Wyatt Cenac on Blazing Saddles

this story. He's he was the first kind of famous entertainment person that I became pals with way back when when he shared stuff you should know with John Hodgman and said you might like is John when they were working on the Daily Show together, and John got in touch with Josh and I and said, let's all go to lunch next time he come to New York. We went to New York and Josh and I and uh, John and Whyatt all had lunch together. And it was a very big deal to us. And I told why

It about this and what that meant to me. Um, kind of that that we felt like we had arrived a little bit. And UM, I don't think why It had any idea that that meant something to us. So it was kind of funny to talk about. But we've seen each other off on on over the years and done some pretty fun stuff together, but it's been a minute, so it was great to get why it in here.

He was Originally he was one of the first guests I had on my last way back when, UM, but it was always hard to kind of track him down. But here we are, three years in, I finally get whyatt in here. We had a really long, great conversation about his awesome underseeing show on HBO Problem Areas and what he was trying to do there. We really got

into it with Problem Areas. We talked a little bit about King of the Hill when he was a writer for that uh TV show, which was kind of cool because I somehow had never talked to White about King of the Hill. And we eventually got around to Blazing

Saddles after an hour plus of great conversation. So Blazing Saddles was his pick one of the great comedies of all time, one of the great subversive comedies of all time as well, and we talk a lot about that in the role that it played back then and can still play today as far as subverting racism in some very fun and interesting ways. So it was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. And here we go with the wonderful and charming and funny whyatts sanak on blazing saddles?

How are you doing? I'm all right, yeah, I'm still getting used to this whole the world now exists on laptops. I said, things are about to be fine, right as your adjusting hopefully. I uh, yeah. I got the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, which, yeah, has been an interesting experience because the day I got it was the day that they recalled fifteen million doses because of the like batch problem, and then um, and then yesterday obviously there was the

news of six people getting blood clots. So I really feel like, in terms of vaccines, I could have chosen. I'm really getting all the all the things that would have me worried. I'm they're getting front loaded, right, So yeah, let's get Did you have a choice, Actually I didn't. It was a strange thing in New York there, like there was just one day where the governor decided, on like a Tuesday, that he was going to open up the vaccine availability to anyone like thirty and older, and

the week before it had been fifty and older. And as you know, I'm I'm thirty and a half and I so as soon as he made that announcement, I just happened to see it and I immediately called my local pharmacy and they were like, sure, come in on Friday, and uh so I was just like, I it wasn't even a thing of oh, let me go and check whatever the website. I was just like, no, just call the pharmacy and texted everybody I knew, like as though there were some sort of gold rush, and just like

call your pharmus, say and so h yeah. So that was that was how I wound up doing it. But I thought I was going to get Maderna. That's what I got, yeah, And so it was a little disappointed. And when I got there, because everyone I know has

gotten Maderna. And it seemed like even when I would go on social media and I see on Instagram everyone be posting photos of their vaccine cards like Maderna, and so Maderna seemed like, you know, it was the the jet kids of of of vaccines, like everyone's flying Jet Blue to Cancoon. Johnson and Johnson started to feel more and more like spirit airlines. Right, I think most of my friends got viser so far, and I'm kind of

an outlier. Oh wow, that's interesting. So maybe it's just kind of where you are and what they've got in your area. I was gonna say, yeah, is that are those regional friends or is that across the country. I think most of my friends here in Atlanta got viser. I feel like, and and my wife family and I got MODERNA And I don't know anyone here that got

Johnson and Johnson, so wow, who knows. Yeah, No, it's a it's a very it's an interesting it's an interesting thing, and it's I hope that it makes people more curious about like medicine and like science in general. But like

I I just know for myself. I think when I was starting to feel a little bit of that like sort of fear of missing out that I somehow got the the you know, grocery store brand vaccine, I started looking up the different things on the CDC as far as like not even the efficacy of the vaccine, but just who it got tested on, how many people it tested on, and in some in some ways I start to feel a little more comfortable with the Johnson Johnson

vaccine because even the demographics of people that they had done trials on was more diverse than than it was for Maderna and Fiser, and that I when we were making problem areas, we've done a thing about just the way medicines get tested and how there more often than not tested, primarily tested and engineered primarily for white men first and then everyone else. And so that's why you tend to see women continually have worse side effects for

any medicine, because they're very rarely tested with them in mind. Yeah, I saw that episode. Well, thank you. Let's uh yeah, I can't I can't really repeat any stats to you because it's been a long time. But it was great, man, I mean that was on my us to talk about anyway, and uh, it was so good man, it was really great. I mean I love the I love the way it was styled, and just the the intro and the set and how you did that little animated pieces, and it

just felt like like people from sort of our generation. Um, it felt it kind of was like what I always hoped a stuff you should know show was going to be like a sort of electric company for adults, and we you know, we missed the mark. But you nailed it. Man. I thought it was good how you how you jumped

around between a lot of issues. But in that season one, you know, how you had the police thread and you handled that in a way that I just thought was so thoughtful and um reasonable, and it was the kind of thing I wanted people who needed to see that to see it, because I was like, here's a guy that's like I think could really get through with the way you were approaching it and um, you know how it is though, I mean, unfortunately the people that are

watching you probably aren't the people that need to be seeing that in the first place. True, but you you never know. I mean, I feel like there's a there's the interesting thing, and I feel I I don't think that our show did it the best, but I feel like we maybe get credit for at least starting a conversation on it, or bringing not starting a conversation, but bringing a conversation to television. And that was the episode around police abolition. And it's interesting now is people have

that conversation more and more. I think what I appreciated about the show was the idea that Okay, yeah, we can talk about these things, and maybe maybe most of the audience will be the echo chamber. But even in the echo chamber, they may not be aware of something like police abolition or aware of something like a civilian

complaint review board. And if they're not, perhaps if they have that to add to their vocabulary, they can start saying, Hey, why doesn't our city have this thing, Why don't we have social workers that go out with police officers and partner and let's redefine safety as something like that that can go hand in hand um with actual like care and compassion approaches and so I so in that way, and then yeah, the hope outside the echo chamber was that you did have those people who were like, yeah,

I'll be honest, I don't believe in anything you stand for, but you've made me think. And when we made the show are I the building that we made the show in, we were on the fifth floor, and on the fourth floor was actually the police union, the NYPDS, UH like the line Officers union, and so there was very little interaction.

But like the head of the New York Police Union is really like a very fiery troll who just like goes on Fox News all the time and it's just really a ship ster um and I always was like, oh am I going to run into this guy on

the elevator and never did. But one of the security guys who worked the building was like a longtime police officer, and he would sometimes stop me in the elevator where it was just like the two of us, and I'd be like, I watched your show and a part of me was just like, are you about to stop this elevator and hit me or you know, like hit me about the ease with a telephone book and he'd be like, yeah, you know, I didn't agree with all of it, but

I like what you're doing and yeah, like you're making some good points there, and it was just kind of like, Okay, yeah, you're not the person that I would have expected to engage in this conversation. And I feel like you you you know, but I feel like I'm I'm maybe cracking

through the the armor there a little bit. And totally, man, I mean you could tell that you just took such great care and it was so thoughtful and how you tried to source conversations with different kinds of people and it wasn't just the familiar talking points and let's hear only from kind of one side. Like you were. You were bringing in people and having like real conversations around it, and I think, I mean, that's the only way to do it if you're gonna make any headway. So I

just loved it. And then beyond that, the policing stuff just you know, it was just you had stuff about you know, mosquitoes and space traveling and dogs eating chicken bones, and it was just I just love the variety of But all I thought it was great. How How was it working with HBO? Was that cool? Um? It was interesting,

It was it was. I'm appreciative. But at the same time, when I look at the experience, we had to make so much with so little, and not just from like a budgetary standpoint, but the moment that production officially started, we I think started in September of I guess that would have been, and they were like, you are premiering April of and go and from from starting up from scratch, Yeah,

from hiring. We had started slowly hiring some people in August, but we didn't have a full staff until sometime in September. And then in that first season, for every for every policing story that we shot, we were only budgeted and calendared for two days for each shoot, and so when I think about the stories we were able to kind of like get into total two days of shooting, it's truly a testament to the hard work of everybody at

the show. And also it's also this unfortunate thing that like, oh, we shouldn't have been locked into a like you have to premiere April at this time. Really should have given us the time as though we were making a documentary where it's like, Okay, take the time and take the resources to really get it right or get it to

where you want it to be. Because is I think there are certain things when I think about the show, and especially that first season, there there were certain story things that I wanted to do, but because of the schedule, we never had the ability to do. And I think about some of those things now where I'm like, oh, part of the conversations that we're having right now, I wonder if those things would have added to some of

those conversations, you know, in a better way. Like when I think again about like the abolition stuff and just the idea of like defunding the police, I remember I'd had this hope and thought that by the end of the season, I'd wanted to do this thing that by the end of the season we would actually start our own police force, because I'd start it to learn about

how certain communities actually created their own police forces. And in New York, for example, UH, where we had our offices, there was a police force that was created specifically to serve that population, which was which is a population that's predominantly Asian and Asian American, and so they were able to kind of like through the NYPD, there's a way in which you can sort of create your own police force and you get your own police cars and your

own officers, and so I and there are also in Brooklyn, I believe in the Hasidic community they have a similar thing.

And so I was kind of I became fascinated with that, but thinking about it with this idea of like, well, could we do that at and then as a police force, could we then also get government funding to get one of those UH military m wrap vehicles because they're the I believe the I can't remember the exact name of it, but there's an office in d C that's whole focus is like the office of like Budgetary waste Management or it's like the o m B or the Office of

Budgetary Management or something like that. They have a podcast, Um did they really do? But they did a whole thing about how they basically set themselves up to get uh, military grade equipment from these like horrible kind of like tax incentives and things that are created where you know, you ask why police departments get like SWAT get these huge like military vehicles, It's because they are incentivized through

these deals that the federal government has given them. And so this Office of of Budget Management had done that to expose it, and they were like, I think they got like a rocket launcher and they and so I was like, oh, could we do that? Could we start? But in my head I was like, could we start our own police force? Could we get an M wrap?

And then in redefining what policing could be, the idea was, could we paint the M wrap into something that seemed not aggressive and then it rather than fill it with police officers, fill it with social workers, fill it with and basically have it as like a mobile kind of

like emergency response unit. And so if you do need the person who has to physically subdue somebody, that person is in the car too, but there are just as many social workers, mental health experts, you know, they're all these like even like E M T s and it's and so it's basically like a voltron of like risks of response that you could then be like, this is

what our police force looks like. It's this big vehicle, but in it it's like, Okay, we got the call, like there's someone in mental distress, and you can be like, okay, uh, you know, Rick, you're gonna sit this one out. We don't need cops on this one. We're gonna go. We're gonna go with Dr Johansen here, who's gonna just kind of talk to do some talk therapy. Do you know

Dave Hill the comedian. Yes, have you seen the stuff he's painting where he's taking like Dave, you know, really talented at everything, but he's he's now taking like axes and stuff and he paints he's really beautiful flowers and sunflowers and stuff all over him in these cool patterns and it's really gorgeous. And the stormtrooper helmets and axes and hatchets and stuff like you could get Dave to

paint it up with all these beautiful sunflowers. Yeah, and just then send the team in exactly and then people are like, oh, what's that weird, what's that weird pretty tank doing. It's like, no, it's just here to help. It's you know, even instead of having cops do those weird like viral videos where they shoot baskets with kids or whatever right right in the truck, you can also just have like some you know, some stuffy, some stuffy

looking professor type. Their whole thing is like they come out and they have a top hat or they you know, have a hoop skirt on, and then they go and they you know, do some sweet sweet moves on a basketball court and they go viral and there a city employee and they go viral that way. Oh man, that would have been great. Yeah. I could see HBO getting down with that too. I'm surprised they didn't. Well, I think again, it was the it was the amount of

time I think we I wished. I wished when we had the show that we had that the network maybe had a little more faith in us as opposed to I think they I feel as though they didn't necessarily trust what this show was and what it was going to be, and perhaps also didn't trust me, and so I think they were very skittish about everything, and I think in their head they were like, well, we'll lock you to the schedule and thereby like you have to

deliver something, which the irony being there are plenty of people on that network who signed really lucrative deals to make things that have never been made, and it's like, oh, wait a minute, you paid that person tens of millions of dollars to deliver something for you and they never did it right, and you're not paying me anywhere near that. But I'm the I'm the one who is seen as

the risk. Yeah. That's a shame too, because usually, and I've even heard this with HBO that like, if it's a smaller show that they won't give much money to, they'll at least leave you alone, you know, And and

they do that. I think it depends on, you know, the executives that you have and the relationship you have with those executives, and so I think in that regard, um, Yeah, I know people who have great relationships with executives, and I know on the West Coast they are really good about I just kind of like trusting the creative voices and giving them the space and ultimately, you know, you

do have to earn those things. And I think it at at the point at which I had gotten to HBO, I had hoped and would have liked to have believed that I had earned that at that point, that I had made enough stuff that had done well or had you know, had had a good critical reception, that I had at least earned the respect to kind of like, okay, give let's give space to actually make the best thing as opposed to trying to, uh you know, kind of put as many constraints on this thing, uh and see

see if they can see if they can spin it into something. With season two any different season two. The main difference in season to you was when it came to shooting all of the education stories. We had four days instead of two days. We're able to get a couple more days. The challenge, the schedule was still the same. We're still kind of locked into a schedule, the challenge

with both policing and with education as subjects. And this again is something where I feel like, unfortunately we were kind of between a rock and a hard place them It's one thing to say, Okay, I want to I want to go talk to people about police brutality. There are people who will talk to you about that. If you want to talk to people about like the failings of a school, their parents and students who will talk

to you about that. Where you come up against roadblocks with police departments and schools and they are incredibly skittish, they are they're incredibly guarded, and two crack through that. It takes a lot of time and it really impacted our abilities to tell stories because we would have situations in both seasons we had it where we had situations where there were police departments and school districts that had agreed to sit down with us. We booked flights and

then they said no, never mind. Wow. Disappointing it is, and it's unfortunate because the stories we wanted to tell, we're stories where it was like, these are about these kind of partnerships and relationships that exist with communities and these institutions and right to not be a part of that conversation and to be that guarded about it to us, like I get, okay, not everybody wants to be on camera, but to be that guarded kind of places puts a

window to what these communities must feel that like, okay, even the things that you're supposed to technically be proud of in terms of the work you're doing, because it wasn't like we were going to the police department or the school that was like oh, this is the school that you know just beats children, or this is the

you weren't Michael Moore walking in there. No, And with all these places, they were places where it was a thing of like, Okay, this school district has you know, a program that's actually speaking to something that is supposed to be you know, whether it's like an alternative to criminalizing student. It's like, oh, okay, yeah, we want to talk about that. We want to talk about the work you're doing. It's like, oh no, we don't want to

talk about it. Or police departments, you know, I remember there was one police department in Cincinnati that the work that they were doing was one that was much more of a public private partnership where the community worked with the police to create programs and things to help kind

of like curb crime in their neighborhoods. And so, you know, one of the things was the community was saying like, oh, there's this park that there's often a lot of crime in this park and the park is overrun with trash and there's no lawn maintenance and there are all these trees.

Maybe we could clean up the park. And that's what they did, and it was like oh okay, yeah, and then they saw crime statistics went down and it was like oh right, okay, and that and when and with that story, we got to Cincinnati and the Cincinnati Police Department we landed and they decided once we got there they didn't want to talk to us. And it was like why, Like, this is what you like, this is what you're doing, and it may not be perfect, but it seems like if you're as proud of it as

you claim to be, then talk about it. And the irony being that I think uh Vice had done a piece earlier that year with that same police department where the police department was showing off more of the kind of like more of the aggressive things they were doing. Then it was weird where it's like, oh, you'll show off the things that you think make you look like, you know, a tough guy. Yeah, but those are the things that keep getting you into trouble. Yeah, it's so weird.

It's such a closed I mean, skittish is the tamest way to say it. It's um trying to break through too. I mean, it's it's just so such a closed system I imagine, I mean, would you do once you got there, once you were there and you were denied, just try and find a story. So we talked to everybody else involved, although the cops did tell some people not to talk to us, so it wasn't even that they had They

were like, you know, we're not going to talk. They tried to convince community members not to talk to us, and a couple of community members didn't talk to us as a result, and I think uninvited us from an

event they were doing. So it was it was tough and and so but we talked to everyone else that we could with the story, and and there was a a community meeting that the police were going to be at, and so we went to that and figured we'd film that and if possible, try to just see if we could get the chief of police to chat with us

on camera for a moment. But it all also became part of the story where it was just like, what does it say when these cops are this like afraid to talk about what it is that they do like that's a problem and so um so yeah, so it it I think added to the story in this kind of uh in a roundabout way, but it I feel like it would have been nice to have gotten the the entire story. And I think with that one, ultimately we also had to go back and get one interview

with a police officer, a retired police officer. I think the best we were able to do as far as getting any cop on the record was to get a retired cop. So, um yeah, who could talk about Cincinnati and the history of policing and Cincinnati. Um, but yeah, it's really it's a very unfortunate thing. And I think you see it now even with like the way that policing and that kind of like that blue line exists where you know, you see even the events of the

last week. Oftentimes retired police officers have less of a problem saying like hey, that's not good police work. And yet the police officers who are still working and are still walking a beat are just like closed miles and it's kind of like, well, yeah, it's never gonna change if you all just immediately rather than call out bullshit, you all just immediately kind of like huddle together and

rally behind the person who clearly did something wrong. Yeah, and it's it's I mean, that's one of the most frustrating parts because if you want your image changed, like you could actively be a part of that without selling out or whatever, like you could you know, like they don't want their image to be that, but they won't do anything to let their image not be that. Right, And it's and that's what's so strange is that weird,

that weird thing. And I think again when I think about what I had been thinking about with problem area, is as far as like that the sort of dream idea of like, well, what if we made our own

police force? Within that, some of that too was looking at there was an episode that we didn't do that I've been fast needed with the story about police uniforms and just how you know that idea that the clothes make a person and that there in the past there were police departments that decided to quote unquote soften their images and they started switching their uniforms to things that

were a little more professional looking. Where there was one, I believe in California where the police officers war like blazers and instead of having like a hard badge. The badge was like a patch on their on their jackets

and little things. The story and it's all anecdotal, but the story goes that when they did that, there became a little bit of a shift of the types of people who were signing up for the police academy, and it was people who like had more of a kind of like social work background, or was people who were coming out of like the seminary and and so. And it's all anecdotal, but they it may have been who

the department was trying to recruit. It may have been like, oh, yeah, I like, I like an outfit with a snappy blazer um. But then apparently they they dropped it after a while. It seemed to be successful for a while, and then I guess they dropped it after a while because there

were complaints of police brutality, but it was different. It was brutality against police officers because people didn't feel threatened by these guys who had like I think they even had like pocket protectors like it, like they had pens and ships. So I think it was oh, they they became too the the image got like, no, that's a

teacher and I can go fight a teacher. I have no idea if that's if, if if those what the correlation as far as those instances of police brutality, as you know, it's also without knowing what those stories are, it's hard to say that, you know, is police brutality Just like I tried to arrest somebody and they kicked me, like yeah, versus like no, we were walking the beat

and then these kids started throwing eggs at us. Uh so yeah, but it but it I I found myself thinking about, you know, as we have a conversation around policing in this country, and it's the same conversation I think around something like education and also around something like healthcare and housing. We have only loosely defined what we

want these things to be. And because they're loose defined, it then winds up being the responsibility of the person who is in charge of that institution to define it, and they get to define what it is. And so that's why it then becomes that much easier for a police department to prioritize militarization over actual like crime prevention,

which we know isn't something that happens through policing. It's something that happens through putting those resources elsewhere into social services that can actually help people to get a better education, to get quality education, to get quality housing, to get quality employment. And so it's like, oh yeah, if you're getting to define it, you're never going to define something in a way that says, oh, you know what, maybe I am getting too much money and that money should

go elsewhere. And so I think with all these things, you know, you see it. I think even in this moment where we talk about health care, we've allowed private healthcare companies to define what health care should be, and there is no with all of these things. We have these umbrella terms, but we don't have umbrella definitions that are, Okay, you know what, policing should only be this, and it should and this is. This is the minimum of what policing should be, and this is the maximum of what

policing should be. And in the same way, we have no minimum for what we expect education to be. We like or a maximum, but definitely we have we've we have no definition of like this is this is what the base level of educational access every kid should have.

There's no definition, and so that's why it's so easy to find a school where textbooks are decades out of date, they have no resources too higher or retain teachers, and schools are crumbling because we haven't said, like, oh, you know what, every school should have structural updates every five years and that should just be a locked in thing, and every three years their textbooks need to be updated,

they need to be replaced. It's just automatic. Yeah, And instead what we do is we say, well, the students need to learn X, Y Z, like they need to prove this level of reading comprehension by this age, or we cut funding to this school, but we don't say, well, wait a minute, if that school doesn't have enough teachers and yeah, and when we talk about like things like classroom size, again we know like classrooms should probably be twelve kids maximum, and yeah, we say like, well, this

school in this neighborhood, they don't have the funding, so thirty kids are going to be in a classroom. Tough shit. And it's just like, no, there should be a minimum. And the moment your classroom goes over whatever fifteen kids, it's like, Okay, that school needs more money, and that's what we gotta do, and we just gotta pump more money into that school so that they can make a

new class for that group of kids. And but we don't define these things, and we just say like, oh, yeah, a bad school is like you know, it's a bad school, and but we don't say, like, right, but what is the floor for what every school should be? So yeah, yeah, and and parents, uh, just know what the bad schools are so you can do everything you can to try

and get your kid to a different one. Yeah, I mean yeah in New York, you see that here because there's all of what they call like the high performing schools, and there's you know, all of this competition to get into these schools. And on the one hand, I feel like the city looks at that and they wear it as a badge of honor, of like, look at how many parents compete to get their kids into these schools and how many kids are competing every year to get

into these schools. When to me, what it says is like, what does it say about the rest of your schools that people are so desperate to get out of those to just get into these handful of schools. Yeah? Yeah, I mean I was a public school kid. My parents were both public school teachers. So this is like a situation I've been intimately involved with my whole life just through their eyes. Uh, interesting stuff. And you know what,

everyone listening. The Problem Areas is still on HBO Max, So if you didn't get a chance to see it, please do. It's very funny. I mean we're talking about all this like sort of heavy stuff, but it's also a very funny show. I feel like we're having a fun conversation about it. Of course, I don't know if you want to talk about it or not. We don't

have to. But I did see what happened with John Stewart coming out with his show The Problem, and uh, before I even saw what what you tweeted out, I was just like, right, like, seriously, that's that's the title of it. Yeah, well, in the title and at least by the description. The description is that it seems like it's a show that is going to each season focus on one issue. Right. Sounds familiar. So yeah, it sounds really familiar. And yeah, I tweeted something about it, and

I found it curious. I mean, I think what also to me struck me about it was that, uh, the executive who bought my show and who was the one who was you know, like, oh, I love this idea of looking at one topic over the course of a season. And you know, I think was the person who could you know, held my show's life in his hands, could use to renew my show or not? He when my show was up for renewal left HBO went to Apple

and is the exact over this show. And so I think, to me, that's what that's what feels a little fishy about it all, is that like, a wait a minute, the guy who bought my show also bought this show, and I think was the person who held a deciding vote on the life of my show, right, and then you know, just opted not to vote and left left the network. And then basically it's like, you know what, you know what a good idea for a show is a show that spends a season looking at one issue.

Uh yeah, I like that, and I should I should get a guy to host that show. Oh you know what, I'll get John and we gotta come up with a title for it. Right. That was where it was so egregious. It's like, are you kidding me? Yeah, it's just disappointing. And but also, and but you had that one great clip from your show where uh said, go ahead and quoted exactly because I don't want to just paraphrasees. Sure, there was a clip that we had had in the show and it was based off of this guy that

I had interviewed. Had he had talked about policing and he made a really uh just a really great statement about how you have to you know, he basically made like a really good statement about policing and just like what the expectations for police officers should be. And he was a he was a young black man, And so I cut back to studio where I was and I said, wow,

you know, what he said was really deep. But if there's one thing I've learned from being on television, if you want people to take something that a black person says seriously, you really need to have a white guy say basically the same thing right after. And I mean it was so perfect. At least you had had that

at your disposed, you know. Yeah. No, the one thing that I'm I'm grateful for that HBO probably isn't, is that I was able to hold on to the masters right my show and I have a very rudimentary understanding of Eye movie. Right. Oh that's great, man, Um, before we get into blazing settles, I did want to talk about one more part of your career because I know and this is something I've never talked to you about.

Like we've we've hung out like a number of times over the years, and for some reason, I never talked to you about King of the Hill and your years writing for King of the Hill, and I would just love to know a little bit about what that was like, because it's just such a beloved show and I know a lot of our listeners love it. Sure, it was a really it was an interesting experience because I think one it was my first job in television as like

a writer. It was was it? Really? Yeah? I Mean I'd had like jobs where I was a p A and stuff, but this was like my first, like a fish, Okay, you're you know, you're a TV writer. And I for me, I grew up in Texas and I grew up not too far from uh where Mike Judge went to college. And it's something that Mike and I have talked about where I when I was a kid, we would ride

our bikes over to his college campus. And my friends and I at the time were you know, really big into like g I Joe and army stuff, and so we would always like get our like little camouflage outfits and we tramped through there was like a little creek that went into like a sewer, and we kind of trumped through there at the edge of campus. Or we'd run around the campus on the weekends with water guns

and do like our you know, little army ship. And so it it was funny to think about the idea you that he was he may have been in school around the same time we were these idiot kids running around and just how like bizarre that that is to think about, like, how are you know just that we sort of walked the same the same grounds at different

times and had different experiences with it. And so in that way, for me working there, there was a strange sense of like, this show feels incredibly familiar to me because a lot of the references and things were things that I saw. I saw versions of that. There was the first episode when I started what season was that I came in in season seven, and so my first day on the job, they were doing an animatic screening. Um and for those who don't know what an animatic

screening is, look it up. I'm not going to teach. You know, it's basically before the but before an episode is fully animated, they do the audio track to rough animation, and so you see the shots, but you don't see full animation. Um, and so you get to kind of like see it half alive and you rewrite some things, you talk about different shots. And so my first day they were having an animal attic for this episode called

New Cowboy on the Block. And I remember the show runners were on vacation when I started, and Greg Daniels was in the office and so he was overseeing this animal attic screening. And the writer for the episode was a writer named Dean Young and Greg, who I didn't

know very well. You know, I just started and Greg was like, why don't you come into this antimatic And I was like okay, And I watched the animatic and the episode was this episode where h and Dallas Cowboy, a guy who played one year for the Dallas Cowboys Special Teams had moved onto the Block and as a result was seen as a god. And so I had that same thing happened when I was a kid. There was a special teams player who played one season with

the Cowboys. He played one season with the Bears and one season with the Cowboys, and he moved in, he moved onto our street, and he was like a god to the name, and it was like he didn't like, I don't know that he ever you know, I don't know that he ever saw any serious playing time. I mean, you know, two years of football and he was out and uh. But he was considered like this god on the street and people were like, oh my god, there's

a cowboy Dallas. Cowboy lives on our street. And you know, people puff their chests out in this way where it was like we like, this wasn't like a wealthy street by any means, but all of a sudden, everyone thought, like our property values just went up. And so there was this real sense of like, oh, yeah, this like this show. I can relate a lot to what this show is talking about, despite the fact that, like, these

characters don't look like me or my family. These a lot of these stories I I feel a connection to. And so I think there was something for me that was really I I really connected with um and and it was a big fan of Mike, and so it was like really great. Mike at the time lived in Austin, and so he wasn't a part of the day to day. Um. But every summer we would take a writer's trip to Austin, and that was really cool because it was an opportunity

to get to spend a little time with Mike. And for a lot of the writers, they weren't from Texas. There were a handful of us. There was me, there was a writer, Christie Stratton, um and another I think Jim do Trieve was from Texas as well, or definitely went to school in Texas. Um. Yeah, Jim was from Texas. Uh So, yeah, there was just a handful when I was there that were from Texas. Oh, and then there was a guy jb was also from Texas. And so there was just a handful of like writers who grew

up or spent considerable time in Texas. And so for the other writers, it became this opportunity where we'd all go down there and obviously, you know, we'd eat well and drink well, but also go on little field trips and so people it was it was kind of great.

And I don't know if other shows do this, but you know, the like different writers would find different things to do, Like some writers would go to like a church singles group really and yeah, and they would just do it and it was all with the idea that like they wanted to just do research and look for stories and yeah, and it was it really was like a weirdly journalistic approach to it where I remember there

was an episode. There's an episode that I I had pitched that got written after I left, and it was it was. It was one of those things where as much as I there was a lot that I got from the show, and then there was also some terrible ship that I dealt with at the show, uh, which constantly being reminded that I was the only black writer and that I was only there because the network had created a diversity initiative. My salary wasn't part of the

show's budget. It was something it was something that Fox would pay for to encourage shows to hire people of color. And I was constantly reminded of that by my boss um and so uh, and I think he was reminding me of it in a way he thought it was a good thing, and to me, it's like, no, you're

telling me I'm not like everybody else. And so but in when I left the year I left, one of the things I had become fascinated with was roller derby, and there was a big roller derby scene that had popped up in Texas and an Austin specifically, and I had had this idea that lu Anne uh joined a roller derby team and that potentially Peggy might want to join too, because it fits right into Peggy's wheelhouse of

like everything she would want to do. That either she joins or she decides she wants to be a coach and becomes an incredibly aggressive roller derby coach. Um. But I but I had become fascinated with it, and I was like, oh, you know, there's roller derby and we should go check it out. And so uh that year, I remember they didn't want me to do that episode.

I pitched it, and I think they initially weren't into it and then got into it and another and then they gave it to another writer to to write and I was kind of like, oh, that's I was really excited about that. And so but I'm glad. I'm still glad that they made the episode, um, and glad that the story found the found a life somewhere. Was it a good episode or were you kind of like, I

don't remember. I think when I left the show. Admittedly I left the show, and I as much as I loved the show, it, I left because I wanted to

do other things. But I also left because I didn't feel particularly comfortable there and uh and so I think when I left, there was a little bit of me that it became tough to watch the show afterwards, and uh and so I didn't really watch I recently, NPR pop Culture Happy Hour had done an episode recently where they talked about King of the Hill and they were just kind of they had a guest on our journalist named Sir Riah McDonald and they were all talking about

King of the Hill and they were talking about how they felt the characters would have voted, and it was an interesting conversation to hear some fans talk about it, and I was kind of I just started thinking about it, and so I was like, you know what I I this is the story I would pitch, and so, you know, with the knowledge of the characters I had I pitched. I just basically went on Twitter and I was like, this is what I think would happen. And I just kind of went and I laid out my pitch for

a King of the Hill episode. Obviously Mike has final say, but I was like, this is what I think it would look like. And it's you know, Hank is somewhere between a you know, he's a conservative, he's somewhere between a conservative and a libertarian and uh, and so he may feel like he has to vote his party. And I think the way I kind of laid it out is like he's a little torn. He's not crazy about it, but he's he's a little torn. I have to read

the tweets again, but basic, basically he gets. The episode starts with him catching coronavirus from Bill, who was asymptomatic but just got Hank sick. And so Hank is in the garage where he has to now stay for you know,

until he's until he's safe again. And while in the garage, he sees Bobby acting really rude, and Bobby is saying like, oh, he's acting like Trump and that he sees Trump as the comedian in chief and that you know, like, oh yeah, people like Trump does all these terrible things, and he says they're a joke, and like, you know, he says he's kidding, and so Bobby is sort of emulating this behavior, and upon seeing that, Uh, it gets to a point

where Bobby does something that that offends Connie and his offense the Connie and Uh, Hank sees that, and he's like, you know what, screw this, I'm not going to vote. Like I like, I don't want to vote for this party, and I don't like the idea of a politician being a comedian. I still don't forgive Nixon for going on laughing like um. But he's like, I can't, I can't

do it. And then one night in the garage, he has a fever dream where he's visited by h Ann Richards and and Richards reminds him that, like I was governor of Texas and I was a Democrat, and like, it's not always about party there, you know, there are people across party lines who do things that are the in the best interest of the people. And so that's what ultimately convinces Hank and he decides to vote for Biden, but he won't tell anyone except Bobby, who he swears

to secrecy. Uh, you know, Bobby start he has to at some point teach Bobby that, like what Trump is doing is in comedy, and you shouldn't expect your politicians to be comedians. You should expect them to be the people who enact what you as as the public want.

Bobby sees that, you know, he apologized to Connie. Uh. Peggy and Lewin have a storyline where while all this is going on, because it's in the middle of a pandemic, they head to the megalo mart where they're going to they're trying to load up on toilet paper like everybody else. But when they get there, they see that there's a

strike happening. Because all the people at the megalo mart are like, hey, we are we deserve a raise, like we're you know, front facing in the you know, are at risk and people are getting sick who work here and very much echoing what's going on what was going on with like Whole Foods workers and Amazon workers, where it's like, oh, yeah, all these people are getting sick and they don't have healthcare. And so Peggy and Lunn see this and then wind up getting involved in the strike.

And Peggy, you know, Peggy sees herself as the norma ray for this group. Whether they see it is another story, but Peggy has kind of like gone, you know, full full on board. And so even in at the moment when Hank has decided he's not going to vote, like Peggy gets very upset and it's like you have to vote, like this is you know, uh like because she sees herself now is this labor organizer? And uh. And so

that's so that was kind of like the episode. And then I and then I kind of talked about how the other guys would have voted, and I said, well, you know, Dale's off the grid, so or as off the grid as a guy who's owns a house that is in his wife, is in his wife's name and paid for by his wife. Um, he's but he wouldn't vote. Uh.

And then Boom Howard. I think I wrote out Boom Howard's vote in his voice where he was just kind of like, uh, you know, talking about Bengal bad knees man, talking about football man, talking about you know, Bengal legalize it man, um. And so he's voting for anybody who will legalize marijuana. Uh. And then I said that Bill would get arrested as part of the January six insurrection only because he had been catfished there for love by Dale and that Dale had cat fished him with some

woman who had been involved in Q and On. And you know, Bill is not really paying attention to what Q and on is. He's just kind of like this lady loves me and like she's you know, and she told me to meet her in Washington, d C. And so, dude, I want to see that episode. Thank you. Yeah, a fair number of people wanted to also. They echoed that, and what wound up being funny. I I tweeted all that, and then it was actually a very sweet thing. I I also tweeted an image that the animators had drawn.

There was an l A Times article about the show when I was working there, and they had had the animators draw the writing staff and so we were all drawn in that style in the writer's room, and so I kind of tweeted out my you know, this was the episode in response to that pop culture happy our episode, and I tweeted all out, and then at the end of it had put this illustration, Uh, in part because I think as people were reading it, I don't know that people realized that I had worked for the show,

and they were just like, oh, wow, like you you seem to know a lot about this show, and it was like and so I tweeted that and it was something that was very sweet. Was one of the writers. Uh had seen it, and he had responded his his name is kid Boss, and he had responded that both a sense of like of you know, fond memories, but also in looking at the the image, a sense of embarrassment at the fact that it was this sea of white guys and a couple of white women and me

and Uh and Uh. And in his tweet, Uh said, uh he he it was. It was a very funny thing where I'm paraphrasing, but he was like, if this image, if there were a song to go with this image, and he linked to the song white Room. It was like, yeah, you're not wrong, and you know what, that song will follow me to a few more places. Oh man, that's great. You were my first sort of entertainment celebrity friend. Did you know that you and John? I didn't know that. Well wait, was it me and John or just me?

Well I meet you guys both on the same day. I know you don't remember this stuff because people only remember like meeting people that are more important than they are. Was it? It was the quiz was before that that that is what we wrote you into. It was, Uh, John got in touch with us, Josh and I about Jesus probably like eleven years ago, and said, my friend Wyatt Sinak uh told me about stuff you should know and said I would really like it and to give it a listen. And so I'm reaching I love I

love it, and I'm reaching out to you guys. I let's see if you want to have lunch next time you come to New York. And Josh and I were just like, oh my god, did you see that? Like White Sinek is listening to us and John Hodgens listening to us, and uh we met for lunch at Shopson's, you me and Josh and John, and that was our

first like meeting with someone in the entertainment. Like we were just very removed and still kind of our to be honest, but very removed from all of that and in our little room recording our show and just it was a big deal. Man. It meant a lot to us that y'all listened and y'all reached out and uh took us to lunch, and uh so sort of twelve

eleven years later, I just wanted to say thanks. So it was a big deal to us, and it sort of felt like, you know, we had arrived in a certain way for two guys who sort of accidentally fell into this career as a non professional you know, broadcasters and comedian types. And it was a big deal. And and so much fruit has been born from the relationship with John two of him introducing me to people. You

know how John is, He's just such a connector. And uh, but you were, you were the conduit man, so and and and I'm not surprised you don't remember, but it was a big deal. No, not that you say it. I remember us going to shops and I like, that was you. I think that's the I've only been the shops since maybe or that iteration of shops s AND's. I think i'd only been to it. That might have been my first time there. Maybe I went one other time and then I've since been to the new iteration

of it. But yeah, so, uh no, I mean one, I enjoyed listening to the podcast so much, and I really became this a weird little evangelist for it, where I was like, oh my god, you should listen to this episode that listen to them talk about zombies like this is so fascinating. Well that was huge, man, it was a big deal. And so it's to meet you guys.

I think I was enamored with what you all were doing and how you know, you talked about my show, But I feel like when I listened to your show, what was great was that you were taking all of these ideas that I people kind of like no more as concept and digging into them in ways that we're thoughtful and approachable to a listener, where yeah, it became a really enjoyable thing to consume, whether you're in a car driving and listening, or you're on the train and

you got your headphones on, or you're just sitting in your apartment and you want to be entertained, and it I I feel like it it was that the the interplay between both of you was always very fun and engaging, and it felt like it felt like you were sitting and eaves dropping in on a wonderful conversation that you would walk away from it and be able to go someplace else and be like, hey, do you want to know something I just like And you kind of walk

away looking like a genius and it was just like, yeah, I know all this information. It's like, where did you get it? I just overheard these two chaps having a lovely conversation about it. Well, thanks man Um, and you were as a result, you were one of the first people I wanted to get on movie Crush, and I tried to a few years ago, and I bugged you a little bit, and I think it was just not the right time, And looking back, it might have been when you are probably making problem areas, so it was

probably terrible timing. But I'm glad to finally get you on. Uh. And when you pick Blazing Saddles, I was really excited because this was a very big movie for me, especially in college with me and my friends. We I mean, I don't keep count of how many times I've seen specific movies, but this one is up there along with Spinal Tap as far as comedies go, um seeing them, and you know the Christopher Guest all of his stuff. Really seeing movies probably dozens of times, and uh, I

remember seeing it, believe it or not. This is the first movie I saw in the theater. When I was three, my parents took me to a drive in a Blazing Saddles and it's one of my first memories in life is and I only remember a couple of things. I remember Cleveland Little when he first rode into town with that sweet, badass suede outfit. Yeah, the Gucci outfit in that cool horse. And I remember Mango punching out the horse.

And those are only two things I remember from being like three and a half years old or whatever when this movie came out. But um, what I mean, let's get into it. Man, what what does this mean movie to you? It's a lot, It's it's it's an interesting movie because I feel like it's one of those movies

that I like in rewatching it. I've watched a bunch myself, and I rewatched it in anticipation for our conversation, And there's a part of it where you watch it and it's just like the storyline is almost secondary or tertiary two all of these just ridiculous scenes. But also it plays, it plays a role in it. And I think one thing I've always appreciated about the film is when you watch it, there is there's a real like there's a

real difficulty level to doing a movie like that. That and I think, I think if you were to look at probably reviews of that time, people would say, like the plots thin Ye. What's interesting is like you're setting things up that you're calling back later throughout the movie. You're weaving things in, You're making choices where you have like you know, the executioner that's outside of Headley Lamar's office,

where it's like you've got a medieval style executioner Middle Ages. Yeah, and like what a weird like what a weird thought process of like this has nothing to do with the overall story, but we want to do this joke, and so we have to justify like this joke somehow where you have a plot thing happening and then you just hear a noise, like and then it's just like the noise is really just to go and tell this one

executioner joke, which isn't a cheap joke. You've still got to get a set and do all these things, and it's like you've got that joke and then it's almost a throwaway, but it like shows up a little bit later. But the idea that like, when I think about crafting a movie like that, like the idea that something that seems like a throwaway you then justify later when you

have to. Like it comes back towards the end of the movie again when there's another execution happening, and I think the part of me that knows how these things get made, it's like, oh, however many days this shoot was.

That's a set and you had to you had to get that set for a certain number of days, and you've got to justify using that set, and like and just how like, I don't know, there's just something about it that feels like, oh, the there's an execution that's that's going on there that's like so weirdly thoughtful, where everything is connected and also seems so unconnected at the

same time. And I just remember watching it and thinking like, this movie seems so like wonderful in its zaney nous and but also so intelligent in how it's in how it seems chaotic. And I always thought like, oh, one day I would love to make my own version of a Blazing Saddles, Like that's always been the thing of like, Oh, when I think of a satire, I think of that movie.

And when I think of Cleveland Little and just the role he's playing as well, where it's like he's taking he's basically Bugs Bunny but doing something that and and I'd be curious if like this was the thought process when they were crafting it. But you know, so many of those old cartoon characters, whether it's Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse, their origins are in minstrelsy and the you know, the white gloves are part of that kind of like

minstrel uh, that minstrel wardrobe. And that's interesting and that's where they that's where a lot of it comes from, the roots of it, are taking a lot of those minstrel shows and those characters, those characterizations and just putting them into animals. And so that's and that's oftentimes you would see when the characters wind up like in black face from time to time it's a little bit of a nod to that. But the gloves were that's a

holdover from that. And yeah, and so there's something that's interesting about then, like, oh, now you have cleve on little basically taking and at one point even going as far as doing like a Bugs Bunny bit where and taking all of that and now actually taking something that has its origins and minstrelsy where you had white people in black face and now you've sort of taken some of those movements and the and the characterizations and you

put them into animals, and then you've built something out of that. And then here is a black person taking all of that and using that to point at and make fun of racism in in this world. And so there was something about it that I was that I found like very subversive, whether intentionally or unintentionally, about his

performance and what was going on there. And so I think, to me it was both like, oh, here's this really funny movie, but also one where when I think about things like representation, it is one where it is, you know, in a nineteen seventies way, trying to be representative and talk about racism and even talk about sexism, but you know, doing it in a way that I think today probably

feels antiquated. But you know, forty over forty five years ago, I think to look at it through that lens, it's like, holy fuck, Like what like, like you're really doing something and doing it in a way where you're using comedy to do it. I was, yeah, it's it's It's always meant a lot to me in that regard. Yeah, I mean what struck me today it was how quickly it subverts that the racist thing right out of the gate. Like the very first scene is on the railroad, when um,

what's the guy's name? I love him? He was in the fletched movie, Slim Pickens. No, he's great to Burton Gilliam when he's he's trying to get them to sing, singing and seeing the good old slave song, and it subverts it right away. Cleveland Little exerts his power and start singing. You know, some get their kicks from Champagne. And it's just immediately it sets the tone for this movie of what's going to happen, which is Cleveland Little is is probably the smartest guy in the movie. At

least he and Jim probably are are equals. And these guys are all idiots, and we're gonna and we're gonna show that right out of the gate. And then those guys start singing the Camptown Lady and dancing around like

a much morons. And then and that just set that just sets the tone right away, and you know what kind of and you know, so much of this was probably lost on me when I was certainly when I was three, but when I was nineteen and in college It's a movie that the more you watch it over the years that not only do you find new jokes somehow you still find new jokes, but you really get the subversion of the whole thing more and more as

it ages. I think, yeah, No, I think it's it's an interesting one to watch in that way, And I think to what you're talking about, I think of another There's another thing I think about, especially with Cleveland Little's character, where I think about the story of Brear Rabbit, which was a story that I was always fascinated with as a kid, and it was, you know, that idea of it's the trickster and Cleveland Little was the trickster, and

the trickster. You know, brear Rabbit comes from African folklore and the stories of like a Nanti the spider who was the trickster, and originally breat Rabbit stories were stories that enslaved people told each other, and brear Rabbit was the embodiment of the enslaved person who got one over on either the overseer brear Fox or the plantation master

brear Bear. And so there's something that I think even in that when I think about, like Cleveland Little's character, it falls in that same line of like Tricksters where I think of a Nazi the spider brear Rabbit and totally I never really thought about that and that, but that moment in particular where it's like, you want me to do this thing, so I'll pretend to be dumb so I get you to do the thing, and it was just like, oh yeah, there's some thing that's so

brilliant about Oh yeah, I'll let you show yourself how

stupid you are. And I just thought it was really such a smart movie and how it did those things, and even I think about, you know, you mentioned that like Barton Jim are kind of the two smartest people in the room, and then I feel like Madeline Kahn's character kind of gets there that like she starts off as like she she starts off as a smart person, but one who is willing to kind of be Upawn in this in Hedley's game, and then at some point besides oh no, I don't want to be a part

of any of this, and I think, you know, she kind of becomes this third character. Like the movie ends with Barton Jim kind of writing off in the distance, and I think if it were to be rewritten today, I feel like there would probably be a little more to Madeleine Khan's journey where you know she where she also joins them at the end, well, she probably wants to. I mean that was one of the funniest parts of

the whole her whole sequences. You know, she sent into to romance him and leave him, and none of that ever makes sense. It's such a thin sort of premise anyway, and and she's just kind of cooled and cold and cool to him. But you know, then she sleeps with him overnight and she's just like she's fallen for him. She's like she doesn't want him to leave, she's trying

to keep him there, and she completely turns against Edley Lamar. Yeah, there's like an interesting sort of like the radical the radicalization of certain people in this movie where it's like you think about her because by the end, yeah, she's like, uh, singing to the Nazis to get the stuff fighting, and

so it's like she's kind of been radicalized. Mongo has been rad ecalized because he has he's never untreated as nice and so there is this weird like wave of like people seeing oh wait a minute, there's maybe a different way to do this, and even by the end they've radicalized the whole town where it's like Okay, yeah, you like you see that we can work together and to do this, like it's it's you know, it's a very sort of uh, building blocks kind of thing, but

it is that thing of like, how are we going to build a fake town in overnight? And it's like, well, I got all the Chinese rail road workers and enslaved black people to come and they're and they're gonna help. And the townspeople were like uh, and then it's like they're gonna help and they're gonna save you. But to do this, you're also going to have to give up being racists and and give them some land and give

them some land. And there's something that's interesting in this, like in that conversation that's like it's almost so rudimentary and how simple it is, but it is that thing of like, yeah, that's that's the core of what it is, is like we're never gonna stop this unless we all

work together. But in working together, it also means that like everyone's going to have to get like their fair share when it's all over, and it's it's almost like it's almost this weird, beautiful message in an in a movie that also has a scene that is just three minutes of people farting NonStop. Right, Yeah, the scene when you were talking about the trickster thing. I think that is so evident in the And you know that the setup of the movie is very it's all very funny.

I mean, joke for joke per minute. It may be one of the funniest movies ever made. And the first thirty minutes is certainly funny. But the h I feel like it really heats up when Bart finally comes to town and the town welcomes him with a big ceremony and um he the beraar rabbit thing is most evident in the scene where he takes himself hostage. You know they all pull the guns on. I mean, he immediately

is like, well, here's what I have to do. I have to go into this sort of uh, typical you know, typical black man mode that they will recognize and uh they can identify with that, because like that's the only thing they're gonna recognize and identify with. And uh and then you know, he plays it so perfectly. Cleveland Little is so great in this, and when he finally gets behind closed doors in the office, he's like, you're baby, you are so talented and they are so dumb. I

mean they say that a few times. Gene Hackman calls him morons. He calls them dumb. I Harvey Corman is the other sort of smart one because he knows. Oh yeah, what I say, Gene Hackman. Yeah, that would have been interesting cast. You know, John Wayne was originally they sent that to John Wayne. That doesn't seem like it would be the same movie. It doesn't, and especially considering now you know what we know about John Wayne's politics right at the time, even and it was he apparently liked

the script a lot. They said he thought it was too blue and he there's he just there's no way he got the There's no way he got it. Not that seems so bizarre. I doubt if he understood it. I cannot imagine him in that role. No, because because Gene Wilder and uh and Cleveland Little were such a great team. And I know, and I'm sure you know that Richard Pryor, one of the writers, was gonna play Jim as well. But we're going to play bart And

they didn't do it. I mean, I've heard a few different excuses on why they didn't do that, but I mean, I love Cleveland Little, but I totally could have seen Richard Young, Richard Pryor in this movie. I could have.

But it's interesting because there's a part of me that m it would have been interesting to see Prior and Wilder just given the then real they would kind of create a comedy duo as But I feel like there's also something about Cleveland Little that I feel like, I he wasn't somebody that I thought of as a comedic actor in that way, and he's he has this kind of leading man quality that like I could see him playing a superspy or you know, see him playing like

a lawyers someone, someone with real gravitas, and it's interesting to then see him bring that into this role that is comic. But also I think he he leans on his serious acting as well in a way that I don't know if it makes it and it makes it funnier than if Prior would have done it, But I think it just makes it more interesting to me in a way, and in the same way that I think of like Jeffrey Wright, to me is one of the funniest actors when given comedic things, but is such a

great just actor in general. But there are moments where there was something I saw him do and it was just like a short video that I think was for like the New York Times or something like that, where he's he's in an airplane and he's narrating it and he's just sitting on an airplane, and his ability as an actor is just like, Oh, he's such a great serious actor. And then there are these moments for him to be funny, and I think it's almost because it's

because you forget that he's funny. It hits you like this gut punch in a way that's like, oh, yeah, this is I expect Richard prior to be funny, So I think I would anticipate any scene he walks into that he's gonna be funny, and I'm almost I'm almost more shocked when he's serious. And when I think about like a movie like Jojo Dancer, like you're almost you're

more impressed at him being serious in those moments. And in the same way someone who is a really great serious and stage actor, to see them be funny, it's a it hits you in this different way, and and not every serious actor can pull off comedy in the same way that not every comedian can pull off serious stuff. Yeah, yeah,

for sure. It also hit me today watching the Townspeople and just how much it sort of echoes what we've seen during the Trump years of these people that are determined to act against their own self interests just to hang on to racism and just to be able to say the N word to somebody. And it's that that grievance politics that we've seen so much of lately. It's like, but you're acting against yourself interests politically, and like like,

do you understand what you're doing? And they don't care as long as that as long as they can say bad things about people, like that's what matters more. Yeah, and that it's it is. It's a very it is a very good kind of like uh analogous thing that

think about with the Trump era. Yeah, it's funny because as you say that, Yeah, there's a lot of it where it does feel like I think about the one uh, the one woman who brings brings them some dinner that comes to Bart and Jim and yeah, like earlier in the movie had yelled at Barton called him a nigger, and then later shows like shows up at the jail and brings him a pie, and it's like, I'm sorry about that from before, and also here's this pie, and

thank you. But then also, don't tell anybody about this. And it's that it's that weird. It's the weird identity politics that I feel like exist. We often think about identity politics extending to like anyone who has, you know, who doesn't fit what we consider the sort of the

conservative American pie norm whatever. But I feel like there's the identity politics that exist of the people who, like you said, vote against their own interests or feel they have to live up to some to some version of what a like white person from the South or a rural area supposed to be. And I think about there's UH. There's a filmmaker. Her name's Elvira Lynde and she made this She made this show for Vice and it was

an interesting show. It was a show about these two trans Brooklyn nights who decide to take a cross country trip together and one of one of the people in the UH in the story, and I'm trying to remember their names. I feel like one's name one. One person was named Twizz. I think it was like Twizz and Tuck. I think is the name of it, if if somebody wanted to go look it up. I think it's called

Twiz and Tuck. I think it's Twizz is from a very rural area and decides to go meet up with the guy that took them to prom when they were still presenting as as female. And so they go to this incredibly rural place and they meet this guy and you know, he looks like he could be one of the like a cousin of the Duck dynasty guys like uh, you know, beards not as long, but he's got the camo baseball cap that's that's curled, and he's wearing sunglasses.

And they meet this guy and his family and the guy is a little throne now seeing you know, a male version of his prom date. And they talk and stuff.

But then you discover in this conversation and I'm talking the the guy has kids and one of his kids is gender nonconforming, and they're supportive, and it's and it's like and it's such a strange thing where it's kind of like and yet and I'm sure there are people in this community who are supportive of this kid, and yet this community may have voted overwhelmingly against that kid's interests despite the fact that they've seen that kid in school plays and you know, at church or wherever, and

they embrace the kid. And it's that weird thing of like the identity politics of well, I still have to come off as this like conservative that can't like actually say, well, hold on a minute. Maybe it doesn't make sense for us to be closed minded and these and maybe this touches our doorstep a little closer than we realize those things. I mean, it kind of goes back to it goes back to my King of the Hill episode, my fan fition episode of hay Thank feeling like he has to

vote party over everything else. And but it is that it's but it was funny when I think about that

scene emblazing saddles. It's very much that to to your point, there are so many of those people who have who voted for Trump and said like, oh, you know, build a wall, and uh, you know, we don't want gay people to have rights, and and yet probably have people in their lives who are immigrants who they may or may not know their documentation like some may be documented, some may be undocumented or in their lives and they're like, well that person is different, right, Well that's what you

hear a lot is but like you know, they're they're an undocumented Mexican. But like, man, they're really good on the job with us, and you know, really good coworker. Yeah. It's like, well, you don't have to caveat any of that, no, and you just say, he's a really good coworker. He's a really good coworker. And also, if he's such a good coworker, shouldn't he have the same rights as the rest of his co workers and shouldn't have access to

the same rights and privileges. And if he's a good if he's such a good worker, couldn't you then agree that probably the vast majority of people in the same situation as him are good people and good workers and deserving of those same rights, rather than he's the outlier. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh. I love. I mean you mentioned the scene earlier with

the old lady in the pie um. I love how he handles her and how he handles everybody in the town with just such a plum Like right after the scene where they basically are where he gets welcome to

town and they all pull their guns on him. He hoodwinks him, goes in the office, and it shows him the next day on the job, he's just sort of whistling and he's putting up his wanted signs, and you know when the lady comes, she comes back, she leaves the pie and then comes back and says, of course you'll have the good judgment to not tell anyone we talked. And he's like, oh, yes, of course, man, Like he's

just such an affable guy to everybody. And and Jim wakes up in that jail celle a cell and immediately realizes that, like this is a friend for him, like their pals. Right out of the gate. The first thing Bart does before he goes out on on the job is gets stoned, which, like I remember that scene a hundred times of them smoking the joint, but it never really occurred to me that, like that's before he goes out on his first day sort of walking the town.

He's like, I'm just gonna smoke this joint and then

just kind of walk around in a good mood. Yeah. Yeah, it's I mean, it's interesting even that, I mean there's something that's there's there's there's an interesting comment that's being made about the criminal justice system and yeah, in general, like the carce Rol system that we have where yeah, into Bart, Jim isn't isn't irredeemable and neither is Mango, and it's you know, they both can have they both can find redemption if they're willing to do the work

and like Mango just pawn in Game of Life. Yeah, Mango and exactly, And that's the thing and Mango, that's I feel like that line breaks me every time, but it is it's it's uh, but there's something that's interesting about Yeah, perhaps if more cops smoked a joint before they walked to beat, they might they might approach things from more of a de escalation, uh situation, or just like oh right, maybe maybe my job isn't even get involved in half of these things and that like oh right, yeah,

we don't have to imprison people like yeah, Jim is like Jim's crime is that Jim was drunk, and it's like, right, yeah, the drunk tank, Yeah, that's maybe not a crime. Maybe that's maybe let me get to get to know this guy and understand and even in that conversation, he's like, you don't eat and you're just gonna drink, right, that's a quick way to die. And just that idea that like, oh, the concern, Like that's like like their friendship is forged

in a place of concern, totally care. And that's what also makes it so like beautiful and you see like a real like even by the end where it's like, okay, well what are we gonna do? Well, whatever we do, why don't we go together and venture? Man? I love the ending. I mean, that's so great that he took him along where you go in Nowhere special. I always wanted to go there, and then you know they ride

their horses in and getting that cattle back. No. I feel like that's what's also so great about that movie, is like they take everything and then subvert it and it's just okay, they're riding off in the sunset, but then they get in the Cadillac and then they zoom out and you see where they are in context of like it's a back lot and like all those things. And I think something that I really appreciate about the film.

Something I really appreciate about the film that um, I feel like you don't see as much in comedy today comedy movies is mel Brooks really uses the camera as

a comedian as well. And I feel like so often when you watch a comedy film, it's all shot in sort of shot reverse shot close ups, and it's people feeding lines off camera where it's you know, I think a lot of people, I think a lot of people saw what Adam McKay did with Anchorman, and they focused purely on and the sort of improvised alt takes on things and carried that but didn't take into account Oh no, Adam McKay also tried to build shots where you saw

you had wide shots where there were jokes, and I think mel Brooks does that, and it's and and so I think, yeah, one thing that I feel like a lot of comedies they don't, I don't see as much. They tend to just focus on those kind of like, Okay, the cameras on, the cameras on Wyatt, and he sets up Chuck for a joke, and now Chuck has a

witty come back. But also the director then says, okay, now say this, and Chuck says the next thing, and then the next thing, and you'll say fifteen different versions of a joke, and then they'll take it into the edit and it's like, Okay, whatever the funniest one is.

And a lot of calm any filmmaking today, I think, relies on that without often doing the other thing that I feel like Blazing Saddles does really well, which is choreographing a comedic moment, right, yeah, yeah, And and obviously I mean they had I think four other right, mel Brooks and Richard Pryor and I think three other writers. And I remember hearing stories from mel Brooks saying how writing this movie was the most funny had in his career.

In that writer's room, he said, all they did was laugh, And he said that Richard was just invaluable because he was their sort of barometer on what they could say and what they couldn't say as far as, you know, sort of racially upsetting things. And Richard probably was like, you gotta say that stuff, man, He's like, because those people would have said that stuff, and if you don't, it's just it's phony. And so he sort of gave them permission to go where they went, I think. But

apparently prior didn't write much of that stuff. He wrote a bunch of the Mango scenes and some like I think with people here that Richard Pryor wrote this, they would think like, oh, well, he wrote all the black jokes because that was just the way it had to be.

And apparently that just wasn't the case. Yeah. I remember reading that he really loved the character of Mango, and I think Mongo just Upawn in the Game of Life is like that's his verbatim, and um, yeah, I feel like I had watched a documentary where they talked about him doing that, and you know, I think Prior was very coked up at the time, and so I think because I know that one story was that Warner Brothers

said they couldn't ensure him because of his coke habinot. Yeah, I heard that too, and there are a couple of movie UH studios that I didn't want to ensure him because of cocaine. But but I could see him. I feel like in some documentary or a book that I read that talked about his experience there, it seemed like he was acting out a lot of things, and Uh may have been kind of like playing different parts, right, improvising I think probably like improvising with mel Brooks where

you have two performers who are also writing. Uh, and so I could imagine, yeah that just that interplay was probably had to be a lot of fun for them. Um yeah, that's uh, it's I feel like that version of writing can be. It's really fun, especially if you've got someone who can record all of it and be the person at the keyboard to be like, Okay, yes, all right, I'll put that in and then the magic is happening. Yeah, and then we'll find a way to make all this makes sense. Uh. And then I mean

there's just so many good dumb jokes. I mean it's a movie that's uh, it's relentless in its dedication to the joke. Whether and so many great like I'm a big fan of dumb jokes and wordplay and whether it's Higgins from Magnum p I saying, you know, we want to extend to you a Laurel and Hardy handshake, Like that's just such a good old school sort of busch Belt comedy that you know, Like that's just like mel Brooks signature stuff and so much of the Governor stuff

that you know, mel Brooks is the governor. So much of that stuff was just great dumb jokes one after the other. Yeah, no, I uh, And you may know this, but I I was. I was looking up something about the movie and his name Lopato Maine. Do you know this where that name comes from? No, Lpato Maine is

apparently the name of a French performer. And I don't remember what what era this French performer was around, but their whole thing was that they were a performer that would just get on stage and fart, and so they were just a perscaremative, which feels very much like h Brand. Yeah. Well he has another good line too that I never noticed when um, I think it's when they had the

little below paddles. Is that what they're called with the rubber band in the ball and we're talking about kind of swindling the Native Americans out of their land, and mel Brooks says something about, you know, we gotta get busy, gentlemen, we gotta protect our phony bologny jobs. And I never really noticed that line until today. And that's such a great subversive line just about government and like, you know, these sort of white dudes in charge, we're protect our

phony blogny jobs. So great. Yeah, uh, I'm trying to. I mean, it's so easy just to let's say your favorite lines over and over. Just the relationship between Jim and Bart. It was just so great right out of the gate. Uh you know, since you were my guests and I'm your host, what are your pleasures? What do you like to do? Oh? I don't know, play chess? Screw let's let's play chess. And then what's a dazzling urban nite like you doing in a rustic setting like this.

There's just so many great lines, really is and then everything madelon Con does, like how she I mean, just one of my favorite comedians of all time on screen, and how she came up with that, I mean, it's a ridiculous German accent, and then that sort of speech impediment that she had just to throw that on top of it is such a fun, weird choice, I think, yeah,

and that everyone went with it. Where then later there's a letter that's right that same like accent with the sort of Barbara Walters kind of Uh yeah, it's saying a cross between Bbara Walters uh and and German and uh yeah, no it's it's it was great. It's funny watching her. I I found myself. She I've seen. I've definitely seen like a lot of movies that she's done.

But like, I think about her and I think about Kate McKinnon in a similar way as far as their ability to kind of like take a character and both make it ridiculous, but also you can tell that they're fully enjoying the ridiculousness of it. Yeah, they're having a good time. Yeah, And that just translates in this way that's like they're both in it and not in it at the same time, like winking at it while they're

doing it, and uh, yeah, it's uh yeah, she's she's great. Uh. And then there was another one of the subversive lines that I've never really noticed before was after Candy Gram from Mango. After he outsmarts Mango with the candy Gram and he comes back and it's the next day, and and Mongo is tied up in Gene Wilders telling him how great that was, and he goes, yeah, the hardest part was inventing the candy gram, he said, he said, but I know I'm not going to get credit for that. Yeah,

I never noticed that line before. Yeah, it's so great. It really was. No, that was a very funny. Yeah, it's there are just so many yeah things that kind of it's it's the perfect movie that like demands second and third watch because there's so many things that happened here that like you catch and then you missed the

thing that happens right underneath. Yeah. Did you know the HBO Max had a it's not on there now, but they ran it last summer and had a had a lady on at the beginning um talking about putting it into the proper perspective as a like a disclaimer, almost putting it in cultural perspective of today. And it was just like a two minute thing that this lady did. Apparently they did the same thing with Gone with the Wind.

I think it might have been the same lady. And I went to look for it today and of course

they it wouldn't even on HBO Max anymore. But I think that's a really interesting thing to do, uh, because you know, this is one of those movies where half the people will say like, oh, you couldn't make that movie today, And the conversation around that is interesting to me because what I learned online from talking to movie crushers about this is to some people you can't make that movie today means they're almost sad because you can't

say awful things anymore. And when I say you couldn't make that movie today, I don't mean it that way at all. I mean this kind of comedy and satire is so hard to you successfully, and the conversation around that stuff today has so little nuanced that That's why I think it would be hard to make today. Yeah, I mean I think it would be difficult, but I

still think you could do it. It's just I think you'd have to pay more things off, Like there's definitely towards the end, like like I think I feel like in the movie, the movie really tried to tell a black and white story, but then also had Native Americans, gay people, women, Asian Asians, Jews, Germans, everybody. And I think what's tough is that the the sort of cruelty that's enacted on some of those groups, there's never a

there's never a moment to really sit with it. Like the first thing in the movie, you know, a Chinese railroad, a Chinese rail road worker collapses and is just kind of met with a slur and the very first thing that happens, Yeah, and there's never like there's it just kind of is there and goes away, and I think like that's the thing that like, oh, yeah, you can't get away with that anymore, like you've got you've gotta have some comment or something about that, or even at

the end of the film, it's very much you know, these dancers are being played as very flamboyantly gay, and it feels like, Okay, you're making fun of a a caricature of someone. Yeah, was funny at that time because for the people who actually lived in that reality, many of them couldn't feel comfortable or safe being vocal about who they were. And so I feel like it's those things where it's like, okay, yeah, those those are the areas that really are like, yeah, you can't do those things.

They pay off the Bart stuff because he he wins in the end, and he wins everyone over and he is the smartest guy. But yeah, I know what you're saying. Although that that in sequence does have one of the funnier parts to me when uh, one of the big cowboy guys goes to beat up on one of the gay dancers and they kind of go behind the wall and then two seconds later they come on the other side of the wall and the guy's got his arm around him and he goes, well, you know, I'm parked

over by the commissary. Yeah, And I feel like in on some level that was maybe their their attempt to comment on on that, but it's yeah, I feel like there's you know, if you were going to make that movie again, I think you want a room where, if you're still going to do those scenes, you want that representation in the room to to sort of figure out and craft the best way to make those comments so that it's not so that no one can walk away thinking it's okay to just make an anti Asian slur

all right and then leave it there. Yeah, and that that's somehow funny, or that it's okay to uh say something homophobic, and and that you can just kind of like that there's no consequence for that. And so in those ways, I feel like, uh, yeah, that's the part of it where it's like, oh, you can't do that anymore. But it is interesting the way that these things get

explored and shared, And yeah, I don't know. I feel like the Disney cartoons when they when they were on DVD, Leonard Malton would do a disclaimer at the at the beginning of the DVDs, where I think it was a very similar thing where it's like, some of what you're about to see is old, you know, old stereotypes that uh, you know aren't don't fly today. And it's weird because I feel like with kids things, I have a different

feeling about it with kids things. And I saw this and I I tweeted about it, but I'm not I don't have enough of a Twitter following that like things really go viral in that way. But I tweeted because I had watched when the pandemic started, I watched old episodes of Scooby Doo and there are some very racist things in Scooby Doo that are just throwaway jokes, and in rewatching it, I found myself thinking, at the very

least with Scooby Doo or with those old cartoons. And I don't think they put a disclaimer on Scooby Doo, but it did feel like, you know, it wouldn't be that hard for that company to just animate a new a new bridge to get out to like to either cut that out of it and replace it with new, Like you could very easily cut audio and it's easy enough to like make animation kind of match that style. Yeah, that's just the beauty of animation. You can change it

later that. I feel like you could update something like Scooby Doo where it's purely children's entertainment, but it's also that thing that a parent is like, oh, I watched this and I want to watch it with my kid, and you know, and it's like, oh, yeah, you could maybe do that rather than make that moment for a kid for a kid in the parent if they're watching it together, hopefully they're watching it together that parent didn't

just park the kid in front of it. And it's like, and now Scooby and Shaggy are in Chinatown dressed in like clothes like or something. They're like turn of century clothes and they're doing like buck teeth and accents, and it's like, yeah, you don't need that, And you could very easily just animate a new twenty seconds and take some audio and like it's not like it's not like those storylines where that fucking strong to begin with, So

you're probably not going out the sanctity of of Scooby Doo. Yeah, Like, I feel like I feel like it would be easy to do that, Like, I feel like Tom and Jerry did. I didn't. I remember they did something where they just revoiced the the black woman who lived in the house or he worked in the house, and I felt like that didn't work. I feel like what you wanted is like, no, just reanimate a new scene where it's like the same, like you know, it's whatever. It's someone saying like Tom,

I'm leaving you in charge and whatever. Because it's also the like everything about this character is like even the visual of this character, you're evoking something, and so by changing the voice, it's not like not enough, it's you're still taking that kind of mammy character and you're just saying, oh, now she can sound like she's, uh, you know a lawyer from Atlanta, right who still dresses like a mammy. Alright, why listen, man, I know you gotta run. I think

we did blazing settles justice. I'd like to think we did. And I appreciate you coming on and being so genness with your time. Man, it's good to see. It's been a while. It's been a while. It's good to see you too. Your beard has grown much since I last year. It's kind of ridiculous. I'll next time I get to New York, I'll hit you up. Maybe we can have a drink or something. I would love that. And the next time I get to Atlanta, maybe we can go

to Fox Brothers. Oh, totally, man, anytime I'm ready. Yeah, or what's the other there's there's another place. I went to a gun show. Yeah, gun show is good. Uh. I'm thinking it closed down because the pandemic. That was actually the last restaurant I went to for my my birthday March last year. So oh, well, happy belated birthday, thanks man. Yeah this year, well, happy belated birthday to belated birthdays. Yeah, all right, thanks buddy, thank you. Take

care all right, everybody. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. This one was supersized. Why. It's a great guy. He's always got a lot to say, and he's always really interesting to have a conversation with. I Uh. I usually have these conversations with Wyatt sitting at a bar um sometimes just the two of us, which is really nice, but this time it was over zoomed. Unfortunately. I can't wait to get to New York and maybe see him again, because, like I said, in the show.

It's been a while since I've seen seen one of my old pals, so big thanks to Wyatt. I hope he did blazing saddles justice. I hope you guys got a lot out of his conversation about his career and especially with problem areas. Like I said, you can still watch it on HBO Max. It's a really really good show. And uh, if you missed it the first time around, I encourage you to go out and check it out now. Problem is on HBO Max. So thanks for listening, everyone,

and we'll see you next week. Movie Crash is produced and written by Charles Bryant and Meel Brown, edited and engineered by Seth Nicholas Johnson, and scored by Noel Brown here in our home studio at punksty Market, Atlanta, Georgia. For I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.