Hey guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Rachel Kochenour. She is vice president global medical affairs at Trevir Therapeutics. And we talk about career currency, the key to your success as an MSL. I know you guys are gonna love this conversation, and I have a big announcement that I wanna make. It's time to mark your calendars for Mass West. As always, in sunny San Diego, California this year, it's September 25th 26th.
So the Fierce Life Sciences Medical Affairs Strategic Summit West is coming. Mass East was amazing guys. For those of you that attended, you know, that we co promoted it on this podcast. So this year for Mass West, attendance is free for for medical affairs professionals. Visit my LinkedIn, check out the details. There will be a registration link so that you can sign up and register. Definitely get ahead of this. It's gonna be an awesome event. I can't wait to see you guys there.
Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Rachel. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? I'm great. How are you doing, Tom? Awesome. I'm really excited. And guys, just so you know, this is another one of those episodes that we've been planning for a little while. Took a little bit to get going. Love, love, love this topic could be one of my favorites. Don't want to give anything away. No pressure. No pressure. No pressure.
No. No, this is going to be great. And, but before we get started, Rachel, why don't you do a quick introduction and tell everybody who you are and where you're from and that sort of thing? Alright. Well, before I do that, I just wanna congratulate you, Tom, on your recently published book. I hear it's doing really well, so kudos on that. Y'all need to go check it out. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Yeah. But hi, everybody.
I am Rachel Kochenour, and I'm really thrilled to be here today on this podcast with Tom. I have, been in the industry now for over 20 years and started as a MSL. Through the years, I've had opportunities that have allowed me to learn about other parts of the organization and has led me to my current role at Travir Therapeutics, where I am the vice president that heads up our global medical affairs organization.
And for those of you who may not be familiar with Travere, we are a small biotech company, and our global medical affairs team consists of around 40 to 50 individuals. So we are going to talk guys about career currency and the key to success. So I'm going to just really cut right to the chase. What do we what are we talking about when we say career currency?
So for for me, Tom, when I think about my career currency, I think about all of the people that have helped me to get to where I am in my, you know, in my professional, you know, career, and that's really due to a lot of deliberate and nurturing of my network. Mhmm. You know, your network is really and the relationships that you make along the way are really part of, you know, what we're pointing today as career currency. I love it.
And I don't think we've we've done a lot of episodes on networking, but this, I think, focusing on the relationships and how important it is to develop relationships, I think is really going to be special and a little different from what we may like as far as a focus that we've had in the past on this show. We've talked kind of talked about it, but this is going to be dedicated just to that piece.
So let's talk about, why, why do you think it's so important for MSLs and really any career professional to focus on those in that internal network? Yeah. I think when we think about networking, a lot of people do think about networking outside of their organization. And what we're talking about today is what we do inside of our organization.
And I think when you're an MSL and you're out in the field and you're doing a lot of great work and you know from yourself and maybe your direct line manager the great impact and outcomes of the activity that you're doing in the scientific exchange, that is not always fully seen by others within the organization.
And so that's why it's really important to to build some of these other relationships for for your own benefit to so they understand the value that you're bringing and also for your your team in general. Yeah. And I, and I guess that's why we're calling it currency. You know, because it is when you think currency, you think money, right? You think, but what relates, you know, how can you use that term to relate to other things?
I think that you can cash in on your relationships at some point, but you have to build them first. You have to be aware of the importance of it. You have to work at it and build it before you can cash in on it, because then it doesn't even then you don't have the currency. There's nothing to cash in on unless you build it. Does that make sense, Mike? No. I I I think it makes sense.
And for me, I'm, examples always help, and I'd love to share an example of where I had built a relationship that turned into a little bit of career currency and allowed me people often ask, how did you get from being a field based MSL to, one of my roles that I had in the organization? I moved into market access and doing professional association management. And it was really based on a relationship that I had developed with someone at the organization.
I would see them a lot of meetings, and I would make it you know, I would make an effort to be able to spend some time with that individual, get to know them. Everyone loves to share what they do and what their role is and maybe how they got there. And so I made a lot of effort because I was curious. You have to be curious.
And we ended up developing relationship, and I didn't know at the time it wasn't part of my 5 year plan to leave, you know, the MSL organization and move into a commercial function actually for a short period of my career. And when I was at a large company, it merged with another company, and that individual remembered me. And they reached out and said, I'm building a new team, and I want to bring in individuals from different functions across the organization.
And I thought you might be interested and you might be someone that could bring in the medical affairs perspective. So, of course, it was very flattering, but had I not made those efforts previously and built up that relationship and that career currency, I don't they would have never reached out to me nor would I've known about the opportunity. I love it. That's such a great story. It's such a great example of this at work.
And I will say and I don't mean to throw in a shameless plug for my book, but I talk about this a lot in my book, how important it is to develop these strong networks because the relationships are going to lead to future opportunities where you have hiring managers that say, oh, yeah. You know what? I'm gonna call Rachel because she's perfect for this position. But if you don't build the relationship, no one's calling you. And that's that's the perfect, perfect kind of tie in.
But so I wanna talk to you about what happens when you don't do this or more so, you had you had mentioned to me that you were at a meeting recently and you said that you were really surprised by the lack of initiative and the, the, the fact that so many people just failed at taking advantage of an opportunity at this meeting to develop and nurture and create some internal relationships. So can you talk about that a little bit? Sure. And I don't wanna say initiative.
That lack of initiative sounds like a really negative connotation. But, yes, we had a a company meeting, and I I think what happens is sometimes people maybe they're shy or maybe it is, you know, not in their personality. They feel like, oh, this person doesn't want to know about me. But after leaving that meeting, I did share that with you, Tom, that I was like, wow.
You know, I would have thought maybe more more people in the, you know, in our medical affairs organization may have come up and wanted to share some of their good work with me and maybe even some of their career, you know, aspirations. And, I had very few people that that actually did that, that that sought me out and and wanted to share some of that information. And, you know, on the flip side of the coin, I probably could look in the mirror at myself. I'm a big believer.
Don't always point my finger at others. I it made me realize too at future meetings, I'm gonna do a little better job and seek some of these people out that I've at least heard through the grapevine that they're interested in other opportunities. But you won't always find leaders who have the time or the capacity to do that.
So I I really, you know, encourage, those of you who may be listening to this to think about, you know, how you can if you are, you know, nervous, how you can overcome that or who you can speak with to help you get to other individuals in the company. Yeah. And I I mean, I agree with you. I think I think a lot of people just don't they might feel that it's not their plate. They're it's out of place and that they're overstepping their bounds.
Yeah. And I and I think that the if you take the right approach and it is, and you and you have a certain level of, of respect and emotional intelligence and, and awareness of that, of that person's time, there's a time and a place. And there's a way to do this where you're not overstepping your bounds. You're not interrupting anything.
You're not, if there's an opportunity where you can put yourself in the right place, in the right instance where you get to eat, say hello, introduce yourself, take the initiative, then you should. But by all means, you do have to be careful with this, but I agree with you. I think that. Chancing not chance encounters, but when you have these opportunities and these chances to make an impact or have it develop a new relationship, you should at least try is what I'm thinking.
A 100% agree with you, particularly if you have ambition and want growth opportunities. Because lots of the times when decisions are being made about who could be put on a high profile project or who will you know, even when at the end of the year when you're talking about, performance reviews, lots of times, you're not in the room when those discussions about you are happening. So you need to have champions. I sometimes say, build your own board of directors.
And oftentimes, it's people that are, you know, 2 levels above you that are maybe making decisions about you without all of the information. And, you know, at least my experience in the way I I do that, you're certainly not sitting in there to intentionally not give someone an opportunity. But if you're not aware of their great work and their career aspirations, you can't help advocate for them. I love that.
And, you know, it's funny you use that word because we were talking just right before this, and and you were saying you you had a conversation with a colleague who was, like, a, you know, chief people officer or something like that, and mentioned how important it is to be your own advocate. Mhmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so is that would you say that that's the one of the keys to developing this career currency?
Yeah. You know, I think one way that you can do it, and I was as I shared in preparing for this podcast, I did talk to, you know, some of, of my friends and colleagues. And one example that I thought was really good that, that one of my colleagues shared was, you know, setting up small little coffee chats. If you're not you know, we live in a very remote and hybrid work environment now.
You know, set up 15, 20 minute coffee chats with individuals that are, like, two levels above you and to say, you know, hey. I'd love to learn more about you and your role, and you can start it off more rather than showing up to share everything about yourself. Learn more about them. Ask them some questions. Everyone loves to share how they got to where they are in their career and to share more about what they do on a day to day basis.
And I can promise you that through that conversation, they're gonna wanna know more about you too, or at least most people will do that. One watch out, though, if you're gonna, you know, reach out to people that maybe are a couple levels above you in the organization, make sure your direct line leader or manager is aware. You don't want them to get the misperception that you're doing that to talk about them, because you're not going there to talk about them.
You're going there to talk about yourself. So they also understand, you know, that you're trying to build your relationships and, you know, your own network and maybe even you wanna say your own your own board. Yeah, I love that advice. I think that's amazing.
I think that, it I think that that that pays dividends, because you're you're now positioning yourself, which leads me kind of to the next thought of, so you develop this, not urgency, but you develop this habit of, of working on your internal relationships and you build an internal network. Would you say that this then would ensure or at least help with your next promotion? Absolutely. I don't think it will ensure it. You know?
But I do think it certainly won't hurt you, and it certainly would would help a lot. Because I think in order to get, promotions, particularly if you want to do a different type of function within your organization, let's say you're in the field and you would love to become a trainer, There are probably projects along the way that would set you up for that next opportunity.
And if people aren't aware that that is your career aspiration, you're not gonna be, you know, put on a project to help lead a training, which will be a nice pathway. That's just, you know, that's just an an example for that. And, you know, raise your hand too because people will notice that also. You know? Start start, you know, just going above and beyond if that's your aspiration to get promoted. I know that's something I had done in an organization previously.
I headed up a a field medical team, and I saw a need. And so I went to our our head of of global medical and shared that I had identified this need. I would love to trade take on that particular project. And if they felt, you know, was it was there still a need in the organization? And they welcomed it, and that helped lead me to my next promotion. That's a perfect example of this self advocacy topic that we're talking about. You know, raise it.
Raising your hand and taking the initiative is one of the greatest forms of self advocacy. Absolutely. And, and being your own champion and being able to communicate what it is that you're looking to do is so important because how else are people gonna know? Not everybody wants, right? Not everybody wants to sit in the big chair. Not everybody wants to become a people manager.
Not everybody wants to get into the net, but the only way you know is if you speak up or or the only way they'll know is if you speak up. Yeah. I tell people all the time, I'm not a mind reader. You know? I I don't. There's no way I can know what everyone in my organization, what their career aspirations are. And while they put together IDPs, you know, their own development plans, they also then need to share it with with people beyond their direct line manager. Mhmm. Mhmm. Alright.
So let's hypothetical. Let's say you an internal colleague leaves the organization. Mhmm. Is this an opportunity for you? And if so, how? Well, I see it as an opportunity in 2 in 2 ways. Let's say that is someone you had built a relationship with, and they knew that maybe that was a role their role was a role that you are interested in, as they're leaving the organization, they certainly can set it up a path for it to potentially be your, you know, opportunity for you.
So while you may be sad to see someone who has been an advocate for you, that you know, developing that relationship and, you know, developing them as an advocate for you could help set that path up. And secondly, when they leave the organization and they know more about you and depending on what organization they're going to, they may think about you at the new organization where maybe there's another role there for you. So it's 2 ways.
It can help you within your organization, and it's not that I'm advocating everyone needs to leave their organization to get, you know, a promotion or a growth opportunity, but sometimes you have to do that. You know, sometimes your current organization may not afford that for you. So And I I that's that's kinda why I asked that question because I feel like building a strong internal network is going to spider off and grow into other things because nobody stays at the same place forever.
No. So as people leave and go to other organizations, I think it's important to keep in touch with those people and not lose touch. I think there's kind of the lesson in continue to nurture those relationships, not just internal, but external as well, because those are the folks that down the road, they might be calling you saying, Hey, you know what? I've been at this place for 2 years or 3 years or whatever. This opportunity came up, and I thought of you.
Yeah. It's it's happened to me a couple of times in my in my career journey. Yeah. You know? I've been fortunate, you know, that that that's worked out for me, and and it's, afforded me some really amazing opportunities. So when you think about this idea of building up this this career currency and you have these relationships and your network starts to get really strong, some of the things we're talking about is like, hey. This really can pay off.
So what other how else might this pay dividends for someone that's really good at this? Well, I think another way that it could potentially pay dividends, you know, for someone is if they are going for a new opportunity and they've built these relationships, you never know, you know, you never know exactly where others will land and could end up being an unsolicited recommendation for them for a position. That's you know, also, I've had that happen in my, you know, career journey.
I didn't realize someone that I'd met previously was at the organization I was applying for. And, Tommy, you can tell me how, in your book, probably, I should have done a little better research on that company to see if I had advocates there. But before I even had that opportunity, that individual had reached out to the hiring manager and was able to vouch for me. I love it. That's perfect example. That's just that's a perfect example. This this is kind of the gift that keeps on giving.
Once you develop it, it kinda continues to grow in your favor. Yeah. So I have a question for you. Yeah. Bring it on. I love listen. I love turning the turning the tables. I love it. Bring it on. Well, you know, I'm I mentioned the non solicited recommendation, But, also, from a recruiter's perspective, what else should, you know, MSLs and others that are looking for new opportunities, what can they do, to help them be successful in that?
So, you know, it's so funny that you should ask me this because I just told this story this morning. So I'm gonna tell you a story. I was gonna take a different angle. I'm gonna tell you a story. Okay. Good. This is a true story. Henry Ford, Ford Motor Company. Interviewed 2 candidates for a position. They both went to the same university. They both had the same GPA and they were both basically geniuses. And he took them both out to dinner. And after the dinner, they walked out.
He looked at the one candidate and he said, congratulations, you're hired. He looked at the other candidate and he said, thank you for a lovely dinner. We will not be proceeding further. So as he went to walk away, the candidate that was rejected said, well, Mr. Ford, can I ask you a question? You know, what was it, that I lacked? You know, we had a whole dinner, and we never talked about engineering. We never talked about cars.
We didn't talk about, really, anything that had to do with with the job. So Henry Ford said, well, it was 2 things. Number 1, the person that won the job, he tried his steak first, and then he put salt on it. You put salt on your steak, and then you tried it. He said, I like people that are gonna try things and test things before they decide to make changes. And number 2, he was very polite the entire time with the wait staff. You were only polite to me and you ignored the wait staff.
And I hire people first and foremost on how they treat others and what the what their recognition of the human element is more than anything else. So I look at that story as it's it's so important to pay attention to the the other person and think about how do you make the other person feel? And this is a lesson, not just in business, not just in interviewing, not just in developing internal relationships. It's anything in life.
We always make someone else feel something, and that's how they're going to remember you. So if you can do that in your professional life, you'll develop tremendous relationships and you'll and you'll be able to develop this career currency. I I I totally resonate with that. You made me think about something I do before every meeting I go to or any talk I have. I I start off with, how do I want people to leave the room feeling? What do I want them to feel?
They will not remember what you say or what you did, but they're gonna remember how you made them feel. And I think that's important as you are building your career currency. And and earlier, I made the comment, you know, when you ask if it's someone you don't know and maybe you're a little nervous and don't wanna act like or feel like you might be bragging about yourself, one way you can do it is make that person feel important.
You know, make them feel like you're genuinely interested in them, asking and you do that by asking questions about that individual. You know? And they will, I I think, you know, again, turn the tables on you and probably ask more about about you, but that you know? And show up if you do do that. Another thing is come with questions.
When I have had people set up time with me and we're both looking at each other, If you've asked to have a meeting with me, you know, come with some questions you wanna ask. Don't don't put the don't put the onus and the work on the the other individual you're trying to initially, you know, engage and build this relationship. You know, so Organic. It's so funny because the the prior episode, we talk about this, and it's it's an episode on the secret weapon for MSLs.
And I don't I kinda don't wanna give it away, but I'll give it away. It's about curiosity and asking the right questions. It's a whole episode about this, and it's so important to ask powerful questions to the other person, because what do people like to talk about the most themselves? Yes. And if you can get good at that, whether it's a key opinion leader or it's a partner or spouse, a child, whatever it might be, it shows that you care.
And, and it shows that you want, you see them and you you want to learn about them. It's just I think it's just so important. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And, you know, when people are busy, you know, it just helps to to make it easier to ease into a discussion or conversation. Yeah. For sure. So what about I always like to flip the script in the sense that, like, what would be the down is there are there any, like, words of caution, or is there a downside to to doing this? Downside?
You know, I can't think of a lot. I I think the downside would be that you the only thing I can think of for caution is you do need a high you know, you want some self awareness. You know, self awareness that if you are trying to get time with someone else and they're busy and you can, you know, sense it from them when they've run out of time versus trying to to keep them on, that would be just more of a word of of caution.
Mhmm. And then, also, my other thing is while you may be curious, make sure people understand why you are reaching out to them because I had actually I'll share one last anecdote. I had an MSL once that was interested in learning about a role in medical operations, and there was a position posted. She had an interest in it, but it had never been shared with others that that was her interest.
And it was perceived that she was just trying to get out of her MSO role versus and so it was a real big learning for her and actually for me too because I thought, what could I have done differently to make sure the hiring manager didn't take it as she wasn't happy in her current role? She really wanted to learn a little bit more about about the opportunity. So I think that's clear clear clarity. And those are just maybe watch out versus, you know, hard, you know, nose on things Yeah.
Well but I think that's good advice. I think I think you do have to be careful of not overstepping your bounds. I mean, we talked about that a little bit before. Respecting other people's times, not, you know, not making assumptions, and and not going over your head. Sometimes I think if you reach and and maybe, overstep the bounds of a relationship as it becomes, as it relates to the hierarchy of, you know, within the organization, we have a whole episode on skip level meetings.
That's different because that's, that's a part of like the process, but, you know, just, I think it's important to just be careful about how you, you, how you go about, you know, these, you know, developing these relationships. And I kind of feel like, you know, if you stick to that golden rule of treat others the way you want to be treated, and, and just really be nice to everybody. And, you know, I think it just comes back.
There's this reciprocity reciprocity it's it's, I think it's easier said than done. No, there's this it's this reciprocity that exists, that when you are kind to others, you receive kindness back. Yeah. I agree. I 100% agree. So let's close this out with what what would be the last piece of advice that you would have for somebody that let's just say there's somebody that's that's really looking to establish themselves in their career. They listen to this whole episode. They're like, yeah.
Got some takeaways, took some notes. Is there any other advice that you would have for that person? You know, I guess my advice, and maybe this has come through, but maybe not as directly as I'm gonna say it now, is don't be afraid to be your own advocate. You know, some people may be in the south, like, I'm from the south, you know, may think that, oh, I'm bragging about myself or no. You know, you have to advocate for yourself. And it's not just in your own career.
It's really in life in general, and I think it's the nuance of how you do it. And like you said, you know, be being aware of others and, being respectful and kind, but it's okay. You should advocate for yourself. No one knows more about your goals and aspirations and even capabilities than you do. And in the process, you said it, Tom, be curious. Learn some things along the way. Learn about other people around you. You you never know.
You could may end up finding one of your, you know, closest, dearest friends, through this process. And have some fun with it. You know, I think that that's like, you know, life is life is only fun when you're doing it with with other people and you create friendships and relationships. And I'll tell you, I, I, I was a rep for 10 years before in my prior life. I still keep it. That was like 30 years ago.
I still keep in touch with some of the people that I was friends with and that were in my internal network. And, you know, I know their kids, I've helped their kids and vice versa. So it's like, these are lifelong relationships. It's not just this isn't really just a work thing. This is a life thing. So I think that that's how important this career currency discussion and relationship building thing is. Yes. Agree.
I've met some of my closest friends through this this process of, you know, just getting to know each other and trying to build these internal relationships. Awesome. And I'm gonna put an invitation out, guys. If you have not connected with me on LinkedIn, or you're looking for some help on LinkedIn, because that's another thing that I think a lot of people don't spend enough time doing is working at the networking game. It's in my book. But, I do think that that's another piece of this.
That's really super simple is that we have tools now that make this whole thing so much easier than it used to be when there was no LinkedIn and there was no, you know, texting in the digital age. Wasn't what it is now, or there was no digital age. So I would say take advantage of the tools that are out there too. That kind of just jumped into my head. So, and follow me on LinkedIn or connect with me if you haven't already. Thank you, Tom. This was fun. Guys, how awesome was Rachel?
What did I tell like, I knew this was gonna be good. This was so amazing. Rachel, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Okay. Guys, you guys are amazing. I can't thank you enough for all your support. If you got value out of this, please share it with others. Thank you for making this the fastest growing show in the pharmaceutical industry. Love you all, and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
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