Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Keith Farrell. He is national MSL director at Adaptive Biotechnologies, and we talk about the diagnostic MSL role, which is a really interesting conversation. I learned a lot. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn and look out for the announcements for MSL Talk Live, which is once a month, and it's on LinkedIn. And that's a panel discussion. Don't miss it. Those things are great. We've been getting great, great audience.
So wanna see you there. And as always, thank you for supporting this podcast. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Keith. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. Hey, Tom. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm excited. So, guys, Keith is someone I know for a long time. We've done work together, and I'm grateful that he's he's one of the guys that I have the opportunity to run into at conferences.
So we've gotten to meet, you know, in in person. And, he's he's an awesome guy, and I can't wait to share him with you because this is a great topic that he had come up with. And, I'm excited about it. So before we get into that, Keith, why don't you do a quick introduction? Yeah. Sure thing, Tom. So thank you, again for having me join. I'm Keith Farrell. I am a pharmacist by training.
I live in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and I've got a mix of medical, commercial, home office field experience over about the last 10 years of my professional career. And currently, I'm the national director of the ClonoSeq MSL team at Adaptive Biotechnologies. Awesome. Yeah. And and we're gonna get into this topic actually ties in really well into what Keith does right now.
Before we get into that, I just wanna remind everybody to sign up for this year's medical affairs strategic summit east, Mass East, if you haven't done so already. Great event. And you can get 25% off registration if you use the code MSL talk, m s l t a l k, no space, all caps, you will go to medaffairsummit.com. And it's a great event, great networking opportunity, 3 great days of learning. It's right in Jersey City, New Jersey, which is awesome. It's kind of my home turf.
I always love going to Mass East. So definitely sign up. I'd love to see you guys out there. And don't forget to use that code. So, Keith, let's jump into it. You have this idea of doing this discussion on the the diagnostic MSL. And I think when you hear that term, everybody thinks it's so different, but it's not that different. So we're gonna talk about what it is and some of the similarities.
But I guess to start, why don't we go right into kind of a definition of, like, what is your definition of a diagnostic MSL? Yeah. So, actually, when I joined, I I didn't know fully what to expect, but found that on the other side, it's it's really just like any other MSL. There are individuals with that similar training and background as a therapeutic MSL, often your PhD, your PharmD, or advanced practice provider, like a PA or an NP.
And ultimately, they serve as an extension of the headquarters medical affairs team in the field. They're responsible for education, research activities, and collecting insights, just like you might see at a therapeutic, MSL company. So it's so let's talk about the similarities because what you're describing sounds really similar. Yeah. Very much so. I'd actually say there are more similarities and differences in the roles.
So just like a therapeutic company, we have the field medical team, assigned territories. We're focused on provider relationships, play a pivotal role in educating on the proper use of our product. We handle off label information, and we're involved in that research activity as well, company sponsored or investigator initiated.
And then we do the typical things you'd expect, like go to regional conferences, national conferences, manage our territories, and bring back those insights for the organization. So a lot a lot more similar than different, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. So then what is different? So I think the biggest thing that struck me in this role is sometimes you just are engaging a more expansive audience. So especially in this role of diagnostics, we talk to pathology quite a bit.
In this space of oncology where I am, it's hematopathologists in particular. And then I think what I learned with time is an appreciation that the role requires additional technical knowledge. So, beyond just being clinical, we're actually quite scientific and technical in nature too because you're working on an assay or a specific tool that's used in practice.
And then maybe another thing that I call out that's different is there's almost not an off label, as you might think of from a pharma therapeutic space. Some companies seek that FDA clearance or really just an FDA approval in layman's terms, but more often, we're just, you know, a CLIA certified LDT or laboratory developed test. And so that means that the Salesforce can promote really across a range of, quote, unquote, indications.
And maybe the last piece I'll just layer in is just that the new there's a nuance to how we work with our commercial partners, but I think we can dive into that a little bit later in the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So then I I I'll never forget. So when I was I was a rep, like, a 1000000 years ago, and when I was a rep, we had different divisions and different specialties just like most companies.
And I remember at one point in time, someone's like, oh, yeah, our diagnostic rep is gonna be there. And I'm like, what the heck is that? So literally the person just looked at me like, duh, stupid. And she goes when you she goes, diagnostic means testing. So is it that simple? Is that, like, the easiest way to describe the the diagnostic side of you? I I honestly would. I think you could get, you know, some more complicated definitions and nuances to that.
But at base case, diagnostic equals testing. Yeah. I mean, I hate to I hate to dumb it down to, like, how I learned, but and that always stuck in my head. So when I when I see the word diagnostic, that's what that means. So look now understanding that there we all know what therapeutic MSLs do. And now you just explained that what diagnostic MSLs do is very similar. Mhmm. So in your position as a as a leader, have you seen MSLs kind of bounce back and forth in the different roles? Yeah. I have.
So it's quite fascinating, actually. I think we tap into a lot of talent coming from pharmaceutical therapeutic companies in particular. They make a jump over into the diagnostic space. It's, you know, to me, you know, advantageous on many degrees. It just rounds out your experience much more so. And in some cases, we find that individuals are almost at tried and true diagnostic. Some of my team members came from therapeutics. Some have been in diagnostic their entire MSL career.
And then, honestly, some find that maybe when they make that jump from therapeutic to diagnostic, diagnostic doesn't mean exactly what they're expecting. They go right back to therapeutics. So I think it's a nice, really, full circle. You can dip in, dip out when you choose, and there's no harm in in trying it out and seeing if it's for you or not.
Yeah. I mean, on my side of the equation as a recruiter, I don't if I look at a resume that has a combination of both, to me, it shows somebody that is well rounded, somebody that has, additional transferable skills and experience. So I don't I don't think it's a negative. You said use the word advantageous. I agree with that.
I think that there's advantages to having skill sets and having tools in both of those toolboxes, if you will, to be able to draw upon those transferable skills and understand that piece of the equation, and have have both sides of, you know, the diagnostic piece and the therapeutic piece. So I I mean, I think there's there's something to be said about it. Yeah. I I would agree completely.
I was thinking about this before our discussion today, and I truly believe there's a lot of benefit to gain this experience, especially because we see precision medicine becoming so prominent in therapeutic treatments and therapeutic companies. And so, really, being here at a diagnostic company allows a lot of great perspective and experience that you could then leverage if you were to jump back, like, for instance, to go back to a therapeutic company.
And we see them building out teams and, structures and departments that are focused purely on that, on diagnostics, on precision medicine in particular, and really, you know, how we advance the science to be that much more targeted in our approach for patients. Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like I guess that kinda makes me think that there's there's some nuance, maybe some, you know, in in the differences, there are some exciting and interesting things about being on that side.
It so is what what is it that that you would say might be exciting or interesting about being in the diagnostics world? Yeah. I think, really, the variety, is number 1, which I know a lot of MSLs say that in general. But I think especially with a diagnostic platform in the hematologic oncology space, our team of MSLs, we're talking to providers treating multiple malignancies. We're talking to the ALL specialists, the CLL, myeloma, non Hodgkin lymphoma.
So it's a really expansive audience of just practitioners and their their specialties. But then, you know, really, we're not specific to any one product. So, you know, you think of your typical regimens in myeloma or in leukemias. You know, there might be 10 different regimens in each, and our assay fits along with each regimen in a different way, especially based on what we're doing, which is measurable residual disease.
So we have to be really the experts of our platform, but how it fits together with those different treatments and be almost treatment agnostic, but be well versed on those treatments and well versed on the emerging regimens and where our assay fits in.
And then maybe the other piece that I think really stands out as a differentiator that's exciting for us in this space that's unique is, you know, our team brings a lot of great value both to providers, but also the organization in terms of helping them understand the test results. So what I've come to appreciate with time is the test isn't that straightforward. You get a little booklet, and it's 5 pages long.
And sometimes as a practitioner, you just want to know, Hey, you know, are we talking a positive or negative result? There's a lot of caveats to that. So to me, it's a perfect niched opportunity for an MSL to come in, sit down with a provider, say, Hey, let me funnel this and and look at it and give you the, you know, the conclusion. Like, give you enough information to come to your conclusion and make an informed decision. I can be that guiding light for you.
I'll ask you a few questions that kind of peel back the layers of that onion. What's going on clinically with the patient? We match it up with the test results, gives you enough information to make that decision and and really just change your trajectory of treatment for that patient in front of you. Yeah. And you used the word value. And and listening to what you just said, it sounds like the diagnostic MSL brings a whole different level of value to the HCP. Is that is that fair to say?
I think so. And, again, one of those things that I saw with time and and saw differences relative therapeutic or kind of an advantage relative therapeutic is, you know, there's so much going on behind the scenes of how the test works. And so we have to be that credible expert on the technology, on why it's different, on what it offers, on what to do with it, and, you know, really how that shapes and informs treatment decisions.
But then what's fun, interesting, and, again, that value add is we we do a nice blend of both that technical, scientific knowledge, and the clinical to say then this is how we are changing therapy, how we're changing the landscape of oncology with our simple tests, but it applies across treatments.
So whether you're talking, you know, your different modalities and mechanisms, chemo regimens, targeted therapy, CAR T, there's a role for all of this, with our platform and or our platforms that are role with for combining with each of those. You know, so that's that's the fun. That's the exciting part. That's the value of saying, alright. You're using this treatment. Here's how our test fits in. How it's gonna inform what you can do next for your patient to maximize outcomes. Awesome.
Yeah. I mean, that's, that's interesting stuff, and I it makes me think. I know you know, it kind of felt like there was that that was a nuance with, you know, one of the differences between the diagnostic MSL and the therapeutic MSL. And I know that there's there are some differences as it might relate to relationships, with your commercial counterparts and, you know, on the marketing side. So how does how is that different? Because I believe that there are some nuances to that as well.
Yeah. I with that, I almost go back to a a coin phrase, you know, if it takes a village. And so I think we truly operate with that mentality here and in the diagnostic space in general because we truly end up being very provider centric. We recognize that there's a strong story, that we each play a strong role each side of the organization, commercial, marketing, and medical in particular. And it does take the collaboration to be effective.
So field medical MSLs provide that in-depth scientific clinical discussion, general education. The sales team promotes the product. They're they're also doing a lot of account management and pull through. And so all of those things have to happen in parallel, and sometimes in the same meeting. So we could sit down with the physician together with the provider team and say, Hey, let's do this joint meeting because we recognize that you need bits and pieces of everything that we each offer.
Even though we're a little bit siloed in it, we can do this joint light. Makes the best use of your time, maximizes the outcome, and really just helps get you onboarded, up and running with our platform, ordering and understanding what the results are thereafter. And that's where I think the the village piece really comes in. Right. Yep. And and I guess another thing, and and I I I hate to use the m word, but I'm I'm gonna have to do it because if I don't, I'm gonna hear about it.
So let's talk about metrics and deliverables. And, you know, how's that defined on the diagnostic side? Yeah. So, honestly, it's it's quite the same as what you'd see with a, pharmaceutical therapeutic company in particular. Yeah. We do the same thing in terms of working on territory plans, strategic account profiles, engaging providers, and, yeah, we keep keep a record of of who we're engaging, why, and when. But then it's really much more about the impact that we're having.
So that's through supporting, advocating for investigator initiated studies. It's, you know, the collection of insights and reporting back to the organization. It's, you know, really our effectiveness in delivering those report reviews and truly bringing that value to the organization, to the provider, and, ultimately, to the patient by spending that time really engaging providers, especially a first time provider, to say, hey. This is your test result.
Let's walk through so you know what you're looking at. You know how to understand it. You know where it fits in the paradigm of care for that patient, and you also know what to do next and when to test again next. Right. So that's, to me, is the real value piece is really relying on that impact on driving forward the education, the knowledge, awareness. And just honestly, then it ends up being continued use of our product. I'm I have a confession.
So when when we talked about this and you mentioned, like and we came up with this title about how similar Mhmm. The diagnostic role was. Like, in my mind, I'm like, yeah. I don't know. I kinda don't think it's that similar. Like, I'm thinking of, like, I'm gonna not try to debunk this, but I was gonna try to make ask as many questions as I could to try to, but it is similar.
Like you're not telling me anything that that leads me to believe or leads the, the listener to believe that there's this vast difference between these two worlds. You know, I guess, you know, looking at all of this stuff that we just talked about, you've been on both sides. Mhmm. So would you would you say that that, you know, seeing both, like, would you have a preference, or is there just pros and cons to each? Yeah. So I think there's I think there are pros and cons.
I I wouldn't say a preference in particular, and maybe that's just a neutral answer. Yeah. But maybe I I go back to some core things that I look for in a a career and a profession. And I would say it's as long as you enjoy what you're doing, you find fulfillment, reward in it, and you get to work with a great team, that's what matters most at the end of the day.
I do think, you know, my, altered view or my biased view in diagnostics right now, there is something fun about this space and the broader reach you can have across multiple disease states. The fact that it does require both that clinical expertise plus that deep scientific and technical knowledge, it it raises a fun challenge.
And, you know, I I look for when I'm talking with MSLs, maybe bring them into the team, you know, really seeing that they're passionate and motivated, but also that they can really do a profound job on the technical aspect. So I think that's a nuanced detail that does differ here. You can be great clinically, but we also need to be really strong scientifically and technically, especially as it comes to next generation sequencing in this case. Spoken like a true politician. A little bit.
Yeah. Listen. That was about as middle as you could get, which is great because you never know. There could be a future employer listening to this that might take your tooth. I don't know. You said you were a diagnostic guy. This isn't a thing. Right? No. That's that's I mean, I can totally see the benefits to to both sides.
And I I tell you, I I learned a lot from this conversation because, again, I will I mean, I've talked about this before, but this is this actually is, provides a lot of clarity to to the kind of the differences. Mhmm. So knowing getting off of the topic for a second, but knowing, where we stand right now in the medical affairs community and all the experience you have as a leader and, you know, hiring people and managing people.
What advice do you have, let's just say, for MSLs that are earlier in their career? Yeah. You hit a you hit a a good spot for me, Tom, because I love talking about this. I love engaging those who are just early in their career, helping them along. So I've got, like, maybe 3 or 4 items I could list off for you that, I'd summarize as be open to new experiences. I think it goes to this very conversation of diagnostic versus therapeutic.
I mentioned there a little bit earlier to be passionate, about what you do, how you do it in particular, what you wanna achieve, what you wanna deliver. One thing I learned in my career way back is never accept that, you know, the phrasing of no, it can't be done, or you could never make it happen. Never listen to those naysayers. You know, you can find a path, forge it on your own, and make that cross from commercial to medical or medical to commercial or therapeutics to diagnostics.
Don't let anybody tell you you can't do it. I'd also layer in just, you know, sometimes it's good to check your ambitions. So especially early in your career, it's, hey, I wanna be that top leader CEO one day. That's great. Just recognize, you know, and think about what matters to you most in your career. You know, again, I'll go back to coined phrases of money isn't everything, title isn't everything.
So sometimes you really just need to focus and double down on what is the work you do, what does it mean to you, how fulfilling is it, and really embrace those roles that are professionally fulfilling. It's the most important thing at the end of the day, you know, in terms of enjoying what you do and the people that you get to work with. That's probably one of the best things I've heard on this podcast in a long time. And and I'm gonna repeat that.
Like, I think it's so important to recognize that there's a body of work that goes beyond title and comp, that when you're building experience, transferable skills, and you have a real strong body of work, that's what's valuable to the next employer. That's your value right there. Your value is not necessarily in a title, and it's definitely not in a compensation package because those things come and go. Exactly. And there's no standard for that. Everybody judges it differently.
So what I love about what you just said is that if you focus on building your career on what's most important, which is the work itself Mhmm. Everything else takes care of It really does. You agree with that? A 100%. Yeah. Couldn't get it behind it more. Yeah. Awesome. Well, this was awesome. Keith, you're you're the man. I knew this would be great, and I'm I'm glad that we had a chance to finally do this. I know we've been talking about it for a while.
So, you're you're welcome to go back anytime. This is a great conversation. Guys, if you got value from this, please share it with your friends. And as always, we appreciate your support of this podcast, and we'll see you next time. Sounds great. Thanks for having me, Tom. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment.
Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.