Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Jim Hahn. He is senior business director, thought leader engagement at EMD Serono. And we talk about the thought leader liaison role and how it fits into pharma. Awesome conversation. I I learned a ton. I think you guys are really gonna like this. So do me a favor. If you do and you get value from it, please share it with others. As always, I appreciate all your support of this show.
Welcome to MSL Talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Jim. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Great, Tom. Thank you for having me. Awesome. Guys, I'm excited because we are going into uncharted territory. This is a conversation that I'm really looking forward to because we haven't covered this topic, and I'm really interested in learning more about thought leader liaisons, and Jim's the guy.
He's so it just so happens that Jim was introduced to me through colleagues. He was at Mass East, but we missed each other. And then somehow we reconnected, and we had this this was just an idea that came about, and here we are. So before we get into it, you wanna do a quick introduction? Yeah. Sure. Jim Hahn. I work for EMD Serono, and I've been in the business for about 30 years. Right now, I'm the senior business director for the thought leader liaison team in the west region. Awesome.
So, guys, we're gonna get into real quick. We do have a sponsor. This episode sponsored by MSL Mastery, which is provides programs, skill development programs for MSLs and aspiring MSLs. So for more info, go to mslmastery.com. There's some new programs on presentation skills. And then there's the Aspire MSL program, which is how to land a position as your first MSL position, which is an online course. It's really good stuff.
We have tremendous success, especially recently with people starting their first MSL position. So check that out atmslmastery.com. Alright. Jim, let's get into it. So tell us, like, what is a thought leader liaison? Let's start there. Let's start with the the definition. Yeah. Sure. Well, I mean, first, I'll say that the thought leader liaison reports in through the commercial organization. So it's important to differentiate where they, you know, sort of sit, if you will.
I I I'd say it was 15, 20 years ago that probably more in the biotech aspect or part of the industry where it was determined there was a a need for an expertise on the commercial team, particularly to call on key opinion leaders. So I think the TLLs was born out of that as the, the business, continues to evolve. And the TLL generally reports in through, like, senior leadership or through marketing, you know, within that commercial organization, not necessarily through sales.
The objectives are tied to the commercial objectives. So whether that's increasing share, increasing demand, or expanding on the market, it just depends on the therapeutic area that you're talking about. But the TLLs and their activities is are driven towards whatever those commercial objectives are. So I'd say, in essence, they're deployed to create a stronger presence among key opinion leaders.
Okay. So can we get into and that's really helpful just as a foundation because I think there's probably a lot of people that aren't really sure exactly where the role sits. But now that we know that, can you talk about what the key responsibilities are of a thought leader liaison? Like, what exactly are they responsible for doing? Yeah. I mean, just starting with the key thought leaders or key opinion leaders, centers of excellence, high prescribers.
In essence, the target list, if you will, for a TLL is going to be directed at those individuals. So let's say if there's a 1,000 prescribers in the therapeutic area, there might be a 100, in essence, that are are really key to, creating regional and national influence. So I think the the the number one thing that behavior or the thing that the TLs need to do is to get to know the needs, beliefs, and the thought process behind the protocols that that these key opinion leaders have.
Because, really, what we have to do as a thought leader liaison is liaison to the broader organization and connect our in a compliant way, our HCP needs with where the, organization would be a collaborator partner. And and that even extends out to third parties like patient advocacy groups. Right? Anytime you can create a connection between your HCP and the things that they're looking to to do or connect with becomes an important facet to the relationship and what they can accomplish.
So, again, the key thing here is that it's tied back to the commercial organization Yep. And the needs of of the commercial team. As a as another responsibility that that typically you find that TLLs have, they're responsible for the speaker management, choosing a speaker for programs, peer to peer programs, and such, and also ongoing speaker training updates that are done throughout the year.
So it's interesting because when you hear the title, you almost think that a thought leader liaison is would almost be similar to an MSL in some extent where they interact with and communicate with external thought leaders and k opinion leaders. But what it sounds like what you're saying is they do, but it's really to organize and navigate how the organization will then service, for lack of a better word, that thought leader and provide the right resources for that thought leaders.
Is that accurate? Oh, I think you nailed it. That that's exactly right. I think that each thought leader has a different sets of, needs, interests, and sometimes those fall to the medical side, and sometimes they fall to the commercial side. And depending on which side of that, line they that they fall to, you now have, you know, the thought leader liaison or the MSL to address those needs and work with the customer. Awesome.
Yeah. And looking at so being heavily entrenched in the medical science liaison community, obviously, this podcast is for MSLs. You know, typically, what we see as far as the background for an MSL would be advanced scientific degree, doctorate level background. Is that consistent with what a thought leader liaison might require? Is is is that a requirement for for TLLs as well? Yeah. There are not those degrees, an advanced degree requirement for TLLs.
I would say most of the TLLs have probably come from a a path where they had a very successful sales career. Mhmm. They've exhibited strong interpersonal relationship skills, that are essential to, you know, HCP engagement. And I think this is where it gets closer to, you know, what the MSL is doing.
They do generally have a more advanced sort of understanding of the disease state, a higher sort of clinical credibility, if you will, that, it I don't think it ever really gets near to arrivals in MSL, and, certainly, there isn't necessary degrees tied to it. But at the same time, it's not uncommon for advanced providers, for example, nurse practitioners, PAs, or PharmDs, and other health care experienced folks to be actually to take a role in, with as a TLL.
So, you know, that that does happen quite often. So, but it's not a requirement. Got you. Okay. That's helpful. And I imagine that the strategic objectives are gonna be different for a TLL versus the obviously, an an MSO. Can you talk a little bit about what obviously, you talked about what they do, but what are some of the strategic objectives and goals?
Yeah. So, again, I think this is where you it it goes it all if you always go back to the beginning and and and recognize that any particular pharma biotech company have one objective, but they have 2 distinct teams, right, with medical, medical affairs, and the commercial organization. And that's where the branches start to really differentiate in terms of what their objectives are.
So I think anytime you wanna, you know, look at what a TLL is doing and and differentiate it in terms of the strategic objectives versus, let's say, an MSL, you just look to that just look at the the that set of objectives that each of those teams are gonna have. Right? Medical team is gonna be looking to develop and execute their medical strategy, drive data generation, either to fill gaps or address unmet needs.
They're obviously optimizing their scientific exchange and try to gather medical insights. That isn't at all what a TLL is doing. Right? The TLL, they're aligned to whatever the sort of marketing strategic objectives are that they can implement or foster through the key opinion leaders and through centers of excellence, you know, and, depending on what the therapeutic area is. Got it. Yeah. So what would you say so what are the benefits to a TLL team?
Like, why wouldn't you just have a sales team on one side and then an MSL team on another side? What what would the benefits of a TLL team be Yeah. As another entity? Yeah. I think, especially in biotech, as things have gotten more complex, there's a recognition that as your sales teams are deployed, they might have anywhere from, let's say, 50 to 60 targets. Right?
So if if you think about your territory and and what you have to do to to navigate that territory and target 60 or so HCPs, it it doesn't leave as much time to call on those key opinion leaders and those thought leaders that are that have national and regional influence and also have a whole different sets of needs. Right?
So if you're in neurology and you're calling on general neurologists, may they're seeing, you know, smattering of of neurological diseases, they don't focus or concentrate on any one area. Whereas the centers of excellence in a particular area of neurology and the key opinion leaders, that's all they see. And so their interests go much deeper, and the the things the ways they wanna be involved with a company with Biotech company is gonna be different.
So in some cases, it's medical and it's trials and studies, and and that's gonna fall then to your MSL. But in other ways, they're trying to create connections and establish relationships throughout, the network of patient advocates and speaking and being involved in ad boards and really having, you know, a presence across that space. And so the TLL is dedicated really to, let's say, 10% of the total volume of targets that are out there.
And they're given certain opportunities to engage with that key opinion leader differently than their sales rep, and their relationships go much deeper, and they spend more time with them, really, at trying to understand the needs of that customer so that they can align that to the resources and assets that a company can provide, you know, to any given customer.
So I think, really, that's where the TLL was born from was the opportunity to concentrate more on those providers who are, you know, are gonna have a distinct influence and presence in a particular therapeutic area. And from a commercial standpoint, it was hard to do that as a sales rep if you have 60 other targets. Yeah. Interesting. So this so that's I guess it it all kinda makes sense.
It comes together in that so if if the TLL is only responsible for really, you know, 10% of the thought leaders, so it's just very targeted to key individuals. And it's almost like a concierge service, if you will, where you just wanna make sure that you're taking care of your best customer, so to speak. Exactly. And and and, listen, access has grown increasingly difficult. Right? We all we all recognize that.
I mean, certainly, COVID, tested that very much in terms of being able to get access back to even the level it was before COVID. So TLLs are given certain opportunities to engage with customers outside of the office. Typically, a sales rep really can only see an ACP in his or her office, and TLLs are able to engage with customers outside the office. And and so that opens up opportunities, whether it's at a congress or at at at a meal.
You know, you have much more time, and that time allows you to build that relationship, build a level of trust, and then understand how you can align, you know, commercial objectives with the needs of the customer. Got you. Interesting. So then are there metrics and KPIs? Yeah. Yeah. The and and that one is is always gonna be dependent on what the objectives are that any given, organization has for their commercial teams and and specifically for the TLL team.
So I'd I'd I'd say what you typically see is the TLL is paid out on an annual incentive plan, and that incentive plan or that annual plan is is really driven by quarterly MBOs. So the MBOs basically will outline really what the measurement is of of of performance that they might give a TLL team. You know, you're looking for for the TLLs to demonstrate a level of leadership and strategic thinking and how they go about their business, how they execute on, let's say, programs or resources.
And you also wanna see that they continue to show that demonstrate, like, a clinical understanding and a clinical and a credibility with the HCPs, because they really need to be able to engage with them at a higher level so that they have that credibility and trust. And and so you're looking at all those things, I guess, in managing and evaluating the TLLs. Got you. Yeah. And they they generally also work across, you know, a territory or an area.
It's they're not as limited by what their geography is because the more people that an ACP knows in an organization, the better. Right? So Yeah. Leadership start to expand, and then you get to know people across the nation, and it's it's it's very effective. Right. Yeah. And what's inter it's just interesting. As I'm talking I'm just I wanna be 100% transparent.
As we're talking, I'm learning a lot because I did it a lot of this stuff I kinda thought, maybe I assumed, but I didn't know all of these details. So there's a and forgive me for just hammering you with questions, but there's so many things that are coming into my head. And the next thing is, so how do TLLs and MSLs collaborate? Are are they or do they work together on things, or or how do how does that collaboration work if at all?
Yeah. Well, I mean, since they're both probably calling on and targeting this, you know, very similar number of HCPs, it's it's really important that they're working together or at least appear to the customer that they're up for working with the same company, right, but from the same company. I you know, there's clearly lines of delineation and important compliance and legal differentiations and policies put in place so that what each of the customer facing teams are doing is appropriate.
They're in the field together, and there are gonna be times when they're targeting the same customer. So I think, you know, the the key is communication. At the end of the day, if they're communicating weekly or, appropriately, then they know what each other's doing. It's not that they know the details of what they're doing. Right? But they know what each one is is involved with in terms of calling on customers. And I'd say the handoff is key. Right?
If it's working well, a TLL in engaging with a customer finds out that they they have certain questions from that only medical can answer or certain things that they'd like to be able to do with the organization that that drives medical, that should increase the the frequency with which medical can easily engage in a hand off to the MSL. So it it should increase.
And then the other side of it, when the medical's engaging with a customer and their questions or requests fall back to commercial, you know, something commercially related, then that's an opportunity to communicate with the TLL or or the sales rep to get the information that the customer needs. So it should be very effective for all parties, but it does also mean that, sometimes with that competition for time.
So now it as as you said that, it it kinda made me think is are there any, like, conflicts? Is there any dissension between on the troops when it comes to, you know, TLLs versus MSLs versus sales? Like, how does that all everybody play nice in the sandbox? Or Yeah. I mean, if if you take 3, you know, individuals, they're all customer facing, and they each have different set of objectives and what they're after, but they're all targeting their attention to the same individual.
You know, it's it's possible to see how there could be some issues or or conflict, right, in terms of utilization of of of an ACP's time. You know, ACPs generally are so busy that they don't have time to see everyone. Right? So then you send up seeing 3 people from the same organization, and you wonder, can I just consolidate it to 1? And I think that's where, you know, you start to see it's not so much a conflict. It's just a challenge. And that's why the communication is so important.
But I think the sales reps, you know, they're looking for a total office relationship, so their time in an office may or may not be with with the ECP specifically. It could be just something they're where they're really trying to make sure that that the company's positioned everywhere they need to be for that entire office, which is responsible for the care and availability of therapies. And the TLL, right, has their commercial objectives, and and the MSL has theirs from medical side.
So the key is to make sure that they're communicating. I I think there was I one example comes to mind is we started as a TLL team. We had journal clubs. So we had a set of papers that were separate and different from the journal clubs that the medical team had, that the MSLs were using. But just the idea of that we call them journal clubs created a conflict.
Like, the MSLs were like, we do journal clubs, And for you guys to do them also, it gets confusing for the customer, which I totally agree with. We ended up just changing the name to Lit Reviews. Right? And the other thing that that that's important and and, again, that's just a subtle thing, but you wanna back away from areas where you're creating confusion for the customer.
And I think that's where you also have to recognize if you're a TLL and your customer really would just prefer to engage with medical, which is often the case with many of them, you you need to find ways to to make sure that your MSL has the you know, right away, if you will, and that they have exceedingly more time with the customer because that's where the customer's needs and desire is to engage with the company is with medical.
So if you're communicating, then you can land on the right balance, and I think that's sometimes what's missing when there's, let's say, a conflict. Yeah. Cool. Wow. So then what like, when you look at the access conversation, and and that's a big that's a big issue right now is is FaceTime for sales reps, for MSLs. Where do TLLs fit into that? Do they get more access? Is it because they're just responsible for that top 10%, you know, thought leader? Is it easier for them?
I'm curious as to how that fits in. I mean, sometimes the sales reps are bringing in the TLL. Right? If you get a off label question or if you get a question that's for information as a as a sales rep that pertains to, you know, a congress or or poster, you get you know, you're gonna go to your MSL. You're gonna do a medical information request, and you're gonna direct it to medical. But the TLLs have a lot of resources and assets that the sales reps don't have.
So there are opportunities where the TLL has a slide deck pertaining to a disease state or attributes of the brand that you're promoting that the that the sales rep doesn't have. And so a lot of times, the sales rep can bring in TLL as an additional resource to talk to customers. So even though we don't target everyone that the sales reps target, we're there to help drive commercial objectives.
Yeah. So I I I think it I think if the time works out in terms of what everybody needs if they're communicating, and it generally works pretty well. Right? It's processing people. If if you have a good process in place, that's a start, but then people need to work together effectively too. Yeah. No. It sounds like that's I mean, as you're talking, I think probably the biggest thing you said is the how important it is to communicate.
I think that communication piece in this in these scenarios, I think it's so pivotal. I think it's so important. And I also kinda get the sense that TLLs really seem like they sit more into either a large pharma or midsize pharma. Like, is it is are are there TLLs at, like, a small biotech? Oh, yeah. Oh? Yep. I mean, depends on what you mean by small, I guess. I guess midsize biotech for sure. Yeah. And in small biotech, maybe not.
But, again, anywhere you need, to engage key opinion leaders at from a commercial space, that's that's your best bet Yeah. Is the TLL. Yeah. So Would you say does the role and responsibility of the TLL vary depending on therapeutic focus? Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.
Even across companies in the same therapeutic area, you know, like, taking MS for for example, you're gonna have, depending on on leadership, right, and how they feel that it's best to deploy the TLL team, you might have a different set of, objectives. And I would imagine rare diseases too. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then what about, like, for job seekers? Like, there's a lot of people that are listening to this that, you know, maybe on the market and or maybe looking to break into industry.
What types of backgrounds when you're hiring, like, what types of folks are you looking for? How experienced? What's the skill set? Walk us through that a little bit. Yeah. Sure. You know, 1st and foremost, I'd say you're looking at probably the track record of high performance field representatives, people from a field role. So it might be typically from a sales position. Right? I mean, that's that's probably the biggest feeder into the TLL role, is someone with a successful track record.
But, you know, in order to be successful in the TLL role, you really have to have that disease state expertise, and you also need to have strong interpersonal skills because it's really it's a people business. It's about, you know, building the trust and relationship with the customer. So people with advanced degrees, that that's a huge and and who already have, like, let's say, an established network or, you know, sets of relationships.
I mean, we just hired an advanced provider in in the therapeutic space that we're in. Doesn't have any formal, you know, pharma or biotech experience in a customer facing role. But, certainly, you know, all the time she spent in providing health care, she understand and and the network that she has, it it, it contributes to the likelihood of success if it's the right position and it's motivating. Right?
And so that opportunity, it, you know, is increasingly, I think, for TLLs is going to people outside of the the Salesforce Mhmm. And more to, you know, people with that specific expertise. Do you see this I know you're it's probably gonna be a biased answer because you're so entrenched in this space. But do you see this as a growing field? Do you think that it's just gonna continue to evolve?
Well, I mean, I've I've known senior leaders who've predicted since, like, the early 2000 that pharma and biotech would evolve where no reps weren't gonna be needed. And that has not panned out to be true at all, and COVID tested that that theory probably more than anything.
I think that what we're seeing is that, as pharma guidance continues to evolve, companies will need to continue to evolve to see how they wanna deploy people from a commercial standpoint, and nothing's gonna beat the face to face engagement that is generated with people going to CACPs out in their offices. Nothing nothing will replace that. And and medical's a whole different side.
You're you're never gonna get away with executing medical strategy without an MSL, without someone going to see that. And so, yeah, so I I think the TLLs and sales reps are both in good position, and it'll evolve how it looks depending on how the market changes. Yeah. But I think both positions are are ripe with opportunity. And each therapeutic area will probably determine or dictate what those objectives look like and and the type of person that you're looking to hire.
I come from a sales background. So I spent 10 like, the first 10 years of my career in sales, and it's very near and dear to my heart. I'm really kinda more in the MSO world nowadays, but, we have you know, we recruit MSLs. We've recruited salespeople. We continue to recruit TLLs and, you know, anything across the board. I agree with you. I think that the face to face interaction and that that that relationship, I think, is the foundation.
Relationship with external customers, I think, is so pivotal to the success of an organization. And and for that reason, I think that the threat of artificial intelligence because people are saying now, well, you know what? We're not gonna need sales reps anymore or MSLs or TLLs because everything's gonna you know, physicians and KLLs and thought leaders and whatever else, they're all gonna just they're gonna talk to a computer.
They're gonna have all their interactions with a machine because the machine is gonna be is gonna learn everything it needs to do to answer those questions. How do you feel about that? Yeah. No. It's way more far than engaging to talk to someone. I mean, the relationships that are built over time with HCPs and getting to know them and getting and and them feeling heard and understood, that's not I don't think that's something that you're gonna get interfacing with a computer. Yeah. Right?
That that human connection, it's just hard for me to imagine a time so far down the road that something on a computer or mechanical could replace that that human interaction that we have. And that and and I think that's that's essentially why experts and MSLs and customer facing teams, no matter where they're from, are gonna be essential to successful brands and innovation. Right?
I mean, the innovation that's coming from AI or or from the lab, those things are all gonna feed the need for the presence, I think, of of these field teams. So Yeah. No. I agree. And I, you know, I say that seriously but kinda joking at the same time because it you can't even joke about stuff anymore because you just don't know what's gonna happen. You know? Right. You just don't know. But that's been a conversation that seems to keep or a question that seems to keep coming up at conferences.
Yeah. Interesting. So I'm in agreement with you. But where so what would you say? What's the next 5 to 10 years look like for for the field interaction for pharma and biotech companies with their external thought leaders? Yeah. Well, I I do think increasingly that thought leaders are extremely important to the commercial success of a brand.
In other words, we think about our customer facing teams and what they do to enhance the growing demand for a product, but I think your thought leaders, the the physicians out there and the voice they have, carries much more weight.
And so you you need to have, both a a strategy that involves medical and MSLs and commercial to combine to sort of persuade those thought leaders and influence them on how they are are projecting what your brand looks like within that market, and that influence is essential both from a medical and commercial standpoint because those thought leaders, I believe, increasingly, are going to influence more and more prescribers, right, the generalists and
those that not only look to a company to understand a product, but look to their peers. And so, yeah, I think that I think it's gonna be an increase in demand for customer facing teams, specifically MSLs, maybe TLLs, to position themselves appropriately with with that with those key opinion leaders. And and we know now we we differentiate thought leaders by, local influencers, regional influencers, national influencers, and now even international influencers. Right?
So there's all sorts of levels and ways that you can really segment out just how important these thought leaders are to any given therapeutic area and the success of a brand. Yeah. And digital influencers. Right? I mean, that Oh, well yeah. So well, the yeah. I don't even know how to call it by their reach. Yeah. Yeah. And if and, obviously, you know, you could be a regional or national influencer and be a DOL at the same time.
So I took there's a lot of overlap in here, but, Jim, this was awesome. I really learned a lot. And I love having these conversations where it's novel. This was a novel topic on this podcast. We haven't covered this yet. So I hope it helps a lot of people, and, I really appreciate you taking the time. Yeah. No. Thanks for having me. I I the success you've had on this is really impressive.
I when I heard about your podcast and and seeing how many followers you have, granted, a little nervous to be on here having not really talked about it in this, in a general way, but I appreciate you having me on. It was a ball. Thank you. Well, the reason this shows a success is because of people like you, is because there's just so many amazing, you know, influencers and leaders that are out there that take time to do this.
So I I this would not be successful without someone like you and all the others that I'm so grateful for the opportunity to chat with. And for all of you guys that are listening and sharing these these episodes, it really means a lot. And I I just appreciate every single one of you. So, Jim, thank you again. You know, I will definitely have to maybe consider what would part 2 look like for our next conversation. I'll have to think about that. Alright. Thanks, Tom. Awesome. Hey, guys.
Thank you for listening. As always, appreciate all of your support, and, we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you've enjoyed it, please subscribe so that you don't miss episodes in the future, and feel free to leave a rating or a review or a comment. Thanks again, and I look forward to seeing you again soon.