Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Carol Lawler. She is national director of field medical at Alkermes, and she comes on to discuss her career resiliency story and how she overcame a layoff, an unexpected layoff. So great conversation. Carol's great. I think you guys are really gonna like this. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn because I post everything on LinkedIn. I think it's a really good idea to kinda make sure you either connect with me or follow me.
Also, subscribe to our YouTube channel because all the episodes go up on YouTube now. And check us out, if you haven't already, on MSL talk live, which is a live discussion. And that's the 1st Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Carol. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. It's great to see you again. Thanks for having me with be with you. Awesome. Awesome. So, yeah.
I mean, let's start with I always like to tell people kinda how things develop. So Carol and I know each other for a long time, and I ran into her recently at a conference. And we started talking, and she basically caught me up to speed from the last time we spoke and told me this incredible story. And I said to her, you know what? I wish I was recording this because this would be an awesome podcast. And here we are. So Carol is gonna tell you guys her amazing story.
But before we do that, let me have, let me have you introduce yourself, Carol, so you can let everyone know who you are and where you're from and all that stuff. Great. Thanks, Tom. So I am Carol Boweslawler. I am a family practice physician by training. I practiced in, the Philadelphia suburbs for about 27 years. I joined industry just about 6 years ago. Total, I would say, midlife, career change that I really, wanted to do at that time. So it's been a it's been an a great avenue for me.
I've really loved the change. I met Tom at a time in my life where I was very down, and and I I kind of brought you up to speed the last time we saw each other, Tom. But I reached out to you, about five and a half years ago when I had joined industry and found myself in a little bit of despair. So I guess we will we will go on with that story. Well, let's before we get into that story, so let's talk a little bit about your background.
So you came from practice, and then what made you wanna get into industry, and how did you kinda go about transitioning into industry? I think it was always something that was in the back of my mind. As I said, I practice family practice. I had a number of patients who had been with me for so many years, generations. At one point, I remember having 4 generations of the same family that I was caring for. So I did beginning of life through end of life and, saw people through a lot of crazy.
To me, it was a very valuable experience. It was I loved my career, but I think I was at the point where I wanted to do something different. As you know, electronic medical records, you you hear this all the time from physicians, have changed the way medicine is practiced. It's it's very good in some aspects because you have access to records from across different hospital systems and and specialties, but it definitely impede patient care. You don't have that that face to face interaction.
You're you're constantly in computers and and typing away instead of having that face to face interaction. And I think being a people person, that that really got to me. I found myself doing 15, 16 hours of work every day just trying to finish up charts, keep charts up to date, email patients back and forth. It it really became very difficult. So I started to started to think what did I wanna do that might still utilize my my skills but change things up a little bit?
And I made the decision to go back and I get my MBA. So I applied and and, started my MBA through Saint Jude University that has an executive program where I didn't have to take, the testing. They would they would honor, you know, my my MCAT from how many years ago and and my graduate degree from medical school from eons ago, and and I was accepted. So I started their their executive, hybrid online program. I think I was the 2nd class that they actually went through.
And, I I got through 2 classes when I actually, was, offered an industry position. So I I think utilizing that decision and and going back to school definitely definitely, you know, made me more accessible to other options. Got you. Alright. So then you're you're getting and I I have conversations with folks that are are that come from some type of clinical practice, and are ready to do something else.
And they look into the pharmaceutical industry as a place where, well, I can I can transition and do something in industry to get me out of, you know, kind of, you know, not that not that it's a bad situation, but it becomes more challenging as you described? Did you have an idea of what type of role you wanted to to transition into? You know, Tom, I really didn't. I I thought I wanted to be a medical director. You know, it's the only thing I I could think. I guess I'll be a medical director.
I never ever even heard of an MSL before. I never had an MSL ever come into my office. Family practice physicians generally don't see MSL. They they will generally target those specialists within whatever disease they represent. So family practice, for the most part, is not an arena where MSLs will will search you out unless you are a true leader in one of their therapeutic areas. So I never really knew anything about being an MSL, but I thought I did some investigating.
And I'm like, well, what else is available? And I and I just started searching on my own through LinkedIn, through through Indeed, through lots of the online sites to see, you know, what is available, pharma, medical. You know, I was putting in, you know, little buzzwords, and and I actually found this position myself that was with a company that was a was a new pivotal, I would say, hybrid program. They were they were hiring physicians, as a pilot program.
So, I actually applied, to that program with many many, chains of interviews and whatnot presentation. And I'll I'll I'll tell you a little joke at this point. I have never done a PowerPoint presentation in my life up until that point, and I've given lots of lectures. I have spoken for companies. But until that time, I never made a a PowerPoint presentation in my life. You know, I I went to school a long time ago before computers were ever utilized like they are.
And when they said, we need you need to go do a presentation, and I said, okay. I'm I can present to to anybody. And then I said, well, where are the slides? And they said, you have to make the slides. And it was, like, like, a little pause, and I acted like, oh, I do this every day. And I'm like, okay. I could do this. You know, I I I'm a physician. I can figure out PowerPoint. So I called in friends, kids, everybody to help me do this PowerPoint presentation for my interview.
So I think it's it's, knowing your weaknesses and getting the help that you need to to achieve what you need to get done was the was the learning lesson that probably started my career. Yeah. And it worked out because you landed the job. Right? I did. I landed the job, and it it as I said, it was it was actually a a, physician's position where they hired 2 2, physicians. The other physician was in a geogar a separate geographic area than me.
I live in Pennsylvania. So I had all of Pennsylvania to work actually as an in house speaker for the company to go out and talk to primary care physicians because, as we know, IDNs and and, hospital systems are closing off conversation with commercial. So they they saw this as an innovative way to be able to get out and speak to primary care physicians without bringing in a rep to the office, which was not being allowed by a lot of the hospital systems. So I would go in and educate.
So I was trained as an in house speaker on disease, on product, on on, you know, general things like, patient centered home, things like that, population health, things that I could go in and educate that might be disease specific, but also could just be general terms. And I and I started the job and, really was enjoying it. I I just onboarded. I had just gotten, you know, to start going out and meeting some some clinicians when, life kinda changed a little bit for me. So then what happened?
So let's let's let's get into it. What happened next? So this is when you and I you and I met. I I as I said, I was loving it, and it's just to backtrack a little bit. When I when I had to go tell my patients I was leaving, tell my hospital system I was leaving, I cried for days. I I would say goodbye to people that had been in my life for 25, 27 years. As I said, generations of of patients, I I took care I was a medical director at a nursing home.
People that I had just really, I would say, were my friends. You know, they were my work patients, but they I became very close to them, and a lot of them were, I would say, were my were my work friends. So I made that decision. I remember telling the hospital, dark side. You know? Because that's always the dark side when you when you come from, medicine. So I started I I said goodbye to everybody. I got through that that little trauma and drama and was really enjoying life.
And I, got a call one day from my director who said, we're having layoffs. I don't want you to worry about it. It is a large pharma company, you know, large, large, 40,000 internationally, I think, was the number at the time. We're only laying off a 1,000 people. Don't worry. You're safe. This is a new program. Everything is gonna be fine. So all of a sudden, I get a call the day that they were saying the calls were coming out.
And I was told that, you know, with a new position, it was it was a pilot position, and they were not going to continue it. So here I was, 3 months after giving up my career that I had for 27 years, finding myself in a position where I now and I I told people I was fired. They were they were like, you weren't fired. You they had layoffs. And I'm like, but in my mind, I was fired.
Yeah. So it was it was a it was a one of those moments where you have to just self reflect and decide, did I make the wrong decision? What happened here? What am I gonna do with my life? I've never found myself without a job my whole life. My career was very successful. I I really felt dejected. I I didn't know what to do. So, this is around the holidays? This was this was this was November of 2016. I got hired in August of of 16, and this is November of 16 that it that it actually happened.
And the, recruiter from the company I was working with at the time, I reached out and I said, where do I go from here? What do I do? And the company had had given us, you know, a a a nice package. So I had some comfort zone there, some comfort room. And he he, said, you know, you you can go on the different sites, and he actually gave me your name. That's how I how I actually, he had worked with you in the past. He said, you know, I I know this person. Wanna give Tom a call.
So I called you couple days later, probably still in my robe that I didn't get out of for about 3 days as as my kids were worried about me. They're like, has mom showered today? You know, and there's, you know, one's at school and one's one's still home with me. And they're like, no. I kinda think she looks the same, and and you and I know each other.
And I get up every day and make sure I look perfect, but that was a time when I think I was in my robe and and and hair askew, all day long because I just didn't know what to do with my life. So I reached out to you and and told you my situation, and you said, you know, Carol, you you have you you got the industry experience. I think that's probably the the first lesson you you taught me was I already had my foot in the door. I had industry experience. You said, what do you wanna do?
And I said, well, you know, I've been kinda looking around, and I think I wanna be an MSL. I said, I I I I look at the criteria. I need to do that. I I had some industry experience, you know, with speaking. I can educate. That's what I wanna do. And given that it was right around Thanksgiving of of, 16, as I said, you said, you know, nothing's gonna be open right now. Companies aren't hiring. Let's touch base after the beginning of the year and see what's available, but there's nothing here.
Well, I didn't wanna hear there's nothing here. So I I said to you, yeah. We'll we'll connect it for the beginning of the year, and I I made it my job to find a job. And I was on the computer, I would say, 8, 10, 12 hours a day just looking and applying and and and redoing my my my CV because now I did have industry experience, which I didn't have when I first joined. So I I went on to LinkedIn. I I I I scooped up my, my LinkedIn profile because I have to tell you, physicians don't use LinkedIn.
They're all on LinkedIn, but they they don't use LinkedIn the way people that are actively in in industry do. You know? I didn't know the buzzwords. I didn't know what should be on there. So I started just investigating, you know, what does an MSL do? And I started getting some of those buzzwords onto my onto my CV and onto my LinkedIn profile. Apply to anything and everything that I could find that I thought was relevant to an MSL role.
Disease states that rare diseases that I never even heard of, I was applying. I just I just put my name out there and and and send send things in. I would say after probably 3 weeks, I had I gotten a couple a couple of recruiters, calling me back, first interviews, and things start to move. And and I was glad about that. So I started pursuing them. And one day, I picked up the phone, and it was it was the gentleman that just said Carol, and I said yes.
And he introduced himself, and I he was actually a friend of my old manager where I had been laid off from. And he said I was given your name, and I wanna talk to you about a position I have. And we met at a Starbucks a couple days later. We sat and talked for 3 hours. I was brought in, to the company the next week for a series of interviews, and I started at my at my current, company as an MSL in January of 2017. So I had about 6 weeks of unemployment, which I I hated every moment of.
My friends telling me, don't worry. Like, you're getting paid. You have benefits. What are you worried about? Like, enjoy this time. And I said, if you know me, I have to be busy. And if if I had planned for it and I knew I could take vacation or take up golf or something like that, if I if I knew I was gonna be retiring, you know, I would have planned for it. This totally caught me off guard, and I realized, no. I have to work, and I just need to figure out my life. And and that's what I did.
I I I made it my job to find a job, and I I guess it's a a lesson in resiliency that I wasn't gonna take now. I know you told me, just give it 6 weeks. We'll look after beginning of the year. You have 6 months that, you know, to find a job with the with the package that they gave you. Don't worry about it. But I wanted to see what was out there, and and, it all worked out. And I've I've been with my current company for 5 years. I've I've moved up. I'm no longer an MSL.
I actually lead our MSL team for the northeast now. So it's, it's been a a wonderful career. As I look back on that time, I think I could've gone back to the hospital system and kinda tucked my tail under my mind and said, you know what? You were right. Industry is a bad, bad, bad place. You don't wanna go there, but I knew how much I liked it in that in those couple months I actually worked. So I I thought, I'm not gonna do this.
I'm gonna see what I can do on my own, and and it and it worked out. Well, I'll tell you, it there was so much to unpack there. First and foremost, you know, when you in hindsight, that 6 weeks is really nothing in comparison to what a lot of people go through. Sometimes people are out for 6 months. So there are people that are probably listening to this podcast that have been looking for a job for 6 months, or they've been out of work for 6 months.
So I think one of the main lessons here is that you can't get discouraged. You gotta get out of your robe, put the Ben and Jerry's container down, and get after it. Get to work. Obviously, you you just said it. You getting a job became your job, and you did everything in your power morning, noon, and night to position yourself. And, ultimately, one of the things that's really interesting about this story is you ultimately wound up getting a job through a a prior contact or colleague.
It was more of a networking thing because your prior boss put you in position. So it just goes to show how important it is to create strong relationships and do a good job wherever you are because you don't know who's gonna be in a position to help you. But let's go back a second. You know, you had mentioned that because there again, there are a lot of people that are that are listening to this that are probably like, wow. This is inspiring because I'm not feeling like I'll ever get another job.
Did you feel like that? What were you going through, like, you know, mentally at that time? I think the word I could I could use that is I was feeling dejected. You know, I had never failed at anything in my life. I things came easily to me, and here's all of a sudden I made this career choice to give up something where I was successful, where where I could've ridden out my the rest of my life being a being a practicing physician, but I decided I wanted to do something differently.
So definitely definitely dejected. I think alone, you know, when you work for industry and especially, you know, in a in a field based job, you don't have those people that you met internally. So I didn't need a lot of people, you know, when I first started with with with the with big industry. I met the little people in my in my department, which was probably about 10 or 15 that I would go in and, you know, with with my training.
So I didn't have anybody that I could really relate to because none of my friends, none of my colleagues were were actually in industry because it was so short lived. So I think I felt very alone and dejected are probably the best words I could use. But I think you have to still maintain that confidence in your self and that's and that's what I didn't give up on. I I I kept saying to myself, you know, you can do this. You've been through a lot of hardship in your life.
You've you've had some hard times. This is just one of those other times you gotta push yourself. And and as I said, I applied to I applied for MSL jobs in diseases I didn't even know. And I was reading about diseases I didn't even know and became somewhat of an expert to be able to go and talk about it in interviews. Like, I can't begin to tell you some of them, but they were rare diseases that, you know, as we know, there might be a 100 people in the country that have them.
And I'm like, oh, yeah. I think I heard about this way back when, but, you know, I didn't really know about it. So I think you just have to put yourself out there and know the basic skills that you have, and then what can you learn to add to those skills. So looking at your going back, I mean, you went from that moment, like you said, dejected and, you know, kinda second guessing yourself just to know I'm gonna get my confidence back. I'm gonna take action, and I'm gonna I'm gonna get something.
You kept an open mind. You applied to a lot of different things even outside of your comfort zone therapeutically. Land a job, become an MSL, and then 6 years later, you're head of medical affairs. Correct? I'm not ahead of medical affairs. I lead our our field medical team. So, we we have 4 national directors. I'm one of them in for our company, and I I run a team in the northeast.
So Yeah. You know, I went from being an MSL to a senior MSL to becoming involved inside the strategy as an MSL and then and then moving up to to, lead in our field team in the northeast. That's amazing. I mean, that's that's an amazing story. And and that's why I couldn't wait to have you on because I wanted to share this story of of resilience and, and inspiration and hard work and, you know, how to wage your own comeback and and forge your own destiny.
So when you you know, people that are, you know, that are struggling right now that were that are maybe in the position that you were in, maybe someone who's going through a career transition, someone that just got a demotion or a layoff. What other advice do you have for these folks? Make sure to speak to colleagues. As as you heard from my story, my old manager introduced me to my my new manager. You know, they so keep those bonds.
Even as you, perhaps, aren't working for that same company, keep in touch with the people that that were there. You know, you you didn't leave, hopefully, under under adverse conditions. It it was through no fault of your own sometimes that there are layoffs and and you're you just end up being a number, and that's what was explained to me. I ended up being just one of those numbers that had to had to, had to had to kind of be let go. Reach out to others.
I think LinkedIn, I get I get all sorts of request from people. I have no idea who they are to connect, and sometimes it's just, you know, how do I get an industry? So reach out to people that might be a company that you are interested in to try to find a common link and and perhaps have a conversation that could lead to an introduction. I think I think they're probably the best get to know recruiters like yourself. You you know you know where the market is.
Find find out find out what's available and and also know what you really wanna do. So if it's an MSL position and you're open to any disease, you know, you just have to go in and and kind of put the boots on the ground and and learn everything you can about that disease. And there's lots of people that transition to other diseases that have nothing to do with what they started in. So I'm I'm in CNS. I'm in central nervous. As a p as a primary care physician, we know a a little bit about a lot.
So, you know, I treat a lot of anxiety, depression, you know, those diseases. But was I treating schizophrenia, which is what I was hired to do with this company? Absolutely not. But I I quickly became and as I was talking to, you know, some of my HTTs and and and thought leaders, they thought I was a psychiatrist when I they just knew I was a physician as I was speaking to them. And and and when I started family practice, they said, how did you learn all this? And I said, you just learn it.
You know, you just have to learn it. So I think it's not always that area that you might feel the most comfortable in that you can succeed. Yeah. Yeah. You have to find a way. And and I love I love your story. I love the confidence that you kept the whole time even when you were down. I love this advice. I think it's really good practical advice. I'm sure there's a lot of people taking notes, and there's a lot of takeaways from this.
So as we look in, you know, looking in medical affairs right now, it's obviously evolving. And I know that in your role, I'm sure you've probably seen a lot of change. So what what are you seeing as far as new roles or new ideas or new opportunities that are kind of emerging in medical affairs now that people might wanna consider? I think it's it's being flexible and not necessarily thinking, oh, I only wanna be an MSL.
So in our company, there are MSLs that have now transitioned and they're part of training. You know, there's there's companies that everyone needs trainers and some use outside trainers and some have their internal trainers. So who's better to train new MSLs than somebody that has been out there in the field already? So our company has utilized previous MSLs for that position. You know, overseeing a team. I I do miss being in the field and talking to clinicians all day long.
I love getting out with my team and and meeting meeting our thought leaders, whether it's a conference, whether it's it's doing field rides with them. I I love having those conversations. You can be a manager, but you need to still know what's going on, and I I like to I like to get out there and and continue the conversation. You know, there's always the roles moving moving up and and, becoming involved more in strategy and and becoming a medical director.
There's lots of people from the field who have moved up and and work have worked internally now and and moved into positions of of true leadership internally. You know, med MedInfo. I have one MSL that actually works works on my team, and and and he has gotten involved.
He's very good with with looking at the data that we're bringing in with insights, and and he has really helped compile our data to to a state of the art system working within that info that we can pull out, you know, what what are the key insights, you know, you know, what's what's the top five we're hearing in it in whatever disease state that we wanna look up. And, you know, it used to be very delayed that we would get that information.
So I think there's lots of opportunities and you don't know until you until you really get in. And and our company offers the opportunity to work in mentorship programs. So, you know, you let a manager know that I'm really interested in doing doing, in that info or I really would like to learn more about the pipeline, what's going on there. If you express an interest, people will take you up on it because there's always a need for help.
But if you don't ever express that, they're not gonna know you wanna do it. We talk about that all the time on this podcast. You have to raise your hand. It's so important, and it's so important to be proactive in your own career. And let you look at your story. I mean, your your your whole story is about being proactive, and not being reactive and not sitting home and waiting for the phone to ring or waiting for somebody to help put you in the right position.
Even going back to when you were coming from practice to take the initiative to be able to say, okay. Now I wanna go into industry. What do I wanna do? Let me put myself out there. So it's an amazing story. So last question. What other advice can you offer folks that are looking to build a career in medical affairs? Keep your connections going, I think, is probably the best thing the best thing I can say. It's it's talk to people about what what you like and what you don't like.
Don't ever give up. There's there's so many different opportunities. I think getting your foot in the door, so it might not be your dream job if you're trying to get in and become an MSO. Take a position that sounds interesting to you. I'm not saying take any position, but take a position that you know you would be interested in and make yourself the best within that. There's lots of people that will use that intro MSL job to get to something else.
That was never what I intended to do, but it is kinda work what worked out for me is I got my foot in the door and and got that 3 months of of, industry experience. I I went on to further my education. I didn't have a business background, and I thought by having a business background, that would that would give me something else to utilize. So I I took it upon myself to go back and get my MBA. I I started in my fifties, you know, getting an MBA, and I think that's that's another avenue.
Education, you can never have enough of in my mind. So, you know, keep educating yourself whatever it is that that you think you need to to make yourself better. Awesome. Carol, you're awesome. This was great. I love your story. I couldn't wait to share it, and I'm so glad that, it's funny. I I, you know, I you you just kinda came out of the blue, and I saw you. I'm like, Carol, and it's just so great to be reconnected. It's so great to hear that you're doing so well.
Congratulations on all your success, and thank you for coming on and sharing your story. Tom, it really is a pleasure. I I do listen, and I said this to you. I listen at the gym. I, you know, I'm filming the car. I put it on Spotify. I have learned a lot listening to your your various interviews, and some are more pertinent to me. And even though I am in industry, I learned something from people all the time.
I think I think some of the the medical symposia that you can attend, you know, that are industry, related, you can always pick up little little little, innuendos that can you can add to your your life story. So I appreciate you doing these podcasts. I found them very valuable, and I hope, anyone listening will will learn that resilience is everything, stay positive, and and, you know, just keep following your dream. Things will work out if you if you just keep trying. For sure.
Well, thank you again. You're awesome, and, best of luck. Keep cranking. I hope everything continues to go, to go well with you and with your career. Thanks, Tom. Great to see you. Thank you so much for listening to the show. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss an episode in the future and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and we look forward to seeing you soon.