Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Jason Demuth, director of medical science liaison at Strongbridge Bio, and we discuss creative ways to reach and access KOLs during COVID 19, and it's awesome, awesome stuff. I hope you guys enjoy it. Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Jason. How are you doing today, buddy? Thanks for joining me. Tom, it's fantastic to see you, my friend. Great to be here.
Thanks for having me. Me. Yeah, man. I'm excited. So let's start with, I have to tell everybody, I know you a long time. I am really, really excited that you're here, and and and I love I love the stuff that we talked about. And I don't wanna give anything away, but your creativity and the ways that you've been able to engage with KOLs during this COVID time is outstanding. So I can't wait to talk about it. No. No. Very very excited, and, you know, we're all in this together.
And whatever we can do to help each other out, I'm all for it. You're the man. You're the man. Well, before we do that, if you can just make a quick introduction, discuss your background a little bit and what you're up to these days, that'd be great. Sure. Sure. So so, again, I'm Jason Demuth. I'm a pharmacist by training, and, I am now an MSL at a small company, so we're less than a 100 employees.
And what what makes kind of, you know, this unique to me or, you know, I guess not just to me, but to a lot of people, I joined my my new company in a new therapeutic area right as COVID hit. Wow. So I didn't even get a chance to go out and try to meet my KOLs kind of live before COVID locked us down. So if if you can't find creative ways to to find people, you you're in trouble, in this day. Yeah. Awesome.
Well, now you're the perfect person to help out here, man, because I know a lot of people are looking for some tips and tricks. So, but just to go back, I you know, tell us a little bit about your journey. You know, how did you wind up in industry? How did you get your first MSL role and, you know, all that stuff? No. Absolutely, Tom. Absolutely. So, so so I am an older pharmacist, so I graduated with a BS in pharmacy school.
And, was pretty sure I wanted to be Charles Walgreens, when I graduated. And, it didn't take me long to figure out that wasn't the career path I wanted. Yeah. So so so what happened to me was I actually took a job. I went from retail, pharmacy. I took a job, as a sales rep, for a midsize pharma back in the late nineties, and absolutely love the industry. I love what it allows us to do. I I love the the chance that we get with our physicians to help patients, so it's it's fantastic for me.
And I will say my career has jumped back and forth, depending on my family situation. So as as I've got young kids at home, I've had to jump back to retail or not retail, but but but real pharmacy as I call it. Mhmm. So on that side, I so, again, I've I've worked retail. I was director to home infusion. I was director at a hospital pharmacy. So I I've I've been virtually everywhere you can you can be as a pharmacist. And on the industry side, so I I did start out in sales.
I was able to do well in that, went and got my PharmD, so was able to become an MSL at at basically the first place I was at. So that is certainly one career path that I've seen a lot of people, you know, take advantage and thrive in. You you might be a pharmacist. You might be a PhD, but you come in on the sales side, and you're able to show your value and show show you know what you're doing, and you can work your way up. So that's certainly one way.
But but I have in in my MSL side, I've I've been a consultant. I have also, done medical affairs, both on the clinical side as well as the health, economic side and managed care. So I, you know, I feel like, it wasn't my goal, but I have also, you know, worked in a lot of different places in the industry as well. Yeah. That's great, man. I love that story. And and, you know, I don't I don't know if we've ever talked about that specifically on this podcast, taking the sales angle.
And I know a lot of you know, it it is not very uncommon that people do that. You know? People come in to industry on the sales side, you know, maybe later get the degree, if they don't currently have, you know, a PharmD or PhD, and then make that transition to medical affairs. So it's you know, you're you're living proof that that's that's certainly a possibility. So, that's interesting.
So now you have this background, and you've been able to influence key opinion leaders from the commercial side, HEOR, all these different ways. So you obviously have a really strong background in knowing what it takes to get FaceTime. So tell us about some of the stuff that you came up with, the creative ideas and the creative ways that you were able to get FaceTime during COVID, which is still happening, by the way. Especially, I I I I I love the Twitter idea.
And I don't wanna jump ahead here, but let's talk about some of these ideas. Yeah. No. Tom, you're you're exactly right. And, I mean, let's face it. We we could have done this podcast 5 years ago, and we we'd still be talking about how to get access. Right? How to interact with our KOL. Yep. It it it's it's always a challenge, and and COVID has just made it so much easier for institutions, for other places to say, you know what? I I don't really have time for you. I don't wanna see you.
So it it's given them an an easy way to say no to you. And so, again, as as MSLs, we have to figure out, you know, where do our KOLs live and how can we respectfully interact with them. And what what I discovered it and I actually discovered this again before the time of COVID. 3, 4, 5 years ago, I found out about this thing called Twitter that that we're all pretty aware of now.
And, you know, although I I certainly used it at first just to yell at Avis because I didn't have a car ready at the airport and, you know, Marriott because my hotel wasn't great. But but I soon learned that, hey. It's it's actually where these KOLs hang out and have honest open discussions. And, you know, it it's really lucky that we're able to kind of see what's going on in their minds and see what they're talking about with their with their colleagues.
So it it was 3 or 4 years ago, I found some of the top national KOLs in the disease state I was in, and, you know, found out they were they were having these honest open discussions. And I, you know, I kind of watched that for, you know, 2, 3, 4 weeks. One discussion kind of evolved, and I finally found a spot where, you know, they were looking for answers and and they didn't know. And, you know, here on the sideline, I'm raising my hand. I'm shouting, no. No. The the data's out there.
Here's here's what it is. So that that is when I I took the leap and, you know, went ahead and posted my first tweet that wasn't, you know, wasn't yelling at the service and and said, hey. You know, you guys might have missed this, but, you know, this was just out a month ago. This gives you the answer you're looking for.
And so that was just an incredible way to actually meet these guys where they live, and, you know, that has now grown to even though I'm no longer in the disease state, that actually kinda grew into a real friendship. Yeah. You know, these these are KOLs that I still keep in contact with. I still wanna know, you know, kinda what they're thinking.
So it is an incredible way to to see what your KOLs are talking about, see what interests them, you know, see what they're actually talking about with their colleagues. And, again, there's, you know, be be respectful. You know, watch how they're doing it. Watch how they kind of what they respond to, how they like to be interacted with on Twitter. You know, but but you can certainly make that introduction, make that make that submission to their conversation, see where it goes.
Yeah. But it it again, like everything we do as MSL, nothing's a 100%. Yeah. But but I I have had fantastic, success doing doing, Twitter with my KOL. That's amazing. You know, that's a that's it's really a creative idea because I don't hear that a lot. I hear a lot of people kind of feel like they're overstepping their bounds. They're afraid to use social media because they don't want to you know, they're they're obviously being sensitive. Right?
But the thing is, when it comes to social media, whether it's Twitter or, LinkedIn or Facebook, if you have KOLs, if you have business contacts, colleagues that are really active on these networks, then clearly, they've embraced it, and it's okay to them. Now does it mean that they want you to engage with them? Well, that's that's a whole another story. But in this situation, you found a clear need through Twitter, and then you met that need and you answered it. So it's kind of a no brainer.
So I I I think it's masterful. I think it's awesome. Yeah. No. No. You you you're you're you're exactly right, Tom. And, you know, it does seem like the bigger the KOLs so now we're talking about the national KOLs. I mean, they love Twitter because it is so easy for them, you know, to interact with everybody around the country. You know, they're they're acting with all interacting with all the other KOLs out there. So so they they love it.
It's it's kind of those those mid levels where you do have to be Yeah. You know, that that's where you have to be a little more careful because they don't have thousands of people following them. They're not getting thousands of messages a day. So when you happen to to to wander into their timeline and say, hey. Here I am. You know, they might not always, appreciate that. They they might use Twitter for for different things.
But but, absolutely, if they are posting out there posting and talking about things, that's that's why they're there. And it's it's an opportunity for us, at the very least, to observe. And if you find an opening, you know, take it and and see if you can make an interaction. So the formula, if we had to break it down, is you follow, listen, learn, and then engage if you see the need. Does that does that make sense?
Correct. And and and I have never used Twitter to just find a blind opening and say, hey, doctor. Here I am. You know, let's talk. I I I watch. I listen enough where I can provide some value. So, again, that that's that's what I think MSL do. Yeah. We we try to find spots where we can add value, and I do the same on Twitter. When when I see a spot, you know and I might have to listen for 6 weeks, for 8 weeks, for for however long.
But once there's that opening where I can provide something, I I love to do that. And that's that's kinda you know, that that's why I'm on Twitter right now. Got you. So has it ever backfired? Oh, absolutely. Right? No. Every every, every MSL's got got a got a story about where they where they went a little too far. And and mine mine's the same. So, again, it's it's kinda that mid level KOL. So this is somebody at an academic center, and actually met him at a conference.
Had a he had a great idea for an for a, you know, a research project. And, you know, I to be honest, I had never even, you know, heard of him or or or at least interacted with him. He'd never been on my KOL list, but he had this great idea. And so it's kinda like, okay. Well, I need to, you know, kinda listen to this guy more. And I did wander into his timeline and, you know, figured, hey. He's gotta remember me from that conference last week.
And, you know, it it was it was somebody who kinda protected their Twitter standing, and and they didn't use it for that. And so I wandered into their timeline, and, you know, they honestly didn't remember who I was. And, and it wasn't appreciated. Oh. So so I I definitely, now tiptoe a little closer around that.
And if, you know, if that KOL is not using it for professional purposes, you know, to kinda to kinda talk through their clinical area, you know, I'll kind of avoid them until I see that that opening or that opportunity and, you know, stick the email, for for that guy. Yeah. For sure. So, obviously, there's sensitivity around this. We have to be careful. I listen. I think it's important, you know, you get an a for effort. Right? I mean, you gotta try.
You know, you get creative, and and sometimes there are limited options. Right? And and sometimes you're looking for creative ways because you've tried a lot of other things and it didn't work. So, I mean, I I I get it. I totally get it. And and I will just interject here, Tom. I mean, I I do think that has been you know, I I haven't been on the sales side for 20 years. I mean, even though that's how I came into the industry, I I, you know, I left sales in probably, you know, 2,000.
But it's it's those ideas and and kind of, you know, seeing that. I I credit that sales background, you know, for a lot of things and and, you know, being willing to put my neck on the line to find k KOLs. You know, I I really credit that to to the to the sales side. Yeah. No. It's great. That's funny. I started my career in sales too. I was a farmer rep for 10 years. So, you know, I I wouldn't have changed a thing. Those were great days. Yeah. No. Absolutely. So let me ask you this.
Have you used any other social media networks, like, you know, Facebook or LinkedIn, for professional purposes? So I I, you know, I do feel like LinkedIn is great on this side. You know, it's great to, you know, hook up with different MSLs from companies and network and, you know, that that's where the recruiters are. That's where the job boards are. So so I I do use LinkedIn for that side of it. I use Facebook to keep up with my mom and my aunts and uncles.
I've I've never used it professionally. And I I did get on Doximity a couple of years ago k. And felt like it was a great spot. You know, again, you you there is that walled entry, so you do need to be a health care professional to get in there. And, you know, it it it just didn't have the KOLs on there at the time. I I don't know if that's changed, but but for me, all the big KOLs now are on Twitter, and they're talking. Wow. So that's where I focus my effort. Yeah. Well and I agree.
I think, I think LinkedIn is probably the best networking tool out there. I think it's one of the greatest things for your career, and I think it's mandatory. I think it's it's today's rolodex. You know, back in the day, you know, when we first started in sales, we had a rolodex. You know, that the little thing you put on your desk and had all your business cards in it. Yeah. Everything's electronic now. It's your digital Rolodex, and that's your network.
And, you know, I think it's it's an important tool, but I think we have to be careful in how far we extend that professionally when we're dealing with, you know, with KOLs and top thought leaders.
But, you know, looking at other ways of engaging with KOLs and, you know, kind of going down that path, especially now during COVID, the MSL Society just came out with a survey, like, within the last couple of weeks, where they, they surveyed 475 k o l's, and they asked them what's their preferred means of communication with MSL's, and 82% said email. So what's your thought on that? And and how much do you use email?
You know, so so, you know, Tom, I I guess, you know, when I see my phone ring, right, you you're always a little afraid to pick it up. And, you know, if you ever do pick it up, you know, again and and even though this is what we do, when you do pick it up, you know, you just think, man, if you could just send me an email and save me this call, I want to do that. Right? No matter who it is and and what it's about.
So I I kinda brought that mindset, you know, to my job because, you know, as MSLs, we get that a lot. Oh oh, great great, Jason. Thanks. Nice to meet you. Just send me an email. You know? Just Yeah. Send me whatever you want via email. And, you know, as MSLs, you know, depending on your company in a lot of companies, that doesn't count as a metric. That doesn't count as an as an engagement.
So, you know, on on one hand, you know, MSLs don't wanna do it just because, you know, that cost them a a chance to pick up the phone and talk to somebody or or pick up the Zoom. But, I mean, to your point, things are different during COVID. And what what I have actually done is I I've kind of attempted to embrace email the same way I did Twitter. Is, you know, I do want to kinda meet these KOLs where they live.
And if they want email, well, even though I can't count it as an interaction, if I can compliantly provide them what they want, and and I guess that's where the big caveat comes in. Right? It it depends on where you're at and what your company's policies are, on what you can disseminate, how you can interact with people on email because, again, that we know that is a permanent record. So, you you know, you can't just put whatever you want in an email.
So, again, work with your manager, work with your compliance department to figure out what it is. But but I've, you know, I finally gave in during COVID when people said, hey, Jason. Thanks for reaching out, but I really just want this study, or I really just want this piece of information. And and, you know, I finally said, okay. You know what? I'm even though this isn't what's gonna be best for me, if this is what you want, then I'll go ahead.
And if I can provide it, I'll provide it via email. And just kinda like Twitter, you know, it might be that opening. Now it hasn't, you know, it hasn't worked in every time, but there are certainly, you know, 10 or 15 kol that, you know, wouldn't talk to me at first. And that relationship started with with an email. Mhmm. And it has grown, and I've actually been able to, you know, interact with these individuals, engage with them via the phone, via Zoom, you know, via Webex.
So I I I would always hate to think that, hey. My job as an MSL is just to send out a bunch of emails all day. Mhmm. But if that can provide that opening, you know, use it to your advantage, and and I guess you figure at the very least you've gotten out the information, you've gotten out the data, but but definitely attempting to use that, for more meaningful interactions.
You know, especially we know as MSLs, part of our job or or a big part of our job is to bring back insights into the company. So if it's just a one way email shot, you know, if you're just shooting information to your KOL, you're never gonna get those insights back. You know, so so you you hate to just leave it at that, but but it is a a great starting point, and and hopefully, you can build that into more. Yeah. No. That's I'll tell you. That's I think that's great advice.
It's a great way to explain it. I've I've spoken to some folks recently, you know, MSL leaders and MSLs that, you know, company policies really vary when it comes to email. So I think it's important to to really check-in with, with your direct supervisor, and your organization to see how you're supposed to handle email interaction, and does it count as a meaningful as meaningful engagement? Is it something that counts towards your metrics? There's so much to unpack when we look at that.
It seems pretty simple. Wow. 82% of of KOLs said that they prefer email. But there's a lot more behind that. So I appreciate your explanation. What do you think the future is gonna look like as far as access? And, you know, we're in a crazy time, but what do you see happening? So I I and I and I will say, so I live in the Midwest town. So I, you know, my territories on the whole are pretty big. You know, several states, 10, 15. I I've had one one job. I had 17 states.
Mhmm. So I am very hopeful that now we've all gotten used to, you know, used to this virtual environment and used to this new way. And, you know, honestly, I'm hoping, at the very least, I can use that to save myself some very long trips in the future. You know, so so, again, you know, some of these places that I would only get to twice a year, you know, maybe virtually, I can get there 4 or 5, 6 times a year.
So so I am hopeful that, especially, in these rural areas that now that we've learned to use these tools that that they'll stay that they'll stay there. I I do think in your major center, so I also have Chicago. So, you know, I assume once this all gets back to normal, like, you know, I assume I'll be in downtown Chicago a lot again because, you know, for a lot of KOLs, it is just easier just to say, hey. Just stop by than it is for me to figure out and set up my computer and and do all that.
So I I I do think it's it's gonna vary a lot, but I do hope some of these virtual tools will stick around it. And it does sound like, at least right now, the the KOLs and physicians are all for that. So they they seem to have embraced some of this virtual a little more than I expected. You know, so so I am hoping that it sticks around, but I I do think it at some point, when that point is, who knows? But I do think we'll be back in a hospital as as a big part of our job. Yeah. For sure.
I I I mean, I I agree with that. I think that it's only a matter of time until we get back to, the way it used to be pre COVID. But I do I do feel like video and virtual engagement is here to stay in some capacity. As you said, it it really couldn't first of all, I think we've all embraced it because we need to, But it really could improve interaction as we move forward, and hopefully, give you the ability to get more face time in places that, you know, you only get to a couple times a year.
So I everybody that I'm talking to is saying the same thing that they feel like, you know, it's it's it's not gonna replace live interaction, but it's going to augment it. Yes. Absolutely. And if it can help us be more productive, you know, it's it's fantastic. So so yes. So so, hopefully, part of the good parts stick around. Absolutely. Hopefully. So, you know, obviously, you've done so much.
We've talked about how great, you know, your career has been, and and I know you for a long time, and and I I've watched your career grow. And you're you're what I consider a success story as as a as a as a senior very senior level MSL. What's your advice to newer MSLs or even folks that are trying to break into the role? Oh, yeah, Tom. That that is that that's a great question because, I I mean, let's be honest. This this really is it's not the greatest one of the greatest jobs in the world.
And there's a lot of people who wanna get in, and and I I certainly understand that. And whatever we can do to help everybody is is fantastic. You know, you've I you've done a lot of these podcasts, Tom, and and everybody's got a a a different angle, a different way, you know. And and that's great because, you know, it is individual. Your mileage may vary, but but I'm a big fan in in kind of, you know, being yourself.
You've gotta find people you connect with, and and networking is everything in this job. So it's it is finding a way to get, you know if you're looking for that first job, it's finding your way in. You know, whether it's, you know, whether you've got a connection to pharmacist, whether you've got a doctor friend that you know that can, you know, guide you to somebody in the industry. But, you know, use everybody who contact anybody in the industry. So, again, it could be friends.
It could be other colleagues. You know, could be your personal position, but use them to just make connections. And and every time, you know, try to get a little bit closer, you know, find one person a little bit closer to your ultimate goal. But but I, you know, I I know I I list I just listened to your, Norwood Norward Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Podcast. And, you know, he he's he's about the exact opposite of me. You know? He's been in this industry 30 years, was with 2 companies.
Yeah. You know, I I've been in this industry, you know, 20 years and have had 10 companies. So it it just, you know, it just depends on where you're at, what your flexibility is. Big pharmas are great. If if you're, you know, a a new MSL, big pharma is great because they will train you exactly how to do it. I love small pharma for the for the opportunities and for the for the chance to do a little bit more Mhmm. But they don't have the training set up for you. Right.
You know, so you you probably need to be a seasoned MSL to to take a chance on a small company and have a small company take a chance on you that you can do your job. But but it it it does all come down to networking and, you know, it you know, obviously, the people the people on your podcast are open to it, and they wanna help, and and I'm the same way.
I'm on I'm on the LinkedIn, and, you know, I'm not promising I could find everybody a connection, but feel free to reach out to me and, you know, I love to connect people I can help. But but that's really what it comes down to. You've gotta find out who's out there, who can make that network connection for you, and and how can you be where you wanna be. Yeah. I mean, it's it's such great advice, and it's so consistent.
You know, it's it's such a common theme on this podcast where so many people, talk about how important networking is, not just for somebody that's looking to break into the role to get a foot in the door, but you need to continue to network throughout your career. Right?
I mean, you know, that's how you I mean, that's how you and I wound up sitting here right now is that we've known each other a long time, and we've networked, and we've introduced each other to different people and kept in touch. And, you know, and that's the beauty of the digital age, because it could be a text, it could be an email, it could be an InMail, it could be, some type of action on LinkedIn where you like something or you comment and you post. You know, you're in front of people.
And the more visibility you get through these tools, the greater of a networker you are. You might not consider that networking, but that's networking. Because you're you're gaining visibility and, you know, and you're staying in front of people. So that's awesome advice. Absolutely, Tom. And I would just throw in there. I mean, so so I've been in the industry 20 years. And so I have probably, you know, applied to, you know, 2,000 companies at this point. Right?
Every every place that's been around. And and I will say that the jobs I've got, they're either because I had a connection at the company, and so they brought in, you know, somebody they knew. You know? So, again, to your point, networking, or it's been through recruiters. Right? So you you've always got to find that connection, you know, whether it's in your personal network or with a recruiter. You know, those those, it seems to me, like, those are the people who get the job.
You know, so so do that networking to put yourself in the best spot to get that job. That's it, man. That's perfect advice. So let's leave it there because you know what? You, you just hit on everything. And, I know you're a busy guy. I know you gotta get back on Twitter. So but listen, I I can't thank you enough for coming on, and I appreciate all your support for the podcast. And, listen, man. I look forward to keeping in touch.
You're you're a great guy, and and you're you're what makes me love doing what I do because I've created relationships and friendships, and, I can't thank you enough. Yeah. No. I I I agree, Tom. The same to you. This this has been an incredible service you put out there, for the community. So I know the MSLs out there thank you as well for doing these podcasts. They they really are great. And, Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Yeah, man. Well, we'll talk soon. You be well. You too.
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