Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jemmy.
Hi, everyone, welcome the Mother Knows Death. On this week's External Exam, we will be having our most requested guests, my husband, doctor Gabriel, and Jemmy. Hi. Gabriel, welcome to the show. Hi.
Hi, it's nice to be here.
Is it weird for me to call you Gabriel because I don't think I've ever called you by your first name in the past, only went in.
Trouble, right, It's the weirdest part is doctor, just don't do that.
Well, we're so proud of your accomplishment. So let's start off by talking about the awesome trip that we just took. Why do you want to tell everyone why we drove across the country for two weeks?
Well, there was supposed to be just to culminate at graduation, right, Like that was the whole plan. Drive out and drive back and and like ultimately go to Los Angeles and graduate from school. But like, why do that without all the awesome stuff? You know?
Yeah, that was so much fun. So why don't you tell everybody what you graduated from? Why? Why were we going there? Where'd you go to school?
So I was in an educational doctorate program at USC for organizational Change in leadership, sort of like the last the last degree conferral in the like a ten year process. There's a bachelor's in Public Safety administration, a master's in Emergency and Disaster Management, and the organizational Change in Leadership. So I just kind of like spread it out a little bit, and that's all like a reflection of like what I experienced at my job and what i'd like
to try to like think about. So yeah, it was a program that I thought worked for me as a professional with like a job and a family that I could kind of do and then it just fit right, like it was doable. I mean, it was hard as shit, but it was it was doable.
So that's one thing that I wanted to talk to you about, is when you go to school for something that's really hard and vigorous like this. One of the things that we always talk about as a couple is how important it is for each other to support each other and stuff we're seeing like all the time on
the news right now. You know, our daughters are like major swifties, and all we hear about is Travis and Taylor, and you see all these news stories about how they're always supporting each other and going to each other's shows and concerts and stuff, and they make such a big deal about it news and I think it's so weird because that's what you're supposed to do when you're in a relationship with someone.
Yeah, I mean, like certainly it it's complex in a different way maybe for the people you mentioned than it is for us, but like like like being a normal person right where like I'm not flying to your.
Engagement, You're definitely not a normal person, so just well neither am I.
But you understand what I'm saying. It's just like it's home, it's under one roof, and it's just like the understanding of that, like I'm going to have to pick up X amount of weight while this clown is kind of like thinking or like sitting with these ideas over here, like he's kind of unavailable for X amount of hours a day or even years, right like, and like you've got to to kind of know that going into it.
I swear I asked for permission to do it, right, like, even even with it, just like you know, try to be a gentleman about it, because like obviously it's going to put a big strain on on anyone's relationship. I would think, even in the way that like I, you know, like kind of push education or like academia on the guys I work with, and I will tell them, like, you know, and you and I talk all the time about, oh,
like you're in a good position. You might not have children, or like you have where we look at it, like we have like all these other kind of responsibilities that tend to along with the education aspect, so like and everything that comes along with that, right, like mood swings, being pissy, just being like fried emotionally or like mentally, You've got to be ready to support that and kind of like give somebody a wide berth and I, you know,
now maybe it's your turn. I'm going to push you to go back.
So no, we always Well, let's let's talk about this a little bit, because I think that I would consider our relationship to be really good and strong now, but it wasn't always like that. So let's let's go back a little bit to when when we first met. Where do where do we meet? We both have kind of different stories about how.
That went down, but I mean there are different stories but only mine's accurate. So yeah, I think if I remember correctly, certainly the wahwah thing. But like I was coming off shift and I lived not too far from one, so I would typically stop there every day as I'm coming out of work, coming out of the firehouse, like a mess of like maybe not sleeping or whatever, like ha been just gone fires or whatever, and and like getting a coffee and then.
And then you saw me, and it was like slow motion and you were like, there's the girl my dreams in this giant like beam of light was over my head.
Yeah, I mean that's that's fairly accurate, except for like what came.
All after that, except for none of it.
She might she might be the girl of my dreams, but she's like a crazy person.
No.
But but so like my take on that is I happen to just bullshit with you, like hey, uh, I thought you had a ring on or something, and I was just like, you have a sister or something like that, like just trying to make small talk.
Yeah, I had my I had my key ring around my hands because I was getting my cup of coffee, and he thought it was a wedding ring. And then he was like oh, are there any single girls like you who aren't married?
No? You, it was something I have a sister, right, like no.
But you said like are there any girls like you that aren't married or something like that. Yeah.
So so there's the whole like I'm not married response, and then I'm up against it like, oh, well, like now I guess I'm I'm sort of like stuck here with this conversation this guy. Yeah. So, so we bullshitted in the store and that kind of like spilled out into the parking lot, and then that became like a normal occurrence.
Right.
It was like I would run into you there often. I felt like, you know here.
Or there ye before every day exchanges.
So having said that every day bit, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring in Maria's version of this. That was more or less like you saw me one day there that I didn't see you, and then like Maria was rushed every morning trying to get to school and like you were late to pick other people up and you were this or that, like as you were stalking me at the wah wah, like waiting for me to show up and get coffee. Like that was That's like my.
Version I don't. I don't know if Maria ever collaborated that story.
But well you don't on another podcast where like this can kind of like go down a rabbit hole on another thing or whatever. But like you asked Maria and see what she says, and I'm going to be like I'm winning.
You have the story all wrong. Okay. So so the first day that we met, we exchanged numbers that day actually, and then we went out on a date a couple of days later. You didn't have a cell phone yet, so I called I had to call your house. Yeah, right, so I either had to call your house or email you email. So we went and we went on our first date, and if I thought it was pretty good. We went out to dinner, and then you drove us to Ocean City and and then we left and I
and we like had to make out sessh. And then I was like, oh, this guy is awesome. I was like s into him, and and then he, you know, just started being weird for like the next forever.
Yeah, but like till up until like right this very second, like.
For like three whole years, just terrible, just we just couldn't get it together.
Well, I mean, I was plenty together, but like you were in a big rush, like and I just was on my own timeline and kind of like you can even ask the cats at the firehouse, like, yeah, there's a few I would even say out loud, like these guys would hear me talk and be like, oh, this girl's rad, Like I think she's solid or whatever, like this could be it, Like I think I might have found her, and like she's exactly it, but like she's just in such a damn hurry to like you know, well.
If I was so rad, why why not harry?
Like because I just had like the terrible views on on like long term permanency and marriage, I guess stemming from my childhood.
But like, oh, but now that you're getting it out, at least we know with the problem. Yeah, well but it so it was. It was rough for a couple of years. And that's one of the things that I wanted to talk about, was I feel like, I mean we've almost in July. We have met like sixteen years ago. That was a long time ago, a long time ago, and I think that it was a combination of like me trying to rush you and you not communicating your fears about things. That is why it took so long
for us to like jive. And then when we finally communicated better and then we started really trusting each other, like telling each other our like deepest darkest secrets and stuff, that's when that's when things got really good between us. But it took a long time to get to that point for sure.
And you know, it's easy for me to think about the idea of like mutual trust like in the firehouse or on the fire ground or something like that, like, but with the relationship, it just wasn't like it just wasn't like something that I was really looking at or like considering it all. So so like I feel like once I sort of took the principles of that from work,
which is maybe reverse engineering it or whatever. But like once you understand that concept and the team idea and trust, like then it's sort of like all downhill from there, I guess.
Yeah. And I think that we that's our biggest thing is that we work as a team. One of the things that you always hear about your friends complaining and stuff relationships is like this one does too much, this one doesn't do enough. And you hear about like these male female roles and stuff, and Gabe and I are very like, like Gabe does all the laundry for our entire house, all the kids, me, everybody. I don't even really know how to work the washing machine, and I
mow the lawn. But then we also do very traditional things like I cooked dinner every night and you I refuse to take out the trash unless you're at work, of course, but that's like not my job. So we were very good with those sort of yeah.
I mean that the roles are sort of like it's like the off sideline in soccer, right, like it floats, like some days it's over here, some days it's over there, and like I have no problem kind of like like I think we just fell into roles like that where it's like, okay, it's obvious that like Nicole doesn't like to do laundry.
Right, So like wait, why was it obvious?
Well, because it just stacks off and then it's like, you know, and I know where this comes from, like actually had to. I probably not blast mom, mom or whatever, but you know how you two, you and Marie would always go on these tangents about the towels, right, And I used to think it was just so wild. I'm like, why would there ever be like a stack? So she
tells me like and it was really interesting insight. She's like, oh, well, we would just think that like it was one towel per shower, like and we would just throw them on the floor. And I'm thinking, like, well, that's what people do, like at the Hampton, right, like you use it once or you throw it down, and even the Hampton puts the signs up like hey, so we don't have to wash these repeatedly, like you know, you can dry this and use it again. Like I just I had this
conversation with a towel with your middle child earlier. It's like so I'm like, oh so so like she just wants to stack it up and stack it up, and like there's going to have this like made idea like the maid will come and take care of it or somebody else. So I'm just like I'm taking care of that because if I don't, nobody's going to. And like that's what I mean. It just sort of like it becomes an understanding and like it's maybe not even verbal.
It's like a non verbal thing and you figure it out and you just stort of like act accordingly.
It's kind of funny how a lot of the problems that you have in your relationship as you get older are kind of stemmed from things that you grew up thinking was completely normal.
As I have so many problems.
Yeah exactly. But then when you really get to know your partner and you get and you get to kind of like dissect all that out and see like, well, why are they doing that? Well, like you were just describing with something simple like the towels, Like I don't know, I just thought that was normal kind of you know, I grew up like that. And and that's like when people say that you can't change in relationships and stuff, I totally disagree with that.
I do too, And I think that like and I'm certainly no like relationship like guru or whatever, right, but like I think the thing with it that I would take away is like patience, right, Like you can't figure that out if you're just like willing to call it quits really quickly and be like you know what I'm done here, Like this is bullshit. There's something that really brought you to that person or kept you around that person, Like, then you've got to just start like navigating the stuff
that you don't like. Just because you don't like X, Y and Z doesn't necessarily mean that you need to just call it quits, right, Like it's it takes work, like and you need to develop an understanding, and if you're like not spending time figuring that out and putting the energy into it, then like you're you're not going to get it back.
Right Like, Yeah, and that could be said about lots of different aspects of life, like going to school and quitting like things.
That's all connected.
Yeah, It's like anything that's hard you have to work hard for, and a marriage is really hard work. I feel like now it's a lot easier for us because we kind of but I mean we've been together for.
I think it is a lot of time. And to your point earlier, like it was very difficult at least for me, and I'm sure I drove you mad, but like for me personally, like it was hard because these are concepts and like things where like I just I never had that. There was never an example of that from my from my end, you know what I mean.
My parents were divorced when I was very young, and like it was just a constant battle between the two of them, and like, so that's what I knew, right, Like I didn't really know what the other side of that looked like. So if you're going to ever figure that out, you need to spend some time in that box and like trust the other person and like kind of get over yourself or whatever your weird ideas might be of like what a relationship is or should be. You know, if you don't know, you don't know.
And I think for anybody that's that's in a situation where their partner grew up in a non traditional type of home without that, it's it's very it's very hard for me to think, like, if you don't one percent trust like your parents, how could you really trust anyone else in the world if your parents are your number
one right people that you're supposed to trust. And for me, like I, you know, I grew up with my mom and dad were always there and stuff, so it was hard for me to grasp like why you were acting in certain ways. And then once we kind of got on board with that, I think it and and it also helps us with our kids now, like what we think is important for them, And the one of the biggest things is that we don't want to fight in
front of them. We don't really fight because you just know that I'm always right.
And.
Yeah, I mean we don't. I mean you get you get on my nerves for sure, and I get on your nerves.
But I'm sure I get on everybody's right. Like I have that shirt somewhere that says I'm not for everyone, Like that's this is like very true, especially for you. But like like the fun thing is like in a way that you can leverage my job at least I disappear for a shift, right, so like or if I go work a mutually like whatever, like you'll get space.
So like even if we're heated about something or you're super pissed, like you might give me the cold shoulder for upwards of a week, but at some point, like it works itself out, right, Yeah, I mean, I.
Mean we were just together for like three weeks and it was kind of weird when you went to work. I was like, well, this is weird. You were around every single day, and it just it's just getting easier as it does. We learn.
It's the one thing I would say, like, you know you're young, you think you get a career and everything just gets easier and you afford your bill whatever like.
It.
Like that's not true, Like things just keep getting more and more complicated or harder and harder. But when you do put the work in, I mean, the relationship itself, I think has gotten easier and easier, and like you know, and maybe some of the stuff that we'll discuss later like sort of plays into this, but but we'll get to that. I guess as far as like like jobs and like professional life impacting, yeah, you know, the home life.
Well, let's talk a little bit about education, because you're super into academia now and you just got your doctorate. I'm super but you're but you you're you're forty eight and just got your doctorate right now, So clearly you had a huge life before being forty eight years old. You're a little bit older than the traditional student that
goes right from high school. So let's talk about because this is something that I think would be encouraging because we have similar stories as to how we grew up and we were kind of marked as being like the dumb kid, and how we didn't really ever get pushed to go to college. And that's partially because our parents are from a blue collar background. And you know, my dad was a mechanic. My mom stayed home with us most of the time, and she didn't go to college
until we were much older. Your your mom was a homemaker too, and then your dad was a fireman. So let's talk about when when you went to school, Like, you weren't really into school when you went to school, right, grade school?
No, And they, like, to my father's credit, he worked multiple side jobs, right, so my sister and I could be afforded like a parochial school education, right, Like, they understood the importance of education, while they might not have understood the importance of like the things we already talked about, like not fighting in front of it, like you know what I mean, Like, but they did understand that to some extent, at least in that it was like like
maybe the typical or the appropriately trending thing to do. So yeah, yeah, I wasn't a huge fan of school. Once I found a skateboard, Baseball went by the wayside, soccer went by the wayside, and and then like largely school or anything formal, right, like anybody telling me what to do, like I mean, walking down Sass Street, I
think I might have been eleven years old. My father, we took me, We parked, We parked our truck at eleven's Philly fire department right there at South and whatever ninth maybe, And like I'm walking down the street as a very young kid, seeing people like sleeping in doorways and like sort of with this punk rock haircut and everything, I was just like, you know, the hell with every
single person's rules. I'm just you know, doing whatever I want, which is like super liberating but also like really self destructive and kind of like childish in a way. But but like I got rooted in that, and and I'd circle back that, you know, eventually with this conversation. But I was happy to get out of school at eighteen. It was like I barely graduated high school. I was
on the work release program. I got thrown out of a parochial school in my junior year and went to a public school, which probably helped me get a you know, a high school diploma. And like my last year. The only reason why I was able to pull that off because I probably would have dropped out like a boatload of my friends were doing and just you know, try to get a GD if that. But I was in
a work release program. I went and I was a sandwich artist, you know, at subway around the corner from my home, and I did that, and doing that helped keep me in school, but getting me out at like noon every day where you know, I'd work a few hours at the job and then I can get on this skateboard and go like to Philly or whatever at skateboard. So twenty years goes by before I even consum are
going back to school, right. I graduated high school in ninety four and i'd start Newman I think in fourteen, twenty fourteen.
So and what was like, do you know what the final thing was that was like I have to do this now? Like what was the final push? Because we always hear about even friends of ours and also just people that message me on Instagram or people in the grosser room that they'll just say, I really feel like I want to do this, but they just they just don't have that thing that like pushes them to start.
Yeah, So I'd consider myself to be like good at like usually good at finishing things. I start right and like once I'm interested in something, I'm as you will know, I'm like I'm all in on something like whatever that might be, even if it doesn't persist or last a long time, like I'm still all in while I'm actually doing it. And so like the academic thing, it it was maybe around twenty eleven, right, because like I said, I started Newman in twenty fourteen, but I probably started
trying to go back to school sooner than that. So and like here's a loose bid on it. The City of Camden police department was being undone, so you get you get the governory. He comes in, he slashes state aid, so like the city and this is all very like summary, right, the transitional aid from the state to the city is
like gone, like overnight, he shuts that off. And then like so the city has to make up huge budget holes, right, and like one of the ways they did that was by lanoff firemen and demoting firemen and or firefighters, right, and then they just completely disbanded like one hundred and fifty year old police force. I don't know how old they were at the time, but so the City of Candon police goes away and then like the next day it's Camden County Police. Right. So this is twenty eleven,
and you know, I remember thinking. There was a lot of talk about like they're going to do that same exact thing with the fire department, you know, and I'm over here like I think everything's good. I'm like really getting into my job. I think I'm good at it. I enjoy doing it. I've taken tons and tons of like classes for hands on stuff, very tactical based things
like learning how to do this or do that. And it just got to the point where like, hey, if they undid this fire department and like all of a sudden, they're going to be a county model tomorrow. Like what do I bring to the table, They're going to look at me on paper and be like, yeah, Like who's this cat? Like he nothing right, like barely graduated high school, is like good at his job, but like he's a sick time abuser, or he hasn't been around much, you know what I mean. Or he's just kind of like
this insubordinate punk rock kid, like with a bunch of tattoos. Right, So so it was like a very deliberate move. I'm like, well, I don't know that that's going to happen for sure or not, but like let me kind of like dabble with this, so I head towards you know, like what most people in the fire service do. It was like in associates in fire science or something like that. So
I'm immediately disgruntled. While I try to do that. I test into Candon County College and what do you know, they won't even put me in college classes, right, Like
that wasn't unexpected on my part. But like I published articles in like Fire Engineering and Urban Firefighter magazine, Like I'm a published author in trade magazines, and you know, Candon County told me I had to go to like Writing Skills three or something instead of like college level courses, right, But I wasn't deterred, Like, so I start with these and then like at some point I promoted right now, and I'm skipping forward some years is twenty fourteen, I
promote to captain and I get my first assignment as
Engine eleven. And my friend Max stops by the firehouse and he's in Cohort one at Newman program, and he basically explains to me, like how he got in and how he took like is all this prerec stuff that he like had been doing with hands on classes and how they kind of like do that with the registrar and they'd like convert you know, hours of education into CEUs or whatever, and like I'm not going to go into depth on that, but I basically went to Newman.
I met doctor Donnelley, and thank god, she kind of explained it to me and then sent me like immediately on the path home to like take these I had like a three inch stack of stuff, right, like just hours and hours and hundreds of hours of courses from like you know, the State's task Force for the user urban search and rescue work and like all the training and all the hands on stuff you'd put in, and they converted it and like I wound up being just
shy in ninety credits through their matrix to get into that program. And so I did it, and then like I had to acquire a few things like what do they call that you might know? Is a clip? Does
sound right? Is that the word? Like to to get like a couple of credits that I needed to like meet the ninety I was like around eighty six or something like with the way they converted it all, and then so I I start that program and then it was on like all of a sudden, I just found this thing where I'm like, oh, man like, and that's the difference in doing it as like a grown up,
right as you're not a child anymore. Like you're not like being told to do this, Like it's intrinsic motivation and it's steering you to like be the best version of yourself. So it's not like and the sucks, I gotta go here. All I want to do is wright a skateboard. And now it's like no, Like, the stuff I'm learning right now is helping me better be better at work, like, and therefore I'm more affective with the people I'm around, and I'm more effective with the civilians
in the city. Right, Like, it just it just starts to grow, and like your mind expands and you just start seeing things that were like completely lost to you, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I mean I feel the same way. Like it's you're doing something that you want to do, that you choose, that you're interested in. You're just not reading some stupid book because your teacher told you to. It's like all it's all about what you want and the same exact thing, like your your story could be the same as mine. It's just like a different field.
That I want into Yeah, I don't think it is too much different. And like, from an artistic standpoint, I remember being turned on, like the one year we drove my friend Matt and Kevin and Ryan we drove to We started in San Diego and then headed up to San Francisco. This is not ninety seven or something, but it was all about skateboarding and Serge was with us, and like, I started reading on the Road and I was like, man like on the Road by Jack Harrowuth, you know, and I'm like.
Which I hate, I wasn't going to go there, but.
But like I'm like, man like, I had no idea that that like writing a book or reading a book could be like enjoyable like this, or could like make you think about life or existence in like a in a way you know, where where it was actually fun
or cool, you know. And that's I think just something that a lot of people miss because maybe it is just because they're being told to do it, you know, or it's just kind of thrust upon them whether they like it or not, and until they find that one thing that makes it all click, whatever that might be, they miss they miss out on.
I do think that I've seen a difference with a little bit of that with our kids going to school now that they are a little bit more open to them reading things that they're interested in and as well as audio books are a big thing that they're okay with. When when we were kids, remember it used to be able to get like a book on tape right at the library that was super frowned upon, like you were not It was like cheating if you read a book in that way. And now it's it's considered to be okay.
Because I'm more of an audio learner, as you know, It's very hard for me to sit down and read a book, but I could listen to a book and get a lot out of it. And it's cool at least to see that the struggles that we went through, maybe the kids are progressing a little bit now with it.
Well, I mean, I think that would start with us and them seeing us do it or at least talking about it in a positive light, like I certainly never like like that was not the case at my house growing up as a kid. It was very you know, autocratic and authoritative. Yeah, right, So, so I think the example is obviously impacting them, like in a positive way. But but I definitely would agree. I felt like an audiobook was cheating. I felt like it wasn't like if
you weren't sitting here stressing over the lines. And I'm like, I'm the guy who would find himself having to read the same page three times to comprehend it, right, And that's like as I got more into education and understanding how you know, people's cognitive abilities differ and like how you know even trauma can impact that. It's it's hell
to me understand that. Like, no, like audio books are great, like and now I'm the quote unquote nerd who will have the tangible book and listen to it on audible and then like get the book and highlight the stuff, right, So like I do it both ways. Like learning is amazing and that like in a meta kind of way, like if you learn how you learn personally, like you can really make like like fire for effect at that point, you know.
Yeah, and when we were kids, so it was just like this is the way you learn. It doesn't matter like if you feel this way or whatever, Like we all just do one thing right, and it is changing. It's not fast enough, but it is a little good.
It's not changing fast enough and it's largely still probably counterproductive in a way. But but there's people who are looking at that closely and doing a lot of really awesome work that I doubt we have the time to get into here, but like you know, I'll digress all day long, and I know, like Maria's got us on a tight time schedule here.
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All right, let's talk about Since you were just talking about art and everything, I think that we're again in a similar situation that we both consider ourselves to be artists and very artistic people, but we have these professions like I have pathology and the world of medicine. And then you have firefighting, and both of those professions are not traditionally one that an artist would have. So what do you do to kind of like let out that outlet?
I get through it with like writing and decorating our house and things like that, but like what do you do to get that out?
I mean, I feel like all I really do for an artistic outlet anymore is just photography. But at the same time, I do write quite a bit, and it'll be kind of fun to like not have to write academically anymore and like kind of develop some other stuff on my own that I that I'd prefer to do rather than what I should be doing. But yeah, I mean, like artistically speaking, I'm obviously preferring art over science all day long. I'm sort of into that like lived experiences
kind of thing. And I don't know, it's like when we met, I remember my basement had flowed, and like I had like a large show's worth of stuff floating around in my basement, and I, you know, all the stuff that I was making at the time, not photography obviously, but like I just was like, you know what, Like I think I salvaged a few things out of that and just kind of moved on from it, So like that was an outlet that I wish I could have kept all that and like worked harder sort of like
figure all that out, but like I just basically left it there. It was like a really difficult time in my life that I just I guess I had to get over it, and I just sort of counted all that art where that expression is like a casualty of all that, like like we're hitting the reset button right now, and like all this stuff is just going with it. So basically it's just mostly photography now, but like obviously there's other stuff I do. I like going out and
doing this and that. So that's the main thing.
I think. One thing that you might not even realize is like it's the biggest art project that you've done in the past couple of years, is what you've done with your firehouse.
Yeah, I mean I certainly would consider that in our project. Everybody that's stopped by friends of mine, but they're like, oh, it's like a museum in here.
Whatever.
It's like I do rather, that's a large compliment for me. And that's just you know, once you get started on something, you don't really realize like where it's headed or what
it's going. It's kind of just like this thing that builds like daily and then there's like maybe lulls in it and then like explosions where it's like it's like right, And that's not obviously, that's not just me, Like there's several people there that have like absolutely been all in on that idea also, So I would never want to claim that as my own, but like the firehouse itself has been a bit of an artistic endeavor and sort of release, and I think it's awesome, Like it's it's
a great place to go and work now.
Yeah, and I think just to explain to everybody what I'm talking about, like the firehouse was just a regular old firehouse, not too many things hanging up, and now it's he has collected all of these pics from guys that work there over the years and they're hung up
all over the place. It's when you go visit now, it's there's something to do there, a lot to do to look and it's cool that you're bringing the history of the firehouse back and it's kind of on display in such a very visual appealing thing to look at. It looks awesome.
There Yeah, I just think a lot of that was kind of missing. And you know, again with the whole thing we're speaking about on like letting the other side of your relationship kind of go and like find these things, right, like like how many hours did I go to city Hall and like pull up a journal and like have to read through it for hours to find like the one thing that I needed to do like a project, Right, So that maybe kind of plays into the relationship thing
also that we were talking about earlier. But it's been really cool and I dig it, and I and hopefully everybody else that works there kind of digs it too. So that's like the benefit of it is that we all do it together. Everybody's tracking it. They're all very aware of our history and like what it means, and like it actually has a really positive impact when we go out on the street and do things. So it's like it looks cool, but it also has like a very sort of tangible byproduct.
One of the things that we have in common, which you wouldn't necessarily think we would because we have two separate professions. But you see a lot of dead people at your job, and so do I obviously, so it's
something that we can talk about. I think that maybe for an average fireman that's just married to someone that maybe isn't in a kind of field like mine, it's not something that they can go home and discuss like, oh, I found this decomposed guy floating in the river kind of thing and describing the smell and everything, whereas I'm
like giving me more details I wanted to do. I want to know, so what kind of effect does it has to have some kind of effect on you seeing people in their worst situations.
Not to cut you off, but I would make a couple of points on there, and like you know, unfortunately the fire service is sort of stuck in some old ways,
at least from my perspective. Sometimes that the idea that like I would protect my family from like what I'm seeing and doing and like not telling them about it, I think is like the old idea of you don't need to know that, and like I got that, and I'm going to put that on my shoulders and just carry that weight and like kind of keep you ignorant to it, like deliberately, you know what I'm saying, Like you don't need to know.
That, you don't write, which I know I know that there's some environment that do that.
And a friend of mine had recently mentioned, like, you know, a family problem where they were sort of being told by their partner that they've changed and this and then and I mean, like, look, it's it's not it's not an easy thing to do or to deal with all the time, and it's I would imagine pretty different for
every person to manage that. And it's not just that like maybe one of those things is just like the last straw, because something else in my life is like a really like a challenge, like and like to go back to what I was saying when I was having the problems when I you know what, it's a seven two thousand and six seven, you know, family deaths or people going away from your life, whether that was like you know, a parent or a grandmom or a girlfriend,
whatever it might be. You know, and then that also has an impact. So like if you're kind of like already sort of down and then like you go to work and have to deal with something like it just it will quickly kind of like build, you know what I mean, and like kind of cascade into this thing that you can't get out from under, if that makes sense,
and to go back to the art thing. I remember I had this my friend Dennis McGrath who brought me to Ed Templeton's house, and I remember talking with Ed and he was like we were talking about photography, you know, and he's like I was, you know, I'm like trying to explain it to him, who like how I would delineate, like I try to keep my art and my career separate, you know, And he was just like, well, like, why would you do that? It seems like you're in a
great place to make art, you know. And it was like it was the conversation that I needed to sort of realize that I could combine these passions of mine and sort of like get better at each, you know, like it wasn't like this crazy buying, you know, a binary thing. So so I had that conversation and then it was like that actually started helping me. I want
to say that was in twenty eleven ish. It helped me just kind of understand not just like myself, but like my surrounding environment and how those things were going to impact other people. And to circle back to what I was saying about, you know, trying to keep things separate and this idea that the fire service would just be like we're just going to hold that in. Like I feel like it's like an antiquated idea of keeping things secret from like your spouse or your partner or
your children. Like maybe the children I would still you know, they don't need to know.
Yeah, I think sometimes we're talking and I'm.
Like, yeah, for sure, and and I'm just kind of like at this point, like I've kind of become an open book, so like I don't want to hide anything, but the idea that we would protect our spouse or our significant others from like what we're doing at work is not helpful. Like it's just it's like it's a
really bad idea. I think if you're going to like just keep that bottled up and somehow like try to not have your partner be a part of that, and and like like to your to your point, it was kind of almost not fun, but like it was different to be able to discuss that with you and open up about it, you know, because not only did you have like a firm understanding of like you know, the forensic aspect of it or whatever was happening, you know, to the body or whatever else, but like you were
just a good listener, and I feel like to talking about that or getting it out or getting it off of, you know, my shoulder, so to speak, it was just super helpful to help me, not like you know, crawl into a bottle over it or like dwell on it to the point where it was like debilitating.
Yeah, because you've had a couple instances of like really terrible things happening at work or even with people you know, maybe at other jobs. Yeah, just because even though you don't necessarily work in the same city as some of these firemen, it's you're you're all kind of a big family and you all know each other, and it's a lot. Yeah.
I mean, like like I've learned that a network is like really important, and I don't mean that in like like like a very sterile Like I've got a lot of good friends and other jobs, right, And then like if you're close with other people and they're experiencing things at their job that aren't you know, always going to be good, you can also have those conversations with them and sort of like help each other work their way
through that. So obviously, like the bigger your network kind of gets, the more susceptible to those kinds of things you sort of become, especially when they're professionals and other fire departments that are busy going to fires or whatever. That might be New York City, it might be Baltimore or something like that, Philadelphia right over the bridge here.
You have friends in these places and then like you see something terrible happening on the news, or like we're pretty quick with the phone and everything is so immediate, like you'll get a text, or like you might even be in an area where like even last fall, I was at an event and guy was there one minute and then a few hours later he's running a job
or fireman or are losing their lives. So the more people you meet and the bigger you grow a network or like have friends in these places, like the more susceptible you are to that, which is you know, a good and a bad thing. You know, But at the end of the day, all you can do is kind of like be there for your friends and help try to get them through it.
I know you've had a couple of situations with kids involved in these fires that you go to and stuff for. Do you think that they're like the hardest ones especially with with having little kids. I specifically remember one probably the one that I would think you would have you had the hardest time with when when our kids were around the same.
Yeah, you never, kids are always the worst. And I can't imagine or be a firefighter anywhere who wouldn't tell you that, especially once you had their own children. But I think when they're there same age as your kids,
it certainly hits home a little differently. And then when when it was your job to prevent that from happening, you know, that gets a little harder, like a harder pill to swallow, because you know, you're you're the you're the guy, right like you're the person in those places who are supposed to prevent that or stop that or you know, alter that course. And when you can't, it's just like it can be devastating on multiple fronts, you know.
So yeah, I mean it's never good to crawl into it, like a really high heat love his situation, or a high heat like fire condition and like see it, you know, a kid the same age as your kids, like like expired. You know, so that that's never easy to deal with, and and you know it's it's adults aren't easier per se. It's it's maybe just like one less aspect that you that you would be able to kind of you know, like at least they were, you know, a little older,
they had lived their lives. They were able to grow up and like enjoy lives or have their own children. Right like when you're a kid, you just you didn't get you didn't get a chance to like to live or experience life. Yeah, it's tough.
I think that's why it's important that you can talk to your family about that, because I know that some fire departments like offer help for things like that, but especially when you were going through that, Like I remember, we had to talk about it a lot, because it's just it's not something like you come home from work and talk about over coffee and it's done with. It's like nah, it takes months and years even to just really be able to move on from something like that.
Yeah, And like I mean, collectively, the fire service I think has gotten quite a bit better at this, the amount of resources and the idea that that like that they need help because it's just like a relatively new thing. It sounds kind of crazy, but it's like a new thing. It's like, oh, like we need help, right, like and and again going back to like you're the people who deliver the help, Like they call you when they're having their worst day, and then you go and solve that problem.
So so that's one of the reasons why I think firefighters struggle with it so much. And it might just be one thing, like like maybe not everybody's working in like a really busy shop, but like in the course of a career, the one thing might be what undoes your entire career. Like, so so collectively, like I said, there's there's much better resources and much better awareness around it. I don't know that I would one hundred percent agree
with all of it. Also, like I feel like there's maybe a little bit of like an enabling aspect that like isn't probably something we would get into in this realm, but like I feel we're getting better at recognizing it and sort of supporting one another and kind of getting past this like machismo bullshit. Yeah, that sort of perpetuates this idea that like you can't talk about it or you you know.
Yeah, And like as with anything, there's going to be people that legitimately need it, and then people that abuse the system. So like that's just inevitably going to happen, because it happens.
Yeah, the fire service is certainly no different than than I mean, we're all human beings, right, So like that's not it. That's not like a firefighter thing, that's just human nature.
Yeah, and there just has to be like a certain level of like resilience you build up towards certain things. You can't just be coddled over every single right thing that happens.
I mean personally, I'm personally, I'm way more interested in post traumatic growth and you know, yeah PTSD per se, and that's like maybe a new concept for some people, but that's, in my opinion, the direction we should maybe be moving in more so than helping everybody think that they're messed up and they have every right to be messed up. And like you know, when you lead people to that, you're certainly not leading them to answers right or to getting better.
Yeah, it's just like well, okay, yes we can recognize this happened to you, but like now, what what are you going to do with that?
Yeah? Or more importantly, like put the front end in, put the front end work in, right, so that like this is like the left of bang thing for us, like get ahead of it before it happens, because like this is what happens at my job, right, Like it's not an unknown. So I think we need to get better at sort of being ahead of it.
One thing that is really weird about being married and being with you for sixteen years is that I see you every single day and like I can't I don't like ever look at you and say, oh, you look old. You look like you're getting old, right, I mean I don't, I don't eat at all, but I'm just talking about
you here, baby. But I feel but then like I'll look at pictures of the girls, even from when they were babies, and then I say, like, okay, Gabe looks like he's getting older just by looking at pictures you. Your hair was darker and you just like look different. Right. But one thing I definitely have noticed is you have changed so much since I met you. Just even talking about when I met you, it's just like I'm like, I like you so much more now than I did then.
Like I was more like when I met you, I was just more like like that lust thing, you know, just like very like attracted to you and stuff but now it's just like you're just I just love you so much, like as a friend and as a person more because you're just like so much more of a decent human being than you were when I met you.
But yeah, I just so. One of my questions is from you know, twenty four year old Gabe that started the fire department in nineteen ninety nine to almost forty nine, I say, almost fifty year old Gabe, is you know
you're you've been you're almost ready. I mean technically you're eligible to retire really Soonmber, So what how what have how have you changed in the fire department, Because I don't know how much you really want to speak about that, like what you used to do and what you people thought of you, and how much you've progressed over the past twenty five years. You know.
It's it's it's funny because every so often, like somebody who who I work with daily will hear a story about me or something from somebody from like twenty years ago, right, But like the thing I take from that is that that person doesn't know who I am to this day, right, Like they don't they don't we don't talk often. They don't know what work I've put in or how much I've changed or grown so so like to them, I'm very much still you know, the guy from two thousand and two, right, and.
You're you're there's no trace of that in you anymore.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't go quite that far. Every so often that will that.
Will well yeah, yeah, when you like, I.
Don't do that much around here, but at work, maybe that comes out a little bit more than it does on the home front. But largely you're accurate, like it's not that's like not a thing anymore because it's like and ever so often I'm like wait, like like bro stop, like that's not you anymore. You don't need to like do that. So even if it's like highly effective in some certain you know, kind of circumstances.
Well, it shines through with how you raise your children sometimes well, the immaturity and the teaching them the burp and like spitballs in the restaurant.
Fun, right, that's fun. Yeah, And at some point hopefully they'll realize that, like they you know, that he's kind of a clown for like letting me carry on like this. But yeah, I feel like I've certainly put the work in and and the biggest I guess the biggest aspect of that holds it like you have to recognize it.
And I'd say, like that's where you obviously would come in, because like if you if you're not being held accountable or like nobody's like having like an honest conversation with you, then you're never even going to realize that like your behavior is not right, like right, like if that's using people or like just like being nonchalant about like relationships,
you know, or whatever it might be. And that's where mentorship comes in, and like kind of kind of like getting what you need from people, and you have to you have to realize that this is a problem or have identified it before you can sort of like seek
out like the appropriate help. Right if you're if you're gonna if you're going to be a better person or the best version of yourself, you know you need examples, right, Like you need people to aspire to be or like people that you can kind of look up to and emulate, and and like that might that might mean like not not having relationships with people that you know are no good for you, or or like not cutting people out of your life, but just kind of like not putting
as much stock or time and energy into right like I can't support people who aren't going to support me, or I can't I can't go and do this anymore because this person is clearly on like you know, a whole other thing of like self destruction, Like this is
not good for me. So you have to recognize when and where, Like I say this at work a lot, Like I go by two things like if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room, and it's like not an insult, but it's just like it's like an intrinsic Like I have to recognize that. And then if everyone in the in the room is an asshole, then then you're the asshole. Like those are two things that I sort of so I look to like think that way all the time, like what is
this relationship going to do for me? Like who am I surrounding myself with? Like where do I want to go? Like like with very deliberate intent, you know, and like as far as growth is concerned, if you're surrounded by people who are only looking to hold you back or like do you know dumb shit for like lack of a better term, then then that's where you're going to
be and like that's what you're going to do. And it's just the you got to make a conscious decision, like you're on a different path and like find who's going to help support that path.
And we talk about all that that all the time too, about how people will say like, well you've changed and and and it's like and we we think that's a compliment, like you should change as you get older.
Isn't that the point like to grow?
Right?
Like so so yeah, like I hear that a ton at my job, and I just you know, well this guy changed that, you know, they're different, they changed, And was like, well it's not bad. Like honestly, you should be willing and able to change your mind or orre to like pivot, you know what I'm saying. Like if you're not, then you're kind of doing it wrong.
Yeah, you're just like you're like al Bundy. We always talk about that, talking about talking about Polkai football, right, just like you just never you just never grow. Yeah, and when you grow, you change, and hopefully the person you're with is also growing and changing and you guys can kind of do it together.
Instead of yeah, yeah, I mean like you feed off of that. You know, I don't want to be talking to you about what I was doing on a skateboard twenty five or thirty years ago, Like like that's cool in all, but like that's not If I'm kind of relying on that conversation, then like that's going to get
old real quick. Like it's sort of like grow and progress and like talk about new things and like see what else is going on out there, and like in the relationship, if you're kind of fostering that and one another, then like the team goes that way, right, and and then your kids sort of emmul like that. Right. So let's talk.
About your dissertation, because it was really awesome. I had to read it like five.
Hundreds I still have to read it at least one more time before I can. Yeah, we have to.
Just just briefly just tell us because I think a lot of people that might want to go to grad school they might not understand. Like like when you when you decided you were doing this doctorate program and you knew what the title of this major was, did you know right away, like, Okay, this is what I'm going to write my dissertation on. Because this is what I want to do.
No, not not at all. And the cool thing about like research or even academics in general is that like there's like this nonlinear or you know, yeah, I go here and then like I meet the wall, and then like I or I learned something that disproves what I was thinking, and then like I have to kind of right and so and I like that, you know, it's one of the things I'd like about doing that kind
of work. So I only recently named it, and loosely it's it's socio cultural human performance, and it's based upon like leadership and professional development for fire officers, fire company officers, and of course it's frame like so I'd be remiss if I didn't say that. Basically, my place that I work has sort of been been the reason for me
to do any of this stuff. Right, I don't. I don't work in Baltimore, I don't work in New York City, I don't work in in Cherry Hill, like I don't, So I can only kind of navigate my academics with the organizational experiences that I have. Right, So, like all my work is about the place I'm in and and trying to seek understanding about about how to help make that better, and in this place, it's just extremely complex.
So I think I had to sit with like a thirty year problem right to try to figure this out. And like along the way, all the stuff you figure out, just like we talk about growth, Like the stuff you figure out or the stuff you read about like just makes you a better person and a more understanding person. And like all these things that I'm working on that have nothing to do with the fire Service make me
extremely better at the fire service, if that makes sense. So, like I was saying this earlier, like the fire science thing I started off with, I just think that's extremely narrow and like, if I want people to be better firefighters, it's like they're not going to stop in the middle of the fire floor and be like, oh, well, this
is the part where the fire tetrahedron comes together. Like it just doesn't work like that, And god forbid they wanted to go on to another career or do something in retirement, Like the fire Service doesn't really assist you in doing that, Like they're very like, no, just stay in these like four walls right here, and you're going to be a better firefighter. And I just don't think that it works like that. I think that the work I did in my dissertation or my or my master's
capstone or whatever just kind of broaden your horizons. And like when you broad in like that, you kind of you'll circle back to the place you're at and sort of identify issues and problems or you know, circumstances or frameworks or whatever it might be that are just you know, broken and or like not effective. And while that will maybe ruin your life, at the end of the day, you can sit with it circumstances or problems and try
to really identify how to fix them right. And like, I don't know that I answered your question because I didn't really speak.
No, you do. And this is something that we talk about all time again a similar thing, because one thing that I remember, especially when I was working in the gross room a lot and stuff, was that just you know, working with a bunch of doctors and they just think, you know, oh, you've seen one thing, you see it all, and you you knew every You have some degree, and you and you read some books, and now all of a sudden, like that's all you have to do in life,
and and and the Fire Service is kind of opposite that it's like not as strong academic. Oh, I've been to this many fires and I know everything. And like the perfect job ever, whether it's being a firefighter, whether it's being a PA or nurse anything in the world, is that you have book smarts and then you have job smarts, and it's this it's this beautiful marriage of of like how everything should be in the world would
be a better place. We always say that, right, So I think you did, you answered it.
That's I think. I mean, my my whole goal at my job is to sort of like be filthy and and like that's a term from baseball I've learned from like pictures got filthy stuff today, Like I think I have a lot of tactical street experience, right, but like I also want to marry that with academics and like like time spent in the box trying to solve a problem.
Right.
So yeah, that's that's what's been highly effective for me personally, at least I feel like it's been effective, and I hope other people would too. But yeah, I want to be filthy, Like I want to be the equal parts of like street smart and tactical skill sets and like deep thought and you know, the marrying of blue collar and white collar.
Yeah, I mean, it's it's just the only way to be because you can't, you know. And that is something that because we we grew up super super blue collar, like we barely know anybody that went to school.
Yeah, and I mean in our neighborhoods, I don't want to act like I'm not right, like I think we're still very hard working blue collar folks.
Yeah.
So I would never want to like act like that's improper or not good.
Oh yeah, and we I mean I think that I learned so many skills from my dad just being and that makes me a good PA on the job, right, even though I already had the academics to back it up. You know. It's like because trust me, I worked with plenty of doctors who did not know how to use any kind of street smarts to figure anything out.
Yeah, I mean it's not it's not like I'm sure we both know plenty of people with advanced degrees who are just you know, yeah we do, you know, so so like I would never even think, and you know, in the fire service, unfortunately, there's like that whole negative connotation to like you know, college boy or whatever, like like like Jaws, like Hooper, right, like Quin and Hooper. But but it doesn't have to be that way. Like
learning is cool. Getting smarter can help you be more effective on the street, and like if you're like mission oriented, then that's what matters to at least when we're talking about like the fire service. That's that's all I really can relate to. Your thing is probably not much different in that you see people with advanced degrees and like they're just like very kind of like shut off to to like what you look like or your approach to things or.
Yeah, and they just think they don't have to work a.
Degree higher than you or whatever it might be. It's you know, it's kind of unfortunate, but like it when you do find the people that are rare and they're a little bit of each I think that they're the ones who are filthy at their chosen profession.
I agree. Well, I think that we've let the people listening hear a lot about the inside of what we this is.
Yeah, I mean I was a little surprised that I was requested, to be quite honest, you told me that I was like really like people on her thing give any shit about what I'm doing or what I'm talking about, Like, that's kind of news to me.
I don't think so. I think you're I think a lot of you know, you did podcast with Jason on Leadership under Fire. You've been on a couple of different.
Podcasts, and we'll hopefully have another one of those coming up by the end of the summer. Yeah.
And I think a lot of people have listened to it and they just want to hear what you're doing. And I'm always saying, how awesome what you're doing is. So yeah, I'm like prob mama over here. But this is like a typical date night conversation Gabe and I would have.
Yeah, it's the only thing missing is the Ethiopian.
Shoes, the Ethiopian food and others. We're done, all right, We're done, all right. Well, thanks so much for being here, Vavi, you're the best.
Appreciate all of you too.
Thanks for having me, Thank you for listening to Mother and Death. As a reminder, my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or
alive without the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based on my experience working in pathology, so they can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge of those subjects at the time of publication.
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