Hey, guys. Welcome back to the podcast. My guest today is Chris Kasten. He's senior director of talent acquisition at Encarta Therapeutics, and we talk about how HR departments determine compensation and job titles for job offers. So this is an awesome conversation. Get a lot of questions on this. Hope you guys enjoy it. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel. Follow us on Instagram, and connect with me on LinkedIn if you haven't already. We'd love to to connect with you all.
And check us out on MSL Talk Live, which is the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST, and that's on the Clubhouse app. Hope to see you there. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Chris. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me, buddy. Yeah. No problem, Tom. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Awesome. Well, this is a treat for me because for those listening, Chris, I've known for probably 17 years.
So we go back a long way, and, I it's it's great when your clients become your friends and you keep in touch and and you get to know people. So that that would be Chris. He's awesome. You guys are gonna love this. So let's start with an introduction. Why introduce yourself and where you're from and all that good stuff? Sure. So I'm Chris Kaston. I'm a senior director and, head of Tola Rewards for senior director talent acquisition, in Carta Therapeutics.
Companies based in, South San Francisco, California. I personally am located in San Diego, so I'm a remote worker. But Tom and I have something in common as I was born and raised in the lovely state of New Jersey. I've been doing staffing, recruiting, talent acquisition in the life sciences for probably in excess of 25 years in a variety of capacities, most recently, in the corporate setting.
And what's awesome too about your background, just to jump in, is that you have experience with with large companies, with small start up companies. You've been doing this a long time. So you have a really good understanding of how companies develop their compensation programs, how they develop offers, what the formula is, and how it works, not just with the big boys, but with small companies too. Correct? For the most part, yeah. Like to think so.
Yep. Well, that's what we're gonna talk about today. We're we're gonna try to to give people some clarity on what they should expect or what they need to know when they're in the interview process and they're about to negotiate an offer, because I just really think people don't fully understand. I think one of the biggest problems is that people get advice, sometimes bad advice, from other people. So let's start with dispel the myth. Do I always negotiate? Do I do I always negotiate an offer?
Someone told me that never accept the first offer that's given to you. True or false? Well, I mean, if it's a great offer, take it. That's my that's, you know, my advice. Yeah. But, you know, do or should you negotiate? I think that's up to the individual, quite honestly. I mean, most cases these days, as you probably have seen, Tom, is that people are going to negotiate, whether it's, you know, through you or or directly through somebody, you know, like myself.
And then there are a number of factors that come into play, you know, as it relates to, you know, kind of if there's room or if there's if there's not room, you know, you know, on on my end, you know, During this process, at least certainly on the front end, when you're doing all the screening and interviewing, etcetera, you'd like to have an idea as to what expectations are. And then you kind of marry those in against sort of what, what, what a company can do. Right.
At the smaller companies, you tend to have a little bit more latitude because there's not a lot of infrastructure in place. Whereas at some of the larger companies, there may or there may not be, you know, so much room. So it all really depends on, you know, the situation and if they're an outlier candidate in a particular therapeutic area or something to that effect, those those certainly are gonna, you know, come into play. You know, and I get it. Everybody wants to get the best deal possible.
It's like Sure. It's like buying a house. Right? If you're selling a house, you always wanna get, you know, that you're getting a deal. It's the same thing when you get a job offer. Yeah. And I think too, there's, you know, there's other things to consider. Right? You know, what's what's it about for the candidate? And is it about the money? Is it about the title? Or is it about, you know, opportunity organization?
And then consequently, the people that you're going to work with and for and how they can, you know, inherently continue to grow and develop your professional skill set. I like to think that if those boxes can be can be checked, and if there if the delta is really not that significant between what they're really looking for and what's been presented, whether it's, you know, base bonus and other long term incentives piece, you know, I like to think it can work. That's just Yeah. For sure.
Yeah. So let's go back to let's say we're in the interview process. You're get candidates getting close to get an offer. What information from an HR standpoint, from your from your point of view, are you looking to gather from them in order to put together an offer? What do they need to be prepared to provide? Well, I like to at least have an idea as to what they're expecting. You know, in some cases, somebody will tell me exactly what they're earning. Right?
And, you know, in some cases, they like to just kind of provide a range. If I could be somewhere between x and y, you know, I I think that would be ideal. Now when you have that information, then you are able to go back and kind of look at what is available, you know, for that individual in that particular role within the organization. At some of the larger companies, it's pretty well defined.
You got your minimum, midpoint, maximums, and then you've got your equity that you have to, you know, kind of layer in, you know, to all of this. You know, at some of the smaller companies where there isn't a lot of infrastructure in place, you kind of have to figure out really what, what that kind of looks like based on, you know, based on data that you're gonna derive from, you know, various tools or resources that you all look to utilize there. Right. So first and foremost, be transparent.
Give the either the internal recruiter, HR person such as yourself, or external recruiter such as me as much detail as possible in what you're looking for, what you might be walking away from. So if it's bonus time or coming close to bonus time, you know, is there something that you're walking away from? If there's a long term incentive that's going to, for example, mature right? You have stock that's gonna mature in the next 3 months. So if you stay just for 3 more months, you get $50,000.
You leave, you lose a $50,000. Yeah. And then I and you can kinda play with the start date, you know, as it relates to those things. I think any information that you have, particular as at risk monies, certainly is going to come, you know, into play. But I think what happens to the less that, you know, the harder it becomes. Right? So somebody who's in my position, they're gonna have to get some levels of approval. Right? It's got it's got to go up the chain. Right?
Where I am now, I've got to go to the CEO. You know, in some cases, it may not necessarily go that high. Right? So if you're kind of guessing, speculating as to what the offer can be based on just, you know, data or in in or or internal equity, And then you say, okay, you get something approved, then you go back to the candidate and they say, well, that's really nice, but I was really hoping, you know, for this. And then then you kind of create questions. Mhmm. Right? So one, there's extra work.
Yeah. I don't think that's really that much of a big deal for, say, somebody like me. But then, you know, then the hiring manager might start to have some questions, you know, about the individual. Then maybe, you know, their line supervisor or executive director or VP may start to have some questions. Yeah. You know, is this really the kind of person, you know, that that we wanna have, you know, here?
I mean, we're 100% transparent culture, but we have that opportunity to do so because of where we are. And that's, you know, sort of where we're founded on, whereas, you know, you get to, you know, the, you know, the Pfizer's and, you know, the Merck's of the world, you know, the it might be perceived a little bit differently, but I think there's a lot of common themes that, you know, are gonna arise when you kinda have to go through that, you know, whole thing again.
Well, let me let's talk about let's go back a second to something you said. You know? Is this the person ultimately as we see what's coming out the way this person is handling themselves, handling this negotiation? Is this someone we wanna hire? Have you seen people, candidates in this situation kind of talk themselves out of the job offer and over negotiate? It happens. It's pretty rare. You know, you know, quite honestly, I think you sort of start to catch that on the front end.
You know, if you're doing the job right, as as you know, when you're assessing and evaluating candidates, just, you know, like I do on a pretty regular basis, you start to get a sense and feel, you know, for these things.
And then, you start to pick up, you know, certain signals, then I think that's the time where you might start to take away or walk away, you know, from somebody, you know, whereas when it's kind of at the end game, then, you know, it might be a little bit different, You know, you you they've already kind of passed the test, you know, a little bit. However, that there's still a flight that can be raised because they might be like, okay.
Well, if they're gonna be like this now, when it's kind of a situation where I don't wanna say it's kind of a pressurized situation, but it's a situation where, you know, they're really gonna have to make some decisions or they're really gonna have to, you know, be a leader, then I think, you know, those are kind of the things that, you know, might potentially pop up. Yeah. I've and it it does. It's you're right. It's rare.
I've seen it happen, and I I saw it happen once with a really solid guy who was a great candidate, but he was getting bad advice from somebody. Yep. He really pushed it and and did it outside of I mean, it was we would have a conversation, and he would go back and do the opposite. And so I was blindsided. The company was blindsided. Whoever was we later found out it was, like, his wife or something. But, and the company got really upset, and they say, you know what?
We don't wanna do business with this guy. We don't want him representing our company. Yeah. And from my end, what I do is I I I'm completely open, you know, and honest with folks. Right? I've gotta walk them through, you know, kind of where it's come from. Yeah. The offer is x. Okay. How did we get there? Yeah. You know, we'll be talking to somebody later today, and I had a conversation with them the other day. You are a candidate of choice. This is what we're going to do.
Yep. I am you know, you're gonna be the first person at this company that we've ever hired. Right? So no equity here. But there is a peer group at that particular level, so I will be looking at that. Now I'm going to also be looking at data. And this is the only data from a preeminent resource, and it's gonna be life sciences data in in South San Francisco in this particular job family. Now and and I'm gonna see what comes up as it relates to what you're ideally looking for.
Right. And if I see something that's a little bit off, I'm gonna give you a call. I'm gonna say, hey. You know, you gave me a range. Where's your flexibility here? You know, one way or another, maybe we could supplement it somehow. What are your thoughts on that? Knowing that those boxes that I mentioned previously have already been checked? And so you're right. And similarly, you know, let's say if I'm at new large company ABC, right. And those 8, aforementioned ranges. Right.
What you're going to have to be worried about with those kinds of people, if you will not try to categorize folks, but if they start to push that top end, right, let's say it's $250,000 Right? And the top end is 255. Right. But we're willing to do it. Right. We're willing to do it. But what's going to happen is that when the merit increase comes, right, let's say they get a 3 and a half percent increase on 250 ks. Where does that put them? That likely will put them over the 255 ks max range.
So that may not they put themselves in a unique position where a merit increase doesn't come to them. So then they out price themselves from further administrative development, you know, as well. So, you kind of have to be careful. And I've explained that to people say, hey, you know, here's the deal. We can we can potentially give it to you, but you're not going to get a raise for 2 years. How do you feel about that? So they're gonna be locked in.
They're not getting any kind of increase because it'll put them I mean, they may may be able to make up for it somehow with those some, you know, you know, $5 under the table here and there. That's not really true. But Right. But they have to be very careful, you know, of that. You know, you know, if you're looking at an MSL, you know, as as an example, you know, as you know, some folks like to be MSLs. I'm on the MSL. I'm a senior MSL.
Sometimes they go into regional roles or this or that, but some people just like to kind of be there. And then if you push that limit, then they're they're they're they're locked in. Now if they want to advance, maybe that there might be some room, but if the next level up also starts to move them, you know, in a different direction, it could be at the top end of an MSL. But that number could also put them at a higher level than maybe they might be looking to move into Mhmm.
As a next step, you know, should they advance. So if if you've got somebody that was on the inside who kinda has an understanding of all of that, and you're willing to explain it to them. And hopefully, you know, that can at least, I don't wanna say talk them off the ledge, but kind of make them say, okay. You know, maybe I am overextending myself. Maybe I am too full of myself, or maybe I am, you know, a little bit of this. And this guy is really, you know, trying to help me out here.
But you're, you know, as I'm listening to you, you're a very patient guy. And as an HR guy, you're explaining to Pete. A lot of times people don't get that kind of guidance. And, you know, so they're they're kinda going on the guest work. Different conversation. Yeah. So let's I'd love to hear a little bit more. You had mentioned that you look at ranges. So let's go back to that point where you get their compensation expectations, and you're putting together an offer. Is there a formula?
And what would that formula look like? And then you mentioned data. What data are you looking at? So, the larger companies that I've been with, I mean, they're very well established. Right? So they have all those things, you know, or already, you know, well well in place, you know, you know, at the smaller companies, we're we're we're we're kind of trying to get there, you know, a little bit.
And it's kind of hard, you know, to, you know, embed those into an organization, you know, kind of out of the gate. You probably have to wait until they're starting to get to 250, maybe 350 employees Mhmm. Or more because they have the infrastructure. They actually have all the functional areas, you know, in place. I mean, we don't have medical affairs. Right? So we have to kind of manage, you know, that, you know, a a little bit. But a lot of companies are founded on, you know, data in general.
So they're gonna be providing data, getting data, if you will, from a number of resources. It could be a Radford, you know, Towers parent or or what have you. And then they're going to get their ranges across all the various job families. Right. And then the next thing you have to do is really determine what your philosophy is because there's percentiles, you know, that are in there, you know, 50th percentile. Okay. Maybe we want to sit there holistically, you know, across the organization.
Okay. And then that's when you start to, you know, embed, you know, your ranges, you know, in there, maybe the 25th is your low end, maybe the 75th, you know, is your high end, but your 50th is your sweet spot. Right? And then you kind of go from there. Where's the, the, the population, you know, of a particular job family in the organization kind of sit within that, range, etcetera, that I had, that I had mentioned.
Region plays a role, you know, in that, you know, because San Francisco Bay Area is going to be a lot different than, the, the Research Triangle Park area that it's going to be different than, you know, the Greater Boston, you know, Cambridge area. Yep. You know, whereas, you know, some companies might just say, hey, our philosophy is 70 5th percentile. Right. You know, then if they're in a particular region, you know, let's call it the New York, New Jersey metro area. Right?
You know, back in the day, you know, where maybe there was a ton, not that there's not now, but you might have one company down the street from another company that has varying, you know, philosophies when it comes to comp. And then somebody is looking to make a change. They might be here. Whereas the other companies here. So that's why when I said, hey, they might just take it right away.
They might be at a 50th percentile philosophy company going to a 75th percentile company and gonna be like, woah, that's sweet. You know, I'll just I'll just jump at that. You know? Whereas it could be the other way around. Got you. So you have this, every company has their internal system, formulas, their ranges, their percentiles, their data sources that they're working on. We also hear this term internal equity.
Yeah. Can you talk about that and explain to people what that means and how that plays a factor in this? Sure. You know? So, I'm gonna use Bristol Myers. I apologize if I'm not allowed to do that, but that's when I worked quite closely together. They had a I think at the time, I had the had the largest MSL group, you know, in the industry. They were they were they were pretty they were pretty big. Yeah. And then you have, you know, the various therapeutic areas.
So if you have a population of 200 people, that are in the field as MSLs, you've got equity right there. 200 people. Okay. What is the delta or the average of all those 200 people in the field of medical science liaison role? It's X, right? But now we say, okay, well, virology is a cardiovascular is B oncology is C and you could break it down, you know, a little bit. That's when you that's where the equitable pool comes in.
You could say, okay, I've got 20 people, in oncology field medical that are earning a, and then your expectations are B, Where does that kind of fit in? Now let me take a look at some of the, you know, the the data, if you will, and kind of see, you know, how that layers in, you know, to, you know, to all of it. And it's and it's and sometimes you don't have to always have the greatest access to it. Right? You know, the smaller medium sized company, I'm a lot closer, you know, to it also.
You can kind of, you know, you have that visibility. So you just kind of have to, you know, work with it a little bit. Then you have a direct conversation with the hiring manager. If you have to go up, you know, to the ED or the VP or whatever, you start, you know, talking through it. And then if you're starting to notice trends, then you'd have to start to really have a conversation with folks in comp and say, hey, you know, have we done any market, you know, adjustments here?
Do we see any compression concerns? And maybe we need to kind of figure some things out? Yeah. It's tricky. The internal equity piece gets tricky. And anytime you hear that turn thrown around, it's And if you don't know the population Yeah. Of those folks that are internal, then it then it also can play a factor. So because as you know, in the field, you know, you can have, you know, an MSN versus an MD versus a PharmD versus a PhD versus an Miles per hour. Right?
1 might have x amount of years of experience, might one have x amount of years of experience. And then how does that come into play with with equity? You know, so you try not to look at it too blindly. You gotta try to really look into really who those people are and where, and where those inherent factors, you know, come into play.
And I've seen it, you know, in, in the, you know, in the data, you know, in the past, when you don't really, you're not too sure really where the, where the benchmarks are coming from. Right. Right. So I could look at, and I was actually looking at it today. You know, in medical affairs, you got MD, non MD. Right? Then you've got clinical science liaison, but it doesn't categorize anybody as a non MD or or an MD. And it doesn't categorize them by therapeutic area. Right?
So, but you have all your ranges in there by percentiles, 25th, 50th. So you have you have it all there. But what what does it really mean? Yep. Yeah. So you have to kind of figure it out. I think what's helpful for for folks like you and I is that we just happen to have been around a while. Yeah. So so we kind of kind of figure it out and not go about it, you know, so mechanically, you know, perhaps. When I think for job seekers, that that's a good cue to to now educate them.
You have to ask questions. You have to ask questions of your your recruiter, ask questions of your HR person when the time is right. You don't wanna start to ask questions about comp on your first interview. But when you're getting down to it and you've hopefully developed a good relationship with the internal HR person or with your recruiter, you wanna get some guidance. Hey. Listen. I just wanna ask you for some guidance on this. Here's what I'm thinking. What are your thoughts?
I don't, you know, obviously, I'm interested in the organization. Show interest first. But it's gotta be right. It's gotta be right for me. It's gotta be right for my family. It's gotta be right for my situation. Yeah. Doing that they put you too much too. Yeah. Yeah. Just put you in the relevant also there too. So it's not always gonna be about, you know, the administrative matters. You know, you gotta look at the human element. You know? Exactly. Exactly. So all things are coming together.
And we're talking about the package and the offer. And, of course, there's always the question about title. Uh-huh. And that can really vary from organization to organization, especially in the MSO world where there's really no standard. There's nothing that's been adopted, a governing body that said that, you know, the standard for the medical affairs community is if you have more than 2 years of experience, you're a senior.
If you have 5 plus year principal, if you have there is nothing like that. All companies do it different. So let's talk about that. What's your feelings on comp, and how should people approach it? I mean I'm sorry. Title. And how should people approach it? Well, it's it's leveling. So in the in in my experience, in the, in the MSO world, they're gonna come in at a particular level.
They're gonna go they're gonna be titled as a medical science liaison or senior medical science liaison, if you will. Mhmm. Right. But a company will level them. Okay. You know, as either, like, say, maybe it's a senior manager, maybe it's an associate director, or maybe it's a, a director. Mhmm. And then that's when the other pieces start to fall into place. So let's say they come in as an associate director. Right?
So most companies by plan, typically target bonuses somewhere in the neighborhood of 18%. Right? Director 20% depends on your organization. And then what if they're a publicly traded company, then they're going to be aligned with a certain amount of long term incentives, whether it's a combination of RSUs and stock options, stock options, or just RSUs, right? And it's all going to be done per level.
So when, you know, when I've talked to candidates before, today, it's a medical science liaison, senior medical science, what's what's the difference? It's experience, experience and education, right? If you've got a PhD, and you've got 10 years of experience, and 8 of it's at Home Depot, sorry, dude, but you're not going to be a director. Right.
You know, so we have to kind of play with all of that, you know, to to an extent, you know, and so then that's where I think that's how they kind of place them in a particular spot. So it's a pretty flat organization, in general, as you, as you know, in that, in that niche MSL. So it's MSL, senior MSL, regional lead, you know, director, therapeutic lead, close to an ed level, etcetera, unless they're looking to move. Right. They want it. Maybe I want to come in house.
Maybe I want to do this or that. Then, then you've got a different whole set of circumstances that await them from, from an internal mobility career ladder perspective. And would you say that in this leveling piece of it, would you say it's pretty scientific based upon just numbers and formulas, or is it negotiable? Can somebody negotiate it? I mean, they could. You know? But it's all gonna be based on who they are, what they've done and kind of where where they are. Right.
So, yeah, you've got a, you know, a farm D who's just finished a couple of years of a fellowship and then maybe has worked, you know, in house and medical communications for a year or so, you know, it's gonna be their first foray into working in the field. Right? It's it's very different, you know, then they have to look at time. Right? How much time is it going to take them to just adjust, you know, to say working from home, being on the road, traveling, all those kinds of things. Right?
And then that's one part. And then the other part is how long is it gonna take for them to actually be fully functioning, you know, in that role? I think it's one thing to look at education, years of experience. I always ask the question of time. Right? So okay. Great. Everybody has to acclimate and or assimilate to a new organization. Right? But how much time do you think it'll take for this person to be it's hard to be successful in this particular role?
1 month, 2 months, 3 months, that's a pretty good amount of time in my view, where you know that they're gonna fit at that particular level. Right. If you start to look at 4, 5 6 months, then I think you kind of have to kind of pull that back a little.
Yeah. You know, unless they've got some kind of experience that, you know, you're like, holy crap, I really got to have this person for, you know, for, you know, for whatever reason, you know, you know, I've been in cell therapy now for close to 6 years and you get somebody with immuno oncology who's got, you know, you know, ABC that he might be like, well, you know, maybe we might make, make an exception. However, the expectations aren't going to change.
Yeah. And they have to be fully aware of that. You know, my feeling is, and I tell people this all the time, I just try to educate people on to try not to get too stuck on a title because there's no level of con I I said it before. I'll say it again. There's no level of consistency. There's no standard in medical affairs. So each company's gonna call something different. Right.
And at the end of the day, you're gonna look at the person's resume or CV, and you're gonna say they have this many years of experience. And because of that experience and because of what they bring to the table, whether they're called senior or not senior, we consider them senior because they have 10 years of experience, 5 years of experience. But if you have 1 year of experience, and somehow you were you were named and titled a senior MSL, that's great.
Don't wanna take anything away from you for for that happening. But you might might not be perceived as a senior MSL at another organization if their formula is that you have to have more than 5 years of experience. So that's I mean, you try to bench you try to kinda figure it out. Right? You know, when you when you're trying to, you know, put things together, you know, internally.
So that's just a little little bit on a away from the talent acquisition side, a little bit more towards towards the HR side. But most companies I'd like to thank, you know, are gonna have some element of a of a ladder in place when it comes to mobility. Now what it does is you have to it's based on a couple of things. Right? It's, it's education, it's years of experience, and it's competencies.
So those are the the kind of what I was alluding to earlier, in terms of time is, like, what are the inherent competencies of a particular role? And if they haven't exhibited excuse me, exhibited those behaviors, you know, previously, then what's the time factor that's going to enable them to get to those other behaviors to have them be successful, you know, kind of in the next role? That makes sense. Yep. Totally. Totally. Alright. So let's let's kinda fast forward now.
Let's go to that part where so you get an offer. And let's just say you get a written offer. Sure. Has everything in it. It's got the title. It's got the salary. It's got all the compensation, all that stuff. Right? What is negotiable typically in that offer? Well, let let's hope that we've already gone through all of that before before I've gotten the letter out there because that's the way that I Alright. Well, let's say you don't get to that before you come back.
Yeah. But if they come back, you know, let's say something at that point, then, you know, you know, I, I might look at them a little bit differently. Alright. So before you get the let me rephrase the question. You're in the negotiation phase. What can people expect to negotiate? Well, they're gonna usually if if they're inclined to negotiate, they might wanna negotiate any number of things. Right? So there's 3 there'll be 3 elements, essentially.
Let's take relocation and some of the other things, you know, kind of out of the equation, you know, here. So salary, of course. Mhmm. Right? And let and let's say we've kind of gone through that. We've we've settled on something. Right? Success. Bonus, no. Not gonna happen. No way. No. No. Because that's in plan by level, and we've already determined, you know, by by comp, if you will, that the title base bonus established. Gotcha. Perhaps it's long term incentives. Right?
Some companies might have kind of a similar sort of window. Maybe there's a minimum, maybe there's a midpoint, and maybe there's a max. Mhmm. No. So and and not it's not something that's very overtly mentioned. Right? But typically, that will take another level, you know, of, you know, of approvals, to, you know, be able to integrate that particular piece, you know, into, into an offer. So what you what you end up doing in these types of negotiations is prolonging everything. Yeah. Right?
So now, you know, in the first case, you know, based comp titles that then you and you're trying to go back and then you've got business saying, what's wrong with this person? And what's wrong with you? You know, and then you you try to, like, you'll be the nice guy, you know, walking along, you know, tiptoe along the fence. Right? Yeah. You know, try to bring everybody together because that's what you wanna do.
You're gonna be that synergistic, you know, liaison, you know, if you will, throughout all of this. No, he's really not. He's really a nice guy. He's a nice guy. Yeah. But try to be realistic, you know, with, with all this stuff, I think at the end of the day, You know what the goal is? I like to think is that I want to be fair. Right? So fair and reasonable are 2 interesting words. Right? So I want to be fair and reasonable to everybody. Yeah. Right.
Company team, etcetera, you know, and the candidate. Right. Now, the funny thing is Tom, people don't always think I'm fair and reasonable. Right? Come on. And that's when you start to look at some of those nuanced, components of an offer and see what you can do. Now, some companies might say, Hey, we're, we're locked in here. We're locked in here. We're locked in here. Okay. Now maybe there's something else that they could do to supplement it.
Maybe it's a sign on bonus that that comes into play. Does some companies, you know, may feel funny about that? Well, they're they're local. They've already had their bonus paid out. They don't have any long term incentives, you know, at risk. We've already vetted all of that. Why? Right. Right. Why, why would we be willing, you know, to do that? Well, you know, I think it might get him over the hill, you know, sometimes like, yeah, whatever here's a check.
Whereas others, you know, they might need a little bit more. Right? So let's talk about that for a second because we haven't gotten into the sign on bonus piece. We'll get back to that other piece in Sure. What's negotiable. But you bring up sign on bonus, which was on my list to talk about. In your experience, when are sign on bonuses offered and what should people know about them? Well, it's justification for 1st and foremost.
So why why what's the justification behind giving somebody a sign on bonus? The the excuse me. The the the primary, reason is typically at risk money. Mhmm. Right? You know, make an offer to somebody in December. We want them to start in January. They've got a bonus coming to them in February. Mhmm. That's at risk. We have to overcome that. Yep. Right.
Maybe, the long term incentive piece, as you mentioned, you know, earlier, hey, you know, I've got a long term incentive hit, you know, in April, you know, and it's significant. You know, I leave now I'm going to, I'm going to walk away from it. Okay. What does that look like? Right. It's again, it's, it's information, right? What information is impactful, you know, in all of this. And some people you go back and they have, well, they're stocked in the tank.
That doesn't mean anything, you know, or they're pretty commercial and stock is valued at 0 or, you know, this or that. Or we might just say, Hey, you know what? Start in April. Right? Yeah. Or, in some cases, there could be a gap. Right? So maybe, maybe we can't get you to a. Right? So maybe we can get you sorted a, with, you know, some, some additional monies that we might just provide to you upfront. So, you know, there was got a perception of this too.
Right. And I can be like, well, you know, if you wanted 220, but we can only give you 205. Here's a 15 k sign up. That's 220. Right? You know, whereas everybody, they might come back and say, well, you know, my next time says it's really only, you know, this or that. And it's only for 1 year. And, you know, then you have to, you know, kind of go back and forth. Hopefully, you're not dealing with, you know, those types, you know, too often.
But, you know, sometimes companies can be creative, you know, around those things. Well, it serves a purpose. And you you hit the nail on the head. If there's a gap, if there's a case, it just can't be overcome where for whatever that's just sorry. Yep. Let's yeah. Let's just try to see if the sign on will make it better. Yeah. Alright. So that leads me to before we kinda wrap this up, you get the offer. And in the offer letter, there's a deadline or not. Maybe there is no deadline.
Maybe you got an offer, and nobody's telling you when you have to give an answer back. What is the standard? What how much time do people have to make a decision on an offer? I always ask them how much time do they need? Okay, right. And in some cases, I've heard there are extremes, right? You send it to me today. I'll sign it. Like, yeah, I'm in I'm thrilled. I can't wait to be a part of your organization.
Others might be, you know, interviewing, you know, at other places, you know, and and then like and and and as you're, you know, talking to them, you might be like, well, how does this compare to that? What are your thoughts on this? And like, you know, you know, those are all pretty good, But I really like your company. And then you say, okay, well, what's the timing look like?
Okay. So if I'm giving somebody an offer on a Monday, and they're wrapping up their interviews on a Wednesday, I might be like, how does Friday, you know, look for you? Yeah. And I just kind of work with the candidate, you know, a little bit, you know, on that. I've had people come back and say, Hey, you know, excuse me. I just need a little bit more time. And I say, why? Yeah. And depending upon the response will dictate, you know, how I feel about that.
And you've got to be careful because, you know, you don't hire managers, you know, but, but I want to just be conscious, you know, of catering to the needs again, you know, if everybody's kind of, again, walking that line, as long as you communicate something to me that I believe is true, and I trust you on all of that, then I can go back and say, Hey, look, you know, this is what the situation is. You know, maybe they could be on vacation.
I mean, there's all kinds of things, you know, that come in. I've let some people run by, you know, their, their, their date to respond. And it's, you know, it's a trusting, you know, kind of thing. I don't look at it one way or the other. I think maybe it's just the fact that it's been around too long.
But What I'm hearing you say and and if I could summarize, what I'm hearing you say is when it comes to the offer negotiation, be as transparent as possible, get the information in as early as possible, create a relationship, a strong relationship with your HR counterpart so that they trust you. And then that way, that level of trust and transparency is gonna get you on the same page, and you'll be able to communicate what it is that you want in the time that you want it.
You can negotiate without looking like you're overdoing it or you're being too pushy or you're not truly interested in the company or the job. Job. And then that way, that person is gonna be an advocate and maybe help you get through that finish line. Is is all that accurate? Yeah. I'd say for, you know, for for the most part, right? I mean, it's, you know, be yourself. Right?
You know, and if you're the kind of person that, you know, is there a very forthcoming for forthcoming, open, honest individual, you know, in in general, why change your behavior? Why change your style, really, at any given time, you know, you know, throughout the process? You know, if you've got, you know, an offer over here and an offer over here, and then you're not too sure what to do, and that's why you might need more time, I'd be like, fine. Okay. Well, what are, what are you thinking?
Like, what are, what are the differences? You know? And I might be like, yeah, you know, these guys aren't me 5,000 more, but I really like you guys. Could you give me 5,000 more? I'll see what I could do. And there's another element of the negotiation or it might be like, Hey, it's because of this. I'm just, I'm just torn. Right. And, you know, and not a lot of people, you know, as you probably experienced, you know, that are, that are in my position get that close.
Right. You know, I don't know if that makes me an outlier or not, but it's the way that I kind of operate and just happens to work. You know, whereas others may be dealing directly say with somebody like you, I know you're an upfront honest guy, and you're not going to pull any punches here, which is, which is good. Even the hiring managers that they're dealing directly with them are kind of the same way.
You know, also, so I did say just just be continue to be yourself and be, you know, be who you are. And I think I think those consistent behaviors will really, really bode well for somebody. That's great advice, Chris. That is a great way to end it. So you've heard it here from the experienced tenured guy that knows the inner workings. So hey. Thank you for coming on, pal. You were awesome. I really appreciate it.
Thanks, Tom. It's, great to be here, and, you know, hopefully, this provides, you know, some value and insight to, to the folks out there. Sure it will. Alright, man. Well, thanks for joining me, everybody. You guys have a great rest of your day, and come back. We'll see you soon. Right. Take care. Thanks, man. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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