MC Classic: Silence of the Lambs

So this week I am going with one of my favorite all time episodes when I got to sit down with two of my uh professional peers and professional heroes, Karen killed Gareth and Georgia hard Stark of my favorite murder. That's right, everybody. If you're a murdering now, you've probably heard this one already. But if not, get ready to be delighted because I sat down with Karen and Georgia

at a great time a couple of years ago. It out out in Los Angeles in person, and uh, they're just so lovely and wonderful, and I think so much about um, so much of what they've done, and there rise to fame as podcasters and it's it's just a

great show. So check out My Favorite Murder if you haven't, and listen to this episode right now where we not only talk about podcasting and and all that other fun stuff, but we have a great, great deep dive into the classic thriller, one of their favorite films and mine the Silence of the Lambs. Check it out right now and we will be back next week with brand new episodes. Georgia.

When you uh texted me to invite me to the the Theater in Atlanta to tell a murder story, I have never been more upset that I couldn't do something. Oh I was my in laws having like a birthday party for one of my family members, and you know, you gave me like two hours, and I was just so whenever you come to Atlanta, and I'll just be kind of sitting by the phone, like with no plans. Whatsoever are we doing at next time? I don't think so yeah, we well we'll be back to Georgia by

the way, coming to I thought you'd come to the Fox. Yes, we're super excited about it. Did you forget? We just so kind of it's so huge that we kind of ignore it and tell it's like the day before the Foxes, Like that's the big theater in Atlanta that grew up, the big beautiful that's what we didn't want. Were there last time? No, No, I was so impressed by your just now. I was like, how do you know that we've done a Fox theater? The Fox Theater is what

we're doing in Oakland. Yeah, no, you're gonna be see I know this. This is exactly how I was hoping this would go. You're being so Georgia right now. Um No, you're gonna beat the Fox this fall in Atlanta and last time you're at the Cobb Energy Center outside of Atlanta. That was a good show. That was super fun. Was that the one where I almost resprained my ankle walking out, Oh,

because we were sitting. I have tricked ankles too. So it is so frustrating because it's a kind of thing where when you're trying to travel with people and you have a bad ankle, so you're like a little limpy and a little slow anyway. But then on top of that, like you do something dumb and then you're like, oh, I may have just resprained, Like I may have just recreated this. You stepped off a curb and there was no curb. Yes, but I was really mad because it

started to go downhill like it was a ramp. So I assumed after four steps I would have been able to step right and we would giving me on the ground. I don't blame you for that. Like, there was also like a parking thing that I actually just drove over in a parking garage just now. One of the what are they called, like the stopper thing and create blocks, Yeah, the bumpers or whatever. Yeah, speed bricks. You know what every place house? I thought you meant the scary fucking

clause that like rental car places don't back out. I get scared driving over those going forward because I think you're going the right way and the right way. You don't trust yourself or the mechanism. I actually one time was walking out of a parking structure and I was so concerned I was going to step on that claw and have it go through my foot that I wasn't paying attention to the fact that the bar came down

on my head. Oh my god, because I was like looking down like this and then and then all of a sudden it was like a thing went gunk and then down my face and then I took like one more step in the lady that was in the booth. There's so many signs, don't walk here, don't know pedestrians, and I just lazed right up the center and then she was like, I don't walk here, like just like insult to injury. You're humiliated and hurt. And and then

she came in with use this information. Was like, thank thank you, I think at the concussion, but thanks for the reminder of the thing that I already forgotten. And that's so Karen. You guys are already being so yourself. We didn't even know we were a certain kind of person dip ships. It sounds like, well, and what stuff you should know with us too. It's I'm sure, I mean I can tell I can hear it on the show.

There's a lot of this, like what the fund is happened, because the whole podcast explosion in and of itself is kind of weird because, like we're saying, ten years ago, I don't think I had a podcast, but I would do them every once. While there were people that were trying to start it. There was there were a lot of people doing that. Remember that there was that old It was called something Radio and it was like out in Santa Monica and it was this big warehouse and

there was just like fifty different casks going at once. Yeah, basically the first wave. I remember watching other people doing it, like Greg Barren and David Anthony dealing doing projects and then just sitting back going like, why are they trying to do radio? This is weird and I'm supposed to try to be on TV. I thought it was like because I listened to them tenis years ago, maybe not that many, but like I thought it was like NPR style because it was all like a spark in life

and you like smart people ship. Yeah, So I didn't know that it was like, you know, like just blabber. It wasn't like that. It was. It was smart people

a little bit more smartish stuff back then. But I think like it's been busted wide open now and now there's dingongs like because when they think everyone realized you don't need some fancy producers, don't the studio necessarily, Yeah, you could just get a zoom and kind of slap it up there and who cares, yea, and to the world, we're going to everybody box theater, boxes in your dress

has foxed, Oh my god, gosh, how was um? Now you just got back from like didn't go to like fucking Norway, to Europe and then went to the and all over. Yeah, and people are coming out in those weird countries. In Oslo, Norway, we had an audience full of a theater full of people that were laughing in

all the right places. High my thing. I think I only told you this once, maybe twice, but I was positive because this is happening to stand ups that I know when you go over there, your your sets are insanely quiet, and even if they like you, they don't respond to like Americans responded, not verbal. It's not the same kind of yeah. So I know I warned you at least once, but in my mind I was like, we're going to eat it royally in Scandinavia and we just have to bear through it and then we'll get

into like London. I will be okay. And instead of it being it was exactly the opposite. It was like just as good, if not better than any show we've done any Yes, sweet and I think was the best like they were, but it was a lot of expats too, so it was a lot of people who were really happy to have a show there that they could. It's

like a unifying element, the murderingos in one room. Yeah, exactly. Well, we did the UK and Ireland two years ago and no one had prepped me for because our experience in London was what you were talking about is they're not very outwardly expressive. And I think in Dublin, in fact, I think we played the same theater. In Dublin they were great, but um in London, I was just like,

holy shit, they're not enjoying this. And after they would come up to it and tell us how great it was and what a fun night, and I was like, ki, guys need to show that they're dying up there, especially when you're talking about child murders. And then no one's making no one's laughing, which is like clear good. Yeah, but just the quietness of it all is like you just start to think you're a terrible person. We're a terrible person. But they're there for a reason, right, it's

the interests. But then normally we go into you know, kind of bad things. We try to avoid child murdering live shows just because it's hard to come back from us, but exactly like, no, but remember when, But normally that our conversation and our kind of banter brings it back up. And so that was my worry, was like we're going to go down and never come back up, and then it would just be like being at a funeral, like a recorded funeral, where it's just like that's not the

point of any of this. But they get it. I think it's also because these days people hear what other shows sound like and they get almost like what their part is a little bit yeah, and they're just so delighted to be there in person, Like you know how, it's it's a very safe stage to walk out on. I'm sure the same preolitis for us. Like we can funk it up in the middle and I can be like, well, that was the worst joke ever and Jerry of the Future edit that out and everyone thinks it's hysterical and

I can't imagine going and doing stand up. But I can look out in front of people and it's like it's great. I'm not even nervous anymore because they're all

there to be supportive. That was a hard adjustment for me in the beginning having done stand up when we were first performing, it made I got super controlling because I was expecting that they needed this this like very um like accurate delivery jokes time dada and the craft, yeah and yeah and and like that we needed to Hey, if we do this, then we need to do that.

And what I realized is not only is that not necessary, they want us to be doing it exactly what we do in All they're looking for is to recreate the experience in their ear holes. So their best buddies Karen and Georgia hang. They just want to hang. They just want to hang, yeah, which is a very nice, safe feeling. Were you like, dude, what are you doing? Stop managing this? Uh? I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. Tell

me what? Like? Of course, I was like if I don't listen to what Karen's like, advice sage advice as I'm a fucking asshole because you're doing this and I you know, I don't know what I'm I've never done. I've done like storytelling shows for twenty people, but I've also done live TV, so that was helpful, but I was, um, Karen would say to me, you do not like after a couple of shows, she was like, you don't know how lucky you are, and this is what you're starting with.

You know, you didn't have to be broken. I know that, And I'm like the gratitude. I wake up every day and I'm like, Okay, this is my life and I'm so grateful. It's very, very cool. And also it's just so much more fun. I suffered when I did stand up comedy. I hated back in the d I hated it personally. I was not a fan of it at all.

But it's also it's just a very it is incredibly difficult, and so then I almost felt like we have to do this, Like I just got into my head that it was we had to do a whole different thing. And I finally realized it was one of those Portlands shows there was nuts and we were Even though it was nuts, there are people. I think they sold really big cans of beer, so everyone got a little trashier

than they probably even thought they would. Yeah, but it ended up it was that thing where I went it was like Steve Martin at the end of Parenthood, where I went like, oh, this is good, this is like, this is what we want to be happy when you're having so much fun on stage that you just forget that you're in front of It's not because they're not strangers, are like your friends. They know you for sure, you know, and that's it's sort of similar. That's why identify. It's

like it feels like a big family. And the thing that we always get that I know that y'all get, is we feel like we know you. We feel like we're friends. And I always say, you know, we kind of feel the same way because it's totally it's reciprocal and we're all, uh, we're all in the same head frame. Yeah, totally. Every single person we've met, whether it's like in the Meat and Great after or five shows or in on the street, a person, it's like, oh, I would be

friends with the person. It's never anyone weird. It's always just like good people. Not yet. No, No, what's weird is so it's like a familiar person. So it's either somebody it's like, oh, this is my sister or this is the girl I always roommates. Within college, it's always like of the you know types that the life casting types. It's like the same four or five different types and even dudes to which is like, you know, they don't give them a credit on the show, but like me,

they're like, oh, you're my friend's big brother. I totally know who you are. Yeah, yeah, so you have a I mean, I know you. Crime in general has a larger female audience, but like, I'm a huge fan and I know there's a lot of guys out there. How does it break down for the shows? Just is it really there? There's times at the those meet and greats, which a very small amount of the people that are there.

But when like guys come around the corner will be like boys because it just doesn't happen that often, or it'll be someone with their boyfriend and then we'll go, um, we try to get it out of them immediately. Were you dragged here or did you you already converted before you came, because that's the most fascinating person to meet. Yeah, and it's also fun when, um, sometimes we'll get like I've never heard of you guys, and I just came with my friend and like I can't wait to download

this and listen. Even if it's ten people in a theater, you think, all right, well we've converted ten more. I mean that's the ultimate victory, right, It's like someone who's like,

I didn't even know what podcasts are. And then at the end, my thing is I always tell this to Georgia if I can see security guards in the room, like there's because it's such a tenuous like true crime comedy, you can tell there's people who are like what is this and I don't like this immediately, And there was I think that was a Texas show, yeah, where there there was a guy standing right in the front of the stage and I just I felt like everything I

was doing was like this is foreign about either and

he was cracking up the end. On our side, it was awesome, But I mean it's you understand that that's almost part of the job, is like you have to convince people that you aren't that you um for our things, specifically that people go like this is an appropriate or you shouldn't be doing this or that, and it's like, no, no no, no, trust us that we're actually gonna do it right and we're not assholes and we're not we don't think people be murdered as funny and there's a

complexity to it that we actually can handle if you would just give us the benefit of the doubt, and that's a really thrilling, thring thing to actually be able to prove you know, that's great and want a cool thing for you, Like you've had a long career where I feel like you've always been working in some way or another, and then like at this stage to hit this like point, it's like, great, it's pretty magical. It

is not anything I thought was gonna happen. I was like, maybe I'll just get a one level better staff writing job and then then I'll be happy. But like this thing came in out of left field, and it's like, all right, I don't trust it. I almost don't like it. It's so awesome and perfect. I wonder it's just going to go away right to Lially. I was just taring

my therapist about that two hours ago. It's hard to trust because it's big, and that makes you appreciate it more and like try harder, and I think you just have to stay grounded in that gratitude. Yeah, because I would be doing this anyway if like I would be doing this with you guys just down the street with no microphone. So the idea that this is somehow bread and butter, we would still be recording the podcast if it wasn't, Like if it was you know, had way

smaller listeners and wasn't wasn't our career. Now we should be doing it. It's fun and we love it. Like I had a podcast for like four years that got this you know, not a lot of downloads, but it's fun. Yeah, it's cool medium and now well now it makes funny.

I never made money on it until Yeah, that's the new part podcasting is that it's actually becoming a true business people in a career, and it's it's that even gets a little scary for me though, because I'm head of content development at our network now, so I'm in a lot of the meetings about the industry and it's changing fucking hourly, it seems like, and like I don't even know what it's gonna look like in a couple

of years. So I'm still a little bit like should I trust this protective of the like of the podcasting a little bit where yeah, I don't want to let all these outsiders who were never interested in it before

into it, oh um, a little bit. But I try to like not be that way because I have like comedian friends who I know, look at me like selling out of seat theater and they're like fuck that, and like friends of mine, no trust me, And I know I have plenty of friends in the industry like that that think like I didn't earn this at all, But like, what are you gonna do? People listen consume me? Yeah, exactly. That's the beautiful part is it's like the people voted nobody,

nobody is related to anybody. It's not any of that kind of usual ship. It's just like it's not our fault for this is the thing people like, So yeah, any kind of any of that. I always have that fraud issue and that kind of like um guilt or something, and that's my I don't know. As I move into my middle age, I'm just like, who gives the fun? You have to? It just ruins the fun if you don't become a big asshole and think like I fucking deserve this, right, No one deserves it? Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Maybe Malala George, I'm old disappointed you're not drinking? Can Rose do we have any She's like you do. My our babysitter, my wife and his babysitter was telling a story the other day about being like super drunk, and she was like, I was drinking was this can rose? And I just head that episode where you were getting like a little thick tongued. Those things are super loaded

up with it's something like really high. And she was like, I looked at the can and I was like, well, I'm gonna Georgia this like it wasn't just you, It's happening all over Ye. That's why this last episode that came out today you can hear. I didn't open my can of sparkling wine until after my story was done, because I was like, now I'm getta sit. Yeah, you did it drink Now that's great. Uh so, well, I

know where you grew up. But for the benefit of listeners, uh to movie crush, where did you both grow up? I'm from northern California. I grew up in a town called Pataluma, grist Wrestling Capital World and it used to be the but the Egg Capital. But I think we got we got knocked out, but they still have the Butter and Eggs Day parade every year. Very egg based um society. It's California. Yeah, I was born in l A and then I grew up in Sucking Orange County.

I thought I was, but I've been here since for twenty years back in l A R. Yeah, how did movies figure into your respective lives growing up raised on them? Yeah,

we had in Plama. There's a um A theater downtown that was like kind of one of those old They played Rocky Horror every Friday night for for the longest and the longest running UM showing of that, and it was a really cool theater that they every day they had a double feature that kind of went together, and so it was always like they would always be like eating Raoul and you know whatever, fast times of Richmont High, but like they would kind of um, they cultivated it

a lot. So that's the movie where I saw Fame for the first time, and the like title word came on the screen, intensely packed out house starts. Everybody started screaming, and then all these joints started get lit up and I was like, oh, this is like, this is what adults do. I was probably twelve years old the same same. It was just like and that's what they did, that's basically what they didn't. Yeah, I mean I think those types of like, um, those types of kind of art,

the art or movies. Yeah, yeah, so it was a big deal. It was a very big deal to me. But my dad used to make us bring a popcorn from home. We did a little bit mom famously, like had to purse the size of a car and she would just we would sneak in everything. Yeah, but it's not as good, No, it's sucks ship. And he used to put it in a grocery bag so he would make like a huge thing, roll it up for you and then like here's sneak That so embarrassing. And we

did the same thing. Like my parents are teachers. We didn't have a ton of money, just sort of solidly lowish middle class. Yeah, and it was a lot of money to take a family out, and this was just like you're not allowed to have anything. Yeah, you don't ever get that. I don't eat popcorn and theaters because it's like, well why would you do? I never did. That's such a waste. Yeah, well it is insanely expensive. I mean, yeah, he's right in a way, but it's

like I don't want popcorn. I want movie, right popcorn, That's right, I just want salt popcorn. Yeah, yeah, I'll still sneak in, like the bottle of water every now and then, and it's just so dumb. Yeah, like what am I doing? It's just in my d n a to like take a few extra sugar packets, yeah, for the road. Or napkins. Oh, napkins for sure, those are my car tissues. I do that too. It's time. I owe Starbucks about five dollars in napkins. They have good

straws to to bring home for your smoothies. Oh that's good. Oh they don't. You're just grabbing a hand maybe, yes, don't worry about it. That's private. Um. What were some of your favorite movies growing up, like in the formative years or impactful or favorite? I mean I remember the night, um that Ciskel and Ebert reviewed sixteen Candles. We used to always watch that show weekend show. Yeah, I feel like it was on like Saturday. Yeah, like a syndicated thing.

Loved it that. I just remember they started it. They started to run the clip and I jumped off off the couch. So it was probably like thirteen or something and stood next to TV looking at my mom, going, you have to bring into this, you have to take me, and she was like okay, And it was just like I had the most visceral reaction to that. John was

there's nights like that. Yeah, it was made for me, but there was also nothing like that, an adult kids comedy, like a smart teen thing like that, And so she brought us to it at that theater and I just it was like I was on the John h Trained. I mean, forget about it. He's taken, I mean really taken.

Even as a Uh, he was like I remember seeing that movie as a teenager and as a guy being like, I want to like I wanted to look like that guy kind of started wearing preppy or clothes and stuff like that, but I had an old Volkswagen and not a Porsche. He was like almost better looking than Matt Dylan, which is really like, my sister would kill me if you heard me say that. But Betty, he was like an updated Matt Dylan for the eighties. Yeah, he was shocking. Yeah,

Matt Dylan. I saw him recently and something I had to watch for this and rumble Fish and uh, he's like one of those guys has done solid work his whole career, yes, but has always kept such a low pro that you don't think about him much because he's never in the news. You never he is he like, you're super guy. Well, um, he was my sister's super guy, so I absorbed a lot of that from her. She was my older sister. But like, I just rewatched The

out Ciders and such a good movie. He's you never think about it's not a kid acting, it's that he is that character day and he does that thing, remember that scene where he does he does the thing where they it just shows them being greasers where they're like, you know, they come upon some kids playing cards in a field, and then he goes, it's the thing about kids. I just don't like him, and he does this like it's very James Dean. It's very overly dramatic, but it

is so perfectly done. And then they like like basically threatened to kill the kids and chase them all around or whatever. But I just want, like, you're such a better actor as a like eighteen year old or even a sixteen year old than you ever got credit for. And he had no training. They picked him out of his high school and put him into Over the Edge, that crazy movie about kids you knows as the town or whatever, and and basically that was then he just

started acting. But I'm sure he went to private classes or whatever, but I mean he was a star as he was learning about act Let's talk. I mean, we can't not talk about little Darling's should I didn't find until I was older because I'm I'm a little younger than you. How do I say this without sounding like a pick? And I know you're not. We can deal with it, ye, little darlings I saw because I just had this like tatumonial obsession because of Paper Moons, like

one of my favorite movies. I was like, I need to watch everything with tatumonially and then I was like, how did I know? I'm glad I didn't watch this as a kid. I thought was my first R movie in the theater. My cousin Cheryl snuck us in and I was I probably think I was ten. And the part where they're all standing around blowing up condoms with their mouth, I had the entire audience was going insane laughing,

and I was like, balloons are not that funny? Why would people laugh at the I just thought that everyone was so stupid because I grew up a little church boy and reformed church church boy now, but I was not allowed to see that, so I still have seen that. Well, the good girl does have sex and the bad girl does, that's the twist, but you do not see coming. Who's

the bad girl? Um, Christie McNichol. Oh, well she was my first crush, which I don't know what that says about me now, but I did the thing and you probably remember this where you would send off for like an address to write a piece of fan mail. I did this exact same thing with Kristy McNichol. Wait, usually that was it. We probably wrote our letters the same week. Yes, and I've said off and got her address somehow and wrote her like a sort of a love letter. Well

I did too. You know. I love that show Family that she was on, and she was she played Buddy and she's like the tomboy girl, and I just thought like she was the realist. Everybody else that acted on TV had this veneer of like I'm sweet and it

was like presentational bad high school acting. And here comes Christie McNicol and she's just like the fucking being real and and really like, um, she has a Jodie Foster feel to her in that it's like every she plays it all small, but it's all very real and there's like an intensity to it. And I just thought she was amazing. And I wrote her letter and never got anything back, and I was like, I don't like her anymore. I cut her out of my heart. I don't remember

when my crush ended for her, has it ever? Probably she's gay, right she is? Yeah, I think she is. Maybe there's something to that, maybe, well you know what it is. It's like they can bring more to the role than just the standardized like yeah, I'm cute, I'm pretty, I'm a cheerleader or whatever, where it's like there's also other types of people in the world, and then you're like, oh, other types of this is interesting a woman that isn't

just in address, you know, Yeah, for sure. Uh. And of course the John Hughes movies were so big, Like I remember seeing Breakfast Club in our theater in our town. Uh. And we would just take chances on movies. I didn't really know what it was at the time, although I had seen Sixteen Candles, but I think that was before I was like, oh, this is the next movie from this director. I wasn't that savvy yet. No, none of us knew what that meant. Yeah, that wasn't That wasn't

a thing back then, the pre IMDP day. Yeah, before that was the thing. But those movies were just huge for me growing up. Yeah, that was so funny. They were so interesting. It was almost like for sixteen Candles, especially the soundtrack and the closest kids were. I was like, this is a town in Chicago where everyone's cool, and I want to live in that town, and like would

I even fit in in that town? It stressed me out and it was like there was some There was some part where Molly Ringwald has a blue binder and she she the rave Ups was written is like, you know, like doodles on the binders that you can see as she's walking. And I completely wrote the Rave Ups on my binder. I'd never heard the band. I didn't even know it was a band or what it was, but I was just like, whatever this whole lifestyle is, I want I want it. And the notebook doodling and well

pre notebook dooling. I guess it was like the trapper Keeper stuff. And we were like young youngs that your experience or is this all like old people behind? Well, but I had older siblings, so I kind of I'm sure there with the you know timeline. But then there was this time in high school where I I just got really big into the eighties and I was like, this is my fucking thing. I'm obsessed, And so I got the soundtrack to Breakfast Club on vinyl I and then I also went to Rocky Horse Live. I was

just obsessed. But you know, yes, you had Eighties for a while. Yeah, but you know, growing up in the eighties, I had no supervision, so I watched all the same things. There was no like, you know, nothing was off limits. So yeah, yeah, I was sort of monitored. I was the third kid, though, so I got less monitoring as

I grew up too. But coming from like a church household, like I couldn't see little Darling's and I was embarrassed when I remember like asking my mom so embarrassing now, but asking my mom to take me out of Greece during the sleep overseen because they were in their underwear was like, mom, I don't want to well, and I just thought it was embarrassing because my mom was there, and growing up Southern Baptist, I thought like sex and

nudity was the dirtiest, most awful thing that you could do. Yeah, And I'm still unpacking that. I mean, that's that's what. That's the great gift that religion gives you, that just keeps on giving right for you, which is a different thing to unpack. It is. It's um, but that sex guilt is so weird. It's just like, what the like feelings that you're having you have no control over and that you and that every other person on the planet has and you still, like Jesus is mad. But I

feel about it right now. It's fussed up and so damaging because it's biology. Yeah, and you're told that you're not feeling like the things you're feeling are wrong. Yeah, but that's a different episode. Did you grew up wonderfully atheist in your house? That's a different podcast altogether. I grew up Jewish, like very very reformed Jewish, and from with parents, especially my mom, who was like the where did I come from? Thing? Like from a very young age,

what I love that, that's the best. So I had to rein mine back, like instead of being like, oh, this is scandalous, I had to be like, no, George, some ship scandalous because it always has anything and sex was not a big deal. So when I got older, I had to realize, like sex is a big deal and you and I kind of had to put some you know, brains on that. But the foot washing, but the washing the mons washing station, because that was your principle Spanish. It was a absolute ones that should not

have been at that school. Definitely, I'll probably pepper and little things for the murder hingos, because there are quite a few of them that are very excited about this, these worlds colliding. Yeah, it's very cool and it's so nice. Thank you so much, because that's so nice to have

your own insane inside jokes referenced on another pot. And I mean I haven't even been listening that long, probably about eight months, um, but I went to like pretty pretty quickly and deep straightly, pretty radily, thank you and sorry so many. I was going to try and work in my favorite little road things that you guys do, but um, I'll probably just go ahead and tell you,

um instead of doing that inorganically. Obviously, I know that you probably know yours right mine, But it's ship that we do on a normal basis that was done our whole lives, and suddenly people are like that thing you do consciously I love it, and then you get really self conscious of it. But it's the best think and for yours. What I was gonna do is My favorite thing that you do is oh shit, no one's ever brought that up. Oh do you not realize that's a

Karen thing. I don't think I do. Oh shure, yeah, I hear it. My thing is the this exactly what I'm about to do right now, and what I'm doing right now where I have to preamble his statement with four other statements that are like here's the thing, and I need you to know this. It's like I have to stop the room when no one's no one's going to interrupt me. It's insane and the scene. Yeah, when

we had Paul holes on, I did it. There was one way I tried to ask him and I did it about six times in a row where I'm like, you sound like a crazy You sound like someone who doesn't know what they want to say, but you think you'll just work your way up to if you keep talking, right.

I love it, and I think that's why I like our conversations work so well as in my family, Like you can start in the middle of a conversation three weeks later, and then the person would be like yeah, and they're right there with you, like you just don't finish thoughts, you don't finish sentences. In the middle of my conversation with my therapist today, we were talking about

something deep. She goes to take a sip of her water and it's a water brand that might advertise with us, and I was like, you know, and so I did, hey, do you like that water? And she didn't miss a beat, got right back to it. It was the best she does. She does like it. Okay, good water. I'm noto gonnat. They don't hanging us to talk about one where it was. But when you get a guy like holes in there

who doesn't like isn't a fan of your show? I assume no, he's never listened, So yeah, I imagine that, so you probably do think he thinks we're crazy. Yeah, And also he's just what I realized with that and all the feelings around it that we've had to unpack for weeks now. Um, he's it's the person like I don't I'm pretty sure you don't care about celebrities per se.

But these people that actually do this work that we read article act article about and they're actually the ones that do the hard, awful work that no one wants

to do. Um, there's a nobility to it, and there's like it's what you actually project onto celebrities is what most people are like, Oh, Matt daven he's such a great guy, and it's like, we don't really know anything that Damon's doing, but like when you project them onto poll Hole's you're probably gonna be pretty right because he even if he's the worst person and on the weekend, he spends those other five days fighting the good fight.

And so yeah, when he was there in front of us, there was just that kind of he was so good at talking about this thing we're so obsessed with and about the specifics of it, about the real the real work of it and a real job of it. It was so amazing. Yeah, and not getting rich to doing it,

Let's be honest, No, I don't think. So it is weird to go from this, Like you know, I think probably being in the entertainment industry, just to meet someone who has like a purpose and meaning in their lives is really and and you know, integrity and it's just nice to meet someone like that. And so you're in all of them in a way that I'm not with

the you know, some celebrity actor or whatever. Right, well, and you guys nerd out so much on forensic science and people like corners and people who do autopsies, and it is I mean, it's the hardest job. It's just like some awful thing happens that's so awful. Everyone like turns away and there's a team of people to go in at that point and clean up the awfulness. And that's amazing to Yeah, we did a crime scene clean up episode on stuff once and like really researching the

nitty gritty of that ship is just like amazing. Yes, because a lot of times they're just civilians, right that start their own company and yeah, that's and they're like, yeah,

it's never bothered me, and it's pretty good money. And why people make the decisions they make helping people because like in Michelle's book, I'll Be Done in the Dark, she talks about the brother in law coming in to like clean up you know, crime scene and it's so they didn't have that before, you know, have crime scene clean up companies, so the family had to do it. It's so awful and that's like every movie ever with

the the scrub rush and the blood stain on the rug. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, all right, well we can get into Silence of the Lambs. Um here is my first experience with this movie, which is a little crazy. I was a freshman in college and the university had a theater like the University Theater, where they would show movies and then sometimes they would be a sneak preview of another movie and you could stay. So I went and saw Dancing with Wolves because I'm

in college, I still had nothing to do sucking. Four hours later and they said, if you want to stay after, we're going to be screening a movie with Anthony Hopkins and Jodie Foster Silence of the Lambs. And I was like, all right, and it sounds it heard Anthony Hopkins Silence of the Lambs Jodie Foster, and I thought this is probably like a merchant Ivory thing, some period peace And cut to like an hour later and I'm just fucking like,

what am I watching right now? So I can't imagine like a weirder way to see that movie than to not know anything about it going into it. But it was awesome and just like from the very beginning. It's been one of my favorite movies of all time. Yeah, it has one of the best beginnings. Yeah, It's like it sets you to place, and it introduces you to a person, and it does all these things really clean and really clear without words, with outwards and with her

just struggling and like I mean like the Quantico. Yeah, her running that getting checked out by male a big group of guys that she's all by herself and she has to climb that thing getting into the elevator or the teen tiny little Yeah, and it's it's just like, so I lived in I was also in college. We're pretty much the same age, I think. Um, And I'd read the book and that in that crazy ghost story

that I've told you already read the book. I'd already read the book, um, because my sister and her friend, my sister's friend Adrian like was like here, read this and it was man Hunter. Um, and then so then it was Science of Lambs and right, because that's after and that I think it is I think Man Hunter's first. But but I read it over the weekend and then had a weird ghost experience in the house that I

was living in because I was there by myself. Um it's really long, but basically, UM, I read this book so much that I kind of started to believe I was clarice startling like in as I was reading, and it was like, this is happening to me. And then that night I went to bed full house that had we'd already been having weird things happened, but we weren't acknowledging it to each other. We were just like, I

don't know, you know. And then that night I woke up in the middle of night hearing footsteps out in the dining room and I was like, I can't believe I'm gonna get murdered like this. Like I just completely was like, this is this is everything I've always feared and it's actually happening. And I heard the footsteps come down the back hallway, walk through, open the one door to the bathroom, walk on a linoleum, opened the door to my bedroom, and then I heard feet on the

carpet in my bedroom. I felt weight on the mattress. I tipped backwards and I was like just frozen solid, and then I felt arms go around my waist and squeeze and then it was over and there was there was no one there, and it was, you know, three thirty in the morning. I called my sister and thank god she lived across town and made her come and get me and stayed with her for the rest of

the weekend, and everybody came back. It was crazy. But I do know that that book set a tone for It was that kind of thing where I couldn't stop reading it. So I started reading it in the morning and then the sun went down and the house got dark around me, and I was reading that book because it's just so like her alone trying to, you know, solve this thing. Yeah. I read American Psycho in college when I was working the midnight to eight am shift at a convenience store, and I don't know how you're

supposed to take that book. And years later with the movie, I was like, oh, this is sort of like the darkest comedy, or at least the way Mary Herron directed it. Tongue and shake a little, I guess, because that's what the movie is sort of like. But when I was reading the book, it was scary as ship. And when you work overnight like that, you just the fluorescent lights were buzzing. And for that like week I was in

a really really weird headspace. So I know, like a book can creep in like movies can, but when you're immersed in a book over like hours and days, it can really kind of funk with your heads, right because it's like a movie in your head. You're the one that's directing the movie. Yet when we went to see So, it was the Tower Theater in Sacramento, which is a big old theater, really huge screen, and so we went

to see the movie. I knew it, so I was like, well, you know when and um it was like we were we all when it was over turned to each other. We're like, we're coming back tomorrow night, like we immediately we went so insane and it was the best movie I've ever seen, second only I think too or up there with The Fugitive, which we also saw in that theater. And I'm sure it was the theater experience as just

as much as anything. But I just couldn't believe how I love to look for parts where I go, this is where you fall apart, this is where this starts to suck. And I feel like in in Sounds the Lamb's you cannot do that. It's in your perfect film and there aren't many. What do you remember your first time seeing it? Well, yeah, recently I rewatched I watched

last night. But recently I rewatched it after a while, and I was and I remember watching it in the theaters, and so I went to look what year it came out and realized that I was ten years old when I saw it, because you see, and I was like, what the fuck is wrong with my parents? And I'll tell you what. They were divorced when I was really young, and so my dad had us every other weekend. What you did was go, I'm so like with our three of us, and it was took us to the movie theater,

threw us in there. I was like, go watch a fucking movie movie, leave me alone. So my sister and I went and watched Silence of the Lands. She was like maybe twelve or thirteen, and I just couldn't believe it, and like, no wonder I have insomnia and anxiety. It's just like the most bucked up movie. And I was in love with it. And I didn't, as you were saying to you, I didn't understand half of it, MiGs, And I was like, what did you proud her face?

I totally didn't. I don't know. I think I got that when I was in because I was I didn't understand flinging sperms like I don't think I do. But then he did that so perfectly, because that could have been a really gross, salacious and almost like they did that in exactly the way where you got as upset as you needed to be. But you also it was not go to Eli Roth had directed that scene. You

have seen full on hard penis. Yeah, you would have seen. No, there have been no mystery in any way, shape or form, which is yeah, sorry, even last night when I watched it, and this keeps happening. Is I see new things, and I understand new things, and I you know, there's a lot of mumbling in that movie that I didn't understand what they were saying at the time, and I kind of got things a lot. I understood it a little more. Yeah,

it's just but I think that's what happened. When you watched that at ten years old, You're not going to kick off on a lot of those. Also, your brain might have gone like we need to shut this down now, clearly. Yeah, I know, I remember watching it many times and after that, so he must have let us rent it party. It's just really scar super deep. Yeah, but I this is actually a sidebar, but I just realized when you were ten, I was twenty one cute thing in the world. I know.

I've never thought you were a different age than me. I knew it seems sexually because coming to you at ten. I always think about this because my husband's alter than me, Like, what if I'd come up to you at ten, like, hey, everything would have been like, I can't wait to see the movie of y'all's story. That's that's going to be the most adorable scene ever friends and be like, what do you have any clothes? No, those burnt holes in your lungs when that's what they said about clothes that

my mom told me there was tiny shards of glasses. Yeah, I love yeah, because she found them in my pocket when I was in high school and she did the classic like she came upstairs and she was like, I found these in your pocket. I was like, she goes, you can smoke them if you want to, but there's tiny shards of glass anyway, and like left, I remember

that too. That's bullshit, of course, right total, Because I were to too, I would put tiny shards of glass and anything I don't know, just like please sue us and would say that, yeah, of course, that's the gateway drug clothes. All right, let's smoke a close right now, the grossest, gross like most, Like I wish I was goth. I can't even get it together to be goth. So I'm gonna smoke clothes that. Remember that taste the movie Ladybird.

They do it so perfectly where she smokes a clover and lick your lips, and I remember that taste right when that happened. That's sweet candy. Before you can get your hands on drugs. When you're just getting your hands right, you can get your hands on it like I shouldn't be doing or like you get a little bit lightheaded. Yes, yeah, it's funny. My daughter is almost three and she was spinning the other day. She was smoking a clove the other and she was spinning and got dizzy, and I

made a joke. I was like, spinning, that's the gateway drunk. That's the first one. Because you could see it in her eyes. She was a little drunk and she was like this feels kind of good. Yeah, it's like that's where it's sucking. Starts your eye on that one spinning. Uh So this movie was the um I think, only the third film in history to win the Big Five,

which is just amazing. And and if you consider this a horror movie, which I don't fully, but it's the first movie of this type to win Best Picture ever. Uh And since so one obviously pictured director, actor, actress, and screenplay. Um So it wasn't just like I think, in anyone else's hands, it could have been just a

little tawdry thriller. But like DEMI was such a master and I was so sad when when he passed away because he was I think one of the more underrated filmmakers of his time, and that whole thing of you know, he to really fight to do that thing where talking straight into camera. Yeah, they fought him on that, I think from when I saw some documentary, but I can't remember if it was the studio or what the situation,

or if it was other people on. But that was his vision that kind of a lot of people didn't believe it, and he basically got Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins to believe this was going to be the best way to do it. And I feel like that's everything in that movie. Is it totally is they're talking to you when she walks up, You're walking up when he says hello, Clari's you know, like that moment, it's happening

to you. And it's not just the Hannibal character, like he does that with Scott Glenn and all the Sheriff's deputies in the room, Like he has all those first person shots where you're Jody, where you're Clarice for a moment you feel what it's like. I love that that scene where she has to that's such a They do so many things. I love that they show she is a beginner and she has to try out these things.

She's not automatically great at everything. So that whole thing where she has to tell what eleven like Sheriff's decay, her family would thank you if they could. That whole speech she has to get where she never done that before, and she has to she has to assert herself and then afterwards telling him like it matters. They look to you,

it matters. It was like sudding like that when I noticed for the first time last night when I watched it that she turns around to put the stuff under her nose for smelling like even that as a private moment and it's like it's embarrassing. Well, and in that autopsy scene, she just uh, like I agree, making her a rookie or a student even it was just a stroke of genius because when she's in the autopsy scene, she she gets that ship together so fast and sorry,

is that next door? Is that torturing a dog? Okay, it sounds like something bad? All right, baby picking up. So during the autopsy scene, she gets her ship together so fast that uh, And I've seen it so many times, but different things like stand out, and that one really stood out is this is a scene that was making the men in the room sick. And she turns around and it's right there and she's like, all right now, now it's time for me to do my job. Yeah,

I have to have the job I don't even have yet. Yeah, I have to level up and be in charge. And also it's the thing that is what good mentors do is they make their their um ment. He's kind of like,

do the hardest possible thing so that they learn. And the way she is talking into that tape recorder, it's she's not being the way uh, Scott, the Scott Glung character would be Um, she's you can hear her voice great hang, and she's emotional and she's describing these horrible things, but she's also like trying to keep it under wraps. It's just and she does. I just Jodie Foster is such an unsung I mean, she's pretty song, but I feel like she's levels and levels above what people appreciate

her for. It's almost like it's so natural for her that people don't notice how fucking great she is. She's like, I put a, Yeah, she does, and she makes it look real, so it's like there isn't a bunch of extra eyebrows or whatever. And emotional moments I put a. I tweeted a joke the other day and it was like, am I really going to eat popcorn again for dinner? And then I put up the gift of her going yes,

And it's that. But the reason that gift is so perfect is because she has a single tear sitting on her eyelid, her bottom eyelid right here that hasn't dropped and probably never dropped. So it's the end of the actual are the lamb still screaming scene? And she doesn't do anything except for her eyebrows come together a little bit sadly and she just goes, yeah. But she doesn't like micro micro it's such good. You know why. It's

because she's fucking holding that tear. She's sucking that tear in and concentrating only on not showing that tear fall. That's like the feeling you get watching it right, because she can't. She shows that to Hamble Letter like she has to tell him the worst story that he wants. He wants the tears, and she has to give him just enough to get out to get to the next step. But she can't like fall victim or prey to him. Got that dance like I didn't realize until the other day.

The way this is first described when Scott Glenn says what he wants her to do. He calls it an interesting errand she's like, is it an you know, a job or something. He's like, it's an interesting errand like, fucking are you kidding me? Talk about under selling something? Yeah, And that first shot of him when the camera's going down that fucking dungeon hallway and he's just standing there so like erect and still just like chilling, like like

chicken skin right now. And you know that was his choice, and those are like acting choices and just play it all like that. He was going to be very formal, and he was going to be very professional with her, and he was going to be very kindly. And then then that contrast when he's like and all that ship is like then, because he really is he's a super genius, is this doctor and he's a manipulator. Yeah, so he's

like a genius. Wouldn't sit there and be like acting like a vampire, or they wouldn't make no sense, like you have to hide and plain sight, dr Lecter. So like the whole I think his hands behind are behind his back, aren't they. Yeah, he's just sort of standing. It looks like a statue and the only thing moving is his eyes following her. But that dance that it sets up with those two, it's just it's like cinema history like unfolding right there in front of your eyes.

So good, so great, people will think we're in love. One of the great lines of that movie. Elusive so great. Uh. And and before that, you know they set up with the Creek doctor Chilton, who was really the villain of the movie. Yeah, you know, like one of the great movie villains. Is that guy again another like an unsung character actor killed that you don't think for one second that guy isn't real totally totally, and he's one of those dudes that he's cast in that movie and he

can only be that forever for me. Yeah, yeah, all. I think everyone in that movie, unfortunately, some of like the bitter poor guy. That's who you are. And he's had a good career, but like it's he managed to overcome that. I think he did one of the cop shows, right, he's on Monk. Okay, I never watched Monk. He's actually done. He's probably done more than months. He was also on he was just on The Alienist. He was one of

the guys on The Alienist. I haven't seen that yet, but I know your recommendation is what makes me want to watch it. Who was he read the book? He was the he was like the I think he had been at the retired police Captain or something. He was like he'd always be driving around in a carriage and pulling up and telling people what to do and not to do. I gotta go back. He's got the kind of a big blonde mustache, but that voice, like when

I first saw him in Monks. My mom used to love monks, so it was always always be on my horse. But the first time he's like, it's like always times about You're like, I can't, you can't be in Monks. You have people in your basement. Yeah, you know what I didn't pick up on. This is another thing that he was the son, right that the son of whoever was living in the house. Oh, yes, or no, Oh, I don't think he was, because he goes she had a son. The son I think was the person in

the bathtub. No, that was her. She had like long hair. She was an old lady in the bathroom. Did she Oh, I don't know what her name MSUs. I don't know. I thought he was another guy that could also, so he was. I think he was her son she had. I don't know. I thought you guys were to answer all these questions for me that I never thought that, But it was only because I had already. And I don't know if I got that from the book, if I made it up that he worked with her, he

worked for her as a tailor. Well, I think it was her in the bathtub. Because she had long otld Lady gray hair got that bathtub. I'm sorry that was so out of left field. No, I don't know the answer to that, and I should because the host Benjamin. I'm just gonna say that every time I don't know something. My favorite is any time I need to use a phone, which is rare because we all have phones. But I love to say, you see a murdering made to fucking cross stitch with that on it and posted it today,

May I use your phone? And please? And there's another quote from that that she made a cross like a you know, embroidery. Oh, I have to see I haven't seen it yet. I know. Ridiculous, isn't it? Because it's people who like they like true crime, but they also like arts and crafts, very high level. Well we heard recently. This is a random aside. But our listeners the thing they like, they like the podcast, and the thing they

like next is books and reading. So it's just this perfect thing of smart people like doing after you cool shit and reading and having good ideas and being legitimately funny. Yeah, it's exciting. Hey, everyone, we took a little potty break and I think we were talking about what's in the tub, Mrs because Karen is currently looking it up. We need

to get to the bottom of this. UM. I just clicked on whatever the first um website is, so it's it's definitely I'm gonna get mad when I hear her name because I'm gonna um it's presumably Mrs Lipman's body has been festering in that old tub for the better part of two years. That's right, he's Mrs Lipman's son because he names Jamie Gum Jane Gum Jamee Gum creep here does Oh yeah, you're right, y j a m E. Okay, so who is he to her? I think he was her employee? Okay, okay, so he worked as a But

then where's her sons? What it was? Is it? Yeah? All right, Doug coming in with I'm finally not alone. Uh. But also that's kind of the fascinating thing is that like he is he's basically this weird parasite that took over that house, Yeah, killed her, and then did he dig that basement to come with a dungeon? And he's like this is this is perfect? Now? So one of the more more iconic parts, well, first of all, real quick.

I do have a note here when they first meet, when lecturing and Claric's first meet, it's even creepier when he's smelling you know, eddy and skin cream, and he doesn't smell the perfume she's wearing. He smells the perfume she usually wears, which adds a whole extra layer of like, yeah, which is pretty great. Yes, he's a super taster for sure.

Doctor literally literally such a perfect like sequence there when they first meet, and then we get the well, she goes to the garage with a head in the jar. That's Benjamin Raspan. That whole My dream is just go through that the real life, that garage minus the head. There's so many good so many good items, like things with fringes on in the back, and you're like, whose house was this? Like where's the stuff from? Have you ever done that? Like an explored an abandoned place like that?

That's my dream. I go to a state sales a lot, but they're not breaking houses a lot, but I don't take anything. My brother and I used to do that. My dad took pictures of like countrysides when we were kids, so he would drag us out to these old abandoned barns and things, and my brother and I would like scavenge and run around from Orange County where everything is fucking just built up and and mapped out. Didn't have

old farms. We didn't have that utu. We had that in peddlement every because we also lived five miles out of town, so it was like basically every field as you walked down had a like a chicken coop that was listening to one side because it was so old.

And I, yeah, we used to walk through there and there would just be old leftover farm equipment, blades and hooks and ships, and we just like walked through and pick stuff up and down and walk away where it's like now because somebody should have been taken care of totally. There's like dust and bird shit and just definitely, Yes, Yeah, Hannibal kills megs Um in a way talk talks Aim

into it. Yeah, talks him into swallowing his tongue, which is the first sort of little bit of magic in their relationship in a weird way because you get the senses of you were like he's like protecting her, Yeah, yeah, punishing megs from being ungentlemanly. He has he has a moral code just not standard, right, but it is there. There are things he will not accept in things that he you know, lines that heat crosses. He like he

respects her from the beginning. I think, yes, but how hard would it be to go he understands how hard that was for her? But also how how manipulative must he be if all he has to do is whisper to the cell next door and get someone to kill themselves. I mean, yes, it's a psychopath, but is that in the book, Like what he says, what he says to Meg's Yeah, not that I remember. I would say no, But I'm not positive, all right, because I always wanted

to know, Like what is selector fucking saying? He says while you're talking in all these different accents. It tastes great, just try and uh and so at the end of fact one, of course, it's funny too as a writer, like you can like set your clock by it, like right at that thirty minute mark is when we like our story is all set up and he is on board to help her collect and catch buffalo bill, yeah, like from his dungeon cell. And that just sort of

sets the whole story in motion. And then immediately smash cut to American Girl by Tom Petty. Yeah, and the best casting when she when in any movie, have you seen a girl that looks like Katherine Martin in that way where it's just she is. It's not some starlet, it's a real girl that you want to high school that you know, that's real. That's everything in that movie

is just so perfect. She pops up a lot, and every time I see her, I just think, American Girl, don't get in the van, don't do it, get me out of here, you bid, don't help you here. Well, I mean that's what you guys preach like over and over and over is don't do that. Don't help the guy,

not at night, not with a van. And that's like prime example, when your cat's hungry upstairs, I know, and it's so creepy, like you know, get in and like just a little further back, you're not gonna be like, oh, this is the point where I'm not gonna help you anymore. You're not going to do that in like probably had

an inkling. She's getting shock like she does go yeah, okay, okay, yeah that's right and kind of laughs a little like chilling and heartbreaking and it is also anyone that follows true crime that saw that move for the first time, it's just like, right now, we're in a combination. But this is Ted Bundy, like textbook Ted Bundy. Yeah, this is how he got all of those women to get into his sailboat thing, which is broken arm and was

always helping him do something. Yes, and then you go, she'd go with him to the car and well, oh, my sailboats. Actually I thought, you knew, just come with me to my house. That's where I need help. And he was handsome, so he was able to charm their way in handsome and like I think, low key, you know,

like he was. He was. It's that thing where people think if you're around, uh, like a psychopath, that you're going to get a vibe of psychopath, when in fact, because there's brilliant psychopaths, they're ever going to give you that vibe. You will never see it coming from mile away. That's how they do it. We were raised not to be rude and say, oh, funk, this guy's giving a weird vibes. I'm gonna get the funk out of here.

Be like, you know what, never mind, that's why you're doing a service like key rude if you have to be Yah, we did the Stuff you should Know episode on sociopaths and had people right in, like sociopaths right in and say, please don't share this. I'm a sociopath, and um, I basically spend my days pretending that I'm not, and I have to fake laugh and I have to fake myself in meetings at work. And I have a family and I've talked to my son about it and

like we're open about it. And it's this fucking chilling to read, but also like it's good that they know this and that they are dealing with it. But it's just the majority aren't murderers too, and with different sociopathy and psychopathy or two different things, but not It's there's a fine line, it's very close. It's very close. Well.

And also I think it's such if you're a sociopath and you don't have essentially it's like you don't have empathy, you don't have that connection, right, So it you are making a choice to care enough to fake lass, right. That's what's interesting to me is that's you know, that's the divergence there is like who raised you that you know to do that, or you want to do that as opposed to wanting to go I want to do

whatever I want. Yeah. Yeah, we had a woman with a daughter that wrote in who was a sociopath and it was just really interesting and fascinating and sad. Yeah they're born that way, right, you know? Yeah? All right that the uh so Jodie Foster Clares is getting tested

through the entire movie. I feel like it's it's just one giant test after test after test from either Scott Glenn Um and I feel like when I first used to watch that movie, I didn't think he was taking care of her enough, But now as an adult, I'm like he was probably kind of doing the right thing, trying to bring her along to be a good FED. I didn't understand until they watched it recently that he wasn't hitting on her Like I didn't guess that there

wasn't actually sexual h undertones. There weren't, right, No, I don't think so I do. But um, well, for me, I always felt it was of course he couldn't do that. So he's a FED. He's like the person that can turn off his feelings and he has to for the job and all that but I do feel like he picked her because he admired her. He knew her story, and he knows she's this fucking orphan that that is a self made man, and he knows how picked her. She's trying and she challenged him in his class too, yes,

and that's right at the beginning, you learned that. Yeah, he remembers her, and so he's like, this is he passed to to have a woman. There probably aren't that many to choose from, but he knows the work she's been doing. Yeah, I think it's that. Yeah, right, And he sets her up by not telling her at the very beginning and he was like, you know, I couldn't tell you that, right, which was right, exactly right, but

I didn't. I think it took me being an adult watching this movie, even though I've seen it like kind of probably every year since i've seen it, but it kind of finally hit home, like he's probably doing the right thing as a boss, Yes, for sure, to train her in the right way. You don't get trained by like what's what you want it to be. It's like you have to go in there and do the job

that needs to get done and then learn something. And I mean the way I love the way when she first goes to see him, like that whole conversation she has with Barney where he's like calming her down, and the more he tries to calm her down, the crazier it makes me feel. It's like, how bad is this going to be? That you are being this like? And I'm gonna watch you and everything's fine and we're fine. But it's like, clearly nothing's fine if you're this like,

you have to be this calming. I just think that there's that It's that like watching a person, which is also a lot like life where we're students, but then we actually have to go and like really live it and do something real and it's not gonna who knows what it's really going to be like, but you have to go try. Yeah. Like the most lame, innocuous version of that is you can take Princh classes till the cows come home, but until you go live in Paris for a year. Uh and um, this is a coastal

elite talking. That was my reference. You really just got to live in Paris. Oh my god, you love the Es so much. It's true, you have you can't run around on Quantico with the rest of your life. There's like extra scenes in that movie. And there is the scene where they run the drill and go and you know, swat into the room and she's dead. Yeah she doesn't. I don't know that. It doesn't look in a corner.

Yeah there, And that's not an extra scene. It's there to be like she's not ready for you know that she still needs training, but for some reason she's being thrown into this other world. And that foreshadowing. Then when you when she when he dips around that corner weird like and she's like just stop right there or whatever. You know that this is a person who already you're dead starling like, yeah, this is she's going to die.

That's what you know for a fact. Because if she didn't pass it when it was fake, how in God's name no, I mean, how brilliant. It's a perfect movie. It's perfect, it really is. There's not a wasted shot. Everything has relevant. God, that score looks so good. And every time I hear American Girl, it's the only thing

I think that's a Tom Petty. So that's hard to do. Yeah, it is to to overcome Tom Petty's Tom pettiness, and I feel like there are directors who could have made that night vision goggle scene um really cheesy, Like it could have kind of gone off the rails and turn into it like an action movie. Her breathing, like I almost had a panic attack when I saw it in the theater for the first time because it's so realistic. When she's like, yeah, have you ever won those night

vision goggles? No, but I think there's a I think there's an help. You can simulate it. Yeah, you have night vision camera on your phone. Really, that's frightening. I know it's probably some kind of simulation because the technology is not there hopefullly known nefarious, nothing nefarious is happening there. Yeah. My brother in law's in the Marines, and so he let me play with them one night when I was like seventeen, like walk around this neighborhood. It was pretty cool.

Was it crazy? Yeah, it's amazing. Could you see tons of ship? It mean, it looks just like the movie, like it operates on available light. Though he can't be in pitch darkness. It'll it just amplifies like a candle light times or whatever. Thousand. So um, I guess I don't know if that's a mistake in a movie or not, because I don't think there's maybe there's some light down there. There's got to be something. There's a little bit of it from his weird sewing room. Oh, right under the door,

maybe with a Nazi blanket, fast blanket. Again. I never noticed that. It's it's so unnerving where you're just like, Okay, this is weird. I don't like that he's putting on lipstick and talking in this weird voice. I don't like that. And then you just like passes by a thing where you're like, oh, this is not okay, Yeah, this isn't I didn't notice. Another thing I didn't notice is that he's wearing someone else's scalp when he's in front of the camera. Oh is that right? Yeah, the penis tux

when he's number one. Yeah, when he's putting the eyes shadow on, there's piece of scalp. And his hair is he's got full blonde. That's right. I think I noticed that. I was just assumed it was a wig. Nope, it's there's a piece of fucking scalped. I have not noticed that. I believe, like you need to see this. Wow, that's good. I've watched this movie. My wife and are obsessed with

this movie too. And it was on like whatever five or six months ago, and I was in the bedroom and she didn't know was on, and she was in the kitchen doing something and that scene was on and I paused it right at that moment and just sort of left it on the TV. And then she she walked in and looked and it was just like, oh Jesus, how cool it would be, Like, like, listen if someone is at a dive bar with me and puts on that song on the fucking jukebox, creepy song and win awards.

I can hear it. What song is that loves Jezebel? Yeah, I think it is. It's a bit obscure, but you can't hear that song and immediately Like sometimes I can hear American Girl and not think of that. Yeah, but there's no way you can hear that song without thinking of the penis duck, like one of the creepier scenes I've heard. Well, now you know that he's also wearing scout. Yeah,

well I gotta I gotta watch it yet again. And he has he has the worst voice, Like I'm my apologies to that actor, but it's like his voice is so deep it feels like something's wrong, there's something in your road. Well she breaks the case. That's right. She's the one that discovers that in the picture. Yeah, you know, which is how we meet up with the nerds. Yeah, I didn't. They're more. They were at through graduation there dating. Well, they're friends. I don't know if there and I think

they're friends, good friends. She probably is dating Ardelia Map, her roommate. Then she's doing them. But still I love that they're friends. Like she she's going to build a little life there. And she was the only person who like, yes, came on to her, but not in a creepy way. He was cute flirting. It was sweet fling. Are you flirting with my doctor? My friend Demie. I just should say this. My friend Damie O'Neill truly is watched this

movie hundreds of times and knows every single word. And one time she and I were in Wisconsin or something, and I went to see her band and then we went back to my ruined it came on and she had to say every line, like especially in the pauses, and she turned to me and she was I'm so sorry, and I'm like, I love this. It was hilarious. It's

so good. Yeah, And well he talks um speaking of his voice earlier with the couchine and everything, but the first time we really get that voice is you know, it puts solution in the basket, and the way he's saying it is and the way he's sitting on the edge of the whatever, it's just the fucking creepiest thing ever talking about it, Yeah, just referring to her as it was just chilling, and then the screaming at the end when he's mocking her screaming, Yeah, look at this

woman screaming. It's so chilling. Sy and the is that the part, oh yeah, because that's the part where the basket goes back up and she sees the fingernail blood right, which is like it's those things he understood so much. That horror isn't like a an than the eye. It's like a bloody fingernails sitting on this thing, which we had just heard about when they were doing the her nails. Something is under her nails. This is city, this is city.

That fingernail well, but also like she's I get it, that's chilling to see the fingernails because she knows other women have been there, but like she knew what was going to end well anyway, right, I guess that was the straw escape. There's no escape. That was when she truly realized that other people have not escaped from the same well. And she was very sweet to take that dog at the end too. I know, I loved unless she went home and like strangles the ultimate, but I

do love that that. Uh. I love that she was down in that well. There was no escape, there's a bloody fan, and she still made a plan and she didn't funk around. It was like Katherine Martin was nailed it in that way. We're just like, I'm still going to do something if I have to be down here and it's this bad. And then it kind of worked like that was a big you know, it's so good.

Every nobody scrapped asshole. So they wind up in the third act lectures in that that amazing set that they built, that temporary cage, which makes no sense, makes no start question, with so many, so many weapons, possible weapons. Yeah, it's like I saw that. Have you ever been to the

Museum of Moving Image in Queens New York. It's great. Well, they I went to see a Madman exhibit a few years ago there, but they had a they had all the original artistic drawings of that set um for the set designer, and they had the shot there, the drawing, the like the penciling of him like you know, like like with angel wings way up, which also makes no sense whatsoever that he could have gotten him up there. But you just don't even question that kind of ship

because it looks amazing. And I do think it was from the book from what I remember. I could be wrong, but I feel like that whole thing of we had to we were moving him from here to there, we have to stop here. We have to do a makeshift, you know, swap team style cage or whatever. Um, I'm pretty sure which they fared from the local zoo presumably you know, the human cage we could rent it from from. Let's give him some privacy when he's on the toilet. Yeah,

it's it's only deep humanity. That whole sequence is great, though, the only thing that kind of took me out of the movie is when Chris Isaac weirdly shows up. Oh ship, Oh my god, that's Chris Isaac. Yes, it's Chris Isaac. Inexplicably it's Chris. It's Chris Isaac, who's like, I'm a huge musician star at the time, but I feel like I want to dip my talent into acting. Oh here I get three lines in this movie I don't even wrong,

which could make sense for Chris Isaac. Yeah, he must spend with Jonathan Demis because Demi puts a lot of his little pals like in his movie. He also looks a lot like what's our villain? Who's the leader of the psychiatric hospital? Oh? Dr Chiltern? Yeah, I think they look too similar to be together, and like personally I was I saw his face and it's really similar. Oh that's true, similar to who Dr Dr Chilton? Oh yeah, there's like fleshy angles and stuff fling. Sorry, Crecise, I

love you. Actually, my friend Brent, I'm friend, is very generous, a guy that used to drink at the same bar. We used to drink out friend who was a really close friend of mine. He was like there was stand up comics, there was Groundlings people, and there was actors, gang people who would all go to this bar Felini's in the nineties it's very fun. Brent is one of

those um Swat team guys. He's the kind of like he's almost like it's going back down, Like he's the elevator, younger looking guy that looks a little bit like you shouldn't be involved in Yes, the one who walks her up. He takes her up initially holy ship. And so that took me out of it because I was so excited by the time we got to that point in the movie. I was like, this is the best movie ever made. And then Brent show friends you get sign Yeah, yeah,

that is weird. Uh So I didn't notice until and I've seen this movie so many times, but Lecture kills fucking seven people in the first hour that he gets out of that thing kills two cops, four and the ambulance because they say they found the ambulance and and so whoever's recapping and they said end of Tourists, they just throw that in on the phone. Seven people in an hour. As soon as he's out with that brilliant plan with the with the pin clip or whatever, she's

just so creepy slipping that thing in his mouth. Yeah. God, it just has that shot at the pen and you see him looking at This is not gonna end well for anyone. Uh. And then the end that that cross cutting sequence at the end of the movie, um is so brilliantly played out. I don't know why this didn't win Best Editing because it was just such a clever

bit of misdirection. You don't see I don't know what's going on which part because you they're the swat team is going yeah, and she's like dang dong, gorgeous and fresh off Proderica Bemmel's house. Right, she was like basically met the friend, creepy as polaroids, and she thinks that they're a couple states over catching the guys. Seems where he's still out here, right, He's not out here anymore.

They're take care of it. Yeah, But she, because she's clearly starling, starts to sniff it out and he well, of course the classic line she did great person fourteen roomy yeah. Uh. And then the other creepy part of that scene has went. The way he drops those business cards, just lets them fall away in his hands, and then he like he giggles and but he goes sideways like hip first the door specific move not right like what I mean, you just did it looks like you made

yourself look like a snake being on the planet. And then we passed up. Well, first we pass over the sewing stuff and there's a sucking death head moth creeping on over them, and that's her moment of because this guy is not right. Clearly there's something wrong. Yeah, But when comes full circle, she's being she's already being just normal,

asking questions. Then she said, use your phone please. She just perfectly does it the way you would do it if you were face to face with a fucking serious trying to keep a lid on it your phone, and you get the feeling because she's so good. She's probably right as she walks in, like, this feels like a kill house. Yeah, but they're getting him in another state,

but this feels like a kill house. That design is fucking amid Like I feel like in another life I'm supposed to be a set designer because I'm always like the pan of eggs that's like on the stove and it just says weird little touches of clearly this is someone else's how Yeah, that hasn't been lived in or walked in, or clean or cleaning, and it's like, yeah, it's it's quiet and still compared to what's going on downstairs, it's just so great. And he's just he's almost unpeeling

his own wrapper because she's just asking regular questions. But then he's like, oh, wait, we're sorry. Where she he's doing things where she's like wait, why did you Yeah, and he keeps you know, like asking this the way

to catch that? Yeah, I think, yeah. Well, and because of the misdirection and they're breaking into the wrong house, like you know, as a viewer, she's all alone, and that's just such a like a vulnerable feeling as a as an audience member to know that this rookie student is in front of like the worst serial killer ever and she's got no backup, like nobody's coming, nobody's coming. Also, I think that the going into Frederica Demo's room scene is one of my favorite scenes of ANUE move Be

because she is just trying to collect information. She doesn't know, she doesn't have a plan, and she kind of goes up and is looking around and it's this thing of like it's it's that thing of like why women should

be cops. It's like when you go into another woman's room where you know where her fucking underpants, polaroids are hid, anyone you know where you hit your ship, you know what's often what stage because you would never leave your ship exactly, and the like all of those things that they they she I think she even follows the cat up. It's like she's the cat me out is from her room.

The cats like coming too, this fucking so they like there are things in there that they did that It's like it's not all just horror, it's not all just action. It's like there's just this. There's that kind of how how it is. I think when people work on things and it's like you don't really know why you turn to left and went into that room, the cat me out or whatever, but suddenly you're here and and oh, she has the same jewelry box I had. Why has

this edge pull? And like that moment where she pulls the top out of that jewelry box was like as a girl is like thrilling. It's like, yes, this is exactly how it would be. This is the realness of it, and it's very like a twin peaks the moment I think too or I don't know which came first probably twin Peaks, right, I don't know. Um, they are actually kind of a right around the same time because it was like early college for me. Yeah, like the secrets

that women keep, the secret that girls keep, that's right. Yeah, dude would not have he would have walked in that room and like nothing to see here, right, just like cleared a shelf of his arm and then walked up and also parted and then left looking around making sure the dad's still outside, pushing back to the dresses in

the closet, and the diamond pattern was like chilling, Yeah, amazing. Uh. And then we get the great night vision scene where you know that the creepy shu ever is when he's reaching out to her and just kind of like sucking with her and she can feel him like you can sense after she's told Katherine like it's all good, yeah, and yelling it loud enough other way like that's so real, Like I'm so glad you're here. It's like real, Yeah,

I don't want to sit tight. Yeah. Yeah, while this you know, twenty one year old who have never made with a little gun, and you don't know how crazy she's like he's a psycho don't all go after him. Also, the way she was trying to do like form perfect, dipping her head into the well to talk to her, shutting all those doors, like yeah, she's she's her training is like kicking at this point. But it's the creepiest training room she's ever been, Like, it's beyond horrifying. Yeah.

And then every room she goes into, because every room she goes into his answers and it's got to be so exciting to be like, and this is where he's been keeping them, this is you know what he's doing with them, this is how he got to this. You know, it's like every room it's it's like a escape room. It's sot and so filled with fucking molds. And don't die because no, you have the answers. Yeah, if you just don't die, you can actually get this guy right

or I'm going to be in that fucking well with Catherine. Yeah. Um, And I think now that we talked about the cat part,

now I have that same word. It's like that is a little bit of the laced through intuition magic thing that got laid in a little bit where it's in the instinct so that when she hears his the gun cock she has that, you know what I mean, She's she trusts herself because she's already been right, she's already proven it right where it's like, however you get to the answer, you got to the answer, so trust yourself that you're right. And she blows his ass away, destroys

his whole situation the way he dies. What a beautiful to ask. Yeah, and he doesn't, you know, it's not the trope thing where he comes back to life, which was great. That would have been away, which is so cool. Yeah, that training kicking in. Yeah, now she's like, oh, I get why you do this. I can't wait to shut all the doors. I get it. And we didn't even talk about the senator scene, which is one of the great scenes that talk about art directions building That fucking

furniture dolly that he was gets so iconic. Have you seen there's a thing where they test out all the masks there there's lots of choices of what what kind of hockey mask? Like what kind of masks they were

fine to use? And it's just funny. It's like Anthony Hopkins with the What I do believe about that scene is that he is in this humiliating powerless position and the scene ends with him having all the power despite that, and it's just such a testament to him and his acting in the script and it's really cool and like his as doctor Lector, it's all about his words, the way he uses words. But like he destroy her. Yeah,

and trax Island you will be free to well. Uh and then the great Danie Mall at the end with um with him. You know you're rooting for Hannibal to fucking eat Chilton. It's some bit of magic that Demi pulls where you're like, yeah, go kill and eat that guy. You know why we couldn't figure out why he was there,

like get there. I think he was just vacation, getting away a weird trip, Okay, he and maybe he I think he said something to the guy when he gets off the plane that maybe said like he was there for a conference or something like that, but like a psycho psychiatrist conference, yeah, or which was in Brazil, I guess, or something in Cuba. You didn't know where that was it may say, I'm not even sure. Ends up calling this random phone at graduation Yeah, sure, yeah, that p

that's brick by the graduation every year. But that's a great moment though when he says, you know, the world's more interesting with you in it. And that's the nature of their relationship, Like he doesn't want to kill her full father daughtery. Well, it's like he's he makes choices about who he kills, so there's almost you almost respect. He's just not some berserking animal. He's like gentlemen. And he won't take he won't take credit for killing hester Momfett, right,

like he doesn't want these number about me. Yeah, it's a really it's not about that. My favorite of all the when I was looking through the gifts, um, and there's some great ones. There's one that somebody made where when it's the reveal of when that that wall ends and you can see his cell, they put all these like hot topics posters behind him, so like right behind him there's a Hello Kiddie poster, so hilarious, Like every inch of his walls or government placed that was not

post are the best. Sometimes that's great, um. And that's the end of the movie. Uh, you know that he's gonna and she says, you know, you know, I can't promise you that, Like he knows that She's gonna come after him. She knows that. But that's like part of that, Like the beautiful dance that to me creates from the beginning, just so great. All right, we finished with a couple of quick things. What Ebert said this movie is a complete disappointment. I would like to go back and see

what Roger Ebert thought. Four stars of course for this year. The secret of Silence is that it doesn't start with a cannibal. It arrives at him through the eyes and minds of a young woman. The popularity of Jonathan Demi's movie is likely to last as long as there is a market for being scared Amen. But Silence of the Lambs is not merely a thrill show. It is also about two of the most memorable characters in movie history,

Clarice Starling and Hannibal Lecture and their strange, strained relationship. Yeah, and then five questions. First movie you remember seeing in the theater Back to the Future Pete's Dragon, that was like, it's probably five, right, really young Disney, I think I was. I think it was I was five. Went Back to the Future came out and it was just like, well, fuck, my life is this is it? Yeah, that's crazy. That's

a good first one. First are raided movie. I think you already said, yeah, um, oh god, I don't know what year came out. I want to. We just watched so much ship um that I can remember. What's the one with the killer toy. Child's Play? Oh yeah, that's a terrible movie to see as a child was my favorite. This is literally no supervision. I just want to Little Darlings and Child's Play. Will you walk out of a

bad movie? Hell? Yes. I stormed out of Van Helsing because also I saw at the Vista, and you know, sometimes the Vista, when they get it right, it's perfect. But in this, because there was so much glingling sword fucking playing, it was like it was it was like my ear drums were like, please get us out of here. And I had told I was with my boyfriend at the time and my other friend and I kept going, it's too loud, I can't and I kept saying they were like, and I just fucking got up and left

and drove home. I was like, get home on your own. I'm so livid. It was a boring movie. Anyway, it was like it was physically painful to watch. Yeah, I never saw that, but my friend Scottie, who's a DP said he had a forward review Van Helsing Van Horrible, which we still laugh at today. For some reason, you walk out, I will, But I also it's really hard to get me to go see a movie in the theater. I really don't enjoy it, partly because of the sound.

I have, like a really sensitive hearing. I think the only movie I've seen with you is the Mad Max movie recently. Yeah, just want the only movie. Yeah, I had stand in my seat with ship in my ears, but I was enjoying it, So I say you should get you know, they make ear plugs for bands that oh they fit you specifically right, well, they fit you, but they also allow in the right sounds, so it's not just like sticking your fingers in your ears. They're okay,

they work alright, highly sensitive. We'll get you something not about murder that I'm fine with that. Uh alright. Number four I tailored to the guests. So right here I have who plays Karen and Georgia and the my favorite murder bio. I think it's a Gilmer girls. Right, it's about to go. Well, Jodie Foster could come back. F oh, my god, that she just switches wigs and it's straight into camera. Also here stand here and she moves her body.

It's not even I guess if they can do that with the fucking Winkle Boss Twins, double up Army Hammer and they can double u Jodie Foster's. And then finally a movie going one on one? What's your what's your jam at the movies? Where do you sit? What do you get? Mine? Is I love the arc Light' I hope it's not really scientologist based, because that a theory. Now that's a theory that it's basically a company that funded by or scientology makes money. But I don't care

because normal movie theaters is just the worst people. It's like people go to check their phones these days. It's like everyone's got so ill mannered the movie theater. So I love the arc Light because they take it seriously. They take it's cushy. Everybody's there to actually do the thing that you're supposed to be doing. People don't like talk or funk around. Um always on the aisle usually if you're facing if I'm the screen looking up right hand side, like halfway up, um, but all the way

up to the edge. Huh yeah, because you need to peepee, or because I don't want to get out of there. The ideas when you stand and have to walk down that row at the end and you kind of bounce against everything. I just always like, what is something happened? Just kick over, just like I just want to get out. Well,

it is funny as like as I get older. Uh, group of Swinton saw Beck in Atlanta recently at this place called the Tabernacle, which has this old church that has three really steep balconies were on the very last row, and young Chuck would have just been like, yeah, whatever, like these seats are shitty. Old Chuck was like, we're gonna die if anything happens in here. Yeah, if there's a fire, if there's if things start happening. For many reasons, I can't go to the movies. I'm like, we're dead.

Well what happened right now? Yeah? So many bad things? Yeah, Um, what do you eat? Oh? I like, well, if I'm really going to go for it, I'll get popcorn and then put Eminem's into it. I was going to that with the usually plain okay, yeah Jenior mints and that the popcorn is a nice mix to mixed gen mints in I'll put them in my hand together because it'll melt to otherwise, right, poor good together. Yeah that's what Lauren Cook does. Oh oh my god, that's what. And

a can of wine that I bring my person. Yeah, they have and movies. I don't have to smoke pots, so I can't like get high. I mean, that's the other reason to go to the Arc Light, as you just drive up to the roof and get your get done whatever you choose to get done in your smoke. Is there a secret bar, wasn't it. I don't love her anymore, so I don't know what's going on. They built like like right before I left. Oh yeah, but they have they have places in Atlanta that have just

regular theaters where you can buy beer and wine. Screenings at the arc Light where you can do that yeah screens, yeah yeah. Yeah. They think for old people. For certain it's like for certain shows they're like if this one they'll be drinking. Yeah yeah, but I have to piece so much when I drink, so I just couldn't do it because I don't want to miss much. Barry Diver and that's the perfect way to end this one. Thank you. Ladies,

So Much Fun. Movie Crash is produced and written by Charles Bryant and Meel Brown, edited and engineered by Seth Nicholas Johnson, is scored by Noel Brown here in our home studio at Pontsty Market, Atlanta, Georgia. For I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.