Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSL and all things field medical. Okay. Welcome back, everyone. So we are on part 2 of our field MSL leadership panel, MSL q and a session. So I have Sue Watson, Vanessa Jacobson, and Amy Misnick with me that were kind enough to come back onto this podcast. As you guys know, they were, the pioneers of of this show and were some of my initial guests. And I wanna thank them for coming back.
We had surveyed, my LinkedIn community and asked a bunch of asked to get some questions. Actually, this was Amy's idea, so I have to give her creds for that. And I'm going to kinda rapid fire, continue to ask questions like we did on part 1. And I think I am on Amy. It's it's her turn. So, Amy, what experience or certifications do you feel can help someone transition transition into the MSL position or role?
Yeah. So I think we talked a little bit about certifications on episode 1, so I'll I'll skip right to experiences. And I think first and foremost, strong clinical experience, within the therapeutic area of interest for the MSL role is very beneficial and will definitely accelerate transition into the MSL role because you really have that knowledge and scientific acumen of that therapeutic area that you're going into.
So learning the data and the science will be very, very quick, and, really, what you need to learn if you don't have MSL experience is just how to be an MSL. I think secondly is, you know, building strong relationships with key opinion leaders or those high level practitioners or other health care providers. Being able to communicate with them and develop long standing relationships will definitely set you up for success in the MSL role.
And then last, I would just say, you know, a role in which you collaborate or work with many different partners. The pharmaceutical industry is very much matrixed, and the MSLs work with a lot of different partners both internally and externally. So, really, having that collaboration and approach to teamwork, I think, will also help, set you up for success in the MSL role. Great. Awesome. Thank you. Okay. So, Vanessa, you're up.
How is MSL performance assessed during this COVID environment, and what is your best advice for ways to achieve success? Yeah. So let me start by saying, you know, this is a difficult time, unprecedented certainly for all of us, and traditional ways of evaluating MSL, I think, have been largely suspended, in those organizations that have metrics in place.
And, you know, it is a philosophical, you know, debate or question in terms of quality and quantity, but I think most managers believe that quality, is key. And without quality interaction, we're not going to be able to achieve the goals and objectives that we identify for ourselves. So while numbers are important, in this era, I would say that's kind of off the table and it's more about quality.
Now what do you do when, you know, you're used to seeing 35 customers HCPs a month and and that decreases to to 5 or 10? And that's the reality for a lot of people. So what do you do to differentiate yourself and what do you do to deliver value to an organization, you know? That's the question you have to ask and you need to reflect on and I would say this is a time for innovation.
There's, I love quotes and one of my favorite quotes is is by Albert Einstein and that's in the middle of difficulty lies opportunity. And I am a big believer in that. So this is an amazing time to think about how to innovate and how to evolve the role and how to grow as a person and a professional. So thinking about that and coming up with new ideas out of the box thinking, now's the time. And that's how, for me, personally, I'm really going to reflect on end of the year performance.
So I think that's really important. I also think volunteering to take on additional work where, normally MSLs may have a limited role, so helping out with some of the in house responsibilities and showing an interest is also another way to really enhance your performance and get a strong evaluation at the end of the year.
So it's really about, you know, all hands on deck and, you know, being that team player and, you know, view it as a gift in terms of an opportunity to do things that you may not historically have time to do when you're in the field, you know, 4, 4 and a half days a week. Yeah. Awesome. Wow. That's good stuff. So we are back to Sue. So, Sue, what keywords are important to include on a resume?
Well, I think the most important thing to include on a resume if you're going for an MSL job is the word MSL or medical science liaison. I need to know that that's what you're looking for and that's what you're interested in. Don't use a generic, you know, resume that you just submitted for a staff pharmacist position, let's say, you know, if you're a PharmD. I wanna see that you're interested in the MSL role and that you've got MSL somewhere on your resume.
I'm also looking for things that I feel are important to an MSL role. So, you know, can you do a presentation? Have you done presentations before? Do you have scientific acumen? Have you published? I mean, it's not mandatory, but, you know, have you done journal clubs? Have you done teaching? Have you provided education? Because it's a lot of what you do as an MSL. So I'm looking for those types of activities that show me that you have done at least part of what an MSL would do.
I'm a big believer in, you know, show me, don't tell me. So don't tell me you're a hard worker. Show me that you're a hard worker. Right? So show me that you've done x, y, and z. Don't tell me that you have scientific acumen. Show me that you have scientific acumen. So that's what I'm really looking for in a resume. Well, I love that because so many resumes will say excellent verbal and written communication skills. Okay. And so what what does that mean? So we talk about keywords.
Put your presentations on there. Show that you've done it. Don't just say that you have these great communication skills. Show us what the presentations were. Any so for experienced themselves, I think anything that, that you can present on a resume as it relates to achievements, accomplishments, projects that you've completed, you're gonna the keywords are going to exist within the success of those projects, the success of those achievements.
So document that, and you'll get good keyword coverage. For an aspiring MSL, to your point, I think you really have to spell it out. Because if you don't have experience as an MSL, it's not gonna translate in what you're currently doing in your current responsibilities. So one of the things that we actually I did a webinar yesterday for, for an MSO club out of, Baylor, College of Medicine. And, one of the things that we talked about is is matching, keyword matching.
And what I mean by that is look at job descriptions and see what companies are looking for and pull out the keywords that are most relevant for that position. And then look at your background and say, well, I've given scientific presentations. I've communicated peer to peer with key opinion leaders or, handled journal clubs or whatever it is.
But you you look and see what keywords exist, hard skills that these companies are asking for, make a list of them, and see how your resume can translate to that. And that's what you put on make sure you include on your resume. So Yeah. I kinda sabotaged that question. Sorry, Sue. So we are back to Amy. So, Amy, what advice would you have for a newly hired MSL that just started during the COVID pandemic?
And more specifically, how would they make a lasting impact when in when introducing themselves to KOLs for the first time virtually now that they cannot meet in person, in the office, or at congresses? I think right now, more than ever, emotional intelligence is so critical for anyone in the field, especially new MSLs.
And when approaching these key opinion leaders and wanting to introduce yourself, I think it's really important to understand where that OL is in their practice, in their personal life, in the geographic area, and how they could be dealing with the global pandemic right now. So when reaching out or setting up these introductions, you know, first, do your homework.
Make sure that you've done all the research you can, met with internal partners to really understand who the OL is, what previous engagements they've had, what are their interests. And then when you're reaching out, make sure you have clearly defined goals and objectives of what is the purpose of this meeting and what is the value that you're gonna provide to that OL especially during this time.
We know that their time is really precious, and depending on where they are, they could be really overwhelmed still with the pandemic at play. And so I think showing up extra prepared and being really sensitive and respectful to where the OL is, and that's, I think, where the emotional intelligence piece comes in is going to be really important. And then lastly, I would say, you know, show up really professionally.
Have your office set up ready to go, your lighting test out the technology that you'll be utilizing so you can show up to the meeting very well prepared. It can go off without a hitch and then have really strong pull through and thank that OL for their time. You can continue to build that relationship even in this virtual setting. Awesome. Thank you. That was great. Okay. So, Vanessa, as an aspiring MSL, how can I overcome the job listed requirement of must have prior MSL experience?
Yeah. I mean, I'll be real candid. When it says must have prior MSL experience, I'm not exactly sure you can overcome that. I think it's going to depend on how you present yourself, and how you come across on paper to even get your foot in the door because frankly it it it is a screening question in a lot of scenarios and if you answer no, you may immediately immediately be flagged out. So, let's just assume it's a soft and it's not a must, but prefer MSL experience.
And in that context, you really need to think about what is it that an MSL does. Right? And I I like to say there's kind of, you know, 2 main buckets in terms of research or evidence generation in support of both company sponsored trials and investigator initiated studies. And then the other main bucket is education and, that is, you know, education to health care professionals, on data, on disease states, on compounds. Right?
And then the overlay to both research and education is territory knowledge and territory excellence, and a large component of that is an understanding of the key players within the region, both at an institution level but also at a thought leader level. Right? And having relationships. So when you think about it that way, ask yourself if you've never been in MSL, what have I done to support research? Have I been involved with research?
And really highlight that on your CV and highlight that during the interview. Likewise, reflect on the education that you've done. How many presentations have you given? What kind of presentations have you given? To what audience have you given those presentations? You know, maybe you're presenting at pharmacy conferences or medical meetings. That's all transferable in terms of skills. Territory knowledge. So do you know the key institutions in your territory?
And do you know who the key players are within those institutions? So even better than knowledge is relationships. So you may be a post doc, have 0 MSL experience, but you are working in the lab of an international thought leader. Guess what? Automatically, you must have MSL experience goes out the window because you have a phenomenal relationship with that thought leader. So there are exceptions to every rule.
Do not be discouraged, but you really need to think about the experience you have and what skills you've developed and how those are transferable. And I would say that you should be upfront, during the process and I don't think you should hide behind the fact that you haven't been an MSL but you should use it to differentiate yourself. You may have new ways of thinking about, you know, traditional, problems or issues that MSLs have. So think about why you're the best candidate for the job.
Don't dwell on the fact that you don't have MSL experience. And always, I take it back to how do you differentiate yourself from the rest of the candidate pool? Yeah. Wow. Awesome. I think, you know, that I get that question all the time. And I think that there's a couple of things to that I could just add, and one is networking. I think that if you have relationships and you know people and you can get a foot in the door so if it says that it's a rec it's required.
So if it says must have prior MSL experience and it's required, but you know someone that can get help you get in the door, at least you can get in front of people and be considered. So I think networking is a real important piece of the equation. For more information on networking, listen to episode 1 with Amy Misnick on networking. Shout out. For this podcast.
But the other thing too is, you know, being an expert scientifically in a specific therapeutic area, and this goes back to what Sue was saying, you know, before. If if you're a scientific expert, that kinda levels the playing field. And to your point, Vanessa, if you're the scientific expert and you have relationship with with top folks, well, that's gonna give you an advantage over someone else that may have MSL experience, because that those those relationships are hard to come by.
And what are you technically, what are hiring managers looking to hire? You're looking to hire experts scientifically. That's a big piece of it. So I feel like if you can utilize if if you can and have relationships that you can utilize, networking is key. But if you have a really, really strong scientific background, utilize that and show how that gives you an advantage over other people. But it is difficult. I do agree. So let's get back to Sue. I think we're at you now.
And this person said that they'd be interested to learn more about evolving training needs of MSLs with experience. How is training evolving to keep up with the pace of health care innovation? You're on mute, Sue, I think. Alright. That's a complex question with a lot of different ways I could answer it. So if you're an MSL with experience, you know, we already talked about highly you you had to have high scientific acumen.
So my first question would be, you know, have you really gone deep, and have you really gone broad in your scientific acumen? And that might be a place to start.
But if you have, you know, and you're talking about health care innovation and making sure that you're on the cutting edge, I think a lot of organizations, ours included, have really branched out into new therapeutic ways of analyzing data, like with real world evidence and network meta analyses and and different types of research tools that they use in studies. And that would be an area that I would focus on if I was an experienced MSL.
So, you know, how can I learn more about a therapeutic area within my niche that would help me be of more value to my customers? So what are my customers asking about that maybe I don't quite understand? The other thing with health care innovation is, you know, really knowing your territory. So what is your largest institution? What are their strategies? What do they wanna do in 2021, and how are they gonna get there? And do you understand that? And do you know what their biggest problems are?
What's keeping them up at night scientifically? You know? And how can you learn more about that particular or how can you provide value in that particular area? So those are kinda some of the things I would focus on. I know with COVID 19 and training, you know, we're on a lot of Zoom calls. We're doing a lot of webinars, and that gets old. Right? Mhmm. So one of the things that we're trying to use our experienced MSLs more as teaching others. You know?
So they learn the data, and then they teach others because, you know, once you learn it and then you have to teach somebody else, you really do know it. So so we're trying to do a lot more interactive type training with whiteboards and breakout rooms and really using our experienced MSLs to maybe help mentor and train our our our newer MSLs. So that's just some of the techniques that we're using right now. Great. Awesome. Thank you. So, Amy, as an MSL, how do you show your value internally?
That's a great question, and I think the MSL role is so vital, to the organization for multiple reasons. You know, first, I think BMSL brings that scientific expertise to internal stakeholders, whether that's, you know, different parts of the organization such as, you know, commercial sales or marketing, obviously, in a compliant way, but really being able to leverage that scientific knowledge and expertise internally, I think, is a big value.
2nd is the ability to leverage strong customer relationships. So as the MSL, you're really that the medical face of the company in the field. And so bringing the strong relationships you have and leveraging those in order to help support other company focused initiatives. And then last but certainly not least, and I would say this is the most important value that the MSL brings, is the insights from the field.
So those conversations that the MSL is having on a regular basis with key opinion leaders and other health care providers, That knowledge is so critical to the organization and to help drive our strategy, whether that could be r and d focused or opportunity to identify gaps in new clinical trials, helping support our commercial or educational strategy. There's just so many ways in which those insights can be utilized. Awesome. That's great. Thank you.
So, Vanessa, there's so much content on building KOL relationships. However, under what conditions should MSLs discontinue a k o KOL relationship, or more importantly, at what point should an MSL stop trying to connect? That is such a hard question. You saved that one for me. I know it. Hey. So there is no single answer to this question because there are a 1,000,000 variables that determine, how you would proceed in this kind of tricky situation.
So let me start by saying when you have an existing relationship with a KOL, that's a very different scenario than when you're trying to establish a relationship. So let's talk about where you don't have a relationship and you're attempting to establish a relationship because, frankly, that's the easier of the 2 to address. So in that instance, let's talk about perseverance. How are you going to establish a relationship? What you're currently doing may not be working.
If you've emailed them once, you emailed them twice, you emailed them 3 times, well, guess what? Maybe they're not good with email. So are you gonna pick up the phone? Or are you going to try to leverage an existing connection? Do you know another physician or do you know a nurse in that institution that might be able to make an introduction for you? So you can't keep doing the same thing, right, and expect to get a different response. I think that's the definition of insanity.
Mhmm. So you have to think of other ways. And my favorite way is leveraging an existing relationship. So if I'm talking to, doctor Smith and he works very closely with doctor Tom and I can't get in to see doctor Tom, I'm gonna say, doctor Smith, look, I've really been trying to introduce myself to doctor Tom. I know he's super busy, but I really wanted to talk to him and get his thoughts on x, y, and z, or I wanted to talk to him about this important new data that I'm he might be interested in.
Would you be willing to, you know, broker an introduction, send him an email, or can I use your name and tell, you know, doctor Tom that doctor Smith has suggested that I contact you? So that's an idea. Right? That's when you don't have a relationship. And you have to ask yourself, how important is this HCP? And if it's a, you know, well regarded thought leader, you can't give up. You have to figure out how to establish a relationship.
And if you need help and you need your manager or you need your colleagues to help you and give you advice, ask for it. Because, you know, not establishing relationship is not is not viable. And I actually had that situation with an MSL that reported into me, and he could not establish a relationship with the number one urologist in his territory. And that was problematic. Overall he was a great MSL but he couldn't do that and so we had to work on that.
Now if you have an existing relationship, well, I I mean, aside from, you know, some illicit behavior, I can't really think of a reason why you would not wanna maintain a relationship. So, you know, I'll just say that I think under very few circumstances, would there be a reason to terminate a relationship? So that's kind of my answer to that harder scenario, if you will. Listen. I think that's a great answer. I mean, I you know, if we were in the navy, we'd say, don't give up the ship.
You know? You gotta keep fighting. You gotta fight for that relationship. I think it's a great question, but I do love your answer. It's almost like a trick question. Like, I love the fact that you're saying, don't give up. Try other things. Yeah. Other yeah. Go to other resources. So that's why I gave it to you, Vanessa. I know you can handle it. Come on. Anyway so alright. Let's go back to we have a couple minutes. We're almost out of time. So let's go back to Sue where we started off.
Final thoughts. Sue, what's your advice? There's don't no pressure. There's thousands of people listening right now, and they're dying to know what's your advice moving into the rest of this craziness of COVID and into 2021? If you're an MSL, I'm assuming, what's your advice? Yep. I think my advice is to take a deep breath. Hopefully, we'll be in a much better place this time next year. Try and not get too anxious.
You know, and really a lot, I I liked what Vanessa said is, you know, find other projects to do. Let's say you're really worried about your interaction numbers. It's gone down. You've tried everything that we talked about to, you know, maintain a relationship, but people are just not interested for a whole host of different reasons. So let's go internally then and find projects. Maybe the med director needs some help with some some pot some stretch project for you.
Volunteer for stuff within the organization. Try and get on different, teams that we always have, work streams. You know, think outside of the box, like Vanessa said. You know, to in order to keep your yourself busy, if you really are having a tough time. If you're not having a tough time, and there are a lot out there that now in most parts of the country, they've really opened up and they are open to seeing, you know, then just continue on.
Continue to maintain those relationships, build that bigger relationships, that sort of thing. That would be my advice. It's just to take a deep breath, and hopefully, all this will pass soon. I love that. That's great. I'm gonna do that too, I think. When we're done, I'm gonna take a deep breath. Thank you for that. So, Amy, similar question. So, in, I think, our last episode, someone asked what advice you would give your younger self.
So as a student just graduating, you're just getting into maybe just getting into industry, what advice would you go back and give your younger self? So besides Vanessa's advice of, you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint, which I think is such great advice, I would additionally say just be open minded to your career and the path that you take.
I think there are so many different opportunities that coming out of school you're not even aware of or you haven't even thought about and just having kind of that open mindset, and flexibility to adapt to different opportunities or situations and scenarios that you may find something that you really love that you weren't even thinking about originally. So I think the takeaway there is just have an open mind, when you're approaching your career because you have a lot of time to figure it out.
Awesome. I love that. That reminds me I one a prior episode with Kathy Andorfer, she had said to, you know, take yourself out of your comfort zone. You know, have an open mind, but challenge yourself and and try to get yourself out of your comfort zone when it's when they're in a situation where you feel like you have apprehension or you're not sure it's something that you feel like you can do, push yourself to do it. And at the end, you're gonna wind up being much better for it.
So, Vanessa, I'm gonna come back to you. We're gonna we're gonna end off with you since you did such a good job with that really hard question. So final advice that you have for all your fans out there. I wanna just say be grateful because being an MSL is one of the greatest jobs out there. I remember when I first was an MSL many, many years ago, I thought, wow, is this for real? This is, like, awesome.
And, I I just really think that a lot of people kind of focus on the future and career development. And I think that's really important, and I'm not trying to discourage that in any way, shape, or form, but live in the moment, be be grateful. There are many many people that are dying to be in MSL and to break into the MSL role. So for those of you that are currently in MSL, really think about that because that is an awesome opportunity.
And, I think, you know, oftentimes, we we're so focused on what are we gonna do next, that we don't really appreciate what we have today. I love it. That's a perfect way to end it. I and I want you guys to know I'm grateful for you guys, for coming back on, and, you guys are the best. Again, you're pioneers of this show. I'm grateful for you guys as colleagues and friends, and, I I can't thank you enough. Thank you. You're the best, Tom. Yeah. You're the best. Sir. Alright, guys.
I'm gonna let you go. Let's do this again. We'll do another one. You wanna do another one? Sure. Alright. Count me in. Well, Alicia, best of luck in everything that you guys are doing with your new jobs and everything that's going on for, you know, for all your new endeavors and everything else. Best wishes. Thank you. K, guys. Thanks, Tom. Okay. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.