Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Omar McMillan. He is an field MSL director for Genentech, and we talk about DOLs, digital opinion leaders, and all that you need to know. Interesting topic. Omar is awesome. I hope you guys really enjoy this. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel. And check us out on MSL talk live, which is on the Clubhouse app. And that's the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST.
Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Omar. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me, my friend. My pleasure, Tom. Thank you for having me today. I'm excited to be here. A little background story. I've been harassing Omar for the last 6 years or longer to try to get him to come on this podcast. No. It's probably been about a year. Right? Maybe? We didn't talk about it. Feels like it's been a while.
It's been a while. So I'm excited to have you here. Guys, I've I've known Omar for a long time. You guys are in for a treat because he's awesome. So let's start with an intro. Why don't you tell everybody who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff? Sounds good. Thanks, Tom. Hi, everyone. My name is Omar McMillan here, and I am one of the field directors at Genentech leading our MSL team that works in breast, GI, and GYN malignancies. So I'm really happy to be here.
I've been working in medical affairs now for about 10 years, and so it's been interesting to see the evolution of the way that we're all doing things collectively as an industry to engage our customers. And just a quick disclosure, I wanna just point out that the opinions expressed here are, of course, that of my own and not those from my organization. Cool, man. Well, thank you again for being here.
And so, guys, Omar came up with this topic of, DOLs, digital opinion leaders, and, we we started talking about it. I think that this is a really important topic. It's very relevant. And I know just in our short conversation that he and I had, I learned a lot. So, I am going to let him we're gonna start, like, right at the beginning. I'm gonna go very, very basic and let Omar tell us what is a digital opinion leader. Let's start there.
Sure. So in my opinion, no no pun intended, a digital opinion leader, in a nutshell, is really an individual, oftentimes a KOL, but not exclusively a KOL, that has influence on social media platforms by creating content that basically expresses their opinion on scientific or medical material. So they can be KOLs, but they could also be patients. Right? The the bottom line is these are very active users on a variety of social media platforms. So that could be LinkedIn. It could be Twitter.
It could be Facebook. It could be YouTube. It could be Spotify. A number of these different mediums to basically just communicate what their personal views are on sometimes controversial datasets. Yeah. So we we hear the term influencer. So is it safe to say that a DOL is an influencer in, obviously, our space or the the the medical field, so to speak, like a KTL, KOL, HCP, or even a patient, somebody in the medical community that's an influencer. Is that is that kinda what it is? Absolutely.
These these individuals are certainly influencers. And in addition, they are wearing the medical hat. Right? So they're providing that extra lens of of expertise. And so there's more trust than, you know, just a a layperson, right, who doesn't have a medical background, isn't part of an advocacy organization, expressing their own opinions on data. So it wouldn't be your usual Twitter troll. Right? It it would be someone that has, more credibility in the community. Well, I was gonna ask you.
That was my next question. It's like, what's the criteria? Like, how how do you how does somebody get designated a DOL? It's a great question. I I don't I don't know that there is really a standardized algorithm or formula to define that. I think every organization does that a little bit differently. In my mind, I think that someone that is creating their own content and leveraging preexisting content qualifies as a DOL. Mhmm. And I can give you a more granular example of that.
If a KOL, who is also a DOL, partners with an organization to create a podcast, let's say. Right, that is content that they're making on their own in collaboration. But if they're just retweeting, the latest data from a medical congress, it is impactful, but it's not at the same level as content that was created from scratch. Right? So DOLs will do both of these things. Right? They they'll do more of the content creation actually than, leveraging preexisting content. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. It does. And and, obviously, this I feel like this is a term that seems like it's been around for a while, but it's not kinda really been around for a while. So I think we're kinda just scratching the surface on this whole subject. And my question my next question, like, what impact are these DOLs having right now? Is it significant? And because we keep here we hear about it. So I'm just curious. It's there's there's gotta be some type of impact. Absolutely.
We really are just scratching the surface. I agree with you a 100% there. I think all of us in the industry are are scratching our heads sort of and wondering how do we engage this group of individuals because they are out there. And we know that by 2025, well over half of all HCPs will be millennials. So we really have to adapt to their preferred communication style, their preferred engagement style. And if this is the way that things are going, we will need to adapt to that. Right?
Mhmm. And so I think all of those considerations are are are really important for us, and we have to do more than just observe where things go with DLLs. We have to start to figure out how to engage this community because I think that is where the most opportunity exists. What are we doing with these individuals? I think a lot of organizations are aware of who they are, but it would be interesting to see how everybody is actually working together with them to create content as mentioned before.
Right. You know, I'm interested in talking about that piece of it before we get there. So you said companies are aware of who they are. So do they, like, designate are they is there somebody there that, like, designates KOLs as DOLs? It depends on the organization. I say some some do this better than others. I've seen a variety of different styles and, you know, heard of different things at at a variety of organizations.
There are internal capabilities that allow companies to designate DOLs sometimes. But then on the other end, you may want to rely on an external third party vendor to help with that because they may have more of an expertise in this area. So, again, I know that there there are a number of different avenues that one can embrace to identify who the DOLs are because the algorithms and the definitions are a little bit variable.
And so if an organization is is still sort of getting up to speed, they may want to partner with one of these external organizations or vendors to help them better define and map out who these DLLs might be. Right. I mean, that just makes sense. I think that that's gotta be one of the fundamental initial steps in having a strategy for this is to really define and identify and designate, you know, this group. And then I I think, in my mind, I would think what would be next is now what do you do?
Right? So how do you how do you respond? Right? So what would be the next step for companies? Should they should there be an engagement strategy where these DOLs are actually monitored regularly to see what information they're putting out and then have a strategy to either respond, engage, share? Like, what what what is the next step, do you think? I I think you hit the nail on the head there, Tom. It it's it's one thing to identify who these individuals might be.
The more challenging step is what do we do with them once we we have this list identified. Right? And so I think there is tremendous opportunity there still, because some organizations don't really know what to do. I mean, there is overlap usually between a DOL and a KOL, so it's not as though they're not being engaged with we we're not meeting with them, right, as an industry. It's just how are we engaging with them digitally on these platforms. It's different.
So to your point, I do think that it should be integrated into strategy. There should be some sort of initiative or plan on how to better utilize these folks for their their expertise in this digital realm as well. Right. Well is an area where, the vendors that I mentioned can also help get the creative juices flowing and and innovate on some ideas that really are out of the box because this is a new realm for for all of us.
And so we do have to get a little bit creative here to to figure out what makes the most sense. Yeah. Well and I I think that because of the fact that it seems like there's gonna be a there would be a lot of work involved in just this piece. So the question then becomes, does it get outsourced to 3rd party vendors to, you know, to handle a strategy or develop a strategy and implement a strategy? Or is it the MSL's responsibility?
Like, do do the MSL's are they now maybe required as part of their regular job? It's like, okay. I have my KOL list. I'm gonna designate or there's gonna be designated DOLs of those KOLs, if that makes sense. And then they have responsibilities for their engagement strategy with those DOLs. Is that where this is going? Or maybe it's there. I don't know. I I I I'm curious. I think it's always helpful for MSLs to be aware of who DOLs are, and and they can certainly help in the identification.
Because oftentimes, what I see is MSL's following on social media. So let's just say Twitter or LinkedIn, several of their KOLs. And and they do notice when they tweet on certain topics. So they can sort of just anecdotally, in their minds, recall instances where a number of providers are very active on social media, which, right, could qualify them as a DOL depending on what kind of content that is that they're they're posting or they're creating. Mhmm. The question is, what's next? Right?
So after after they're identified, who sort of owns the engagement strategy Right. With the VOLs? I don't think that MSLs necessarily should be responsible for that. As mentioned, I I do think that they can contribute to the identification and the mapping, But where does that live at an organization? Do we have a separate group that focuses on digital engagement? Do we have a team within medical that does that? Or or maybe it sits outside of medical. Maybe it's a corporate affairs function.
I know that a lot of organizations are active on social media platforms. They have their own Twitter accounts. They have their own Facebook accounts. But these are generally managed by PR, right, or corporate affairs. They're they're sort of, separate from medical affairs or even commercial functions. So I think that is also something that we all have to think about and and figure out what makes the most sense here. Yeah. Well, I mean, it it does make sense.
But it's also one of these things that since it's so new and it's still, you know, being developed, I think that there are so many companies out there. They're just trying to figure out how to stay ahead of it, and make the most of this as an opportunity. So and I I know that just going to the conferences that I've been going to recently this keeps coming up. This is a hot topic. I think everybody's trying to figure out what's the best way to do this.
So to your point, you're saying that it, you know, it could be third party vendors. It could be, you know, an internal department, like maybe PR or may I don't know. Metinfo. I don't know where this sits. But what actions like, I'm just curious as to okay. So there has to be some response in engagement. What does that look like? What actions do you think, and I'm asking your opinion, should be taken by by companies?
Some of the initiatives that I've seen organizations take advantage of are podcasts. I've seen them partner with a variety of providers to create content that they would then post on Twitter. I've also seen I'm not sure if you've you've noticed on LinkedIn, you can create content now as well. Mhmm. You can publish different articles that that you basically author yourself.
Mhmm. And so I've also seen examples of companies partnering with providers to author, some sort of content that they would then post on LinkedIn. Another example could be a webinar. Right? So maybe something conducted on YouTube live just as an example. Again, in collaboration with an organization. And then lastly, the other idea that I I've seen, work quite well is is polling.
So asking a series of questions, let's say, on Twitter that sort of facilitates discussion and gets people engaged so that it comments on on the thread. So there's a a number of different approaches, and this is where I think if organizations don't already have internal expertise, which some may. Right? But if if that's not already in place, that's where one of these vendors can really help to just identify some of the different engagement opportunities that are out there. Right.
So our companies, like, our company you're saying companies are engaging DOLs to do webinars and podcasts and all this other stuff. But, like, are they actually is there a way to pay DOLs to tweet something or to get information out there? And, or is that just totally illegal? It's a great question. I think, it it's it's somewhat of a gray area. Right? But I I have heard instances of organizations that are doing that. They are paying, providers to send a certain number of tweets, per year.
I don't know that they have control over what that content is, but just to express their opinion because we know that it's impactful. Right? We know that patients are following these DOLs, these KOLs as as well. Right? And and what they say matters to them because for the reasons expressed before, these are credible, trusted providers that patients listen to.
Yeah. Well, I know even I I love TikTok, and I gotta stop because it's just such a you go down that that black hole of TikTok and 3 hours go by. But there there are there are physicians on TikTok that are out there creating these, really informative videos.
And I just I can't say for sure in the medical affairs space when it comes to something that is therapeutic, like an oncologist or, the stuff that I'm looking at is mostly nutrition related, for example, or exercise related or antiaging related, some of the stuff that I'm interested in. But, there there are there's physicians and influencers all over TikTok.
So I can only imagine that in the medical affairs space or the medical space, I should say, there are, there are plenty of influencers that have taken to that medium and that social media platform. Would you agree with that? I think that that's probably one of the the up and coming platforms for this sort of thing. Yeah. So you'll you'll probably be shocked, but I've actually never used TikTok. I'm not a TikToker quite yet, but I agree with you.
I know it's very, very popular, and and its popularity only continues to grow. So you're right. I think TikTok is another possible medium for for organizations generally to take advantage of. It's hard to project, right, which of these platforms will ultimately win, which which will last, which will go away, or or even which new emerging platforms will will come down the line because I'm sure that that will occur.
But the bottom line is as the digital social media environment continues to change, we have to be prepared. Right? Because maybe in 10 years, we'll all be in the metaverse. Right? That's another interesting, medium to think about. So what does that whole situation look like, and and how do we engage patients and providers in in in the better verse looking down the line? Listen. The truth is stranger than fiction.
If we sometimes you laugh at something, you're saying, oh, no. That'll never happen. And the next thing you know, we're all gonna be walking around with headsets on in in the metaverse. Like, we don't know. And I think that this is a perfect example of how important it is for organizations to try to stay on the cutting edge of innovation and technology and embrace the changes that may or may not come.
I mean, we were thrown into a lot of changes because of COVID and because of the pandemic, and there's all these things that have created. We don't know what that next thing is going to be. So I think it's just really important to stay educated, and and be try to try to be ahead of it. But let's get back I wanna get back to the MSL. Obviously, that that's our audience's MSLs and MSL leaders, and those looking to break into the MSL role.
So my question is, what what do you think MSL should be doing as it relates to this, this concept of the DOL? I mean, does this go into the insights category, or is this reported? What action items do you think are important for MSLs to follow? I think MSLs should definitely be aware of DOLs and and their potential down the line. Because to the points we raised earlier about social media becoming more and more important, the emphasis on on this group of individuals, I think, will only grow.
So a savvy MSL will be aware of of which of their KOLs are also qualified as DOLs. Mhmm. They'll be aware of what their opinions look like on these social media platforms. And I think that, ultimately, down the line, we may see MSLs participating in engaging these individuals on social media platforms in certain ways. But, again, I don't think that this responsibility will be led by field medical.
I do think, ideally, it would be collaborative with perhaps other medical affairs functions or functions outside of medical that, think more strategically about how to engage this specific group of people, and when they do, what that looks like. Right? What sort of content do they want to create, and how do they want to go about doing it? Got you. That answer your question? It does. And and and it kinda gets into my next question because and you may have kinda touched on that a little bit.
But, like, what do you I mean, I'm what's the prediction? Like, where do you think this is going? What's the future look like with this? Is is this just the beginning of something that's gonna be, potentially revolutionary for the space? Or is this just like, hey. This is just another thing that's gonna be out there. And and companies will figure out a strategy and and take it seriously, but it's it's not gonna really affect business as we normally, conduct it.
I think it will be more of an evolution than a revolution. Okay. So, we'll still continue to engage with these individuals in in our traditional ways, but we'll have to also consider digital engagement. Right? And I think with with COVID and and this pandemic, it has really accelerated thinking this way. Right? I I I I believe that these capabilities were always in place. Right? Zoom meetings, virtual engagement. It's not as though we couldn't have done that 4 years ago, 5 years ago.
It just wasn't really standard practice. Right? We didn't we didn't leverage it in the way that we should have, and now, forcefully, we are. And we've realized our customers have also realized this actually works to a certain extent. Right? And so I don't think even for our day to day engagements, things will ever be exactly the same as they were before.
And so this whole situation has really accelerated the importance of DOLs and the content they create digitally because so many more of us are now plugged in, right, on these digital platforms. Like, you and I right now, this this meeting, we're we're doing it virtually. And, you know, years back, maybe maybe we wouldn't have done that. Maybe we would have waited for some meeting, right, where where we we saw each other and and done it live.
So I think things just continue to evolve, and and we have to be ahead of that evolution and ready to adapt. Yeah. And I agree with that. I mean, I think that that there are still gonna be obviously, it's gonna come down to the KOL. Some KOLs are going to adopt social media and digital platforms, and some are old school, and they never will. They're just they're not going to. It's just not in their makeup, and they're not probably gonna come on board with that.
So I think as MSLs and as people, anyone in field medical, it's always it always comes down to what does the KOL want? Where you know, where what is there and, you know, what's what's their engagement preference, if you will, more so than anything else? Do you agree with that? A 100%. I think we can't push our agendas down our customers' throats. We have to be customer centric and adapt to their preferred style, whatever that might look like. And it could be the metaverse. Right?
I mean, I'm I'm half joking about that, but I I really do think that even that whole realm is is the future. You know, we'll eventually I joke with my friends. I'll be plugged into the matrix. Right? So, Listen. Maybe we'll save the next podcast for metaverse. Well, actually, I'm I'm saving that for, my buddy Bruno at Larval. Just one of the vendors out there. He's I mean, he's this guy. Like, he is all in, with the universe with the metaverse stuff.
But if you ever saw the movie Ready Player 1, you how did you see that movie? Yes. If anybody out there is listening and you haven't seen the movie Ready Player 1, I recommend you checking it out because it's a really interesting take on what could potentially happen in the future. It is very sci fi, whether you like sci fi or not. It's just this interesting concept of how life can get blurred, how reality gets blurred with this, virtual reality, if you will.
It's just a really like interesting depiction on a fictional account of of who knows what might happen in the future. So I'm not gonna say anymore. I don't wanna ruin anything. Don't wanna don't wanna give anything away, but you should check it out. For that preview. That sounds interesting. So last question. Just to wrap up. What else you know, what other advice do you have? There's obviously a lot of MSLs listening to this.
And, what advice do you have as we get into the second half, let's just call it, of this year? And people are looking to, you know, get back out there and, and do a great job in their territory and and hit their numbers and continue to develop their relationships. What advice do you have for folks? Sure. So because I think as an industry, every organization is at a different place when it comes to DOL. I would encourage everyone listening to ask questions. Ask your leadership.
Ask your colleagues. Ask your peers what your organizations are doing to manage social media platforms and and what they're doing to engage DOLs. Have they identified DOLs? Do they know which KOLs overlap with that list? And what is the role of field medical when it comes to DOL engagement?
So I I would just encourage everyone to to ask those questions to better understand the situation, the landscape, and make sure that this topic is on the radars of of those that set the strategy at your organizations because it really should be. Yeah. Good stuff, man. Omar, you're the best. Appreciate you. I knew you would be awesome, and you did certainly deliver. So thanks for coming on, and you are definitely welcome to Quebec anytime you want. So, and thanks everyone for listening.
Thank you guys for, for telling your friends about this podcast and sharing it. It's one of the fastest growing podcast in the farm industry. So I really appreciate you guys. And, Omar, you have an awesome rest of your day, my friend. Thanks, Tom. I really appreciate the opportunity. Alright, man. Talk soon, buddy. Take care, everyone. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future.
And feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.