Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. Hi, everyone, Welcome the Mother Knows Death. On this week's external Exam, we will be talking to a forensic expert. And we always talk about forensic cases on Mother Knows Death, and we just we know so much about these stories, but we don't know who is involved in solving these crimes and helping to figure out what happened in these cases. So I thought it would be perfect to talk to
an old friend of mine. Her name is Antoinette Campbell, and not only is she a forensic scientist, but she is also the founder of the Association of Women in Forensic Science, which is a nonprofit organization to help people provide networking opportunities, resources, and programs for female college students who are working in forensics, as well as youth that is interested in forensics. So welcome today.
Hi, Hi, thank you for having me.
We're gonna learn all about your really awesome job. Because I remember when I first met you, I had no idea that this job even existed, so I was asking you a thousand questions. So I thought, all right, I'll just ask the same questions again because I think everybody will be really interested. So you went to Temple University here in Philadelphia around twenty years ago and you majored in chemistry. So can you tell us because we know
obviously you work in forensics. But before you started college around the same exact time that I did, and I know the Internet existed, I guess, but I didn't have access to it, so I had asked around the old fashioned way. So how did you get introduced to forensics?
Yeah? Same with me, So the internet, I just became popular. Well, came on to see you when I started college and I found out about the field by accident. I didn't know that with my chemistry background, I could become a forensic chemist. So I think I was in either. It might have been my junior year. I went to a career fear at Temple and the Water Department was there, the Philadelphia Water Department was there. They were promoting careers
to work as an analytical chemist. So I applied and I got a letter in the mail that I could come for an interview tour or something like that. So I said, Okay, this sounds like something I want to do. But then I found out that if you applied to be a chemist. What's the city with Philly? You would be considered by the police, the Water and Health department. So I ended up when an interview at the chemistry lab at the Philly put Police Department at eighth and Race.
That's their headquarters. Well, they used to be there at eighth and Race. They moved on Broad Street and I went on an interview. And during that time, I was working as a pharmacy technician at the Write, a pharmacy around my way. So I was a pre pharmacy major and I just knew I was going to become a pharmacist. And then I got interested immediately in being a forensic chemist. And then I was hired to work in the chym lab. And that was back in night now, that was in
two thousand and one. So I graduated in two thousand. I started in two thousand and one at eph and Race, the chemistry lab with the Philly Police.
And you worked there for twenty years, right.
I worked there for twenty years. I left about two years ago, April two years ago. So yeah, that's that's really cool. So you have a lot of experience in this, and so why don't you tell us a little bit about well, what you did working in the police lab. Like, if you work at the police department, do you have to be a cop? Do you have to go through any training where you could just be a scientist working there.
So if you want to be a forensic scientist with any law enforcement agency, so we're talking about fully police, you have to have at least a bachelor's and science. So most of my colleagues had their bachelors in chemistry and a chemistry laboratory. So I started off working at the headquarters and the chem lab analyzing drugs. So we
analyze confiscate confiscated drugs. We even get prescription drugs, so drugs that are coming from the streets, they get transported to our laboratory by the police and then we have to analyze it. But you definitely have to have a background in science to work as a forensic scientist.
Is this a job that you have to get certification for or they train you on the job just with your bachelor's degree.
Yeah, so you do receive on the job training. The training is pretty intense. When I left, it was longer, so it was taken about two years depending on which discipline you would go into. So you don't have to get a certification, but you do need a bachelor's at minimum. Now, I do know people who worked in different units like criminalistics that had their master's degrees and forensic science, but many of them had at least a bachelor's in either
chemistry or biology. So you do get on the job training. And I know a lot of people are concerned about that, but you can apply to be a forensic scientist with a bachelor's in science.
Okay, that's good to note because I know a lot of kids end up going to school, they go to college and they just get these generalized degrees in biology and chemistry and they graduate and they say, I don't know what to do with my life. Yeah, And that's it's good to be able to tell people that because I always tell people to usually go to college for a program where they can learn a skill, like to work in the lab and get certified at least for a medical lab.
Anyway.
But that's really good to know because I know a lot of really smart people that I'm thinking about calling after this interview actually to tell them, like, hey, you know, you can try to do this. So you said, so this is what was really interesting to me when when I met you, because I didn't really understand when you said that you did drug testing. I had only rotated
at the Medical Examiner's office at that point. I know that we tested you know, urine, vitreous fluid, and body tissues on humans, but I didn't even realize that there was a whole separate field to test drugs. So can you you said you would get drugs off the street, can you give us an example of how these drugs that you received would be helped full in forensic investigations.
So, for example, if someone is charge with drug possession or distribution and manufacturing, those drugs will be transported to us by the police officers or detectives, so they have to go through processing at the precinct. The drugs are field tested, not all drugs, but certain drugs are field tested, and when we receive the drugs in our custody, for example, I'll say cocaine, there are different wet chemical tests that
we perform. We also do instrumental analysis, and our job is to confirm the presence of a control substance, so it's alleged when we receive it that is actually the drug we are looking for. If we receive a powder, we can't say like, oh, this is cocaine or this is crack or whatever type of drug or meth. We have to actually test it. We have to do estrumental analysis.
For example, one of it, one of the instruments will be like mass, GC, messpeck, And then when we confirm the presence of that drug, we then have to write up laboratory reports and then we may be called to municipal or federal court. So you also have to have to testify in court as an expert witness as well.
So and you've had to do that, I'm assuming.
Yes, So I had to testify in court plenty of times. There is a different difference between testifying and municipal, municipal or federal court. You know, some lawyers are more knowledgeable than others, So it depends.
Can you give us an example. I mean, I know, obviously you can't say much on a lot of things, but of some type of case that you worked on where you would have had to go to court to testify on, is that something you're allowed to talk about.
Yeah, definitely, Like a lot of things, it's public information. And I don't work in the laboratory anymore. But in general, I've had cases kilos of cocaine or heroin. You see a lot of those type of drugs, and if you're called to court on that type of case, then you have to go and testify. Now, you're not going to
remember every case that you analyze. So that's why when you're called to court, the lawyer is supposed to prep you for the case or go over certain questions they're going to ask you so that they can get more information about the type of case it is. So when you go to testify, you can bring your case file with you because you are prepping your case file for each case that you analyze, for each type of drug case that you analyze. So it's at that point it's
a criminal investigation. We see the drugs when it is already that person has been charged with a drug crime, they violated a drug law. So that's how we get it.
So when you say you find let's say you find kiloids KLA, I can't say the word of cocaine. If they if they find a lot of it on the field, let's say, would they bring all of that to you in the drug lab or just to so you could say, there's definitely this drug and there's this much of it, because I know that that has to do with the charges depending on how much a person has.
It depends on the amount of drugs. So if it's a case that is federal, then that will go to the local DEA laboratory. But if it's something that is in our jurisdiction that we could get, then it will go to our lab. So it depends on the weight because we had to meet mandatory minimum guidelines while we were analyzing drugs. We have to weigh the drugs. So we definitely have seen all types of drugs, like I've seen hero I'll be in alive heroin. We get a
lot of heroin and silly unfortunately, and marijuana. Back when I was working in the laboratory, I was seeing a lot of marijuana, PCPs, syrup, all different types of drugs.
So over the course of your twenty years and this is this is kind of interesting actually, because marijuana became decriminalized in Philadelphia I think in twenty fourteen, was it, Yeah, twenty fourteen, so you were obviously working there during that time. What are there trends in drugs like this year, this drug was really hot, and then marijuana got decriminalized. Now you don't see that as much after that, Like how could you speak about that?
So when I was working in the laboratory during that time, we were still getting a lot of marijuana samples and we have to weigh the drugs. So I believe it was thirty milligrams. So if someone I believe it is still that way, I'm not sure if they were caught with thirty milligrams or drugs, it was a fine they would get, they would get fined, or they would have to do some time in jail. But it wasn't as you know, like forced like it was before as far
as like what the laws were with marijuana. But I know, even ever since I left, we have the twenty eighteen Farm Bill that was passed, so that wasn't an effect while I was working in laboratory with the Canada marijuana.
So what would you say, is is the most common drug that you see? I guess that varies from city to city, but in the Philadelphia area, what's the most common drug that you would come across.
I would say the most common drug and pilatuh of course it's herromin from methazine with coding on the streets, they call it lean and cocaine.
Is that like the cough medicine with the coating.
Yeah, we I mean, I've analyzed so much of that and and it's unfortunate, but a lot of people you even see UH rappers and singers still drinking it like it's a soda or something. So prom methazine with coding is heavily abused.
That's that's really interesting. Yeah, So in our lab we use UH. In the medical lab, we use something called universal precautions, which is like we don't know what specimen we're touching or what person we're touching, and what disease they might have, So we always go in with every person thinking that they have HIV HEPSI, like the worst stuff.
And do you guys do something like that when you handle drugs, just because certain ones if you touch or something could maybe you could have an exposure to do you have you ever heard of anyone in your field having like an accidental exposure to a drug.
So I don't know of anyone that had exposure to drugs, but we definitely have received drugs and I've analyzed drugs from mules people that were mule and drugs. We receive drugs where the ebanus bag was marked HEP or HIV, so we knew to take extra precautions. We had a biohazard bucket that we had to make sure we disposed dispose of things properly, and we also had to make sure we wore ppe at all times. I've had colleagues that had to analyze some nasty cases from people who
may have drugs and feces. Of course, you've had drugs that had blood on it, So yeah, I've an a a lot of those type of drugs, and I've also saw colleagues who had really nasty cases as well. So yeah, we always had to take precautions while analyzing drugs because they come from everywhere. It could come from someone's body cavity or the dumpster or the ground. So we saw a lot of gross things.
And what about fat and all, Like, I'm not really too familiar with it, but you hear about these cases of police officers being exposed to little amounts and passing out. Do you think that that's some because there is a debate if that's possible or not, and just these minimal amounts people are exposed to they're having reactions to. Is that something that you guys have been trained for?
Yeah, that's true. Actually that was the turning point for me where I decided I didn't want to work in the laboratory anymore when I had to get in NARCAN training. So, yeah, we were seeing a lot of heroin spike with fentanyl before it was public knowledge of it, before it was mainstream.
We were seeing in the laboratory the medical examiners where they communicate with the laboratories, especially if it's the just the drug unit, it doesn't matter, and they were seeing overdoses and we were seeing it in drugs, and yeah, we had to get NARCAN training and that changed our ppe. It went from us wearing thin nightrial gloves to having to wear thicker gloves. And when you're working with thicker gloves, it's much harder to open up the little coke packets
or marijuana packets or the heroin package. We had to we had to wear the N ninety five masks, and we had to do that because fentanyl was not only in the heroin, It could be in coke, It could be in any powder. So they wanted us to be careful and because it's so deadly even with micro doses of it being in contact with your skin or in helling it. I was just at the point where you know, I I'm ready to go over explood quality assurance at this point, And that was right then where I was.
I just was like, this is just too much.
Yeah, it's not worth your life, right, No, I totally understand, especially when you're a mom and everything. It's just kind of like, this would be so stupid if I died at my job right now because of this.
Yeah, like having to give someone narcan and you know that's something that we should be trained to do, but yeah, yeah I did. I had to get Narcan training. So, oh my god, that's so scary.
So when you have all these drugs in the lab, what happens to the drugs after you guys are done testing with them.
So after we're done testing the drugs, we have to package the drugs back up in the ebanus bag, make sure that it's stealed properly, and then it goes back to the ebinist locker and it remains there until the case goes to court or the case is done with and they are able to destroy the drugs after a certain amount of years when the case is over.
So when they do that, do they just bring them to a place and incinerate them or something like? How does that go?
Yeah, it always goes to this secret location. We never know where those drugs. They call it a burn. Those drugs are, like you say, in the cinerator, and we don't know the location of where it goes.
Oh, that's really interesting. As a forensic scientists, you ever have to go on the scene. So you said they do field testing. That's when they test where they find it. Is that something a person like you would do or is that just something that the police do.
So the police officers has something called a field test kit and it contains the same chemicals that we use to test certain drugs. So I'll do sill testing for cocaine, marijuana, and heroin and I think methophetic me but it's the same chemicals, and they do it for to see if it's actually that drug that that person is getting arrested for, and then they could use those results in preliminary hearing. But we will have to retest it because when we
test it, it's done in a more controlled environment. Forensic scientists are not required to go out on the field, and that's the misconception about our job because many people they watch a lot of television and they assume that we're out on the crime scene collecting the drugs and bringing it back and testing it. However, I have met some forensic scientists in different parts of the country who actually go out to the scene and they come into
the laboratory and they analyze the drugs. But the jurisdiction where I worked, we didn't do that. We were strictly in the laboratory all It wasn't nothing glamorous like people see on television. And although I was invited to go out to scenes by the crime scene unit, I was never interested in going out to the scenes to just to see like ride along to see what they did. I never did a ride along to see how they collected evidence. What we did was we were in the
laboratory all day at our bench, working our cases. We had cases assigned to us every day, so say for example, you would get ten cases a day or it depended on your inventory. So if you already had like thirty cases in your lock beIN. Everybody in the laboratory who was a chemist had their own lock ben we had the key, it was locked. We had to make sure that we secured our evidence because chain of custody is very important. We have to make sure that we know
where the evidence is at all times. If it's not with us, then it's in the evidence SLocker and we have to track it. But yeah, people will always ask me about going out on a scene. I've never been out on a crime scene.
It's funny because a common theme that's coming up in these interviews when I'm interviewing all these scientists is that, like they say, it's not like it is on TV and it looks I think a lot of people watch all these TV shows and they think it's so glamorous and it looks like the coolest job ever. I even tell a lot of my followers on Instagram that I make the job look way cooler than it is because it's just like kind of a drag work in there, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like working in a cubicle all day. It's not very exciting.
And you do have and I did have a cubicle. So we have our administrative area outside of the laboratory where we have a I know where I worked at. We had our own desks, so and it was kind of plushed like we had our own desk. We had lab assistants who made the re agents. Then we would go in the laboratory and we would work at our bench. So we had fume hoods and microscopes and scales and instruments that we use. So it is really cool too, but it's it's like repetitious as you do the same
thing every day. The only thing that changes is the drugs and the amount of drugs. You analyze the same drugs, but the amount changes. It's a lot of PaperWorks. It's a tedious job.
It's not easy, yeah, and it's important because you could be responsible for sending someone to jail for a long time, so that weighs on your shoulders a lot. I'm sure you don't want anybody serving time that shouldn't be, you know.
Yeah, And that's why every report that we put out, it's peer reviewed by another analyst to make sure that those tests were performed correctly, that you have the correct results. So in the drug unit is not as likely as someone to probably you know, I know it's in the news sometimes somebody tested the wrong drug, but We have so many checks and balances, we have a quality assurance program,
we have peer reviews. It's not like you're examining a drug case and then you're just putting the results out. I know there's some laboratories that had some issues with people doing it because they they didn't have a really uh a tight quality assurance program or babe, they weren't accredited, but you couldn't. You can be accredited and still could be mistakes. Being accredited doesn't mean that you're not going to make any mistakes.
So I'm just trying to see if we can figure out just the scale of the Philadelphia lapse. So you you worked at you just said, and Race was at the sign the circular building.
That you I started out of eph and Race and then we moved to Aph and Poplar. So, oh okay, Well, the Forensic Science la Vatory of Philadelphia is a EFHAN popular.
And that was the only one for the entire city.
Only one for the entire city. So inside of that building you have the crime scene unit, the Chrominalistics Unit on which is made up of also DNA, the DNA units. Oh okay, in documents, firearms, crime scene documents, all.
And how many people were working there that were doing your job exactly.
I was saying the chemistry unit, it was a lot of us. It had to be about I don't know, twenty something of us, yeah, twenty five of us maybe.
And then you get you were like, what would be the average of cases that you would work on a day?
The average cases I used to work on a day before I became a senior analyst, and I wasn't getting as many cases. Probably was like I always had at least fifteen to twenty cases. Maybe.
I mean, that's a lot for twenty for twenty people to each have that many passes.
I remember when we get the cases, the cases go in sequential order of numbers. You know, it's the year and then the number case it is. I remember when I was working, we were up like almost thirty thousand cases for the year. Well there's a lot of drugs in Philly, Yes, clearly. I mean I remember seeing numbers like over twenty thousand, almost thirty thousand cases. Oh yeah, just by you looking at the lab, I d number.
It's funny how you say, like the job's kind of like a boring office job, and it's like your friends you're eating lunch with or like checking guns and doing DNA and all this stuff. It's it just I understand though totally. You're working with all this crazy stuff. But after for every person, you just get used to it after a while.
Yeah, you get used to it. I mean you get used to laying out hundreds of packets of blue glaze heroin packets. I mean that's the thing in Philly. Our heroin packets are blue glaze packets inside of a glassy It's a glass sen blue glaze packet inside of a clear packet with logos. So that's our thing with heroin. And you just see different logos and you see all different types of pills, and you could be working on a brick of marijuana. You could get a bag full
of marijuana plants or see. I think this is cool because their whole day is you analyzing drugs, doing your cases. You go from case to case. You gotta test it. You do presumptive color tests. All drugs have different colors tests we have to do. And this is a part of your training. When you get trained, you have to go through the different type of classes of drugs, the theory, and you have to take competency exams, you have to do, mock trials, you have to do It's like you're constantly
learning all the time. It's never ending.
This episode is being brought to you today by my book, Nicole and Jemmy's Anatomy. If you didn't get what you wanted this holiday season, you're gonna want this book. It is a tour through the human body, starting with A through Z, and it tells you all the different things that could go wrong with your body. And a little unknown fact about this book is that there are multiple members of my family in this book, including my handsome husband, my dad, my aunt, and my sister in law. So
check it out. You can go to thedoormotor dot com slash book and find where you can get this great book. So, speaking of learning, So you're working here at this really boring job and then you decide that, I, how did you come up with the decision that you were going to start this huge nonprofit organization? Like what gave you the idea to start that?
So I just was coming across a lot of people. It didn't matter if I was going you probably experienced it. You go to the bactor's office, you go anywhere, and as soon as they asked me what I do, they start talking to me forever. They're just so fascinated by what I do. And then I was coming across a lot of college students, in high school students and even career changers who wanted to get into the field, but they didn't have no mentorship, they didn't know where to start.
So I had this crazy idea where I didn't know nothing about starting a nonprofit. It was in twenty ten, so I was in my thirties, like early thirties, and I wanted to help people. And it didn't start off right away as a nonprofit. I know, I had to come up with a name, and I just came up with a name like Okay, there are no women owned, especially black owned organizations to help people in forensics. And I asked some of my friends who were forensic scientists
working in the laboratory from each unit to help. I had friend and firearms and a friend in sorology in chemistry, and I just asked, you want to help. So I started doing classes at the rec center around my way and at this other STEM center, and I just started doing workshops. I was doing networking events and I was doing this before it was only Facebook. Instagram didn't exist. I don't think Twitter existed, so how I was getting a word out? I was just posting stuff on Facebook.
I had started a blog and I remember I remember interviewing you for my blog. It was the Women in Forensics blog that was afterwards, but it was it was just solely driven by my passion of wanting to help people. That's it. I wanted to do something. I saw there was a need and I just was like, Okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm ana startup organization and I'm gonna call it this and it just went from there.
It's so awesome. Like I I'm thinking, like we kind of go way back. I met you before I even had my little kids, and I remember I have this good story of you asked me to do some event. I think it was I don't even know what the neighborhood was. Do you know where I'm talking about?
Yeah? Uk, And did the our murder Mystery event, Murder of a Prime Queen. It was in Germantown.
Oh yeah, yeah, So that was that was cool. And I had just had when you asked me to do it, I just had Lilian. She was less than one month old, and I said, I don't know, like I can't. I'm breastfeeding this kid. I don't even know how to pump yet, like, and you just were so cool, like just bring your kid with you. And I felt like I was like, that's this is what's great about the women thing because it's like you get Yeah, you got that right. So
I went there to that event with my mom. My mom came with me, and I had her dealing with Lilian when she was a month old while I was doing my thing. Yep, and I have this picture of Lilian in the stroller one month old, like all slouched over in front of my autopsy tools.
Yeah I remember. Actually you did two events. Okay, that was the first event that was the Philadelphia Science Festival event we did a murder mystery. Oh yeah yeah, and then you came to my other event. But yeah, you were always cool. I mean I met you when you was our heart autopsy. You're black. Yeah, well, last said this is so dope, like I want to know more.
Yeah, it's really cool. And then I got to meet a lot of your friends too that that also do really cool jobs doing the DNA and everything like that, and it's like this full circle of everything coming together. It's just really cool.
Yeah.
I also have a picture with you from like one of the moodor events. Was that the was the prom queen one there or no, there was another one there events?
So we used to always see each other there every year. Yeah, a motor event and wait, I forgot you did no, you did three events because you came to one of my beyond crom Seas and autopsies at a restaurant. Oh yeah, Green Soul Yeah so.
Oh yeah, yeah that the one on Broad Street there. Oh yeah, that was that was a cool night.
Yeah.
I love what you're doing because it's it's really it's just so cool to introduce kids and you have you set me a couple of years ago this this T shirt that said Junior Forensic Scientists or Forensic Scientist in Training.
Yeah, Junior Forensics Squad. I think was a junior forensic.
Yeah it was. Well, my kid wore it every day and all the kids at school were like, where'd you get that? It's so cool? But she finally grew out of it. I still saved it aside because I'm like the aams like coolnather shirt.
Yeah.
So you're still doing that too, like making shirts and stuff for for well. I saw the Barbie theme one you have, which is amazing.
Yeah, it's a street Forensics dot com when it's on Street Forensics dot Com. So I do all sigance shirts and stickers and and hoodies. Yeah, so that's that's one of my my babies too, is Street Forensics dot Com to do stuff when they're Yeah.
That's so cool. So I know that there's I've been hearing a lot of high school kids say that they offer forensics classes now in high school sometimes do you have any involvement with those sort of things?
So I do. I do brain cloths for silly forensics to schools. I do contract with certain schools. I still come out to schools and do career days. I also still run my own club fully forensics program. I was doing it at the MEG in Mount Erie. My last class was in December. So although I'm not working in the laboratory no more, it's still I'm still connected to wanting to help youth, to mentor them and give them guidance to get in a field if that's what they want to do, to get exposed to it.
I love that do you ever have. I mean, because now you've been doing it so long, do you have people come up to you that say, hey, you helped me, and now I've went through school and graduated, I'm doing this career.
Yeah, it's like I'm like wow, Like, yeah, I have people that come up to me who are adults that were in my class and they were little kids, or they either graduated and are working in a field, or they decided it wasn't for them and they changed major. But I have parents get in touch with me, students still dm me, and yeah, it's it's uh, it's like what I really like to do. I enjoy doing it.
It's cool too, because I know, since we're in a similar field where you kind of go to work in a lab all day and nobody ever says thank you, and you can't really tell that you're making.
A difference exactly.
Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, you say, if you're sitting there just analyzing drugs all day, you you know that you're making a difference. But really it's just different when you're when you're hearing it from actual people, you know.
Yeah, it's more of fulfilling. You feel appreciate it. Like you said, I didn't find my feel to be too welcoming like STEM being a scientist. It's it's still I would it's a lot of women, but it's still male dominated when it comes to people who are in like the leadership positions exactly. Yeah, so that's one of the reasons why I les that's fir. Yeah.
I was wondering that too, because when I feel like when I started, it's it went from being a more male dominated feel in pathology and then at some point it was like every single person that was in the program was a woman. Yeah, for training, which was really interesting seeing here.
Yeah, saying I experienced the saying it's just that we need to see more women directors and lab managers. Especially when you're working with the police. It's it's just so much testastone and you see women around. But again, you know what it is when you're working in these certain environments.
So yeah, and the lab is always I always have this theory on the lab too, is that when you're at the hospital and you're a nurse or something, or you're even when you're a police, you have interactions with other people. When you work in the lab, you only have interactions with your coworkers, and sometimes it could get nasty because it's you Like I feel like if you work on the floor, the nurse could be like, oh
my god, that patience sucks or whatever, you know. But but for us in the lab, it's just like, no, by coworker sucks. Like they're the only ones that are getting on my nerves right now, right, Yeah.
You're very isolated from everybody because again you're only seeing your coworkers every day. Now. When I transferred over to Quality Assurance, I was working even more with the police and the command of officers, and it was a totally different experience.
Yeah, and I feel like that would be That's how it was like in the lab. We might have the occasional person come and drop off a specimen, but that was it. Sometimes if we got to leave for lunch, like that would be like other human interactions.
Yeah, I mean we would have you know, of course, we would come across lawyers and paralegals that would come into the laboratory and they wanted to review a case before the before the trial or whatever. So yeah, but we were mostly just cooped up in the edmin area and our cubicle. You just see the same people every day.
It gives me bad flashbacks.
Yeah, I know. That's why I have no desire.
To go back to Yeah. I feel that way too. I'm good going once in a while and like I don't need that as a full time job anymore.
No thanks in here. I'm good. I did, I did enough time, you know, and now I'm doing things that are more you know, make me happy.
So it's funny how we're referring to our old careers as prison time, like I.
Did my I mean that's how you feel like as you get older, you just change, you change, or you know you have. When I started, I didn't have a daughter, you know. I and especially when you start a family, you want to spend more time with your family than you spend at the job.
So I know that your women in Forensics program is based out of Philly, but is that something Are you able to help youth like all over the country, not just specifically in Philadelphia. Do you do like online programs or anything?
Yeah? I do, I especially daring COVID. That's when my virtual stuff started with me doing club Fully, I did a club Phully Forensics virtual program and I had a student helped me. She was so helpful with that, and she talked to classes and after that I realized, you know, I want to do virtual stuff more. So that's why my membership that I have it's all virtual, so that way I can reach people from all over the country, from all over the world, which I do have a global following.
So oh that's cool.
Yeah, I like meeting people from all over It was it was just me getting used to the time zones, you know, being able to accommodate people from different time zones. And yeah, that's the goal for me really, one of them is to do more things that are digital.
It's cool too because you can learn, i know, in my specific pathology, just learning what other countries do. They don't have the same exact process as us when handling natural deaths or any kind of deaths or anything. So it's really interesting to learn what they do in other countries. Are you finding that too that yeah, yeah, their whole other systems are just different.
Yeah, I am finding out finding that out, like I have. Like doctor, her name is Doc Gobins. I hear she's from Morocco and she's the way they're training medical legal death investigation and what they're able to do is different than the US. And that's why I tell a lot of people, like, you don't have to stay confined to the United States. You could think about going outside of the country to get a job. And I think that's what a lot of people don't think about when they
want to go into forensics. If they can't find a job here, they don't think about relocating to a different country or or a different continent. A continent you know, you don't have to stay here, you can go somewhere.
Yeah, and it's it is cool because you have to Like I understand that people Americans don't think that way, but you're like, guess what, There's drugs in other countries and people murder people in other countries.
Me and you know, what we do is global, so you meet different people and your system is different, and it's so interesting to get out there and meet people who are who speak different languages and who don't practice things the same way you do. So I just think that's part of us being American, Like we.
You need to go visit your friend in Morocco's that's like on my list.
Yeah, she she I think she's in Casablanca, so cool. Yeah, and she's she's done a beyond crime seas or autopsies for me like three times. And she's so nice and and I and I meet so many people who want to help. I've met more people outside of the country who wants to support and do things with women in forensics than people in the United States, like a worldwide association of Women Forensic Experts, Like she's in Italy and I'm like, oh, that's a best coordinator with her, Anna Barbaro,
and she's real helpful. So it's yeah, it's like you, I've kind of been able to see the world without me physically being there, just by me meeting these people, and that's been kind of also one of my interests is to get out and travel and meet other people outside in forensics and see what's what's different about what they do. I love that.
Yeah.
Thanks.
So, so now that you're you're retired from the from the police department, what what's next for you? I know that you're just going to continue to do this, which is awesome. Do you have any other any other interest in doing anything else?
Yeah? So I do like out of school time working with after school program so I do that as well, And I just want to continue to run my club fully forensics program and grow Street Forensics and also create like educational resources for youth who are interested in forensics because I love art, so I like creating stuff that they could use to be able to learn more about the field. Yeah.
But you know it's interesting too with all these interviews, I noticed that a lot of scientists that are in this field are are artists as well, Like I consider myself to be an artist. Yeah, and we just interviewed someone last week who's a forensic artist. She does the composite sketches and also the clay bone sculpture. And it's just cool because sometimes when you have one of these jobs at Super Science Base, you need this like other outlet to get your art stuff out.
Yeah.
So all right, so let's tell everybody where they can find it, because you have a lot of different things going on. But let's start off with the clothes. That was the Street Forensics, right, Yes, those shirts are really cute. What's the that website?
So that's street forensics dot com. So that's Street s t R e e T Forensics dot com. And then I had a withst dot org a w ifs and frank As is a Sambaut org. And I also have a membership which is my Patreon forward slash Women a Forensics where people can join and be able to meet with me twice a month, and I have guest speakers to talk about how they can start a career in forensics and that's awesome. And my handles women in Forensics on Instagram and Street Forensics Instagram.
Thank you, Yeah, I think you're I think your Patreon page is really good because it's it's almost like having a like a guidance counselor specific to what you want to do that actually knows the right advice each of you.
Yes, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that, being as though you've had a membership for so many years. I mean, you the pioneer and all of it. No one was doing what you were doing when you started, Like, oh, thank you, I'm proud of what you're doing.
I'm so proud of what you're doing too. It's awesome. Thanks so much for being here today.
Of course, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate you having me on your platform, and you've always been supportos for years, so.
Of course anything for you. You're awesome.
Oh are you too? Thanks Nicole, appreciate you.
Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder, my training is as a pathologist assistant. I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge of those subjects at the time of publication. If you are having a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent care center, emergency room or hospital. Please rate, review, and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks