Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. Today, my guest is Norwood Harris, consultant medical science liaison trainer, professional mentor, and original MSL. And we discuss MSL career development behavioral competencies that will help you obtain career longevity and stability. I think you guys will like this. Check it out. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Norwood. Welcome, buddy. How you doing? Tom, how you doing?
Good to see you this morning. How have you been? I've been great. I've been great. I'm excited, man. Thank you so much for joining us. I think, I think you have so much to offer, and I'm really glad that you're taking time to, to share some of your knowledge with us. Well, first of all, I'd like to thank you for inviting me, and and my goal, obviously, is to be helpful to our community at MSL. So whatever I can do to help out and share, I welcome the opportunity today. Awesome. Awesome.
Well, that's great. Why don't why don't we start if you wanna just do, like, a little bit of, you know, intro, talk about your background and what you're up to these days. That'd be great. Okay. Well well, let's put it this way. I'm gonna be brief on that because it's not about me. I had my turn. But let me just share with you some key points.
I'm an alumnus from Long Island University, marketing major, bachelor's of science there, attending the honorary Schwartz College of Pharmacy, received my master's, and to round myself off, played a little sports back in the day, mid major little hoops. So that that goes with my college background. But as far as my, career path in farmer, I've Tom, I've had some great opportunities. 30 years just not 5 companies, not 2 just 2 companies. Not 5, 6, and 7, just 2 companies. 30 years.
Many different roles on the commercial side that started 1980. Sandoz, s a n d o z. We merged with CEVA GeGe. Became Novartis in 96. Many roles on the commercial side from specialty trainer, managed care, long term care, and then also regional trainer and working training in corporate when needing. But finally finally receiving the opportunity to be medical sign liaison associates, versus some of the other competitors, Pfizer, Upjohn, and and maybe J&J.
There were very few medical sign liaison programs in the industry in the eighties. Yeah. Sure. Oh, I tell you, it was it was and quite frankly, we were considered the original MSL. And that's another that's another podcast story, though. That's a whole another story. To do versus what you're doing today. Yeah. But the bottom line is is that, we call them basic science and clinical, but be short of it. Yeah. And, very proud to say that my we only had 35. Most companies had a 100, 200 people.
We only had 35 people. So you can imagine, Tom, lobbying to get that promotion to our and that's what I'm here to share with, a lot of the, colleagues here today this morning. Yeah. And, you know, it's you know, when like, that that's one of the reasons why I really wanted you to come on and tell your story. Because having a career as long as you did and only working for really 2 companies is extremely rare to have that kind of career longevity and stability.
So that's what I was kinda hoping you would share with folks. So MSLs that are listening to this podcast that are looking to establish themselves for the long haul, and have a long career and maybe have that longevity with, you know, just a few companies. Can you share some advice with those guys? Oh, I I just welcome the opportunity. One other key important factor keeping in mind so I worked for Merck 13 years, 6 promotions. I worked for Novartis, 17 years, 5 promotions.
So, obviously, Tom, I think I sorta understood what they need to be doing to get ahead. Yeah. So I'd be more than happy to share that. The big thing is this, right in front of us, having passion. Mhmm. Having passion, having a belief, choosing the right company. You know, I'm I I I I interact with other, representatives. As you know, I'm doing a consulting now, and I'm, also an adjunct at Rutgers for a time.
And as I try to help others, we need to have a passion for a particular therapeutic area. People are just signing up with the first company that hires them, and they don't have a clue. They're thinking about their bills. They're thinking about this, that, and the other. But in other words, is it CV? Is it CNS? Is it cancer? You need to have a focus. You have a focus and then also doing your homework. What what what's their pipeline look like? How how deep is it? You know?
Is is the pipeline gonna be be able to support you in that company? That's why some people don't last long enough because the product line that they chose and then I'm quite sure, Tom, correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of MSLs specialize in 1 therapeutic area. That was been my cornerstone that I've been in many therapeutic areas. Right. And so that's crucial. The other key factors being building your sense of being a resource to the company. Mhmm. You're a valuable resource.
You differentiated yourself, and when it comes time for change, upheaval, you were able to stand out. You're able to differentiate yourself. So those are some of the key cornerstones that I would suggest. And then, of course, once again, this you've heard many times. Over my courses of of career, whether I had my review that year or not, mid year review or end of the year review, I would do a SWOT analysis on myself. What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? What are my opportunities?
What are my threats? That gives me a direction for every year, and I worked that in. And all the years I've been working and then also being a new person, I said to myself, who's the gold standard of the MSL group? In other words, part of 6 Sigma is benchmarking to the gold standard. So who's the gold standard? Whose name what's his or her name that keeps coming up?
What are they doing that I need to mirror image to some degree to be seen in that regard in upper management, to still be here employed. Those are some of the high points. I love that. And I and I think in this day and age, when there's a lot of layoffs and there's a lot of acquisitions, and turnover. What you said about making yourself a valuable resource, and maybe taking that extra step so that you're establishing yourself above your peers when it comes time, and they're doing the layoffs.
You're too valuable of a resource to be included. So would you say that that was was that you? I mean, obviously, if if if you were able to withstand or or able to have all those promotions and withstand all those years at companies, there had to have been layoffs. Right? Well, let me put it to you this way, Tom. Let me put it to you this way. We I went through 2 different mergers in both companies. Mhmm. Remember Sandoz merged with Steve and Geige? Yep. Pork merged with Shearing Plow.
Through those 30 years, there were layoffs. They were downsizing. They were upsizing, things going on. Many a time, people were going out the door, and I was getting promoted. Okay. What does that mean? I'm covering major teaching academic I had NYU. I had Mount Sinai. I had Columbia Presbyterian. But why? I knew the key players in CNS. CNS is a big area. So those for schizophrenia, those for depression, those for Parkinson's, those for migraine.
So we're calling on neurologists and psychiatrists. Then I'm in another wearing another hat one time or another. I'm on the CV side. Heart failure, hypnothermia, hypertension, diabetes. So now we're talking about lipidologists and endocrinologists and cardiologists. My point is living in your accounts, whether you had a product or not that's my other key point I wanna highlight. Hopefully, everyone's listening to this point. You have a focus. You have objectives.
You're working in cancer right now or you're working in ophthalmology on some type of key area there. You still should find out in your academic centers who are the main players in all therapeutic areas. This is something I learned from my mentors. I didn't get to focus on that. Keep in mind, I received a lot of promotions. I didn't do it by myself, Tom. Mhmm. I had a lot of help. I had mentors, not just 1 or 2, many mentors. Many women and men who helped me in my career.
I had sponsors who spoke by name when I was not in the room. I had people who connected me to the right individuals that, when I was new, associate with this person here, this person over here. You're wasting your time. That person is not going anywhere. In other words, just like as as we did spending your time with the key players and the confidant, and also add advocates. In other words, you need an advisory board of individuals, and that's who championed my course.
So I didn't do it by myself. Yeah. Oh, no. No way. Yeah. Well, there's so there's a lot to unpack here. Let's go back. I I think that one of the things that I see with your situation is that you work for large companies, and that's very different. There are probably some people on this podcast that are working for very small, tiny companies. You know, years years ago, only large companies hired MSLs. Now everybody hires MSLs. Companies that have employees have MSLs. Exactly.
So for small companies, it is almost always paramount that you are highly specialized. So if the small company is in oncology, you need to be an expert in oncology. But to your point with large companies that have multiple therapeutic areas, you establish yourself as a valuable resource and network with other therapeutic areas just in case they can get what you you can be in position maybe for a promotion in another therapeutic area.
I think it depends on the organization, but is that what you're saying? That's what I'm saying. But then also, let me pick up back a point here. Even with the small companies, they are interfacing with the commercial side that I used to be part of. Remember? Mhmm. So they have hospital reps. They have managed care people. They have specialists. They have the training department. This is their opportune home, and that's what I used to do because remember, I was also a regional trainer.
Mhmm. And I worked in corporate and training, whether it be on the MSL side or commercial side. They need to be updated. Mhmm. Once a year, twice a year, what's going on? Because we're overlapping. We're working together as a unit. We have a different role. I'm not selling, they're selling, but we're calling on some of the same customers. Mhmm. They're they're in a teaching capacity, clinical capacity, research capacity. We are seeing some of the same customers.
So I learned when I was a specialist and I had a MSL, reason why he and she did well was because I had act better access than they did. So that's why I'm saying to you that you can lobby that. Then the other key point that makes you very valuable in a sense that your manager has someone coming in from, corporate headquarters, marketing, research to ride with you. Can you get in for the day or 2? So I was able to lobby and and and have contacts, and the more contacts.
Now keep in mind, Tom, a lot of the other MSOs might not volunteer to have someone ride with them for 2 or 3 days. That's that's kinda deep. Right. But I welcome that opportunity, and that's what I mean about being proactive. Those type of things help you stay longer because you are working towards a team player and wanting to be a contributor and not running away from opportunity.
So it sounds like what you're saying in in looking back at your career, you were really uber proactive in in your networking with internal stakeholders. And partners. Yes. As you know, to to develop advocates. Like you said, you develop almost your own advisory board, which is a great way to put it. And then, also, keep in mind this. We have the KOLs that they give us a list on, but it's up to us to dig a little deeper. There's some advocates. There's some thought leaders.
There's some other stakeholders that they didn't even know about. They're on the 2nd and third tier who are aspiring to be on that a level. But right now, they're c and b. Mhmm. So that's this this helping to differentiate how I'm looking at my base of customers versus someone else and for development. Got you. Yeah. So, obviously, you know, just looking back, you established yourself, with internal stakeholders, external stakeholders.
You basically went out and you were just the this relationship building machine. Correct. But keeping but keeping in mind keeping in mind the objectives, our mission from our manager and director of what was important. Those are the other extra items. Because, as I said again, what I learned from some of the senior professionals were that things are constantly changing. So you might be, as I alluded to earlier, if you're on the CV side, I'm dealing with heart failure.
I might be dealing with hypoglycemia. I might be dealing with hypertension. It's a revolving door, so that's why you have to be very flexible. And as I said again, by you having more experience in different therapeutic areas, you will not be forgotten. You're gonna be part of the team. Yeah. So let's talk about you had mentioned management.
Obviously, you know, you wanna make sure you're following the goals of the organization and and, you know, hitting your metrics and you know, so what role would you say management plays in supporting you as an MSL in your career? Well, it's a two way street to be quite frankly. It's that the relationship is going both ways and, quite frankly, come out of self for a minute. What's important? How can I support my manager and director? Mhmm. In other words, reverse psychology.
How else can I be helpful to the group? And at the same time frame, you should be able to have that first meeting with your manager, coffee or lunch or whatever, and discuss your objectives, for development. What is the development track here for you? Mention some of your, aspirations and how you can grow and how we can merge his or her concerns of growing as a manager and yourself. You know, you need to have that dialogue.
Maybe there's other training programs, any type of workshop programs that are going on. We wanna make sure you express your interest. So it's a combination of working together. Keep in mind, things are evolving quickly and Farmer, as you know. And it's not that your manager's overlooking you, but you have to run him or her, hey. I'd like to have a sit down with you to discuss career path development. Now some smaller companies, Tom, may not have a track.
They may not have a program as they do in larger industries that I work for. That's why you have to really show your passion and you're not just passing through here. You're not just checking boxes. You want to be here for a good period of time and you're looking to make inroads. So when you come in that format, you are engaging your manager to know that, yes, he's or she wants to progress further. What how can I help him or her? Right. So this is all their attention. What's that?
You're gaining their attention because you are expressing an interest for longevity. Right. Right. So it's again, goes back to what you were saying or what we were both saying about being proactive.
Like, you need to be proactive in the way you position yourself within the organization, in the eyes of your manager, and then you set yourself up for whether it's promotion or, you know, any type of advancement, but you're setting yourself you're actually establishing your own stability within your organization. Is that accurate to say? Yes. That's accurate to say, but also being proactive in the sense and anticipating the needs.
Now you're gonna learn the needs because you just went out with someone from research the other day or someone from marketing the other day, and you're getting spews of information as they're riding with you for the day, a 2 day visit, calling on key customers. You're learning from them where we're headed a little bit. See? That's where the network becomes a before this virus that we've had, we've also had used to have workshops. We used to have conferences. You might remember those days.
Sure. Where we had didactics. Yeah. So with those, weekly meetings, most people go to breakfast, lunch, and dinner with their group. This is your opportune time at a meeting to break away from your group, have a evening dinner or lunch with marketing or with disease management or other sectors to learn what's going on in the company, and guess what? They're learning who you are. So you're more than just your name. They know your personality because you reached out to them.
So instead of, spending time so much with just your group who you already know, you should always be venturing out at any type of national meeting, workshops. Spend time meeting other people so they get to know who you are and what you have to offer, and, also, you're learning from them. Yeah. Very important. Very important. No. I I agree. I agree with that. And I, you know, I think getting back, you know, you had talked about management and, you know, we talk about managing your manager. Right?
And, I've heard you talk about that many times. You know, what it what does exactly that mean, and and and how can you elaborate or offer more advice on that piece? Well, this is where your high emotional intelligence comes in. This is where, Tom, we've all had psychology many years ago. If you're a business major, you had it in marketing, psychology. We talk about Maslow. Who is this person in front of you? Who is she or he? What are their needs and wants?
Yep. In other words, in the triangle of Maslow, we all remember that this person is safety conscious. This person is more in a sense of seeing more documentation. So this person is very rigid, very conservative. Who's your manager? What makes them tick? How can I motivate them? That's what we're talking about. And then clarifying their wants and needs, what's the way they like to do things? Are they laying on a larger report? Is it what's their format that's important to them?
So the more support I can be to them, being less intrusive, being a team player, either go to person to some degree, you're gonna do outstanding because you're not a problem. You're helping him or her. And then here's the last thing a lot of people don't think about. Your manager is the other managers. So now how does your manager fare versus the other managers? Say that there's 12 managers. Is he or she the top third, the middle third, or the bottom third?
And they're trying to motivate their manager on things that they're trying to do in the company. Right. So that's why you need to know know what's going on. Just as as me as a MSL, I've been ranked versus other MSLs. And for those of us who wanna stay longer, you need to be in that top tier grouping. So if it's 20 or whatnot so the thing same thing goes for managers, clarifying their wants and needs. How can I support them?
Time management is crucial because they have they're shuffling things day in and day out. So time management is a very, very important factor. So you don't wanna waste your time with them, especially when you have a field visit. And then the last thing is I alluded to, for the larger companies, you have research, you have marketing, you have c r CRA Group who are setting up the studies.
They need to have know that when they have someone ride with you, you're getting them in to see the customers that need to be seen for the day. They can count on you. Right. You're reliable. Right. So, I mean, I that's this is really valuable advice. So, basically, in a nutshell, you really need to fully understand what makes your manager tick, what's absolutely critical, most important for your manager, for the organization, and you make that your goal to to make them happy?
Obviously, on both sides, you know, for your manager, you know, and the organization. So how would you say as it relates to, like, the performance review? You know, how do you prepare for that? Position yourself? Like, what you know, obviously, everybody wants to impress their manager. So by understanding their wants, their goals, what makes them tick, does all that just fall in line? Or Well, for me, not to boast or brag, I say, stay humble, but for me, I didn't have a problem with that.
As you can see, if I had 11 promotions in 30 years, so that means I had it to every 2 7 months, I have a new assignment. Yeah. I I think I figured it out what needs to be done. So so without boasting or bragging, but that's the fact. No. Listen. That's why I went to the master. You're a rock star. I figured you're at home. No. No. I gotta stay humble. So my point is, to answer your question, this is where we would talk about ranking and preparing.
You wanna be so proactive in having all your information. You're you're my manager, Tom, and you forgot that I did x y z. So I gotta put out all my files, all my information, have everything organized. A lot of times and when you do ride along, you get a field visit Yep. From marketing. You get a field visit from from your boss, your boss's boss, someone from research. So you gather all your information. It's an ongoing type of evaluation.
It's not just that one afternoon in July or June and December. You're being evaluated along the path. So if I'm sending you a annual report, a quarterly report, or biweekly report, whatever it is, being transparent, being forthright, knew how you can look underneath and know, oh, Paris is accomplishing this this month. This is so you see my goals and objectives. Everything is right out in front of you. It's a easy win. You should already know your ranking to some degree.
And then, also, you do an evaluation. Remember I talked about evaluating already? Yep. You should do do your own appraisal as to your time management, finances, all the things that you have responsibility for as reports to make it easier for her or him. Yeah. That's that's what worked for me. You know? And Well and it makes me think because this is such great advice. It's such practical advice.
But it might be different in the sense that when as we look at MSLs, some MSLs are looking to perform well, and maybe they're a career MSL. And then some MSLs obviously wanna perform well because they wanna get promoted. So what's the difference? What advice would you have for somebody that's trying to position themselves for promotion? Okay. Well, here's here's some other key factors. Now keeping in mind, never mind degrees.
Mhmm. Let's just talk about experience because we have an eclectic group of individuals. Some have PhDs, they have PharmDs, some have MDs, Some have masters like me. What's important is, as I said, if you can do a fair appraisal of yourself, your your presentation skills need improvement. Mhmm. Toastmasters, there's different programs within the company, then there's other programs I know I'm gonna along this up, which is Toastmasters as an example. Dale Carnegie is another one.
Mhmm. How to get to the point, how to have persuasive dialogue. There are a lot of different things that MSL can achieve to improve their performance or whatever their goals may be.
Their path is to continue to be the best MSL, and even still, there are a lot of key areas for growth, and that's where it comes in of their networking, doing a rotation, asking you to do a rotation in marketing, a rotation and and interface with the CRA, the Clinical Research Associates grouping or wellness group or there's so many different other avenues that they should be volunteering to champion, coordinate, and organize Got you. For programs.
We used to do I know that I don't do that any longer, but we used to set up the old model of MSL Receptorships for fellows and residents. Okay? That's been taken away due to legal issues. We can't do that any longer. But that was another avenue of getting yourself known. So we're talking about building your self esteem and being your visibility and your sphere of influence within the company. Yeah. Those are the key factors. Yeah. No. I got you. And, yeah.
And and, you know, the question comes up a lot from, some of the folks that listen to this podcast on tips and advice on how to transition into industry and break into the MSO role. So someone that's that has, you know, had such a long standing career and has seen things from so many different angles, what would you say to those folks that are, like, that are trying to even break in? Well, first of all, you have to think back to their alumnus from x y z pharmacy school. Mhmm. And I know myself.
I'm very active as an alum, and you can find out through your pharmacy school who's working where and what's their role. That's what happened right there. You know? In in the East Coast, we have Saint John's, we have LIU, we have Rutgers, we have Temple. We have so many great pharmacy schools. So if you're alumnus with some of those schools or the Midwest, the Southeast, wherever it is, that's one avenue.
The other avenue is touching base with those teaching academic centers, seeing the Pharm d, individual in pharmacy who's a drug information pharmacist and pharmacy at the hospital. Mhmm. And they are always welcome to give you a great depth and breadth as to who's hiring, what's going on in the industry. They have a few MSLs that go on them. That's one avenue. Maybe job shadow, if you have some contacts. Hopefully, you should be on LinkedIn.
Yep. You should be, following the different, communities of MSL from medical science liaison society, MSL World, MSL Future. Tom, you're a great resource. Okay? Thank you, sir. That's right. You're a great resource. They can tap into me. In other words, there's quite a few people on LinkedIn who actually are have contacts, can point you in the right direction. There's some great books out recently that you can, do research on and find those.
Yeah. Bottom line is you have to really do your homework, but most importantly most importantly, you have to prepare for that behavioral interview process. Right. Right. The final interview process, your public speaking skills, preparing your PowerPoint slide presentation, or preparing yourself on Zoom so you'll have that informal first meeting. Yep. So those are some lay work before you knock on the door. And then as I said earlier, what's your passion? Is it CV? Is it CNS? Is it cancer?
Is it pulmonology, ophthalmology? What's your passion? And then go after that there. Then just settle for the first company that knocks on your door. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, just getting back, I mean, I I I totally agree with what you're saying. Obviously, the first thing for some of these aspiring MSLs is networking Yeah. Or anyone. I mean, obviously, the the importance and the value of networking always comes up in this podcast. Cannot talk I just I really I can't talk about it enough.
And I mean and when I mean networking, networking with the MSLs that have 5 years or more. People just have 1 or 2 years. They're still in that growing stage. I'm talking about someone who's a little bit more mature that can really advise you. Like, I had advisors Mhmm. That I had in my advisory board. People can really point you in the right direction, and I think that'd be key. The other key factors that you have in front of you, reading the different journals.
There's different journals in our industry. As you know, the executive pharmaceutical journal is one in particular. There's a lot of, the CRA representatives have journals. There's different journals, and they talk about opportunities. Gilead, that's on a web page. Gilead Pharmaceutical site is another. There's so many different avenues, but the bottom line is you have to come out of your zone and really network network network. Yeah. For sure.
You know, I just I love I love the stuff that you shared earlier as we were talking about the the stability of your career, the length of your career, because as an executive search specialist, as an MSO recruiter, I I can't tell you how many times I look at resumes and and people jump around a lot. And sometimes it's not their fault. Sometimes they may have been a part of acquisition, layoff. But what what final advice would you give to help people create more of a stable career?
For more of a stable career, you have to really significantly differentiate yourself. I'm not here to boast or brag, but I'll say that there are quite a few things I integrate was able to integrate in once I got it approved for my manager first. That that's the other thing. Having an understanding about culture remember, I came from a Swiss company and an American company. Both companies function differently. There's a time to speak up.
There's a time to be low key, and there's a time to keep quiet. Mhmm. What I just said there is crucial, but they're looking for people, not just talkers. They're talking for substance. Yeah. Pertinent substance. So as an example, to differentiate myself, due to the fact that my territory was the northeast, and I had New York, I had New Jersey, and Philly, I decided to why not see if I can get approval to do a plant tour.
And what I mean by a plant tour, have a tour in reference to seeing how this would be set up for pharmacists, future pharmacists, who are in their 5th 6th year to come into the corporation for the day, and they interface with research. They interface with seeing quality control, seeing our campus, direct it from the MSL program, have someone from train discussing how we are trained. And then, also, I sent an invite to the CEO. He say he he welcomed that opportunity. CEO got involved.
That was huge. And I did that every year along with everything else I was doing as far as KOLs, advocates, new competitive intelligence, and all my accounts. So that was something else I did different versus everybody else, and quite frankly, that was a win win. Literally, did I know no increase, no raise, job security. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. That's great. The CEO is involved in a program. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. Norwood, you're the man. I appreciate you.
I appreciate you coming on. Any final words of advice for the MSLs and aspiring MSLs and MSL leaders out there? Last key thing is this. You have a great opportunity to network, tie the dots together, and if I was you and and this is what I share with those who I'm helping to train to some degree. Really take ownership as to what you're doing. Take pride in what you're doing. Have a passion. Be a resource, and, most importantly, enjoy what you're doing. This this this is a great opportunity.
A lot of people don't receive this role. It is a very difficult task to be a MSL to receive the opportunity. So when you do have it, don't just check the boxes and do the media what needs to be accomplished. Go beyond. Yeah. Go beyond. Be be assertive. Be be a team player. I'm telling you, it's a it's a great career path. That's why I'm still involved. Yeah. I've I've retired now for past, 8 or 9 years.
I guess, still, I'm involved in my consulting to help other people, be involved in that aspect, and then I do health ministry, other things I'm doing in health. So bottom line is don't waste your opportunity that's in front of you. Yep. Well, thank you again, my friend. I always love talking to you, and I appreciate, you know, everything that you're about. And and I I'm sure all these all the folks that are listening too as well. You're the man.
And if those other individuals have time, feel free to hit me up, and I'd be more than happy to share some other points, finer points for those who, aspiring to get into the program. You're a good man, sir. Thank you for your time, Tom. Good seeing you again today. Thank you. Good seeing you. Bye again. My friend. Thank you.
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