Hey, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kunal Ramani. He's senior director of Regional Medical Affairs at Xerus Pharmaceuticals. And we talk about how to find opportunity in a saturated market through nonconventional path. And he is awesome. You guys are gonna love this. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube and Instagram, and check us out on MSL Talk Live, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month. It's on Clubhouse. And that's at 1:30 PM Eastern Time.
And if we haven't connected yet, please send me an invitation on LinkedIn. Would love to connect with you all. And thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing this podcast. And you have an awesome day. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Kunal. Welcome. Thanks for joining me. How are you doing today? Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity. I'm doing well. How are you? Man. This is gonna be a lot of fun.
So we gotta give people a little background like I like to do. So you and I met recently at the MSO Society Conference in Vegas, and that was it. We're like, hey. We gotta do a podcast together. And, guys, I have to tell you, this Kunal is, like, the nicest guy I think I've ever met. I couldn't wait to collaborate with him. He's just he's just he's not just nice. He's super smart. He knows a lot about this industry, so you guys are really in for a treat. So, Kunal, thanks for joining me.
We're gonna talk about do what others don't, and how to find opportunities in a saturated market. But before we do that, let's if you could do an introduction, that'd be awesome. Yeah. Well, again, thank you for having me. I love what you're doing with the podcast and the opportunity to speak to you with you today, I really appreciate. And, with that, my name is Kunal Armani. I'm a Pharm d by training, which stems from small to large biotech companies.
But my main passion is mentoring aspiring and new MSLs and those looking to break into the industry. Awesome. Well, I tell you, there's a lot of people out there that I'm sure appreciate that, and that are listening today. So I think a lot of people are gonna get a lot out of this. Hey. Before I jump into real quick, I want to give a shout out. We have some new listeners. We broke into the top 10, in rankings in Indonesia. So we're in the top 10 in the careers category.
We're actually in the top 100 in the business category. That was last week. So I wanna welcome everybody and say thank you to to all the listeners in Indonesia, and for everybody around the world that's that's listening. Appreciate you guys. Alright. So real quick. Let's jump into it. Let's go back to the beginning. Like, what made you transition to industry? Let's start with your story. Yeah. So that's a great question.
When I think my journey, like you said, is looking for opportunities where people aren't looking. And it started out in pharmacy school. I think even now being 10 to 15 years out is majority of the pharmacy schools push either clinical or retail. But having my experience during school, I realized that those are two tracks that I didn't necessarily want to do, whether that was through my rotations or, internships and things like that.
And while in school, I took the opportunity to take advantage of what the University of Arizona had to offer. And one of the things that they did is they have an Arizona Poison Control Center, which is, at that time and I think still is part of the College of Pharmacy. And at that time when looking for internship positions, nobody really thought about that.
And I was trying to find things to do, but if you can imagine, we're in a small town, and there's only so so many opportunities with about 300 students that are looking for those types of positions. And not to mention, you're competing potentially against new grads. And with that, I started asking around different preceptors, different professors, and came to find out that in the college of pharmacy itself, there were there was Arizona Poison Control Center.
So I got some experience there, and I thought it was really neat because you start to identify and help patients on a 1 on 1 basis, but it wasn't direct patient care. Mhmm. And then going down that pathway pathway, once I graduated, I had done a series of different rotations. So I got to do one through international pharmacy IPSF, which is, like, international pharmacy student alliance or something like that, federation.
And I was able to see how pharmacy works at an international perspective where I was able to be in Singapore for 6 weeks and identified, you know, what does pharmacy look like there and how it compares and contrast to here in the US. And just putting all that together, I realized that I wanted to make an impact on patient care, but impact those who support patients themselves. Mhmm. And in doing so, I realized the perfect fit would be something within pharma and biotech.
And that's kind of what led me to get into medical affairs, sparking the interest, and then I had also done a rotation at Eisai in their medical information department, which gave me a little bit of a flavor of what that looks like. Yeah. Well and and you you've been you you leveraged this curiosity, it seems like, and you found a path, which I think leads me to my next question. So the the topic that and this this was a topic you came up with. You know, do what others don't. So talk about that.
Like, what do you mean by that? Do you actually seek out things that other people aren't seeking out? I would say yes and no. I think it comes from necessity. Mainly from the fact that I've been in situations where there's so much saturation within what if whether it's a career path or what I'm looking to do that you have to start looking outside of the box or what people potentially might not be doing Yep.
To in order to either give you that experience, get that knowledge base to get to where you wanna be. Yeah. And so like I was saying, the example, landing the Arizona poison control position, there was just too many students that I was trying to compete against, and I didn't really have ex I wasn't from Tucson, Arizona, and a lot of the my classmates were had roots in Arizona.
So So they would either go back to Phoenix and do get their intern hours there or get experience from the hospital and, retail setting that they were placed in. But I had to find something that other people weren't looking at, what opportunities were available, and how do I land that.
Yeah. And through my IPPE, the program, I was able to be exposed to different opportunities, but this is the one that stuck where I felt like it would be something different that not many other people could put on their resume at the time. And I was able to help develop and build that program for their interns. Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, we we hear that term all the time, think outside the box. And it's like, well, what does that really mean?
But you you put a different spin on it, and you found an opportunity. And and I think one of the keys is you looked for it, though. It's it you know, I think Yeah. One of the things I try to explain to people and I I I try to influence folks that are whether you're job seekers, you're just looking to build a career, is that you have to take control of your career. You're the one that has to take action.
So, obviously, that's you're a perfect example because you went out and said to yourself, well, I have to find different things, and I have to create opportunity, and I have to look for internships, and I have to see what's available, and then maybe take a bit of an unconventional path. And you were able to put together some really good experience at in, you know, young in your career. So how did you leverage that experience to get into medical obviously, you wound up in medical affairs.
So talk about that transition. How did how did that happen? Yeah. So that kinda is a similar story where coming out of school, the only avenue that I knew of to land a commercial or, in medical affairs or even biotech, let's just say, was to do a fellowship. And at that time, the only fellowship that I knew of really was Rutgers. And during the midyear, there's a program, so we did that.
And for anybody who's listening, that is probably the most intense interview process I have ever been through. It's a full day long, interview and talking about yourself, figuring out how to answer situational questions so that if you ever wanted to do some interview prep, call up one of those recruiters and ask them to say, hey. Can you just grill me on one of these, sessions? But after going through that whole process, I realized that I didn't necessarily wanna be on the East Coast.
I had a potential opportunity with Sanofi, but I was based in New Jersey. And I'm originally from the Bay Area. I'd already spent 7 years away from home, so I wanted to go back. And, luckily, the Bay Area is a biotech hub in itself. And once I came back, I realized all of my connections were either through, in Arizona because that's where I went to school, but I didn't necessarily have anything within the Bay Area.
And my mom works for Genentech, and she's been there for a while, but she wasn't able to she introduced me to as many people as she could, but my lack of experience being a new grad and not having formal education within pharma outside of the 1 6 year 6 weeks that that I had in medical affairs didn't really give me the leverage that I needed to land a position that I wanted.
And so from that, it was really leveraging my internal network and professional network and, trying to figure out who those individuals were within where I was located. And that kinda helped me a little bit, and it opened the doors. But the one the 2 things that really helped, I think, were talking to recruiters, which I think is highly undervalued.
Those those individuals have their pulse on everything that's going on within that specific region, what's happening within the industry, who's hiring, what the different markets are, who's buying who. And that was really a great source of information.
And the one interview or sit down meeting that I had with that inner recruiter, she was able to kinda explain what the different departments are, where she thinks that I could be a good fit, how my background plays into those specific roles, and what my experiences I could leverage to excel within those. And doing that, I landed my first contract position, and that was really the first my foot in the door to get experience. And I started with drug safety. I moved into MedInfo.
And it was also being humble because at a certain point, I was working as a drug safety associate in a position that I was highly overqualified for, but I came into it with the opportunity of learning because I didn't really know too much. And that helped me identify, again, things that I didn't wanna do and areas that I did want to go into.
And so from that, I realized drug and or drug safety wasn't necessarily that I was passionate about, but maybe something within medical affairs and med info. Mhmm. And through all of those, I guess, informational interviews that I was able to set up and learning more about each, industry and position while I was at those different places, I think, opened me my eyes as to what I really wanted to do.
Yeah. Well and I will say to all the listeners, I did not tell Kunal the part about how great recruiters are and how valuable and how you should reach out to recruiters. Even though I am a recruiter, I didn't tell them to say that. So thank you for for giving us credit. Sometimes we don't always get it. But, in in all honesty, you know, and I've said this before, and I'll say it again. You're one phone call away from changing your career. Maybe changing your life.
You're one interview away from, you know, resetting the course of your career. So I think it's important. You mentioned the word networking and, you know, reaching out to folks, reaching out to recruiters, and having conversations, and doing research, and learning about the market. That's paramount. And you said, I tried the networking route, and it wasn't exactly fruitful. And that's okay because at the time, maybe it wasn't. But reaching out to recruiters is a form of networking.
So I I think it's important to I wanna stress that and encourage people to, each and every day, be diligent in your networking efforts, your reach outs, and your ability to understand the markets that you're trying to get into. Because the more you do that, the further along you're gonna get, and the closer you're gonna be to that one conversation that's gonna change the rest of your life.
So let's we've covered some ground, and I'm really interested in your background because it is and you use the term nonconventional. It's definitely nonconventional. I mean, I think the the thing that's somewhat conventional is that you you wind up landing that fellowship, which I think is a great thing to do. Not always easy to do, but then you went into a contract position, then you wound up in drug safety.
So is that what you talk about when because you've used the term nonconventional to me when we talked. Mhmm. Or is there more to it that you consider nonconventional, and what happened from there? Well, I didn't get a fellowship position. I decided not to go that route just because, and I didn't wanna be away from home. I'm really close to my family.
Yep. And being from the Bay Area, going to school in Arizona for 7 years, and then having to do another 2 years on the East Coast, I just didn't wanna necessarily do that. I just need to do that. I just need to do that opportunities within the Bay Area. No worries. And so I think the as we're kinda talking and I'm thinking more about it, I think it just comes back to you being hungry.
And if you're hungry enough for whatever you're looking for, you'll make the you'll find the opportunities to get there. And I think that's what it comes down to. And ever since I think I've been little, it's just, I've always moved around. I've always have to be relatively independent.
And in doing so, I think it's had me adjust and kinda evolve to the point where, okay, if this is my goal and the paths that most people are taking is not is not working for me, then how do I figure out a way to get there, through paths that other people aren't potentially looking at? And that's kinda what I was alluding to is, first, I guess, like, my my first example would really be, like, getting into even college. I didn't necessarily have the best grades.
I didn't necessarily have the best SAT scores. But when I was looking at pharmacy as a potential career option, the only two schools that were ranked really high in San Francisco, and then also Arizona. And out of those 2, I wanted something that was a little bit different. Born and raised in the Bay Area, like, California, I was experienced to that microclimate. And for those people who haven't been to California, it really is its own microclimate compared to the rest of the country.
And so I needed an experience to see what other people are thinking and how, like, the rest of the like, everybody else lives. Because I think growing up in that area, it's its own little bubble. And for people who do understand that, you'll get what I'm saying. But so that I think Arizona gave me that opportunity. And then getting into pharmacy school, it was like, okay. Well, I need to get intern hours, but everything that I'm looking at, there's no opportunity.
So how do I find something else? Coming out of pharmacy school, it was like, okay. I wanna get into pharma biotech. The avenues that I'm looking at aren't really working. So who else and what else can I do to network my way and find those opportunities? And then, similarly, when I was starting off and doing my contract work, one of the things that I did was when I was at Actilion.
I was a contract I was doing contract work there in their medical information department, And so I took it upon myself to start setting informational interviews up with the medical affairs directors that were there. And through that, I realized they all had different career paths, all had different backgrounds, but the one thing that they all had in common was being an MSL. And so I figured, okay. These guys have obviously done something in in their career to get to where they're at.
And one commonality is being an MSL. So how do I get to that MSL position? And that kinda and the I wasn't necessarily looking for an MSL position, but the more and more that I started learning about it and what that job entails, it felt like it was a perfect marriage of my strengths and skill sets, what I'm looking to do, and how I can get back within the community and all within medical affairs. And it just happened to be it was the right time at the right place.
I just let people know within the organization that, hey. You know, I'm in medical information. My contract ends in about 2 months, but I'm really looking to get into the MSL world. And it just happened to be that I had worked with one of the sales trainers there, and he had mentioned, do you know the director of MSLs? And I was like, no. I'd I haven't really met him. I've heard of his name. But he mentioned, hey. He lives in New Jersey or somewhere on the East Coast.
He's in town for today or, like, the next couple days. Why don't you just talk to him and I'll set up, like, an intro? And one thing led to another. I ended up interviewing for the position, and that's how I landed my first MSL gig. Wow. That's a great story. And just to unpack that a little bit, I mean, I wanna go back to something you said right from the beginning. You said, how important it is to be hungry.
Yeah. That I'm hearing that throughout this conversation is how hungry you were and how active you were. Being proactive versus reactive makes all the difference in the world because if you're reactive in your career, you're gonna miss opportunities because opportunities don't always come to you. Rarely, they do. You have to go out and get them. So you had this idea. Well, I'm gonna start talking to all these, you know, these directors of medical affairs as a networking activity.
You learned from that network. Am I am I right or wrong about that? It wasn't necessarily just to advance career, like, a networking perspective. Like you said, I was hungry to figure out, okay. I'm doing this right now. Mhmm. But what other options are there out there? Got you. And that's what I always struggle with. When people ask me, like, okay. What are you looking to do within your career?
The answer really is I still feel like a person who graduated college, and the world is your oyster, but you don't really know what your potential opportunities are. And the only way that I've learned to identify what those are is to talk to people who are doing it and and get a better understanding of what opportunities they've had, what their career path has led them to, what experiences or advice that they have because that can kinda help you, I guess, kinda jump the line.
You don't have to go through and do all of their mistakes when you can learn from them. So this you have this professional curiosity. Yeah. It just took you right in a direction, and you wound up as an MSL in medical affairs. And so what happens next? Because you, you know, you're a very interesting story because you said to me, I wanna talk about, you know, doing what other people typically don't and taking a nonconventional career path and finding opportunities where others may not.
And I just think that that's such a profound statement. And as I'm hearing your story, and it makes total sense because you asked the right questions. You had this professional curiosity, and it took you down this path. So what happens next? So this journey probably started I've been in MSL since I think, like, 2014, 2015. And you'd think the natural progression would be to manage people or be, an MSL manager. And I've had this goal for the past 3, 4 years maybe.
And I started interviewing for different possibilities, and potential opportunities, but the resounding feedback that I got was we can't necessarily hire you because you don't have any MSL manager experience. And it's kinda like trying to land your first MSL job. Everybody tells you you can't be an MSL here because you don't have experience. Well, how are you supposed to get experience if nobody will hire you?
And so, again, I had to think of, okay, I don't have the experience or the opportunity at my current position. So how do I get that outside of my organization? And as a result, I turned to MSL Society, which I think is a really great organization that helps people transition and get MSL positions. I think they do a really good job of getting people prepared and giving people the background and potentially networking too.
So like you mentioned, we met at MSL Society and also Mass West, I think, 4 or 5 years ago, randomly. But with that, I mean, I got to meet a lot of people. I got to network there with a lot of really great individuals and also got to meet a lot of aspiring MSLs. And through MSL Society, I was able to become an MSL mentor. And with that, I was able to put into, like, a formal process how me and a co mentor develop 1st year, 2nd year MSLs.
And I've done this on the side of helping people transition from clinical into industry, and I help, like, about 16 to 17 people so far. But this was really a true formalized process to do that. And then so I got was able to do that, and then, also, I worked with a local professional chapter and, touch helped cochair one of their national annual conferences.
And with that, I was able to help manage kind of our team, understand what directives are, coming up with a mission, driving individuals, supporting them, all of the things that managers do. And then lastly, I was able to become a board member on a nonprofit organization. And so all through all of those external opportunities, I was able to develop those managerial skills. And through that, I was able to land and get promoted at my current company, and become a leader of our West team.
So you're kinda work I just, did this or I just promoted in October of last year, and now I kinda start all over with this whole career of trying to understand what this role is, how to make an impact, and support those who, support, HCPs. Well, congratulations on your success, your path. And for those of you guys listening, I mean, it's very, very difficult to become an MSL director. It director. It really it's one of the most coveted positions in industry, really.
As hard as it is to become an MSL, it's it's extremely hard to get a position as an MSL director. And and clearly, you've taken some really amazing leaps in your career and the right steps, and it brought you there. So since you've done it all and you have such a good breadth of experience and knowledge, and you kinda had this this nonconventional road map. I see pharmas evolving, obviously. For sure.
Yeah. So what do you see as far as opportunities for the medical affairs community, for MSLs and people in medical affairs? What what do you see coming down the pipe? Yeah. I think COVID has really pushed forward this hybrid and in person relationship that pharma has with the health care community. And through that, I feel like that's here to stay, and it's going to only evolve furthermore.
And the reason why I bring that up is pre COVID, a lot of our interactions, I would say speaking strictly from an MSL standpoint, was in person. But now you look, there's an ability to be in person. You can be hybrid. Actually, both, I would say. And then you have the opportunity to really bring our medical affairs home office people into the field.
And what I mean by that is if I'm having a meeting, with, let's say, a top tier KOL or even a community doc, And, usually, my home office colleagues in medical information or whatnot might not have the opportunity to come out and visit and talk to these people. And let's say we're creating a manuscript. Right? Then I can have a meeting with this individual. While I'm there, I could just Zoom call my colleague, and they can have a 1 on 1 discussion.
And that way, I'm really marrying the 2 worlds of home office and field together. And I think that's one of the main ways that we'll see medical affairs really evolve where it's not strictly home office and field versus a hybrid between the 2. Yeah. I mean, we're seeing it now. It's definitely it it's upon us, and I think that one thing one positive thing that came out of COVID is that we were forced into adopting virtual tools and technologies.
It's expanded our capabilities, and by doing that, it's created the these new opportunities that companies now are gonna rely on. And I think it's going to open up, a kind of a whole new world, but I do personally believe that there's still gonna be tremendous importance on the live engagement piece of it. I think for relationship building and for the ability really to make an impact with engagements, I think that there's gotta be that the focus on on live engagement.
But again, that's a whole another topic that we could we'll save for our next podcast. So I know people are out there probably dying to to for me to ask you your opinion on what advice you have for folks that are breaking into industry trying to find their first MSL position. Yeah. I appreciate the question, and I've thought about this a lot in both when doing being an MSL mentor through MSL society and then those individuals who are looking to break in.
And I think the biggest thing that I would say is educate yourself. And it's a multifaceted, I would say, pathway where you're talking to people, you're networking, definitely leveraging LinkedIn. You will not believe the amount of response that you will get from people. You might send out, like, 20 emails, and you get a response of 5. But that 5 people will give you a wealth of information that you had no idea existed before you talk to them.
So I would say even blind, messaging people on LinkedIn is really helpful. Definitely this podcast. I tell everybody now that if you wanna break into the MSL career, you need to listen to this podcast. Start from the beginning. And, you know, while you're on a run or doing whatever it is, you need to listen to this because there's a lot of great insights that you can pull. And it's not even necessarily for people breaking into the career.
I mean, I've been in MSO for so long, and I just happened to stumble upon your podcast. And I started listening from the beginning, and I also gleaned a lot and was able to incorporate a decent amount as well. And I also touched on this, but recruiters, I think they're instrumental in helping people understand the lay of the land and also what different opportunities there are and how you can leverage your experience into the MSL role.
And it's really highlighting the fact that you may not have the MSL experience, but you have the translatable skills. And that's what you really need to highlight when you're doing these interviews. Lastly, I would say professional societies and be humble. I think some individuals, they graduate with a d degree, and they feel entitled that, hey. I have this degree, so now I should have these opportunities to land an MSL gig or, you know, whatever position that you're going for.
And I would just say come curious, come hungry, come humble because you don't know what you don't know, and there is a lot to learn. Yeah. For sure. That's great. That is that advice is incredible. And I'm not just saying that because you plug the podcast and you plug recruiters again. Not just saying that, but that is really, really awesome advice.
The I tell you, this this whole episode was packed with really good takeaways for folks that are looking to navigate through, and advance their career in medical affairs or to try to get into medical affairs. I think that, your story is a great one, and it's one that's just packed with really good advice. So what's your final advice for folks? I mean, not just for aspiring MSLs, but anybody that's looking to build a career in medical affairs, what would you tell them?
Can I actually pause and go back to that last question? I forgot one point that I wanted to mention. Sure. Go for it. Okay. So, also, one major factor I would say when trying to land that first MSL career or any MSL job is do your homework on the company.
I'm on a position now where I'm able to review resumes, interview individuals, and it's critical where you look at the company's mission statement, look at who their leadership is, look at their pipeline, ask insightful questions outside of, let's say, situational or of what does a team look like or what is the organization structure. Read a press release. You'll get a lot of information from those press releases on what where the company was, where they are currently, and where they're going.
And that can actually separate you miles and miles ahead of other individuals who may have experience. But you came, you did your homework, you know why you wanna join this company, how your morals and values line up with their mission statement, and how the role that you're looking for is a good match with your skill sets and strengths. So I would say do your homework in that relation too. And I I'll tell you, that's great advice for anyone that's interviewing for any position.
It's really a no brainer. You have to be prepared to answer the question. So what do you know about our company? Or why do you wanna work for our company? There are so many times where hiring managers will tell me, Tom, you know what? I'm not even so sure why they were here. You know, we asked them why they're interested in the organization, what they knew about the company, and they couldn't tell us anything. And, guys, this is a a layup question. It's a no brainer.
Kunal, just like you said, there's so much information out there. Just look at the news section of their website or pull up some press releases or just look at core values within an organization. There's so many different things you can do. Even just pull up Wikipedia, if you have to just find facts on the organization. But I think that you wanna be able to to speak intelligently about the company and why you wanna work there and then show excitement for that.
And I think that that's really, really important. Yeah. The passion definitely comes through. And make sure you close too and express how much you're interested in the position. Now we've had a number of candidates where we'll be interviewing them. And through the Zoom interview or the phone interview, they sound great, but then they come in person and that enthusiasm or the the hunger of even wanting to be there doesn't necessarily showcase.
And that could be one of the reasons that another person gets the opportunity over you. So be honest, genuine, and come curious and hungry for that position and make sure it shows. Great advice, man. Well, listen. Time's pretty much up, but I have to tell you, we're gonna do this again because you're awesome.
And I think that people are gonna it's gonna be one of those episodes where people are gonna be, you know, commenting a lot, asking a lot of questions, and and asking me to have you back on. So, folks, I I appreciate you listening. Don't forget to share this with others, because I think that this is some really good information that can help a lot of people. So, Kunal, thank you again, my friend, and all the best to you. I can't wait to follow the next phase in your career. Thank you so much.
Again, keep up the great work. I really appreciate the content that you're putting out and the opportunity to speak to you and share my story, experiences, and insights that I've gleaned along the way. So thank you so much, and I look forward to being on again. Yeah, man. Let's do it. Alright, pal. Have a great rest of your day. Thanks, everyone. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again and we look forward to seeing you soon.