In this episode, my guest is Jessica Foyn, field director for the Biogen Alzheimer's MSL team in the northeast, and we talk about emotional intelligence for MSLs and MSL career development. A great conversation. Great info. I think you'll enjoy it. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Jessica. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Tom. Good morning. Happy to be here. How are you doing today? Is it rainy by you? I'm good.
It's rainy and it's dreary, but, you know, despite it all, I'm doing okay. It's Friday. It's Friday. So catch us up to speed. You congratulations are in order. Right? You just got a new job? Yes. Thank you. Actually, 6 weeks now, so I don't know. I think I still qualify as a newbie. But, yes, I now work for Biogen as a field director in the northeast for their new Alzheimer's MSL team. Wow. That's exciting. That's gonna be a really, really exciting project. It really is.
I mean, it's exciting to be part of something from the beginning. And, you know, as, if you're following the the company and the disease state, you know, there's there's really no disease modifying therapies for Alzheimer's, and and this is going to be the first. So it's really exciting. And it's also, you know, fun to be part of building a team, because we're really starting from from ground 0. Yeah. Well, congrats. Good luck with that. So but let's go back a second.
So because you were at Sanofi for a long time. Right? For many years. Yes. Many years. Actually, just under 15. So really spent the majority of my pharmaceutical industry career at Sanofi. I started there in 2,005 as an MSL. And over my tenure or 15 years had a couple different roles, MSL, MSL director, across both diabetes and cardiovascular.
But then also sought out some other, networking opportunities that led to some home office positions including, marketing on the commercial side, as well as chief of staff to the North America medical head. So a couple different positions over over those 15 years, but, it was a great run and a and a great experience, but, has well prepared me for what I'm doing now at Biogen. Yeah. So I always like to find out from folks, everyone's interested, so how did you transition into industry?
So you obviously had a tremendous career, you know, all years at Sanofi, everything you've been doing. How did you get how did you get to your, like, first job in industry? So I did the, ever popular becoming more popular, Pharm d fellowship program through Rutgers. Mhmm. You know, actually, at the time, I was still working in retail as well as hospital pharmacy, and I loved all aspects of pharmacy. But I I did have, you know, the industry bug.
I I knew very early on that I wanted to go into the industry. I knew it had a lot of opportunity, a lot of, you know, a lot of variety. Right? So that I can move into different roles and and and have, you know, different functions. So I had done the PharmD Fellowship, at the time at Adventist in medical information. And in that, you know, we hopefully will believe and talk about this a little bit more later. I knew my future was not going to be in medical information. Right?
I knew my personality, what I like doing, you know, that probably wasn't going to be where I ended up long term. But it was a good opportunity to get into the industry, to get some exposure to, the entire business and what other opportunities are available within the company. You know, you don't know these things in pharmacy school. So, you know, I took an opportunity that I thought would, allow me to kinda spread my wings within the company and and learn more about it.
And, you know, medical information is essentially the home office based, you know, partner to to field medical, to MSL. So it really was a nice, entree point for me. No. That's a great route. Fellowship to MedInfo to medical well, not Med MedInfo is medical affairs, but to MSL to everything else. I mean, you've done it all. I mean, you have. So that's why I was really excited to talk to you because and today, we're gonna we're gonna talk about emotional intelligence today.
And I thought you there's no better person because you've run the gamut of really all aspects of medical affairs. So let let's jump into that because I think you hear so much about emotional intelligence in the workplace, in business, and it's I think it's important to to for this podcast to talk about how is emotional intelligence important in the MSL role. So to start, let can you tell us what emotional intelligence is, your definition?
Sure. And and I probably should qualify that it is in fact my definition. You know, there are a lot of definitions out there, but, you know, for me, I like things that really I can digest and that can resonate. Right? So quite simply, emotional intelligence is really your ability to recognize, understand, and manage your own emotion. It's also the ability similarly, it's ability to identify and understand and influence the emotions of others.
And so that definition to me helps me really understand, okay, am I aware, self aware of what I am feeling? That would be the first big pillar of emotional intelligence. Right? Do I understand what my emotions are? Do I understand what my strengths and my weaknesses are and my triggers? Then the second big pillar or or bucket of emotional intelligence is how do I manage those emotions. Right? Self management or self control.
We can't always we can't tell ourselves what to feel, but how we act on those feelings and those emotions is a big part of emotional intelligence. Mhmm. The other one, which I think is probably one of the most important ones as we get into this more discussion with MSLs is is the idea of social awareness. Right? So how are you perceived by others? Just because I think I come across a certain way doesn't mean that's how others see me.
You know, and so that that social awareness piece is so important as an MSL who's engaging externally and earns internally though with with others to make sure that we are being perceived the way we want to be. And understanding that or that organizational awareness. You know, and the last big pillar is relationship management, which encompasses all of this. But how someone is able to to build that trust with somebody else.
How they're able to to manage a relationship, to work through conflict would be the other, you know, kind of the 4th big bucket of it. So essentially self awareness, self management, social awareness, and relationship management really encompass emotional intelligence. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Good. So then why would you say why is it important for MSLs to have emotional intelligence?
Yeah. So, obviously, I'm gonna I'm gonna make a general statement that every candidate coming in for an MSL spot spot is intelligent. Right? They're intelligent. They've acquired some sort of advanced degree, whether it's a PharmD, PhD, MD, you know, nursing degree. These are individuals who have proven scientifically they're very bright. And any science we throw their way, they're going to learn and and understand it. But emotional intelligence is kind of a whole different animal. Right?
It's a different type of intelligence. And if you think about the the core function of an MSL or the the primary role, it's to engage in scientific exchange or scientific communication and build relationships. Right? And we just kinda talked a little bit about the importance of relationship management. But if you think about it from an from an MSL perspective, If I go into an office and I may have the the best laid plans, right, the best agenda.
But if I go into an office and I just try to deliver my message, my agenda without reading the audience, without understanding where the KOL is at at a given moment, I'm not gonna be successful. You have to be able to understand where your audience is at at a given moment, what their needs are, what's important to them, and tailor what you are trying to deliver to them. The relationship management piece of it, building that trust.
You know, no one's gonna open their doors to you if they don't believe that you are there to ultimately help them and help their patients. To build that trust, you have to have a high level of emotional intelligence to be socially aware of what's going on in their world. And and, again, tailoring your approach to their needs. So, you know, building those deeper level connections that make a KOL want to be with you, want to listen to you is vital to being a successful MSL.
You know, so I I almost feel like it it's it's somewhat obvious speaking the obvious, but, you know, if you think about it, it's not just what you're feeling and what you wanna do, but it's how you are being perceived and what the what the the KOL, the HCP, your audience, what they want from you. And and being able to recognize that and execute on that is critical to being a success successful MSL. Got you. Okay. So, obviously, tremendously important, critical to the success of an MSL.
So how would you say emotional intelligence would affect the career of an MSL, looking at their career trajectory and how they can go from good to great and progress in their career? Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, a couple different ways. Let's think about it may first, externally, just in the day to day of being an MSL, you know, being out in the field on your own. 1, you know, being a being self driven, self motivated is a part of self management. Right?
Mhmm. So if you are not driven or or motivated to go out and to create opportunities and to to to knock on some doors and and take some risk, you are not gonna be able to to advance as an MSL. Right? You're gonna kinda stay right there at the basics. You're not gonna be able to build those deeper relationships that make you the MSL that somebody wants to come into come into their office. That that's one part of it. Right? It's just that self motivation piece.
The next piece of it is also, you know, looking at how your company and your teams view you. Right? Because you want these leadership opportunities. You wanna be able to work on some of these bigger high profile projects that will ultimately create new opportunities for advancement within the organization. To be that go to person, you need to be somebody that others want to be with, that others trust and believe in.
And these are all thinking these are all traits that are are rooted in emotional intelligence. Right? If I can demonstrate internally as in within the the network of the company that I am not just a good MSL building good relations externally, but I understand what's important to the business.
And I understand what's important to you as a leader in this organization, and I can build that trust with you, and, you know, and I can influence you from, you know, from an MSL level, you're gonna be somebody they're gonna want on their team. You know, I give the personal example we talked about a little bit about my Sanofi career. So I started as a MSL. Right?
And so I say this to this day, the reason I've been successful has been my ability to to build that trust with others within the organization at Sanofi. My commercial counterparts believe trusted me. I I understood what their needs were. I stayed within my swim lanes, but I became a go to person for them. They needed to understand something. I knew how to deliver information and tailor it to their needs. And I and my our our shared customers wanted me to come in and talk about the science.
So when a home office opportunity became available to do a preceptorship in marketing, one of my commercial colleagues called me and said this is a good opportunity for you. They want somebody with a medical background to come into commercial, help them develop educate promotional education, but that that will resonate with with with our, you know, I was in diabetes then, so our endocrinologist.
And so that created an opportunity for me to get in the door as a preceptor in marketing where they never would have brought somebody from medical before. But because I was able to to build that relationship with my field partners, it opened that door. Then once as a preceptor of marketing, you know, I ended up loving it, and they end up seeing the value of bringing somebody with a medical background who knows how to engage with KOLs in the field.
So you know, this isn't this is somebody we need to bring into the home office as a product manager. We need this perspective. And, so that created the opportunity for me in marketing for 4 years, in building educational programs.
But again, this would not have happened if I wasn't able to demonstrate that I can understand what's important to our customers, that I know that I am able to tailor what I'm trying to say at the, you know, at the right level at the right time, and build that trust with my commercial counterparts. So, you know, in getting back to really what you asked was, you know, how how does the application of emotional intelligence create opportunity for you or advance your career?
Well, as soon as you're able to demonstrate that you're somebody they want on their team within a company, they're gonna they're gonna reach out to you. They're gonna look for you. But, you know, you need you need to perform and and demonstrate this higher level of of emotional intelligence in your day to day. Right. Those are great points. And it even goes back as you're you're as you're talking, I'm thinking. So in my world, we see it right from the start.
So in the interview process, you know, candidates that have high emotional intelligence and can demonstrate that are the ones that are are getting the job. They're the ones that are getting promoted. They're the ones that are advancing in their career. So it's it becomes evident right on right in the beginning, on day 1, at the interview, and it translates throughout, so the people that can show and demonstrate that they have really strong emotional intelligence are going to perform well.
The question is, and and this is one of the topics that always comes up with emotional intelligence, is can you teach it? There are some people that think that, you know, it can't be taught. I personally think that there are things that you can do to improve your emotional intelligence. I'm curious to see what you think and if there's ways that MSLs can strengthen their emotional intelligence. No. It's a great question.
And, yeah, it's not so easy to to teach emotional intelligence, but there are a couple things. I have to share a personal experience. So at Sanofi, there was an opportunity to take a course on emotional intelligence. And so I said sure, let me do this. I don't know what this means. Let me learn about it. It was it was that day that I kind of fell in love with the topic and developed a passion for it because part of that was the delivery of a 360.
Or, essentially, you know, for those who don't know what a 360 is, you know, you give list of names of people you work with. People who are higher than you, your manager, people who work for you, your peers, other departments. You give a list of names and they send out a survey to those individuals. It's anonymous and they ask questions about you. Right? So while I believe I am a certain way and I come across a certain way, I don't really know what others think of me.
And so getting the feedback from other people in an anonymous fashion so you know that they're being honest and kind of package the little report about you, to me was very eye opening and taught me a lot about myself. And and helped me develop some some kinda stylistic changes to ultimately be perceived the way I want to be perceived. So I think part of of, you know, kind of teaching emotional intelligence starts with first understanding kind of maybe what what you need to change about yourself.
And you're not gonna know that unless you actually ask those questions. You know, outside of being able to do something like that, something structured and formalized as a 360, there are things individuals can do. You know, a big part of it is just controlling your own thoughts. Right? Again, you can't you can't really control how you feel. But what you do with that emotion and how you act on it, you can control.
And to be quite honest, and I have this conversation with my 9 year old son every day. Right? You might not be happy on the soccer field. You might not like what just happened. Right? But if you sit there and you cry or you yell at somebody else, that's what you can control. Right? Because that's what's gonna have a downstream negative effect. So we all have to kinda take a minute, pause, you know, focus on that self awareness, that self reflection.
Think about how am I feeling and what can I do if it's a positive thing? You know, what can I do to kind of make that bigger and and make others feel the same way? And if it's negative, what can I do to either turn this into a positive or learn from this experience? So, you know, another personal anecdote is I I had somebody on my team a couple years ago who is a very passionate individual like myself. And I told him, I said, this is your safe place. Right?
So you know when you're really upset or you're really angry. Before you act on it with anybody else, to say hang up the phone and say listen I have to go. Pick up the phone and call me. Right? Talk to me. Find that trust that that person you can trust where you can kind of unload that emotion and work through it before others who who see it could have a real negative impact on on your career. So I think finding that person as well that you can trust and kinda work through it is really important.
You know, other ways, you know, finding finding ways to motivate yourself is another way to kinda build emotional intelligence. Finding things that you can be passionate about, that can ultimately help you kind of be a bit more positive and build relationships with people who, you know, who want you on their team. Right?
So it's about turning some of these either things that are are negative or mundane into things that could be could good exciting opportunities that in the end will make you a bit more passionate about what you're doing. And ultimately have a very positive kind of cascade effect. You know, others have said and some of the things I've read, you know, being able to work on kind of forgetting forgetting and forgiving. Right? Not holding grudges.
Because these things all weigh you down and ultimately affect how you how you respond to situations. But, you know, I think those are some of the core ones. You know, again to kinda just to summarize, I think taking the time to to pause and think about how you're feeling. And then think about how best to respond to that is probably the easiest thing somebody can do to build emotional intelligence.
And then I really, really recommend if you have an opportunity in your company, you know, to to do some surveys and and and activities to try and understand how others see you. Because again, we all have a blind spot and, you know, we have to remove that blind spot. Yeah. That's great advice. And I think we can all benefit from that because we I mean, I I think for the most part, we're all we all have that emotional trigger.
And sometimes we have to just remember, especially in a business scenario, sometimes you just can't take things back. Right. So you really do have to pause. You have to be mindful of what you say, how you say it. We're in a time now where there's so much communication happens via text and email. So, you know, does emotional intelligence play a role in the written word? Absolutely.
You have to triple and double check your emails before you send them out, your text before you send them out because there's no tone in emails. So I do think it's important. I love the the concept of taking a pause, double checking, triple checking your work, what and your emotions and how you respond so that you don't regret it later.
So the other piece of this that I wanna talk about real quick is I like to relate everything back to interviews at some point because there are a lot of job seekers that are gonna be listening. So when you interview candidates, I'm sure you're assessing emotional intelligence. Right? So what questions might you ask in an interview that would help you determine whether or not that person has a level of emotional intelligence?
Yeah. There are so many questions you could ask, and I honestly think every question in every question, you can assess it. I have a couple favorites. So if anyone's listening to this and wants a position on my team, you'll probably hear this kinda come out of my mouth. You know, but we started this with talking about one of the core pillars of emotional intelligence is self awareness. Right? So it's a very classic question. People have always asked it.
What are your give me 3 of your strengths and 3 of your weaknesses. Right? It's it's a classic. I mean, going as far back as high school, someone would ask me that. It always amazes me how many people don't give you a legitimate weakness. And, you know, you hear things like I'm a perfectionist or, you know, I just, you know, I I'm a poor delegator. I really like to get things done myself.
And and while these can be weaknesses, the real weakness, let's say, in being a perfectionist is not that you're a perfectionist. But if you can't get past something if it's not perfect, if you're not resilient because you can't bounce back from something not going the way you had wanted but would have been perfect for you, that's the weakness. Right? So I I always ask that question because I want people to be aware of, really, where do I have opportunities to develop myself? Nobody's perfect.
You know? Despite the fact I tell my husband that I am, I know I'm not. Right? But but if you're not aware of your weaknesses, then there's no chance that you're ever going to improve upon them. So that's my first interview question. I will always ask it, and I really want people to come with a weakness or 2 that they know they have. And honestly, if there's really no weakness, that would be a no go for me. Right?
Because it because if you know it and you're willing to admit it, then you're willing to work on it. The the second one that I like to ask is, you know, personal accomplishments, achievements, you know, what are you most proud of? That's also a very insightful question for me, because if someone comes back with an answer that reveals, you know, a great success as part of a team. A great success is helping somebody else. You know, a great success that ultimately impacted the business or patients.
That shows that they're not just thinking about themselves and kind of what they want, but the impact of of of their actions. And so that's one to me that also shows kind of a higher level of thinking and, and commitment, quite honestly. Another one I ask is, you know, tell me a time when something didn't go the way you had planned and how you handled it, whether personally or professionally. Right? Because we talked about part of, emotional intelligence is is the self management. Right?
How do you control that emotion? What do you do when you're faced with that obstacle, that roadblock, that challenge? You know, this again, what did you do when something didn't go your way? How did you handle it? Reveals how somebody thinks and how they handle that in in that type of situation. And let's be honest, in MSL role, no day is ever really gonna go the way you had planned. Right? No conversation's gonna go in the way you had scripted in your head. How can you handle that?
And if you can tell me in an interview another situation, analogous situation that shows that you're able to work through that is really really important to me. Very close to that is tell me a time when someone gave you feedback. You have some harsh feedback or critical feedback or or something that you didn't agree with. You know, how do you handle that? That is so important because, again, you're gonna get objections, from a KOL. You're gonna get feedback from your manager.
Are you open to understanding how you can improve? You know, and if they were really wrong, well how were you able to apply emotional intelligence to change their viewpoint or influence them? So that's another one I love. You know, you'll see a lot of the questions I ask, they're not specific to being an MSL. You know, and and I I'm really really passionate about this that there are transferable skills in so many different roles.
You know, I've talked to, you know, having done retail pharmacy for 10 years, you know, on the side. You know, if a retail pharmacist was looking to be an MSL and they had a lot of relevant experience, you know, I try and coach them to saying, well, look what you've handled as a retail pharmacist. I'm sure you've had conflict. I'm sure you've had phones hung up on you. I'm sure you've had physicians talk down to you.
You know, I'm sure you've had to remain calm employees despite wanting to say something else. You know, these are transferable skills to being a successful MSL. So I think it's just finding, you know, what that is, what that connection is. So I'd say those are probably some of my my favorite ones, that to me reveal kind of someone's, you know, emotional intelligence level. And that's really valuable advice.
It's it's a look into the interview process from someone who's sitting in the seat where so many people want to get that job. It's giving them the answers to the test. You mentioned, you know, you know, pharmacists, and we there are a lot of aspiring MSLs that are, you know, dying to get into their first MSL role. What advice would you give to those folks? Yeah. Well, I mean, I started kinda mentioning this even earlier on. You know, I coming out of pharmacy school, let's say entry level.
Knowing that I wanted to get into the industry, you know, I looked for various paths. At the time, the fellowship was a good opportunity for me. But I also knew the fellowship was going to be an area where probably long term I wasn't going to be. So my first advice is take an opportunity even if it's not the perfect. Even if it's not your dream job. Right?
But if it's going to be an opportunity and experience that when you're in front of me trying to get a job, you can tell me how you demonstrated your ability to work through conflict. How you influenced others. You know, this whole notion of transferable skills I'm very passionate about because if you can do it in one place, you can do it successfully as an MSL. You just need to be able to to build that connection and articulate it. So I'm very big on you know what?
Maybe don't go for the dream job right away if it requires 10 years of MSL experience. Find a position where you can prove that you have a high level of emotional intelligence, that you've been successful, and that you could bring it to this role. I think it's really important. You know, the other pieces are, you know, building a network. Right? So, you know, reaching out to individuals.
And and I've been, an informal and formal mentor, you know, preceptor to pharmacy students, to fellows, you know, to just say you know, and help coach them through some of this, But I also have a lot of connections now. Right? So if somebody's looking to get an MSL job, you know, I might be aware of somebody who's hiring and who would hire somebody at an entry level. You know, really as a hiring manager, you want folks who are gonna be committed.
You want folks who are gonna be passionate and eager. And and sometimes, individuals just trying to break in are that. Right? So so for me, you know, I love somebody who's who's thirsty and excited and and really committed to their development. That's a very attractive candidate to me. And if they can say, look, I've been in a situation where I faced a lot of conflict and this is how I overcame it.
I've been in a situation where I have to influence an outcome and I did it, you know, I would take a chance on somebody like that. Yeah. That's awesome advice. Thank you so much, and thank you for taking time to talk to us. You're the best. You gave us some really, really good info, and you have to come back again and visit us. But I'll let you get back to your day. I know you got a million things going on. So congrats again on your your new position, and best of luck, and thanks for joining us.
Thanks, Tom. And thanks for giving me the chance to talk about something that I'm really passionate about. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.