Hey guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Alicia Bullock. She's the founder of insight HR. And we talk about change management and what pharma leaders should do to handle bad news and setbacks. So really important topic right now. Timing wise, big announcement. Don't forget to sign up for Mass West, which is coming up September 25th 26th, and that's in San Diego, California. It's the medical affairs strategic Summit by Fierce Life Sciences.
It's a great medical affairs event with networking, amazing content. You don't wanna miss it. Mass East was epic. It was one of the best ones I've ever been to. So sign up. Go to just go to Google and type in Mass West 2024, and the registration information will be in there. So I look forward to seeing you in San Diego. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Alicia. Welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Hey, Tom. Great to see you. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So, hey, guys. So Alicia and I know each other for actually for a long time. I mean, we go back. Sheesh. I don't even wanna say how long, but it's a long time. I'm dating both of us by saying it. But, so Alicia is someone that I know from the HR side of the equation. And she's brilliant and has like really amazing, like insights and knowledge and depth of experience.
So we're gonna talk about a very, very, important and relevant and current topic. But before we get into it, Alicia, why don't you do a quick introduction? Sure. Thanks, Tom. So, yes, 20 years. So if I've just dated us, I'm sorry about that. Man. So a little bit about me. So I have spent 25 years, in HR, predominantly as an HR business partner. Most of those years have been with pharmaceutical companies and supporting clients across the globe from r and d, commercial, supply chain.
And I I think relevant to the topic today, Tom, I think, you know, as part of my role as a business partner is really helping leaders and organizations navigate that change. You know, everything from communications to strategy to implementation to sometimes the the unfortunate side of of impacts and and helping companies and employees really be resilient as an aftermath and reengage them post change.
Yep. More currently is, you know, from my own consulting firm, which I started about 2 years ago. I think still operating in that space and and providing leadership coaching and and team development. You know, to teams and to leaders, you know, in that same respect, you know, as they continue to go through their own transitions personally and professionally. Cool. Awesome. Well, I'm excited. And yeah. So we're gonna talk about change management.
And for those of you who aren't totally familiar with that topic, it's it's really kind of an HR, the title or topic. And, we're gonna talk about it as it relates to the pharmaceutical industry and the volatility and what happens when companies get bad news and how internally there are ways of handling that, that change in order to maintain the culture. So before we, I don't want to get too far ahead, but can we start with Alicia?
What, like what that topic or that title change management, can you describe what that is? What it refers to? Sure. So I think when we hear the term change management, it feels like this really ominous term. And I think very simply, change management is how we manage change. I think it's the process of of planning for a change, executing a change, and then reinforcing the change. And I think that the thoughtfulness that goes into each one of those phases. Right?
So when I think about planning the change, who do we need to involve? What is the strategy behind it? So really that why. Why are we making this change? What's the rationale of the business? And then that second phase around managing the change. Right? And that's where I think a lot of times when people think of change management, we think about communications. And communications, while the really important part of of change management as a whole, is not the only part. Right?
Because then you have to implement it and that change might be new structures, processes, systems. And then, you know, after we do the the announcement of some of the early integration of change, then there's gonna be the the reinforcing change. How are we making sure that the change sticks? That we are recognizing, you know, the the change that has happened. We are celebrating.
You know, what we, our employees, have come along that change and and celebrating this new stage for the future state of the company. So when I think of change management, it's going to be that entire process from planning to implementing, and then I think sustaining it and reinforcing it. And it's funny. When I think of change management, I almost always think of it as something that happens after an event or a crisis or news or some thing that affects the employees of an organization.
So can you just, can you elaborate on that? Am I, am I, am I correct in saying that? And if so, are there typical events that would influence change management? Sure. I think you're spot on with everything that you've just said. And I also in particularly in the pharma world, there might be some nuances that are specific to this industry, and that could be regulatory changes. Right?
A regulatory change that may require organizations to, change internal operations, you know, or how we look at compliance. There could be patent expiration. There could be product recalls. You know, how do we manage the both the internal change and how do we manage the relationship, the investor relations? How do we manage messages to to customers and patients in those scenarios?
There's, I think, more of the general terms of what happens or what triggers a organizational change, and that could be cost optimization. You know, it's it's an unfortunate, but it's a reality of doing businesses. Businesses need to remain profitable. You know? And as such, you know, organizations may take measures to streamline operations, bringing new technologies to make things more efficient and simpler.
Downside of that is going to be there's gonna be skill sets that employees have that might not be as relevant, and we need to bring a new set. So that might cause, you know, a change, of talent. I think there's other there's change, I think, that happens at the organization level, but I also wouldn't underestimate the changes that happens in a more local level. Maybe we're going into a new geography. Maybe we are consolidating a footprint in different countries.
Maybe it's just a a function, and there's been a really tenured leader that's there, who may be retiring. Right? A change in leadership can also trigger, you know, the sentiment of change management. It might not require as much really big architected or, you know, orchestrated change planning, but I think that there is there's elements of change that are the emotional side.
That might not be, again, a big organizational change, but a local change that can trigger, you know, how we care for employees throughout that process. Okay. So a lot to unpack there. But looking at all of what you just said, all those things, all those organizational changes. So something happens. Yes. Okay. And there's an organizational event of some sort. What's the first thing that should happen next?
I think as we define what the event is, there's the communications that I think are the catalyst for the cascade. Right? The conversations or the announcements that are made even at the organizational level down through the department level to the employee level. And even though we see that that being the I'll call it the triggering event of communication, I think what happens after that, that first wave is going to be that continued conversation.
Because we can say why this is happening at a company, why it's great for the company, and and what's changing. But, you know, as humans, our natural default position is going to be, what about me? How does this change for me? What is my role? And so to get down to that specificity to the individual, it can be nothing's changing for you. It could be your manager's changing, your team's changing, but your role is staying the same.
It could be as different as we're no longer selling a product, We're no longer operating in market. Or the opposite end of that spectrum could be your positions being eliminated. And so when I think about communications, we talked about that being sort of that start of that implement implementation of change is gonna be the thoughtfulness of that cascade whereby where I've seen good change management efforts, Tom, it's been every employee has a touch point. And that could be an email.
It can be an individual call, but there is something where we are caring for every employee who is impacted or even not impacting that change from an awareness perspective. Where I've seen companies maybe go a little bit, you know, outside of that cycle is nothing's changing for that employee, so we don't need to say anything. And in the absence of information, what do we do? We make stuff up. We make up our stories. Or we cobble together rumors just to create something that makes sense for us.
So to answer your question, I think post that announcement, there is a very heavy lift, I think, on communications. The repetition, and I think creating multiple touch points. Meaning, the more we hear it, the more we ask questions and answer questions for employees is going to be the start of how do we help them get their head around what is changing in various degrees? Yeah. And that's so important.
What you're saying, I feel like if if there's no communication or lack of a communication or if employees aren't informed Mhmm. With something, they're gonna think the worst. Absolutely. An idle mind is a devil's workshop. Right? So if if an employee if an event happens, news or an announcement, and an employee is uninformed, And it's like, oh, nothing to see here. Business as usual. Could you hear that? Oh, yeah. It's just business as usual. It's like, yeah.
I don't know about that because I just heard this. And then what happens is they think the worst and they think of their friend or friends that were in a similar situation and they lost their job or whatever. So I think it's I totally agree with the importance of it. I think it's a total mistake to to under communicate. But as I'm thinking about this, what are the mistakes? You've been doing this a long time.
Like, what are the common mistakes that companies make when it relates to this whole, you know, change management and, event and organizational event management type of of process? Sure. So I think we touched on a big one, which is lack of communication. Some of the other mistakes that I see are going to be ignoring feedback. We communicate to employee base and we go, great. They get it. They understood. Business as usual. Let's move on.
And what we've done is assume the people are on board or assume that if they don't like the change that they're not on board. And what we haven't done in that process, we've allowed the the employee to emotionally process the change, which is part of them getting on board. Right? So when we say ignoring feedback, how do leaders create channels by which employees are saying, wow, this stinks, or I'm not quite sure I understand, or how will I be successful?
This might not change for me, but I'm really feeling disconnected because I just lost the manager that I used to work for who brought me into the organization. Or, wow, this person sat on my floor, and I saw them every day, and now now that that office space is gonna be vacant. Right? And so creating those channels by which employees can can share, can be heard.
I think also is if we ignore the feedback from employees, that feedback that employees are giving us can help inform what might be the messages that we missed, that we didn't think of. What might be a common concern that we say, you know what? We do have a resource for that. Or if we don't, we need to build it. So with that cycle of feedback is also helpful. I think if we ignore that, we are we're not giving the opportunities to process through their own change.
I think another important element as well is having navigated some of these change plans within organizations. We do a really nice job of preparing leaders for the event of communication. But what we don't do is and where I think we could do better is helping employees understand that emotional cycle. Just because an employee is not bought in on day 1 or expresses frustration or confusion, let's not write them off. Right?
But we have to help managers understand how to help employees through their own emotional curve. Right? And I think that's a skill that's not developed necessarily in the moment of the change plan. Right? That's a skill that I think will serve leaders and people managers before the change, during the change, and and after the change. I think another mistake that I that is also very common. Right? We we talk about changes constant. Right?
How many times have we said that or reiterated that phrase? And then we we look at the landscape now. You know, change is becoming faster and faster. Right? More changes are just are layered on is is understanding where the organization right now stands in terms of change fatigue. Right? If this change is now happening on the heels of another big change in the organization, where's the emotional and mental capacity of these employees to absorb yet another change?
You know, or is this this, you know, this apathy or this exhaustion that exists? And so I think having a good pulse on what your culture is before the change will help inform the pace at which you introduce new change. What are the messages that tie together so it doesn't feel like, oh, and something else? Like, it's death by a 1000 cuts. Right? And so I I think making sure that there's a cohesive picture. Is there a really strong vision? Is there a strategy?
And I think if we don't connect those messages, it can feel like, oh, and another thing. And then there's a cycle of we're just we're waiting for that shoe, that other shoe to drop. Yeah. I I I mean, that's I think that's really valuable. The question now I'm thinking, you know, who who's responsible for doing the heavy lifting? How does Yeah. How does how do things get implemented? How does change management actually get implemented? Sure. I would say very much as a shared responsibility.
I don't think it's the responsibility of a single party. And your senior leadership. Right? Whoever is at the the top levels of leadership where this change is gonna be impacted, They have that responsibility to understand and design what the strategy is. You know? And and how does this change help support either department functionality, organizational strategy, you know, or or future state vision. I think from there, it's understanding, you know, who those stakeholders are. Right?
So within that senior leadership, you know, who are gonna be those key players that are gonna play the face of that? I think your middle management. Right? Your directors, your first line people managers have the responsibility to understand what's expected from them in terms of what are the messages that I need to tell my team.
They are going to be those front lines of of executing the change and being the the first point of contact from the from the employees who are gonna be responsible for for helping implement that change. You know? So your middle managers and your directors, they're probably gonna get the tidal wave of emotion from the majority of your employee base.
So they have the responsibility to not only understand the change, get themselves through it, but also be on the front lines to help further the communication. Some other key roles that are in the organization, your HR leaders, your you know, if you bring in specialist for change, your communications lead, they're all going to be important stakeholders to help, again, you know, design. What are we saying? How are we saying it? How are we supporting employees?
How are we getting a pulse on engagement throughout this process? We're saying the right messages internally and externally. And I think your biggest population that also has a responsibility in this time is gonna be your employees. No. If there's a change that's happening to me or my role in my organization, I have the responsibility to listen to the communications, read the emails, ask questions, get that clarity, share how I'm feeling. You know, check my own emotions through this as well.
How am I feeling? You know? And where do I do a little bit of self management? But then also, you know, step into a proactive role to what do I need to understand? And what do I need support for to accept this change. Now with that, though, I think the assumption that a 100% of employees are gonna get on board is really optimistic, and we'd love to say that that was the case.
But there are gonna be employees, I think, who go through their own change version and may take longer or may not come around at all. But I I think in overall is every group that I just mentioned plays an important role. Right? If there's no direction, if there's no strategy, if there's no communication and there's no employee ownership in that, there's gonna be some fail points in your change plan. So I think the responsibility is shared over everyone.
Well, I think there's it's this is this is so critical because one of the byproducts that I see from events and announcements, is the toxic culture that could eventually develop and grow if it's not handled properly. And if it's not handled quickly, I just see it. And once it happens, and as a recruiter, you know, we get the phone calls from the employees, from these companies, and we hear about how things have been handled and we learn about the toxicity that now exists.
So how would a company, after handling an event, be able to prevent that toxic culture from even even happening? What I would start with is if you already if an organization already has a toxic culture, any change management is gonna be an uphill battle. Right? If the culture is already one where there is lack of trust, lack of transparency, divisiveness, you know, in in the culture itself, change management is gonna be really hard. Because now we're saying, hey.
You didn't trust me before, but we're gonna implement this change. It's gonna be great for this organization, and we need you to get along and trust me. And and that's a really hard sell. I think to prevent or or or to minimize any toxicity on the other side is I've seen change management. And and I think in some of the cases that we're talking about that are really prevalent in the media today, which is organizations making the decision to lay off. So I'll I'll speak from that angle if I may.
And that is when organization makes the decision to to cut jobs. Right? People are impacted. Jobs are impacted. Is there's the initial resentment. Why me? How did you choose? And then there's this other concept, which is your survivor syndrome. Right? I'm a layoff survivor, and that comes with another bag of emotions that are are not always positive. Right? I'm how did they pick me? Right? There's there may be some shaking confidence in there.
There might be the when is the other shoe drop that I was speaking about before or gosh, I feel really guilty because I got to stay and they didn't. And and all of those emotions can can cause a sort of undercurrent of negativity, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's toxic. Right? I think it's allowing those emotions to process. Change management sometimes is so much let's plan and let's execute. And if anybody has an emotion, they're not on board, and that's not true. We are humans.
We are complex. We will have emotions, and negativity does not equate to toxicity. And how do we prevent that? And I think we prevent that by, one, listening. What are people's concerns? Helping know you know, helping those employees know that listen, we we care. And and that doesn't come up, we care now. We didn't care before, but now that we've changed, we care now. So it speaks to what is the culture that you're building in advance of a change?
And for I've seen reductions in force go really, really well and having worked at a company where from an HR perspective, we we made sure that communications were clear. Employees got information timely. We provided supporting resources. So whether that is outplacement services, whether that be resume support writing, whether that be job fairs, whether that be we're really tapping into our referral networks to help employees.
I think when when employees are vulnerable, whether they've been impacted or not, our ability as leaders to just be human can go a really long way, and it's not may not change the decision. The decision was made for position elimination. How we treat another person can go miles. You know? And how they experience that. Again, they're not gonna like the decision, but how we treat somebody in those moments, does a couple things.
I think, 1, it helps the reputation of that organization and that impact in employees eyes to go, wow. They had to make a business decision. But I really value how they treated me even though if I didn't like the decision. The other side of the organization, your retained organization that stay. Right? That that survivor group. They're looking at how the organization are is treating employees who are leaving. Right?
And that creates the perception of, well, my company, they had to make a tough decision, but they really treated those employees with dignity, with respect, you know, with a heavy degree of support. And that leaves a lasting impression. Tom, one of my most memorable moments in my career was when an employee in my client group came to me and said, wow, that was a really tough decision. But I will never forget how kind you were.
How empathetic you were and the support you put around me during this really tough time. And and that comment is 20 years data, but it will stay with me through my career. And I think where employees and organizations can get this wrong, you know, if I'm at liberty to say that, is thinking that once we communicate, we shift people off. We get the retained organization to keep going, and we'll all forget about it because it's in the rearviewer and full steam ahead and we're gonna forget about it.
And if you didn't have a toxic culture to start with, how you treat employees through these really tough times could either create a toxic culture that you didn't anticipate because you didn't give credit to treating people with dignity and respect through through these changes. I think that's that's so important. I think that just what you said about just treating people with respect and dignity and understand the human element that's involved in these difficult times.
And that's why HR is called human resources because you guys are resources for that human element and the way you treat people, especially during the difficult times is what ultimately resonates with them. And that's how. A culture is won or lost. It's the reputation of an organization. How do you treat people? How do you make them feel? And how do you support them? You talked about resources and, you know, so if there is a layoff, what resources are you going to make available to them?
Little shameless plug. Don't forget to order my book, Job Search Mastery, How to Win Your Dream Job, if you find yourself in that situation. Kidding but serious. My book's helping a lot of people. But the idea is to, for organizations, I really think to make sure that it's not just an announcement and okay, everybody's going to be fine business as usual, nothing to see here. But let's talk about, we haven't really talked about the employee side of the equation. Let's flip it to the employee.
What would, what advice do you have, on how employees should be handling changes and news that they may get as they're cruising along in their normal career in the normal day? Sure. So employees play a really active role. And and this isn't just in regards to organizational change, but I think this is applicable to personal change as well. So I hope what I'm about to share is helpful in both regards. And that is there's something that's that happens. Right?
There is either a message from an organization, news from there could be media, right, you know, that we read that, you know, you know, triggers some sort of emotion. And I think for employees first to recognize what is that emotion and where is it coming from. And and all of us are gonna have perception in terms of, well, this emotion is bad. Right?
And we react on that versus there's gonna be this emotion, but there has to be this pause that I think is so important to say, what do I know and what do I don't know? What do I need to know and where do I get it from? Right? And I I think employees playing a really accurate role in informing themselves so they can make a decision that's best for them. And and I loved your phrase earlier, where in the absence of information, we make up stories. And how do those stories get made up?
We we hear from friends and family or former colleagues that were had a really bad experience in a layoff. Or we go down the rabbit hole, you know, in news and media outlets about, you know, what's the worst that could happen. Right? You you know, you open up any media outlet, it's going to lend itself to more negative news. Right? And that's all the things that feed us when we have this emotion. Chicken Little, the sky is falling. Right?
Versus the you know, as an employee, again, what do I need to know and where do I get it from? Gather data, ask questions, get clarity, and truly figure out what this means for me. I think as change is done well, there's elements of change well beyond the communication that talk about rebuilding that organization. Right? If I'm an employee, what are the skills that I'm going to need to have differently? How will I be successful? How will the organization support me in being successful?
And I think as you build in that information, you go from a a point of, you know, lack of understanding and lack of awareness to inform consciousness. Right? I now know what's ahead of me. I now know what to navigate. I now know what I need. But in that time, I think there's also this choice. And and in that choice, I as an employee to say, yes. I subscribe to this change, and I'm all in. And I'm gonna keep myself informed, engaged, proactive, and and I'm gonna commit to this change.
And there might be a you know, hopefully, a small camp of employees that say, this isn't aligned to what I wanna do. And this is no longer the right environment for me, and they may opt out. But I think as an employee, recognize that you you preserve that that choice, you know, to go along with the change and inform yourself or to opt out. But my my advice to employees is to say, act on information, not just emotion. Good tip. Good advice. And you mentioned so we talk about terms.
You had mentioned a term to me. You said use the term organizational energy. So can you talk about that and describe what that is? Sure. When I use the term organizational energy, I equate almost a a current. Right? A a tide almost. Right? The the momentum in, say, the ocean. Right? You've got tides coming in out. There's there's that similarity of that current that exists in an organization. What contributes to that? It can be either you know, a lot of that is gonna be your culture. Right?
How decisions are made, how information is communicated is gonna create this current in terms of how organizations evolve, thrive, or not thrive. Right? If the organization if the current in an organization is one based on trust, transparency, resilience, adaptability, right, all of those tenants are built in before the change, That current is going to help accelerate that change. Right? It's gonna be working in that same direction. You know, differently is if you're facing headwinds. Right?
If you're facing we've already done a ton of change in the organization. There's not trust. Maybe the organization is not in a really good financial position. Right? Maybe there's gonna be, you know, some of the other challenges we talked about that are prevalent in the pharma industry around, you know, products and regulatory. If all of those are headwinds in the organization, you may not have that same internal current that's gonna carry that change program, and make it harder.
Like I said, they're gonna end up showing up as either a resistance, or lack of engagement or retention issues. So that organizational energy I speak to is gonna be that current. I think can actually work in favor of a change or it can, you know, help them or it can impede a change and and make it more challenging than, an organization as a really positive culture.
Well, I hope that this information will bring positive organizational, energy and the right emotion to the organizations and people that are listening to this, because we've seen so much of the alternative where we see the volatility of what's happening even currently right now, the layoffs and announcements and everything else, just kind of have, a very negative energy. And, and I use the word toxic before.
I think that that's just, that's a, that's like this word that gets attached to culture sometimes. So I hope this information was helpful. Alicia, thank you. You were awesome. Thanks for joining me here. For having me. I really appreciate it. I I think the role that the HR's end leaders can play, is so much about that preplanning. However, you know, if I if I were to leave, you know, you and and the listeners with anything, Tom, it would be is going back to, you know, treat people like people.
We we've all experienced personally and professionally, you know, some some unfortunate, you know, or, unfavorable news. You know? And and we have a choice in in how we respond to that. But I think equally, organizations are, you know, that responsibility. I think, 1, for their own reputation, but also for the success of of their business in the future is, you know, investing and helping employees be successful wherever they land, on that side of the change. So thank you.
This is a great conversation. It was. Awesome. And thank you again. And, guys, thank you for for joining me, and thank you for making this one of the fastest growing podcasts in the pharma world. And if you got value out of this, please share it with others. And as always, thank you for your support. We'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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