Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. I'm very excited to invite back two veteran MSL Talk podcast guests. Both Mitch D'Rosario and Deanna Tucker are here. They've both been on this podcast before. They're amazing guests that I couldn't wait to have back on. And we're gonna talk today about finding MSL success in cross therapeutic transitions, which I think is an amazing topic.
And I will say that both of my guests are speaking on their own opinions and not the opinions of their company, so we gotta get this disclaimer out of the way. And let me invite you guys on. So, Mitch and Diana, welcome. Thank you. It's so great to see you all and to be back on the podcast. Excited to talk about this topic. Thank you for having us. I'm excited to be on here and also to share the spotlight with Diana as well. Yeah. Yeah. No. This is, all star cast we have here, so I'm excited.
So let's start with what goes into the decision to switch therapeutic areas as an MSL, and what factors should be considered before making this transition? So, Diana, why don't I start with you? Yeah. You know, speaking from experience, because I have changed therapeutic areas twice at least, in my career, and I never thought I would do that because my formal training was in HIV medicine. And, I did that in clinical practice as well as one of my first MSL jobs.
And there was a point in time where there wasn't a lot of drug development going on in HIV, but hepatitis c was really coming. And the the product that we had at that at my current company was pretty far back in the pipeline. And I got a job offer, or I got a an outreach from a recruiter who said, hey. There's this company. They're gonna they are going to launch, one of the first protease inhibitors in hep c, and I thought, well, they're ready to go now.
And, you know, so I decided to take the leap. It was scary because HIV was so known to me. You know, I'd worked at it in my clinical practice. I had done it in industry for five years. But I was also ready to learn something new, and so it was really just, like, the perfect timing. So for me, I went from virus to virus. So in a way, you know, you you you still know some of the terminology.
When I when I, ultimately left virology and liver disease and went over to neuromuscular, that was also a bit scary because I knew nothing about it. But it was a good opportunity, and I learned a lot. Awesome. Along the same line, I've switched, from my formal training in neuroscience to as an MSL. My first role was with Shuri Hyder, in ophthalmology, and then quickly switched over to another company in ophthalmology, and then during COVID switched over to hematology.
And I'm back in ophthalmology now. And for me, often, it is, looking at opportunities, where a product might be. I I think I've started to learn that I am addicted to launches. I love launching products. I love learning about the barriers that health systems might have to new molecules and, learning from, the HCPs and the health systems and bringing it back to the company so we can change strategy if needed.
And for me, it's it's often looking at opportunities to even take lateral moves that allows me to grow as an MSL while still living in the territory that I want to live in for personal and family reasons. Yeah. And it's awesome. I I'm I'm so glad we're starting off with that question so that we could kinda set the tone that both of you had this experience for different reasons, and, and I think it's a more common thing.
So if there's anybody else out there that's listening that either has been thinking about doing this or maybe has done it, you're not alone. This is a thing, which is why we're talking about it. But I think there's a lot of people that are out there that are maybe worried that they have to stay in the same therapeutic area for the rest of their career. But that's obviously not the case. So let's talk about those people, and let's just say that someone's looking to transition.
How would they effectively go about a transition to a different therapeutic space, especially if they don't have experience in that space? So, Mitch, you wanna start with this one? Sure. For me, it was, it was daunting, moving from ophthalmology to hematology. It was a different therapeutic area. The HCP, are different. It's a different type of question that you're asking. So for me, it was, I think I was lucky that a hiring manager wanted to take the risk on me.
But, also, I think when you switch therapeutic areas, you come in with different perspectives. You ask a lot of what ifs, and you ask a lot of, well, it worked in this therapeutic area. Might it work in the other one as well?
And when I switch back from hematology to ophthalmology, that's exactly what I'm actually appreciating is I am bringing all of these learnings back to ophthalmology and maybe different ways that we were thinking of maybe think of different ways that we can think of a situation. The biggest, unlock for me has been this idea of the hedgehog versus the fox mentality.
And what that talks about is hedgehogs are very focused on a unit on a vision or, mentality where they feel that they are the experts in that field. You know? I I know a lot of, MSLs who've excelled in their careers in that therapeutic area, and they have that depth of knowledge. The other part of it is the fox who's more maybe intellectually curious and is interested in trying to see other ways and other therapeutic areas that they're interested in.
And I think having that balance of both where you can switch your mindset from being hedgehog where you are the expert, the subject matter expert, and when needed, be able to switch back to being a fox and be intellectually curious and trying to make find patterns where, a clear pattern does not exist. I think that is important. So for anyone who's listening, I think, it is important for you to ask yourself at this time, at this point in my career, do I wanna be a hedgehog? Do I wanna be a fox?
Or do I wanna go back to being a hedgehog? Mitch, you always have good analogies. There's always a good story or a good analogy that you throw in there. I love it. So, Diana, what strategies let's talk about how MS cells can be strategic and quickly gain scientific and or clinical expertise in a new scientific or therapeutic area.
Yeah. You know, especially I think, you know, when I was listening to Mitch kind of talk about how he approached, you know, taking on HemOnc from an ophthalmology background, And it can all be very daunting and, but as an MSL and a skilled MSL, you know how to look at the primary literature. You know, you know, like, I remember looking at some of our slide decks that we had, and you start looking at what is referenced in the slide deck.
What is the scientific communications platform that the company has put together to kinda narrow your your search because you can get so overwhelmed thinking, oh, I'm gonna read this or I'm gonna read that. If there are guidelines that are published, by different societies on how to treat that particular specialty or whatnot. Like, when I went to hepatitis c, you know, the double ASLD has a has hep c guidelines. You know?
So you look at kind of, like, what is steering clinicians in their decision making. You know, obviously, you've gotta learn everything about your product, and ask a lot of questions because, you know, oftentimes, you may be back filling a position in a team that is a new therapeutic area for you, and, hopefully, you are linked with a buddy, and they can really help you fill in some of that some of those spaces that you think you feel like going on, but not sure.
And, also, oftentimes, on that team, there is someone who has been a clinician in that particular space, and I would definitely have you reach out to them and just say, give me a day in the life of what it's like to treat this.
What are the how do you, you know, what questions should I be asking and thinking about from an HCP perspective or, you know, an AP or a NPPA pharmacist and have them kind of give you that clinical picture that you didn't necessarily have because, you know, I never followed a hep c patient from a liver perspective. I followed from a coinfection standpoint, but understanding how somebody really manages the liver part of that.
I don't know how often this is done anymore, but back in the day, we used to be able to do a preceptorship with clinicians, and they would kind of take you under their wing. Even if you can't do that on a formal basis, like, if you know an HCP really well, then, you know, you can just say, hey. I'm starting in this new therapeutic area, and I'm learning, but I've got a lot of questions. Could you help me?
So I think just using those MSL skills that you use in Excel that your last therapeutic area really transfers over to how you're gonna approach this. And I think as long as we get our ego out of the way and realize that we are now learning mode, we are not the expert, but we're gonna be experts at some point in time, and we're gonna ask a lot of questions. I I so agree. I think humility is so important when you're making this cross therapeutic, transition.
So, my manager who gave me the chance in hematology, came by one of the things he said. Mitch, during your interview, you never said that you're an expert in this. Right? You always were eager to learn more, ask questions, but you're never saying, I will by the end of the training, I'll be an expert. Because we're, with and being an MSL, you're continuously learning. Right? Even if you're in an established role, you're constantly learning about new guidelines that are coming in.
You're learning about the HCPs. You're learning about the health systems. There might be mergers and acquisitions that might be happening, and you're constantly learning how that influences, how they are treating their patients. Right? So we can talk about the science of medicine, but what really excites me at the is the art of medicine. Right? When when we when we hear how when the products are in the market or even in the clinical trials, how they think of treating their patients.
I think that's really important. So I agree with Diana about the ego. I think it's really important for someone to be humble when they're going into these, transitions. Yep. And, you know, as I think about the transition, one of the things I wonder is, what about k well access? How does that differ therapeutically, and how do MS cells adapt to that? For me, in certain therapeutic areas, access can be very different, very difficult sometimes.
You might be, trying to set up a meeting with someone who's in hospital system where there's a lot of gatekeepers and access might be hard. You might be going into a private practice in a community setting where access is really easy, and they're very eager to learn from you and and share with you what they're experiencing with products in the market. I wanna share one example where cross therapeutic, coverage really helped me. So I started off in ophthalmology.
There was this one physician, a retina specialist that I had built a lot of, I had had built a connection with, and we would we we had a text connection where I could just text him any questions that I might have, and he would respond back. When I switched to hematology in the same hospital system, I realized that it was really difficult to, meet with the oncologist there. So even to bring clinical trials to them, it was even hard to set up a meeting.
And so one of the things I did was I I reached out to the retina specialist, specialist, and I said, hey. Would you be open to setting up an introduction? And he was so, kind and gracious. He he sent out an email to the CEO of the practice and the oncologist. And within a year, that oncology practice And within a year, that oncology practice what was on our clinical trials. If anything, they were going to be the first patient initiated for our trial.
And so that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't transitioned between therapeutic areas. Those are very far in between, but, I think it's still relevant where as a company, we start thinking about different ways of connecting with an HCP. So what about as as I'm thinking about some of the like, what are the other challenges? So someone makes the decision that they wanna do this. Right? Obviously, access is one of the things that comes to your mind as, okay. Well, that might be different.
What are some of the other challenges that someone's gonna face when they make this decision to switch therapeutic areas? And what advice do you have? You know, I think that I encourage people to change therapeutic areas. And even as a hiring manager, when I look at someone's resume or CV and you see that they've changed and they've likely been successful in those areas, I think it it shows that they're willing to put themselves out there. They have the aptitude to learn many different things.
And so I always thought it was in my mind, it was a very positive thing to see that, you know, there's there's been, a lot of different learnings along the way. I think that, you know, probably what's challenging most is being humble and just realizing that, you know, you're not the rock star right now that you may have been in that therapeutic area, but there's nothing that says you can't become a rock star. And I think you have to give yourself time.
You know, when I've mentored brand new MSLs coming in, whether they came from the therapeutic area or not, I always say give yourself a year to be an MSL before you make the decision is MSL right for me or not because there's so much. And, you know, by the time you learn your company and you go through all your SOPs, you learn all the information you're supposed to, and you start getting out in the field and people start responding to you and you're starting to establish those relationships.
It just takes time. So, really, it's know that you're in a learning mode. Know that you're gonna learn this and you're gonna knock it out of the park. You're going to get good relationships with KOLs. You've done it before. They're human beings and, you know, just be like, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it.
And I think just have a positive attitude and don't don't get too discouraged, because it can be discouraging, especially whenever, you know, you're you're used to not having to work as hard because you were so successful in your previous role. Three part for me. I think, one is to get comfortable with discomfort. It is hard to make change. Right? And so it's really important for you to kind of ask yourself, what is the why are you changing? Why are you changing therapeutic area?
Which leads to my second point, which is, any hiring manager, I think, or most hiring managers, the question that they're asking during the interview is, what are you running away from, or what are you running towards? And I think it's important for you to then go back to your values, your internal values, and your situation to think about what is it that's driving you towards that change rather than what are you running away from.
So for me, that was very clear why I switched from ophthalmology to hematologist because I wanted to challenge myself. I wanted to go into a a therapeutic area that is very difficult to break into. And then the reason for switching back to ophthalmology is because I knew there might be future launches that are coming up, and that's something that I wanted to be a part of. So those are things that are really important.
And then the third thing third thing that I would say also is, lean in on people. So I think that's important as Diana mentioned, having those buddy systems, having people outside of the company to support you through your decision makings. There have been multiple times where I've actually reached out to Diana asking for career advice, and, I've been very appreciative of it as well. Oh, that's a good point.
We all have our networks where it's like, oh, I know somebody who is in this therapeutic area, or I know somebody who's taken a leap on a different job. So it's very powerful. Yeah. I mean, I think that's key. I think leveraging your network is really important when making transitions. I also think it's important to leverage your transferable skills and your experience and your expertise to help in that transition so that you could show value in that therapeutic that new therapeutic space.
You guys wanna talk about that a little bit and how people can really lean into and leverage their transferable skills and experience? Yeah. For sure. You know, I, when I was a hiring manager for a very rare disease in neuromuscular, we were not gonna have anybody come apply that had neuromuscular experience. There just wasn't. And so, really, everybody, learned from the ground up.
And I am one of those hiring managers that look on every I read every single page of someone's CV, because I wanna see, you know, what did you do in your master's degree or your PhD. You know, and a good example, you know, in neuromuscular, we had a strong genetics knowledge that we had to have. And lo and behold, one of the girls that I ended up hiring who is amazing has a PhD in genetics, and I thought that would be really great to have, you know, someone who has that level of understanding.
As far as other transferable skills, you're still gonna do your MSL job the same regardless of your therapeutic area. You're still gonna have your list of KOLs. You're still going to, you know, do your pre call planning. You're still gonna do conferences the same. You're just in a different therapeutic space. So, really, all of those MSL skills are gonna transfer nicely, to that to that new area, and that might be something to really highlight whenever you are talking to a hiring manager.
And, you know, they might be trying to decide, you know, is this person's aptitude, you know, good enough to learn, you know, the technical because I think oncology is incredibly technical. It's a whole different language. So, you know, you really have to kinda show how well you are at the basic core MSL skills because that is the same skill set you're gonna learn, you're gonna use to to succeed in your new therapeutic area.
Agreed. So when I switched over to oncology, that I I one of the things I said was I know this MSL role well. I may not know the therapeutic area. And so that's how that's how I think it was that was the process by which I went through and, you know, being humble about not knowing everything about that therapy, and not even act not even trying to act as if I would pick up everything in the first year. Right? I think that's another thing is that you have to be honest to yourself.
I think it also comes into self reflection as well. What are your skill sets? What are your core competencies? Are there things that keep set you apart differently? So as a PhD in genetics, and with a background in neuro, for me, the strengths that I brought to the team was maybe more about biomarkers. So maybe I understand biomarkers better, because of the training that I have. And so leveraging that.
But for that, I needed to self reflect I had to reflect and think about what are the skill sets that I'm bringing that might be different. Oftentimes, you know, when you're interviewing, I think it could be disheartening when you get that no. But oftentimes, it's not because of the personal failure. I think it's because of the team fit that they're looking for. Maybe they have already too many farm days on the team. Maybe they already have too many PhDs on the team.
And so I think one of the mindset shift for me was that even when I'm attempting to switch over to a different team, that a no is not a personal failure. And and and saying that to yourself is really important. And one thing that I would like to add is, you know, when you look at your candidates, you typically have someone who has MSL experience, but maybe not therapeutic area experience and vice versa.
I feel like it is harder to teach people to be good MSLs because we are already dealing with highly, you know, very intelligent people. They've have advanced degrees, doctorates, you know, they have made it through these programs. So we know that they have the ability to learn, you know, science and and whatnot. Sometimes the art of the MSL role is, more difficult to teach.
And so, I've been in a situation where I've chosen someone who is a fantastic MSL because I'm like, I can teach them the science all day long. And and sometimes, like, to Mitch's point, you you know, hiring manager, you know, if you're back filling a position, they will kind of look at the team dynamic and the personalities on the team and just make sure it's a good fit. You know, you may check all the boxes on therapeutic area and whatnot.
The other thing too is if it's a brand new MSL who's coming from the therapeutic area, you wanna make sure that the environment is supportive of a new MSL. You know, it's hard. You wanna be able to set them up for success. And if you're two months from launch and you've gotta get someone in and, you know, they're a brand new MSL, you know, you just wanna make sure that the timing is right for that particular hire. Awesome. Yeah. Mitch, were you gonna say something? I'm sorry.
I had to be in the steamroll you. What if I what if I switch the script on us a little bit and ask you some questions from your perspective? Would that be Go for it. You know, I love Mitch is Mitch is notorious for doing this. He he loves to take control. Go for it. Well, it's not control, but I think it's it's it's a conversation. Like like Tom's perspective. This this is how I get gather my insights. Right? As MSLs, that's our role.
Yep. Are there specific therapeutic areas that are more challenging to transition into from your perspective and and why? Yeah. Well, what we see is that, typically, oncology wants oncology. So when we're working with companies and hiring managers are coming to us, we don't get a lot of requests for people outside of that therapeutic area when it comes to oncology. When it comes to even, like, sometimes even rare diseases, you have folks that are like, hey.
You know, when you're in a rare diseases space, it's different. And we want people that really have experience in knowing what it's like because there's you know, it's a lot fewer patients than they might be used to with other therapeutic areas. But but I think for the most part, there can be, a lot of other areas where and it depends on the hiring manager, I think, more than anything else. But there can be a lot of other areas that there is some flexibility.
And like Diana said, it becomes more about, hey. I want best athlete available. I want the the most talented MSL that's really smart, that has an advanced scientific degree that I could teach the science to. So it really comes down to the to the leader, but there there are some distinctions, and oncology is one of them. Yeah. At my current company, I'm on the virology section, but we do have an oncology division.
And, one of my field director colleagues jumped from virology over to oncology, and I said, you know, how was it? She's a PharmD, incredibly smart, but she said the learning curve was unbelievable. And, you know, so, you know, if anybody, you know, kinda back to that transitioning to a therapeutic area, sometimes it's easier if you're already known at your company and there's an opening on another team to do it that way. But you're right.
Even whenever I was job searching as a candidate, you know, I saw some amazing potential oncology positions and, but, you know, you don't even get you you don't even get an email back. Yeah. I have on oncology experience. It doesn't matter. You know you know what's so one of the things that makes things more challenging now in this current time than even a year ago is artificial intelligence.
Mhmm. Because what's happening now is that companies are building AI into their applicant tracking systems. So now there's filters that are preprogrammed. So, for example, when a job description is written, it's written in such a way that only the resumes that meet a certain amount of keywords criteria wise for that job description they're gonna get in. So let's just say one of the trigger words is oncology.
And and somebody applies to that position, have ten years of MSL experience, but no oncology. They're not even getting into the they're they're getting rejected. They're not even getting into the party. So even if the hiring manager may be open to seeing a candidate from a different therapeutic space, it may not happen because of technology. May and, again, I'm I'm just kinda spitballing here, but that could be one of the other issues.
In which case, what Deanna said is really important is that sometimes applying internally is one of your best bets. Or, like Mitch said before, is keep your network strong so that you can talk to somebody at another company and say, hey. I'm really interested in this opportunity that I saw posted. I'm gonna send you my CV. Can you get it in front of the hiring manager? Now we're surpassing going past that applicant tracking system filter.
We're going right into the into the direct hiring manager's inbox. I think relationship equity is so important, not only when you're trying to apply for these roles. So oftentimes, a lot of my jobs that I've received, interviews for have been through referrals. I think it's a lot more, the ROI is higher for me when I actually know someone within that company who can vouch for me and then put in the application. Right? So or working through a recruiter.
I think relationship equity is really important, and it is also equally important in the MSL role. Right? So what you don't wanna do, hopefully, what the take home message for you is not that every two years, you're gonna be switching therapeutic areas because it requires a lot of energy. It's almost like gardening. Right?
You have to put in a lot of energy in the beginning for these to flourish, to weed out the relationships that may not be working for a company strategy point of view, but you really have to invest in these relationships.
So for me, every switch that I've made has been maybe five years, at minimum, maybe two years, but I've stayed in those therapeutic areas to actually build that relationship with because what you don't wanna do is you don't wanna come off on a CV, but worse to an, to an HCP that you are on again and off again of a therapeutic area. What about I guess the only other thing that I'm thinking what about credibility? So you make the transition, and now you're in a new therapeutic space.
You have your KOL list. We talked about access before, but what about so now you get access. How do you establish credibility with KOLs in a new therapeutic space when you don't have prior experience? Yeah. I think the first thing that comes to mind is you still need to be humble.
And it's perfectly okay when you introduce yourself to that new HCP and you're kind of giving them an understanding of your background, you know, you can say, you know, I've spent a lot of time in virology, but I'm brand new to oncology. I'm learning, and, you know, just to set the bar straight because you don't wanna go in and you know, fearful that that KOL isn't going to appreciate your time because you're not the end all be all. It's also a great opportunity to learn from them.
You know, we have these every therapeutic area has the top top KOL, you know, that someone it's in someone's territory. And I look at those top KOLs, you know, yeah, we can update them on our data, but that is such a great opportunity to ask them questions to help you with your learning. So that's the first thing that came to my mind. But I'm curious since Mitch is very recent in changing, like, what his thoughts are.
So once I switched over to ophthalmology, someone asked me this question, and my answer was there's a lot that has changed and some things that have still the same stayed the same. And, for me, I think what's also really important is, the humanness of the health care provider. I think oftentimes where I see MSL struggling or stumbling is when they just go in and try to give all of the data in one breath. Right?
And you miss out on the humanness of that connection, understanding where they're coming from. Are they having a rough day at the clinic or not? What is their training like? How did they even get into that therapeutic area? What is it that excites them about research? How do they see partnering with industry? All of those questions can actually give you clues and what has the relationships that have really worked for me.
Diana, across ophthalmology and, hematology is when I step back and I'm trying to connect at a human level with a person, especially in the age of artificial intelligence. Because I think authenticity is really important. Building authentic relationships with someone where it's not just transactional, but it's actually meant to learn more about their their interests and see where you can find you can connect them to your company strategy. That's where I think the biggest value for an MSL is.
I love that. And, also, you know, since they're a new HCP to you, is ask them, like, how they prefer to communicate. You know, a lot of, lot of busy HCPs really like text messaging and, you know, is it okay that I text you? Because whenever they tell you about their email inboxes, you it explains why things go unanswered. It's not anything personal. It's just they get so many emails a day.
And so like Mitch said, you know, asking them about them, you know, asking them how can I be of value to you? What is the best you know, when you work with an MSL, you know, what what are some of the things I can do for you? You know, and you know all the different things about your company that, like Mitch said, you're trying to think, okay. I know we are really interested in this type of research or we have a grant that's available or, you know, anything like that.
And, you know, just make sure you know how they like to communicate and what is the best way to get, time on their schedule. Do they have an admin? And just help you help you help yourself open the door the second time to get in and see them. That's such great advice. That's such a great way to end it too. That's like that kinda trumps everything. So when you really pour yourself into the KOL and ask, how can I be of value to you? I think that that just trumps everything.
So that's just such a such a great piece of advice and a great way to end it. But thank you, guys. That was, like, the fastest half hour of my life. Actually, thirty five minutes. Appreciate you both for coming on. You got you know that you guys are always welcome to come back, and I'm glad we did this. And I wanna thank everybody. You guys are the best. Thank you for all your support and for, liking this show, sharing this show, and telling your friends.
Really appreciate you all, and we'll see you on the next episode. But thanks, guys. Thank you. So good to see you both.