Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guests today are Maria Abunto. She's a MSO regional lead at Exact Sciences, and Nabhan Islam, who's a medical science liaison with Syneos Health on behalf of VBI Vaccines. And we discussed business acumen, the other MSL currency. Awesome conversation.
Keep in mind that the opinions of both Namhan and Maria are their own and not the opinions of either VBI Vaccine, Syneos Health, or Exact Sciences needed to get that out of the way because we didn't do that during the podcast. And don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn and check us out on MSL Talk Live, which is the first Tuesday of every month at 1:30 PM EST, and that's on LinkedIn. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical.
Hey, guys. Thanks for joining me today. I am excited. So welcome to both of you. How we doing today? Doing great. Tom, nice to see you again. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Yep. Doing fantastic. Thanks for the opportunity, Tom. Really appreciate it. So Maria's been here before. It was a while ago. So, this is the second in probably within probably about a year ago. And, Navhan, you and I have been talking about doing this.
So we're doing this in tandem based on, just so you guys know, a conversation that we had at the MSL Society Conference. And, you know, it's funny, there's a lot of topics that get thrown out. We were talking about doing a bunch of different things. Somehow we stuck with this business acumen idea. I think it's a good one. But I will say before we get into it, this 100% came from these 2 geniuses.
So I know Naman, and Maria, you guys both, like, literally teamed up and put together some amazing content that I can't wait to talk about. So, before we do that, why don't we do introductions? Maria, why don't you go first? Yeah. Okay. Well, good afternoon, everyone. I'm Maria Buntow, the regional medical science liaison leader at Exact Sciences for screening products. So I originally started as an MSL in August of 2020. I've been here just over 2 years.
So, happy to be here, Tom. Thanks for having me. Alright. And, Navan, you're next. So, hi. Good morning, everyone. I'm on the, Pacific Coast. So my name is Navan Islam. I am the medical science liaison at Syneos Health on behalf of BBI Vaccines. I'm based in Vancouver. I've been at MSL for about, two and a half years. My first year was with, another company, and I've been in my current role for about a year and a half. Awesome. Alright. Well, we are I'm excited to get going and with this.
I'm gonna jump right into it. And and I guess let's start with like, how did you guys come up with this concept of, hey, business acumen is really important in medical affairs. Let's talk about that. So what what drove you guys to come up with this this concept? I'll let Mohan go first. Go ahead. And I think, you know, he's he's really the more of the brains of all of this.
So So, normally, when you you join a company, you you're provided with a list of KOLs in your territory, a list of conferences you're expected to cover, a list of medical events that, you need to have in your territory, and kind of all of the infrastructure, to have those activities. So, you know, like a travel and expense policy, a meal policy, food and beverage policy, you know, fair market value, all that fun stuff. So in my current role, I basically got handed a blank slate.
Basically, I was told this is your territory, handle it. So it was up to me to actually prospect my KOLs. It was up to me to prospect the conferences. I had to figure out which conferences I wanted to attend, which ones we wanted to sponsor, which ones we wanted to have a a medical presence. I had to, or I'm currently figuring out which educational events to have and with whom and in what cities, and I'm helping to address some of the deficiencies that we have, with our with our infrastructure.
So, for example, MSLs obviously have a travel and expense policy, but, you know, if you have a KOL as part of our speakers bureau, what is their travel and expense policy? So I found that business acumen is just so important to my day to day activities as an MSL. And, you know, I think Maria has examples of her own. But when we were talking about it, we just sort of realized it wasn't something that was taught to us by our managers or by leadership.
It was just something that grew organically as we gained experience over time. So, obviously, you can go to business school and spend your entire degree learning about business acumen. So we just wanted to start the conversation and get MSL's thinking about the topic. Yeah. Awesome. What about you, Maria? Yeah. And I agree.
You know, as for me, even early on in my MSL career, I think as a MSL prior to becoming a leader, it was really important to understand the foundation of, business and the strategies. I mean, it's all about your accounts and how to manage them, also leveraging your relationships with, institutions or the providers or KOLs, or the health systems themselves and how they conduct business.
So I started to realize that that we have to align ourselves not only with our business priorities, but also the needs of our customers. So if we have to look at them as customers, it's all about implementing our business strategy and then collaborating, right, internally and externally. So what were those words like such as, you know, an an acumen. Like, think about initiatives. You know, we we really don't call them doctors. We call them providers, health care providers.
You know, we're looking at not just, key opinion leaders, but we're looking at, the providers as, for instance, not just primary care providers or, certain specialties, but we're also now expanding our reach and looking at advanced practice providers. And and so knowing that that's where we're going to capture the greatest market and have the returners the largest return of investment, really have to think of that. And so that is really, like, all about business. Right?
Looking at the key accounts and, of the company, but also which ones would would really bring in the, greatest impact for us as a business and how to drive that. So understanding that really is, you know, is is really key to be successful successful MSL and and leader. And when I, you know, when I think of business acumen, it's such a it can be such a broad term. Yeah. So define what you guys see as business acumen. Yeah. So there are a lot of definitions out there.
I'm a big fan of the KISS principle. So very simply, business acumen is the ability to understand how your business, in this case, a biopharmaceutical company, operates and generates revenue and, to proactively anticipate, navigate, and leverage trends that affect your company. Yeah. And I I have to agree with with Napan definitely. Like, my company is a bio, biotech company.
So we also have to understand, that their their lingos and their language and how they operate can be a little bit different than pharma. But at the end of the day, it's all about selling the products. And as MSLs, we're selling the science. Right?
And so I think that that knowing that as well as, you know, the the the money that is being spent, the funds in r and d or marketing, especially, and in developing our, innovative products, and knowing that, really, ultimately, it is to impact patients and their lives. So I think we have to really think about what is the right, talking points or even the conversations that we need to have.
And when we are working with other companies or other, providers knowing, you know, how they how can we communicate using the right lingo? So business acumen is really understanding the language of how to communicate with them. Yeah. Because some of this kind of sounds commercial a little bit. Right? Yeah. We're medical affairs. Is there a fine line here or am I just making that up? So I think, you know, we we talk about a lot, you know, demonstrating our value to the company. Right?
I think everyone implicitly understands the need for for commercial. You know, they go out into the field, they sell product, they generate revenue. So that's, you know, that I think people inherently understand that. It's a little hard to make that argument for for medical. We go into the field and we talk to KOLs, we attend conferences, we read papers, we report insights, but we don't directly generate revenue. We we actually consume it.
So, if we're able to frame our interactions and our activities within the overall business strategy and the company's goals, that's basically how we bring, you know, the best value to the table, and we do that by exercising good business acumen. Yeah. And I'd I'd have to agree with Navhan. It's just not just about, the jargon or the lingo. I really think it's also a mindset.
It's really about identifying those opportunities and solving the solutions or challenges that the company has as a business partner is how do we partner best with them? What do they need from us? Right? Really identifying those opportunities for growth and business development, but also gathering insights.
Because insights are currency to the business, at least for, you know, for medical affairs and, you know, for a company that's really growing, is really staying ahead of that competition by knowing what are those insights, what are those competitive intels, right, that we can learn from them. Yep. And so and, you guys are kind of filling gaps in for me because I just was under the impression when I hear business acumen, to me, that just means kinda language and lingo.
Like, what's the language of medical affairs? What's the lingo in medical affairs? And you guys touched on that a bit. But correct me if I if I'm wrong. That's just a piece of this. Right? Yep. Yeah. You're right, Tom. I think, you know, if you're you know, this document is really about working with your your cross functional partners to essentially identify and solve challenges. So it's only natural that you understand their terminology.
So let's say you're collaborating with sales, you need to understand what what what words and lingo and acronyms are important to sales, so you understand what they're talking about. And when you when you have conversations with them, you you talk in terms that are that are meaningful to them. And I think the same thing goes for for r and d, for, you know, government and regulatory affairs, for marketing. Any other department at your company, you need to be, you know, aware that terminology.
So that definitely is a is a part of it. Yes. And I I'd have to say, you know, practicing good business acumen is is collaborating, like Napan said, but it's also setting goals, understanding the marketplace. I think this is where the cross functional partners come in.
Marketing, commercial, you know, regulatory, all of that coming in and and aligning ourselves with, with these partners so that when we bring the other partners externally to the table, then we can have a really good solid conversation as to how to drive the businesses and make it a win win. Got you. Yep. So now to add to that, I'd love to hear from you guys, in your current roles, how do you demonstrate business acumen? What are some examples? Go ahead, Maria.
Okay. I was gonna ask you to go first, but yeah. Thanks, Navhan. So it's really for for my an example for me on a very high level is bringing partners in, for collaboration. So for instance, from an academic level, an institution that wants to be able to have a partnership with industry. It's very restrictive and and a lot of, you know, red tape. But if there is a liaison who can bring the 2 together, right, who are willing to meet at the table identifying the gaps, for instance, in education.
So that's a really great opportunity to educate, fellows, residents, students, providers, and and discussing the needs of what what they want. Right? Whether it's education or is it some sort of, opportunities for grants, scholarships, and and just helping them find solutions to, address their needs. Right? For instance, not only academic institutions, but other businesses that are looking to, expand, their reach in colorectal cancer screening, for instance.
Are there other products that we can help them with? And not just colorectal cancer screening, but cancer screening in general. And so it's not just education, but what are the other things that we can offer them in our pipeline, right, for a particular disease state? And it's ultimately the goal is patient care and making an impact on their health outcomes. Got you. What about you, Navan? Yeah. I've got a couple examples.
One that comes to mind was, you know, when when I started working on territory, you know, when our business strategy was sort of explained to us, it was very clear, you know, we are going to be launching in countries, you know, a, b, and c. And as an MSO for country a, I've been talking to KOLs in country a. I've been attending conferences in in country a. But we know that, you know, KOLs and conferences aren't held in these isolated bubbles.
There's always like international presence and international participation. So, just through the course of the last year and a half, I found that, a lot of KOLs from from other markets, we'll call them, you know, d, e, and f, have been pointing out there's actually a very high disease burden, in in their respective countries and that our products, really might be able to help their meet, you know, their patient need.
So, you know, the company didn't send me to do conferences to gain those sort of, you know, prospective, you know, international markets. But, you know, that's that's an opportunity for for business development. And actually ties in really nicely to some of the insights that I learned earlier this year.
And, so, you know, so I was able to identify, look, you know, we're still gonna go ahead with obviously our plan to launch in countries a, b, and c. But after that's done, you know, we need to think about expanding and why not consider d, e, and f? I've got KOLs that have pointed out multiple times that there's a high, unmet need in those countries and a high disease burden. So our product would would fit perfectly in those countries. Right?
Another example would be, originally, we, you know, we were, you know, looking at, which health care providers we wanted to engage kind of on our in our kind of first wave of outreaches, if you will. And, we actually found out there was another group of allied health care providers that we haven't been considering. And we started talking to them and went to a couple of their conferences and it turns out they're actually going to be, really important, for for our products.
So, for our launch, essentially next year, we are going to be including them essentially on equal footing with with, you know, kind of like the the doctors that we traditionally do. And that wasn't part of our original plan, but based on the insights that we gather, based on, the feedback that we've gotten, It's going to be really important for us.
So just to be able to identify that huge market segment and and to include them from the get go, with regard to planning and and development and educational activities moving forward. Yeah. And if I can add to that too, because, for instance, when we really look at mapping KOLs and conferences, you know, we we tier them. So let's say, for instance, like tier 1 is like the ones the big ones that we need to attend.
But we can't overlook the other smaller conferences in our region, specifically in our, you know, community or in our areas because we want to target us in different specialties as well, depending on your therapeutic area. But, especially, like, for cancer screening, I mean, there's multiple kinds of specialties that you can target. So we can't overlook the other smaller conferences either.
It's all about, you know, strategizing, where we can find the most, providers in one little area if we can. And, usually, they are at conferences. Yeah. So how do how do MSLs develop this? How do MSLs grow their business acumen? Is it trained? Is it is it you know, how do they how do they build this muscle? Yeah. So I'll speak for MSLs. I think there are some really easy things that MSLs can do, from from day 1 to improve their their business acumen.
I think the most important thing is you need to pay attention to your own company. So, I think in in most people would agree as an MSL and particularly within medical affairs, you tend to work in silos. So I think you really need to pay attention to your own company. So I would sign up for your company's newsletter, the one that, you know, any member of the public can sign up for. I would read all of your press releases even if they're in departments or in TAs that aren't applicable to you.
And I would tend all the investors calls. Again, these are these are open to the public. And then I would do the same thing for your competitors. And that really helps you to sort of frame, you know, your company's activities within the entire competitive landscape. Second, I'd say that, you know, you should attend as many cross functional, meetings as your schedule and your compliance framework will allow. And you really just wanna listen to their to their needs and priorities.
What is, you know, what is important to them? What metrics are they using? What is driving their activities? And then the third thing you can do is, ask questions about how your company runs. If something strikes you as, like, complex or illogical, don't just take it at face value. Just ask, you know, your cross functional colleagues, like, why do we have to do it this way? Can you explain to me why this is important? You know, what is the significance of this metric?
And, learn really, like, how and why your business operates. And then when you have an understanding of, you know, what your what other, what your colleagues, are are doing and why they're doing it, then you can ask the question, well, how can I help you? How can medical support you? How can we work together? How can we collaborate? And this is how, basically, we we we we demonstrate our value to the company.
Yeah. Absolutely. And I, you know, I can see it from both angles being an MSL and now that I'm a leader. It's really complex. Right? Understanding the health care market, reimbursement, and also, really knowing how, your organization may provide some of these analytics that's, you know, happening in your area, and really better understanding that data and then really applying it, to be really effective.
And I think it's really important to know reimbursement issues, like the product status, what's coming in your pipeline, even our organization, how it's structured in the processes that we that we do. I attend a lot of our account summit meetings, and I I I see the trends there as as, you know, Navhan mentioned. Be really like he said also is listening, but well be well versed in really what's going on with with the company.
You know, supporting and collaborating your colleagues, setting goals, and really developing that deep understanding of the market you work in and how you can effectively support your, your your business. It really is managing your business in your territory as an MSL. So knowing you know, really developing good relationships with account managers, marketing leaders, and and being proactive about it.
I think that that's really a best way to understand the full impact because every company operates differently. Knowing your structure and your the plan the business plan, what is our goals here, and how can you contribute? We also look at it's called the SWOT analysis. So it's success, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Must look at that and each of those buckets.
And how it how are we doing, and what what are we what should we be looking out for, in our territory, and really how to optimally contribute to the teams and its performance. Always align your activities, cross functionally, you know, even with your partners, but aligning your activities to what are our business priorities. And they can change, you know, and be be very flexible as an MSL and learn how to pivot. Because sometimes maybe we're not focusing on that.
Maybe at q one, we did, but q two, now we're focusing on this and how to drive that. Do we need to get more clinical trial sites on board now for this study? So really paying attention to that and then knowing who the critical partners are and to have meetings with them internally before you meet with, these sites externally so that we're all aligned and all on the same page. It's about being organized, but also having a strategy. Yeah. So what about are there any areas of caution?
Any any pitfalls? Or are there mistakes that you see MSLs making as it relates to this topic or anything, really? I mean, what advice do you have for MSLs, and what they might be should be cautious of? Yeah. I'll just say that, obviously, you need to be very cognizant of of the the firewalls, that separate the the departments and and why they're in place. And you don't want to cross any of those lines.
So, you know, you really need to understand the ways of working at your company and know what you can and can't do. And your colleagues, again, you know, need to also understand what they can and can't do. And you wanna make sure that everything you do is is is compliant. Like, that's, obviously, that's gonna come first before before anything. Yeah. Absolutely.
So, you know, if you can contribute to, SOP or ways of working of how MSLs can work cross functionally with, you know, our internal partners on a commercial side. I think that that's that's really important. And to share that too, that we all have a understanding of our, you know, our roles and what we can and can't say or what we can, you know, do together. I think that's really important. And that's always a challenge. Right? You know, you always have to walk that line and and and Yeah.
And hold yourself accountable for making sure that you don't cross the line and wind up getting yourself into any kind of hot water. So what would you say, you know, there's this expression. I actually just wrote this article, and and one of the pieces of it is if you want to be a top performer, act like 1. Act like a top performer. So what do top performers do? What are you seeing high achievers do as it relates to pulling in this business acumen into their territory?
And like, what's the top shelf look like? Well, that's a a really loaded question, I think, because to really Well, you guys are top performers. That's why I'm asking you guys. Anything you say I mean, it could already you could have already said it, but, like, there's gotta be some secret. There's some secret sauce. There's some piece of it that I feel like we still need to get out there. Yeah. So I'll I'll I'll say that, you know, I I think in an earlier podcast, you talked about mindset.
And mindset is basically, like, the way you approach one problem is the way you approach all problems. And I think, you know, if you have the mindset that not only am I gonna, you know, put in a 110% in my day to day job as an MSL, you know, kind of, you know, what I'm, you know, collecting my salary for. But I'm gonna put in a 110% with everything that I do cross functionally.
So, you know, if I'm doing a favor for sales or for marketing, if I'm, you know, stepping out of my comfort zone and doing a little side project for for r and t, I'm still gonna give a 110% there as well. And I think that, you know, that that's appreciated. It's recognized. It only needs some more opportunity and, you know, if you do it well, I, you know, I would argue, you know, that's that's good business acumen.
It's it's really about helping the company to to solve problems that aren't officially within the purview of of medical. And, that that really will will help you to to to be a top performer. Yes. And I I'd have to say my motto has always been to how can you be 1% better every day? And I think that that's so important in that. I try my best not to compare myself to others on the team, but just do the best job I can because my territory is different than others and how I am is different.
So I, you know, I think you I hold myself to high standards and make sure that I am, hitting all the the benchmarks, but at the same time being very authentic in what I do, that I really do care about my work. And if that can show if that can shine, I think, to be as, you know, as as honest as I can with doing the best job I can. I think that, aside from my learning and how Navhan had said, you know, do don't be afraid to do things outside of your comfort zone.
And that will just really improve you as an MSL, but also stretch your goals. Right? And having that growth mindset is key to where, yes, things will be difficult. You will not always have the answers, but that's where you can look on to others to help you, but, to be willing to learn and also be proactive in opportunities that come your way. Don't be afraid to say yes, but also don't be afraid to say no either.
Yeah. I love that we we kinda rounded this off and came back to attitude and mindset and habits because it's so important and and it's such a big part of this, especially as we relate and talk about top performers and high achievers. I love that you guys went there. I love it. I think that's that's amazing. And and you talk about getting 1% better. That's that's straight out of Atomic Habits, if you haven't read that book. Yeah. It's amazing. Check it out.
And just to, I guess, to kind of round off this and finish up the conversation, any final thoughts? I'll give you guys each couple minutes. Any final thoughts that you wanna share with? And it could be on anything, anything that pops into your mind, anything that you want the MSL community to know about. Yeah. I'll just say, you know, we're MSLs.
We're very proud of the fact that, you know, we we disseminate data, the fact that we're fair, the fact that, you know, the fact that we're balanced, you know, that we care about, you know, at the end of the day, improving, you know, patient care and patient outcomes. I would just say, you know, just keep in mind that you also do work for for, a pharmaceutical company. And at the end of the day, that company has to make revenue. Right? Revenue is what, you know, covers overhead.
Revenue is what funds r and d, so we can provide these great treatments and, you know, diagnostics and devices. And revenues what pays your salary as an MSL. So, you know, when you're going about doing, you know, your activities as an MSL, just always have it kind of in the back of your head, you know. How can I make the company better? How can I help the company to perform better? How can I help sales? How can I help marketing? How can I help r and d?
How can I help, you know, government affairs? And, you know, if you have that mindset, like, I'm just always going to, you know, help and offer to collaborate, wherever I can, then, I think that in itself is is business acumen. Right? You're just helping the business as a whole to succeed even though, you know, you're just a cog in the machine.
Yeah. And I'd have to say that, you know, that having our medical background has been very, very important as an MSL because you may have more unique skills or different skills that no one else has on the team.
So if you can add that value and be that person who can contribute your knowledge and skill set, you know, being an MSL for me has been very important in bringing my clinical background as well as my research skills into this role, which has been very important in some of the opportunities that I've been given, and they look to me for that.
In addition to that, I've been able to learn this business acumen, which is different than when I was in my previous role, as an MD. So I think that that's, one thing that I can say that, you know, contributing your unique skills, what's what's unique about you. And adding value is so important, not just to the business, but also to your your internal team, to your MSL team. But then being proud of what you do. Right?
I think that's also important is recognizing that you are doing a good job and that, you are contributing to, you know, the business in itself as a whole. And then, looking at it as well as not just short term goals, but long term as well. You know, if you want to even think about your your professional development, does it make sense to if, you know, we're talking about business acumen here, is, you know, one of the things that I wanna do is is get an MBA, you know, to really understand it.
Right? And so that's another reason for me is, you know, understanding it now as I see it in this industry, which is different from how I operated in my previous life, but, you know, expanding our our reach or our knowledge. I think that that's all also important is, you know, being an MSL, but being more than just an MSL. Yeah. There's so much here. I I learned a lot. I, I I I came into this thinking, alright, business acumen. This sounds important.
And and you guys certainly brought it around to, to really help, not just me, but I think everybody else understand what's the magnitude of it and how they can use it. And I appreciate you guys. This was awesome, and, we're gonna have to do this again. I know Navhan, just so you guys know, Navhan had, like, a list. How many topics did you have originally on the list? Yep. I I think I have a lot of variations on a theme, but I probably have, like, at least, I think, 4 or 5, different topics.
And this is what he said, Tom, this is the one that stuck. Yep. So this might not be the last you'll hear from me, guys. I certainly hope not. I hope you guys come back. Well, thank you guys Yeah. For coming on, and thank everyone. Thank you all for listening. Appreciate you all. Thanks for liking, sharing, and posting and doing all that good stuff on social media. You guys are the best, and, you guys have a great rest of your day. Thanks, Tom. You too.
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