that's all about. A lot of people don't know the difference between a medical device MSO, a therapeutic MSO. So if you can help us with that, that'd be great. Yeah. Sure. Okay. So first of all, I wanna explain that one of the myths about the MSO role is being a salesperson, and it is not. In fact, the MSO is independent, from commercial sales or marketing.
And the primary purpose of my role in medical device was really to foster ethical peer relationships with physicians and key opinion leaders or KOLs. So you're supposed to do that with professionalism and integrity, and then you reflect, fair and balanced medically. So, and what that means is that in medical device, I was answering a lot of off label questions.
And since there was a lot of off label use for our products, as the MSL, I was qualified to proactively discuss and respond to scientific questions from physicians with information that is scientific and medical and not promotional. So it differs also from a lot of, you know, what the traditional MSL is. Since my role was a 1 year contract, it was easier to land a job that way as an MSL if you have no experience.
But being in medical device, different from a traditional MSL in that, the roles are not as common in medical device like they are in pharma or in biotech. And it also differed in how regulations are, especially in Europe. So where the regulatory body is called EU MDR or European Medical Device Regulation. So which is like the FDA, but they are more strict. And then also the territory I covered. Oh my gosh. It was, you know, US and Europe.
So since I was the, the 1st MSL hired for the company, I covered US and Europe and traveled, like, free COVID 80% of the time. So I'm sure you're we're calling on different KOLs and Yes. Institutions. So who who were you actually calling on? So they were neurovascular, surgeons. They were also endovascular surgeons, and there were also, it was in the neurovascular space. So that was mostly what I was focusing on, stroke care. So we had devices Yeah. And it's it's with aneurysms.
And your your job is to do more inservicing, education. Are you still providing data? So what do what exactly do you do with these these neurosurgeons? Okay. So what a typical day would look like as an MSL for medical device company, it actually involves, like, 4 key functions, and it's all about adding value. So one is educating. So, for example, since I was the 1st MSL in the company, it was important to educate everyone about the MSL role, as well as educate the KOLs about the product.
And then relationship building, which is what I loved most about my job. I fostered relationships within the company and externally with the physicians. So during my meetings, I would have discussions about disease states and clinical research data that we did, and update them as well and respond to the physician's questions. And sometimes they would want to do an investigator initiated study, so that's something that we would collaborate on.
And then I functioned as a conduit gathering intel and key insights, like, during these meetings, and then which I bring those intel back to medical affairs team. And then finally, even, you know, within working cross functionally with other departments in the company like marketing, I support their messaging on the data and actionable insights. So that allows us to drive value for the products in our portfolio. So it's really similar. It sounds like Yes. Very similar parallel type of job.
Yes. Focus is a little different, but very, very similar. Absolutely. And you did that for a little while. And then did you get to a point where you started to get the itch to wanna do something else? Did somebody recruit you to become a therapeutic MSL? How did you transition from that to a therapeutic MSL? Okay. So my transition from medical device to Biotech is such a great story and one that I feel like has come full circle. So let's go back about 3 years, ago in 2018.
And when I was at the NIH and I just started researching the MSL role, and I met an MSL from Exact Sciences at one of the conferences. So where where I was presenting, and she came up to me. And when I found out she worked for Exact Sciences, I told her, I've been following the company for some time. And then it was then that she told me that an MSL position recently opened up on her team. But when it came time for me to apply, the position had already filled. So bummer. Right?
So then fast forward 3 years later to 2020 during COVID 19, which was just around the time my contract ended at that medical device company. It was perfect timing because the MSL position at Exact Sciences that I was interested opened up again in my territory. And that's when I applied, and this time I finally got in. That's awesome. Yeah. It just goes to show you that this really is a marathon and not a sprint. It is. How important it is to develop relationships.
Let's just say you're at that conference and you don't go out of your way to or that person didn't go out of their way to meet you. You didn't maintain that relationship or have that to to really put you in the right place at the right time. Right? Exactly. That's great. I love that story. And, you know, thank you. And I do too. And I actually said that during my interview, and I think, yeah, that was something that was, memorable and lasting.
I just wanted to say too that this role is very different than my previous role in medical device. For instance, from the therapeutic area to the KOLs and the job function. So my current role is with the, an innovative company that really changes the way we think about detecting and treating cancer. And so because of my previous work in cancer at the NIH in research, I felt that this role is a perfect fit and it really resonates with me.
So, really, when you want to look for a job, it's really one that really feels that it's just the right fit for you. Yeah. And you kind of felt I mean, you were following the company, but you also kind of fell into it Yeah. To an extent. Was it were you following them because of the therapeutic focus? What was the reason you were actually following them to begin with?
Well, because colorectal cancer is really, one that I, you know, work, extensively on at the NIH, but at the same time, it was something that I've always, felt that it is a, it is the most preventable to cancer, but it is the least prevented. So this is why, you know, I I focused on that and early age onset. You've know you've heard in the news lately, you know, in the past year, Chadwick Boseman, passing away at an early age, in his forties.
And, this is just a disease that is, if detected early, it's 90% survival. And if it's not, you know, if it's detected at late stage, it re really, your survival rate decreases dramatically. So prevention is key. Yep. And so it wasn't really coincidental. It was something that you have been following. You've been seeking them out. You you prepared yourself, positioned yourself, and you you put yourself in the right place at the right time, which I think is so important.
Yeah. Not and it and for anybody, for someone who's aspiring to be an MSL eventually or someone who's currently an MSL and wants to take their career into a different direction or a different company or a different therapeutic area, you really have to work at it. And it sounds like that's what you did. Yes. And it takes time. I think really you have to be patient. It's just been about, you know, a couple years now when we first met. I was still just an aspiring MSL.
So really have to love your homework, research, but really be passionate about what you, you really wanna do in in the therapeutic area. Yeah. So it's been a few years, and and you're you're doing really well. You've you've found success. You're doing what you love to do. You were a medical device MSL. Now you're an MSL for a few years. So what advice do you have for MSLs to find success in this day and age, if you had to sit somebody down?
If you have to talk to your younger self, what would you what would you say? Well, I think there you know, that's 2 part in that. You know, there are a lot of lessons that I've learned, but then there are also some key success that I've taken along with me. I think one of the important, lessons that I've learned early on is that every company operates differently. So learn the rules of engagement early. I mean, there's so much variability in this MSL role depending on the company they work for.
So whatever rules and guardrails apply to one company may not always be the same for the next company. So it all depends. And then another great lesson I learned, Tom, from Samuel Dyer, the CEO of the MSL Society, you know, he advised me to choose to work for a boss who is willing to be, your coach and coach you and mentor you rather than choosing the company to work for. I've never heard that before, but I always remember this when I was interviewing, and it has worked well for me.
So I've an awesome manager now, as you mentioned, her name. And so I just, so happy to be where I'm at. And then finally, the other lesson that I learned is that having a life outside of MSL work where you can pay it forward. And I think that that's so gratifying. You know, it's so important to stay humble and grounded, and volunteering, helps me do that, do just that.
And so I I volunteer a lot of my time as a mentor for not only for the MSL Society, but also, as an alumni for the University of Pittsburgh. Yeah. You're doing a lot of stuff. I love it. You're doing a lot of stuff. So what advice do you have for MSLs that are trying to find their own level of success as it relates to so we're in the pandemic right now, and I would like to talk about that because I get so many questions from people that are asking for best practices or what's working well.
So what advice do you have for current MSLs that are out there, they're doing their job, and they're trying to hit their numbers, they're trying to find success, and they're, you know, they're having challenges because of this current pandemic. Is there anything creative that you've been doing that you might be able to help other folks with? Well, I think for 1 is, get putting yourself out there. Right?
Just like this podcast allows me to really have an, you know, a reach that is goes beyond than just my laptop. So, really putting yourself out there, and what you've done. I think building your network is key. Having the the right mentors. I think building your network starting on not only LinkedIn, but joining the MSL society or other societies where you can start meeting, leadership leaders, some of these leaders, the speakers.
I think that that's very important, not just in, in your network, but other people's network, providing introductions. For instance, if people ask me, is there a job out there that you think that would be a good fit? I always send them some posts, that I think would, you know, be helpful. Or if one opens up in my company or in my territory, for even for a different company, then I would forward those information to them. And it's because I have met them and they're interested in the role.
I usually, do that and keep in contact with them. I think the advice also that I could give is to just keep in contact with your network and your mentors. You just never know when an opportunity will rise. And I think when you're looking for a job, there is, you know, the pandemic right now, but it doesn't mean that it won't, you know, it won't be here forever. So I think it will be, other jobs will be opening up, and soon.
And so, you know, with the with q 1 and q 2, we're going into, you know, over a year now in the pandemic, more more jobs are opening up. But I think it's really building your network, putting yourself out there, and just really trying to expand your reach. Yeah. That's great advice. And and, it's interesting because we don't know what's gonna happen next. Exactly.
We're looking into what we think is going to be a transition to the old days, which is hopefully going to be a return to in person meetings Mhmm. And conferences and congresses and adverts and all that other stuff, but we don't know. So how do you prepare for that? Are you still under the impression that there's going to be a lot of virtual engagement, continued virtual engagement? Do you think it's gonna be a hybrid moving forward?
Or do you think that by this time next year, we're gonna be right back to where we were before the pandemic? What's your opinion on that? Yeah. That's that's a good question. And I think, I'd have to say with the vaccination programs, in place now, and majority of the population will be, vaccinated, I think people are more confident in going out and attending these conference. I believe it will be more of a hybrid. I think that actually you can capture more of your audience that way.
So the opportunity to be in person, but also the opportunity to do it, virtual. I think that you could get the most or you could optimize it the most that way. But, yes, I think in person, there's, you know, it it really is, I think the most impactful if it's in person, especially when you are able to shake a person's hand, or even just greet them and say hello.
That's, you know, that's, I think, leaves a lasting impression, but it doesn't mean that we can't have both being being that it can also be virtual. And then, follow-up with an in person meeting hopefully in the future. Well, video is a great tool, and I think it's been adopted. Everybody's using it. It provides this real quick access. And I think that in the future, we're probably gonna wind up going in whatever direction we're being led. You know, where do the KOLs want us?
Do do they want to to meet live? Do they wanna meet virtually? Do they wanna communicate via email? Do they wanna communicate via text? So because of that, does that change your job and how you interact as far as what questions you ask KOLs, how you access them. Obviously, you wanna follow their lead. So how do you approach them in regard to the interaction portion of the job? Yeah. So I really leave it up to them. I, you know, I do respect their their time and their space.
So usually it's through emails, and I do a preplanning prior to going to conferences, for example. And I will try to reach out or even on LinkedIn, just, you know, give a little message on there and and let them know that I'm attending and look forward to meeting them. And if I get a reply, then great. And if not, then I'll just follow-up, you know, that was a great meeting. And usually it's, you know, I I have the the providers or the KOLs.
I take their lead, you know, if they prefer to talk over the phone, then that's great too, or or email. But a lot of what's trending now is really telemedicine and telehealth. So that's that's what the that's what the norm is as far as for patients and, well, that's what it's going to be, as far as getting access, those that are fearful of coming in and seeing the physicians. So we, you know, we see that trend, and we also follow that as, industry.
And what's what's the directive just out of curiosity, what's the directive from your organization right now? When are they saying that they want you to get back out there? Obviously, we're in we're almost in April. Yeah. So we're getting into that second quarter, and we're looking at the future of life with vax the vaccines and hopefully herd immunity. Has there been a directive on when they want you to be back out there?
Well, actually, we've already been out in the field, Tom, and it actually was, given, you know, that direction was given last year, but it's also, dependent in our team, what we're comfortable with. And so we are tested on a weekly basis and we have to be, and to make sure that we have, negative tests prior to going out into the field. And we par we follow proper protocol.
And we also make sure that when we go and visit a site or visit, you know, a physician that they're comfortable with us coming in. Some places are still not allowing vendors to come in, but, you know, our company is, you know, because we are field based, with sales and, commercial and also medical science liaisons, we are allowed to be out in the field already. That's great because I'm hearing so many different things and there's Really?
Okay. And I there are we have there are certain folks that I've spoken to organizations that they're not close to allowing their MSLs to get back out there yet. And then there's organizations that, like you just said, that have been out there. It's a case per case basis. It really depends on certain things. Some organizations aren't allowing their MSLs to fly. They have to drive everywhere. So we're seeing a lot of different things.
We're also seeing a lot of different things as it relates to metrics and KPIs. Yes. How has that changed for you guys? Well, I think it, it the metrics have changed in such a way that, of course, you know, we have to adapt and be flexible. And I think that's a primary, function too, of an MSL is to be very, adaptable. And so we just change the metrics in a way that still reflects some kind of engagement, whether it be virtual or whether it be in person.
And, you know, it can it can also be, you know, out, you know, if, if they're comfortable, having dinner discussions, but it really depends and, you know, per company, but in our company, I think what we're comfortable with, I think that we are allowed to be in front of a physician. And these metrics are based on our interactions.
And so we, you know, we enter them, based on, you know, the topic of discussion and, you know, whether we're, talking about the disease state or any questions that they have about our, inclusion and exclusion criteria in our studies or even our our products. Awesome. Great. Well, it's exciting. It's exciting to see that we're starting to get back to the old days a little bit because I miss it. I really can't wait to start Yeah. Again and get everything, folks. So that's exciting.
So last question. If you had one piece of advice to give to an MS a younger MSL or an aspiring MSL, what would it be? I think, I think the biggest advice I would give is to really be good at seizing opportunities. Right? Be willing to take the risk because great opportunities don't come every day. So it's important to recognize and seize opportunities in new ways that map out your path. You know, I went from being, in medicine to going back to grad school and now working in the industry.
So you have to choose a career you love. Right? Give it the best there is in you, seize opportunities, and, be a member of the team. Awesome. Yeah. Good stuff, Maria. Well, I am hope hopefully, I'm gonna see you soon at a conference or somewhere. Yeah. This was great. I'm really I'm glad that you were able to join me, and I appreciate, you know, all you do and, look forward to keeping in touch. Yeah. Just one last, plug in I wanted to say.
So I posted on LinkedIn, how you can celebrate, medical the international, Medical Science Liaison Day, and that's on March, 27th on Sunday. So you can show your pride in the profession by sharing the international MSL day banner. Take a photo of you showing off your MSL pride and include a printable sign. And and just like I'm doing now, you know, tell you a story of how you became an MSL and why you love the MSL career. Awesome. Yeah. That's great stuff. I almost forgot about that.
Yeah. Yep. I'm glad you brought that up. That's good stuff. Well, we'll definitely do that, and, we'll keep in touch. Thanks for thanks again. Thank you so much, Tom. Talk soon. Take care and stay safe. You too. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future. And feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.