Hey, guys. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Renu Junesha, and she is head of scientific evidence and communications at Johnson and Johnson. And we talk about her three mantras for core values and leadership. It's really an awesome conversation. I learned a lot. I Think you guys are gonna like it. Don't forget to follow me on LinkedIn and join us for MSL talk live, which is once a month. And we announced that on LinkedIn. It's on the LinkedIn platform.
So please check those out, and, we look forward to seeing you there. Thank you for all your support. Welcome to MSL talk with Tom Caravella, a podcast specifically designed for MSLs and all things field medical. Hey, Renu. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. How are you? Good. Good, Tom. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me and giving me this opportunity. Yeah. I am excited. I'm really excited. So, guys, I've known Renew for a while. See her at conferences. We met probably at MAPS.
Getting ready to see renew at maps, coming up this weekend in Puerto Rico. So this was just a great way for us to collaborate and and kick off, you know, all the conversations that we've been having. I think you guys are gonna enjoy this before we get into this topic, Renu, why don't you introduce yourself and tell everybody who you are and where you're from and all that good stuff? Sure. Thank you. So I am working at Johnson and Johnson US Medical Affairs Oncology.
And, you know, over my tenure at Novo Nordisk, then MedImmune, AstraZeneca, and now Johnson and Johnson, I have been in medical affairs for over 25 years and have almost, you know, touched all aspects of medical affairs, you know, medical affairs, strategy, business planning, budget, you know, data generation, data communication, MSL resources and training. So, yes, have been through this journey, you know, and touching on many different aspects of medical affairs.
And that's kind of a humble way. Like, renew is, like, literally an like, an expert and leader in medical affairs. So that was like a humble introduction. You guys will see by the time we're done with this conversation, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Right. So, well, thank you for joining before we get into the conversation. I want to announce that this episode is sponsored by, fierce life sciences. And guys I've been talking about this for a while.
You really need to sign up for mass east, the medical affairs strategic summit east this year. It's gonna be in Jersey City, May 6th through 8th. It is the premier event for you to connect with medical affairs leaders across pharma for 3 days of focused learning and and fun networking. So elevate your expertise at Mass East this year. Listeners of the MSL Talk Podcast can get 25% off registration.
Just use the code MSL talk, all one word, and you go to medaffairssummit.com or just go to your browser and type in Mass East 2024. So we will see you guys in Jersey City. Let's jump into this topic. We're gonna talk about, the importance of core values and leadership. And this was a topic that came to me, renew, and I were having a conversation, and this this topic came up. I said, you know what? We haven't really covered that.
So we're gonna dive into it, but I'd love renew for you to just talk a little bit more about your background, because I think it sets the tone for this core values discussion. I know you grew up in India. Is that correct? Correct. That is correct. And before I get into this, Tom, I would just like to put a disclaimer out that all, you know, what I'm going to express here or my opinion. These are just my opinions and not of my employer or anybody else.
Just take your disclaimer to get it out of the way. Great. You're right. I grew up in a very small town in India. And, you know, I was the first woman, that time a young girl, from my high school class who left that little town to go to a prep school in a city because I realized that if I want to get in a good school, good program, you know, I needed that exposure. You know, I'm just not gonna make that big jump from small little town to, you know, a big school in a city.
So I I went to prep school after 10th grade, 16 years old, left left, you know, my town and my home, and, did my undergraduate and mass undergraduate and masters in biochemistry. Then went to a pretty big medical research institute, and did my PhD there in reproductive biology. Always had a dream of, you know, coming to US for postdoctoral fellowship, but it was a dream at that time, I must say.
During my PhD, I got married, you know, defended my thesis, had my daughter, and then, you know, apply started applying, for postdoctoral fellowship, got in 3 places, decided to take a Rockefeller Foundation Fellowship and come to Rockefeller University. We arrived at JFK in September of 1991, you know, with my husband, 10 month old baby, 5 suitcases, and $835 in our pocket. And a dream. Yeah. That's all we could gather.
Yeah. Yes. Yes. And big dream of having my lab, my students, you know, my academia and grants and everything, and then reality sets in. Yeah. You know, I realize how hard it was, academic, career. More so being a woman and a colored woman. Yeah. Right? Women of color. Right? So was was difficult. Long story short, you know, pivoted to a pharmaceutical industry, got my first job as a medical writer, and rest is history. You know? I Amazing. Yeah. That's amazing.
Yeah. And you've you've done so well. You've you've had such an amazing, tremendous career. So I want I'm so glad we started with that. It really sets the tone for the conversation. And I I let's let's jump into it, because I I wanna start with if you could talk about what you mean by core values and and tell us a little bit more about how important that was for you, not just earlier in your career, but how how you've developed your career based on your core values.
Yes. Sure. Yeah. So when I look at Tom or I think about core values, they really mean my guiding principles. Mhmm. Mhmm. I anchor my inner compass. You know? And as you said that, you know, yes, I had core values. I think, you know, ever since I remember, you know, I have had core values, but they did evolve over time. And, also, they became more important as my career progressed. You know? And and I listened to your podcast on core values, you know, one day driving in from work.
And as you have said that, you know, they are deep rooted beliefs. Right? They are really your driving force kind of thing. I think that that's what it really is, that where do you go to, what principles do you follow, you know, as as, so to say, purpose of your life or as main, you know, driver of your life. Right? So it has been always very important core values. Even when I was growing up in that small town, you know, those those I I didn't realize at that time.
I must say I did not realize at that time that I was going back to my core value values. I, you know, realized that later on in my life. But the principles have been there, you know, as as far as I remember. Yeah. And I'll I'll tell you and I'm glad that you mentioned the the podcast. I did a solo podcast about this topic because it it's something that, you know, not everybody will live by a set of core values or be in touch with their own core values.
I know that it took me until I was much further in my career until I actually sat down with a mentor that said, hey. What do you value the most? What's most important to you? Because knowing that piece helps guide as you said, it helps to guide you. It also helps you to make decisions, decisions on Yeah. Who you wanna work with, who do you wanna work for, how you're gonna handle certain situations, what to say no to, what to say yes to.
I think it's important that if you haven't done this yet, you should really consider sitting down and just go to the Internet and type in 4 values list and get a list of them and say, okay. These are what's most important to me in my life. Faith, family. For me, it's fitness and, service. There's a lot of different things, but you have to decide what's most important for you. So let me ask you, Renu. You had mentioned 3 mantras of core values.
So what are those 3 mantras that you mentioned to me? Sure. Yeah. So before I mentioned those, Tom, I know you much better now after, you know, listening to your core values podcast. I know who you are as a person, you know, not as a professional or at what you do, but who you are as a person. You know? And I can really appreciate, you know, listening to your core values, and it gave me, like, I would say, deeper insight into who you are. You know? So thank you. Thank you for sharing that.
So, yes, my 3 mantras. 1st is CEO mentality. You know? 2nd one is nobody wants to do a lousy job on purpose. And the third one is being fair and, consistent. You know? And it sounds simple, those things, but, you know, very sometimes, difficult to live by day in and day out. But they kind of guide you. They they, you know, kind of help you center. You know, they definitely center me. I they'll don't let me sway to 2 extremes, but, you know, really bring me back and center me.
But, yes, CEO mentality, nobody wants to do a lousy job on purpose and being fair and consistent. I love the I think those are great, and I think that they they they really speak to the caliber and quality of the type of leader that you are hearing that. And, again, hopefully, that gives others some inspiration to figure out, okay, what are mine and and what's most important to me, or maybe just look at that as inspiration in their own careers. So a core value can be one word.
It could be a phrase. It could be a a a sentence. It doesn't just have to be one specific thing, but I like the way you broke it down into 3 specific different mantras as you call them and use them as your guiding principles. And would you say, like, do do these help you in the decision making process in your life, would you say? Definitely. Definitely. And, you know, and they're not just your professional core values, right, in your professional lives.
Sometimes they do help me in my personal I mean, in personal life, I have couple of others too, but in my they do help me make decisions. Like, in CEO mentality, as you know, you know, things are not black and white. You know? They're not just you know, they are many different shades of gray, more than I would like them to be. Right? So every time I'm in that situation, I ask myself, what would a CEO do? I am CEO of this team, this function, this department. You know?
What would a CEO do in this situation? Not Renu, what would Renu do, what would an individual do, but look and see your in my mind, CEO's core responsibilities take taking care of your team members, your unit function, as well as balancing it with what you have to deliver for the business. Right? I I do think it's a balance. It's never should be, you know, delivering results at the cost of people or taking care of people and not delivering results. Right?
There is always that good balance between the two things. So it really helps me think through what would a CEO do, or if I am a CEO hat wearing that hat, what would I do in that case? Like, when I was doing my PhD, the topic I was working on, I was CEO of that. Right? First time I wrote that manuscript, being a medical writer, I was CEO. I knew more about that data and publication than anybody else. Right?
Similarly, as I, you know, grew in my career progressed in my career, CEO of my team, CEO of my function, or CEO of, you know, department. Doesn't matter what smaller or bigger team. Now the second one, nobody wants to do a lousy job on purpose. This has actually, I think I have been, surprisingly surprised, I would say, many times by following that mantra.
Because every time somebody is not performing or something is not results are not being, you know, delivered in time or something is happening in the team, my first question that pops up in my head is, what's going on here? You know, what's going on? Not just, oh, it's a per performance issue. Let's put it on performance improvement plan or you know? That in my mind, that's a simple way. That's a easier way to go. Right?
But as a leader, especially 360 leader who cares about people beyond 9 to 5. Right? I do think about that, what's going on? Is there something going on in their personal lives that's impacting the work? Or communication and goals are not clear to them, so they don't know what they are supposed to deliver, or the job has evolved so much that now their skills are not aligned with their, you know, responsibilities. Right?
So I in all of these three cases, I think leaders have more responsibility to think about it and, you know, really dig deeper into it than just kind of, oh, this person is not working out. Let's just get get this person out. And as I said, pleasantly surprised because when I have worked on those principles and worked on this second mantra, I see people turn around. You help them during their downtime or their low time, and people just become motivated.
And and you get benefit in the long term, not just during that time, but their motivation, their dedication, you get it for long term in their careers. You know? Yeah. So it really, really has worked out well well for me. There's so much to unpack in what you just said. So let let me first start by saying that what I'm hearing from you is that there's this accountability that's happening in relation to these mantras, accountability to yourself.
So it sounds like you hold yourself accountable to these core values and through these mantras by asking yourself questions. So you're questioning yourself. Is that a common practice for you? Is that is that what holds you accountable? Yes. It's a common practice for me because end of the day, I want to look myself in the mirror and say I did the right thing. I stood by. Right? I I did the right by people Yeah. You know, who are on my team whose careers are kind of, sort of in my hand. Right?
So I did right by them. I did the easy way out. You know? I really dug deep. And sometimes, you know, we all are human beings. We all have highs and lows of lives, right, going on. So if we don't support them during their, you know, low times, then that's a shame in my mind. Yeah. That's not aligned with my core values. So I definitely hold myself accountable.
But you're so you hold yourself accountable by checking in and asking yourself these questions, but you're holding other people accountable as well Well, absolutely. To this standard. Absolutely. I mean, I have had many people who have said, you have been the best boss and the toughest boss. You know? You have been the supportive boss, but really holding us accountable boss. You know? So yeah. I mean, absolutely. Without that, you can deliver results. You can do things. Right?
So, yes, I mean, it's all as long as they know I have their back, and they know I'll support them. But at the same time, they know that I'll hold them accountable when things are not being delivered in time or with quality. Right? Kind of. You know, it's it's as timing would have it. I heard an expression last week. That's perfect for what you just said. So obviously you have good relationships with your people and you're able to hold them accountable. Accountability without.
A relationship is harassment. Accountability with a relationship is love. Wow. Wow. That is that is deep. That is definitely deep. Yes. Yeah. But it makes sense because when you have good relationships with your people Yes. And you hold them accountable to a certain standard, you're doing it to support them and their career or maybe them personally. But that accountability piece is is out of love, really.
Definitely. That I mean, you know, I throughout my career, I have had people, you know, who came in, didn't believe in themselves. Right? Yeah. They didn't believe in they didn't know their own potential. Right? And I always believe that a good leader actually brings out the potential in people that they didn't don't even know they have it. You know?
Yeah. That's that's, like, a really good, you know, deep relationship and good leadership combined together and holding them accountable, of course. You know? Otherwise, you don't you can't deliver results. But that is deep. Yeah. That, you know, accountability without yes. It is harassment or with care, it is all law. Yes. That's deep.
And we we keep using so we're using the word leaders and leadership, but would you say that this concept of core values also applies to individual contributors and MSLs, and it's not we're not just talking about leaders here. Correct? Yes. Correct. Absolutely correct. In my mind, Tom, leadership is is is a state of mind. It's not a title. You know?
It's not a I was a leader, you know, back when I was doing PhD or I was a leader when I was, you know, helping some women in my community or otherwise. Right? In their in my mind, leadership doesn't start being a manager of not other people or a director or whatever. It's it's not a title. It's a mindset. Right? And you when you feel empowered, you feel you have things under control, you wear that CEO hat, I think that's that's leadership. You know, that is totally leadership.
And, of course, yes, it is totally for any individual and every individual to, you know, feel empowered and feel that they can control. It's hard work. It's hard work. I'm I'm gonna say that. It's not easy, you know, sometimes to feel empowered and sometime, you know, speaking up when when, you know, the powers to be don't like you speaking up Mhmm. Right in there. But, it's worth it. It's all worth it. You know?
The leadership, you you can be at any level, at any job, in any, you know, hierarchy, any place, and you can be a leader if you choose to be. I agree. I totally agree. So let's talk about the getting back to developing core values and and mantras like you did. Yeah. And the fact that it's not just for leaders. So there's a lot of people listening to this right now in a lot of different capacities, different levels.
So how would you explain to them or guide them on that on how they could develop their own mantras and core values. Yes. Yeah. I think, as you said, Tom, in the beginning, it's not easy. Right? It's not you do sometimes don't know where to start or how to start in there. I I personally would suggest that keep digging in. Keep digging in to see what what ticks me. What really excites me? What drives me? Right?
What is what do I think is the purpose of all that my existence on this earth, basically? Right? Why why I'm here? You know? What am I doing? If you keep digging it and keep, you know, putting words or phrases or sentences, whatever comes to mind on a piece of paper, and keep going back to it and evolving it and enhancing it, I think you will get there. You will get there. And there is no magic number. I have 3 mantras. You may have 5. Somebody may have 6. Somebody may have 2. Who knows? Right?
What what takes you and what excites you and motivates you and drives you. But I think just digging in, and it does take lot of time to reflect. Lot of time to, you know, sometimes it's too much. I have to kind of stop that tape in my head, keep going and going. Yeah. But it's you you need to kind of, you know, when our kids were little I have 2 daughters. They were little. They would come back from school, and we would say, it is now do nothing time. Mhmm. No TV, no homework, no games, nothing.
It's do nothing time. Just sit and just think through your day, what happened, you know, how did you react or act, or how did you behave here or there in your own head. You don't have to share with us. But it's just reflection time, right, kind of thing. And I think we are in this speeded, you know, life that we are always running from one thing to another. We just don't give ourselves that time to reflect. I I feel sometimes I agree.
I think this is definitely an ex a a a reflection exercise, for sure. I think that's a that's really a great way to describe how to do this is to put yourself through a bit of a, of a, a self reflection of sorts and decide what's most important to you and what your guiding principles are, and and start there and and try not to, overthink it. Exactly. Right? It doesn't have to be anything. Like, my I have 7 core values.
Some people have 3. Like, it doesn't have to be a certain set number or a certain thing. It does like you said, it doesn't have to be words. It could be, you know, phrases, whatever. Or maybe you start with 2 or 3 just to say, yeah. You know, these things are important to me and I'm gonna reflect on these, and I'm gonna challenge myself each day against these core values to see how I did.
Like you said, with your kids, you know, maybe just take a little bit of time each day and, and try to be introspective a little bit and think to yourself. Yeah. Okay. How did today go? What could have gone better? What should I have done? So would you say, cause I, I try to do this and I, I, I spend time in kind of meditation each day. Mhmm. What are the challenges that you see with this process and then being consistent with living by a set of core values?
Yeah. I think I mean, it's, again, slowing down. Right? We we are just in on this. I sometimes feel on that gerbil on that wheel. You know? We just don't get off. Work work to home, home to work, right, kind of thing.
Having that discipline I mean, after so many years of working, now I have, you know, boundaries and discipline on myself that after 6, 6:30, I'm not gonna touch my work phone till next day morning unless I'm expecting something or there is a something urgent project or things going on. Right? Similarly, when I'm at work, I'm not gonna keep checking my home email or personal email or reply to them or anything. Right? So having those boundaries to for yourself, discipline on yourself. Right?
Where you wherever you are, you know, be there. Be peasant and totally there. Right? And and, I mean, I do totally do not believe in multitasking. I don't think multitasking even exists, or our brain can even take multitasking. When you are doing multiple things at the same time, you're going in and out of different things. You're not fully present. You're not 100% there. Right?
So for last many years now, I have I was actually in a leadership course where they, you know, gave us an exercise, which made it clear we were doing multiple things at the time same time and messing up every single thing. You know? Not none of those things came out correct or right. So, you know, I'm not a big believer of that where you are, you stay focused there. You do do things there. And, also, living with your core values, you have to keep keep asking these questions to yourself.
Am I living up to my core values? Is this the right decision to make? Or is this just a easy way out? You know? Because I don't want to con you know, confront somebody, or I don't want to stand up and speak up. Is that a easy way out, or are you really living up to your values? Right? And about consistency, you mentioned I think that's the it's a easy everybody thinks, oh, consistency. Yes. But when you start to implement, it's the toughest thing to do.
Mhmm. Because, you know, context changes, people change, environment change. Right? So what you did last time is not you you can't implement that same thing this time. Right? Consistency is not doing the same thing every time. It's doing the right thing every time. Right? But the context is different. Environment is different. People are different.
But I must say, Tom, that with time, you know, as you keep doing this thing over and over again and you have seen many different scenarios and many different situations, things do become easier. Because now you have seen not exactly the same situation, but similar situation. Not exactly the same context, but close. Right? So it becomes easier as you practice it more and more and hold yourself to your core values. I I mean, I couldn't agree more.
And I love I think we have a really good quote that's gonna come out of this. And you said consistency isn't doing the same thing all the time. It's doing the right thing. That's true. Consistency is when you can make the right decisions. And I think that's why it's so important to be in touch with these, with these values. Because that's, what's going to help you in that decision making process. So I think this is, this is such a great conversation. Like, can we shift a little bit too?
Because as I'm thinking, I I wanna get this, I wanna get your advice for MSLs and even MSL leaders, just in in what you see they you know, maybe what they can do better in this day and age as you look because you see a lot and you're in touch with a lot of different, you know, being involved with MAPS and going to all of these these these, these conferences and being a part of such a large company. You see so much. So what's your advice to MSLs and MSL leaders these days?
Yeah. So I would say, first of all, for MSL leaders, you know, my hats off to them that because during pandemic, right, it was hot. Everybody's job was hot. Right? But for them, who external facing jobs, right, MSL leaders, how they handled those scientific exchanges and information getting to HCPs when everything was shut down. Right? So first of all, my hats off to them.
I'm sure they were asking those questions to themselves that, oh, you know, they had to motivate themselves, especially when everything around them was shutting off. And it's we none of us had seen that situation before. None of us knew that how to kind of survive or work in a pandemic because we hadn't seen it for last 100 years. Right? So I I think I'm sure they were asking these questions to themselves. What motivates me? How you know, what makes me keep going in these jobs?
But I hope they were also asking, what are my core values? Am I living up to my core values? Am I doing right by my team? Right? But in future or in these times, one thing I would say is that pandemic was, yes, once in 100 years thing, but we could see it, its impact, or how medically we under understood it's a pandemic. It's infectious thing. You know, contagious. It's causing all that stuff or whatever.
But now the changes that are happening in MSL's world or in medical affairs, actually, honestly, we see little bit above the surface, but a huge change is under the surface. What I mean by that is generative AI. Right? I mean, platforms, technology, social media. And during pandemic, HCPs learned that we don't need to meet with MSLs or even for that matter, Salesforce all the time. We can still get answers to our questions. We can go to a platform. We can search for our answers.
We can get it when we need it and how we need it. Right? And, also, keeping in mind that more and more of our HCPs are going to be millennials or younger. Right. Right? And they they they're tech technology savvy like nobody. Right? They are just so tech savvy. They know how to find information, where to go and, you know, do the work. So my my request humble request to MSR leaders would be, are you in tune with what changes are coming up?
Because, I mean, again, I'm speaking it on my own behalf and not anybody else. We're gonna see changes that we haven't even imagined Mhmm. Or thought about, you know, with generative AI and other things. I mean, less than 5 years, and the roles will look very different. How SCPs get information will look very different in there. So are we in line with those changes? Am I, you know, change agent?
I am get am I getting my teams ready for those changes so that when that wave comes, we are ready to, you know, stand up and and take those changes and think about, though, that how we are going to go and, you know, handle those changes. Right? So especially for leaders, it it it's it changes the name of the game. Yeah. And what about MSLs? What what advice do you have for MSLs?
So I think for MSLs, you know, every time change comes, I've I've learned that one lesson in my life, especially during my Novo Nordisk time, you know, time in Novo Nordisk when the changes were happening, company was growing, like, exponentially, is that whenever there is a change, you can see it as a challenge or you can see it as opportunity. Right?
So MSRs who will see opportunities in these changes, who will really embrace generative AI, who will embrace different rules of engagement going forward, who will bounce back from, you know, these changes and these setbacks in their mind, I think will be successful as compared to MS adults who will resist these changes, who will not, you know, really go and say, okay. I need to, you know, have different rules of engagement, different ways of working.
And I think with with all these changes coming and easier said than done. Right? That, oh, you know, embrace change, see the opportunity, and, you know, generative AI and all that stuff. But I think in those changing times, chain chain very transformative changes of ways of working, core values will become even more important. They will become even more important. You know? MSLs will have to find their own mantras and their own why to do the important work they do every single day.
You know, why do I go out and do this work? You know, what what does it, you know, do for me? You know, what drives me? I think those mantras for MSLs will become even more important. Totally agree. Yeah. Renu, you were awesome. This was, like, the fastest 30 something minutes that we've we've had. So I I appreciate you and all your insights. This was really great. I learned a lot, and I will I look forward to seeing you at MAPS. Yes. Same here. Same here.
Yes. Looking forward to meeting all, you know, our colleagues and networking and, of course, learning and growing. Right? Absolutely. Well, thank you guys for joining us. Always appreciate your support. If you got value out of this, please share it with your friends and your colleagues. And as always, we appreciate you. So we'll see you next time.
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