Paul Schneider on Cape Fear

better because you were from North Carolina. It's crazy how bad his is. Yeah, here's the thing. We'll go ahead and talk about the accent in Cape Fire right off the name. But I do want to talk about something else before we even talk about the movie. But the accent is something that I had to get over and reckon with over the years, and now I actually like it for it's sort of fun be movie quality. Yeah,

but it is by no means an authentic Southern accent. No. I couldn't get over it at the at the first time I saw it, I was I was so um like aggrieved as a Southerner, you know, I was like, you know, I was like a deal with us? Is that such a hard accent to get right? And the movies always way way way overdo it. And not just that, but every Southern you know, the default Southern character with a Southern accent in all media is an idiot. Yes,

you know, he's a clown. And obviously us and other people like us have a problem with that because we're Southern guys and we're we have fairly smart individuals, yeah with um with low self esteems, and we just want everybody to you know, we want to we want to place at the table spending your life defending this out in conversation. Do you like me too much? Yeah, it's a big thing because it's just like now, we're not all dump crackers. Can be very progressive, we can be

very intelligent. And then I try to give like literary examples to back up myself, and I can't remember anything. I'm like Faulkner, right, yeah, that's our guy, and there's like okay, and I'm like, you know, Wanta Matapeia County,

all the books. I might even say all the books. Oh, so before we get going on Cape Fear and Earnest, you just got finished shooting a motion picture in Louisiana and as I'm springing this on you, but is it something you can you can talk about or you gotta keep it under wraps um, Who fucking knows h I never get those emails. But it's it's enough there, you know, not unlike Cape Fear. It's a it's a it's a yeah production for blum House, and it kind of has

this great pulpy, kind of pulpy quality. You know. It's you know, it's sort of an action family adventure, but in essence, just like this one, it's a family that you know, has to deal with itself, um because of this sort of dangerous um you know, because you know, because of this dangerous incident that goes. Yeah, yeah, we don't want to give it anything away. You already spoiled it for me privately, And I was like, well, thanks a lot, man, I guess I don't need to see

it now. Yeah, of course I'm going to see it. But it sounds like a fun little thriller with some good twist and turns um a little little straw dogs

element to it, which is great, and it did. Watching Cape Fear yesterday, I kept thinking, I was like, well, Schidor just did a movie that's not completely unlike this, because they're some certain themes and cape fear that especially I get now more as a father and husband about them, whether it's right or wrong, the pressure a man might put on himself to be a protector, and and guys like us probably feeling fairly incapable like Nick Nulty was in this movie, of being the projector Yeah, I mean,

you know it. It's funny how the decisions that Sam has made kind of you know, kind of strip them of his power. And the fact that he married Lee, this very beautiful, very intelligent woman. Um, you know, she reminds him of this in these insidious sort of cutting ways all the way through Oh yeah, the film. And one thing that I um, one thing that I read was, you know, Scorsese was interested in making this if If.

In the re make, they pumped up the disintegration of the family and the deceit and the duplicitousness of the family and how much they tear each other apart. And in the in the DVD extras Blu Ray extras, they talked about how you know, they used Bernard Herman's score. Oh man, I know that Elmer Bernstein conducted and arranged, and I you know, I met Elmer Bernstein at in

film school and he came to visit. But what they did is they used some of the most, um like the heaviest, most dramatic pieces of Herman's score in the family scenes. In the family sequences, you know, not as Katie is coming after you know, coming after Sam with a pipe or you know, you know, is he you know, breaking into the house. It was in these moments of you know, there's this great moment where Danny Juliet Lewis she says, she's so good. Oh man, there's a whole

I mean, there's a whole movie crush on her. I don't know. I mean that's one of the great one of the great sort of I don't want to say kid performances, but like young adults performances, because she fits, she fits right into the movie. But she's doing something else that's insane. You know, she's like she's like, um, she's like an extremely well trained actor and a completely non actor all at the same time. Yeah, what are you saying about her? Though? I cut you off and

you had a relevant point about her. Oh so there was I was noticing last night when I watched it again, that you know, these juxtapositions between you know a lot, you know, what what's happening on you know, what's happening in the character of the narrative and what happens in the camera. So Danny says, I thought we were supposed to be relaxed now, and as as the camera is like charging towards her at a hundred miles an hour.

And yeah, you know, there's that scene at the dinner table when Sam is saying, you know, they hired Joe Don Baker as a private eye, and he's like, yeah, you know, I think this guy is really going to work out. You know, he seems gonna be really enjoying it, and then the phone rings and everyone. It's one of

my favorite moments. And Danny too, is the one. She's the one, the first one later in the movie, in the movie at the climax and that last amazing sequence that we'll get do in depth later, but uh, she's the first one that immediately has the instinct to try and manipulate his sexuality and his emotions right off the Batman. She's the first one that's like, you know, I thought we had this connection. Oh no, no, no, Jessica Lane talks about the connection, but she's talking about reading nexus.

Yeah right right, yeah, She's like, I read that thing, you know, like let's connect on that you know which part in Like right away, this girl is the one that's leading the charge while Dad's tied up outside and Jessica Lang is at first just understandably completely freaked out, and she uses language. It was something like he says something like, you know, did you read all of those parts? And she says, yeah, I read those parts as if they're they're talking about something that Lee and Sam don't

know about. Um. And it's like, in this weird way, she like curls under his wing to sort of to you know, to fool him, to to try to get, you know, find a chink in his armor. Um, and of course there's not one. It doesn't work. But but it's funny. Both of those women are so crafty, I would say, like cunning and crafty in the way that they are, you know, trying to to to beat Max. And the way Sam goes about it is like caveman. Yeah. And I don't mean that as a pejorative. I mean

like literally he's trying to smash his head with a rock. Yeah, that's the only thing he knows to do, because he just makes a series after series of missteps and dealing and trying to handle this is the husband, whether it's

like as the lawyer. Yeah, well yeah, and maybe, you know, maybe his journey in the story is to get back to a fun to be a fucking caveman and like sort of reclaim his monkey male nous, you know, and like yeah, because he certainly doesn't have that all the way through the movie, you know, No, And then uh,

Sam or not Sam? I can't remember Jessica Lange's character name, Yeah Lee Man that monologue at the end when she's change handcuffed to the thing and breaking down and saying the things that you know, will you just do those things to me and not her? It's it's like, I used I love this movie in college. We watched it a lot, and I saw it many many times back then that this is the first time I've seen it in many years, and certainly since I've been a father

and maybe even a husband. But that ship wrecked me this time scene Jessicaaling, it's so good. She should have been nominated I'm so mad that she did. Juliet Lewis was to her credit, which is great, nominated for an Oscar for Supporting Actress, and lost to Mercedes Rule for Fisher King, which is another favorite performance of mine. So it's really hard to and awards are all dumb anyway, but just the acting in this movie across the board

is just amazing. And she's sort of and Jessica Lank sort of pathetically pulls at the strap or not the strap, but like sort of the top of her shirt as this like kind of like pathetic or Loren like, please do this with the you know, and she kind of refers back to the time when she was putting on lipstick after she and Salmon made love and she was looking out at this you know, this blue screen Max Katie.

But I want to I want to talk about one thing that I was blown away by this when I saw it a couple months ago, and this time too, is the speed of the narrative. And I wrote this down. I mean, I you know, I paused and rewound and I wrote this all down. So this is what we know in six minutes. We know about the existence of Cape Fear being a dreamy dangerous place. We know that Max Katie has been released from prison, and he's not an idiot because he read all his books. You know that, Yeah, alread.

And we know that Danny relates more to Graciela the housekeeper than she does her mother or family. We know that Lee is a graphic designer who loves her dog more than her daughter. And in yeah, definitely, and in my opinion, you know, she the fact that her character or is this artsy smoker. To me, it also tells me that she doesn't want to be a wife or

mother anymore. Yeah. And then we set up Sam as a lawyer who traffics in a world of privilege and favors because he gets the judge to push the alimony hearing of Fred Thompson's daughter mh. And finally we get a taste of Katie in a small way, terrorizing the family at the movie theater watching Problem Child. Yeah, I mean one of the great scenes that silhouette man in those that'sh my bikini lighter, that big humorously fat cigar. Uh. There's so many and I don't know de Niro's really

as our most actors. And I'd love to get your perspective on this too. When it comes to picking props and wardrobe and stuff like that. I know that he is meticulous and known for like trying on d jackets until he finds the right one. Like what is that like for you as an actor when you get into that, Um, it really is. I mean it really depends on whether

or not you're Robert de Niro. Um, like having the opportunity to kinding the power to hopefully you have a director, um, hopefully of a director and a costume designer and a makeup department who's able to collaborate and kind of confident

enough to collaborate. And you know, sometimes you walk into a situation where they're you know, they're hemming and halland and they kind of want to give you a little bit of of room, but they basically have all your clothes picked out right, And for me, I just want someone to say like, hey, dude, um, you know this is what I've got picked out, So can we talk about this instead of kind of like letting you you know, kind of letting you go a little bit and coming

up with ideas that you know they're going to shut the door on. It's like just yeah, just fucking tell me. You know, they had this idea that actors are this artie FARTZI a lot who can't you know, who are too sensitive and can't take you know, can't take decisions or can't take Um yeah, I can't take notes. Um, but I just don't, you know, I don't feel that way. You know. If I feel like somebody is not going

to collaborate, I just won't do their movie. Um. But it it it's really hit or miss, depending on who you're working with. And it really sucks because most of the time they want they cast you because they want to, um, kind of dress you in the clothes of the movie they last saw you in. Oh interesting, because they cast you as that guy, right, And so I end up wearing the same brown shoes every fucking movie I do.

Really Yeah, But then you have people like Jane Campion, and all of a sudden, I'm like, you know, like in clothes I've never worn before or period obviously exactly, but who can see who can see past? You know, the last character you played is getting in that wardrobe. Is that a real important thing to you or is it just kind of part of everything? If it's specific enough, absolutely okay. Yeah, and if it's a period piece ship man, it like it does the acting for anything. Yeah, that's amazing.

And apparently he apparently DeNiro was like working out, you know, at night, and they shot all the stuff where he takes his shirt off towards the end of productions so he could be as Max cut yeah, lowest b m I or something. Dude, I remember seeing this in the theater. I think I probably did see in the theater in college. Um in that first reveal of him in the cell when he's got that long, slick back hair and his

body is just chiseled out of fucking stone. With those tattoos, man, and that back tattoo with that big cross, it's like intimidation overload right off the bat and just so effective. And it had to be that way and the and it was sort of like pre everyone has a tattoo, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, and for like the shocking shocking level of tattoos. Yeah yeah, and and for too like

X youth group, you know, church youth group kids. All those Bible verses were like extra but yeah, they hit me and you probably harder, just like the Exorcist hit me and you harder. You know whoa like this is this is really not what my mom wants me to

be near. Uh yeah, he was just crazy. Let's talk a little bit about and you know, we can jump all over the place, but I would like to talk a little bit about Scorsese's methods here and uh, just what a wild movie he made with the um with with the changing the film stock to the to the negative, and then these washes of color and then from negative back to color, and those sequences where it would just sort of flow and drift back and forth, and blue

screen and diopters and jump cuts and unmotivated camera and also everything is in it, like he really didn't hold anything back. Well, I was thinking to myself, like, this is a movie that celebrates the fact that it's a movie. I mean, it's a pulpy, over the top, neo noir cartoon. And if people watch it trying to you know, trying to watch like a super super serious, you know, tight you know, suspense thriller, well this isn't this isn't bad.

It's not super serious, you know, it's sort of like, yeah, it's not even reality tethered almost like I haven't here Somewhere in my notes it's a real movie movie. It's got this it's got this heightened sense of reality, and it doesn't feel like real life. It feels just off. It feels like a bad dream. Yeah. I mean in in the way that he when they do the strip search scene, you have these like sort of like Nazi

adjacent tattoos. You know, he's got these these thunderbolts that are kind of like Stormtrooper thunderbolts, and then these obviously the Bible Old Testament tattoos. And then he takes off his pants and he's wearing like silk bikini briefs the

d skin. That was such an interesting choice, you know, Like sometimes I talked to filmmakers and directors, you know, we're making something and I'm telling them, like, guys, let's go for broke, you know, like we can always take something out, we can't put anything in, Like let's put everything in um And obviously for this one, they put everything in. You know. He celebrates the fact that it's a it's a movie movie. And I mean I look at it the same way that I look at at

Lawrence Arabia. Like, to me, Lawrence Arabia as a cartoon. If I see it as a cartoon. I can really enjoy it if I'm picking through that, you know, if I've got Wikipedia open and I'm trying to fact check,

you know, it's just, yeah, it's not that. Um. I think like that that opening uh sequence where it shows him in prison getting released from prison, you know, he's got nobody coming for him, and that shot of him leaving the prison with that storm coming in the background and he walked straight up to camera and basically, you know, that's the film school one on one thing where they're like, don't ever do that shot where you it's such a

trophy like film student shot. But Scorsese did it, and you get the feeling it's just like he's laying it all out there right there with that shot. It's like, just buckle up everyone, because this is a monster movie and it's a little bit like this film I love called a Christmas Tale um uh, with kr Mastrianni and Katherine Denev and a whole bunch of other people. Um. And the guy are no depletion. I don't know how to say his last name, but that's what I think

it is. He he right off the bat, he uses every filmic technique almost if to you know, almost as if to completely sort of level you in terms of your expectations at the table. Yeah. So if I could, if I do everything within the first five minutes, then you can't sort of bit or a moan about anything. Yeah, you know, yeah, like you could get up and leave right now if this isn't your bag. Yeah exactly. This

is what we're gonna do here, everybody. And the differences is that these guys, you know, Freddie Francis obviously, but like these guys are doing this. You know, in film school they were like, make sure all your camera movements are motivated, you know, make sure you're lighting is natural, you know, like Sam and Lee are are Sam and Lee are having sex in that one scene and there's like the fire why are there fireworks? I don't know, Man, I thought the same thing. I never questioned it until

last night or yesterday afternoon when I watched it. But man, it looks awesome, that does I mean I had of stand that it's July fourth or whatever there's that scene, but it's not July four on that day, right, And where are they they're living in and I know they shot it in Florida, but this is um just the setting of this film, the sort of low country of

South Carolina. I know you're from the Carolinas, and I'm sure that and I know for a fact because we've talked about it, that that whole sort of low country outer banks see vibe is so appealing and so evocative and can be so creepy, and it's such a great setting for a movie like this totally. I mean, it's what obviously, it's what David Lynch locked onto in Velvet Um, but yeah, he I mean, these these guys are using all the tropes, but the fact that they know what

they're doing obviously Filma schoon mocker schuon mocker um legend. Yeah, like, I mean, I mean, these people are doing all the silly things, but it's just that they really know what they're doing. You know, they're doing all the silly things, and and they're the asked at it, so they're kind of like they know all the rules so they can break them kind of thing. Yeah, she really she's the editor.

For those of you who don't know, She's was scored Casey's editor for a long time and just a legend of the business and really had her work cut out for in this film, but also I imagine it was probably a lot of fun to edit this movie totally. I mean because because it's it's a fable m hm, and it doesn't you know, yeah, exactly, and I feel I mean exactly in the scene with Juliet Lewis yea,

which is fascinating. Now when we're when we're living in sort of like the me to me too moment, how do you how do you create those electric um, you know, upsetting Yeah, you know, physical sexual moments as an actor. Um.

I mean, obviously there are ways to do that. But when when I was watching the scene again where I mean the whole point of that of that scene, the whole the reason why it's so electric is that obviously de Niro didn't tell you, Juliet Louis he was going to put his thumb in her mouth and he didn't know, no man, And she talks about that. I mean, first of all, that to one of the most you know, it's like for me, it's like fift very um u um disturbing and also sort of as an actor, like

holy shit, how effective? Oh yeah, I mean that whole scene is I mean, it's one of the iconic scenes in movie history now, I think is that drama department scene. Um, she's so good in it, the way she plays that so innocently and so like the way I even noticed the way she after he kissed her. She was eighteen at the time of filming, obviously still very creepy stuff to do, but they and he looks young, super young, yeah, but looked fifteen or sixteenyears is what she played. Um,

the way that after he kissed her. God, it still just gives me the chills thinking about that because it was so fucking creepy. Um, and he just bolts, And the way she played that that, yeah, unnerved high school like kind of looked around like did anyone just see that? Or what did I just do? And she ran out of there kind of upset but kind of thrilled. It was all there, man, and just like face acting. And the way she ran out of there, Yeah, her shoes

were probably like pointed at each other. I think she like she like pulled her you know, her shirt down a little bit and yeah, that's you can't teach that. And it was so instinctual and in the in the in the DV extra, the DVD extras, Juliet Louis talks about that being like one of her most uh satisfying acting experiences, you know, I bet. And she just was

really into the electricity of it, you know. And she was into the you know, without a net, noess of it, you know, and this idea that anything can happen, and and it did. Um. But you know, how do you how do you create that in a world of um, in a world of rightfully, in a world of consent, when we have to create moments of um of danger. Yeah, I mean it would certainly be a much more controversial scene to even put in a movie these days, and a modern uh scene like that. The it was a

different time. You know, the girl probably wouldn't put herself in that position rightfully. And but you know he had set it up all the night before he called her on the phone. Established that Bond made her laugh a little bit, kind of was like, I'll be there for you because I know your parents they don't get you. So it's all there. And I think that hits home of why Max Katie in this movie was so threatening was that he didn't get out of prison and go

to Sam's office and shoot him in the head. He had this plan to terrorize this family. Yeah, and that's so much scarier than just getting out of jail and going in revenge killing your attorney. And he, you know, I was really struck this time around when uh, you know, when they talked about he has that line where he says to Sam, you're going to learn about loss, and I was thinking about this. So basically, all three of them lose something. Danny is going to is going to

lose her ideal mother, which is Graciela. Lee is going to lose her ideal friend, which is Benjamin the Dog. And Sam is going to lose his ideal wife, which is Elina Douglas, his you know, his coworker. You know, we meet them. They're both wearing white, they both are sexually attracted to each other. They interested in the same things. They love racket ball, they love the law like well and it's light, it's fun. It's like this. His marriage at that point was this uh difficult thing where you know,

you learned later. I love the way they pars out the backstory to like you can tell very early on that Lee has no respect for him in his work or as a man, or in husband and father. But

you really don't kind of get wide. And they parsed it out later on in that great scene where you learned that he cheated years ago in Atlanta and that's why they left, and that's why they moved, and um, I think it was really smart to hold onto that fact a little bit and just show her her contempt that you know is there, but you're not quite sure why.

And she says, you know, and she says, at the beginning, in that first six minutes, she has you know, she reveals um these interesting kind of you know, she reveals something about Sam where you know, they're talking to you know, Danny is like, oh, you should have punched that guy, and Lee says, yes, Sam, you know how to fight dirty. You do it, you do it for a living. Yeah. There's a lot of little jabs like that. Yeah. And it's just the accumulation of those jobs are it's just

it's just ridiculous. And the fact that he is so emasculated, And because he's so emasculated, I think it's right that he uses the rock at the end. You know, it's right that he you know, is that kind of primordial you know, avenger at the end, because all through the movie he's such a joke. You know, he's supposed to be this whip smart lawyer, but every time he turns around, his house is being infiltrated. And then when he when

he goes on the attack, what happens. You know, Lee Heller he you know, um, you know Max Katie hires Lee Heller. He says, no, this is gonna be a conflict of interest. He says why. He's like, well, you know, Max Katie has employed me as his defense attorney. And he said, and every time, you know, like he hired he goes along with Joe Don Baker and he hires a couple of thugs to try to be you know,

and that goes straight to hell. And that scene is great. Yeah, that scene is such a such a tense scene because nulty he makes he's always just sucking up. Man, He makes so many mistakes. He shouldn't have been there to see it happen, but he does. He wants to see him get beat down. And then you know, Katie's superhuman at this point, he is a he is a monster because these guys, three guys beat him with chains in that steel bat uh over the head multiple times and

he's still coming back and uh. The one scene that the one part of that scene that bothered me, that always bothered me was when he kicks that can, makes the noise and freezes and you know, could you be there? And he approaches and then the ending of that scene, I think there was no way out of it that made sense. So Didnio just goes, uh, fuck it, what's the matter if you do here? If you are here?

And he walks a way right, and that that really bugged me because but then I started thinking last night, I was like, but how do you get out of that scene? Yeah? You can't. I mean I mean, I mean, like if he came around the dumpster and uh, and it was revealed that Sam has sort of like scurried away, you know, sort of expertly scurried away. That wouldn't make sense, it wouldn't, but man, it would give it would give you know, it would really throw Sam's character a bone.

You know. I don't know if that would be good or bad, but at that point he would feel like but maybe, you know, maybe at that point of the movie, he we need Sam to be as weak as possible. You know, he's chugging, he's borrowing Lee's cigarettes, and he's chugging his wife's cigarettes at home and he's being forced

to um to duck under all the windows. You know, we're not supposed to stand up dad, right, exactly, And in fact, I was noticing last night there's um there's a scene the first sort of it's an early first long scene in between Katie and Sam when Max is in his uh Mustang and he talks about um. You know, Sam offers him money. He says, one of my dollars, and then Max does the math and realizes that it's like ten bucks a day. Oh, he just solely eviscerates him, right,

And and it's funny through that whole scene. Behind behind Sam's head is the word discount on that store. There's a story. Yeah, there's like a banner for a store and it just says something something discount. But yeah, it's no accidents, no, not at all. These people that Yeah, this this Scorsese team, these people are not you know, even if it's not conscious, these people are not making mistakes. Yeah,

it's interesting that. And I think the only bone that Sam finally gets from from Lee, from Jessica Lang is it after they had been through everything and they were finally on the boat. She has not built him up at all or given him any breaks about anything, not that he deserved it. Uh is when he says that he's going to go fishing the next day and she goes, and it's a really great character moment. She says, you know, you know, we got enough food to last us a week.

Why are you going to do that? And then she kind of catches herself and she goes because you know that she knows that he needs to catch the fish to provide for the family, like he's a frontiersman, and she goes, I think that'd be really nice, and that one little moment, man, she gives them and the whole fucking movie, and it's just so key to me that she felt the need to, like, like, man, I've been

beating this guy up. We he has literally been beaten up over the course of this movie, and uh, I've got to give him some shot of self esteem, even if that's just sure, her husband go catch the fish, you know, and she you know, like she he did betray her for sure, And obviously I'm not advocating infidelity, but the Trees is, like, I think, after a certain period of time, like he doesn't deserve it in the

sense that she's destroying herself in the process. If you can't truly forgive, then you should get divorced, right then she needs to get the funk out. But she's you know, she's kind of she's ruining herself by staying there in this awful situation. And and you're right, as far as character development goes, she needs to throw him that bone

because we have to see them. There has to be a glimmer of hope at the end um And it's interesting because all these trappings of suburbia, all these trappings of you know, professional success, and you know, all these you know, friends, family, whomever, everything gets stripped away, and they're they're just laying in the mud on the on the you know, on the river's edge, you know, and the rain is sort of like completely fogging and drenched

Sam's glasses, and they're kind of, you know, they're kind of like this family trio at the most you know most in the most you know, molecular sense, and they have to start, you know, start over. And I don't know if you saw that the DVD extras, but um

Scorsese talks about that scene. There's a shot of Lee after she's been you know, she and Danny have been sort of thrown from the boat and they I guess they've sort of swam swam, swam swam, they swimmed um over to the short of the river, the river bank, and Sam and Max are kind of in the last throws of their their manly battle, and um, once everything's sort of sort of done, and Katie goes down with that piece of the boat, or we think he goes

down at the piece of the boat. Yeah. Um, Well she's left in the mud and she's she's there by herself and in the shot she picks herself up out of the mud. Yeah. Um. And in the DVD extras they were explaining that that was actually a reverse shot. In reality, she was laying herself down into the mud. But Scorsese wanted this just a very slight, sort of uncanny kind of other ness to that to that shot.

And I went and rewatched it and I was like, man, these fucking guys, it's so subtle, but like they just you know, and who knows if that was a choice. I'm always fascinated, like, is that a choice in pre production? Is it a choice in production or is it a choice in post? I bet it's post. It might be posted. Yeah, but I think I think, you know, I think you know, if you've got all the people firing on all the cylinders, Um,

these things don't have to be conscious. You know, they're just making decisions and later on they will mean things, but in the moment we don't know what they mean. But they're the right thing to do. Yeah, there's also a there's also a moral question at the heart of this story that when I saw this in college twelve times, I just never even thought about it. But there is a real moral question about a defense attorney burying a

report of promiscuity. I mean, that's the whole central focus of this movie is the fact that Max Katie went to prison for fourteen years and maybe didn't have to because there was a report that showed that the victim, his rape victim had been I think, had like two or three, at least two or three sexual partners in the last month. And it's you know, Joe Don Baker or not Joe Don Baker, who was the Fred Thompson. Fred Thompson is the one. It's like, you buried the

report the report. Yes, I can't stand it. I feel like I feel like the reason why is because I feel like this, you know fiction, Uh, this fictional girl's promiscuity obviously has zero to do with whether or not she deserves to be raped. Well, of course, and that's what Nick Nulty finally gets to say that at the end. He's like that just because she was promiscuous doesn't mean

she deserved what you did to her. But Fred, can't you know, Fred Thompson, can't you know he can't sort of at least say to him, like, man, that was you fucked up? But I get it. No, you're right.

He comes down on a really hard moral judgment and for as a really moral question, there really is no question obviously, except for the fact that you are entitled due process in this country and an attorney to represent your best interests, like no matter what, like he does go against that code rightfully, So I would have done the same thing. But it is interesting to kind of

pick pick out a little bit. It's it's, um, it's funny how how Max, as capable and intelligent and cunning as he is, he doesn't latch onto the idea that, um, there's a gray area there. He only he's so, you know, intensely focused on how he had been wronged. But he you know, of all the things he understands about human nature, he doesn't understand the part about human nature where he thinks,

wait a second, this is actually something that someone would do. Um, But of course that's you know, that's because he was probably you know, he's on that side of the he's on that side of the gun. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Um. It's such a diabolical plan too that de Niro has. It's you know, he starts with the dog and then he moves on to the mistress in one of the most brutal assault scenes in movie history. Yeah,

hard to watch. And Eliana Douglas is so great. I aways been such a big fan of hers, and she's really great in this movie. But the scene in the bar beforehand is just like panic inducing almost because you know what he is, she doesn't know what he is, and she's drinking at the bar and you see it coming and it's just it's a tough scene to watch. But he moves to the mistress, then to the daughter, then to the wife, uh, and then ultimately to Nulty.

Is his He's he's going to be the final guy because he wants him to see all this other ship happening. And he gets, you know, he he gets, He gets in there in such I mean, it's funny that there's, you know, underneath all this wild sort of neon colored bright poppy. You know, the costume choices are so corny and ridiculous, you know, his de Niro's stupid mirrored glasses

and his stupid white little cat Danish hat. These are ridiculous things on the top, and then below it's a pretty brilliant efficient script where you know, he gets, you know, he gets through to Um to Lee by explaining how Um Sam had betrayed them both and so they're both wrong. They're both on this side of Sam and obviously Um. He locks into Juliet Louis's you know, her distance that she feels and the feel, the fact that she feels

so misunderstood by her family. And even when they're trying to you know, even when Sam is trying to relate to protect to um, you know, to protect Danny, there's that scene that just kills me. He goes into her room and she's I think she might be talking on the phone. She hangs up the phone, and she's wearing these like short I no, no, actually she's wearing her underwear. She's in her underwear, says come on, you know, not a kidneymore. And she's popping gum and being a teenager

or whatever. And he goes in there and it asks her, um, well, I can't remember the reason he went in the first place. But they get onto the topic of you know, did he did he touch you? Yeah, and she kind of brushes him off and he comes closer and he's like no, no, did did did he touch you? And and it sort of builds to the point where Sam has got his hands on her mouth and he's crushing her head into the bedboard or the headboard of the bed and and then he finds himself and he kind of backs up

a little bit. I think he tries to like fix her hair maybe, and he's like sorry, so, you know, and he leaves the room. And then she screams like get out of here, get out of here. And this family like it can't I mean, can it just keeps on stepping and ship these people? You know, Sam especially he just can't get anything right. Well, yeah, because he's

he treats her like she's dumb and a kid. And because there's that one scene where he and Lee start to really go at it and he sees Danny walk up the stairs and he's like, oh, everything's fine, honey, and she's you know, that's the worst parent moves because kids, fucking no. Man. I grew up in a house with parents who were in a twenty five year fight, and like, kids aren't stupid, and to have parents be like, Oh, everything's okay, that's just that's just uh, it makes it

makes it all worse. And yeah, that's what it totally is. That's for them. And that's when de Niro sweeps in and gives her agency and treats her as an adult, and that's how he charms her to begin with. On that first the phone call and then when he's hanging outside down like a vampire bat. Yeah, I noticed like a vampire bat. It was such a cool decision to

put him in those gravity boots or whatever. And he, you know, in the in the Alien and Douglas scene, and I wonder what Scorse's dating Bilean and Douglas at the time. They either were dating at the time or they started dating after this. It was right around that time though, I think because you know, in that scene at the bar, Um, for some reason, it's super creepy that Max is always drinking water. Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah yeah. He's like the ev On in the in

the Mustang and everything. Well, because he's so disciplined, he's got the discipline to read those teach himself to read and to do the ten thousand set ups a day, and to not drink and to always be clear headed. Uh. I also think that was a really clever set up with Um that he bites her cheek in that brutal scene,

because that comes back later. That's what partially what makes the scene with Juliette louis so unnerving when he starts kissing her, and I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, he's gonna bite her tongue off her tongue, yeah exactly, And this is so effective and he doesn't, which is a great little filmmaker trick to build up something that doesn't really happen. And in both of those scenes, Um not in the not in the body and ilan his face scene, which I think it's something they weren't

going to do and they threw it in there. And that was you know, that's something that I I'm always pushing on directors. I'm like, guys, you know, like this is like this is you know, we don't have a hundred million dollars. Let's put let's throw everything at this. You know, like the only thing we have is the ability to to make this script and do things narratively that no one's ever seen. We don't have David Fincher money to make this, you know, and you know, and

Emmanuel Lubski kind of you know, visual masterpiece. So you've got to throw that silly ship in there and and if it doesn't work, then take it out. But you're asking about the costume and the costume hair and makeup choices. And in the scene with Aleana at the bar, and also in the scene um, the Big Bad Wolf scene and the and the school auditorium, Denira looks really good, like he's he's kind of feathered his hair back. His hair looks it's yeah, and he's you know, I don't

know what he's. You know, he's I don't gotten a bit of an extra tan, but he's just he's really handsome in those scenes, um, and that you know that that kind of bait and switch where he says, um, you know I actually was. I was in a Georgia State penitentiary and you're like, oh, you know that that jig is up and he talks about and anti you know, anti nuclear man. Yeah. Yeah, he saved a little old lady basically shoved around by a cop. Yeah, and so

he popped and wanted the game three years. So like brutally manipulative and brilliant. And as soon as that happened, you're like, oh, ship man, Yeah. And as soon as that happens, Elean is like, um, I'm drinking sea breezes. I hope you can afford them. Yeah, she's she's in

you know. Yeah. The one thing that I wondered about yesterday that I had never considered is what a big risk that was for him, because he, by all intents and purposes, should have been back in prison for a very long time after that brutal assault, and he took a really big risk on her, banking on her not saying anything, and Nulti kind of mentions it later like I think he knew that she knew the system and stuff, but still a very very big risk that he took

by going that far. You know, they could have fixed that.

You know that they could have fixed that a little bit by saying, you know, he knew that she wasn't going to testify, that she was gonna, you know, that she was going to get on the stand and get grilled, and we could say, you know, he could say, yeah, I don't know what she her response would be, and then Sam's response could be, well, he's also a fucking monster who likes to rape, you know, like you know, there's you know, like it's you know, Katie is cold

and calculating and pays for everyone's lunch when no one knows he's there. But also he's a guy who you know, raped and assaulted people, and you know, regardless of however many crunches he does every day, there's still part of him that that's that big bad wolf. That's that, you know. I mean, I think you're right, like in the story, you know, in the script, it's a little bit flimsy. I guess when he says, oh, he made he took this big risk because he absolutely knew that she wasn't

going to testify. I mean, yeah, I agree with you. It's a little bit flimsy right there. But in, you know, but sort of beyond the script and me thinking about him. I like the fact that he's you know, he just can't help himself. Yeah, he is a monster. And uh you mentioned that buying people. They're paying for their dinners and stuff. It reminds me of that scene with Joe Don Baker where he was tailing him and he paid for his lunch or whatever, and what a great scene

that was because Joe Don Baker. I mean, this is such a movie about the male identity and masculinity and what that must mean. Because Nulty is trying to be this protector. He thinks he needs a gun. He doesn't even know how to. He's so ill equipped to protect his family and he knows it. Max Katie is the quote unquote real man. Jodan Baker is a real man and he's always got it figured out. He you know, that scene with he and Katie after that lunch is so great where he's trying to tough guy him and

Katie's just like, fuck you man. He's like, you don't know who you're talking to, asshole, and he says something like, um, oh you know, were you a cop or maybe you couldn't hack it as a cop. That's the line that's where he completely fucking cuts his achilles. It's funny Joe Don Bakers, ever since The Living day Lights, I've always seen his act his you know, I've seen that actress

like somebody who's who's big and blustery. But he's he's not gonna win, you know, essentially, he's um, he's not capable. I mean, we haven't even talked about the greatest sequence, you know that that that concludes with Sam slipping in you know, Graci ellis blood. Yeah, so all right, let me start at the beginning there then, because that scenes ties into what I was gonna say about Joe Don Baker is he always thinks he's got it figured out. At first, it's we can hire a couple of guys,

you won't be hearing from him anymore after this. They're also ill equipped to deal with this monster. And then when he starts out that sequence where they're doing the overnight, Sam fakes like he's going out of town, so the house is empty supposedly or not empty, but he's not there, and he ties that the bear up with the fishing line. Yeah, and he's like, I don't know if the Holy ghost is trying to get in here. I got my little

six shooters, you know, snubnosed cops special. I mean not just that, but they and they used the Teddy Bear essentially, they're they're, um, they're strangling the Teddy Bear with monofilling that line. Oh, I didn't even really ever think about it.

And you know that foreshadows the piano wire. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but he just thinks he's got it all under control, like every man in this movie thinks they have it all under control, and Katie's really the only one with any control ever, and uh yeah, it culminates, and you know they set up of course, after seeing this multiple times and you see the housekeeper earlier on, you're like, it looks a lot like DeNiro from behind. Yeah. You know what's funny, Chuck, I realized when I was watching this,

I mean I watched it again last night. But um, Graciela is the second character that we see on film. Oh at the very beginning, yep, right wind right in, Katie walks into the camera in that kind of cheeseball film school thing that they tell you not to do, but it's perfect. Um. Uh, you know there's a scene where we you know, we go and we established the outside of Um. I might not have this sort of visually verbatim, but we established the outside of the Bowden house.

And then the car pulls up and there's actually a shot on the on the driveway, and Graciela's foot steps into the shot and the camera um and I can't remember it either, tilts up. I think it booms up to her face as she looks up um at the house.

And then Danny comes out and says, come with Sta. Yeah, but like, but Graciela looks up at the house a couple of beats too long, and the camera stays on her a couple of beats too long, almost as if to say that this is going to be a huge character in this movie, which I mean kind of she is, but not really. And I just thought, man, that is that's that's really ballsy to to put a lot of

weight on on this character. And obviously he's trying to really wait this, you know, he's trying to really heighten the stakes. So you've got this character in a single, and not just a single, but a single that that booms up. And then we've got Benjamin a single of

the Dog underneath Lee's drafting table. And then, um, it's not exactly a single, but when we meet Ileana Douglas, it's in that really kind of handheld crazy you know, fast cutting, right, and so we see all these characters in you know, isolated singles, you know, like this movie is saying, like you watch these people, you know, watch these two people in this dog and obviously we don't know this at the time, but they're sacrificial lambs, all three of them, and each person is I mean, if

you think about it, I'm just I'm just thinking about this now, Like I'm thinking about the reaction of Danny when Gracila dies, she freaks the funk out, um, and and Lee's reaction to Benjamin dying and she and and Bowen. Sam says, well, I told you not to let him out, and she says I didn't fucking let him out, and yeah, she freaks, she freaks out about that. I mean again,

all rightfully, all appropriately. And then of course Sam, it's funny his reaction to Lean and Douglass rape and assault, um is you know, I mean, obviously I think he has a lot to um, you know, I think he feels very deeply about her being hurt. But you know, we see um each character is kind of silent response to the thing they truly wanted being you know, obliterated. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Uh And obviously you know he's hanging on.

He's establishing the uh was it Graciana, Gracila Gracilla. He's establishing her early on too, just because that pays off later. I mean, when de Niro's dressed up as her, so he really got to at least know what she looks like from behind, and what her hair looks like and what she's dressed like. And that's that's one of the great reveals man in in movie history. When she turns around and it's him. Uh, it's just like I got

chills in my arms now thinking about it. And I've seen the movie a dozen times and it gets me every single time. And the setup with the piano wire being gone, it's all just expertly like puzzled together. And to me, it's better than the face skin reveal of Sounds of the Lambs. Oh God, that's so good too. Though, you know it's time for me I'll take I think it's because of the hair. But we should tell the listeners that So Joe Don Baker has this big plan

to absolutely catch you know, catch backs Katie. And the whole plan is that they're going to use the family as bait to lure Katie in. So Joe Don Baker, in his kind of like blustery over confident way, strings a fishing line all over the doors and windows because he thinks he's going to you know, um uh, he's going to see the bear move because the line, the fishing line is wrapped around the bear's uh neck. So he sits there all night, drinking his you know, scotch

and pepto bismol mixture, holding his gun. And the whole idea about the scene is that he um uh. He goes in the kitchen, he's you know, we see Graciela and her pink you know maid's outfit and her black hair. He says something to Graciela, and of course Graciola turns around and it's you know, it's revealed to be Bob and Nero or Max Katie, and of course he gets He strangles the fucking shit out of Joe Don Baker with the piano wire and Joe Don Baker falls to

the floor. Um Max, well, he the gun goes off, he shoots himself. Oh yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's where all the blood came from, right, And de Niro kind of guides the in the struggle, He kind of guides the gun get back to him, yeah, in Joe Don Baker's direction. And then of course the Boden's wake up and they find you know, like, um uh Max, Katie's gone, They find Joe Don Baker, um, they find Graciela.

And in the melee of trying to call the cops or call the ambulance or whatever, Sam slipped and falls on, you know, on the blood in this pool of blood that's covering Linolia. One of the great decisions in any movie ever was to not just have that reveal and and that be what the scene is, but to have him slip in the blood and then Lee come over trying to help him out and falling all over in

the blood. It's a very kind of goofy slapstick thing, but it's so visceral in like, um hard to watch because you're you're just they're discovered in this fresh warm blood. Now all of a sudden, it turns into a fucking horror show. It does, and this is the pith. I think this is the power of the auto director. Um. These days, everything is so watered down because we have to you know, movies are so expensive. We have to

reach like the biggest broadest fan base. We have to your ages twelve through fifty, and we can't be specific, and we can't be um. We can't be dangerous or evocative or um. We can't take chances, and that right there is an insane chance. You know. I just saw you know, another round last night, the Matt Nicholson that won the Oscar. Oh yeah, good, oh man. I had the best time watching it. I thought it was amazing. Yeah.

And then obviously Thomas Fincherberg is another autour. He's and he's saying, no, I'm going to do this, and the choices are really specific and either you like it or you don't. And the ability in movies these days to either like something or not is getting, you know, it's it's sort of getting farther. It's it's rarer these days. And most of the time their response is but you know, I don't want, I want, oh I hated it or

I loved it. But so many films these days are just kind of they're trying to succeed by not failing, right and by not offending or not offending, not failing you know, um, you know I see on movie sets all the time, you know, certain producers that are not good producers. They're so concerned that something will be too weird, or somebody won't understand something, or we need to over explain something, or the dialogue needs to be too much exposition. And and the thing, once you do that, you lose

all the moments that you and I are talking about. Yeah, I mean that blood slip scene. I mean, this is a movie made up of very iconic images and disturbing images that you're looking at with your eyes. I mean there's a lot of disturbing themes, of course, and themes and and lines here and there, but it's really some of these images that really are what stick with you and to me. There there's that one, and the other one that really gets me every time is that reveal

that he's fucking strapped underneath that jeep charity. Oh God, such a great reveal because they're finally multi finally makes one good decision, which is to get on that houseboat and go out on the river. Which is it's a creepy looking place and that's the whole deal with the Cape Fear River and she talks about that, you know, and everything like that, and it's called Cape Fear. Uh. But you're ostensibly ostensibly safe out on a boat on

the water because there's nothing around you. You can see everything. He can't get to you there, but he's strapped underneath that Cherokee and it's just it's just one of the great reveals. And this is when and it really is and this is when um Bowden Sam is trying to is really trying to take some forward, you know, like

makes him forward. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that was another thing, you know, they there was some discussion, apparently some discussion on set about whether or not that would be possible. And you can tell in the shot that they lifted the jeep cherokee a little bit. Yeah, they lifted the suspension but yeah, and apparently they tried it with a stunt man and it was it worked, and then they

went for it. But like that's that part, you know that reveal, um the blood slipping in the blood, you know, biting half of Iliana douglass face off and sticking his thumb in Juliet Louis's mouth. These are all images, Yeah, these are all um, these are all beats in the script that in my experience, I've seen nervous directors and nervous producers want to, uh, you think very hard about maybe losing. Yeah, it's to this or to that or

to this or somebody would be offending. Frustrating. It's so frustrating, especially when you know, would Cape Fear still be a great movie without those things? It would except you know, except it's like a meal, you know, a meal that you and I both love. Slowly, great ingredients are being taken out of this gorgeous meal that we're ready to eat, you know, this filmic meal, and after a while, you know, you lose those those images and those ingredients and the

specificity of these movies are are lost in the process. Yeah. I mean, if you think of anyone who loves this movie, if you said, name the first five things that you think of in Cape Fear, of the first five images, it will be the thumb in the mouth, probably slipping in blood, maybe the reveal of hanging underneath the car. But you know, those are the moments that like, yeah,

you can't lose that ship. Yeah, and and and if they truly remember the movie you're talking about, if they truly remember k Fear, they will say exactly the thumb

in the mouth as the one. Yeah, like that to me, that's like the the takeaway and then obviously remember the things, but like that's maybe the face biting that really, I mean, that's so disturbing and it was so over the top, and he the way he spit it out to it was but yeah, I would say the thumb in the mouth, that's the most disturbing moment in the movie because there's so much tension there. You have no idea what he's

got up as sleeves. And further down the line, Um is Max Katie his his burned and deformed face on the on the house boat. And one thing I love about Danny's character is that Danny is a deadbeat. She's she's a pot smoke like she's not I think, I actually haven't. I started watching the original and didn't like it and stopped it, and I've never Yeah, the kid in that movie is sort of like kind of the stock character of like you know, the kind of the um you know, kind of the good kid and Danny

is such a deadbeat. You know, she smokes pot. She's kind of dumb. Like her mom asks her, what, you know the girls in the parade who are dancing by with their um, you know, swinging their batons and everything else. Um, are those? Is that what they're called? There's batons you swing between your fingers. Yeahs batons? Right? Okay? The drill team right right, like silver a silver shaft and two white balls on the end. Yeah right, Yeah, didn't sound right.

I don't know. I'm gonna have to. I'm I'm trying to. I need to get up on all this daughter ship. Yeah. But but you know, Lisa as to Danny, Oh, Danny, you could have you could have done that. Why didn't you go out and try out for that? And she goes, I don't know, And she's got nothing. You know, she's got nothing. She goes to this drama class. She doesn't

know what she's doing. You know, she's constantly like you know, complaining to her friend on the phone because she's in this you know, she's in this you know WorldWind of a you know, shitty family life. But then in the end, in my opinion, the most um, the most sort of exacting violent, capable moment of attack. It comes from her. Yeah, she's the one that slips the you know, the the lighter fluid in her skirt or something wherever she hides it.

And actually when she's locked in that little yeah, she's locked in, the first thing she does is light a match and starts looking around. She she picks up that screwdriver or whatever, and it's like thumbs it. It's like, now it's too dull, throws that away and then gets at ronson lighter fluid and stuffs it in her the front of her her shorts. And uh, like I said, she's the one from the beginning that starts to try and manipulate him. She's thinking faster than anyone else on

that boat else. And uh, you know, of course he lights that cigar. That's you know, you don't question stuff like that in a movie. It's like, well, what if you never let that cigar. It's like, well he did, so that's all that matters. Another pit he had another great payoff because he does it so many times in the movie. Uh in man, when she lights him on fire and he jumps out there, like, no part of you seeing that movie thinks that that's the end of

the movie. Like, you know that that's not going to be it, And you're right. When he comes back and his face and his hairline is receded by several inches. You know, he's got a lot of more forehead in that scene because his hair has been singed back. It's a wide shot, you know. Danny's on the table in the boat, yeah, and Kate, he's leaning up against the sink and then she squirts that the lighter fluid across

the room. He goes up in flame. And if I'm not mistaken, Danny says, I got him, I got him, I got him, And I mean, you're right, Like, here's this kid who's basically sort of a dullard the entire movie. She's kind of like roaming around, sort of kind of being upset and sort of being slow. And here, yeah, here she is on this you know, in this one

moment of crisis, and she's like she turns into the ninja. Yeah, and that's when the movie, like from that point on, I mean, this is a movie that escalates and escalates and escalates towards like genre style stuff. And then when he comes back on that boat, that face, it is all bets are off. It is a full on horror freak show for the last eight minutes or whatever is

left in the movie while the storm rages outside. Yeah, man, And there's this when she talks about cape Fear in you know, there's that, you know, Juliet Lewis, Danny is looking straight at the camera at the beginning, you know, she talks about cape Fear and at the end it pays off because it book ends where she's talking in front of the class. Um, but we see cape fear. Is this like this place of dread because she talks about it and then it's gone. We don't know anything

about kape Fear. We don't hear about it. We don't know anything about it until the end and it's back again. Um. You know, Danny is you know, she definitely becomes the ninja in that scene. Lee tries to kind of kind of you know, yeah, misdirect him with her sexual prowess or whatever. Um. And of course Sam wants to, you know, take the rock and bash his head in. And it

should be noted that Sam doesn't. He doesn't, he doesn't hit his head, but you know, the tide sort of drags Katie's body out right right as the rock comes down and he misses mm hm. But I have always had a problem with the speaking in tongues. Oh really yeah, Well all right, hold on a second, let's I want to get there. That's at the very end. Let's um, let's talk about that ridiculous and ridiculously great in every way sequence where the boat caves in on itself. It's

that row. The miniatures are horrible. It's amazing. I mean, this is sort of a B movie in some ways, and a sort of an homage to Hitchcock and B movies and in movie movies. So I don't think it was trying to be like the most realistic thing, but I mean I still think that part looks amazing, and and then it's a movie when when they're getting to

the miniatures, it's a movie and I love it. But when Katie gets back on finally at the end, and he's putting Sam on trial and breaking the fourth wall and looking at the camera and you know, acting as if the camera is the judge and that he is the litigator, that's when the movie is just goes to eleven. It's just off off the rails crazy at that point, h and it culminates in the speaking in tongues. I think I think it was all BC movie build up to that moment, and you still have a problem with it.

I mean, look, the good thing that those guys do is that they kind of they set everything up at the beginning, and you know, they give you a movie right in the first six minutes. I mean, look, they give in the first six minutes, they give you a lighter of a girl's boobs, you know, like the lighter that that Katie uses to light his you know, it's like a naked chick lighter, you know, from a gas station in It's ridiculous. So you know, I mean once

they do that, yeah, they could go anywhere they want. Um. And definitely by the time they get into the you know, the kind of the fake trial uh a scene, um, you know, script wise, you know, all the other stuff that's going, you know, going bananas, you know, with your production design and your editing and your this athletic camera and the film backwards and forwards, all that stuff. By

that time we were already there. So the table has already been set for what becomes, in my mind, the kind of the most extreme extreme script moment, which is the fucking which is this crazy trial? Um? Oh man?

And when he grabs Sam by the back of the hair and you know, and when Sam is handcuffed behind his you know, his hands are handcuffed behind his back, and he grabs him by the back of the hair and pulls him through that window and Nick Nolty, Nick Nolte just bounces on all this teak you know this like teak furniture. I just thought, oh my god, man, these guys are But again, you know the miniatures which

which they shot in England, Um, they're terrible. They look terrible, And yeah, I mean it's fun though, that's and I think the fact that they're embracing this artificiality, that's. Those are the movies I love. I love the Cook, the Thief, his wife and her lover. You know, I love all this stuff that is. You know, I'm not interested in um, you know, I'm not always interested in realism. I don't want to look out my window and see a movie. I want to like look into somebody's imagination and see

that movie. Yeah. It is interesting though in that trial scene is kind of over the top as it is. That's where you kind of get that key moment where Nulty finally says it, Yes, I buried the report because I mean that's where it's finally laid out there at the very very end of the movie. And you were my lawyer, you were supposed to represent me. Just because she was promiscuous doesn't mean she deserved to be raped. I mean, that's that's it. That's that moral quandary and

a nutshell at the very end. Um. And you know that's just prior to the boat implosion. Uh. It also leads to the funny uh fight scene on the beach at the end when they're just slugging the ship out of each other. And one of my favorite lines still is, uh, I believe you're well within five yards, counselor I mean if you yeah, if you go back and you can't even I mean the half of Katie's dialogue you can't understand because of his accent, but yeah there, um yeah.

His stuff with with Joe John Baker is, um, well, you've got me shaken all over. Yeah. And there's when when Sam comes across, he sort of bolts across the parade and grabs, you know, grabs Katie because Katie is looking at his wife. Um, uh. You know, at one point, Katie says, Um in his defense, he said, I ain't pranking on you. I'm not pranking on you. Like what the fuck? And when? Yeah, and when? And when? Sam is going nuts on this guy on Katie. There's this

shot that I'll always remember. I don't know why, it's just buried in my consciousness, but there's a shot of this kid in on the float and they're recreating Yeah, they're recreating the exactly. So we're recreating the time life photograph of Iwo Jima and this one kid, you know, who's kind of he's he's meant to be staying completely

still as the you know, the parade moves by. Um, Sam is going so nuts and so you know, he's kind of yeah, he's going so nuts there this kid breaks his Ewo Jima character and just looks down at him as it is. It's like what what? Why are we on this kid? You know, I remember that shot too. Every time I see that movie, I'm like, why did he insert that shot? It's really interesting thing to leave in there. And there's that great part too. Or Deniel is like, watch my arm, watch my arm, it might

be broken. Yeah, it's like Sam is backfired again, like everything he does just turns to ship and the revolts are the roles are constantly being reversed where he's the bad guy completely and and I think I need to, um, I need to wrap it up because my wife needs to leave the house. But I want to say that it's those moments of um, those out of context moments,

those moments where we don't understand. Those are a lot of the moments that we remember forever and this and this constant push of you know that we're living in this like numbers world. You know, we're living in a world of algorithms makes sense and sort of a plus B equals sea world. And the truth is it's those those moments of uh, you know, complete randomness, you know, those moments that we truly don't have no idea why

they left that s that kid in there. I mean, you know, plenty of people saw the edit and they were like, what's what's the deal there? People are going to be confused, why could well that's a bad thing. And what I say to them, it's like, why is confusion a bad thing? This is a movie neo noir, crazy, big bad wolf movie, Like we shouldn't all be confused a little bit? Yeah, yeah, totally. Uh, I think we

did it, dude, you think yeah. I mean it only had one or two more points, the weird stigmata christ figure stigma at the end that he washes his hands away. I'm not sure how to went back that then. It also it also bugged me that he was washing his hands instead of immediately running and looking for his wife and daughter. Baby steps, baby steps, Sam will get there. Yeah,

And I'm glad they didn't show them. You know, a worse a lesser director would have the last shot of the movie would have been the three of them living together with a new puppy that looks just like the old dog, living happily ever after somewhere. But he didn't do that. That's that's the trophy ending. He ended with Juliet Lewis with that great sort of book ended monologue about choosing life, and then in the film goes negative again and this is like we're out and she even

says the end, I think, right, the fairy tale is over. Yeah, And I just love that that a character that I just love that it's not Sam. Yeah, I love that it's not Sam. And it's not Lee and it's not Max Bookendy. This thing, it's it's kind of her story in a lot of ways. It's kind of her story in a lot of ways. Yeah, good stuff, man, go Juliet. Thanks for doing this, and thanks for wedging this in and now we had a hard time with the scheduling, but I don't worry about it. As fun as I hoped.

It would be a great movie. It's a great movie. And I really love to hear that baby a dad. Oh yeah, I gotta go be a dad. But I'll tell you one thing. It's really great to rewatch these things with movie Crush in mind, because it made maybe crush makes these things, makes me see them in a really brand new, kind of more analytical way. And I love it. It's fun. I'm glad you're enjoyed it. To my friend, I am buddy, all right, see you later. All right. I'm gonna go move to Cape Fear literally

in about a month. Awesome, all right, thanks dude, see you man. Movie Crash is produced and written by Charles Bryant and Meel Brown, edited and engineered by Seth Nicholas Johnson, and scored by Noel Brown. Here in our home studio at Pontstey Market, Atlanta, Georgia. For i heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,