04: The Year of Livewire

[Ian Landsman]: Hello? [Aaron]: Welcome back. We're gonna start right away. I got a bone to pick with you, Ian. [Ian Landsman]: Oh baby, [Aaron]: Yeah, welcome home from vacation. [Ian Landsman]: I love some [Aaron]: You said [Ian Landsman]: controversy. [Aaron]: on Twitter that Taylor Swift is the greatest business person of her generation,

[Aaron]: as if Taylor Swift and I weren't born in 1989, the same year. So here's the issue. [Aaron]: If we're judging by money or [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: sold out stadiums or... Cultural Impact or [Ian Landsman]: Sure. [Aaron]: Platinum Albums? Sure, fine, she's the best. If we're judging by maintained and [Aaron]: half maintained GitHub repos, I'm on the list. I [Ian Landsman]: You're out [Aaron]: gotta [Ian Landsman]: there. [Aaron]: be above her, right?

[Ian Landsman]: You have to be right? I think [Aaron]: Okay, [Ian Landsman]: so. I [Aaron]: so [Ian Landsman]: can't imagine [Aaron]: I guess my point [Ian Landsman]: her. [Aaron]: is, what are we judging on is the question. [Ian Landsman]: I can't imagine her GitHub repo game is as strong as yours, right? Like [Aaron]: I appreciate [Ian Landsman]: I just can't. [Aaron]: that. [Ian Landsman]: I just can't. [Aaron]: I was just looking for a little, like, a little nuance to the conversation.

[Ian Landsman]: Oh man, yeah, I know it's, uh, she's so good. I don't know, but yeah. [Aaron]: So she's now selling, she's now outselling like Avengers in pre, what is it? She's doing [Aaron]: a concert movie that she's pre-selling? [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so she's had like the biggest concert series ever over this past

[Ian Landsman]: year. And it actually continues into next year. But, uh, you know, tickets [Ian Landsman]: are, I don't know, a friend of mine, uh, just bought tickets for like $3,000 [Ian Landsman]: a ticket for next November. So, I mean, it's [Aaron]: Oh [Ian Landsman]: insane. [Aaron]: my gosh. [Ian Landsman]: Um, and so she's been on this tour. and she's been recording, you know, obviously [Ian Landsman]: she's recording videos of herself. I think [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: all artists do this, like they record the audio and the video, whatever, just [Ian Landsman]: in case they ever wanna use it for something. But she's obviously got more [Ian Landsman]: of a plan than that, and she's releasing it in the movie theaters. So you [Ian Landsman]: can go see it in this break of the tour over the winter, she's not [Aaron]: Amazing. [Ian Landsman]: performing till next spring, she's gonna have the movie, so people who can't

[Ian Landsman]: spend $3,000 can go see it in the movie theater 20 bucks or whatever. So [Ian Landsman]: I of course got tickets to go see [Aaron]: Of [Ian Landsman]: it [Aaron]: course, [Ian Landsman]: in IMAX. [Aaron]: yeah! [Ian Landsman]: You know, I need a seven story Taylor Swift [Aaron]: Of course. [Ian Landsman]: and yeah, I'm pretty excited about [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: My wife and several of our friends went to the tour and they [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: resurrected the group chat and were like, all right, when are we buying tickets [Aaron]: to go see the movie? It's like, yeah, of course [Ian Landsman]: You [Aaron]: they're [Ian Landsman]: gotta [Aaron]: going to go [Ian Landsman]: see [Aaron]: see [Ian Landsman]: it. Yeah. All the [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: angles [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: you can see. [Aaron]: I think I saw AMC movie theaters said that they were like beefing up their infrastructure

[Aaron]: so that they could start doing the presale. and somebody was like talking about [Aaron]: how Taylor Swift is an ops queen because she's making all of these companies [Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe [Aaron]: increase their ops so that they can handle the rush. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, and that's what you were saying, is that AMC broke all kinds of records [Ian Landsman]: for presales [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: and things. And yeah, so I mean, she's just gonna print all the money. It's

[Ian Landsman]: like, she's totally ready, right? She's had a plan. Like, I didn't even consider [Ian Landsman]: this. I don't think [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: many people even thought about it. I don't think anybody knew about it. And [Ian Landsman]: she just comes out of the blue, obviously well planned, not actually out of [Ian Landsman]: the blue. And it's like, boom, oh, tour's ended for this year. Here it is [Ian Landsman]: in the movie theater. Everybody [Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: can go. And... [Aaron]: And super smart that she didn't cannibalize her own tour sales, because [Ian Landsman]: Yes, [Aaron]: it wasn't like, there [Ian Landsman]: wait [Aaron]: will be [Ian Landsman]: on that. [Aaron]: a movie, you don't have to come. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: Nope. [Ian Landsman]: nope. She's and then while the iron's hot, right, while [Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: everybody's talking about it and it's a huge cultural moment, it's like,

[Ian Landsman]: boom, nope, it keeps going. We're not stopping the train. Here's here's [Ian Landsman]: the movie version. And obviously, [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: then there'll be the home version and blah, blah. And yeah, so I mean, it's just [Ian Landsman]: going to lead [Aaron]: Okay, [Ian Landsman]: into [Aaron]: I will allow [Ian Landsman]: next year. [Aaron]: it. I will allow her to edge me out for business person of the year 1989. That [Aaron]: sounds fine to me.

[Ian Landsman]: What an honor that you were born in the same [Aaron]: Right? [Ian Landsman]: year as Taylor Swift. [Aaron]: I know. [Ian Landsman]: That's, that's amazing. I wish [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: I could [Aaron]: know. [Ian Landsman]: say that. Unbelievable. [Aaron]: I know. It's really it's an honor and it's also like, oh, dang, we're the same age. [Aaron]: Shoot, that sucks. [Ian Landsman]: She's a little ahead.

[Aaron]: Yeah. We're playing a different game, [Ian Landsman]: Money [Aaron]: that's [Ian Landsman]: wise, [Aaron]: all. We're, yeah, [Ian Landsman]: yeah, different [Aaron]: money-wise, [Ian Landsman]: game. [Aaron]: not open source repo-wise. [Ian Landsman]: You know, if you listen to her songs, you know, she has not done so well in [Ian Landsman]: the love department. And I think you're ahead in the love [Aaron]: That [Ian Landsman]: department [Aaron]: is true.

[Ian Landsman]: and the kid department and all the, that end of the world, you're in the lead. [Aaron]: That is [Ian Landsman]: You're [Aaron]: true, that is [Ian Landsman]: just [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: behind [Aaron]: very good [Ian Landsman]: on the [Aaron]: point. [Ian Landsman]: money, but you're working on that. [Aaron]: But [Ian Landsman]: We [Aaron]: we'll [Ian Landsman]: got [Aaron]: get [Ian Landsman]: you there. [Aaron]: there, yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: We'll get there, y'all come to my movie. Okay, so you're back. [Ian Landsman]: I'm back and you're back. This [Aaron]: We're all [Ian Landsman]: is the [Aaron]: back. [Ian Landsman]: first episode that we're in [Aaron]: Uh-huh. [Ian Landsman]: our, both in home turf. So [Aaron]: That's right. [Ian Landsman]: this is exciting. [Aaron]: How was the [Ian Landsman]: Proper [Aaron]: return [Ian Landsman]: cameras. [Aaron]: home?

[Ian Landsman]: Good. We also had a long, you know, you were on a long trip. This

[Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: is like the longest trip, like road trip, I think we've really ever taken [Ian Landsman]: down to the Outer Banks. So that was a bit of a haul, but the kids are [Ian Landsman]: big now. So it wasn't too bad, not too much fighting and crying and stuff [Ian Landsman]: like that. Everybody's... [Aaron]: That's good. [Ian Landsman]: humanoid now, which is awesome.

[Aaron]: Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Ian Landsman]: And so, uh, yeah. So we actually stopped in DC both ways to, uh, just like break [Ian Landsman]: up the trip to avoid the 11 or 12 hours straight through. Um, and [Aaron]: Did [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: y'all do [Ian Landsman]: worked [Aaron]: any [Ian Landsman]: out nice. [Aaron]: like sightseeing or was it just overnight?

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. The first, the way down, we did do say singing. We've been there a few [Ian Landsman]: times before, but, um, you know, kind of walked the national mall, [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: I love the Lincoln Memorial. It's my favorite. So hit up Lincoln. Um, did [Ian Landsman]: that kind of area. And then I know we went out to dinner, whatnot. And

[Ian Landsman]: then way back, we were gonna go to the postal museum. We didn't even realize [Ian Landsman]: there was a postal [Aaron]: Oh. [Ian Landsman]: museum. We were like, oh, postal museum. But anyway, it didn't happen. [Aaron]: What is that? [Ian Landsman]: We got [Aaron]: Just [Ian Landsman]: there [Aaron]: a bunch [Ian Landsman]: too [Aaron]: of [Ian Landsman]: late. [Aaron]: letters? Or what do [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: they have [Ian Landsman]: this [Aaron]: there?

[Ian Landsman]: is what the kids theory was. Like it's just stamps. [Aaron]: That's just [Ian Landsman]: Not [Aaron]: lost [Ian Landsman]: going to see [Aaron]: mail. [Ian Landsman]: just stamps. Yeah, it's all lost mail. So I don't know what's there because [Ian Landsman]: I didn't get to it because we got [Aaron]: Oh, well. [Ian Landsman]: going kind of late and then it wasn't gonna work out. So everybody was

[Ian Landsman]: exhausted. But we just went into the hotel. I played poker because there [Ian Landsman]: was a [Aaron]: Did [Ian Landsman]: reasonable [Aaron]: you win? [Ian Landsman]: casino there. I lost a few hundred dollars, so not too [Aaron]: Ah! [Ian Landsman]: bad. But I did play like a super long session and it was a good game. Like there [Ian Landsman]: was, it was a great game actually, but I just couldn't find the right spots.

[Aaron]: If I know anything about gambling and I don't, the strategy is you should chase your [Aaron]: losses. I think that's what you're supposed [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: to do. [Ian Landsman]: Ha ha [Aaron]: Like [Ian Landsman]: ha. [Aaron]: if you're down, you just keep playing and eventually it turns around. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so I mean, this is sort of the level, it was like a five, 10 for those

[Ian Landsman]: of you who play poker. So $300 loss is actually like almost kind of even, [Ian Landsman]: which is fine. [Aaron]: Yeah, 510, that feels like a lot. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: Feels like [Ian Landsman]: that's [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: a [Aaron]: big [Ian Landsman]: bigger [Aaron]: game. [Ian Landsman]: game than I normally play, yeah. So, [Aaron]: Jeez. [Ian Landsman]: but you know, when I have these opportunities to play bigger games, I like

[Ian Landsman]: to take it because like where I play locally never has that. So, [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: that was good. But we went to Topgolf. That's the thing we did that [Aaron]: Oh [Ian Landsman]: night. [Aaron]: nice. [Ian Landsman]: We went to Topgolf, which that was another first. So we did the Waffle House, [Ian Landsman]: first time at Waffle House, first [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: time at Topgolf. And that was a lot of fun. Food was better than I expected.

[Ian Landsman]: And whatever, just get out there and smack the golf ball around a bit. [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: So that was cool. [Aaron]: it's fun. It's fun that they bring the food and drink out to you. And [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, just gonna hang [Aaron]: it's [Ian Landsman]: out. [Aaron]: like, you know, it's bar food, but it's so fun. I don't even [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: golf, but it's a lot [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: of fun.

[Ian Landsman]: I don't love golf either. My middle kid is kind of in this. I don't know. [Ian Landsman]: He's picked up golf in the last month and he's kind of super in the zone on [Ian Landsman]: it. So [Aaron]: That's fun. [Ian Landsman]: he was all jazzed and, um, yeah, it was good. That was good. So, but good to [Ian Landsman]: be back. I have like [Aaron]: Good. [Ian Landsman]: 8 million things to do. [Aaron]: Yeah, that's what I was gonna [Ian Landsman]: Um,

[Aaron]: ask. How's the return [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: to [Ian Landsman]: So. [Aaron]: the office life for you? [Ian Landsman]: Man, it's been a crazy morning [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: already. This is the first day back. It's absolutely bananas. We're doing [Ian Landsman]: this like, for HelpSpot, we're rolling out this new store. So HelpSpot has, [Ian Landsman]: it's not like a regular SaaS app or in the app you do things. It's got this

[Ian Landsman]: whole store set up that's separate from the app. Because we, partially because [Ian Landsman]: it's ancient and so that's [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: like how you did things in the old days when you had on-premise apps, but [Ian Landsman]: also. We do a lot of other stuff that isn't even that easy to do with Stripe, [Ian Landsman]: even still like invoicing, [Aaron]: Mmm.

[Ian Landsman]: I know they do invoicing, but we handle all kinds of different types of payment [Ian Landsman]: and you can send us a [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: check and whatever, blah, blah. So we have our own thing for that. And so that's [Ian Landsman]: a new version that's rolling out today. And in the middle [Aaron]: today. [Ian Landsman]: of that. Yeah. So they're working on that. The guys are cranking away on that.

[Ian Landsman]: And then, uh, I come back to like other, other decisions I made before I [Ian Landsman]: left that I don't love, so I'm fixing those decisions and then, [Aaron]: Ah, [Ian Landsman]: um, [Aaron]: yes. [Ian Landsman]: And then, uh, and then in the middle of all that, I got one of these emails [Ian Landsman]: where like, so I've had IanLansman.com for whatever, 20 something years, right?

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: And one of these Reuters images, you know, copyright royalty [Aaron]: Mm. [Ian Landsman]: services, uh, has hunted me down and found an image I used in 2005. [Aaron]: Hmm. [Ian Landsman]: on a blog post and they want, you know, $2,000. So [Aaron]: What? [Ian Landsman]: now I gotta go through all that headache. So I like took [Aaron]: What? [Ian Landsman]: that down. But of course, like my site is built on like an ancient version

[Ian Landsman]: of Jigsaw. So even just taking down [Aaron]: Oh [Ian Landsman]: the page [Aaron]: yeah. [Ian Landsman]: was like, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: I had to like update the whole thing and like whatever. So I got that done, [Ian Landsman]: got [Aaron]: Wait, [Ian Landsman]: the page [Aaron]: so [Ian Landsman]: taken down. [Aaron]: somebody tracked you down for... What is it? I guess a copyright violation?

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, like I embedded a Reuters image in a blog post in 2005. Um, probably [Ian Landsman]: just, yeah, not obviously intentionally, uh, from somewhere else [Aaron]: Yeah, it [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: was 2005, [Ian Landsman]: presumably. [Aaron]: it was run and gun, baby. [Ian Landsman]: I know. So they have these services. You know, this is just the way they're making

[Ian Landsman]: who knows. I'm sure they make millions of dollars a quarter on juicing their [Ian Landsman]: numbers by hunting down random blog posts and sending threatening letters. [Ian Landsman]: So. [Aaron]: So are you free and clear now? Are you just gonna ignore it?

[Ian Landsman]: I mean, it just happened this morning. I took it down. You are absolutely [Ian Landsman]: not free and clear when [Aaron]: This [Ian Landsman]: you take [Aaron]: is [Ian Landsman]: it [Aaron]: legal [Ian Landsman]: down. [Aaron]: advice, so yeah, if you're paying attention, we're both attorneys for sure. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so I think, you know, whatever. It's one of these games, right? Where [Ian Landsman]: like, I'm always gonna push back on them. Hopefully they cut it down a

[Ian Landsman]: little bit. Do I think? I could win in court. Like, I mean, I don't know, probably [Ian Landsman]: not, to be honest with you, because like, [Aaron]: Hmm. [Ian Landsman]: I use this image, it was there. [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Um, you know, obviously when it's a thousand dollars or let's say we get [Ian Landsman]: down to like a thousand dollars, like, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: can I hire a lawyer and fight them for a thousand dollars? Do I want to like

[Ian Landsman]: go through? Right. So it's this whole thing. The main thing I was worried about [Ian Landsman]: is, is it even real? So [Aaron]: Right. [Ian Landsman]: I went through all that. It does seem to be real. So I don't know. It's [Ian Landsman]: like this game where [Aaron]: She [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: is. [Ian Landsman]: not enough money to fight it. So [Aaron]: Right?

[Ian Landsman]: you're just kinda stuck paying the ransom for this ridiculous blog post that [Ian Landsman]: nobody's ever seen. [Aaron]: Right. [Ian Landsman]: And even when it was new in 2005, 50 people saw it. Whatever. So I went [Ian Landsman]: through every other image that's up there in my [Aaron]: Oh gosh. [Ian Landsman]: ancient history of blogs, uh, and made sure there was nothing else to lead

[Ian Landsman]: a few things that whatever I knew they weren't my images. Uh, I don't think [Ian Landsman]: they didn't seem good enough to be Reuters images, [Aaron]: I'm sorry. [Ian Landsman]: but whatever they were just whatever delete them. So anyway, so that's [Aaron]: Wow, [Ian Landsman]: been my [Aaron]: welcome [Ian Landsman]: crazy [Aaron]: home, [Ian Landsman]: return [Aaron]: that sucks.

[Ian Landsman]: to work. Exactly. So [Aaron]: Now [Ian Landsman]: how's [Aaron]: I'm thinking [Ian Landsman]: things with you? [Aaron]: we should start a business that exploits those images and [Ian Landsman]: Ha ha. [Aaron]: emails and demands payment. That sounds pretty awesome. [Ian Landsman]: This is exactly what my wife said. She's like, we needed one of these gigs. [Ian Landsman]: I'm like, [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: yeah. Or what about we take the white hat version of that, a service that [Ian Landsman]: checks your websites and says, hey, [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: some of these images look a little iffy. You might want to clean this up [Ian Landsman]: before these bad guys get ahold [Aaron]: before [Ian Landsman]: of you. [Aaron]: we sell [Ian Landsman]: So, [Aaron]: the lead to the bad guys who are [Ian Landsman]: right. [Aaron]: gonna sue you. [Ian Landsman]: Right, exactly.

[Aaron]: I think that's like a protection racket. So

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: I love [Aaron]: probably [Ian Landsman]: a good gangster, [Aaron]: no good there. Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: gangster thing. You know, I'm big [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: on the gangsters. [Aaron]: yeah. Things are good over here. We tried to do potty training for the kids over [Aaron]: the weekend. Just total epic disaster. Just [Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha. [Aaron]: not even close to working. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: Um, so we didn't, uh, let's see, we didn't fail. We're just going to try again [Aaron]: later. We, we put, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: we put a hold on it and said, okay, this isn't, this isn't working. They are a [Aaron]: little young to be fair. And [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: so we're just going to try again later. But boy, that was the worst. That was not great. [Aaron]: That was super not great. [Ian Landsman]: Do they have an interest yet or they're not really interested?

[Aaron]: Um, they're not really interested. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: I'll be honest. [Ian Landsman]: I think [Aaron]: They're [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: just [Ian Landsman]: hard [Aaron]: interested [Ian Landsman]: until [Aaron]: in [Ian Landsman]: they're [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: interested. [Aaron]: peeing on the floor. [Ian Landsman]: Right, [Aaron]: And it's like, [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: okay, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: this is gross. Yeah, not a huge fan of that. I'll be honest. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, until they get the interest, until they're showing interest in like the [Ian Landsman]: toilet and stuff, I feel [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: like it's kind of, it's gonna be rough there. [Aaron]: Yeah, so back to diapers and everybody's happy. Kids are at school today and so [Ian Landsman]: Woohoo!

[Aaron]: my wife is feeling very light and free. So [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: always good. [Aaron]: much, much better. Yeah, and then yesterday was Labor Day and I did a little, I had a little [Aaron]: fun me time and just redesigned my site a little bit. Actually, that's totally [Aaron]: not fair. Hugo, the designer at Tupel. redesigned my personal site and then Jason [Ian Landsman]: Nice. [Aaron]: Beggs, a good guy Jason, built [Ian Landsman]: Go.

[Aaron]: out a lot of it. And then you know when you get a design done and then you start [Aaron]: to put the real content in and you're like, Oh man, I didn't tell the designer about [Aaron]: this part [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: and they couldn't have known and so I'm gonna, I am going to tweak it which usually [Aaron]: means like destroy the design.

[Ian Landsman]: Sir. [Aaron]: But that's what I've spent a few hours doing was like playing around with how am I [Aaron]: gonna fit this content into this design and It was fun, you know, tailwind, still pretty [Aaron]: great, still [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: love [Ian Landsman]: awesome. [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: It's the goat. [Aaron]: I used some of those wild like descendant selectors, very, [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: very cool, lot of fun. So [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: yeah, a good distraction after a weekend filled with very few wins, I will say. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, those potty training days, those are rough. Those are just brutal. It's [Ian Landsman]: just brutal. Especially I can't imagine two at once. Forget even just one is [Ian Landsman]: a disaster. Two is [Aaron]: Yep, [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: it scales linearly, I think. [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: It was a double [Ian Landsman]: Linear [Aaron]: disaster, [Ian Landsman]: is good.

[Aaron]: yeah, for [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: sure. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. You might have to do one at a time just because they're twins doesn't [Ian Landsman]: mean you have to do them both at the same [Aaron]: I know. [Ian Landsman]: time too. So you could [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: whichever one takes an interest that might help get the other one interested [Ian Landsman]: once the one's doing it. You know, then [Aaron]: Yeah, that's [Ian Landsman]: kind [Aaron]: true. [Ian Landsman]: of kind of go [Aaron]: That's [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: route [Aaron]: good point. [Ian Landsman]: with it. Yeah. Man, how's the I've seen some people talking about screencasting.com [Ian Landsman]: videos [Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: as if they've seen them But then [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: I checked and it wasn't launched. So I don't know if you have some people like [Aaron]: I got [Ian Landsman]: in [Aaron]: some [Ian Landsman]: there [Aaron]: people [Ian Landsman]: testing [Aaron]: on the mailing [Ian Landsman]: it out [Aaron]: list, man. So [Ian Landsman]: Okay [Aaron]: I'm trying to do the whole like, hey, sign up for the mailing list, I'll send you [Aaron]: stuff. Sign [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: up for the mailing list, I'll send you stuff. And it's working. [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: And so I've sent out a preview of maybe like three or four of the lessons. And then [Aaron]: I've started to do, I started to solicit videos from other people. Be like, send me [Aaron]: your video, I'll do a video review of your video. [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: And I've sent out a few of those like, I actually have sent out one of those teardowns

[Aaron]: and I have another one going out to the list today. And so it's kind of like, you [Aaron]: know, the incentive to sign up for the list is you'll get some content early and [Aaron]: then [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: hopefully when launch time comes, the list will be, you know, bigger enough to make [Aaron]: a difference. So yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: What are you looking at for launch? When, when are you thinking that's [Ian Landsman]: going [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: to [Aaron]: think, [Ian Landsman]: happen? [Aaron]: yeah, I think so today we're recording is September 5th. I think it's going to be [Aaron]: September, what is it? 20th maybe? Whatever the Wednesday of that week [Ian Landsman]: Okay,

[Aaron]: is. I think it's [Ian Landsman]: oh, [Aaron]: like two and [Ian Landsman]: pretty [Aaron]: a half [Ian Landsman]: close. [Aaron]: weeks away. Yeah, very [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: close. Um, so a lot of good, a lot of good stuff happening there. I've also started [Aaron]: to reach out to people to do, um, like a screencaster spotlights. And [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: so we got one in already, uh, Mateus who's a, you know, friend of Laravel.

[Ian Landsman]: Yep. [Aaron]: I reached out to him and I was like, hey man, I would love for you to do a video [Aaron]: on like, hey, I'm Matthias, this is what I do, here's kind of my setup, this is [Aaron]: my camera, my microphone, here's what I like, here's what I don't like. So do like [Aaron]: a short, you know, three to five minute video on that [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: and then on the page have it listed below of like, here's all the gear that Matthias [Aaron]: uses, here are the links where you can find [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: Matthias' stuff. That way, you know, it's a fun, like it's a fun... way for people [Aaron]: to see what other people are doing. [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: If they start to look around at different cameras and microphones, they can look at some [Aaron]: of these other screencasters and be like, oh, this guy uses the camera I was thinking [Aaron]: about using, let me watch his video or something like that. And I think it'll be [Aaron]: good like social, drive social behavior, right? Because then [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Ahem. [Aaron]: every screencaster that we spotlight is gonna wanna send people over there and be

[Aaron]: like, hey. look at this thing I have on Screencasting.com that has like a backlink [Aaron]: to my, you know, to my screencasting stuff. And so trying to round out some of the [Aaron]: content there to make the site a little bit heavier for SEO and social stuff. [Ian Landsman]: And everybody loves gear posts. Like gear posts, [Aaron]: Loves [Ian Landsman]: just [Aaron]: it, yes. [Ian Landsman]: classic win. Like you're just gonna have people wandering through there just

[Ian Landsman]: cause why not? I just love seeing what gear people are using and what they're [Ian Landsman]: doing with it and everything. So that's a definite win there. Yeah, and the [Ian Landsman]: things to work together, definitely useful to just like, yeah, which camera maybe [Ian Landsman]: I already have a piece of something. Like maybe [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: I can see like, well, what are people pairing with this and how's that going

[Ian Landsman]: and everything. So yeah, I liked that a lot, especially with like, if they have [Ian Landsman]: something a little bit to write up about. how they like it or just like, is [Ian Landsman]: there a trick? Like, oh, you need to do this or the microphone [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: setup should be that, especially with the mic stuff tends to be a lot of [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: things like that. Or specific cameras having like whatever the good settings [Ian Landsman]: for streaming or even video setup sometimes, since they're usually kind [Ian Landsman]: of more photography focused by default in their default settings. Sometimes [Ian Landsman]: you have a few tweaks there you need to do to get it set up for the video. [Ian Landsman]: So. I like that. [Aaron]: Yep, yep, and I think we'll end up with a page that's like screencasting.com slash

[Aaron]: cameras. And it'll [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: be a whole listing of like the different camera options and then in each section for [Aaron]: like the Canon M50, which is what I'm running. Then [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: we can have links out to all the profiles of people that use the Canon M50. And then [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: we can have like a full super heavy in terms of content page for screencasting

[Aaron]: cameras. And I think... Given the domain and the fact that we can put a ton of content [Aaron]: on there, I think we'll rank pretty highly for screencasting cameras. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, especially the camera, I think, or even the mics too. I mean, I think

[Ian Landsman]: if you had a page for each of the big camera systems and mic systems. And [Ian Landsman]: then even just whether it's you or something, you know, pay somebody to [Ian Landsman]: go through and do the work of like, either building these or even just finding [Ian Landsman]: the good videos about on YouTube, about how to set them up. Because like [Aaron]: Hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: when I was setting up for this new setup I have here, it's like, it took me [Ian Landsman]: like four YouTube videos and like [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: three hours for this particular camera, which like Sony A7C. And [Aaron]: Mm. [Ian Landsman]: so like this, and this is actually a really good camera potentially for streaming,

[Ian Landsman]: like. It's a video oriented camera to some degree anyway, but it's like [Ian Landsman]: even that didn't have like here is how you would set this camera up for streaming [Ian Landsman]: and the things you [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: should do. And like, so I think just having that for, you know, because basically [Ian Landsman]: if you do the Sony's and the cannons, you don't have to do every [Aaron]: Right.

[Ian Landsman]: single one even. But the big ones, a lot of them are same across anyway, [Ian Landsman]: it's like, you know, the menuing [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: system and everything's the same across multiple cameras in the series. [Ian Landsman]: So I think that'd be super useful. And you get a lot of links for that because [Ian Landsman]: it's actually pretty hard to find that. there [Aaron]: Pretty [Ian Landsman]: tends to [Aaron]: hard [Ian Landsman]: be you're

[Aaron]: to find. So [Ian Landsman]: kind of piecing [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: it. [Aaron]: just went through this. So like what part was hard for you to find? Was it concise [Aaron]: or comprehensive or what was [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: the part [Ian Landsman]: because [Aaron]: that was missing?

[Ian Landsman]: you end up take there's there was like nobody as I found anyway, at least [Ian Landsman]: for this particular camera that really went through and like how to set it [Ian Landsman]: up, especially for the streaming, which [Aaron]: Got [Ian Landsman]: might be a little [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: different than what you're doing. But even for the video, there was just a lot

[Ian Landsman]: of like, here's some of the settings. But then I knew other stuff. I mean, [Ian Landsman]: I know a little bit about it, which helped if I [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: started from less knowledge. I think it would have been even worse. But. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, just, and just even things like how do you run the power to it? Like, [Ian Landsman]: can you, should [Aaron]: Hmm [Ian Landsman]: you do HDMI out or a lot of the cameras have USB-C, which can pipe over

[Ian Landsman]: it, but there's actually a difference. and HDMI is probably better, but not necessarily [Ian Landsman]: always. And so there's [Aaron]: Hmm. [Ian Landsman]: kind of things like that in terms of the setup, physical setup of how you're [Ian Landsman]: gonna power it and how you're gonna get [Aaron]: That's [Ian Landsman]: the [Aaron]: interesting. [Ian Landsman]: feed out. [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: And then also then the Sony system, all these camera systems, the menu

[Ian Landsman]: is a disaster. So, you know, how do you find all the little spots where [Ian Landsman]: you need to set it up for, whether it's changes for the continuous power or changes [Ian Landsman]: for like what setting that should be on for video and all [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: great [Ian Landsman]: stuff. [Aaron]: idea. [Ian Landsman]: So just to get that initial setup so you have something reasonable. [Aaron]: Right.

[Ian Landsman]: And you're not, you know, some of them have overheating issues. Is there [Aaron]: Right. [Ian Landsman]: certain things you have to do? Maybe you shouldn't run it at 1080P or whatever, [Ian Landsman]: like whatever, all the different things to be aware of for the particular camera.

[Ian Landsman]: So you, you know, your first run experiences, aren't you get 20 minutes [Ian Landsman]: in and it's shutting down and, [Aaron]: Right, in [Ian Landsman]: or [Aaron]: the middle [Ian Landsman]: you're [Aaron]: of [Ian Landsman]: not [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: getting the video [Aaron]: recording session, [Ian Landsman]: or whatever. [Aaron]: which is super [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: frustrating. [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Ooh, [Ian Landsman]: So [Aaron]: this is [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: could [Aaron]: good [Ian Landsman]: be cool. [Aaron]: idea. This is a really good idea. I think, so one of the things I'm thinking for [Aaron]: like, continually filling the top of the funnel, because I want this [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: course to last forever, you know, [Ian Landsman]: Right, yeah, [Aaron]: as [Ian Landsman]: why not? [Aaron]: forever as possible.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I'm thinking I'll do a separate YouTube channel that is just screencasting [Ian Landsman]: Hmm [Aaron]: focused. [Ian Landsman]: that makes sense [Aaron]: And... This could be a really good couple of videos where I synthesize all of [Aaron]: the information about, because people are trying to teach you how to use the camera [Aaron]: for everything, [Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: and I could synthesize all of that into, here's how you use it just for a webcam [Aaron]: or a screencast [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: basically. [Ian Landsman]: Yup. [Aaron]: That is really interesting, I like that idea. The question is, am I gonna have [Aaron]: to buy a bunch of cameras to do it honestly, because I don't wanna do that. [Ian Landsman]: Well, I [Aaron]: Hmm [Ian Landsman]: mean, there's a bunch of services for renting cameras. So for like 20 [Aaron]: Duh.

[Ian Landsman]: bucks, 30 bucks or whatever, you can just like rent the camera and the lens [Ian Landsman]: for two days, do the video, send it [Aaron]: Of [Ian Landsman]: back. [Aaron]: course, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: of course [Ian Landsman]: I would just, [Aaron]: Ian, [Ian Landsman]: there [Aaron]: this [Ian Landsman]: you [Aaron]: is [Ian Landsman]: go. [Aaron]: why we do this. [Ian Landsman]: There [Aaron]: We do [Ian Landsman]: you [Aaron]: this [Ian Landsman]: go.

[Aaron]: podcast for my benefit. This is amazing. Okay, yeah, that's obvious. Yep, what is it [Aaron]: called? There's one that's like [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that's a big [Aaron]: Glass [Ian Landsman]: one. [Aaron]: Rent or I'm thinking of Rent the Runway, which is different. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I'll look it up. That's fine. [Ian Landsman]: It [Aaron]: Great [Ian Landsman]: should be [Aaron]: idea, [Ian Landsman]: easy to find. Yeah. [Aaron]: okay.

[Ian Landsman]: I can't remember the names, but I know a ton of people use them. Everybody [Ian Landsman]: seems to have pretty good results [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: with it. So I think that you're getting like pretty, you know, [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: good, good gear and good shape. And it'll be fine for your purposes of getting [Ian Landsman]: set [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: up [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: and [Aaron]: don't [Ian Landsman]: stream [Aaron]: even want [Ian Landsman]: it. [Aaron]: to keep the gear, so it's [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: perfect. So, okay. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. And you only need one lens, probably, or whatever. So. [Aaron]: Yeah. Okay, cool.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: That'll [Ian Landsman]: there [Aaron]: be [Ian Landsman]: you [Aaron]: fun. [Ian Landsman]: go. There's another project for the list. [Aaron]: Yeah, seriously. I count this as a sub project, so mentally this doesn't [Ian Landsman]: Doesn't [Aaron]: take [Ian Landsman]: weigh you [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: down, [Aaron]: slot. Yeah, exactly. [Ian Landsman]: right? Ha ha ha. [Aaron]: I don't feel like, oh man, I got a million. No, I only have like four things to

[Aaron]: juggle, of which subtask A is record a million videos. So. [Ian Landsman]: Right? I have a hard time with that. I get down that path. This is part of [Ian Landsman]: the stuff I've been eliminating from [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: decisions I made pre-vacation, [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: is it's just like I get too much stuff going and I'm not as good at that. [Ian Landsman]: I've never been that good at it. If I get too many balls, then I just start

[Ian Landsman]: to get like, it just weighs on me. And then I don't do even the things [Ian Landsman]: I need to be doing. It's just like, oh, it's too much stress and pressure. [Ian Landsman]: So then I gotta go back through and be like, no, don't actually need to do [Ian Landsman]: those things right now. Like. It'll [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: be fine. We can wait a few months or six months, whatever. Put it on like a separate

[Ian Landsman]: notion page for like kind of backlog of ideas. Just [Aaron]: Parking [Ian Landsman]: send [Aaron]: lot, [Ian Landsman]: it over [Aaron]: yeah. [Ian Landsman]: there. So it's not like in my day to day vision. And then, uh, yeah, [Aaron]: Yep, [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: got it. [Aaron]: are [Ian Landsman]: Got to do [Aaron]: super [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: not alone. I feel the same way. I feel like I have like a natural kind of ebb and

[Aaron]: flow cycle almost of like expand, let's do everything. And then I [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: get to like the maximum expansion and I'm like, oh, [Ian Landsman]: I'm sorry. [Aaron]: this is [Ian Landsman]: Ha [Aaron]: too [Ian Landsman]: ha [Aaron]: much. [Ian Landsman]: ha. [Aaron]: And then I contract down and focus on the few things that I think are most important [Aaron]: maybe or most pressing. And [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: then that kind of just kind of ebbs and flows over time. And I don't know if that's [Aaron]: bad. Like I don't know if that's bad. [Ian Landsman]: I don't know. [Aaron]: I maybe wish I didn't get to the point where it was like, ah, this is way too [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: much, [Ian Landsman]: overwhelming. [Aaron]: I'm gonna die, yeah. Which is [Ian Landsman]: I do think [Aaron]: where I am now, so.

[Ian Landsman]: there is this entrepreneurial, I think a lot of entrepreneurs have that. issue [Ian Landsman]: and it's like you get that little bit of space like you actually get some space [Ian Landsman]: and you're like I must [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: fill this space like I must there's more things to do let's pile stuff [Ian Landsman]: into the gap and then all of a sudden you look around a week later you're [Ian Landsman]: like oh I actually have tons of stuff to do and then the thing you know [Ian Landsman]: you have no capacity for like when someone comes out of the blue and wants [Ian Landsman]: to charge you two thousand dollars for a photo [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: you used 20 years ago or like all these you know random stuff that comes [Ian Landsman]: up when you're running [Ian Landsman]: even just your day job needs you to work longer or whatever, like who knows, [Ian Landsman]: like just having the extra capacity to take on those unknown things. Yeah, I hit [Ian Landsman]: that all the time where I'm like running too close to the capacity and [Ian Landsman]: then like something [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: happens and I'm like, oh no, I got to deal with that and rework [Aaron]: And then you start [Ian Landsman]: things. [Aaron]: actively [Ian Landsman]: So, [Aaron]: trying to like shed projects. You're like, [Ian Landsman]: right, [Aaron]: ah, I can't do that. [Ian Landsman]: right. [Aaron]: I mean, Hugo designed my website, I think back in like September or October of [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: last year, and it's now September [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: of this year. And it was just one of those things where at the time, I was like, [Aaron]: yeah, hell yeah, let's freaking, let's do a website, that seems awesome. And then [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: he designed it and I was like, oh gosh, I don't [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: have time [Ian Landsman]: Now I have [Aaron]: to [Ian Landsman]: to [Aaron]: do [Ian Landsman]: build [Aaron]: this. [Ian Landsman]: this.

[Aaron]: I can't do this anymore. That's one thing where I think I do get in trouble sometimes [Aaron]: is I'll have like, I'll start the project and have [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: like other people, you know, pay them, of course, but have other people [Ian Landsman]: Right. Yup. [Aaron]: do parts of it. And then I'm like, Oh no, now it's back to me. And so, [Ian Landsman]: Yup.

[Aaron]: you know, hopefully, hopefully Hugo's happy one to see his design out there. And [Aaron]: two, of course I did pay him for it. But now I'm finally like, all right, here we [Aaron]: go. This is now it's come back around to I have time to do this. [Ian Landsman]: The number of people and the amount of money I've paid for people to not [Ian Landsman]: do the things I asked them to do is

[Aaron]: Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Ian Landsman]: completely insane. Um, yes, I know I paid you. I'm- I'm fine with you not [Ian Landsman]: doing it, just forget it. Like just the, what you were gonna do and then place [Ian Landsman]: on me. Like I'm fine just paying you to not just take that

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: money, enjoy it. I don't even want you to produce it. And I [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: just want to not worry about it. So yeah, I do have had that happen numerous [Ian Landsman]: times. So. [Aaron]: Yeah, and it's kinda like, if they do produce the thing, it's like, yes, I'm thrilled [Aaron]: to death with the work you've done. It's amazing, I [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: love it. I just, I'm gonna sit on it for a little [Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: while. Sorry about that. Ha, ha, ha. [Ian Landsman]: So [Aaron]: But. [Ian Landsman]: we should get the full update. What's up with the hello query? I don't think [Ian Landsman]: we've even talked about that on [Aaron]: We [Ian Landsman]: this [Aaron]: have [Ian Landsman]: pod [Aaron]: not talked [Ian Landsman]: much, [Aaron]: about [Ian Landsman]: so. [Aaron]: that in a while. So we've been doing a push with, do you know Boris Lepkin in the [Ian Landsman]: Hmm,

[Aaron]: Laravel community? He's the guy who wrote [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: Advanced [Ian Landsman]: don't think so. [Aaron]: Inertia. [Ian Landsman]: Okay, yes, I know that. [Aaron]: So he's the inertia type script. [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: He's a wizard. Like I thought for a long time that I was a really good developer [Aaron]: and I think I am. I'm [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: not as good as Boris. Like [Ian Landsman]: No, right? [Aaron]: Boris is a gosh dang machine.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: And it also happens that he's like really, really good at the front end. Um, [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: and I'm, I'm okay at front end, but in terms of like, all right, let's wire up [Aaron]: inertia and view all together with typed stuff on the backend, like I don't, I [Aaron]: don't hold a candle to Boris. [Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: So anyway, we've hired Boris to help us build out some of that stuff. Um, [Ian Landsman]: Awesome [Aaron]: because like I said, I got to this point where I was like, Oh, this is too much. [Aaron]: Um, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: And we were just moving too slowly because I just, I was also having a hard time. [Aaron]: Like the project's been going on for a thousand years, [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: um, and losing some of that motivation for that side. And so [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm [Aaron]: bringing Boris on to like, just plow through some tasks has been really awesome. [Aaron]: So that's been going well. We're reaching the point where it's like, all right, let's, [Aaron]: let's onboard some customers here. [Ian Landsman]: Oh [Aaron]: And [Ian Landsman]: wow. [Aaron]: so. Yeah, Colleen and I are talking about like, okay, we're about to approach the

[Aaron]: starting line of this project. Like, even [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: though it feels like this should be the finish line, we're approaching the starting [Aaron]: line. Let's talk about like what that's going to look like going forward. [Ian Landsman]: Yo. [Aaron]: And so there's still some, you know, there's still some decisions and stuff to be

[Aaron]: made there. But just having someone else that's really, really talented help me [Aaron]: on the development side has been like a huge boost in terms of like, like emotional [Aaron]: fortitude to [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: have somebody else picking up some of that slack. So that's been great. So thanks, [Aaron]: Boris. Thanks. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: Thanks for being thanks for being a 10x developer. That's amazing. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: I think there's getting to shipping is so important. And like, that's something [Ian Landsman]: I haven't always factored enough in. And actually with a huge new project that [Ian Landsman]: we'll talk about on here eventually. Um, I've been reworking a lot of that so that [Ian Landsman]: to try to get to that shipping part faster, [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: um, and, uh, Yeah. So I think, uh, I think that's super important. Like six, [Ian Landsman]: when you're just on that march of like the [Aaron]: Brutal. [Ian Landsman]: never ending marches, it is very difficult to stay motivated and even [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: to remember what you were trying to do at [Aaron]: Yep, [Ian Landsman]: times and [Aaron]: yep, [Ian Landsman]: things like that. [Aaron]: yep.

[Ian Landsman]: And so I think having that, um, yeah, whether it's help or just reorganizing, [Ian Landsman]: I think there's actually a Jason Cohen has a really, uh, interesting blog post [Ian Landsman]: about this where. kind of indirectly about this, but he was more talking about like [Ian Landsman]: MVPs and how he doesn't like MVPs. [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: But more about the idea than doing something where it's just smaller but [Ian Landsman]: complete so that [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: like even if you then don't add on to whatever or even if it takes longer [Ian Landsman]: than to get to the full vision, it's not that you're shipping this kind of

[Ian Landsman]: junky doesn't even work for the customer tool. It's just that you're shipping [Ian Landsman]: something that is small but that there is a use set and people could love [Ian Landsman]: that small feature set and then you can either build on [Aaron]: iterate [Ian Landsman]: it or [Aaron]: off [Ian Landsman]: not [Aaron]: of [Ian Landsman]: build [Aaron]: that, [Ian Landsman]: on [Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: it, but that different take on it, which I kind of like that idea of it [Ian Landsman]: as well. [Aaron]: Yeah, yeah, and I feel like there is, there is like a big emotional win from having [Aaron]: that in people's hands. So that you can start to get that like, that, you know, [Aaron]: that dopamine from people actually using the thing instead [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: of just sitting quietly alone working on [Ian Landsman]: some [Aaron]: it all the time.

[Ian Landsman]: money changing hands and all that

[Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: stuff. [Aaron]: exactly. [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: So [Ian Landsman]: always. [Aaron]: when you mentioned it in passing, you had a big secret project we're going to talk [Aaron]: about at some point. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, we'll talk about the big secret project [Aaron]: Alright, [Ian Landsman]: at some point. [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: love it. Okay, [Ian Landsman]: we're not there [Aaron]: so [Ian Landsman]: yet.

[Aaron]: y'all stay [Ian Landsman]: We're not [Aaron]: tuned, [Ian Landsman]: there yet. [Aaron]: come back. Come back [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: next week and we'll probably not talk about it then, but keep coming [Ian Landsman]: We're [Aaron]: back [Ian Landsman]: not being [Aaron]: and [Ian Landsman]: next [Aaron]: maybe [Ian Landsman]: week, but [Aaron]: eventually we will [Ian Landsman]: eventually, [Aaron]: talk about it.

[Ian Landsman]: eventually we'll get to it. We're definitely gonna talk about it, but not [Ian Landsman]: yet. [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: We have lots of other stuff to talk about though. [Aaron]: Let's [Ian Landsman]: So [Aaron]: do [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: no worries. What else we got here? So... All right, so what about, well,

[Ian Landsman]: all right, we can talk about this. So I posted about year of Livewire. What [Ian Landsman]: do you think [Aaron]: You [Ian Landsman]: about [Aaron]: did. [Ian Landsman]: that? I think 2024 is the year of Livewire, is the year of filament, is the [Ian Landsman]: year of the Livewire ecosystem. To [Aaron]: Okay, [Ian Landsman]: me, this [Aaron]: so [Ian Landsman]: is gonna be a big Livewire [Aaron]: before [Ian Landsman]: year.

[Aaron]: I tell [Ian Landsman]: All [Aaron]: you any thoughts, tell me [Ian Landsman]: right. [Aaron]: what you were doing and what kind of prompted the Year of Livewire tweet. [Ian Landsman]: Well, I've just been super deep in LiveWire again. Um, so sort of a long story, [Ian Landsman]: but the short version is I plan to do a bunch of stuff with LiveWire three [Ian Landsman]: last year when it was, you [Aaron]: Okay. Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: know, sort of supposed to come out and actually, you know, did some sponsoring [Ian Landsman]: to help do some of that. Whatever. It just took longer as these software projects [Ian Landsman]: do whatever. So it's fun. So that's this is where I kind of then got over [Ian Landsman]: towards into the React and all that, which we've touched on a [Aaron]: Mmm. [Ian Landsman]: little bit here. I was like, well, I never looked at inertia. Never looked

[Ian Landsman]: at React. Let me go off in that direction for a bit. So I went over there, [Ian Landsman]: learned React, played with inertia and all that stuff. So then LiveWire 3 comes [Ian Landsman]: out and. Filament comes out and there's a bunch of other, you know, projects

[Ian Landsman]: all along the ecosystem. The Spatty stuff's all being updated to LiveWire [Ian Landsman]: 3. I know the Laravel Core stuff that uses LiveWire has been updated or will [Ian Landsman]: be updated [Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: soon. So I've been back in LiveWire 3 streets. I'm like, all right, let me get [Ian Landsman]: in here since this was kind of my original plan. And we use LiveWire for

[Ian Landsman]: other stuff anyways. So Lara Jobs uses it and the store thing that's launching [Ian Landsman]: today for Help Spot uses it and [Aaron]: Nice. [Ian Landsman]: whatever. So we use LiveWire a bunch of places, but. And I just love it. [Ian Landsman]: I'm not even like super, super deep on it yet, but I've been loving all the [Ian Landsman]: changes. I just think it's like so obviously like the foundation to then build [Ian Landsman]: on for world domination. And [Aaron]: Oh wow.

[Ian Landsman]: so yeah, I'm all about the world domination. And [Aaron]: Yeah, me too. [Ian Landsman]: I just think this is like, it's so integrated with Laravel in the way that [Ian Landsman]: none of the other things can ever be, right? And so, yeah, it's just great. [Ian Landsman]: And I think what the film in... guys are doing is great and how they've expanded [Ian Landsman]: that to where you can build. It's not just like an admin panel anymore.

[Ian Landsman]: It's, you know, got bigger ambitions than that. And you can really use it to build [Ian Landsman]: other sorts of apps and things. Um, and I mean, filament sort of a little bit [Ian Landsman]: intense, uh, and, and [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: heavy [Aaron]: so [Ian Landsman]: to get started [Aaron]: talk [Ian Landsman]: with, [Aaron]: to me about [Ian Landsman]: but. [Aaron]: Filament. Cause I thought it was an admin panel, but now I'm seeing people like

[Aaron]: you say, it's like application builders. So like, [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: what is the scope? What is the scope there? [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I mean, the scope is kind of massive. So I mean, it's definitely where [Ian Landsman]: you could use it now for, and maybe you always could to some degree, but [Ian Landsman]: I think it's been fleshed out a bit more where it's not just like admin for [Ian Landsman]: the, like the literal admins of the [Aaron]: Uh huh.

[Ian Landsman]: system to manage a SaaS app, but you could definitely use it whether, it's [Ian Landsman]: gonna be a little hard to explain, but they have this kind of a panel, which is [Ian Landsman]: sort of like an admin dashboard, but you could use it for actually the UI of [Ian Landsman]: your app now with what [Aaron]: interesting.

[Ian Landsman]: they've done with it. or part of the UI, like maybe you have like, you know, [Ian Landsman]: like a user area, but then there might be other areas that don't necessarily [Ian Landsman]: use filament for like the front, let's say that maybe is [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: more custom or things like that. So you could mix and match. You could also

[Ian Landsman]: just use the individual components like the table builder. Like I just saw like [Ian Landsman]: Spatty's using the table builder [Aaron]: Yeah, I've [Ian Landsman]: in [Aaron]: seen the table builder. [Ian Landsman]: the media library, I think. Yeah, and the form builder and things like [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: Uh huh. [Ian Landsman]: So. And, you know, it's basically the missing component library of the Laravel [Ian Landsman]: LiveWire kind of [Aaron]: I see.

[Ian Landsman]: ecosystem, in terms of if you want the like fully integrated components. [Ian Landsman]: Now, I still don't think they're all the way, and they're definitely not all [Ian Landsman]: the way, to sort of the full-on polishness of like the React ecosystem. [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: But I do think it's gotten a lot closer and is a lot better. And then you're

[Ian Landsman]: making different trade-offs. Maybe it's not quite as uber polished as that [Ian Landsman]: in areas, but then on the flip side, it's super tied into Laravel and [Aaron]: Right? Hmm. [Ian Landsman]: it understands Laravel. And you can just totally ignore a whole bunch of [Ian Landsman]: annoying kind of API validation, [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: all that stuff, networking communication type things because it all just magically works.

[Ian Landsman]: So... Yeah, so I don't know, [Aaron]: So [Ian Landsman]: I think, [Aaron]: are you using [Ian Landsman]: hmm. [Aaron]: filament for anything at this point? [Ian Landsman]: So I'm not, well, we use actually one of the components like the table builder [Ian Landsman]: in the new [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: store. But I am evaluating for a super big secret project, possibly using [Ian Landsman]: it pretty heavily. So [Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, so that's what I've been kind of digging into that stuff. But yeah, [Ian Landsman]: I just think it's like all reaches place. I think it's all gonna get a lot better [Ian Landsman]: too. Like they're coming out with like, like Filman's the lead designer, [Ian Landsman]: I think he is at Filman is coming [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: out with like a theme package so that you can have some different styles

[Ian Landsman]: in there. If you want something like a little cleaner than the default, things [Ian Landsman]: like that. [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: And yeah, there's just a lot of activity on the LiveWire end and the Filman

[Ian Landsman]: end with people, you know, doing a lot of active dev work around it. So [Aaron]: It does [Ian Landsman]: I expect [Aaron]: seem to [Ian Landsman]: everything [Aaron]: be [Ian Landsman]: to [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: get a lot [Aaron]: very [Ian Landsman]: better. [Aaron]: active project.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: It seems [Ian Landsman]: yeah, [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: film [Aaron]: there are [Ian Landsman]: is [Aaron]: a lot [Ian Landsman]: very [Aaron]: of [Ian Landsman]: active. [Aaron]: people working on it and there's a lot of motion on it and a lot of people are [Aaron]: like contributing to it. Is there a paid component? How do these people make money?

[Ian Landsman]: Uh, filament, I don't believe has a directly paid component. No, um, you [Ian Landsman]: can sponsor Dan [Aaron]: Got [Ian Landsman]: who [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: kind of runs it. Um, and [Aaron]: Oh, [Ian Landsman]: same [Aaron]: and Dan [Ian Landsman]: with lot. [Aaron]: is working for a company, right?

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I think he works for Kershbaum. Um, [Aaron]: Yeah, and he [Ian Landsman]: so [Aaron]: works [Ian Landsman]: I think he's like [Aaron]: on [Ian Landsman]: semi sponsored [Aaron]: film. Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: in that way. I don't [Aaron]: okay. [Ian Landsman]: know exactly the exact deal there, but I do think they do give him at least

[Ian Landsman]: some time to work on it is my impression. Um, And then, you know, Caleb has [Ian Landsman]: the kind of Livewire, the Alpine components, I [Aaron]: Right, [Ian Landsman]: know he sells, [Aaron]: yeah. [Ian Landsman]: and he has a lot of GitHub sponsors, although [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: GitHub has kind of messed that up a little bit [Aaron]: They have, [Ian Landsman]: on the [Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: sponsorship front. But and Livewire also has a paid support channel now, too, if [Ian Landsman]: you want [Aaron]: That's [Ian Landsman]: to get [Aaron]: right. [Ian Landsman]: paid support for like if you have a big Livewire project and want to be [Ian Landsman]: able to have kind of direct access to the core brain trust, then you can. [Ian Landsman]: can pay [Aaron]: That's [Ian Landsman]: them [Aaron]: right.

[Ian Landsman]: for that, which is a great program too. So yeah, I mean, all these things, I think, [Ian Landsman]: it's like every open source project, it's like how do you [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: monetize it to kind [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: of survive and pay the bills so [Aaron]: Tough, [Ian Landsman]: you can build [Aaron]: tough question. [Ian Landsman]: the open source thing people want. But.

[Aaron]: Okay, so Livewire 3 plus ecosystem plus tight integration with Laravel. That's [Aaron]: why you think 2024 is the year of Livewire. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I just think with this new foundation, so there's always been a little [Ian Landsman]: bit of rough edges to LiveWire [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: when you get in there and build something more complicated where there can [Ian Landsman]: be just more difficult error states or a lot of subtle things you have to [Ian Landsman]: be aware of [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: to make that work. And so... I think that was always a little bit tricky. [Ian Landsman]: Over for pages with lots of components, there'd be like a lot [Aaron]: Right?

[Ian Landsman]: of network stuff going on and things like that. And a lot of that stuff is, [Ian Landsman]: I mean, almost all of it really has been, you know, made a lot better fixed [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: if it was like kind of more bugs or more sensible defaults or optimized

[Ian Landsman]: in terms of like the networking. So like the foundation is super strong. And [Ian Landsman]: I think... with filament on top, then you just have this nice way to actually [Ian Landsman]: get started with, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: bam, I can like build out an idea really quickly, which I know has always [Ian Landsman]: been also kind of one of Taylor's core tenants, so to speak, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: with Laravel is like, can you get to building something, you know, pretty [Ian Landsman]: quickly, which why Laravel always does such a great job with, you know, the other [Ian Landsman]: elements of like. Uh, you know, authentication and having all those jet stream [Ian Landsman]: and all those things to make it really easy to just get all that boiler [Ian Landsman]: plate stuff that is terrible to build kind of out of the way right at the

[Ian Landsman]: beginning and Laravel just can give you that. So, so yeah, I don't know. I [Ian Landsman]: just think, uh, you know, you know, I now having just gone through all the [Ian Landsman]: react stuff too, it's like, you know, even with inertia. It's still, you [Ian Landsman]: know, it's still JavaScript, right? [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Like [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: ultimately,

[Aaron]: got him. Got him. Welcome [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: home, [Ian Landsman]: still JavaScript. [Aaron]: baby. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I'm [Aaron]: You're [Ian Landsman]: back [Aaron]: back. [Ian Landsman]: home. [Aaron]: Woo. [Ian Landsman]: So. [Aaron]: It's still JavaScript.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, it's still JavaScript. And it's like, if you don't have to be in there [Ian Landsman]: or if something can make it nice for you so that you're in there but you [Ian Landsman]: don't have to really know too much about it except for when you really need [Ian Landsman]: to. And then LiveWire does a great job with that. It's all integrated with [Ian Landsman]: Alpine like fully now. So it used to be the sort of like they weren't actually [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: one in the same but now it's essentially like they're one in the same. And [Ian Landsman]: so you can use Alpine, which I like a lot and they can cross communicate [Ian Landsman]: really easily where you need to. for those times we do need to do something [Ian Landsman]: JavaScripty that's literally only in the browser, then great, like you can [Ian Landsman]: do those weirdo JavaScripty things [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and sync it up with LiveWire if you need to and have that all work magically. [Ian Landsman]: So yeah, [Aaron]: I buy it. I buy [Ian Landsman]: there [Aaron]: it. I'm with [Ian Landsman]: you [Aaron]: you. [Ian Landsman]: go. [Aaron]: So I think I think Livewire 3 is like a step change, like a fundamental [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: improvement over Livewire 2. Just I was never a heavy Livewire user and I'm still

[Aaron]: not actually. But I have used Livewire 2 and I've used Livewire 3 and I do think all [Aaron]: of the time and energy that Caleb put into Livewire 3 was worth it because [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: I think [Ian Landsman]: totally [Aaron]: I think [Ian Landsman]: agree. [Aaron]: a lot of a lot of the like I feel like a lot of the drive-by criticisms of LiveWire [Aaron]: 2 was around performance and requests and that kind of stuff. [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: And I feel like Caleb went to the nth degree trying to solve some of the batching [Aaron]: and like you said, tight integration with Alpine. So you can do some stuff that [Aaron]: is strictly front end, but is still fully integrated to LiveWire such that when [Aaron]: you do send a request, like it all goes together. [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: And so I think I think my point of view on LiveWire is, I actually don't mind

[Aaron]: writing JavaScript that much because I write view and not react. Little barb to [Aaron]: react [Ian Landsman]: I'm [Aaron]: there. [Ian Landsman]: not going to view [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: that for sure, [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: but we're not talking about that again. [Aaron]: Yeah. But what I do love about LiveWire is just the network chasm has been crossed [Aaron]: and you don't have to worry about, I think you mentioned like APIs and validation

[Aaron]: at some point. Like it's just all, it's just all there. Like the front [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: end and back end. is handled, like the communication between the two is handled [Aaron]: for you. And that is just, it's just a delight to use to not think about like, all [Aaron]: right, how am I going to serialize this and send it across the wire and validate

[Aaron]: it and send some response back and respond to it. Like Jason wired up my new website [Aaron]: and there's like a listing of content and you can filter between like videos and [Aaron]: articles and talks and that kind of thing. And he did it all in LiveWire [Aaron]: Is that the single page one [Ian Landsman]: Yep. [Aaron]: or is Volt the single page one? Which one's the page router?

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. Well, the Volt is the single page live wire component [Aaron]: Yes, [Ian Landsman]: and then, yeah. [Aaron]: Folio's the page routing. Okay, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: so he did it all with volt style LiveWire. [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: And so you just open up this content list.blade.php and like you [Ian Landsman]: Alright. [Aaron]: see a little bit of LiveWire at the top and then the view or the template at the

[Aaron]: bottom. It's like, oh, [Ian Landsman]: there. [Aaron]: I get this. [Ian Landsman]: Right. Ha ha ha. [Aaron]: This has like collapsed a level of mental complexity in my mind [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: and I really dig it. So I do think, I do think. ecosystem is developing. I think

[Aaron]: all the work that Filament is doing is great. I think also Filo, everything that [Aaron]: Filo touches [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: in [Ian Landsman]: I feel [Aaron]: the Livewire [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: ecosystem is incredibly high quality and he's got, I don't know all of his projects,

[Aaron]: but he's got a lot of stuff going on over there. But I could see it. I could see [Aaron]: 2024 being the year of Livewire and hopefully with like the... the PHP resurgence [Aaron]: and me trying to convince people that PHP [Ian Landsman]: Yes, [Aaron]: is good. [Ian Landsman]: get [Aaron]: Hopefully [Ian Landsman]: them over to team effort. [Aaron]: we get some momentum going here. [Ian Landsman]: Well, the other thing too, I think that's huge for LiveWire is this sort

[Ian Landsman]: of, that it's been fully brought into the fold under the Laravel domain. So [Ian Landsman]: it's like livewire.laravel.com. So that's always the other thing is like, you [Ian Landsman]: know, you can drop LiveWire in for sure and just like use it here and there,

[Ian Landsman]: but also it's. You know, I think ideally in some ways like you'd be, especially [Ian Landsman]: in three, where there's like kind of the single page mode where it can [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: really [Aaron]: which [Ian Landsman]: be preloading things [Aaron]: is super [Ian Landsman]: and like, [Aaron]: cool.

[Ian Landsman]: so you can just have it be everything basically. But that's a huge commitment. And [Ian Landsman]: obviously everybody's always scared about like, well, this is like kind [Ian Landsman]: of a thing. It's run by, you know, one [Aaron]: You [Ian Landsman]: or [Aaron]: all right? [Ian Landsman]: two people. Like, do I want to have my entire app built on this thing?

[Ian Landsman]: And so, you know, being in the official Laravel fold just has that extra level [Ian Landsman]: of assurance that, you know what, like the Laravel in-crew is going to [Ian Landsman]: take care of this project, like no matter what LiveWire is here to stay and [Ian Landsman]: it's going to get better and it's going to be either even more. integrated [Ian Landsman]: into Laravel core in the future in different ways. And so, and same with volt

[Ian Landsman]: being released by Laravel Inc. So you have that support there. So it's just [Ian Landsman]: like everything's coming. Everybody's on board with LiveWire that this is how. This [Ian Landsman]: is like the default way to me to write a Laravel app. It's like. [Aaron]: Woo, [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: that's [Ian Landsman]: LiveWire. [Aaron]: spicy.

[Ian Landsman]: And then like then there's, you know, obviously there's other reasons why [Ian Landsman]: you might use [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: ReactorView or just Blade in a super simple scenario, whatever, but kind [Ian Landsman]: of your main line, I'm building a real app that's significant in size. I feel [Ian Landsman]: like LiveWire is the front end technology you're looking at for that on Laravel.

[Ian Landsman]: And that's what kind of where things are going in my mind. So anyway, so [Ian Landsman]: I think all of that kind of comes together to be the year of LiveWire. [Ian Landsman]: So [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: we'll [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: see, yeah. [Aaron]: it. You want to hear my spicy take on the [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: sub domain sub domain thing? [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, sub the main [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: thing.

[Aaron]: want there to be inertia.laravelle.com too. And I

[Ian Landsman]: Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Aaron]: know I know that inertia is like all things to all people. A little Bible reference [Aaron]: there. But I know [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: that inertia has all these different frameworks. [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: I want I want it to be first party [Ian Landsman]: to be [Aaron]: Laravel. [Ian Landsman]: in the fold, [Aaron]: Yes, [Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: I want it to be in the fold, fully adopted. And I know that it's like feature [Aaron]: complete or whatever, but I just want it to be more specific to Laravel and maybe [Aaron]: like, sure, continue on with the other frameworks, you know, bless their hearts. But [Aaron]: like, I want it to be more specific to Laravel.

[Ian Landsman]: Well, this is a very interesting point because this is actually, um, one of [Ian Landsman]: the things I hit with inertia and now it's been like two months, so I don't [Ian Landsman]: even remember the exact details, but basically [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: I hit a thing where like, I thought it should be doing something a little [Ian Landsman]: bit differently and I wish I could remember the details, but I literally [Ian Landsman]: don't even remember the details, [Aaron]: This is [Ian Landsman]: but [Aaron]: gonna be a good one. This is gonna be [Ian Landsman]: yeah, [Aaron]: good content. Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: but, but that's not really the point. The point is that like, that it's like,

[Ian Landsman]: everybody's like, yeah, it's done. It's featured complete. And I'm like, [Ian Landsman]: well, but like. here's the [Aaron]: I know. [Ian Landsman]: thing of how it's handling something like across the wire that like, I feel like [Ian Landsman]: it should be doing a little bit differently. That would be easier to then [Ian Landsman]: manage. I believe it was like [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: on the Laravel side, it could be doing something a little differently to

[Ian Landsman]: be better. And everybody's like, no, it's feature complete. And I'm like, I [Ian Landsman]: kind of get where they're coming from. That's like, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: well, like, yes, like maybe like literally the wire. protocol [Aaron]: Protocol, [Ian Landsman]: of it is [Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: feature complete, but I feel like there's these other maybe rough edges [Ian Landsman]: and I'm poking around, other people seem to have the same rough edges [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: and things. And I'm like, I don't know, like then I do, I wanna be on the [Ian Landsman]: thing that's like feature complete. Like what's, where is this software that's [Ian Landsman]: done? Like I'm dying to find the done software. I've [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: never had done software ever. I feel like that's not really a thing. And [Ian Landsman]: so that it's done feels a little anti-me, whereas like LiveWire is like, okay, [Ian Landsman]: there's all this activity. I know [Aaron]: Yep, [Ian Landsman]: Caleb's [Aaron]: yep, [Ian Landsman]: super [Aaron]: yep.

[Ian Landsman]: building it out. And it's like, the thing that's moving forward and is not [Ian Landsman]: feature complete since I don't know what that means in software exactly [Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: really so anyway that's kind of where I'm at so I agree like I would love [Ian Landsman]: it to see I think whether I'm using it or not it would be awesome if it was [Ian Landsman]: Sort of fully, I think it has been like sort of mostly adopted, but yeah, [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: think [Ian Landsman]: definitely [Aaron]: it has, [Ian Landsman]: not official [Aaron]: yeah. [Ian Landsman]: official. And so, and I don't know if Taylor's inclined to like put a bunch

[Ian Landsman]: of work into it and things like that, especially since it isn't like just a [Ian Landsman]: Laravel thing. It's sort of [Aaron]: Right? [Ian Landsman]: has to then maintain the Ruby version and I think [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: there's whatever other random frameworks it supports. So [Aaron]: Yeah, there's all kinds. [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: I wonder if there's an opportunity for someone with good taste to like build on [Aaron]: top of inertia that is Laravel specific.

[Ian Landsman]: I think there is a project where someone forked it and was doing a lot of the [Ian Landsman]: stuff [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: I remember [Ian Landsman]: people have [Aaron]: that. [Ian Landsman]: been kind of complaining about, but I don't know where [Aaron]: I don't [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: think it went [Ian Landsman]: stands. [Aaron]: very far. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so that's the thing. It's like to get that momentum is so hard in open [Ian Landsman]: source to, [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: like you can fork anything obviously, but can you then like build up the crew around [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: it who [Aaron]: exactly. [Ian Landsman]: are interested in participating in it [Aaron]: Oh, [Ian Landsman]: is [Aaron]: you know [Ian Landsman]: much [Aaron]: who should [Ian Landsman]: harder.

[Aaron]: do this is Boris. Genius, [Ian Landsman]: There you go. [Aaron]: genius [Ian Landsman]: More work [Aaron]: machine [Ian Landsman]: for Boris. [Aaron]: Boris. Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: Maybe [Aaron]: Boris, [Ian Landsman]: Hello [Aaron]: if [Ian Landsman]: Query [Aaron]: you're listening, [Ian Landsman]: takes [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: it over. [Aaron]: should do this. Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: There you go.

[Aaron]: yeah, we should definitely take on more. That's a good idea. Okay, Year of LiveWire, [Aaron]: I buy it. Good, [Ian Landsman]: Alright. [Aaron]: good, good segment there. I think I wanna talk about LinkedIn. [Ian Landsman]: Oh, going from the new school to the old school. [Aaron]: Not terrible, like actually [Ian Landsman]: Question [Aaron]: kinda [Ian Landsman]: mark?

[Aaron]: good, yeah. Um, okay, [Ian Landsman]: Well, [Aaron]: so [Ian Landsman]: good is far, but let's hear your take on it. [Aaron]: here's... I said not terrible. Yeah, I maybe wrote down good, but I said not terrible. [Aaron]: So historically, here's what I've thought about LinkedIn. LinkedIn [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: is a place where you go to tell made-up inspiring stories about how wonderful you are, [Aaron]: right? So like, [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: I'm walking to a job interview and there's a dog that needed water and I gave [Aaron]: it water and I got to the interview and the dog was the Like wow, [Ian Landsman]: I'm [Aaron]: that's [Ian Landsman]: sorry. [Aaron]: amazing. That's incredible. It's like that's how I viewed LinkedIn forever [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: It's cringe. It's terrible. It's corporate speak. It's nothing and to be fair. There's

[Aaron]: a lot of that still there But I went over and posted some stuff on LinkedIn. I think [Aaron]: the one that really Surprised me was there's a PHP developers group over there and [Aaron]: I went and posted my PHP doesn't suck anymore video and it got like 400 reactions, [Aaron]: I think is what [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: they call it, several dozen comments and like 30,000 views of the post, not the [Aaron]: video, [Ian Landsman]: All [Aaron]: so [Ian Landsman]: right.

[Aaron]: like 30,000 impressions [Ian Landsman]: Wow. [Aaron]: on this LinkedIn post. And I was like, who is active over here? And I think that's [Aaron]: indicative of my small mind is like, I only see [Ian Landsman]: Hahaha. [Aaron]: Twitter as social media, but there's a whole [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: world out there. [Ian Landsman]: Yep. [Aaron]: And so I've started posting a little bit more a little bit more content over there.

[Aaron]: And I think one of my rules is always gonna be yourself. And so I'm not doing like [Aaron]: the, you know, the cringe business content. I'm just basically [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: saying the same things I would say on Twitter. And I've noticed that it's getting [Aaron]: a lot of, like a lot of traction [Ian Landsman]: Hmm. [Aaron]: and I'm super surprised. And so I tweeted something like, you know, LinkedIn might be

[Aaron]: a viable place to hang. And you said something like, yeah, it's always been pretty [Aaron]: good. Where, what have I been missing? [Ian Landsman]: Well, I don't know. I said something along those lines, but really, I [Aaron]: You're [Ian Landsman]: mean, [Aaron]: really walking back the good [Ian Landsman]: I'm [Aaron]: thing. [Ian Landsman]: walking back [Aaron]: You're... [Ian Landsman]: on that because, [Aaron]: You don't want to be on the record as saying it's good. Ha ha.

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, well, not that it's just so it's very interesting. First of all, that [Ian Landsman]: you even had a more sort of a deeper understanding of it than I did until [Ian Landsman]: like maybe a year or two ago when I started relooking to it again is more [Ian Landsman]: like, I literally just thought it was a directory of corporate [Aaron]: Hmm. [Ian Landsman]: people.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: Like and I was on there and occasionally people would be like, you know, [Ian Landsman]: can we connect to you or whatever they called [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: it. And I would just go through like once a year and like check all the little [Ian Landsman]: check boxes for the hundred people who asked to be connected and I would [Ian Landsman]: let them be connected and then I wouldn't come back for a year. And I know

[Ian Landsman]: you could in-mail. And so I was like, okay, well, I guess people are over [Ian Landsman]: there in-mailing each other and like, whatever, fine. But then like recently, [Ian Landsman]: I don't know if it's like the fall of the, you know, kind of the semi fall [Aaron]: Hmm [Ian Landsman]: from grace of Twitter, we ignited it, or this has always been going on, so maybe [Ian Landsman]: somebody can tell us the history, but then I was like, Oh, there's like actually

[Ian Landsman]: people like, I didn't even know about the boss dog story. Like, I just thought [Ian Landsman]: there was like nothing going on there, but there's actually people posting [Ian Landsman]: stuff there, like [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Twitter ish social media, like fashion. And I was like, Oh, wow. And so then, [Ian Landsman]: yeah, like then looking around a little more, everybody's like, yeah. Of course,

[Ian Landsman]: like LinkedIn's like the best place to post your stuff. And I'm like, really? [Ian Landsman]: Like, I don't even think, I can't even think of LinkedIn. Like anytime [Aaron]: Unfathomable. [Ian Landsman]: I go to say anything in a social context, I never consider LinkedIn. I never [Ian Landsman]: think [Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: about it. I've been recently trying to make myself think about it unsuccessfully, [Ian Landsman]: but I'm going to keep trying because I do think, I mean, it makes sense. [Ian Landsman]: It's like, especially if you're on the angle of. you know, the more businessy [Ian Landsman]: angle where I'm trying [Aaron]: Right. [Ian Landsman]: to get [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: my name out there for my products or services or whatever. Well, like just talking [Ian Landsman]: to pure business people probably makes more sense than just the randos on [Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: Twitter. Right? But yeah, I don't know. There is, have you solved this [Ian Landsman]: barrier? Like to me, there's things I still don't even understand. Like [Ian Landsman]: you can be followed, but that's different than the thing [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: with the check mark. And I don't understand. I guess you could just follow me [Ian Landsman]: without the check mark. And these are [Aaron]: Correct. [Ian Landsman]: two separate systems, I [Aaron]: You [Ian Landsman]: guess. [Aaron]: can like [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: don't [Aaron]: can [Ian Landsman]: know, [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: the whole thing's [Aaron]: turn [Ian Landsman]: weird.

[Aaron]: on I think you can turn on creator mode or like something [Ian Landsman]: Okay. [Aaron]: like that on LinkedIn and that allows you to have followers and then [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: you can have the traditional like connections where [Ian Landsman]: Okay, and those [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: are [Aaron]: those [Ian Landsman]: separate.

[Aaron]: people can message you or like you know them [Ian Landsman]: Right, you're the one degree, two degree, whatever degrees separation, yeah. [Aaron]: I don't really care about connections over there to be honest. So sometimes I'll [Aaron]: get a whole bunch of connection requests and I'm like, I don't know any of you people [Aaron]: know. And then sometimes I get some and I'm like, sure, whatever, I don't care. [Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: And so I don't have really good rules on that. But yeah, the turning on creator mode [Aaron]: or follower mode or whatever it's called, [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: separates the number of connections you have from the number of followers you have, [Aaron]: which I think... makes it more like a social network than just [Ian Landsman]: Riot. [Aaron]: a traditional networking type thing. [Ian Landsman]: Well, that's why I was talking to, I think the thing that really woke me up

[Ian Landsman]: was just like a few months ago. And I was talking to Eric Barnes of [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: Laravel News and he was saying how they have a hundred thousand followers [Ian Landsman]: on LinkedIn. And I was like, [Aaron]: Whoa. [Ian Landsman]: what are you even talking about? It's like, yeah, we got a hundred thousand

[Ian Landsman]: followers. And I'm like, holy cow. Like who would have even thought? I haven't [Ian Landsman]: even considered LinkedIn in [Aaron]: He said [Ian Landsman]: 20 [Aaron]: on Twitter [Ian Landsman]: years. [Aaron]: that LinkedIn drives more clicks to [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: Laravel News than Twitter does. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Which makes sense. It all makes sense, but now it's just [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: like, how do I retrain my brain? [Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: It's very difficult. Um, [Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: but I do want to, because I think it just makes a lot more sense over there, [Ian Landsman]: but, uh, we'll see maybe with some of this new stuff coming down the pike, [Ian Landsman]: I can, I can try to rework my brain over to there a bit more, but so what [Ian Landsman]: have you utilized that, like, have you posted about screencasting or what [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: have [Aaron]: I've posted [Ian Landsman]: you [Aaron]: about [Ian Landsman]: done?

[Aaron]: screencasting, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I've shared some of the YouTube videos, and [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: then something I'm trying to do as much as makes sense whenever I have something [Aaron]: visual to share is make a little video about it, even if it's just like a screen recording, [Aaron]: not like a talking head or anything. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: Because to my understanding, which I don't spend a lot of time researching the

[Aaron]: rules of these networks, but to my understanding, every network is like... They [Aaron]: want you to stay, they want the viewers to stay as long as possible. They want video, [Aaron]: they want engagement. And so [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: I think, I always think like, what do the networks want? What do I want to do

[Aaron]: slash what am I comfortable like putting out there publicly? Like I don't ever want [Aaron]: to end up in the spot where I'm I'm like tweeting these wise business sayings [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: because they get a lot of engagement. So like there's some happy medium between what [Aaron]: does the network want? What do I wanna do? What is honest to me? And honestly, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: video is very easy. So like [Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: with the site redesign, [Ian Landsman]: That's a good point. [Aaron]: you know, I'm tinkering around and I'm like, hey, I like the way that this looks. [Aaron]: I could do a screenshot and that's better than nothing. Or I could make a little [Aaron]: video of the interaction and then tweet that and put that also on LinkedIn. And that [Aaron]: I think... drives the engagement up a little bit and at least drives [Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: the watch time up. And then so then Twitter's like, ah, we'll push this to more [Aaron]: people. [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: So that's kind of what I've done recently is take these short little screen recording [Aaron]: videos that are like 30 seconds or whatever, [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: and then put a little bit of text with like, hey, I'm working on this thing. And that's

[Aaron]: another thing. I always wanna be like a little bit of the moment and talk about what [Aaron]: I'm actually doing and not [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: like. I'm sitting in my ivory tower talking about, you know, how you should think [Aaron]: about software development or business. [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: It's [Ian Landsman]: Ha ha

[Aaron]: like, ah, that's just not my brand and I don't wanna do that. So that's kinda [Aaron]: what I'm thinking in terms of what am I putting on specifically LinkedIn at this [Aaron]: point. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, now that I have the new video set up, I kind of want to do more video [Ian Landsman]: too. I think that makes sense. It is pretty quick to do really. And [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: I'll have the screencasting course to [Aaron]: Exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: make sure I'm doing it correctly. Cause that is [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: the part I get into like screen flow and I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing [Ian Landsman]: in here. Forget [Aaron]: Yep, [Ian Landsman]: it. So [Aaron]: yep, [Ian Landsman]: like, [Aaron]: I got you. [Ian Landsman]: that'll be good. Yeah. So, yeah. So doing more video. How do you handle this? [Ian Landsman]: Like, there is this so, I'm starting to think about some of the stuff for

[Ian Landsman]: like my new projects. And... It's like how early you talk about them. Like [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: I hate, you know, cause you're so small, whether it was just you or even with [Ian Landsman]: a small team, it's like stuff just comes up and then you're sidetracked for [Ian Landsman]: a month. That just [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: happens all the time. [Aaron]: Uh [Ian Landsman]: And [Aaron]: huh.

[Ian Landsman]: so then you don't make any progress for a month. And [Aaron]: Uhhhhhh... [Ian Landsman]: so I hate talking about it like too early, but also you have to talk about [Ian Landsman]: it. I think a lot [Aaron]: You've [Ian Landsman]: of the [Aaron]: got [Ian Landsman]: interest [Aaron]: to. [Ian Landsman]: and engagement [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: is like, here's what I'm doing. This is what went wrong. So if I'm not talking

[Ian Landsman]: about it early, then it's just like, oh, it's launch day. And then whatever, [Aaron]: Exactly. [Ian Landsman]: you haven't built up any momentum. So [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: there is this like balance Like I want it to be functional to some degree before [Ian Landsman]: I really get into talking about it, but also not too [Aaron]: Man. [Ian Landsman]: far along that it's already too far along. So I don't know.

[Aaron]: I feel that deep in my bones [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: because like [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: we [Ian Landsman]: tricky. [Aaron]: talked about, you know, expansion, contraction, you do a thing and then you're [Aaron]: like, I can't do this thing right now. And then, you know, you cut it. And I'll be [Aaron]: honest, it's a little embarrassing to talk about something you're doing [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: and then [Ian Landsman]: that's true too.

[Aaron]: have to like have to pull back for a second. And then months later, people are [Aaron]: like, oh, are you ever going to finish that thing? And you're like, yeah, honestly, [Aaron]: I'm trying. Like [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: yes, I want to. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: And I will. But like, I... I have a full life full of things that I'm doing that [Aaron]: are not just like the one thing that I'm tweeting about or the one thing that you [Aaron]: latched [Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: on to that I'm tweeting about, right? [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: So yeah, I feel that a lot. And I think the risk, so the benefits, let's talk about [Aaron]: the benefits. The upside I think is potentially unlimited, you know? [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: You share the thing, somebody shares it, whatever, the whole deal of like, you put [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: yourself out there, good things are gonna happen. The downside is you're gonna

[Aaron]: potentially be embarrassed. And I feel that a lot. Like I [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: feel that a whole lot of, I'll put something out there and then have to drop it [Aaron]: for sometimes a long time and people are like, why didn't you do that? And it is [Aaron]: embarrassing and it sucks and I hate it. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: But I think it's better, like I have found that it's better to just like, talk about

[Aaron]: what you're working on at the time. And then like, just kind of hope that you carry [Aaron]: it through. Like I have [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: a lot of open, I have a lot of open threads on what I'm doing and what people know [Aaron]: that I'm doing and that sort of stuff. And sometimes I'll [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: pick up a thread and like push it down the road a little bit, mixed metaphor. I'll

[Aaron]: push the, you know, kick the ball [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: down the field, whatever. [Ian Landsman]: Ha ha. [Aaron]: And sometimes I have to drop it. But like, I think the screencasting one is a good [Aaron]: example. I didn't really tweet much about it at all until I was pretty close to [Aaron]: being done because that one I knew like... man, you got a long road ahead of you. [Aaron]: Like you just got the design [Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: done and the design is very cool. I got the design done in like April or something, [Ian Landsman]: Alright. [Aaron]: but I hadn't recorded a single video and I was like, [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: I'm not gonna start this treadmill until I'm pretty [Ian Landsman]: All [Aaron]: close [Ian Landsman]: right, [Aaron]: to done because [Ian Landsman]: so there [Aaron]: that [Ian Landsman]: you go.

[Aaron]: one [Ian Landsman]: That's [Aaron]: I wanted, [Ian Landsman]: a good example for me, [Aaron]: yeah. [Ian Landsman]: I like that, yeah. [Aaron]: I wanna keep the hype, like I wanna carry the hype through to like the launch day [Aaron]: where people pay me money and buy the thing [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: instead of like, this is something I'm just kind of working on, let's all see [Aaron]: how it develops together. So, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I don't know, it's tough.

[Ian Landsman]: It is tough. It's, it's a very tough call. Yeah. But I liked that idea. I [Ian Landsman]: mean, I guess that's kind of what I was thinking. It's like, I want to get [Ian Landsman]: things to a point where they're like semi-functional and more than just an [Ian Landsman]: idea in my head, but then [Aaron]: Yes. [Ian Landsman]: definitely way before. Yeah. It's coming out in a month or whatever. Like [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: gotta be before that. Um, what kind of gets into this whole idea too of like, [Ian Landsman]: uh, I don't know, maybe we should say this for another episode, but I want to [Ian Landsman]: get into that Tony Fidel tweet at some point that I'm obsessed [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: with. And [Aaron]: let's [Ian Landsman]: let's [Aaron]: save [Ian Landsman]: say [Aaron]: that, [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: because I feel like [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, let's say that.

[Aaron]: that's gonna be a big one. You know [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: what I wanna end on? [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, let's give [Aaron]: I wanna [Ian Landsman]: it. [Aaron]: end on the fact that your kids aren't gonna drive. What's going on there? [Ian Landsman]: Uh, trust me, this [Aaron]: Ha!

[Ian Landsman]: is a very interesting, interesting story. You as a young, a young parent, um, [Ian Landsman]: I'm going to come down, be the old wise man [Aaron]: Alright, [Ian Landsman]: here [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: in part [Aaron]: tell me. [Ian Landsman]: knowledge that like. You just have all these thoughts about your kids when [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: they're little or before you have kids or all these things. And then like [Ian Landsman]: what actually how the world changes along the way is quite interesting. [Ian Landsman]: And then how that impacts your children is quite interesting because the world [Ian Landsman]: you have your kids in will not be the world that they grow up in and then [Ian Landsman]: become young [Aaron]: True. [Ian Landsman]: adults in. [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: And so. Yeah, like everything's changed in the world. So I don't know, of the [Ian Landsman]: three kids, only the oldest so far has not got his license and doesn't [Ian Landsman]: have really any interest [Aaron]: Okay, [Ian Landsman]: in [Aaron]: hit [Ian Landsman]: driving. [Aaron]: me with the ages [Ian Landsman]: So. [Aaron]: again. How old are they? [Ian Landsman]: So he's 17 [Aaron]: Seventeen.

[Ian Landsman]: and then the younger two are too young guys, 13 and 10. So, [Aaron]: Okay, so the [Ian Landsman]: but the [Aaron]: 17 [Ian Landsman]: other two, [Aaron]: year old. [Ian Landsman]: at least right now are the younger two are like, we want to drive like they are [Ian Landsman]: a little more [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: like how I felt. I mean, I was there literally the day I turned 16 [Aaron]: Yep, same.

[Ian Landsman]: in, in the DMV to like get my license and do all this stuff. Fine. Uh, but [Ian Landsman]: yeah, the oldest he's not interested in it. And then at first we're [Aaron]: So how [Ian Landsman]: like. [Aaron]: does he get around? [Ian Landsman]: It's totally, he is okay with sacrifices. I would not be okay with. So [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: like, obviously we take them or, um, pretty much like, obviously we're taking

[Ian Landsman]: it most of the time, he has a girlfriend. So sometimes the girlfriend's [Ian Landsman]: family takes him, but like even [Aaron]: Does [Ian Landsman]: right [Aaron]: the [Ian Landsman]: there, [Aaron]: girlfriend [Ian Landsman]: like, [Aaron]: drive? The girlfriend doesn't [Ian Landsman]: no, [Aaron]: drive either? [Ian Landsman]: the girlfriend doesn't drive and he doesn't [Aaron]: What? [Ian Landsman]: drive. I know. And so like when [Aaron]: Oh my goodness!

[Ian Landsman]: I, so I'm married to the woman I was dating when I was his age. So we are [Ian Landsman]: married, my wife and I have been [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: together the whole time. And like, I was, I lived at her house. Like I, [Ian Landsman]: like as soon as I got my license, I was gone. I was at [Aaron]: Yeah! [Ian Landsman]: her house all day every day. And We would go, whatever, we're driving all

[Ian Landsman]: over. We'd go to New York City, even though that was illegal, because you have [Ian Landsman]: to be 18 to drive there. We'd be all over the place, right? And so we just, [Ian Landsman]: I mean, I literally was never home. The minute I got my license, that was [Ian Landsman]: it. That's the last my family saw me. I was out like 8 a.m. till midnight [Ian Landsman]: every day. I was out in the world. [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: And I don't know, he's like fine with it. And part of that is like that [Ian Landsman]: the technology, like whatever, he can talk to his girlfriend, he can message [Ian Landsman]: her, he can video chat with her, he could do whatever, like. I don't know, [Ian Landsman]: like they're okay with it. And so then we started like just seeing these articles

[Ian Landsman]: pop up. This is not even weird. Like this is just a, this is a thing now. Like [Aaron]: YEELEY [Ian Landsman]: it's like a huge percentage of kids are not getting their license when [Ian Landsman]: they're 16. It's like 50% or something crazy. And, and yeah, so I don't [Ian Landsman]: know. Like, [Aaron]: Wow. [Ian Landsman]: is it because I know there's Uber? Is it because like people are gonna live

[Ian Landsman]: in cities and they feel like they don't need it? I don't know, but. He doesn't [Ian Landsman]: really have any interest in he's okay with the limitations of like obviously [Ian Landsman]: only being able to go places when we can take him for the most part. And, [Ian Landsman]: um, yeah, [Aaron]: Wow, [Ian Landsman]: so it's very, [Aaron]: I cannot [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: imagine. [Ian Landsman]: very interesting.

[Aaron]: Okay, so being 16, driving through McDonald's and getting a McFlurry, [Ian Landsman]: Lived [Aaron]: and then [Ian Landsman]: at McDonald's. [Aaron]: drive around at like 11 at night, listening to Postal Service, thinking [Ian Landsman]: Yup. [Aaron]: about how you're never gonna die. Like that [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: is being 16! [Ian Landsman]: I know. It's [Aaron]: Wow!

[Ian Landsman]: very strange to me. That is, yes. I would just drive up and down our main [Ian Landsman]: road, like [Aaron]: Yes, [Ian Landsman]: listen [Aaron]: for [Ian Landsman]: to music. [Aaron]: sure. Take the long way home, yep. [Ian Landsman]: Yup. Just like back and forth and yeah. Like, but you know, that's a whole [Ian Landsman]: weird thing. I mean, with technology, I think, I mean, this is all part of the, I

[Ian Landsman]: guess, I feel like it's possibly a detriment. Who knows if it's actually [Aaron]: That was a [Ian Landsman]: a [Aaron]: deep [Ian Landsman]: detriment, [Aaron]: breath. You [Ian Landsman]: but [Aaron]: were stealing [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: yourself for that whatever you were about to say [Ian Landsman]: But [Aaron]: there. [Ian Landsman]: it's like even just driving around in my town, which is the [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: town I grew up in. So I know this town very well. I mean, when I'd ride [Ian Landsman]: my bike around before I had a license, I mean, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: there was kids everywhere, kids on bikes. [Aaron]: Yep, [Ian Landsman]: I remember [Aaron]: yep. [Ian Landsman]: being scared of the kids on bikes. I remember [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: being friends with other kids on bikes, kids walking, kids everywhere. And

[Ian Landsman]: there's no kids anywhere now. Like there's no kids riding bikes. There's [Ian Landsman]: no kids walking. There's no kids anywhere. So I do think there is. And [Ian Landsman]: then, I mean, you think about like how did COVID impact all that? [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: Like a [Aaron]: for [Ian Landsman]: lot of [Aaron]: sure.

[Ian Landsman]: these kids in their kind of formative years were like, well, no, now like [Ian Landsman]: you're already staying inside a lot because you have game systems and phones [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: and all these things. And now like, no, you're really staying inside. And [Ian Landsman]: I don't know. So it's just like that. This is the culture [Aaron]: Amazing. [Ian Landsman]: for this age range, but I don't know. He said he might get it at some point.

[Ian Landsman]: So he's not totally, totally written it off. but he's not in any rush [Aaron]: Wow. [Ian Landsman]: which is very interesting and definitely one of these things where like yeah [Ian Landsman]: like I would never in a million years think I'd have a kid who didn't want [Ian Landsman]: to drive because like I was like driver number one like I was there [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: minute [Aaron]: for [Ian Landsman]: one [Aaron]: real.

[Ian Landsman]: doing it so yeah it's interesting [Aaron]: Yeah, I mean, my bet with my wife is that our kids will never learn to drive because [Aaron]: cars will drive themselves. [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: Not, [Ian Landsman]: saw you say that. [Aaron]: yeah, not because they won't want to. Maybe I'll win the bet on a technicality. [Ian Landsman]: Man. [Aaron]: So like, maybe that's [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: a good [Ian Landsman]: there [Aaron]: thing. [Ian Landsman]: you go.

[Aaron]: I love winning. Yeah, as long as I win, I'm happy. But [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I've been watching like the, I think it's Zooks, maybe Z-O-O-X has won. [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: Cruise has won. But like the Zooks cars are, it's interesting when you go to like [Aaron]: autonomous vehicles, for real autonomous vehicles, [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: they don't have to be, the interiors don't have to be designed and shaped like cars [Aaron]: of the [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: past, [Ian Landsman]: know, that's [Aaron]: right? [Ian Landsman]: what I want, yeah. [Aaron]: Yeah, and so these Zooks cars are like mobile living rooms, basically, or they're [Aaron]: like, you know, single, like single parts of a train, but on wheels. So you have [Aaron]: like, [Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: I think four seats that face each other and you just kind of push a button and it shows [Aaron]: up and the little, you know, the little doors open and you climb in and then they close [Aaron]: and... I think that's gonna be, frankly, I think that's gonna be the future. I think [Aaron]: it's gonna be, even if you own one, maybe you own one, maybe not everything is [Aaron]: a rental or on demand or whatever, but you have a vehicle that you can get in

[Aaron]: and tune out until you get to the spot you're going. And we don't have time to talk [Aaron]: about it today, but also I think tunnels are the future. You can get me started about [Ian Landsman]: You're [Aaron]: tunnels. [Ian Landsman]: full [Aaron]: We [Ian Landsman]: on the Elon, [Aaron]: could, we could [Ian Landsman]: the [Aaron]: do it, [Ian Landsman]: Elon [Aaron]: we could, [Ian Landsman]: train.

[Aaron]: yeah, we could do a whole hour on how everything should be underground. So, but I [Aaron]: think, I think that's the future, but hey, if I went on a technicality [Ian Landsman]: Hmm. [Aaron]: of like, you know, kids just want to stay inside, I [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: guess I win.

[Ian Landsman]: I mean, you should check the fine print of your, [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: of [Aaron]: know, [Ian Landsman]: your bet [Aaron]: I need [Ian Landsman]: there [Aaron]: to, [Ian Landsman]: of [Aaron]: I need, [Ian Landsman]: if it [Aaron]: I know. [Ian Landsman]: actually is, does it have to be truly autonomous or just that nobody drives [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: anymore?

[Aaron]: know, [Ian Landsman]: Cause [Aaron]: maybe [Ian Landsman]: everybody [Aaron]: I'll [Ian Landsman]: is [Aaron]: keep [Ian Landsman]: V [Aaron]: bringing it up to her and [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: I'll just [Ian Landsman]: all [Aaron]: drop [Ian Landsman]: Apple [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: VR [Aaron]: the autonomous. [Ian Landsman]: headsets and like nobody actually leaves their house anymore. [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: So yeah, [Aaron]: exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: it could be, it could be. All [Aaron]: Okay, well we'll see, [Ian Landsman]: right, [Aaron]: check [Ian Landsman]: man. [Aaron]: back in. Let's see, they're [Ian Landsman]: We'll, [Aaron]: two years [Ian Landsman]: we'll check [Aaron]: old, check [Ian Landsman]: back. [Aaron]: back in 14 years. [Ian Landsman]: Episode [Aaron]: So y'all stay tuned. Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: 7,846 [Aaron]: stay tuned to the pod. Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: will. [Aaron]: exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: We'll know for sure, but I mean sounds good [Aaron]: Alright, talk to you soon. See ya! [Ian Landsman]: We will yeah, I want to hey hold on [Aaron]: Oh [Ian Landsman]: I want [Aaron]: wow [Ian Landsman]: to know [Aaron]: we have a [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: whole [Ian Landsman]: know [Aaron]: list [Ian Landsman]: to know [Aaron]: now!

[Ian Landsman]: where to find us Yes, because every episode you like [Aaron]: We [Ian Landsman]: tell him [Aaron]: fumbled [Ian Landsman]: where to find [Aaron]: it last [Ian Landsman]: us. [Aaron]: time. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: All [Ian Landsman]: and [Aaron]: right, [Ian Landsman]: I'm always [Aaron]: okay, [Ian Landsman]: like, I [Aaron]: back [Ian Landsman]: don't know [Aaron]: up, back [Ian Landsman]: where to [Aaron]: up, [Ian Landsman]: find [Aaron]: back up. [Ian Landsman]: us

[Aaron]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do the thing [Ian Landsman]: I don't [Aaron]: where [Ian Landsman]: know [Aaron]: you say, all right, man, and I'll say, all right, and then we'll go to where to find [Aaron]: us. So start over, go ahead. [Ian Landsman]: All right, man [Aaron]: All right, well, Ian, where can people find us? That was perfect. [Ian Landsman]: You can find us at mostlytechnical.com, on Twitter at mostlytechpod. I guess we should

[Ian Landsman]: get a LinkedIn. I don't know if that's even a thing, but we should look [Ian Landsman]: into [Aaron]: Oh [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: no. [Ian Landsman]: And then mostlytechnicalpodcast.gmail.com. So if you have feedback, you can send that [Ian Landsman]: there, or just hit us up on Twitter, and we will note that for the feedback [Ian Landsman]: segments. But all right, thanks everybody. [Aaron]: Okay now that's the end, see ya! [Ian Landsman]: See ya!