Dan Taberski on Working Girl

on the storytell think it's good to meet you. We just met like thirty seconds ago, so right. I learned you have small ears and that you hate storytellers totally, totally. That's all you need to know, Folks. Where are you from? Dan, New York? Originally born in Queen's Unk Territory and now you're in Brooklyn? Is that right? Right now? I'm in Brooklyn, but I live in Manhattan. I'm kind of curious about your I like to talk to guests about the movies of their youth and sort of what that what kind

of impact that had on them? Is his future entertainers or or even if it did, and was that something that were you sort of a movie obsessed kid or I was not. Isn't it funny? I was. I It never occurred to me to do to sort of make any sort of art. Um until well into adulthood. What was I started public policy in college? Um? Uh? Yeah, so I worked in politics for a while. I worked at the White House for two years right out of college. Um and then uh, and then went into UM to

journalism from there. So so I started, I started in politics, which I quickly realized was not for me. What which White House did you work in? It was a Clinton White House. I was the assistant to the president's economic advisor. Really okay, yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. Yeah, it was really hard uh and really intense and I answered a lot of phones. Uh and it was like,

um thrilling, but like incredibly difficult work. Now and I've spoken to another couple of people, including recently someone who worked in politics for a while where you're how how how did you go into that? Was it eyes wide open? And were they quickly were your I don't mean to say naive, but did you were you kind of smacked in the face with the reality of the situation. No, I you know, I sort of I understood, I think pretty well the politics of it, and politics and compromise

and all that stuff. What I didn't under stand is that being political and working in politics required you to be political on a personal level too. So it required you to collect people, collect friends, collect uh it required you to really be outgoing and um um always thinking about what relationships can do for you and help you to move things forward. And I don't even begrudge people who do that. It's just not the way I think.

And so I found that part to be a real slog like I don't want to I don't want to be I'm not that I'm not social enough in the simplest terms, I'm just I just don't want me that many friends. So uh So, is it a pretty quickly realized thing that like, I'm not gonna go far in

this world because I can't play that game. It was I I joined the Clai administration and I stayed through the election in ninety six understanding that it was a super literally, like, you know, there aren't many things that one does that feels like an honor, but it it really does. It really does feel like that to walk in the White House every day or at least it did for me, and so I, you know, the experience of doing that was great, but I but I sort of knew that I didn't have I didn't have what

it took to to to sort of be successful. And that was right out of college, so early twenties. That was. Yeah, it was my first job out of college besides pizzerie. You know, I was a waiter Atizzie you know. Yeah, where did you go from their career wise? Uh? And then I went h I moved to New York and I worked at NBC news Um for two and a half years or three years, and then from there I

went to the Daily Show. So I sort of had a a brief dalliance with with actual news um and then uh, my job quickly became making fun of the news of the Daily Show and and it sort of stayed in that sort of metau place. Now, was that with John Stewart was or was that still? Was that? Okay? It was, yeah, it was John. It was right when joh started. It wasn't with Craig Kilborn. He had he had left, and so I pretty much started when John started. Wow, that's cool, You're I've had a bunch of Daily show

people in the show. Yeah, now that you had Elliott Kalin right had Elliott on, I've had um Well, John Hodgeman's a pal of mine, so he's been on a few times. And I'm trying to think it seems like, uh, Dan from the Flophouse has been on. Uh what's the Flophouse? The Flophouse is Elliott's uh movie show? Oh yeah, he has the movie podcast, a bad movie podcast where they were in his palace talk about a bad movie. It's

pretty funny Dan Dan McCoy. I don't know why Dan slipping because dancer friend of mine too, And I don't know that one of the b I had Wyatt on Wyatt Sanac he was after my time. Yeah, and I've been trying to get Chad Carter's an old friend that I've been trying to get on. And I think Chad probably came on after you two. If he's an old friend, why won't he come on your show. I'm just it's been a minute and the pandemic kind of screwed everything up for a while. I'm just wondering if you're sort

of judging the friendship. Oh no, it's great. Jed's awesome. What was the Daily show? Like, was that were you producing segments? I was a producer. Yeah, so I would travel around with a correspondence and direct and write the segments with them. So yeah, super fun and thrilling and often scary because you know, you're you're very often you're you're fooling people. Um and and so that and that

was it was. That was early daily show days where people really didn't for the most part, people didn't really know what it was and they didn't sort of realize it until you're in the middle of it. So there's always like a light switch moment where they're like, oh, this is a joke. Um. And that could get yeah every once in a while, yeah, but usually I actually really uh, it gave me faith in people, Like of the time, people think it's great and people think it's

funny and they and they totally and they totally. Um. People have good sense of humor. Uh. And just as long as you're not taking them down for no reason. Um. But and you're sort of the joke. The target of the joke is something else besides them personally, Like, I'm always surprised at how people sort of are are happy to be part of a larger joke. Yeah, uh so inteen you really kind of I think turned the podcast world on its ear with Missing Richard Simmons seventeen. What

was it seventeen? Would I say fourteen? Yeah too? That unfourtune was serial? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that turned the podcasting world on it's here too, yeah yeah seen. Uh which, you know, what were your expectations for that show? Did you think it was gonna blow up like it did? No? I thought it was uh no, my gosh, no, I mean no, it just seemed like the small it was. It was like a small yeah that like you really don't have any any reason why people would listen to it, really,

if that makes any sense. And it felt like a well, it's well, it felt like a gesture that I was doing about this person that I thought was really important, special Richard Simmons. But but it it and then and then once it starts, once we started to put it out, it sort of attracted people in a way that we didn't expect. And then you realize you're sort of part of something that that isn't really yours anymore. Yeah, it

was really something else. I mean, it was, uh, it blew up in a really big way, and I imagine gave you sort of all the currency you needed in this new medium or new wish medium for you. I guess, uh, just sort of do whatever you wanted as a documentarian from that point, I mean, short answer, yeah, kind of, it really felt it did feel that way like it it felt like it had touched something and it either may maybe people either loved it or hated it, which

I think is sort of an interesting place to be. UM. It means you're sort of you're you're tweaking something right, like you're you're sort of flicking people's ears in a way that sort of makes people stand up a little bit. Um. And so yeah, and so it definitely gave me the opportunity to work with really good people after that and and and continue to Um. People would take chances on sort of weird ideas, and it's a great place to be. I love doing and it's it's it's amazing to have

people take chances on weird ideas. Yeah, and I think it was, you know, as someone who's been doing this for in my thirteenth year or so, it's interesting to see ideas come around that really shift the landscape of the industry, and I think Missing Richard Simmons is definitely

one of those. And you can always tell when you know, podcasts are so quick to market and you can that's one of the cool things about this medium, as you can get something out the door really fast, you know, unless it's super sort of long game research heavy, but then you can still sort of start telling that story if you want to. And so that's a cool thing.

But the weird part about that is that it lends itself to a lot of copycat material in content, I think and Richard and Missing Richard Simmons is one of those which is a compliment, but like it comes out and then I feel like a lot of people were like, oh my god, like, what's our missing Richard Simmons? Like and and maybe even sometimes as base of an idea is like who can we go out and try and find who was seemingly disappeared? Yeah, and then it's just

a scary impulse. Yeah, Like you don't want people doing that. Like that's not like like we took a big We were really deliberate and how we went into that project and I and I and I had enough information and and enough contact with the people who close to Richard and and and the people involved in his life that that I had certain I had certainty about things that I think, Um, we were just very we want to do it, very wide open and very considered, and I think I think it's a it's a and we we

walked a fine line for sure. And but yeah, I mean now, yeah, very often you hear like what happened to this guy? I get, I get, I get missing Britney Spears tweets all the time. People people want to know, like Dann go find Britney Spears, and I'm like, she's fine. I don't need that fight like she's isn't she in Las Vegas or something like. People have a real sense of like that that this was that it's not something I don't think it's something I would ever do again.

So it was just that that person in that situation, Um, it's definitely not a model that I've been asked to sort of recreate that model, and that was going to ask that. I'm sure, Yeah, it's not even something I mean, if it comes up, I guess, but like it's not, it would never happen again because I was I was the only reason I did that is because I knew Richard Simmons, and I was taking his class for a year and a half, and and it was I was sort of involved in that world, and so I wasn't.

I was much much, much less of an outsider than like a normal documentary would be. I don't think I would ever have the courage or the balls to like to do something like that if I didn't, if I, if I didn't know, if I, if I, if I was this coming in from the outside and parachuting in. Yeah, Another show that you've done, which I have yet to listen to, which I'm putting at the top of my list is Running from Cops, because Cops is this show that I, um and I never knew when it came

on it was. Cops is one of those shows it seems like it was always on, but if you were someone who flipped around a television dial, then you would run into it. And I felt like I ran into it a lot enough to watch it a lot without being someone who was like, Oh, it's whatever night, at whatever time, I got to check out Cops. And it's a show that that I feel bad for watching so

much now through today's lens. When I was you know, younger and in my twenties, and I was never like raw, raw, this is awesome, man, like you know what they're doing. It was just there was something about it, the spectacle of it. I was definitely into. And I would love to know a little bit more about this project. Yeah, I mean that was the point of the project. Is that I you know, I asked it that I've seen maybe five hundred episodes of Cops and this is before

the show. I mean, I just watched it. I'm somebody who grew up watching television as background noise, and so I just I'm used to having something on and um, and Cops is like perfect, it's on. It's it was at the time, it was on fifteen, sometimes twenty times a day. Yeah. Yeah, so you're not hot. Your senses do not lie. It literally is on all the time. And there is something as far as reality shows go, there was the sense that you really, you really are

watching something real. They're like that had the elements of reality, elements of realness to it that other reality shows don't have. And and and they also they're training their cameras on a on a world that you don't see, that you don't really see another reality shows like these are working class, poor neighborhoods and and people who aren't usually UM sort of featured in a way that you could sort of

hear or see about them. But then of course you realize, like it's it's and still the project was to explore that show. We watched, ultimately watched and analyzed and catalog eight forty seven episodes I think it was UM and just sort of trying to figure out how realist cops, what is it we were actually seeing UM and uh and uh, yeah, it's it's it's an incredibly fucked up show, UM that does incredibly fucked up things to the people

who are on it. UM. I have a complicated relationship to that show, but UM, but it was it was an analysis to exactly what you said, like why why am I watching UM? And how are they doing it? Like how are they allowed to how is it put together? And who's actually like sort of consenting to be a part of it? UM, And the answers to that are

are pretty intense. Man, so good, it's so good. Sorry, I'm not gonna I mean, I shouldn't say that about my own word, but I'm so proud of it and and um, and if you're interested in the show, it's just like about the history of of policing on television and reality shows and just and how it intersects with actual criminal justice and what what you actually think is

true versus not. Um. And it's been on for thirty years and so so it has the influence it has not just on on just on reality shows, but on policing. Like literally, cops become cops because of what they see on Cops and so the behavior that they're mimicking is the things that reality shows are telling them to mimic. It's it's sort of an incredible long term experiment that has gone horribly wrong. Yeah, I'm gonna be diving into that soon for sure. UM. I want to talk to

you about the line too. Now this is your this is Is it currently still in production? Uh? It's There was six episodes. The last episode aired a couple weeks ago early May. Um, where did this story come from? And where do your stories come from? Generally? Is it just literally whatever piques your interest? Running from Cops was my idea, Mr Richard Simmons, is my idea. And then I sort of found partners and collaborators to sort of make it with UM. The line was actually the first

one that wasn't my. It was brought to me by Apple and Alex Gibney, the director, and they asked me if I would be interested in sort of tackling this UM, and I just kind of spent a month, uh looking back at the Eddie Gallagher trial. It's about the Navy seal Eddie Gallagher and the war crimes trial that he

was involved in. And and but it also just becomes much larger about forever wars and what it is that we're asking people to do when they go out and fight covertly, UM, especially in the way the wars have been fought in the past twenty years since nine eleven. UH. And so it just becomes a much larger look at UM. You know, what's what is the line between combat and war crimes? Right? And what is our complicity in that?

UM So fascinating, UM intense UM. We talked to her fifty special operators, the Navy Seals who are in it's just an incredible, incredibly UM, incredibly unusual people UM, and anybody who people who people who can do what they do and people who have experienced the things they experience, um, regardless of any of the politics around it. It is just fascinating. That's a fascinating so of dive into that world. Yeah, it's interesting and that you like, uh, with stuff you

should know. I feel like we covered this these short broad overviews of topics, and we've done a couple of thousand of them at this point, so it's a lot of stuff. But it's you know, we're always treading in sort of the shallowest waters because of the nature of the show. You know, it's we've got to spit something out in forty five minutes, which is a good overview, and you get to really dig in there. And uh, I'm jealous in a lot of ways that of that

kind of deep dive journalism. It's something that really has always interested me and I found myself and I love what I do with stuff you should know. But you know, I feel like, you know, the grass is always greener, I think in this day. But I could also see, you know, when you're living and breathing this stuff that

must get tough sometimes. Yeah, it was. It was a dark year because I had started doing this project and then the pandemic came into then I ended up doing it all from my you know, my attic soundproofd room. Uh and and um, and it's it's pretty heavy. It's it's it's very very very heavy, and you're talking to people who have You're not just hearing about intense things.

You're talking to the um to the people who experienced them, and they're they're telling you where their heads are at now and and they're and they're allowing you in in that sense. Uh and and so yeah, it was it's

it's it's incredibly heavy. But but also like then that's that then you're sort of then you just have you spend all this time talking to these people, and then you you really do have tools to look at a story in a situation and the world and that that that specific world in a really complete way and have confidence to sort of make a estimates and actually here,

here's what I think is going on. And so it really is a process of like just trying to understand um and uh, yeah, it's great, But I agree with grass is always greener. I would love every once in a while, I'm just thinking, boy, I would love to I would love to just talk about something different area, right, and just you know, uh, but that's that's that is not that is not where I ended up. When do

you know? I feel like we have some listeners who probably um either have interest in making documentaries or have done so themselves, and it's something that might interest me, you know, on down the line in the future. And I think you tell stories so well. And I've always wondered when you know that you're done, does that make sense? Like when do you know that you have told the

story in is complete a way as you desire? Well, there's all I mean, uh, in no small part is because of the deadlines that are that you set and that other people set for you, and and that that it is important um uh to sort of put a put a cap on it, because you could really spend forever. Um. For me, it's it's this is gonna sound really dippy, and I don't usually sort of like express this verbally,

but who cares. Uh, it's sort of like, um, instead of it's you think about it like you're investigating a feeling like the Eddie Gallagher story and the story of Eddie Gallagher and the story of the seals and the story of war. It gave me. It made me feel a certain way I really couldn't decide how I felt

about it. And I thought I felt like I was seeing something that other people weren't expressing, and that and that, and then once you can get that feeling out of your head and into sort of like five hours of audio, um and and that it sort of reflects what was in your head, then that to me is done. I'm not even really thinking about the listener as I make

and I'm more thinking, is this what I'm thinking? And and and there's something, there's something that feels complete about just like, Okay, I can put it away now because here's how I feel about it. Even if you don't come up with answers, and I rarely do, they're rarely answers, um. But just the exploration of it, to have that feeling with the music and the people you talk to and the and the writing you do around it and all that stuff. If it feels altogether in a composite like

that feeling that's in your head, then you're done. That's not differ I think that's a great answer. All right, good, Thanks, What's what's next? Can you talk about it? Or do you got some ideas that you're have tucked away? I I am working on. I'm working on something right now that will come out in a couple of months that I can't I guess I can't really talk about it now, um, but but I think it's gonna be good, great I'm knocking on with if you can hear that, Yeah, I

hope fantastic, great partners. Yeah, so it's it's it's gone good. That's awesome. I bet that's fun too to um to work with different people on different projects. And you know, I used to work in the film industry, so I sort of missed the days of putting together a crew of people and doing a thing that lasts a certain amount of time, and then graduating from that and moving on and uh working with new great people. Yeah, and

then having them like the whole. I mean, it's so interesting to talk about my work in these situations, but then to be working with people who are who are just it really is a collaborative process and in a really great way like that you can just let go of parts of it and let other people let let their opinions and sort of informed the project. And I really like that part. Um. If if you have the

right partners, it's it's really satisfying, amazing. All right. So when I sent you the email O, our buddy Mangesh got us together, which is very great. Man Guesh is such a good person and good connector of people. Yeah. You sent me a few movies, including one that I did not get to watch that I can't wait to see though, the documentary about the unearthed film Oh, Dawson City, Frozen in Times. Yeah, I can't wait to see this. Oh,

it's so incredible. It's basically a documentary about about a town in the Yukon uh and and and and that sort of They found a trove of old movies that almost all of them are are gone, except for those prints that they had buried in the ground and that had preserved because it was so cold up there. Uh. And it's just um, it's it's a look at at the growth of this town, um, Dawson City. And and at the same time using those old film clips to

sort of illustrate that history. There's no words, it's only text on screen. But it's just one of those films that gets it feels like it can see the whole world like you just you just you feel like you can see everything for a second, in and it's just, uh, I love it. I love it. I like practically stock that guy like I. I talk about that movie way more than is appropriate. Well, I can't wait to see it.

I think I feel bad that I chickened out a little bit because it was a movie without dialogue, and I have a feeling once i'll see it, i'll probably email you again and you want to come back on and we'll talk about it. Yeah. Yeah, it's really it's a it's a it's really moving and stuck with me still to this day. But what I did jump on was the Mike Nichols film Working Girl, because it's a

movie that I somehow never saw. It's it's one of those movies that I felt like I saw because it's I knew the plot and it was such a big hit. Um And the only thing I can figure out is that I was seventeen and it it's not a real seventeen year old kind of movie. It's a movie for adults. And they used to make those at one point. Yeah, it's not funny, you can't. It doesn't fit anywhere right now.

I know. I talked about that a lot, like adult films and how they just used to make more mature content, uh movies for like you know, people that are thirty and up. But um, I watched it today for the first time, and I loved it. It was so great. Isn't it great? It really is. I I just I just couldn't love it more. What's what's your experience? When did you see it first? Just what's your back? You know?

I actually I was thinking about that today. I actually saw it in the theater, which is strange because I I think I was like sixteen. If it was eighty eight, I was fifteen, which is why is the fifteen year old seen this movie? Um? But I remember that I thought I saw it in the quad on Northern Boulevard and Queens. I remember. I remember seeing it. Um, I remember. And the reason I remember is because we were such

a little ship. I remember back then we would we would like sit in the back of the theater and like try to smoke cigarette, like as if as if nobody's gonna know, or like cigarette from yeah, I bother everybody like and that you wouldn't care. Um, and so I do. Were watching it then, But that wasn't where my love for it. My love for it sort of came later as one of those films that just appeared on television a lot. Yeah. Um, and so again, like as somebody who likes tell I like to I I

this has changed. But I used to be. I'm not a big necklace person, not a big I changed person. I like television and I went, it's on, I want to catch it, and I want I'll watch it from the middle. I just I want to I want to watch some one that I feel like other people are watching. There's something about that interesting. Yeah, isn't that weird? I like the commercials not, I just like the I like that. Um, and Working Girl is sort of a usual suspect for that.

And it's just such a great movie. It's just it's so well done. Yeah. I mean I feel like I almost had to avoid seeing this movie because it is one of those sort of HBO specials that ran forever on HBO. Yeah, it was fun today to see a little bit of a blast from the past, just as far as the you know, the styles and the hair and it was I mean, that was my high school that I was looking at. You know, every girl I know, their senior picture was was Joan Cusack's hair with the

big hair it was amazing and it's so funny. If you look back at that movie now, it reads like a parody, like because the secretary is it reads like that they're doing their hair is super big, because they're trying to be funny and like as if they were doing like a movie making fun of twenty years before, and it's not. They're making fun of that time. That is what people look like. Yeah, that's exactly the style. Yeah, it was fantastic. It was fantastic. Yeah. I had friends

like that too. Oh the hair, Yeah, it's pretty great. Yeah. Mike Nichols to me is uh. I hesitated to call him underrated because he's gotten like Lifetime Achievement awards. He's certainly not undervalued or underrated, but I do feel like his name should come up more when you're talking about best directors of all time when you look through his filmography, and I think one reason is because he's sort of disappears into his work in the best way that a

not a director should. Because I also love at tours who are like, hey, this is a Paul Thomas Anderson movie and you know it from the second you sit down. But I do love that Mike Nichols is not showy and that he's not interested in making it about himself. Yeah, yeah,

for sure. I mean it doesn't um, it doesn't feel. Yeah, you can't see him at all, especially in this movie because the characters are um like Sigourney we were, Mellian Griffith and Harrison Ford, like just all three of them are just like they're almost like cotton candy, Like they're just like they're just they just look they just like it is. It is just so about them, uh, in a great in a great way. Uh. And so yeah, he seems like he puts all of his focus on

highlighting them. He does, and I think his stories that he tells are so human like. That always seems to be the common common element to me for Mike Nichols. Film is there about people? And what other films are you thinking of? Well, I mean certainly the Graduate, Um, I think I love Biloxi Blue is. Of course that's a Neil Simon jam so that's got its own sort of specific tone to it. Um, what other movie I was looking there here? I'm typing real quickly. You don't

usually do this. Who did an ishtar It was not like Nichols because I want to talk to that guy. I've never actually seen Istar. I think I haven't either, and I have I do have a friend and kind of repeat guests who wants to talk about in Star. So I'm gonna take him up on that at some point. Apparently apparently it's not as bad as everybody says. That's what I've heard he did. Silk Wood. Silk Wood is so good, great movie. Can't you know? You can't see

that movie now? Oh? Is it not available? You can't see it on Amazon? You can't. I've tried many times. You got to go to the videos. So I always want to see Shared playing in Wesbian. I love that whole thing and the scrubbing scene, and like again, I like to just watch movies that I've seen before, and they just and you can't get it anywhere. It's really frustrating for me, you know, I think, I mean, you've about to be able to rent it, right if you can find yours? You cannot. Oh, it's not even if

you define soul. Yeah, okay, you can't rent it. You can't rent to the Amazon iTunes, it's not on Netflix. You can't get no, but physically no, can you go to a video store, like there's still video stories. We got a great one in Atlanta. Well, dude, if that's if that counts is like yeah, like I can take out my projector Okay, alright, I'm talking about reasonable reasonable ability. Yeah, alright, good point. Um. He did Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf

in the sixties. Yeah, And he doesn't have a feeling as a director though. I think he's not one of those people that that has like a a genre that he sticks to. He's done kind of some crazy things over the years that that he just sort of disappears into. Yeah, and I think he's an egot winner. What did he win? Was it for the graduate? Did he win his his? Oh? I think he won the oh uh And I'm not sure about the E G and the T either, but he isn't he isn't believe it. Yeah. Yeah, the great

Mike Nichols um great cast in this movie. It's it's just sort of stacked, and it was It's kind of fun to go back and see young Oliver Platt and uh and and Kevin Spacey just way over acting in his one scene sort of put to an obnoxious point. Well, he's playing it on an axious person. He did it, well, Yeah, kudos to you. Yeah, like yeah, shorting cocaine and drinking champagne. It was, it was. It was pretty bad. Totally. Apparently Milan Griffith was doing cocaine all through that movie. Did

you read about that? I just I was like, I just did a quick, a little little wickie whatever. Yeah. Apparently, like there was there was a whole fit, like she was. She's talked about it that like she she basically had a cocaine problem at the time, and and there was

a point where she came in. This is a story that that that I I'm assuming that this is a quote from her, so I'm assuming it's true, um, that she came in high on coke and they shut down the set for they said, and and this was like she was a young actress, like this is not They shut it down because of her, and Mike Nichols took her to breakfast the next morning and said, here's the deal, We're not going to tell anybody about this. You're paying for the cost of what we had to shut down.

And she did it apparently, Yeah, and she said it was a real lesson for her. Um. And apparently but apparently after that Mike Nichols was on coke the whole time too. No, no, I think that wasn't his new book that that Mark harristers for it. Oh boy, he just does not seem like the type. Well it was eight Well nobody everybody was the type. Yeah, totally. Oh wow,

that's crazy. Um. It's a movie that sort of mirrored Melanie Griffith in some ways, Like I don't think she was taken very seriously as an actor at the time, she was overly sexualized, she really needed this job, and so many of those things sort of aligned with the character of Tests. Uh that it sort of makes sense and was perfectly cast. And I don't think I don't think she's known as like one of our great actors, but she was really great in this movie. Lovely um

and a sort of guileless. Is that that what that word means? So yes, she she's wonderful. And it's interesting about I was seeing about the the sex in the movie that like how sexualized she was. And another thing that makes this movie unusual is is that it's not

clear who the audience is. If the audience is supposed to be men or women, Like there there are scenes where she's sexualized, but it's always sort of jokey, like he buys her like the silly underwear to put on, and she puts it on, and so it's not like a bombshell, it's sort of like she looks like a dipshit a little bit and like and then there are scenes where Harrison Ford he's taking off a shure and you can tell that they just want that that that

they wanted the audience to eat it up. So it's like they there's a sort of parody to the to the to the way they sexualized people in this movie, which I which I really admire, and especially considering this eight when women were I mean you really had to put yourself off out there is just a sex a piece of sexual meat to be looked at as an actress in a lot of these movies. Um and and the fact that that didn't quite happen for her is

I think it is says good things about my Nichols. Yeah, it is an interesting movie in that way because it's sort of it's making a statement about that sexualization. But like you said, I mean there I can't think of many movies that have more lingerie in them than this. It's she's got in a couple of scenes, Courney Weavers wearing lingerie in a couple of scenes, and Melanie Griffiths vacuuming in her underwear and no shirt in one scene. She says that was her idea. I think I read

that she said that was her idea. Yeah, and she said, you know this is she said it was because it was real, because like, I wouldn't be doing that in my office suit, Like if no one's around, I would just take my clothes off and do it because that would make more sense. Yeah, because she wouldn't get dirty. I just don't understand how you wear that sort of underwear because it was sort of like the thing with

the clips and stuff. Don't even know like that just oh really it was I don't even know what they call it, like Eri, no, no, what you mean, like garter belt and stuff. Yeah, yes, garter belts. It's like clips,

like the clips. Doesn't make sense. But this sort of is evidence in this one critic at the time, I read this article from I think it was The Guardian, a working Girl at thirty from a few years ago, and it talks a bit about this sexualization and sort of the time and in a male movie critic wrote with her flouzy face, her CuPy doll voice, her made for bed bod, and a general demeanor suggesting she was

born already knowing the comma Suture by heart. It always comes as a surprise to audiences to find Melanie Griffith can actually act too, Like that's a mainstream movie critic. It's so gross, so gross, it is so gross, But it also disappoints me because I felt, to me, it

feels like the movie gets past that. I feel like it does do and that's sort of I felt like, that's like, like, you gotta you've got to be looking at things that are pretty flat way to to to have that be your takeaway about money Griffith in that movie, Um,

I think, I think. No, I totally agree. It also kind of flips the script a little bit, and that Harrison Ford's role is typically you would think of as like the woman's part in he's sort of the cheerleader to her, and he's the one that sexualized throughout the movie and every scene it feels like every woman in that movie has never seen a man before Harrison Ford walks into the room to the point where you know

it's it's clearly the point because it's so overblown. Uh. And there's that one funny scene where he's changing his shirt in the office and all the women are watching through the blinds in the office and he turns around and sort of acknowledges them that that little sort of rye almost bow, which was pretty funny. Yeah, incredible, incredible, Uh,

such good good done done with such good humor. There's something about sexuality when when when sexuality is presented in a way that's not just trying to give you a boner. I'm sorry if this is like, am I not supposed to curse? No, you can say fucking boner and whatever you like. Very often you feel like you're watching a movie and they're trying to make you They're trying to get you, like to feel sexed up the try and like, that's not the way that sexuality was sort of presented

in this movie. It's sort of presented in the different forms and how people are reacting to it. And that's what it feels like to me. It feels more um considered, Yeah, I think so. And it was at a time, um, sort of in that eighties turning point where and the Guardian article kind of talked about this. When I think from the time Milanie Griffith was born, it was like eight percent of mother's work and by the time she

made this movie, it was like fifty something percent. And so it was a time when you know, women were we're in the workforce more than ever before, and and you know, trying to get these jobs and like the Sigourney Weaver had, but she's also and I think they were right in doing this, played as having to sort

of play the game as well, even in her position. Yeah, I mean that was also sort of like and yes, I mean Sigourney Weaver as a successful businesswoman, but she's beautiful, um, and she speaks yeah, and she uses her you could tell. There's even a couple of scenes where she sort of intimates that, like she definitely flirts with the other male executive, but then they walk away and she says, what an asshole that type stuff like, um, but it is um.

It presents it all as it presents it all as a as a as a system that women now have to figure out how to navigate, as opposed to like maybe presented as a system that is not the way it should be. So it presents it as like, well, women are trying to do this, so how are they gonna they gonna figure this one out? And and they do and and and a sort of in a way that's true to the time. Um, but it doesn't. It's not really sort of questioning the system on a larger

level as sort of archly as we might do it. Now. Yeah, that's a really good point. Does that sound right? Yeah, it sounds totally right. And I think it's like it's shocking to see how how little progress was made until and then how much has been made since then, because it seems I mean, it's like stuff straight out of the like nineteen fifties almost with the Alec Baldwin uh character? Who this is? I love this era of Alec Baldwin,

Like young Alc Balm was so great. But when he basically says at the end straight up like you know, why is it always about what you want? He's like, who who? Who died? Made you Princess Grace or whatever? Grace Kelly, And it's like, dude, are you kidding me? It's like she walked in on you, like banging her friend, and he's like, why is it always about what you want and it's like this, really, but that's what she was. But it's also truthful, like we don't we don't don't

hear that as he's right. We hear that as like this is what she's this is what she's dealing with, and he's not wrong, but she's more right right, Like he's not wrong for the time, he's a broken man in many ways. But but but the fact that that's that's what somebody like her would have to be dealing with, um is Uh. The hoops that she has to jump through is incredible. Yeah, and also just you know, it

wasn't like this was everybody. I mean, this was a working class guy from Staten Island, where that sort of attitude was probably way more prevalent than the Manhattan Night's um or maybe it was just disguise more as casual sexism. But like Harrison Ford is a pretty good guy. He doesn't take advantage of her. Um. I think that role needed to be, Like it was crucial for this movie to have one one good dude in it. Yeah, you know, yeah,

for sure. I'm a big fan of movies where characters, where there are characters who are not to be underestimated. Um it's kind of a trophy character, but I always fall for it. It's just their their stories I love,

and this is definitely one of them. And I think this movie if it were made today, it would be so much sillier than it is because it is sort of one of those, you know, sort of Three's Company esque things with mistaken identities, and especially at the end when Harrison Ford comes in the apartment, she's hiding in the other room and people are overhearing the wrong conversations, and but it never it always rises above that stuff. Yeah,

I don't know why that is. I actually put a lot of that on Melanie Griffith, And there's something about her, there's something about um she then they're right about her voice, like she sort of puts on the silly so I don't even know what to put on. Like, sure, her voice is a voice that one might not take seriously, but there's something about there is something. Uh, there's a non seriousness to her voice, but there's not a silliness to her voice, like she's not her she's not wacky

like she's her. She she sort of owns the space that that that she occupies in a way that you do take her seriously. Yeah, this this movie would be way over the top with silliness and wackiness, I think if it were made today. Yeah, yeah for sure. Well just yeah, it's Sigourney Weaver. My god, just all those people. Yeah, she that character. I think they they played it perfect because she was so hard to sort of read like

she was being her mentor. But you don't know for a little while if she is an ally or not. And uh, she's not played as a straight up villain. That kind of comes later, So she's sort of the mentor a bit a little bit condescending. And then of course you learned throughout the movie that she has taken her idea and but it's still not in a Disney villain way. It also feels very real still, I think, yeah,

for sure, Um for sure. It's as far as storytelling goes, if you're if you're someone who has ever written screenplays or tried to, this is a movie that I think could very easily be taught in classes as far as just kind of perfect structure, perfect it runs like a Swiss watch, uh, and but just very subtly um hitting those plat points like exactly where they should be And I know Nichols didn't write the script I was. I

looked at it was. I can't find his name now, but um, just a really great lesson in structure, I think for story. Yeah, I mean it, Yeah, it moves. And also just like the it it feels like, um, it feels complete, even in the way. And I'm sure this is I don't know that this was in the writing that maybe I'm sure this was in the directing. Actually, like it starts the way it ends like it starts.

It starts with that helicopter shot going across the New York Harbor and into the you know, into the streets, into the oh no, it goes onto the stat Island Ferry right as they're going into as they're going into the city to sort of pursue capitalism, and it ends, uh, you know, as they're pursuing capitalism in a building, you know, in this helicopter shot that's pulling out to see how many people are doing what Melanie Griffiths is trying to do and how sort of feudal it is, and that

you are just like a cogging machine. Ultimately, like so it does have that like it is complete. Um, yeah, it is complete. Yeah, it is complete. Um, Harrison Ford should have done more comedies. I realized that when I was watching this today. He's very funny when he wants to be sure. And this isn't a comedy that I mean, this is sort of a dramaty in some ways. It's not it's not one that's plays for gags or for

sort of easy jokes. But there's a lot of humor in it, and a lot of it comes from him and just how subtle he is in this movie and his face acting is just I just love that guy so much. He's so lovable and yeah, well there's there's also something about um. And I don't know how fair this is, but but I do think it's true. There's

something about um, beautiful people being funny. It's almost like fine, It's almost like when when when when when when you see somebody really beautiful and then they start talking, You're like, oh, you're a genius as well. It's almost like it's almost like it's fun to watch these three characters because they're

all so beautiful. Um, and they don't and all the characters sort of have a certain nobody's sort of the necessarily the huge star and so they're they're also beautiful, they're all good actress, but then you realize they're all funny in their own way. Um, and it's sort of like, I don't know. That kind of thing makes me happy

for the people in it. Like you, you like the people, you like the bad guys, you like the good guys like you, just like that everybody is given enough to play with, as opposed to like a lot of movies where it's like you hire one star, you give them all the good lines, and everybody else found something off them. This just feels like, look at look at all these these guys. Everybody having such fun playing with these characters. Um, That's how it feels to me. Yeah, I agree, And

there's just so much subtlety. Um again, it would just be so different if this film were made today or maybe even back then in a different director's hands. Um. Yeah. One of the moments, one of the great little small moments, is when he's in the bar with her, when he first meets her and she doesn't know who he is. He orders the tequila and he goes power, power to the people, and she almost under her breast says the little people and he doesn't even notice she said it.

It's like it's aligned for the audience and uh, just little things like that I think separate this movie from sort of what was going on at the time. Yeah, do you feel like it's a capitalist movie or an anti capitalist movie? I was. I actually feel like, well, I'm sorry, what do you think? Well, I don't know, because it's uh. I mean, in the end, she got that job in mergers and acquisitions, Like that's the happy that's her Cinderella ending is she got that job, not

that she realized that that life wasn't for her. I think that would have been anti capitalism. But then it's the but then that, to me, the pull out shot at the end is what makes it all. Is what makes it is, what turns it for him? Oh she got her office, but you do guys realize she's one of a million? Yeah, just true matter. Um, that's what I That's what I get from that. Yeah, yeah, I never really thought about that. It's I also think in

a way gives Um. What I do like about it is that it very much could have made a lot of It's like Staten Islands, poor Manhattan's rich like the like it's sort of two worlds and you don't finish the movie thinking I want to be one part of one and not the other. Um, they both seem attractive to me at the end. Um the Staten Island life seems attractive. The wedding, whether they're all having fun or like the the engagement party, they're at the bar, mixed

of this. Behind the bar, she gives him a bree case and everybody's having finds her drunk, and and you don't get the sense that they're the ones who got it wrong and the Manhattan got it right. And then yeah and so and then the flip side. Like you you see the scenes in the in Manhattan, like the big fancy wedding and like that all just seems kind of stupid, but you don't and it seems critical of it, but not in a way. They're just people in a big system too. So I like movies like that that,

like it really sort of it doesn't decide for you. Um, it kind of makes both seem attractive and unattractive at the same time. I think that's a neat trick. It is a neat trick, and there is some ambiguity there, And aside from the main characters, I think the more likable group is Joan Cusack and Alec Baldwin and then the saton Islanders. Yeah, and the second Yeah, then they're

they're they're you know, they're about friendship. And they like when Chess gets fired, like they did a little collection and they handed an avelo fullimony so she can get drunk one like they've got their eye they've got their eye on what on what is important? Um, but I and then I will say, even if and I'm not sure how this serves my argument or or sort of uh interrupts it, but like even like the big CEO type people like Mr Trask that everybody's trying to they

don't make them seem evil either. They make them see it's almost like it's almost like um paternal I guess in a in a way, but it's it's not I guess it's I guess maybe that that means it's not really going after any of them. It's about people navigating themselves in that system. It's it's less about a critique of the system itself, if that makes any sense. Yeah,

I think it does subvert a lot of cliches. Uh. And for nineteen I don't feel like I feel like, I mean, their movies are all about tropes and cliches still, but I feel like back then this was a much smarter, more considered take on this stuff than what was normally going on, which is probably why it stood out and was such a you know, I mean it was nominated for a bunch of Oscar Awards, and it wasn't you know, it could have very easily been sort of a smaltsey,

little you know, rom com uh. And he subverts that so many times, Like there their first kiss. You know, there's no music swelling. It's not it was some great background. It's just after that meeting. He he's going down the stairs and he has he urged to kiss her. It just felt so real. And the same goes for when he tells her he loves her. It's not some big Hollywood moment with this backdrop of the Manhattan skyline. It's just sort of there, and it's I feel like it's

just much more real. Yeah yeah um. And also just like pairing those up, pairing all those moments up with these big sort of corporate moments, like of tension, like he says, I love you're like right before the big meeting, right and like it's it's it is an interesting pairing. Yeah, um, I did not see the twist coming, believe it or not. It's it's pretty telegraphed, but I did not realize for seeing it for the first time today at fifty years old, I did not see that Harrison Ford would have been

dating Catherine this whole time. You know, maybe I'm a dummy. I didn't. It's so it's it's I've seen it so many times that I don't know that I remember what my initial reactions were. But you actually didn't see it coming, so you were shocked. I was. I saw the fact that he had someone else in his life coming, but I was. I was definitely surprised that it was Sigourney Weaver because I guess I thought he had been in her office, so he would have known, but you know,

maybe it was a different office or something. They never really explained that she had just started a Penny marsh Okay, yeah, all right, So I just want to make sure that you don't make people think that there's holes in this plot, because no, yeah, I mean, I didn't see it coming, and I thought it was a good twist and little that Little Three's Company scene in there where they're in different rooms. You know. I like that scene because it's she gets a little bit of validation she needs when

she overhears him clearly not really into her. And I think a lot of movies would have kept her in that uh feeling of being unsure about herself. Yeah, and I like that she had that little moment. Yeah, that's true. I love this stuff. Gorilla amazing because that wasn't played up.

It was just a funny, little weird choice. Again, if that were made today, that would have been so slapstick and weird totally, all these weird choices, like in the cocktail party where she's serving Chinese dumplings in a in a steam car and the steams like blowing in her face. It's just like there's no reason for it, but it's

just a great like indignity. Yeah, m that then that was her idea, the Chinese dumplings, like and and and and her idea, Like she didn't really think it through, but yeah, and so they're they're great sort of physical bits or like the cast is an amazing there's no reason for her to having like that big old cast on Sigourney Weaver and he comes in any knocks on it like she's a twelve year old like this, uh, and then it makes her so hilarious that she's trying

to walk with dignity with this cast. Like man, it's just like it's one of those things that you you you feel sometimes you can sometimes you can watch it and just and just be excited for the screenwriter that they that they like figured out this plot device and you could see how it played like maybe she couesn't twist king accident, no, but then she's got the cast on, No, that will be really funny in this scene. It's just like it's just one of those things that that that

keeps keeps on giving. It's not it's not just like a one time bit. Yeah, that the the giant uh tiki drinks at the wedding that Harrison Ford sucks down. It's like there's there's just enough of those sort of standard comedy moments without without it veering too much into

that territory, I think. And again he plays it so funny in that bathroom scene when the bride walks in and he comes out, it's just this sort of classic Hollywood comedy stuff, you know, like there's a there's a guy in the ladies bathroom, but it doesn't ever feel silly to me. Yeah, what is that? I think it's probably Mike Nichols. Yeah, and you know the acting, everyone pulled it together, but I don't think he would. He allowed it to to veer into that territory such a

deft hand. Uh. And then you know, then that ending with them in the apartment and he's bought it this lunch box, and it's like you're dead inside if you're not just like dying at that moment when he packs her little lunch. Just just it's so perfect and he's such a good dude, and like you don't have a heart if that doesn't, you know, at least make you

like well up a little bit. Yeah, it was wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, the combination of the two worlds, it's like it's like the sort of Manhattan world combined with the sort of like human connection to the Staten Island world like that. I think that's like that's what it's presenting as the Yeah, this is what matters, because she would be certainly packing Alec Baldwin's lunch. Yeah, her life had gone that way,

and he's rooting. Yeah, he that he's he's rooting for her. Yeah, that which is, which is he's he's supporting her in this incredibly which Now all you want to do is say in this incredibly fucked up system where she's got to like go be a asked like like, but but if somehow I don't get hung up on that. Still,

I don't get hung up on that. Sometimes when you see movies thirty years later, you're like, oh, that was a blind spot, uh, and for there's something about it that seems good, good natured enough that you don't you don't sort of judge it for the things that misses because times have changed, if that makes any sense, Like zero black people in the movie, Like, it's just not like that. It doesn't. It doesn't address any of those

any of those sorts of issues. Um. But and perhaps a personal color is watching this movie might might say it differently, But I don't know. I think it it deals enough with class that that it and that it makes you root for for people of different classes enough that I don't know, there's something out it that's still that holds up even despite it's it's sort of it's

blind spots. Yeah, I guess if you know the true, like anti capitalist message would be if she realized that world wasn't for her and she started up her own small boutique firm that did things differently and uh, she wasn't part of the machine or something like that. But you know this felt true to be sure, but also just like incredibly like when she realizes at the end that she's got her own office and like this is her secretary and then she says, here's what maybe maybe

that was a good time to talk about what you expected? Yeah, yeah, and she just says like, well, first of all, you call me tests. You don't have to get me coffee unless you're getting something for yourself, and the rest will just figure out if we go along like it should. Like this is how this is how gender, which is a very actually modern message, right, Like this is how this is how women in the workplace or women in in in the upper positions would actually change how it

is for everybody. It's not just sort of like a filling up filling a slot with a woman. It's like you will change the way that we were. Yeah, And I think it was a message of hope for night for women. I think this is a movie that in women probably really really loved um. Like you were talking about who's who is the audience. I don't necessarily think it was just for women, but I think it is a is a movie that women probably could rally around a little bit um, like they could rally around Thelma

and Louise or something like that. And you've got the Carly Simon song, you know, which is it's such a great song. It was such a big hit. Big drums, yeah, those big drums at big eighties production. And it also did this thing that I feel like movies really used to do a lot, which I love, which is you have a a theme song that is also sort of the score of the entire movie too. I loved it when movies did that, and they just don't. I don't feel like they do that any Like the die Hard thing.

Isn't that that didn't die Hard to that? No, I don't think die Hard was all beaton was ninth right? Yeah? Yeah, But I mean like a theme song that a pop star sings and then then it's rearranged as the or throughout the movie too, like let the River Run is in this entire movie kind of from front to back and then she you know it opens the movie. It closes the movie, and then it's the score. It's like the underscore. Right, you're actually right. It's great that she's

all right. Sometimes Carle time it's just start of humming in the back. Yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right, You're right. I really loved it, though. I appreciate um sometimes like I appreciate a pick from a guest for some weird reason, if that makes sense, Like I love that this is your movie pick Working Girl from it was a big movie that people love, but I don't know, it just it seemed like an unlikely choice, and I'm I'm but what is that? What else is everyone's everybody else pick?

I mean it kind of it kind of varies from like stuff that people like their favorite movies when they were kids, the first big movies, to stuff that's a little more heavy that they, you know, as adults I think really got into. But I don't know. I feel like this is a pick from the heart and I appreciate that. Oh it really is. I really love it and I love talking about it. Man. Thanks for having me, of course, Thanks for being here. Working people find you.

You're on Twitter and stuff for yea Dee to Bersky on Twitter and uh you know iTunes, uh podcasts, Apple podcasts, all those places Spotify, I just search my name. Yeah, go go listen to all the shows. I'm gonna check out the Cops show starting this week. Uh and I'll probably email you that will be my new obsession for the next week. Good. If you ever want to talk about copsling that our Richard Simmons that will talk about both,

I probably will. All right, all right, thanks Dan. Movie Crash is produced and written by Charles Bryant and Meel Brown, edited and engineered by Seth Nicholas Johnson, and scored by Noel Brown here in our home studio at Pontsty Market, Atlanta, Georgia. For I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.