Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.
Hi, guys, welcome to this week's episode of Mother Knows Death and the External Exam with Doctor Michelle Miranda. A few weeks ago a Mother Knows Death, Maria and I were discussing a case in the news where there was a woman who was killed thirty one years ago and she was recently identified by her tattoo. So, of course, the first person that I thought of talking to was doctor Miranda because she is a forensic scientist who is
an expert in the identification and the forensics of tattoos. So, Hi, Michelle, how are you doing?
H good? I'm doing right well, how are you great?
Thanks so much for being here today. I think this is going to be an excellent interview and everybody's going to love everything that we're talking about today. But before we get started with the case that we were discussing in the news a few weeks ago, I wanted everyone to know a little bit about your background and how you became a pioneer in this field.
You got it. So, I was originally a biopre med major in college. I knew pretty much my whole life. I wanted to be a doctor, and I wanted to go into the medical field, so that was like an easy kind of path to get me into, you know, a program in bio. And it was my senior year and I attended a lecture on campus. And I recommend anybody like that is in school or has kids in school.
That's like one of the things you get outside the classroom is like attending talks when they have like guest speakers, and so that for me was awesome because the guest speaker actually was from a medical examiner's office, and she came to talk about the eme's office, and she came to talk about friends of DNA analysis and all this stuff. And I'll preface this by saying this was way before CSI. I won't tell you all how old I am, but
it was before CSI. But so I sat and I was like, oh my god, this is like amazing, this is so interesting to me. I'm like I love this. And I had, you know, taking like genetics and taking more bio and so I had a knowledge of this, but like when you actually see it outside of a classroom, outside of a textbook, like that real world, you know application, it just can make so much of a difference, and so I ran up to her after and I was like, I love this. I want to learn more. Can I
intern with you? Can I do something? And she was like yeah, sure. So my senior year, my last semester, while everyone was out partying and having like a great time, I was this idiot that decided I was going to do internship. I decided I was going to take on another minor. So I was already majoring in bio and then minoring in chemistry, so I added a minor in criminal justice because I wanted to learn about the criminal
justice aspect because of the forensic realm. And so my senior year, I was going from the Bronx where I was at Manhattan College, and I was taking the bus all the way to the Medical Examiner's office in New York City. So I was on the bus for like hours to get there to go sit with this individual, to learn about the lab, to learn about forensic DNA analysis,
to help her with her samples. And so it was a really awesome experience that drew me into like this whole forensic realm, and so I kind of changed my course from there instead of you know, taking exams or continuing to take MCAT study exams or practice exams. I decided that I wanted to get my master's in forensic science. And so what I did was I ended up applying to John Jay and their master's program and forensic science and kind of put my like medical plan on hold,
you know, thinking that I would go for pathology. So now I'm like, Okay, I'll do forensic pathology. And then when I started experiencing the master's program and learning about trace evidence and traces, you know, like the hares, the fibers, glass peed, but also like the microscopy, the spectroscopy, the way that like you analyze these things and can get so much information from a small sample, I was like,
this is it. This is for me. And so from there I started working at the NYPV as a criminalist, and then I decided to go back to my doctorate and that kind of led me down the path be tattoos.
That's that's so great, And I love a couple of different things that you said. Number one, you have to keep this in mind because you and I are around the same age. We won't say, but we I kind of started off. I guess this was like in the nineties, right when like you started going to college and everything the same with me. And it's like we didn't have all these things that kids have today, like TV shows that talked about these different jobs, especially once that women
could do. And also we didn't have the Internet to find out about it. And it's cool that you had this lecture with this lady and then you just I think this is really important for anyone, Like just you approached her and showed your eagerness and just said I love this and like help me figure out how to do this with my life kind of thing. And I
think that's like really important and awesome. And how you got that awesome opportunity at the Medical Examiner's Office which then kind of shaped where you went on from there. So you said that you were working at the for the NYPD crime Lab, and I also know that you worked for the Medical Examiner's Office too at some point.
So can you explain to everyone the difference between like doing forensics and crime scene stuff at the police department versus the Medical Examiner and how the two of those different teams work together to help solve crimes.
Sure, So one of the things I just want to add is like it was important to hustle, like I did not take like a very traditional route because when I went to the NYPD, I stayed there for a while and then I decided to go back for my doctorate.
And then while I was going to my doctorate is when I just wanted to see as much as I could, and so I took all these opportunities that came to me, like working as a medical photographer forensic photographer during autopsies, and then also working as like a you know, part time death investigator. So that was one of the keys to kind of me being a generalist from scientists, which is someone who has like this broad knowledge and I use like the cool crime scene to the core kind
of ideal. And it was experiencing all of these different things and from doing that, not only did I see where, like you're asking, things are interconnected, right and everybody's trying to work together to solve a crime or work a case, but also where there's disconnects or and forensic science we talk about like silos about how like there tends to not be a lot of really good communication between say law enforcement, the crime lab, the medical examiner, and you know,
the prosecutor the defense attorney. Right, then everything can be kind of segmented, but in the end, we all are trying to work together towards a common goal. And so at the NYPD working in the crime lab, you're in the crime lab. So you're working a full day, eight hours in a crime lab. Like a lot of people think that they'll be running around at crime scenes in you know, and driving hours and carrying a firearm and you know, slamming someone up gets a wall and asking
them to confess. You know, it's not like the TV shows. So you have like your crime scene people and in New York City, crime scene or sworn detectives, so there's not a lot of civilians running around at crime scenes. When you look at the way we're structured in New York. Then you have the crime lab, which is a mixture of civilians and law enforcement depending on where in the lab that they work. And so there I was in
the trace unit. So that was again looking at different types of traces from gunshot residue to hairs fibers, glass paint, to chemical unknowns. Something was thrown in a person's face. We don't know what this is kind of stuff, so it was a mixture of everything. And then you have other parts of the lab as well, like firearms drug analysis. Right, So everybody's kind of structured doing that thing in a crime lab, and you pretty much stay confined to the lab.
I was lucky enough in that my first area of expertise was gunshot residue, so I happened to get involved in a lot of interesting cases with shootings, with police involved shootings, and so I actually was lucky in that on a couple occasions, I was able to go to crime scenes or I was able to see like if there was a vehicle involved. But it's not very typical of the criminalist in the crime lab to kind of venture out all over the place. Then you have separate
you know, and again mostly talk about New York. Separate is the medical Examiner's office, and so they're doing you have, you know, the pathologists in the autopsy suite. You have the toxicologists that are getting samples looking at whatever drugs there or covering or poisons from the body. And then you have the DNA people, right, the criminalists that are
doing DNA analysis. And again it's very siloaed, it's very separate, So like a piece of Eviden and may travel from the crime scene to the NYPD lab for trace analysis, then over to the OCME for DNA analysis. Right, so everybody's kind of working separately but maybe working with the
same type of evidence. And then usually the detective assigned to the case and or you know, the prosecutor are the ones that kind of put that picture together and kind of work to reconstruct what may have happened based upon what they saw along this whole chain.
I think that's it's important because I do hear a lot of people that are now, you know, the kids that are growing up now have access to all these TV shows, including like Forensic Files and then the fake ones like CSI and things like that, but also just the Internet and just everything that's going on. And I think a lot of people don't know that there is a difference between the medical aspect of it and more
of like the science aspect of it. So if people want to want to go to school for forensics, they may sign up and think that they're doing autopsies and stuff, but that wasn't really part of training for you, right as a forensic scientist, right, it was more of like the actual looking under a microscope and doing chemical analysis and all these like actual lab tists.
Yeah, so forensic science and even that buzzword forensics is very sexy now.
Right.
So back when I started, there were like three really well known universities that had forensic science programs on the East Coast. Now with these they're everywhere, right, So you get individuals all walks of life just kind of starting
these forensics programs all over. And there's a really big difference what I recommend when I am asked for my advice, I suggest to people to get a science degree, not even to get a forensic science degree, because exactly like you're saying, you may go for a forensic science education and yeah, you may get some science, you know, but
you're getting like then you get like a Crensen investigation class. Right, most people don't go on to you know, do crime scene investigation, and most a different story for other day. My feelings on crime scene investigation because you're really not learning the skills involved in crimes and investigation that help you to think properly, you know, critically, think, problem solve, reconstruct.
You're basically, you know, crimes and investigation classes are like here's how you pick things up and wear protective equipment. So the problem is if you get like a forensic science education is you may and again this is my own opinion, depending on the program, depending on the educators, you may not get like good science education, right. And also, as you're saying too, if I have a degree in biology, premit right, and I go work in a crime lab
and I hate it, I just hate it. I do it for a couple of years, I'm like, Okay, I thought it was going to be like TV. It's not like TV. On miserrabele. If I have that biodegree, I can go take that biodegree and work a lot of places, or decide to go to medical school, designed to go
to graduate school, whatever. When you have a forensic science degree, you may not have those same opportunities, right, So you want to go work in a lab and they're like, oh, you have a forensic science degree, or looking someone with a biodegree or with a chemistry degree, right, especially if they look at your coursework and they say, hey, half of your forensic science classes are social sciences like forensic
psychology and brands and investigation. You know, so you may not be viewed as having a real degree in the natural sciences. And so that's one of the you know, sort of weaknesses that I identified, because you know, regulating forensic science programs, you know, can be a little iffy.
So yeah, I mean it's going to be very difficult for someone that graduates with a forensic science degree to potentially get into medical school down the line if they decide they hate forensic science to the crime lab, whether they want to do pathology or something else. And I feel like you have more opportunities if you say that bio or chemistry degree and then kind of switch your way. But definitely they're different, you know, going for forensic science.
And I've had students ask me this before. They're like, oh, how long until I get to do autopsies? How many classes do I have to take before I could do autopsis? And You're just like, oh my god, Like it breaks your heart, you know, because you're like, no, this is
not that's not what's happening. But yeah, there are distinct differences between the career paths, and so I tell people take the forensic away from whatever you want to do, whether it's pathology, science, psychology, remove the word forensic and just what does it take to be a psychologist, a scientist, a pathologist, and then you know, look at what these jobs entail, look at what the career path entails, because the forensic is sort of the application of these sciences
to criminal justice problems.
Yeah, I agree with you there, it's a huge disconnect between like what the jobs actually are and then what kids are going to college for. And that happened in my program too, Like I went for a master's and as a pathologist assistant, but I knew what the job was because I was already working in the hospital, So I knew when I graduated, like what I was going
to be doing. But so many girls that were in my program didn't even know what they would really be doing as a job, and some of them really don't want to do it as a job. But since it's so specific, it's like you can't get a job anywhere else doing any Like if you get a master's as a PA, you can't go be a nurse or anything. You'd have to go back to school all over again. So sometimes a broader degree works better sometimes.
Yeah, And that's I mean, I always you know, said like this is my opinion. I would rather see you go get a degree in biology, get a degree in chemistry, and then apply it to forensic science and you know, and then I say, if you want to after you get the undergraduate degree, then consider a graduate degree in forensic science where you could learn better how to apply it or use these analytical techniques to analyze traces and
specific stuff like that. But yeah, if you don't, you know, get the proper education, it could screw you all up. And I feel terrible when I see like criminal justice majors, you know, that come to me in their senior year and they're like, I want to be a forensic scientist. And I'm like, oh god, like you're getting a you know, a criminal justice degree like that, You're like completely off
the path. And then they're like, well, I was advised by a high school guidance counselor or you know, I thought that, uh, you know, and so some of that can be really heartbreaking. You don't check what's required, you know.
Yeah, I wish there was a way that they could really interview people before they start school, because it's not even just a matter of the time that you put in and waste towards a degree, but it's so much money and I know, like even one of my great friends, she doesn't really want to be a PA anymore, and she would put the time to go back to school to be like a nurse practitioner or something, but she
just doesn't. She can't afford it. Like to go back to school for two years at a graduate program is a lot considering it's kind of a lateral move financially, right. So, but I think that a lot of people are aren't educated enough as to like what they're signing up for. And you do hear stories like that all the time of people saying these things, and you're like, oh, dude, you're like way, you're way off, and then you feel bad, you know. So let's get into your work with forensics
and tattoos. Before you really started all of your research and everything, it was really not talked about that much. You're the one that is the pioneer in this field, so to speak. How did what was it that got you interested in this specific niche thing of tattoos and how did you think that it would be a really good tool to use for a forensic investigations?
So it was the dock and stormy Night when not so I was in my doctoral program. And as part of a doctoral program, you take courses and you have to do a doctoral dissertation, you have to do original research. And I was really jaded. I was in uh, you know, like I had been through a forensic science under I mean graduate program, I had worked at the police department, and I kind of hit this point where I was
actually really jaded with forensic science. And I still even find myself these days like getting like that because you started hearing about wellful convictions. You start to hear about you know, quote crime lamb scandals, you know, where there may be an analyst that's dry labbing or an analyst that's you know, taking drugs or stealing drugs. So all this stuff started to kind of like compound and I'm
like what am I doing here? Right on top of that, you have CSI, and you have you know, people that are like, oh, I can do this, you know I you know, I was in high school and I did a crime scene you know, like a course, and I can be a you know, forensic scientist. And so I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, and I was ready to actually just completely leave the field. And actually I really got into art and art conservation, which I've written about a little bit with like the intersection
between art and forensic science. And so my mentor at the time came up to me and he was like, I'll introduce you to someone, like we'll see if we can get you doing like somehow like art fraud or
investigations and all that kind of fun stuff. And so at this time that I was like completely jaded with forensic science and trying to figure out what the hell to do with myself, there were two cases that I was preferring too that happened at the around the same time that just really changed the course for me again. So I was working with my mentor on a private case where he was tired as a consultant. He was like, Hey,
come work this case with me. And it was a man who had claimed to be sexually assaulted by law enforcement officers. And so we were looking at the clothing of this individual because based on his story, this was an assault and so his clothing was damaged during the assault.
And we looked at his clothing and we're looking at it microscopically and we're like, there's some really weird like black stains, like some inky weird stains here, and so we approached the lawyer and we said, look, we're finding this black, inky residue like around this hole, so we'd really like to look at it further. We'd like to do some analysis on it to see what this ink may be, et cetera, et cetera. And so we did
an analysis. So we're really trying to figure it out, and the lawyer comes back and he's like, I want to just fill you in. We think that the individual who made the complaint, who happens to be a tattoo artist, may have made the himself, and is it possible that maybe he used like a tattoo machine or something that may have had ink on it. And so we were like, hmm right. So we were like, this is interesting because this material keeps coming up as like some inky substance.
And so from that, you know, I realized there's really no good, solid like database of like tattoo ink, so like what they are, what they contain, all that kind of fun stuff, and not from the perspective of like these things are going to kill you if you inject them in your skin as a tattooed individual whatever, but more from the approach of like for a forensic database, from a forensic perspective, like, how do we know what's
in these inks? If we find human remains, if there's like some discoloration, could we figure out what if it's an ink, if it's a pigment. You know, So my brain started like swirling. So at the same time, one of my colleagues that was a death investigator, she's like, yo, She's like, you missed a case today. She is like,
it was crazy. So the case involved a body was found set on fire in a park and so the fire was put out, realized it's a body, and now it's chored beyond recognition, right, so no fingerprints, no facial features, whatever.
So the body comes into the autopsy suite and during the autopsy there's someone, right, So the investigators are there, my friend is there with my colleagues, the pathologist, and they're looking at this and someone sees some discoloration, and so the pathologist scrapes off the burck short skin and a tattoo appears right that had not been destroyed, and so they were able to resolve the entirety of the
tattoo and a name was in it. And so this was photographed, and law enforcement was able to use this to basically go around say do you recognize this tattoo? Right, And so from there they were able to identify who the individual was, you know, identify potential suspects linked to a bunch of other criminal activity that had been going on with the partner, right. And then the case ended up being going to court, being adjudicated, and this man
was found guilty. And so it was perfect timing because on this one hand, I'm looking at tattoo inks and then on the other hand, I'm looking at this case where this tattoo was necessary to identify this investigation forward, and I was like, blink, that was it. It was like light bulb went off. I'm like, this is where I'm meant to be. And so that sort of long version of how I ended up going down this strange road of tattoos and forensic context.
That's so cool, And that brings us to the news story that we were talking about a few weeks ago. And of course when I texted you, you were like, yeah, I'm on top of that, like I heard you know, I heard about that. But just briefly, I'm going to just explain what happened. There was thirty one years ago a British woman was found dead. She was found murdered in Belgium and they didn't know who she was all of this time, and she was just given the name
the woman with the flower tattoo. And then there was an international campaign was set up to try to identify these twenty two women that have been killed over the years to see who they were, and a website was created and they put a picture of this tattoo that was it was a flower tattoo that had the letters are and then the name Nick R Nick in it.
And sure enough, someone saw the photograph and thought they sent in a tip and they thought that it was one of their family members, and then they were able to identify the woman as Rita Rogers and finally give some peace to her family because she just went missing one day and they never knew what happened to her. I just think that that's such a cool story and it sounds like almost similar to what happened in your case.
So besides, we kind of briefly talked about this, but maybe we could just go in depth about it a little bit more.
So.
You have the one aspect where you're looking at the tattoo itself that could be used as identification, and then you're also you also could use tattoos and forensics in other cases as far as looking at it under the microscope and the pigments and stuff.
Correct. Yeah, so there's a lot that can be done with tattoos, and from my perspective, I feel like not enough is being done, because yeah, we can start to First of all, identifying or locating the tattoo is like a big thing, and so it frustrates me sometimes when you know, I'm under the impression from communication with individuals in the field that if you don't see the tattoo and it's not glaring and right in front of you,
then you don't change attention to it. Meaning like if we do have chore remains, if we do have decomposed remains, if we do have a lot of these old cases, the tattoos may be overlooked or they may be identified but improperly described or labeled. And so that kind of drives me crazy because we have these cases where just
the presence of a tattoo maybe enough. Like we're humans, we're visual people, right, so we see something, we remember it and then we see it again and we're like, ah, we make those connections like we've been learning to do that since we were kids. And so this case that you mentioned is really bittersweet to me because, on the one hand, awesome, like we identified this individual, we have closure, and now we have the opening of a murder investigation, right,
which you know is good. We're making progress here. But it annoys me that it's thirty one freaking years that have gone by, and now I will give credit in this case, thirty one years ago, we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have social media, we didn't have these networks to communicate, especially like as I mentioned earlier with the
siloing right even within one organization, forget other organizations. But now, like you know, this woman was found in Belgium shoes from the UK, right, So we can't keep this stuff close to home. You can't just distribute this in like the local neighborhood and said, you know, do you recognize this because it may be people travel the world now,
people are all over the place. So for me, the fact that we're not doing more with cold cases, we're not doing more with current cases, drives meat bananas, like we should be putting these tattoos out there. That's why whenever I'm contacted by a law enforcement agency, I put the tattoo out there and with a little bit of a backstory and just kind of like let it sit.
Or when I see these cases in the news, you know, send them out to the public, because it's so closed off what we could be doing with tattoos that we don't. But yeah, we could do the basic things like the visual identification. Just have you seen this tattoo? Do you recognize this tattoo all the way up to the potential of even which can get a little dicey the interpretation, right, And I know, actually that's how you and I started talking.
I don't know if you remember. It was the Ann Hernandez case, right, So there was a case where you know, when I'm talking about the football player, you know, for the Patriots at the time, right, who where in court they're trying to look at his tattoos. He was alive, right, but he was charged with murder and they're trying to interpret his tattoos. Right. Does this tattoo have symbolism? Does this depiction of a firearm or a cartridge case indicate
that he had committed murder. Right, So then we see that interpretation can be really useful, maybe if we're looking for affiliations with gangs, for relationships or for anything like that. But we have to be careful when we start trying to interpret it and linking it to people, you know, being involved in criminal acts. But you know, the interpretation of a tattoo can be useful and helped draw connections
just the characteristics of the tattoo. For example, a lot of my grad students I had doing research on temporary tattoos. You know, how often do people look for temporary tattoos we see now that you know, whether it's like the little kid with the sticker or it's the licking stick you know, from when we were kids, or even now with these more elaborate temporary tattoos for people that don't
want to commit or afraid of pain. No comment, right, but you know, we see like that even identifying the tattoo can help us try and figure out where it came from or what it is. Is it temporary, is
it permanent, when was it made? All that kind of fun stuff, and then we can start to get into the actual analysis of the inks, both the inks you know that or in the bottle or the inks that may end up being in human skin or in tissue, right, and being able to see if we can draw connections and say, hey, we can't resolve this tattoo because the body's too decomposed or its charred, but we do detect yellow pigment, we do detect green pigment, so we think
this was a yellow and green tattoo located here. Whatever. So I think tattoos are underutilized. I think that if they're not present, you know, like people should be using infrared photography, they should be using alternate light sources. They should be scanning these bodies to see, hey, even though it's decomposed or its chored or mummified, you know, there may still be a tattoo there. And that's like instant, right.
Everything has to go to the lab for DNA analysis, you know, and people forget our databases are only as good as what we have in them. So if someone's not in a DNA database, right, if someone doesn't have their fingerprints on file, someone doesn't have dental records, right, they're not in that database to begin with. But with a tattoo, you can take a beautiful photo, you can put it out there to the public and just start
to get those investigatory leads that can help you. You don't leave a case forward.
Yeah, I mean, they're so identifying and even if you go into I mean a lot of old, older cases, I would say, especially especially with women and stuff, it's like you would walk into a tattoo shop and you would pick off of the wall like a flash.
Right.
But now as time goes on, it's going to be like most most places don't even do that anymore. It's like everything's custom drawn and it's just very specific to an individual their tattoo, and I think it, I mean, it's just like an awesome way to idea. It's probably the most significant identifying factor without showing their dead face or something, you know what I mean that that might not even look like them anyway. Yeah, speaking of like the Aaron Hernad is it hernandezk case you were saying
about the court them talking about it in court? Is that something that you've ever done or would you be asked to ever testify in court as it pertains to a tattoo and a forensic case.
So I have testified in court as an expert forensic scientist. For my time at the police Department, I have not testified as a tattoo expert yet. The opportunity just hasn't arisen, and you know, I would love to be more involved
with these cases. A lot of the work that I've done in terms of consulting has been more pro bono, simplified of whether it's posting something on my Instagram, being asked to look at something and just kind of see if there's an interpretation, if there's any clues, or just ask my opinion about something. So for me, it's not about like consulting, making money, testifying in court and you know, being this big deal. It's about like helping to identify
these individuals. I mean. But sure, like you know, I've had calls from you know, law enforcement agencies that think if they want to hire me, and then all of a sudden, you know, once they you know, find out what it entails, you know, and never hear from them again.
You know. So people also, I think, are not willing to invest the time and energy and figure, yeah we'll just let it ride, we'll rely on DNA, or we have too much other stuff to worry about, you know, And so that's a shame, like you know that that I'm not cold on more, because it would just be really nice to to, you know, work some of these cases and solve some of them, or at least get some investigatory leads that you know can be worked to get these cases going.
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I know, back in twenty and fifteen you wrote a book about all of all of your findings and your research on forensics and tattoos. And it is this a book that's specifically geared towards forensic scientists or is this a book that I could buy for one of my friends who's a tattoo artist and just is really interested in tattoos.
So when I wrote the book, I did it's a mix, right, So I wanted to include some of the chemistry and some of the information from my doctoral work so that it was somewhere right so someone can look at this if they're say a pathologist, can flip open a book and see my images, you know, my from the microscope of what these tattooings look like under the microscope to what they look like when they're analyzed chemically. So there is that certain like forensic element that's geared towards forensic
scientist pathologists. But I also wanted to make it readable and usable for the average individual or you know, a tattoo artist or a tattoo of fictionado, a lawyer or whatever. And so there are elements there where I start talking about the history, and I go through the history of inks, and I go through you know, court cases where tattoos have been used. So in my mind, you know, I
tried to make it as draad as I could. But I know some people may look at it and say, Okay, I see chemistry, I see chemical structures, like you're just you know, that's too much. But there's a little bit in there for everyone to hopefully see where I'm trying to go with the importance of tattoos in a forensic context.
I think discussing the tattoos is a really important thing that's not discussed enough as you would as you're saying, especially because so many people in the population now have one or multiple tattoos. It's like it's a really high number. Last time I checked, it was like seventy percent of the population has at least one tattoo or something. I mean, that's a lot. And recently on Instagram, I had done
two different mystery diagnosis that involved tattoos. One was a person that had the tattoo pigment in their lymph nodes and was presenting with lymph anopathy. And the other one was a woman that had her tattoos eyebrowed or her eyebrow tattooed in another country and she ended up getting an infection because they think that the water in that country was mixed with some of the tattoo anchor pigment and then it was tattooed in her and that's how she got that weird bacteria in her body. But I'll
never forget I was doing. I was working in pathology. Now this was back like fifteen years ago, but we got lymph nodes on a patient with breast cancer and the pathologist was looking under the microscope to see if she had metastatic tumor, and then he was just like,
this is really weird. There's like all this black stuff in her lymph node and I wonder what this is and so and so, and then he called the surgeon during the surgery and was like, is there a reason that you could think that she would have like all this weird black stuff. And then the surgeon was like, yeah, her whole entire arm is tattooed, and the pathal just like kind of had never seen them, which it was.
I mean, it was fifteen years ago, and this is going to increase as time goes on, just because more people are getting tattooed. But it was interesting to me that I'm like, oh, this was nothing that you ever learned or heard of until today right now, Like you know what I mean, It's kinds.
Which is crazy because there are pathologists that were writing about this in the eighteen hundreds. So I did this you know, great? Well, I mean just ask me. I think it was great. This entry for a French Medical Legal Forensic Pathology text. And that's one of the things I talk about is you know how a lot of these pathologists, especially in Europe, in the eighteen hundreds, right when we're starting to think about the idea of forensic
science really gaining steam. Which is another thing that drives me crazy because the younger generation, I don't know if they're being taught this or they just think this, but they believe forensic science started like during the OJ case, you know, and and with the introduction of you know, DNA analysis, so a lot of people seem to think like forensic science science was like invented in the eighties or the nineties, right wow, But yeah, people were talking
about this and the eighteen hundreds, you find these references to you know, being able to detect you know, these pigments in the lymp notes. So this is something that's been around for a very long time. And yeah, I mean people are just not aware of the history. And that was another reason for you know, the reason why I wanted to do this book was because I wanted to trace the history of these inks.
Uh.
And you know how these inks have evolved all it over time, uh, you know, which is important too, because everyone says, ah, you know you're going to get a tattoo and you know you're going to die. But all right, I'm a little dramatic there, Let me be, Let me be. But you know, you see these individuals that like, oh see, you know tattoo you know so long ago, you know, and you know, these things stick around and they're such great traces and they can definitely be used for so
many important things. Uh, you know, but it's not new, and that's you know, something important as well is that I knew when I was doing my research that yeah, there were maybe a day database here of tattoos and meanings or maybe someone had studied inks mostly for the medical you know, dermatological whatever. But to put it all together and kind of isolate it was what was really important for me when I did my research. And also,
you know, came up with the book. You know, so people know these things are you know they exist?
You know, Yeah, it's it's really great. Speaking of tattoo meanings, I think that I have a forensic book. I feel like I sent you a picture of this once that it's from the fifties. It's like an old forensic book and it has a picture of a guy's hand with a sparrow, and it just says, oh, this indicates that
this person is homosexual. And and then like I have tattoos of spiderwebs on my elbows, which in the past used to mean that you did time in jail or something, and of people getting a tear drop a tattoo on their face under their eye, and all these things that sometimes things used to have a certain meaning and now they don't, or sometimes like I got it just because I was kind of like, oh, I'm like a cute How old was I seventeen or eighteen when I got it?
Like I'm a cute little girl, and getting like this is so ironic and cool, you know whatever. But it's interesting that people, like like scholarly people sit there and write about like what certain tattoos mean and stuff. I just always thought that was interesting. All right, So let's talk about a couple of weeks ago. I texted you and asked you if you wanted to be on the show, obviously to talk about this stuff. And you told me
that you were in Australia, which was so cool. So why were you there?
So I was in Australia for the International Association of Forensic Sciences International Conference, which was awesome, and my purpose for being there was profecional purpose for being there was twofold. So first it was to promote what my colleagues and I have come up with called the Sydney Declaration. And it really is kind of like trying to reclaim forensic science, uh, you know, from the perspective of the scientists, because it's gotten so off, you know, off track. There's so much
forensic science everywhere. It's saturated. Uh, you know, and who dictates or science, right? Is it lawyers? Is it judges? Is it you know, law enforcement agencies? And so one of the big things was to talk and promote about to talk about and promote the declaration.
Uh.
And the other one, which is something that's very important to me, is I gave a plenary talk on sexual and gender based violence, especially in regions of conflict. Uh. And so one other things that really interests me is the quality of international investigations and the quality of forensic science. Uh that's being done when we look at you know, world events, uh, you know, mass chaos and and all this kind of crazy stuff where there's sexual and gender
based violence. Uh. You know, why is it such that there are not a lot of cases that are prosecuted in international courts? Why is there are not necessarily justice? And you know, can we do better as forensic scientists in collecting traces and preserving traces that can be used you know, because generally speaking, a lot of these investigations are kind of based on eyewitness testimony or based on statements from the victim or survivor of these events, which
can be very traumatic. And so is there a way to improve the quality of forensic investigations and forensic science in that respect of dealing with you know, sexual and gender based violence and regions of conflict.
While you were in Australia, this is this will be my favorite part of the interview. While you were there, you learned some interesting facts about koalas and chlamydia. Can you please explain what you learned there?
Okay, so let me Christmas by saying I know I'm going to say this, and I was so super excited, and there's gonna be people out there that I'm gonna be like, am I not?
I had?
I do not know this. Look, I did not know this.
At all, but apparently I never heard it.
Apparently everyone was like, oh, yeah, you didn't know, and I was like, what kind of education did I get? So, for those of you who just died, no, So koalas have rampant chamydia. Right, I had no idea, not a clue.
Everyone's like, well, be careful, don't touch the koala, you know, and they're telling me like a lot of people don't like koalas, which I learned that too, because you look and you're like, oh, they're adorable, and people like, oh, they're so disgusting, and the hints that's where the chlamydia came up. But yeah, so I learned koala's have never.
Heard of that. You never heard of that either, absolutely never heard of that.
Everyone looked at me like I was a box of rocks because I did not know that, and like, and I will tell you all out there if you are interested in forensic science, it is okay to say you don't know something. Uh you know, But yeah, I had no clue. And so that was the focus on our conversation. Right, So we started talking about tattoos and doing this podcast, and then once I dropped the chlamydia bomb on you, which could mean so many things out of context, yeah,
So that's what I learned about koalas and chlamydia. So they apparently just eat, sleep and do that thing.
So there's and and there's human transmission. Is that that's the That's why they're saying that you shouldn't be holding them and stuff, like there's a way somehow, I mean, because I'm not one hundred percent sure about the transmission of it. I feel like it would have to be some kind of contact with an infected fluid into your body this like the same way you would get it sexually, right,
So is that is that the concern? Like, you know how they say you shouldn't handle reptiles because they carry salmonella and a child could like touch their butt by accident and put their hand in their mouth and then all of a sudden. I mean, I guess in theory, if if it, if the chlamydia somehow gets on your hand and then you rub that finger in your eye, you could transmit it or I mean, I guess, I
don't know. Now I really want to look into this because I'm really interesting because I just look at them as like, oh I want one as a pet. They look like cut a little bit of stuffed animals.
Yeah, but cute little buggers. But yeah, I honestly don't know, and I probably should have looked into this since I knew we were going to go down this chlamydia road. But yeah, I don't know. But you know, I'm not going to make out with the damn Koala, like, you know, let's let let's not make it weird. I guess maybe also because they have like those long little kloi things, like maybe potentially they can scratch. But I don't know anything about Koala to human transmission or if we can
transmit to them and make their lives worse. I have no clue, but you know, because I was just so overwhelmed with the fact that Koalas have commydia that I just I still can't get past it.
I know I can't either. It's so crazy. Okay, So, for those of you that don't know, you have an excellent Instagram account that's Forensic Underscore Tattoo and you have close to one hundred thousand followers, So like a lot of people are already into it, but can you explain to us, like what made you start this Instagram account and what your experience has been with it?
So I was actually started to pick up, you know, doing a lot of interviews, and one of the individuals that interviewed me was like, watch on Instagram, and I was like, social media all for this shit? Sorry, but yeah, So I created the Instagram account. And then I have to thank you because you know, I'm just kind of waiting out there, just wait, trying to navigate, you know, social media as an adult is difficult, you know. And so then you and I connected and that certainly helped,
and so I actually really love it. I have not put in a very long time, and it's partly because I've been so busy. I when I create my post, when I curate them, I am a fat checker, Like I don't like giving I like giving the most accurate information I can, considering a lot of them come from news sources and are very limited. So for me, it's a lot of involvement to create a post right to
actually because I will check multiple sources. I like to have more than three sources where they're at least consistently consistently saying the same thing. But I can also use that to my advantage because when someone says a tattoo on the left shoulder, a tattoo on the right shoulder. Then I'm like, look, even the media can't get it straight. Or it's a tattoo of a dog, No it's a wolf, No, it's this no, you know, so I can use that to my advantage to say, look, I've checked all these things.
Here's the consistent story. But notice that there's variation even with the location or the description, which drives me crazy too, because just post the damn pick sure of the tattoo, right, don't give me like this like novella about your description of it, because you heard it from a cop who heard it from a detective who was at Autosi. Right. So you get all these different, you know, accounts of the tattoo, and sometimes it's difficult to even get the
photograph of the tattoo. But so I put a lot of time into my posts, and you know how it is, you know, you write this nice, beautiful thing, and then people are annoyed at you because you didn't explain one thing and they don't realize you have a word count, you know. And then you know, most people are really receptive and really interested, uh, you know, and then you get people that just are like so sucky and you're just like, come on, you know, like I'm doing the
best I can here. We're getting this information out, you know, see the value of uh, you know, promoting the purpose of tattoos or helping to disseminate this information so that maybe this individual can be identified. So I do love Instagram, you know, social media aspect of it, although I haven't
used it in a while. Maybe I'll be inspired, like I'm looking, I guess for inspiration to make sure people still want to hear my voice, you know, because sometimes I feel like it's the echo chamber where I'm just like, tattoos are so great, let's use them. And then you know, then I see like my followers decreased and I'm like, okay, all right, no problem. So you know that's a little frustrating, but you know, hopefully the message is out there.
I could I understand that because I feel the same exact way. But I think that there's been over the past couple of years, there's been like a change in Instagram that everybody can agree with. And it is like I'm in the same boat, Like I put hours of time into writing posts and stuff, and then it's like they'll get posted nobody will see it, it'll get deleted
because it violates something that it doesn't really violate. It's and it's it is stressful to the point where I mean, in the past couple of years, I've just been like not anywhere near on the level I used to be on it because it's just like it's like a beat down all the time. There's only so much you want to deal with that, you know. But I do think that you should because I don't I even think like you're saying the followers going down and stuff, that's like
all an Instagram problem. That's not like your content problem, I personally feel because I've just I just saw a change, and talking to other influencers and stuff, I think that they see it as well across the board. So it's it's not I think you should keep doing what you're doing, because it's not that it's just I just think it's like an Instagram problem, not a not a you problem. So I know, right, and I agree with you too.
With the negative experiences, it's always somebody's like number one, you and I are humans, so it's like you will make mistakes from time to time, even if it's just like a simple spelling error or something, and then obviously, like you'll spend hours writing up this whole thing, and then some jark has to call you out and be like, yo, but you didn't mention this, and you're like, yeah, I have, like I don't even know what it is on Instagram
how many characters you're allowed to have now? But every single time I write something, I have to like water it down because, yeah, because you can't put everything, it's not possible. And if you really like put the text that's in an Instagram post in a word document, it's like it's a small little paragraph, so you only could
fit so much stuff, yeah, in a post. So do you have so you said you're not really posting on Instagram, do you have any other social media that you're on or you just kind of are like, I mean I get it, because I'm over it too, but do you do do stuff on like Twitter or anything?
I have a Twitter account, but you know, again, it's like, you know, you put that stuff out in the ether, and it just kind of like, I don't you know what it is. I feel weird. I'm one of those people that's like Twitter is like that person that opens up their window and just yells something out to the world, you know what I mean. Like I always that always stuck with me because I feel like it's just like, you know, you just say something and are people listening?
Are they not? Are they liking? Are they retweeting? Like like it's just I don't know. I'm like, so, I don't know. I'm not that kind of person that believe it or not. Although I spent like half this time talking about myself, I'm not that kind of person that like just really likes to talk about myself or try to bring extra attention to myself, you know when I you know, you don't see me doing makeup tutorials and then going I look at sims. Yeah, you know. So
it's not my jam to really be like that. So I do. Don't you love my extra long answers for everything? So No, I don't have a Twitter.
They're good, They're good.
I do have a Twitter account, but I don't really use it because I like whatever I'm TikTok. I can't so as a forensic scientist, as someone who is in a program, you know that is big on digital forensics and digital forensic investigations, I'm like very personally wary of TikTok, and I'm also like, I'm very cautious with you so of computers and technologies anyway, you know, I don't want all my information out there in general. But yeah, I just can't be like dancing around be like, oh, let
me tell you about death today on TikTok. Yeah, I know, right, it's so weird. I can't make it Google like I can beat goofy or I could be you know, my formal you know, doctor Miranda is talking about stuff. But I mean, like to mix those two together and doing the running ban while I'm talking about you know, like a crime scene investigation is just like weird to me. You know. So I haven't gone on the TikTok bandwig and I pretty much just stick to Instagram and you know, let it ride.
Yeah, it's I feel the same way. It's it's really gimmick, like gimmicky. I can't. I can't do it either. I mean, my daughter like made to TikTok for us, and she deals with it. I don't even know how to log into I don't know how to log into it. I don't understand what it is, and I have no interest. I'm just too old. But all right, So you are an associate professor in the Center for Criminal Justice Studies farming Dale State College or College State University of New York.
When did you When did you start working there?
So I think I've been there for like twelve years now roughly.
Well that's that's impressive.
Yeah.
And and so you you're a professor of students. What what's this? Do you have students from all different majors or what what is the typical major of a person that you're teaching at the school.
So most of my students are criminal justice. A lot of them want to go into law enforcement. But you know, as we see the changing tide with criminal justice and policing, we've seen a lot more students that are interested in something else other than policing or law enforcement. You know, they say, you know, I know, criminal justice is where
I want to be, I just don't know where. And so some of them may want to go into law, some of them may want to go into like victim services working with victims or survivors, juvenile delinquency, or even you know, probation parole, like the back end. So we're seeing, like, you know, this changing tide of the criminal justice student landscape, but it's kind of cool. At first, I was like, ah,
I'm like a forensic scientist. I should be in a lab and doing science and have my little microscopes and my spectrometers, and I should be just analyzing evidence with
students all day. So when I went into a criminal justice program, I was like, but I actually really enjoy it because I can teach the criminal justice students, like I mentioned before the Sydney Declaration, and I mentioned before like my thoughts on crime scene investigation, which again is a whole other topic, but I can teach them the importance of like critical thinking and problem solving and how important that can be to the work that they do
if they become a detective. Right, So what is criminal investigation entail? What is crime scene investigation and reconstruction tail? When should you say, I don't know, I need to call in a forensic expert, whether it be a scientist or a pathologist, or even a more specialized expert, whether
it's an entomologist or anthropologist. But giving these individuals the opportunity to like be or go into law enforcement, possibly be detectives one day, possibly be bosses, and for them to be a little bit more cautious with how they address the crime scene, you know, is something that I really enjoy teaching, and I hope that they take that with them and then remember like Maranda told me not to touch this, you know, like Marenna told me to call in the expert.
You know.
So hopefully, you know, they'll take those lessons away with them, you know. And so that's been pretty cool to work with criminal justice students.
Yeah, I think it's important to have a teacher like you in college because you you also, like when I remember when I was in school and I first started seeing that I was interested in the microscope and stuff. It's like you have some biology teachers that went to school for biology and then they just became professors and then.
But my one teacher was a microbiologist that worked in a hospital, and she was the most She was like a pivotal person in my life and my career because she had so much experience, like working in the real world and kind of guiding me towards towards like what I wanted to do based upon like what I was telling her I liked. So it's awesome to have a teacher like you because you have so much experience from so many different areas of the field, and I think
you're making like a huge impact on their life. You probably, like, are just sit back and say whatever. I don't think I do, but they they probably just think that you're awesome. I'm sure because I would love to have a teacher like you obviously. So I know that I know you're an expert in tattoos. But do you have any tattoos yourself?
Yes, So of my tattoos you cannot see when I'm wearing clothes. Most of my tattoos are on my neck and my back, you know, all the rest of the song goes, I'm just yeah, that's me with like a you know, my my good old dad joke. So yeah, most of my tattoos are located on my back, my side, and a couple on my wrists. Yeah, so I am. I am officially tattooed.
Did you have them before you started all of this research in this field or you you've gotten them more recently?
Uh? So I did. I was tattooed before I started my research, and then from there I started to I did get a tattoo for my research. So I got a tattoo on my wrist that was specifically designed based upon the the ice Maiden found mummified remains of a female that was believed to be high ranking in her society.
So I did get her tattoo on my wrist, and I added color to it so that I could actually look at it under the microscope with the instrumentation I wanted to see, yeah, if I could blast it with the laser and actually detect the pigments in my skin. So I did get that for my research, and then
the other ones have kind of been linked. When I got my book, you know, I tattooed something very large for when my book came out, when I finished my PhD. And then I've gotten sort of things that are linked to some of the other publications and work that I've done, so a lot of them. Again, we were talking about like meaning and interpretation. You know, I believe sometimes that tattoo is just a tattoo, right, Sometimes you just pick something out, You're like, that's cool, I just want it.
But for me, my tattoos, a lot of them have you know, meaning to me that other people may not get and probably would think, you know, sociopath, I guess because if you have like skill or weird things on your body, you know, something wrong with you, according to you know, some society people. But yeah, so I do have a lot of tattoos, and they've kind of been little, you know, milestones in my career that have been important to me.
Yeah, that's cool. I have like a combination of both. And another thing too, is like what you would pick at some age, because I got my first tattoo when I was fifteen, I think fifteen or sixteen, and then started getting most of my tattoos when I was in my late teens and early twenties, which I probably wouldn't
get the same things today. But I have a mixture of like, Okay, I just think butterflies are cool and I have a lot of them, and then I have other ones that are super meaningful, So I get that that's cool.
And you did did you do? I'm sorry, I'm totally cutting you off. Now I'm going to interview you. Now you did some blacking now too.
Right, Yeah, it's just a whole It was just the only reason that I did it is because my leg tattoos have just started when I was seventeen and just tried to fix it and tried to fix it and just made it progressively worse. So then I started, I was like, oh, I'll just black out my whole leg, and I got half of it done and then I never finished it, and instead I should have probably just attempted to get it lasered. Maybe I don't know. And now it's I don't even want to think about lasering
that much skin, so I just kind of leave it alone. Yeah, I'm just over it. I had three kids natural childbirth. I'm just like, I'm old and I'm over being in pain anymore. Like I just don't I just need a break for right now. I haven't gotten tattooed in a while. It's just and I don't know if I ever told you know, I have like that weird skin thing that I end up getting with the sun exposure. And I also from time to time get asthma attacks when I get tattooed, and I don't know, I don't know what
that's about. But that's another concern, Like do I really need to be I mean, whatever if I have to take the nebula. But like there was a couple of times I had to go to the emergency room because I just I couldn't. I couldn't make it go away by myself. And I thought that that was kind of a little ridiculous to be going having to go to the emergency room for asthma because I'm getting tattooed. It's I have kids and stuff. It's just like it's not it's not worth it to me. I know, right, It's
just and I'm just I'm just over it. It's like it's just been all my life. I'm just over it. Since we're both women that work in this this kind of creepy field of death, and I personally think that we're both very normal people, but people think that we're weird because we like to be around dead people or whatever. So what are what Obviously you're a person and everybody thinks that you should you know, you should wear black all the time and and just you're always into death
and skulls and everything. But like, what are some things that you like to do outside of forensic set that maybe could be a little bit more relatable to the average woman.
All Right, so I will I will check those boxes of Yeah, I love to wear black. As you can see, I'm dressed very brightly right now, where gray, But yeah, I do like uh, you know, long walks in the cemetery. But uh, I love to travel. Travel is like really important to me, especially since COVID. I love uh seeing the world, and I do actually love visiting cemeteries in other countries to see like you know, how people treat the dead. Uh, you know how people decorate and the
symbolism of like, you know, tombstone. So I do have that little creepy side of me. You know that's added to my travel. Uh. I like to travel. I like to shop. I'm fipping girl, No, I like the older I get. Like I keep going through these phases where I'm like, Okay, instead of having more of like cheaper stuff, I want less of more expensive stuff. Does that make sense?
Yeah?
Yeah. So I find myself, you know, treating myself more than I probably should. But like if I do a little you know, if I do some good work, I'm like, let me go to channel. I do really like that. I like, you know, I'm like an art nerd. I'm like a fashion nerd. I know it sounds like super bizarre because like I would not wear like half the things that I like, love and see, but like, I
don't know, it's a very weird quirky things. Uh, but uh, I'm trying to think of something I would do that's very What's some girly What's a girlly thing I do?
Just like you don't knit every night or so just I don't even mean that, Like I don't. I don't really do. I don't do anything like that either, but just like I like gardening and I like taking care of my plants, just like other stuff that. But obviously I feel the same way. Like we we travel, not not internationally, but we take road trips a lot. And every single time I go on a road trip, I'm always like, Okay, what who got murdered here? And like what could I write about this? You know? So I
mean there's definitely that. And then I bring my kids and my husband along too because they're on the trip with me. So I'm like, we have to we have to go on this haunted tour dinners. Yeah, exactly. Are you working on any other projects right now? I know you just got done doing this big lecture, so you're probably just like trying to chill after that big trip and everything.
I am always I'm one of those people that's always on, like I always am and am writing or looking at stuff like I am that, like I like fusing like forensic science and pop culture and like I mentioned earlier,
like forensic science at art. So I'm like one of those people that, like I watch a movie or a new TV show like Okay, they just came out like the full of the House of Usher, right, So I'm like watching that show and I always am constantly like trying to break it down, see like the elements of it, horror, forensic sign you know, where does it all tie in
and stuff. So for projects right now now, I'm doing some more you know, wacky pop culture stuff and always tattoo stuff is always something that's just gonna be with me forever. You know, I have some grad students doing research and I guess, h you know, you've inspired me. So maybe I should start making some more Instagram posts and get back into that gig, because you know, I
do like sharing that knowledge. But yeah, I am trying to take a little bit of a breather for like the holiday, and then once like January hits, I'll be back hitting the ground running with some crazy wacky ideas of I don't know whatever.
Yeah, this the social media thing is like one thing like a tip I could give to you that I find useful is like I do a thing called Mystery Diagnosis and I call it like Mystery Monday, and it forces me to do it every single Monday, because I'm like, I can't push this off till tomorrow. It's not Monday.
It has to be done on Monday. And I'm pretty I take off a couple of times a year, like for Chris Smith or something, but for the most part, it's like, all right, I'm gonna make this commitment that every single Monday I'm posting, and it just it works because it's there's no there's no procrastination allowed with it because it is. It is annoying, trust me. But all right, So we could find you and we're gonna push people there because we and that's going to force you to
start posting more at Forensic Underscore Tattoo. And also, I just got your book. I don't know why I don't have it yet, but I don't, but I just got it. It's on the way. So then I'm gonna have to be forced to actually meet you in person, and so you could sign it for me. But it's called Forensic Analysis of Tattoos and Tattoo Incs. And it was on Amazon and it was on eBay and stuff. So I think any person that's interested in forensics should get it.
I'm I'm really excited to see it because obviously I'm into tattoos and I'm into forensic so I think it'll be awesome. I can't wait. Is there anything else you want to tell anybody or not.
It's been great spending time with you. It's always a good time.
Yeah, thanks so much for being here today. It was It was really great, and I hope that we get to hear more from you because I think that you have so much to offer women in forensics and it's just it's just really great what you're doing.
Thank you. Yeah, there's there's layers here, but you know, I think I think that women should be you know, pushing it a little bit and you know, get out there and you know, do and you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a DNA like we find a lot of females in the DNA field, but go into traces, go into microscopy, go into investigations, you know, and crimecy reconstructions, and push push the envelope there a little bit, you know, when you google a lot of forensic science heroes, you know,
you see a lot of the traditional, you know, white male faces come back at you, you know, so would like it would be good to see some more women really pushing it with forensic science in the field and with research, and so that's what I'd really love to see.
Yeah, I think it's hard because it's just it's just people. People don't know. And that's and interviews like this are great because it's just like another job you could learn about that you can do if you have interest in it. So thank you again so much for being here today.
All welcome. It was great to see you.
Thank you for listening to Mother nos Death. As a reminder, my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge of those subjects at the time of publication. If you are having a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks