03: The Secret Is to Get a Truck

[Ian Landsman]: Alright, we're back! Episode 3. [Aaron]: We are back and I think we're both in different locations.

[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Aaron]: I made it back home to Texas and so I'm back in my normal setup. Where are you? [Ian Landsman]: I'm in the Outer Banks of North Carolina. [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: So yeah, we've been in different spots every episode, I feel like. So I don't [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: know. It might be [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: hard [Aaron]: think [Ian Landsman]: to keep [Aaron]: that's [Ian Landsman]: this [Aaron]: actually

[Ian Landsman]: up. We're [Aaron]: true, [Ian Landsman]: gonna have to [Aaron]: yeah. [Ian Landsman]: keep traveling. [Aaron]: Yeah, so what's in the Outer Banks? This is not a part of the country I'm familiar [Aaron]: with. [Ian Landsman]: So this is my first time here. I've never been here before. It's really great. [Ian Landsman]: It's, we normally go to Martha's Vineyard kind of almost every year. And this

[Ian Landsman]: year my family was going down here. So my brother and my cousin, we decided [Ian Landsman]: to tag along with them. So we're all here. It's great. Like beach right on the [Ian Landsman]: ocean, or beach on the ocean, house on the ocean. You know, ice cream and [Ian Landsman]: bunch of kids running around and this huge house with the pool and the beach [Ian Landsman]: and. a million rooms and everything.

[Aaron]: And is the beach on the ocean or is the beach in town? Hopefully the beach [Ian Landsman]: The [Aaron]: is [Ian Landsman]: beaches, [Aaron]: also on the ocean. [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: on the ocean. [Aaron]: Okay, good. [Ian Landsman]: Although we have this hurricane, I guess, coming or something. I don't know. [Ian Landsman]: So we'll see. I don't think it's going to hit [Aaron]: Oh yeah!

[Ian Landsman]: us, but I think it's going to be like 50 mile an hour winds and things like [Ian Landsman]: that. So. [Aaron]: Yeah, I think I just saw that this morning. So now is the is the weather there? [Aaron]: Is it 108 like it is in Dallas or is it OK? [Ian Landsman]: No, it's all right. It's been in the 80s, so it's been good beach weather. [Ian Landsman]: It's been [Aaron]: That's [Ian Landsman]: warm [Aaron]: amazing.

[Ian Landsman]: and very humid, so kids have been wanting to get in the water and all that. [Ian Landsman]: That's been good. Then hit the pool. I never really had a setup quite like [Ian Landsman]: this before. It's nice, because we have the beach, obviously, out there. And [Ian Landsman]: then you come in from the beach, and there's the pool and the house. So you [Ian Landsman]: start at the beach, then you hit the pool, kind of like fully cleanse and

[Ian Landsman]: refresh, and then... Boom, you're in the house hanging out. I mean, this is like [Ian Landsman]: the theater room. I watched messy in here the other night. I'll be watching [Ian Landsman]: messy in here tonight again. [Aaron]: Amazing. [Ian Landsman]: So that's really [Aaron]: OK, [Ian Landsman]: cool. [Aaron]: so I have I have opinions about the beach and [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: the pool. [Ian Landsman]: Oh, interesting.

[Aaron]: The beach, the beach is kind of frustrating to me because the way that I've always done [Aaron]: it is you pack up all your stuff, you schlep it out there onto the beach. It's, you [Aaron]: know, it's 100 degrees. You're covered [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: in sand. You get out there and then you're expected to just sit there in the salt [Aaron]: and the sun for hours. [Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe [Aaron]: and then you gotta walk all the way back to the house for lunch.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: I love the pool. I love going to the beach and sitting in a pool. That is my absolute [Aaron]: favorite. You can wander outside, hop in the pool, wander back inside. I just don't [Aaron]: like- I don't like packing it up and walking down the boardwalk. [Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe [Aaron]: Does that make me an old man or just lazy or what does that say?

[Ian Landsman]: No, but let me tell you, I used to be like you, but I discovered the secrets [Ian Landsman]: of the beach and I will share with the audience the [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: secrets of the beach, okay? So this is actually why we ended up going to

[Ian Landsman]: Martha's Vineyard when the kids were little and for like 10 years or so. Because [Ian Landsman]: one of the big keys to the beach, so out, like the dragging yourself to the beach, [Ian Landsman]: forget it, it's the worst thing ever, especially once you have kids, [Aaron]: Forget [Ian Landsman]: the [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: kids, [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: all the stuff, [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: the kids [Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: are running around, the whole thing's terrible. It's like you're just suicidal [Ian Landsman]: after you just [Aaron]: Yes. [Ian Landsman]: walk to the beach, you're like, that's it. So. You can't do that. Don't ever [Ian Landsman]: do that. You gotta buy a truck. Okay. You have [Aaron]: Oh [Ian Landsman]: a truck. All right. [Aaron]: This is a low barrier to entry. You gotta buy a truck.

[Ian Landsman]: Listen, [Aaron]: Okay, yeah, [Ian Landsman]: you need [Aaron]: no, [Ian Landsman]: a car. [Aaron]: keep going. [Ian Landsman]: This [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: is America. Everybody uses their trucks as like mini vans. [Aaron]: Okay, [Ian Landsman]: It's fine. [Aaron]: okay, [Ian Landsman]: You [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: have a truck. [Aaron]: for sure, keep going. [Ian Landsman]: You could also do... [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: No.

[Aaron]: thought it was gonna be like, pack an extra sandwich or something, but yeah, buy [Aaron]: a truck. All right, keep [Ian Landsman]: Buy [Aaron]: going. [Ian Landsman]: a truck. All right. Truck is best. You could use SUV. or even a mini van [Ian Landsman]: with four wheel drive, but you know, a truck is best for a lot of reasons, [Ian Landsman]: which I can tell you about. You get a truck, you find a beach that lets [Ian Landsman]: you drive on the beach, okay?

[Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: This is the solution to all your problems, [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: because, [Aaron]: see where this is going. [Ian Landsman]: yes, because, right, so everything's in the back of the truck, right? [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: You drive to the beach, you don't have to stay near the water. So if you [Ian Landsman]: wanna save money, if it's like, beach vacation can be quite [Aaron]: Oh, [Ian Landsman]: expensive [Aaron]: I see.

[Ian Landsman]: if you wanna be on the water, right? So forget that. You stay [Aaron]: Forget [Ian Landsman]: inland. [Aaron]: that, just buy a truck, yeah. [Ian Landsman]: You buy a truck with your savings. You drive onto the beach. Okay. You park your [Ian Landsman]: truck an inch [Aaron]: For [Ian Landsman]: from the [Aaron]: sure. [Ian Landsman]: water. You push all the stuff out the back. It's there. You didn't carry

[Ian Landsman]: anything. You have a huge ass cooler with tons of food. If you have little [Ian Landsman]: kids, all right, it's going to get gross for a second, but you have a little [Ian Landsman]: portable potty that's [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: got the little Ziploc baggy thing. They can go [Aaron]: Oh, [Ian Landsman]: to [Aaron]: that's [Ian Landsman]: the bathroom [Aaron]: horrifying. [Ian Landsman]: right there. You don't have to take [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: them to the bathroom back anywhere. And when they're done. tile everything into [Ian Landsman]: the truck, it takes two seconds. You drive off the beach. Most of the drive [Ian Landsman]: on beaches, you usually end up with a huge area of beach all to yourself. [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: It's the best thing ever. It's fabulous. [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: So that's my recommendation. [Aaron]: Okay, one fatal flaw is you have to buy a new vehicle, but other than that, it's

[Aaron]: flawless. I guess, you know, if you're flying, you could rent a truck [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: when you get there. [Ian Landsman]: all these [Aaron]: So [Ian Landsman]: places [Aaron]: that's [Ian Landsman]: have [Aaron]: something. [Ian Landsman]: rental jeeps and trucks [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: and things like that. So you could rent it. Um, and then, Hey, a lot of [Ian Landsman]: people now that just have, I mean, you're in Texas. You told me there's

[Ian Landsman]: no trucks down there. Everybody's got a truck. [Aaron]: Oh, everybody's got a truck. Yeah, everybody's [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: got a truck. I could [Ian Landsman]: exactly. [Aaron]: borrow a truck from anyone around here. So here's something I saw on Twitter that kind [Aaron]: of blew my mind. You're on this trip and you're like, hey, [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: I'm gonna go to this amazing little roadside restaurant that nobody's ever heard

[Aaron]: of. It's called [Ian Landsman]: Hahaha [Aaron]: a Waffle House. I've never been before. What, you've never been to a Waffle [Ian Landsman]: I've [Aaron]: House? [Ian Landsman]: never been to Waffle House. This has been on my list of things to do for [Ian Landsman]: a very long time. I don't know if I've ever even seen a Waffle House. It's [Ian Landsman]: crazy, [Aaron]: What?

[Ian Landsman]: like I know. It's not even like I've been avoiding them. I don't even believe [Ian Landsman]: I've had the opportunity because usually I would take the opportunity out of [Ian Landsman]: a thing like that I've been waiting for forever because it's like Waffle [Ian Landsman]: House, it's such a thing. [Aaron]: Do they not have them [Ian Landsman]: No, [Aaron]: in the North? [Ian Landsman]: Northeast [Aaron]: Really?

[Ian Landsman]: has no Waffle Houses that I've ever seen. So, yeah. Waffle house. [Aaron]: What did [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: was [Aaron]: think? [Ian Landsman]: very impressed. So it's, I mean, I'm the day I tweeted that you said you had [Ian Landsman]: gone there for breakfast. So there you [Aaron]: I had [Ian Landsman]: go. [Aaron]: gotten [Ian Landsman]: It's like, [Aaron]: it [Ian Landsman]: yeah, [Aaron]: for breakfast. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: it's a regular staple, but it was great. It's [Aaron]: It [Ian Landsman]: like, [Aaron]: really [Ian Landsman]: there's no vegetables. [Aaron]: is. [Ian Landsman]: There's like, there's waffles and that's it. And like, you know, sandwiches [Aaron]: No vegetables, [Ian Landsman]: and hash [Aaron]: waffles. [Ian Landsman]: browns. [Aaron]: Put it on my tombstone, which [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: unfortunately may be coming soon if I keep going to Waffle House. But yeah, [Ian Landsman]: That was good. [Aaron]: it's like an American classic. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: Okay, [Ian Landsman]: I was surprised. [Aaron]: so Waffle House is everywhere down here. They also like weirdly never close. And [Ian Landsman]: Right, I saw [Aaron]: they [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: have, I don't know if they have a super robust supply chain or what. But there's [Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: like a way that you can measure how bad a natural disaster is. And it's like called [Aaron]: the Waffle House Index. [Ian Landsman]: Ha [Aaron]: And it's [Ian Landsman]: ha [Aaron]: like, how quickly did Waffle House reopen slash did they ever close? It's very [Aaron]: interesting. I don't know the full details, but Waffle Houses are everywhere down [Aaron]: here. I went on, uh, I guess that was, would have been Friday, um, [Ian Landsman]: Mm, [Aaron]: for [Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: breakfast. So every, every three weeks we have this group of guys that gets together [Aaron]: and goes, goes to breakfast. Um, it's like. The only time everyone is available is, [Aaron]: you know, 7 a.m. on Friday morning. So there are like, there are probably eight [Aaron]: of us in this group. And yeah, it's awesome. And [Ian Landsman]: real world. [Aaron]: we usually, we usually go to this place called John's Cafe, which is terrible.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: But when there are only, when there are five or fewer of us that [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: RSVP, yes, we go to Waffle House because Waffle House has, you know, those tables that [Aaron]: you cannot move that only [Ian Landsman]: I noticed [Aaron]: seat [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: four people. Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Yes.

[Aaron]: And so we'll go to Waffle House and the food. is incredible. It is like, it's the [Aaron]: dirtiest, dineriest place you've ever been, [Ian Landsman]: It [Aaron]: but the [Ian Landsman]: is. [Aaron]: food is amazing. And they like, you ask for eggs, soft scrambled, and they make [Aaron]: eggs, soft scrambled. Like they know how to make eggs. It's, it's great. I love [Aaron]: Waffle House.

[Ian Landsman]: Well, I love those places. See that it's like, I'm sure this goes into that [Ian Landsman]: index is like, there's basically like what, like 10 ingredients on the whole [Ian Landsman]: menu, you know, it's just like the same things just like ordered differently [Ian Landsman]: and, and so like, yeah, they probably have an easy time reopening and they [Ian Landsman]: only have to know how to do a few things. You can get a chef. It's not

[Ian Landsman]: like they're making a bunch of like a regular diet. And in Northeast, we [Ian Landsman]: have tons of regular diners [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: and it's just like, they have 400 items. There's like pot roast and eggs [Ian Landsman]: and whatever sandwiches and pasta and whatever it does, [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: all these different things. And usually it's all. Gross. And I want us

[Ian Landsman]: to get Waffle Houses. I need Waffle Houses. The other thing, so I need Waffle [Ian Landsman]: Houses. These are my big things from the South. I need Waffle Houses and I [Ian Landsman]: need Brew Thrus. Do you have Brew Thrus there? [Aaron]: A brew through? I think [Ian Landsman]: Yes. [Aaron]: I know what that is, but I don't, I don't know if that's a brand name. That's not [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: something [Ian Landsman]: like, [Aaron]: we say down here.

[Ian Landsman]: okay, it's like, uh, it's like a car wash. All [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: right. Like a drive through car wash. But when you drive through it, instead [Ian Landsman]: of your car getting washed, there's just refrigerators along the side [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: where you get beer and you just drive through. It's unbelievable. I'm like, [Ian Landsman]: what genius thought of this? Like, I don't know why we don't have these

[Ian Landsman]: in the Northeast. Like just drive through and get your beer. [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: It's amazing. [Aaron]: that's I didn't realize that was something that wasn't everywhere. Yeah, we have [Ian Landsman]: No. [Aaron]: I think we call them in Texas, we have a few beer barns drive through beer [Ian Landsman]: Okay. [Aaron]: barns. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: And then I do remember in. So I went to I went to college at Texas A&M, which is [Aaron]: down in, you know, college station small, small town. [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: We had a drive through margarita barn. And [Ian Landsman]: Ooh. [Aaron]: so they would Yeah, so you could drive through and get all kinds of different margaritas. [Aaron]: And for the dear listener, You would not drink them until you got home, obviously, [Ian Landsman]: Obviously.

[Aaron]: because they would put tape over the lid and you couldn't open it. It was impossible. [Aaron]: There was a little piece of tape on it and it was like, oh, I guess I'll have to [Ian Landsman]: How [Aaron]: wait [Ian Landsman]: would you [Aaron]: until [Ian Landsman]: ever get [Aaron]: I get [Ian Landsman]: through [Aaron]: home [Ian Landsman]: that? Right. [Aaron]: to open [Ian Landsman]: You need [Aaron]: this [Ian Landsman]: scissors.

[Aaron]: because you need scissors. Yeah, so, yeah, that's funny. Yeah, Waffle House and [Aaron]: Beer Barns and a truck on every corner. That's, [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: you got it. That's the South. [Ian Landsman]: There [Aaron]: Good [Ian Landsman]: we [Aaron]: to [Ian Landsman]: go. [Aaron]: be back, baby. I love [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: being home. [Ian Landsman]: I know. I don't get down to like this part like southy south that much.

[Ian Landsman]: Like it's only every few years. Like I sometimes end up in Florida or a place [Ian Landsman]: like that, which is sort of its own weird thing. I don't know. [Aaron]: It is its own weird thing, yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: Don't put that, don't ascribe that to us. I don't want Florida. [Ian Landsman]: Right. It doesn't feel like North Carolina Virginia type South to me. I [Ian Landsman]: don't know [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: seems different. So yeah, it's been great. How was your drive back? Because [Ian Landsman]: you were making the long haul there. [Aaron]: I was, yeah. Made the long haul, made it, made it back. Listened to book two of the [Aaron]: Three Body Problem trilogy, the [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: entire [Ian Landsman]: wanna do that. [Aaron]: way. Incredible. It's so, so good. [Ian Landsman]: I'm excited [Aaron]: It is unlike any sci-fi book I've ever read. [Ian Landsman]: Hmm

[Aaron]: So it's very, very good. And the second book has this, has this like, maybe literary [Aaron]: device that is extremely, it just, It keeps your mind spinning the entire time [Aaron]: of like, [Ian Landsman]: Hmm. [Aaron]: how would I, what would I do in this situation? How would I, it's like almost like [Aaron]: a logic puzzle that the characters are playing through. And [Ian Landsman]: Interesting. [Aaron]: it's very good. So, [Ian Landsman]: Hmm.

[Aaron]: highly recommended. I made two stops. I stopped in Cleveland again. And then I stopped [Aaron]: in Little Rock, Arkansas, about four and a half hours from home. I thought I could [Aaron]: power through. But man, when you're driving and the sleepies hit, you don't wanna [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: battle the sleepies on the road because it takes two seconds and you're gone. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, four hours is still, it's a pretty good hall of the power through [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: extremes, tiredness. Yeah, that's a, that's a good stop. And you didn't have [Ian Landsman]: the kids and stuff with you. So it's like, [Aaron]: Right. [Ian Landsman]: uh, whatever, it just pop in and it's [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: easy. [Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. So I'm back feeling much better being home in my space with a little [Aaron]: bit of routine. Kids start school, I think maybe next week. And life is going [Aaron]: to be totally different.

[Ian Landsman]: know this has been like the worst summer ever in terms of like I had all [Ian Landsman]: these plans for things I was gonna do this summer and just like the kids [Ian Landsman]: had so many activities it was just constant running around between three [Ian Landsman]: kids and only two adults and we're both every day like dropping somebody [Ian Landsman]: off picking somebody up or it was brutal and just so it's just so distracting

[Ian Landsman]: obviously then when you're just taking out of your zone like one of the kids [Ian Landsman]: for every other Every other day for like three weeks had a two hour camp [Ian Landsman]: that was like noon to two or something, [Aaron]: That is [Ian Landsman]: just like [Aaron]: not enough. [Ian Landsman]: crazy stuff. [Aaron]: Two hours [Ian Landsman]: You know? [Aaron]: is [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: not enough. [Ian Landsman]: It was crazy.

[Aaron]: Like you barely make it home before you have to go [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: back. [Ian Landsman]: Exactly. So my whole summer just totally blew up on my, um, productivity [Ian Landsman]: that I was expecting, but that's all right. We'll get everybody back in school [Ian Landsman]: and get back to the normal grind, which will be nice. [Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. You wanna do some follow ups? We have a [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: few.

[Ian Landsman]: let's do some follow up. All right, well the first one is, immediately after [Ian Landsman]: the last episode, Nuno wrote back that in Volt, you can actually put the [Ian Landsman]: blade template on the top of the file. So if you haven't seen Volt, it's [Ian Landsman]: a single page livewire blade file combo package. And so you can put the [Ian Landsman]: blade file on top and then the PHP livewire logic on the bottom, which also

[Ian Landsman]: then lets you... get rid of the PHP tag then. So, because you don't need [Ian Landsman]: the ending PHP tag, you start [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: the PHP tag after the bleed template. I don't know, what do you think about [Ian Landsman]: this? I tried it out, I wasn't [Aaron]: Love [Ian Landsman]: sure, I don't know. I think [Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: I like it, but it's sort [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: of, [Aaron]: love it because that's the [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: way [Ian Landsman]: kind of [Aaron]: that [Ian Landsman]: like [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: Vue, [Aaron]: do my [Ian Landsman]: right? [Aaron]: view single file [Ian Landsman]: Right, [Aaron]: components [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: is I would always put the template tag at the top and the script tag at the bottom.

[Aaron]: And now people are coming into my space and telling me I gotta do script setup and [Aaron]: I gotta put script setup and do the composition API and nah man. I put the template [Aaron]: at the top,

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Aaron]: the script at the bottom. So this for Volt, this feels good to me. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, people seem very excited about that tweet. So if you don't know about [Ian Landsman]: that and you've been trying to give that a shot and see how you like it, [Ian Landsman]: all right, we have another one, right? [Aaron]: Yep, we got another one. On the first episode, we talked about how Tobias' indexing [Aaron]: book, his landing page, was really, really beautiful. And turns out it's the same

[Aaron]: designer that has done all the new filament stuff. And I think he's full time [Aaron]: on the filament team [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: now. His name is Hassan Zaharina. Close. I definitely know it's Hassan. We'll put the [Aaron]: link to his website in the show notes. But he's done the sushi landing page, which [Aaron]: is Caleb Porzio's array driver for Eloquent. He's done Tobias' indexing book,

[Aaron]: he's done filament, so he's done all kinds of great stuff. And I've seen him around [Aaron]: the community a lot, I just didn't know that he did Tobias' book, so I wanted [Aaron]: to follow up with that and give him a shout out for that. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, his work's really interesting. I like it's kind of fresh and different. And [Ian Landsman]: I always like [Aaron]: It [Ian Landsman]: having [Aaron]: is kind of [Ian Landsman]: designers [Aaron]: fresh, right?

[Ian Landsman]: in the mix, new designers in the mix, designers in the Laravel sort of family [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: and sphere is always good to have. And yeah, the Susie Page stands out a [Ian Landsman]: lot for sure and the new filament [Aaron]: I feel like [Ian Landsman]: site is great. [Aaron]: his design is a little bit more fun and lively. It's a little bit bubbly. [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: And it's really, really good. I just love that everyone has a different. This is

[Aaron]: very different than the stuff that the Tailwind Labs team puts out. And I like [Aaron]: that. They're both good, but I like that this is a little bit more fun and bubbly. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, yeah, a little different. The colors, colors too are definitely kind [Ian Landsman]: of not your standard.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: You know, what's going, what's hot lately of it's black and white or it's, [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: you know, [Aaron]: BG blue to BG purple [Ian Landsman]: right. [Aaron]: gradient. Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: That kind of thing. Like, so a little, little different there stands [Aaron]: So if, [Ian Landsman]: out. [Aaron]: as a reminder, if you wanna get, shout it out to upwards of 15 to 20 people, send [Aaron]: us mail. We have mailbag, [Ian Landsman]: Hey!

[Aaron]: we will read it out on the air. So I forget where to send it, so I'm gonna throw [Aaron]: it over to Ian. Where do people send their mail? [Ian Landsman]: Uh, mostly technical pod at gmail.com. [Aaron]: Oh good, [Ian Landsman]: I believe [Aaron]: that was, I put you on [Ian Landsman]: pretty [Aaron]: the spot, [Ian Landsman]: sure. [Aaron]: that was perfect, yeah. Pretty [Ian Landsman]: Pretty [Aaron]: sure.

[Ian Landsman]: sure that's true. I'm pretty [Aaron]: Also, [Ian Landsman]: sure [Aaron]: also [Ian Landsman]: it'll be in [Aaron]: Twitter. [Ian Landsman]: the show notes for [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: sure. [Aaron]: it'll be [Ian Landsman]: So [Aaron]: in the show [Ian Landsman]: just [Aaron]: notes for sure, for [Ian Landsman]: check [Aaron]: sure. [Ian Landsman]: there just in case, but I'm pretty sure that's correct.

[Aaron]: Yeah, that sounds right. So thanks for [Ian Landsman]: We'll [Aaron]: those [Ian Landsman]: get [Aaron]: followups. [Ian Landsman]: this down. [Aaron]: Yeah. All right, where do you wanna go next? [Ian Landsman]: Well, we'll go into Laravel stuff a little bit earlier. How about that? [Ian Landsman]: Let's say we get some under our belt. [Aaron]: Wow. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Something different We got this lift package

[Aaron]: Yeah, so I saw this. Tell me, one, tell me what it is, and then tell me your opinions [Aaron]: on it. [Ian Landsman]: Um, hold on. Let me just get, see what we're doing. You get to watch us run [Ian Landsman]: the show here because I want to have Uh it up in front of me. Why is this [Ian Landsman]: not working? [Ian Landsman]: vacation podcasting is not ideal. [Aaron]: We're talking Wendell Adriel's Laravel [Ian Landsman]: That's what [Aaron]: lift.

[Ian Landsman]: I'm looking for. See, you got the [Aaron]: Hey, [Ian Landsman]: name. [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: I wanted [Aaron]: got [Ian Landsman]: his last [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: name. [Aaron]: Come [Ian Landsman]: I knew it's [Aaron]: on. [Ian Landsman]: Wendell. I was thinking about his Wendell, but not, not... [Aaron]: You didn't know it was Wendell. I knew it was Wendell.

[Ian Landsman]: I knew it was Wendell, [Aaron]: You're you're [Ian Landsman]: but [Aaron]: over there fumbling in the in the messy [Ian Landsman]: I know. [Aaron]: room. You [Ian Landsman]: All [Aaron]: don't know anything. OK, you have [Ian Landsman]: right, [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: so [Aaron]: You have the GitHub pulled up. [Ian Landsman]: I've got it. So yeah, so Wendell's [Aaron]: OK.

[Ian Landsman]: package. Wendell, just a great name, by the way. I don't [Aaron]: Great [Ian Landsman]: think I've ever [Aaron]: name. [Ian Landsman]: met a Wendell in person, [Aaron]: No, [Ian Landsman]: but [Aaron]: great [Ian Landsman]: I love [Aaron]: name. [Ian Landsman]: that name. [Aaron]: Congrats, Wendell, great name. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, yeah, he hit the lottery of the... [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: the naming, [Aaron]: seriously.

[Ian Landsman]: parents did a good job there. Yeah, so Lyft is this kind of crazy package [Ian Landsman]: that lets you define a whole bunch of stuff about eloquent models with attributes. [Ian Landsman]: And [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: I just have a lot of thoughts here, but

[Aaron]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Ian Landsman]: a lot of thoughts. But first of all, before we even get into the package, [Ian Landsman]: what's your just general take on attributes [Aaron]: Yeah, see, [Ian Landsman]: in PHP? [Aaron]: this is where we're gonna end up. [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: You know, Ian, I don't love him. I really don't. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that was my take initially as well. [Aaron]: Initially, wow, this is a setup for conflict that makes good [Ian Landsman]: Possibly,

[Aaron]: radio. So [Ian Landsman]: possibly. [Aaron]: here's the thing, one, I'm not familiar with them. And so I'm super aware that what [Aaron]: looks good to me is 70% what I'm familiar with. And I think that that's everybody. And [Aaron]: so I'm looking at all of these attributes. Even back in the day for a hot minute, there [Aaron]: was, let's do all of our routing. by putting little attributes over the controller

[Aaron]: methods. And I was like, no way, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: I hate that, [Ian Landsman]: no, I don't [Aaron]: hideous. [Ian Landsman]: know that's a terrible idea. [Aaron]: Yeah, so hated that. Attributes in general still seem foreign to me. And I think [Aaron]: part of what I don't like about it is it feels like, man, it feels, maybe it feels [Aaron]: like you scatter one thing that used to be centralized into a bunch of different

[Aaron]: places. like the routing is a good example. I like to have a routes file. I don't [Aaron]: want to have like my route definitions littered all over the place. [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: Um, and I also, maybe this is a knowledge gap. I don't fully know how they work and what [Aaron]: all can be influenced. And I don't think I would remember to check like, Oh, you [Aaron]: got to go check the annotation or the, or the attribute or whatever. And so I don't

[Aaron]: know. And he's the, you can like pass arguments. And so then you're like, I don't [Aaron]: know. Okay, [Ian Landsman]: Hahaha [Aaron]: that, yeah, I'll stop there. Tell me your journey with attributes. [Ian Landsman]: Well, I haven't had like the full journey yet, I guess, but I definitely [Ian Landsman]: didn't like when people were trying to do it with the annotations and like, [Ian Landsman]: it's like a comment that has all the stuff [Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: in it. Like I hate the comments with the stuff in it. I don't want to comment [Aaron]: Oh, so [Ian Landsman]: at all. [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: And I don't [Aaron]: the [Ian Landsman]: want comments with stuff in it. [Aaron]: PHP Doc Blocks, that version? [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Like I don't [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: like DocBlocks in general. And I don't like, I mean, at some point there was [Ian Landsman]: something you do in there, right? And like the IDE [Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: would like do certain stuff with it or whatever. It was like, even like [Ian Landsman]: type. management stuff like that, which obviously is a common use case, [Ian Landsman]: but I just hate that. I don't like the syntax. It's so it's a big like eyesore [Ian Landsman]: in your way of reading the code. So I definitely prefer this over those, but [Ian Landsman]: I agree. Like when I first saw the attributes in general, I was like, I don't

[Ian Landsman]: know. But here and there, there's been more use cases like LiveWire uses them [Ian Landsman]: pretty heavily in LiveWire [Aaron]: They [Ian Landsman]: 3. [Aaron]: do. [Ian Landsman]: A lot of the spaddy packages use them now in different ways and kind of [Ian Landsman]: I'm kind of seeing it. I mean, there's definitely the big limitation is that [Ian Landsman]: you can't like do anything dynamic in them. And that does [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: sometimes cause some oddities like with translation [Aaron]: Hmm. [Ian Landsman]: strings and things like that where like you need to be able to do something [Ian Landsman]: dynamically. So there are some, like even in this package, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: like if you use it for a rule and you pass a string, like you can't translate [Ian Landsman]: that string. So if you want to override [Aaron]: Got [Ian Landsman]: like [Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: the rules message, you have no way to translate it. Um, which [Aaron]: Got [Ian Landsman]: is semi [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: edge case, but there's a fair amount of apps that are translated. So there [Ian Landsman]: are, there is stuff like [Aaron]: Hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: that, but I don't know for, for eloquent, I do kind of feel like this is [Ian Landsman]: pretty interesting because it's like, instead of looking three or four or five [Ian Landsman]: places in the file for different configurations, I can just [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: see them all here and they're like, so it's sort of like a, in that way,

[Ian Landsman]: like a routes file, it's like, I can just go to this one place. and see [Aaron]: Oh man, [Ian Landsman]: everything applied [Aaron]: you got [Ian Landsman]: to the [Aaron]: me.

[Ian Landsman]: name instead of going to like the different methods that do the relationship [Ian Landsman]: and then do the type and like whatever, do the rule [Aaron]: Okay, so give [Ian Landsman]: and [Aaron]: us [Ian Landsman]: like [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: all [Aaron]: two [Ian Landsman]: this stuff. [Aaron]: second overview of what's happening in this package so people know. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so in the package, a lot of the stuff you can define in Eloquent already

[Ian Landsman]: through like methods or different ways like that. You can or like in properties [Ian Landsman]: like fillable, the fillable property and things like that. You can just [Ian Landsman]: do as attributes right next to the public property. So. you can just have [Ian Landsman]: that it's fillable. It's like a fillable attribute. And then there's a cast [Ian Landsman]: attribute if you want to cast it. So these aren't, you don't have to put

[Ian Landsman]: this name property in the fillable array. And then again, in the cast thing. And [Ian Landsman]: then if you have a relationship based [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: on it, it can, that could be defined here. So you can have all these things [Ian Landsman]: in one spot. You can have your validation rules there. So you don't have like [Ian Landsman]: the separate rules array and all that. So it's interesting. I don't, so

[Ian Landsman]: I haven't even used it yet. I've just been sort of following along and [Ian Landsman]: every day he's kind of adding new [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: attributes. But I feel like there's something here. I wouldn't mind, there's [Ian Landsman]: like a technique I like to call something being outwelled. I wouldn't [Aaron]: Huh?

[Ian Landsman]: mind it maybe being outwelled by the man himself because, you [Aaron]: Ha [Ian Landsman]: know, he [Aaron]: ha [Ian Landsman]: always has a great vision on interfaces [Aaron]: Yeah He does [Ian Landsman]: and APIs [Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: and things. And so... There's probably some stuff he might be able to, uh,

[Ian Landsman]: do here, but I don't know. I feel like there is something here because that [Ian Landsman]: is always one of the things that in a big eloquent file does get a little [Ian Landsman]: bit annoying. [Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: That it's like, okay, I have this, you know, property I need to like check [Ian Landsman]: in 10 places, like where all it's doing and whatnot. And so, I don't know, [Ian Landsman]: having this one place to have everything defined about it is, is kind of

[Ian Landsman]: intriguing. But you're, [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: you're not, you're not buying it yet. You're not [Aaron]: I'm [Ian Landsman]: in. [Aaron]: not sold. And the only reason I'm not sold is because of... is truly because of my [Aaron]: distaste on the strong side and not being familiar on the kind side of annotations [Aaron]: or whatever they're [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: called. So one thing I do like is that we're still exploring. Like, I love [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: that Wendell did this because... There can be, I think, sometimes like a sense that [Aaron]: Laravel is almost complete [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: and we're lucky for that. But this is this is a good like, hey, I've got an opinion [Aaron]: and the opinion is, you know, I want to use annotations. And I think I'm going to [Aaron]: try to pull it off. Love that. Absolutely love that. I'm not yet sold on the language [Aaron]: feature [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm

[Aaron]: yet. And so that makes this package be something that I look at and I'm like, ah. [Aaron]: I don't want to do that. This is kind of the same way I feel about super strong types. [Aaron]: Like if somebody were to [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: tell me, oh, you could add this package, you could use PHP stand level nine and get [Aaron]: super strict typing. It's like, I don't really want to do that. [Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: I'm not super interested in that. But I do like anything in the eloquent space and [Aaron]: I do like that we're still trying to push the ball forward. But yeah, I can see. [Aaron]: Like I can see people are really gonna like this, especially people that like annotations. [Aaron]: Are they annotations or attributes? What are they actually [Ian Landsman]: No, [Aaron]: called?

[Ian Landsman]: am I calling them annotations? Maybe that, yeah, I think [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: they [Aaron]: think [Ian Landsman]: are attributes. [Aaron]: I was calling them attributes, [Ian Landsman]: Yes, I mean, [Aaron]: but I think they're annotations. [Ian Landsman]: no, [Aaron]: No, [Ian Landsman]: it's [Aaron]: is it [Ian Landsman]: attributes. [Aaron]: the other way around? [Ian Landsman]: Yes, [Aaron]: It's attributes.

[Ian Landsman]: it's attributes. I think we got ourselves mixed up there in the beginning, [Ian Landsman]: but it's attributes, [Aaron]: Okay. [Ian Landsman]: yes. Yeah, [Aaron]: Yeah, well, that's confusing. [Ian Landsman]: well, it's so new. We don't even know what to call these [Aaron]: We [Ian Landsman]: things. [Aaron]: don't, yeah exactly. How am I supposed [Ian Landsman]: It's so [Aaron]: to like [Ian Landsman]: new, [Aaron]: something?

[Ian Landsman]: it's like [Aaron]: I don't [Ian Landsman]: three [Aaron]: even know [Ian Landsman]: years [Aaron]: what it is. [Ian Landsman]: old, but you know, [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: we don't know what to [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: call them. [Aaron]: exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, the attributes, so. The other thing that with this kind of package, [Ian Landsman]: always I'm a little cautious is cause like it's really messing with something [Ian Landsman]: that's deep baked into the core and that a lot of things expect to work a certain [Ian Landsman]: way and who knows if in some edge case somewhere, it doesn't work that certain [Ian Landsman]: way and you don't discover that for quite a while until you hit the weirdo

[Ian Landsman]: edge case where it actually doesn't load up properly or whatever. So [Aaron]: Yeah, that's one of [Ian Landsman]: there's. [Aaron]: the tough parts about this. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I haven't looked into how it works like internally. So I have no [Ian Landsman]: idea if that's, if there's anything like that, but I do, that is just an area where

[Ian Landsman]: I do get a little cautious. It's not one of these packages that's like [Ian Landsman]: its own thing and whatever it's, [Aaron]: Right, [Ian Landsman]: you know, [Aaron]: yeah. [Ian Landsman]: it'll be clear if it's working or not, cause it just adds a feature. Uh, this [Ian Landsman]: is a little different where everything, everything's going through this [Ian Landsman]: thing and so, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: uh, it's a little scarier, but yeah.

[Aaron]: Yeah, also one of the tough spots for me is putting the rules in the model itself. [Aaron]: Um, because I think that's good a lot of the times, but then rules can be context [Aaron]: dependent. And so I've always, this, this package aside, I've always had a hard [Aaron]: time centralizing the rules into [Ian Landsman]: I was just gonna [Aaron]: the model. [Ian Landsman]: ask you about that. Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: Yeah. It's like, [Ian Landsman]: Just in general, [Aaron]: well, well in,

[Ian Landsman]: what do you do? What do you like to do with your [Aaron]: oh [Ian Landsman]: rules? [Aaron]: man, I don't [Ian Landsman]: This [Aaron]: know. [Ian Landsman]: is like the eternal [Aaron]: It's the [Ian Landsman]: struggle [Aaron]: worst. [Ian Landsman]: I have, [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: yes. [Aaron]: so the problem is, and I've tried centralizing it before and basically making my own kind [Aaron]: of like rules factory, rules object thing. [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: It just doesn't work. So [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: here's the problem. Here's the problem as I see it. You've got HTTP coming in and [Aaron]: the rules could be different based on permissions or the... the [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: state that the model is in, all kinds of things, right? And that's just HTTP. Then [Aaron]: you've got [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: command line tools that you're working with where you can, as the super admin or whatever,

[Aaron]: you go in and you're like, ah, I need to process these 50 customers. I'm just gonna [Aaron]: run this command line tool. And then you've got background jobs. You've got all [Aaron]: these places that can touch a model and every situation is so different that the [Aaron]: rules are necessarily different. And while it's good to say like, the name is always [Aaron]: required, like that may be the only one that is always true. [Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: And I don't want to put that somewhere and then these other rules somewhere else. [Aaron]: And so I feel like I end up [Ian Landsman]: Yep. [Aaron]: recreating the rules just to have safety that I'm validating the right thing at the [Aaron]: right time. [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: There's like, I just, I don't know. I don't know the better way.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I don't know. It's like, I almost, I have toy, uh, like I've been playing [Ian Landsman]: around with the DTOs and things like that, because [Aaron]: Uh huh. [Ian Landsman]: like they let you validate, but there is still these scenarios where like [Ian Landsman]: the data is different on create versus update. And then [Aaron]: quarterly.

[Ian Landsman]: you have like something that's optional sometimes. And then sometimes that [Ian Landsman]: gets weird with the DTO and like, so then you have these like classes for [Ian Landsman]: optional, like in the spotty package and you have like, you know, you have [Ian Landsman]: all this like tight pinning that's going on and multiple type hints and [Ian Landsman]: like, it's just like, I don't know. It's, I want, I want it to be like that. [Ian Landsman]: I want it to [Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: be, here's the central location, all the magic's here. I don't have to worry [Ian Landsman]: about it. But then in practice, yeah, like in, I mean, this is a big thing [Ian Landsman]: too. I feel like that if you're not, haven't built a real app or, I just feel [Ian Landsman]: like when you have real apps that customers use, there's just all these

[Ian Landsman]: things that you have to do that are not. perfect and you have to duplicate [Ian Landsman]: code sometimes or things like that because ultimately like the app just has [Ian Landsman]: to work a certain way and the nice way that the framework or the package [Ian Landsman]: or whatever would want you to do it just it doesn't work it doesn't [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: work and so it just ends up being more complicated or you do all a bunch [Ian Landsman]: of weird stuff to make it work but now it's all these edge cases are created [Ian Landsman]: or like just more complexity of figuring out what's even going on versus [Ian Landsman]: if you just had a rules array in two different spots, that was basically

[Ian Landsman]: the same except for, you know, one or two differences or whatnot. So. [Aaron]: Yeah, I feel like this is that's why we don't have it as a first party primitive, [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: Laravel has given us the powerful validator and the rules and the form requests. And Laravel [Ian Landsman]: Alright. [Aaron]: has given us all of that. And I feel like the reason we don't have validation built

[Aaron]: into the eloquent model is for that exact reason. It's because [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: it's too hard. Like there are too many different ways that you might want to update [Aaron]: a model in too many different scenarios that having a static rules array. just isn't [Aaron]: viable in a real application. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. This is another thing I've been thinking about lately is I don't [Ian Landsman]: know. I'll be interested to get your take on it. I feel like every time

[Ian Landsman]: I stray away from that. So this is kind of even somewhat counter to what we're [Ian Landsman]: just saying, but every time I stray away from the eloquent model is sort [Ian Landsman]: of the, the core of logic, so to speak, um, I don't even [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: know how to describe this, but if like, like even with messing with the DTOs [Ian Landsman]: and things like that, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: it just gets like so much more complicated [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and the benefits. I feel like. I always see them in the app, like I'm reading [Ian Landsman]: about something. I'm like, oh, this would be amazing. And then you try to [Ian Landsman]: implement it and you're like, oh yeah, but this thing and the other thing,

[Ian Landsman]: and it doesn't work in this scenario and all those things. And I'm like, [Ian Landsman]: oh, I should have just like stuck with like calling the eloquent model, [Ian Landsman]: like create in this controller and everything would have been [Aaron]: Yes. [Ian Landsman]: fine. But instead I [Aaron]: Correct. [Ian Landsman]: got fancy [Aaron]: Ha. [Ian Landsman]: and now it's like taking me three extra days and [Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: I don't even know what's going on. So [Aaron]: Now I'm [Ian Landsman]: I don't [Aaron]: wrapped [Ian Landsman]: know what [Aaron]: around [Ian Landsman]: your [Aaron]: the [Ian Landsman]: thoughts [Aaron]: axle [Ian Landsman]: are. [Aaron]: of misdirection and [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: yep, I am an eloquent slash active record maximalist. [Ian Landsman]: Okay, yeah. [Aaron]: As much as I can do, give me a super fat model with methods for everything and I'm

[Aaron]: a happy man. So [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I feel the same way. I will say that I try to stick to... I try to stick to... the [Aaron]: conventions elsewhere, like form requests are a good example [Ian Landsman]: Yep. [Aaron]: because you can validate those, get all your correct data out, and then throw it [Aaron]: into an eloquent model.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: But yeah, the whole, I feel like I don't want to open this can of worms, but event [Aaron]: sourcing is one of them where [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: it's like, [Ian Landsman]: That's even like the next [Aaron]: oh [Ian Landsman]: level. Yeah. [Aaron]: man, what am I doing? And maybe [Ian Landsman]: Yup. [Aaron]: we can have Daniel on at some point to argue with us, Daniel [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Coborn, and he'll tell me why it's good. But that's one of those things where [Aaron]: I'm like... You know, man, I'm just gonna do my model thing. So yeah, I feel the [Aaron]: same way. [Ian Landsman]: One thing I have sort of taken in and use a lot now is actions, like the action [Ian Landsman]: pattern. I [Aaron]: Oh, [Ian Landsman]: do [Aaron]: tell [Ian Landsman]: like that [Aaron]: me.

[Ian Landsman]: a lot. Yeah. Like [Aaron]: Somebody [Ian Landsman]: there's a layerable [Aaron]: was just [Ian Landsman]: action package [Aaron]: asking [Ian Landsman]: that works [Aaron]: me [Ian Landsman]: really good. [Aaron]: if I used actions and I said that I haven't, but I wish I had in certain cases. [Aaron]: So tell me what you're using them for. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so I love the actions because it's pretty much just like calling

[Ian Landsman]: the active record, you know, create or whatever you're trying to do. It's [Ian Landsman]: just like one little step of abstraction from that. And then in a real world [Ian Landsman]: app, I find that it's quite useful because it's. So the action is just [Ian Landsman]: like a PHP class for people who don't know. If you use the Laravel actions [Ian Landsman]: package, it does some nice like helpers and stuff for you, so I would recommend

[Ian Landsman]: that I've used that quite a bit. Um, I don't use that, that thing goes [Ian Landsman]: a little crazy and starts to get a little too much for me. Like you can [Ian Landsman]: just take this action and have it be your whole controller. You [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: could take this action and have it be your whole job and things like that. [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: So that, I actually don't use those parts because it starts to get like in

[Ian Landsman]: the super magical territory. I just [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: use it as an action. And so ways you just call this class, like where you [Ian Landsman]: would call like post create or whatever, you might just have like a create [Ian Landsman]: post action. And so you call that and you can just pass in your validated [Ian Landsman]: data or whatever.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: And so what I like about that though, is it gives you this nice central spot [Ian Landsman]: for if you have other business logic, which in like a real world app, you [Ian Landsman]: tend to. And so it's like, well, when I do this, I also have to like, just do

[Ian Landsman]: this other thing. Right. And so instead of having to duplicate that in the [Ian Landsman]: multiple places of yes, I have it in this controller and I have another controller [Ian Landsman]: and I have a command line thing that does it and as a web hook, then it's a [Ian Landsman]: different controller and whatever, so you can just have this, the action that

[Ian Landsman]: you call everywhere. You pass the data. So that's centralized. If you have [Ian Landsman]: other stuff to do, maybe you have to like fire an event or whatever, you [Ian Landsman]: don't have to duplicate all that code everywhere. So it just gives you [Ian Landsman]: that one step back, but it's not complicated. Like you can just go [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: into that. It's very clear. Usually they're very short and it's super testable.

[Ian Landsman]: Like it's like, this is this one [Aaron]: Yeah, that's true. [Ian Landsman]: function. I can just easily write tests for it. Um, and the package also [Ian Landsman]: has nice helpers for that. You don't need to use a package. Like you can just [Ian Landsman]: build a PHP class and do this, but The package does have some niceties like [Ian Landsman]: test helpers and things, which are really great. And yeah, so I really like

[Ian Landsman]: the actions. That is one that stuck with me because it's pretty much like [Ian Landsman]: active recordy really, but [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: just with a little more abstraction so you can [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: shove [Aaron]: it's like [Ian Landsman]: some [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: other [Aaron]: new, [Ian Landsman]: stuff in there. [Aaron]: it's like a new first class citizen that you can then centralize some stuff in.

[Aaron]: And the thing that [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I've always like, I think this Laravel actions package, which is very thorough and [Aaron]: very good. I don't think that was around back when I was doing this app that needs it. [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: And the place that I think I need it is like. when I do the same thing in multiple [Aaron]: places, like just like we were talking about with the rules array, [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: I'm doing the same thing, whether it's like an internal customer service person is [Aaron]: creating a property, you know, a home, an address is creating a property. I'm bulk [Aaron]: importing, you know, 500 properties. We're creating a property via webhook. We're [Aaron]: creating a property via background job. All of those things are like [Ian Landsman]: All right.

[Aaron]: creating a property record. and I ended up having to be like, ah, I gotta make sure [Aaron]: that I do the right thing four different [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: places, and it's like, ah, this would be good to centralize. So yeah, I do like the [Aaron]: concept of actions.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, it's really nice for that. It's like, that's the perfect use case. Just [Ian Landsman]: like, yep, I'm going to create it, but then I'm going to fire this event and [Ian Landsman]: I'm going to send an email and I want those three things to happen every single [Ian Landsman]: time I create this record. And you just always know that those things are [Ian Landsman]: happening and you can test it and all that. So, uh, that those I really like,

[Ian Landsman]: it's just so nice and clean and organized and all that. But, uh, Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: but I agree besides that, these other higher level things. And this is probably, [Ian Landsman]: I mean, I don't know, maybe this is like, both of us have this kind of [Ian Landsman]: background of coming from the less formal [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: side of computer science. So I do think there's something to that too. Although [Ian Landsman]: I definitely know a lot of people who learned on their own and are definitely [Ian Landsman]: more into these type of more advanced patterns and things, but. I don't [Ian Landsman]: know, I tend to be very practical in nature in these things and just be like, [Ian Landsman]: okay, [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: this is clean and easy to understand and somebody else could understand it. If I [Ian Landsman]: have to throw some random person in there, right? It's not gonna take [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: them too long to learn a whole new pattern and all this stuff that has all [Ian Landsman]: these different rules and things. It's like, nope, here's a PHP class and it [Ian Landsman]: does a couple things. And [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: I get that part already and we're good.

[Aaron]: Yeah, it's [Ian Landsman]: We [Aaron]: called [Ian Landsman]: can [Aaron]: Create [Ian Landsman]: get productive, [Aaron]: Post. You can figure [Ian Landsman]: right? [Aaron]: out what it does. [Ian Landsman]: Exactly, it's straightforward. [Aaron]: All right, well, good package, Wendell. I look forward to seeing how that will develop. [Ian Landsman]: All right, next on the list here. [Aaron]: You wanna talk YouTube? [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, sure. [Aaron]: PHP doesn't suck anymore.

[Ian Landsman]: doesn't we know that for sure we're here look at that's the short version [Ian Landsman]: of [Aaron]: It [Ian Landsman]: the video [Aaron]: does. Hahaha. Yeah. Thanks for tuning in. So I made a video. I made a video and it [Aaron]: covered like, [Ian Landsman]: Wow. Yeah. [Aaron]: yeah, right? [Ian Landsman]: I just, I [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: just [Aaron]: think [Ian Landsman]: saw [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: your views on it. [Aaron]: just opened [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: it. Yeah. It covered some of the changes from 2012 to now. And I picked 2012 because [Aaron]: it's like a long time ago and you know 5.4-ish era. And I just ran through like, hey, [Aaron]: did you guys know that we have traits and we have types and we have enums and we [Aaron]: have, you know, generators, that kind of stuff. It's funny because I thought it was [Aaron]: good. Like I thought it was a good video and I thought, ah, some people, some

[Aaron]: people will be interested. I think the title did a lot of work for me there [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: because I think I got people that were mad that I said that PHP doesn't suck anymore. [Aaron]: And I think I got people that were mad that suggested that I suggested that PHP [Aaron]: ever sucked. [Ian Landsman]: Alright. [Aaron]: And so like I got I got the people who were [Ian Landsman]: Both [Aaron]: on [Ian Landsman]: sides.

[Aaron]: my team and the people that were haters. I got them all to come and comment and everything. [Aaron]: So [Ian Landsman]: Yup. [Aaron]: I think I got lucky with that with that title there. But yeah, [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: always [Aaron]: hundred [Ian Landsman]: a big key. [Aaron]: thousand views. [Ian Landsman]: So congratulations. Amazing.

[Aaron]: Isn't [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: that [Ian Landsman]: mean, [Aaron]: the [Ian Landsman]: 5.7 [Aaron]: craziest thing you've ever [Ian Landsman]: thousand [Aaron]: heard? [Ian Landsman]: upvotes. Like that's [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: an incredible amount of upvotes. Like [Aaron]: It's crazy! [Ian Landsman]: I feel like that percentage is unusual for like five, six percent of the

[Ian Landsman]: viewers to vote at all. Um, [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: seems [Aaron]: let me [Ian Landsman]: unusually [Aaron]: see. I think [Ian Landsman]: high to me even. [Aaron]: I can see [Ian Landsman]: which is [Aaron]: the [Ian Landsman]: great. [Aaron]: percent. It's 98% thumbs up. So 5,700 likes and 98% [Ian Landsman]: Wow. [Aaron]: up votes versus down. [Ian Landsman]: That's amazing. [Aaron]: Crazy!

[Ian Landsman]: That's incredible. Yeah, and I thought the video was so good because it [Ian Landsman]: was just like, yeah, just jumped into every [Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: single thing that's changed, all the big stuff. And it's like, boom, here's [Ian Landsman]: 15 seconds on this, here's 15 seconds on this, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: and just kept the pace going really nice.

[Aaron]: Yeah, I'm really trying to find, I'm trying to find like the ideal YouTube format [Aaron]: because it is [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: very different than like a lot of the work I've done historically has been long form [Aaron]: educational, right? So I'll do [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: a Laracast course or teach accounting or teach databases and it's like, I know that [Aaron]: I have you for a couple hours and I'm going to tell you everything you need to know.

[Aaron]: YouTube, [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: you're fighting people clicking away or closing. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: And so... I'm trying to find that format, but this one worked. [Ian Landsman]: This also seems like one of these great ones that you could like break [Ian Landsman]: this up and throw it on Instagram and all the other like, [Aaron]: Oh, that's [Ian Landsman]: or on [Aaron]: a great [Ian Landsman]: YouTube [Aaron]: idea. [Ian Landsman]: shorts and whatever, right?

[Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Like here's like 15 seconds, like just create some new little intro. That's [Ian Landsman]: like a two second intro. And it's like, boom, here's, uh, another [Aaron]: Oh shoot, [Ian Landsman]: thing about [Aaron]: that's [Ian Landsman]: why [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: PHP [Aaron]: great idea. [Ian Landsman]: doesn't suck. We use all this. Um, Holy cow. It has 1100 comments. [Aaron]: Oh dude, [Ian Landsman]: That's insane. [Aaron]: so many comments.

[Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: And [Ian Landsman]: know. What do you [Aaron]: fully half of them are like, oh, PHP still sucks. [Ian Landsman]: Well, that's you [Aaron]: I'm [Ian Landsman]: too, [Aaron]: like, come [Ian Landsman]: man. [Aaron]: on. [Ian Landsman]: Like. [Aaron]: I don't care if you think that, but be more, like I'm not offended as a PHP developer,

[Aaron]: I'm offended as a terminally online commenter. Like make a better comment. This [Aaron]: comment [Ian Landsman]: Your comment [Aaron]: is stupid. [Ian Landsman]: sucks. [Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. [Ian Landsman]: I think that is kind of a known issue with the YouTube comments, unfortunately. [Ian Landsman]: I think the ratio of quality comments to [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: crap is not ideal.

[Aaron]: I do let my spice come through a little bit more in YouTube comments, like [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: on, [Ian Landsman]: I think it's fair. [Aaron]: you know, on Twitter, especially on Twitter main and mostly in Twitter replies [Aaron]: I'm like trying to be very gracious and kind to people on YouTube when they bring [Aaron]: in the barbs. I just, I barb them right back [Ian Landsman]: Hahaha [Aaron]: and it's kind of fun. It's kind of fun to be spicy over there.

[Ian Landsman]: Sort of like a private area down there, you know, it's like a it's [Aaron]: Oh [Ian Landsman]: like [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: oh, it's you're down [Aaron]: nobody's [Ian Landsman]: in the trenches [Aaron]: going down [Ian Landsman]: in there [Aaron]: there.

[Ian Landsman]: right I also love that in this video about PHP and technology and code like [Ian Landsman]: the number one I guess you pinned it but it's [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: like [Aaron]: pinned [Ian Landsman]: funny [Aaron]: it, [Ian Landsman]: that's [Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: pinned that the loop of comment about the movie loopers kind [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: of the top here It's so funny [Aaron]: I did a little review of what was happening in 2012 and the movie Looper was in theaters [Aaron]: and I was like, this is a good movie. And a lot of people, [Ian Landsman]: Hehehehehehe [Aaron]: a lot of people commented and said they can't trust me because I thought Looper [Aaron]: was good. So.

[Ian Landsman]: I am definitely on the side of like PHP was never bad. Like it's kind of [Ian Landsman]: funny because [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: as you were going through there, I'm like all this stuff is really cool. And [Ian Landsman]: for people who are, you know, need these things, whatever's great. But I [Ian Landsman]: was like the old way, like I'm like 95%. I was like the old way, that was [Ian Landsman]: fine. Like I kind of liked the way it was before too. Like that worked for

[Ian Landsman]: me. Right, right. [Aaron]: That's my secret is I never thought it sucked either and I still don't use a lot [Aaron]: of the features that I talked about, like [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: annotations or attributes and all this strict typing and stuff. It's like, I don't [Aaron]: really care about that and I love the PHP of yesteryear. And this is another thing, [Aaron]: this video is not for my traditional audience on Twitter. My audience [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: on Twitter is Laravel developers. This is basically... an outreach video and [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I feel like the audience on YouTube is so much bigger and the [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: algorithm does so much work on your behalf that it doesn't really matter who is [Aaron]: directly following you. You're making a video for kind of the masses and so it is [Aaron]: a little different for me because I'm thinking like, you know, I'm talking to all

[Aaron]: of our friends. and like, why would I make a video like this for all of our friends? [Aaron]: But [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: it's YouTube, it's not for our friends. So yeah, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: it's been interesting. [Ian Landsman]: I had a discussion with somebody kind of recently about this idea, too. And

[Ian Landsman]: I think that is like one of the keys of YouTube. Like the point of being [Ian Landsman]: on there in some ways is to reach this new group of people who are not [Aaron]: Yes. [Ian Landsman]: on traditional Laravel tech, your PHP channels of Twitter. You know, it's [Ian Landsman]: like, yeah, just everything. that silo is only a certain size and obviously [Ian Landsman]: Twitter [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: just has its own issues on top of all that. So it's like the YouTube is so [Ian Landsman]: much bigger than Twitter, way, [Aaron]: So [Ian Landsman]: way [Aaron]: much [Ian Landsman]: bigger. [Aaron]: bigger. [Ian Landsman]: And [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: the algorithm is I think pretty good at surfacing stuff. I mean, sometimes [Ian Landsman]: we're bad, but like overall, like I think it actually does a pretty good [Ian Landsman]: job of like [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: surfacing things people are interested in. And so yeah, this gives you [Ian Landsman]: that opportunity to reach out to other types of developers or unbelievably [Ian Landsman]: the PHP developers who are not, you know, on Twitter following Taylor and Laravel. [Aaron]: I know, [Ian Landsman]: Like [Aaron]: can [Ian Landsman]: if [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: you could [Aaron]: imagine? [Ian Landsman]: believe there are people out there like that. [Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: Um, [Aaron]: I know, [Ian Landsman]: it is remarkable, [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: but. [Aaron]: that is crazy to me, that there's a whole set of the community, the PHP community [Aaron]: that like is not on Twitter at all talking [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: about Folio and Volt all day long. They're like, I have [Ian Landsman]: I know. [Aaron]: no idea what you're talking about, man. Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: And [Aaron]: it's [Ian Landsman]: we see, [Aaron]: crazy.

[Ian Landsman]: I see this a lot in, I mean, this isn't even a great example, but on Lara [Ian Landsman]: jobs, we see it a lot. It's like, oh, there's [Aaron]: Mm. [Ian Landsman]: companies posting that are not like in the Laravel circle. And that's very [Ian Landsman]: Laravel, obviously specific. It's Lara jobs. But that's like one of the [Ian Landsman]: areas I'm trying to do more of even with Lara jobs, like reach out to other [Ian Landsman]: segments of the PHP [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: world since it's really like a PHP job board essentially. And because it's [Ian Landsman]: just this huge world of PHP. It's like when I look at other job boards, [Ian Landsman]: even the more general ones, like a dice.com or whatever, and there's like [Ian Landsman]: all these companies posting, you know, Laravel jobs even who [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: are like, do nothing in the Laravel world, like Disney or whatever, like [Ian Landsman]: Disney hasn't sponsored LaraCon or, um, they've never posted a job on Lara [Ian Landsman]: jobs, but they have like [Aaron]: Right. [Ian Landsman]: 10 jobs on dice.com for Laravel developers. [Aaron]: Yep. Hmm, [Ian Landsman]: It was this like whole [Aaron]: interesting.

[Ian Landsman]: world of PHP and Laravel that's people just going to work every day and. doing [Ian Landsman]: their job and leaving and they're not, you know, that closely following what's [Ian Landsman]: going on necessarily, um, in the kind of more close knit community that [Aaron]: just [Ian Landsman]: we tend [Aaron]: doing [Ian Landsman]: to operate [Aaron]: their job [Ian Landsman]: in. [Aaron]: and going [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: home. They're not [Ian Landsman]: Can [Aaron]: wired [Ian Landsman]: you believe [Aaron]: in. [Ian Landsman]: it? [Aaron]: I, [Ian Landsman]: That's [Aaron]: it sounds, [Ian Landsman]: crazy. They're not checking Twitter 24 hours a day for the latest [Aaron]: they must be [Ian Landsman]: updates. [Aaron]: happy. It couldn't [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: be me, no way. [Ian Landsman]: No way. I don't want any part of that.

[Aaron]: No way. The video also got, it got reacted to. Did you see [Ian Landsman]: Hmm. [Aaron]: this? [Ian Landsman]: No, I don't think I saw this. [Aaron]: There's a popular YouTuber slash Twitch streamer called [Ian Landsman]: Oh, [Aaron]: The [Ian Landsman]: wow. [Aaron]: PrimaGen. And he did a react video where he watches my video on stream and reacts [Aaron]: to [Ian Landsman]: Ha [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: ha ha.

[Aaron]: And I'm like, I'm, I'm so many levels deep into YouTube culture [Ian Landsman]: That is [Aaron]: now [Ian Landsman]: awesome, [Aaron]: that [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: he's [Ian Landsman]: is [Aaron]: doing that. [Ian Landsman]: great, [Aaron]: Um, [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: and it, so my video got a hundred thousand views. His video got a hundred thousand views. [Ian Landsman]: Wow. So your [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: video has kind of been seen 200,000 times [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: right there. [Aaron]: that's what I'm saying. So it was really, really good. So Primogen has a very strong [Aaron]: personality and a very strong [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: brand. um, and that turns a lot of people off, but he is an absolute, like he's [Aaron]: a wonderful, wonderful person. [Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: And he, uh, we actually DMs before he did the react video. Cause I feel like some [Aaron]: people seeing that would be like, I can't believe this guy just watched your video [Aaron]: and put himself in the corner and, you know, claim that [Ian Landsman]: Alright. [Aaron]: as his own content. Like one, that's not what he did. Like he's one of the smartest [Aaron]: people that I've seen on YouTube. And two, [Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: he asked me beforehand. And honestly, like he was doing me a favor because [Ian Landsman]: Right, [Aaron]: he's got like [Ian Landsman]: yeah. [Aaron]: a hundred and fifty thousand subscribers on YouTube [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: And then he's got a hundred thousand followers on Twitter And he's tweeting about [Aaron]: my video and it just it was like a whole day of just feeling like what is happening?

[Aaron]: Cuz you know I record these videos and then it takes me forever to edit and then [Aaron]: I finally upload it and I've already Lost all the like oh, this is a great video [Aaron]: It's like I gotta get this freaking thing off my plate [Ian Landsman]: All right. I'm sick [Aaron]: and then [Ian Landsman]: of this [Aaron]: it [Ian Landsman]: thing. [Aaron]: does well and it's like This [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: is [Ian Landsman]: that's [Aaron]: so cool!

[Ian Landsman]: awesome. It's so [Aaron]: So [Ian Landsman]: great [Aaron]: that [Ian Landsman]: when that [Aaron]: was [Ian Landsman]: happens. [Aaron]: a fun week, yeah. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that's a, and yeah, like what he's doing there, he's like adding a lot [Ian Landsman]: of value, so he's not just like reposting your video he's, [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: you know, you know, adding to it for his audience and what they want to see [Ian Landsman]: and, um, adding kind of value there, so, and [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: yeah, obviously [Aaron]: he's really [Ian Landsman]: exposing [Aaron]: good. Like [Ian Landsman]: you. [Aaron]: one of the things he's really good at is like, he knows so many languages. He's [Aaron]: an engineer at Netflix, and so he's worked [Ian Landsman]: Okay. [Aaron]: in a bunch of different places.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: He knows so many languages that he can look at all these things that I'm running [Aaron]: through. And he's like, oh, this is kind of how C Sharp does it. Oh, well in JavaScript, [Aaron]: it's done this way, and I hate that, and I really like that PHP does this. And he [Aaron]: can compare it across [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: a whole bunch of languages where I... I just can't do that. [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Like I've never worked in C sharp. I don't know what C sharp is. [Ian Landsman]: So is he not, he hasn't used PHP much then it sounds like? So he's [Aaron]: No, not since the era that [Ian Landsman]: the old [Aaron]: I talked [Ian Landsman]: days, [Aaron]: about. [Ian Landsman]: okay. [Aaron]: Yeah, and so [Ian Landsman]: Oh, so [Aaron]: it [Ian Landsman]: he's [Aaron]: was [Ian Landsman]: perfect [Aaron]: really cool [Ian Landsman]: for [Aaron]: because [Ian Landsman]: it, yeah.

[Aaron]: he started the video and he was like, I feel like he's talking exactly about me. [Aaron]: I came up [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: on PHP [Ian Landsman]: Ahem. [Aaron]: and then I've never used it. And so there were some things that he genuinely liked. [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: So I'm really happy about how that went. [Ian Landsman]: So what's the next video in this series? [Aaron]: Yeah, so I've got a few that I'm thinking of.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: Um, and I think there are, you know, I get a lot of the ideas for like, what's next [Aaron]: from the comments on, on these videos. [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: And, you know, I have a bunch of my own ideas, but it is nice to see what are people [Aaron]: continually, continually surfacing. Um, and so I think a few that I have in mind [Aaron]: is, um, I want to do for, for the super type heavy people, I want to do generics in [Aaron]: PHP. One, [Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: I got to learn how to even do that. But I [Ian Landsman]: Alright. [Aaron]: do want to show that like, we have further typing than is available in the language [Aaron]: itself. [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: Basically, and you know, you always have to think of like, what's the angle? And [Aaron]: I think the angle here is like, TypeScript for PHP almost, because it's like, [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: we're using PHP, but we're putting this layer on top and... [Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: in the same way that you're using JavaScript and you're putting a layer on top. So I got [Aaron]: to figure out like the catchy angle there. [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: And then I want to do [Ian Landsman]: Ahem. [Aaron]: I want to do a Laravel is faster than next JS video. [Ian Landsman]: Ooh, that'll be a good one. [Aaron]: I know spicy [Ian Landsman]: That's [Aaron]: right.

[Ian Landsman]: a good one. Yeah, that's [Aaron]: So [Ian Landsman]: a [Aaron]: I [Ian Landsman]: spicy [Aaron]: got to figure [Ian Landsman]: one. [Aaron]: out I'm having Steve just Steve King on Twitter. [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm [Aaron]: Steve McDougall I think is his name but his handles just Steve King. He's going

[Aaron]: to help me set up a Docker. container. I don't know anything about Docker. He's going [Aaron]: to help me set up a Docker container that has the Next.js app and a Laravel app [Aaron]: with Octane. And I'm going [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: to load test and see if the Laravel one is faster. I super hope that it is because [Aaron]: that would be [Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha. [Aaron]: an amazing video that would make a lot of Next fans really mad and a lot of Laravel

[Aaron]: people really happy. And then the last one I have on actually two more. I've got Livewire [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: SPA mode. So like I want to show that you can create a single page app with just [Aaron]: PHP, obviously it's Livewire JavaScript, but you know, the angle is SBA with PHP and [Aaron]: then I'm having Boris Lepkin help me set up a repo where I can do end to end strict [Aaron]: typing with Laravel inertia and view. [Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: And I can have all of that. like TypeScript all the way through. Cause people are [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: always like, well, I'd never switched to PHP because I love type end to end type [Aaron]: safety. And [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: like one, that's a red herring. That's dumb. That's a bad reason to stay with JavaScript [Aaron]: on the back end. And two, you can have that. You can have that in Laravel. So those

[Aaron]: are my videos. I got to think of catchy angles and spicy titles and stuff. [Ian Landsman]: I like it. I really liked the Livewire one too. I feel like Livewire is part [Ian Landsman]: of it is it's like a pretty complicated thing to explain, you know, cause [Ian Landsman]: it's like this, it's just not like anything else. You know, it's like, it's [Ian Landsman]: not [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: like React. It's not like Vue, like it does what they do in the end, but it's

[Ian Landsman]: nothing like them and how you use it. So like, I do feel like it's just any [Ian Landsman]: kind of exposure or ways to like, get people [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: to understand how valuable it is and how faster it can make you. once you [Ian Landsman]: really kind of understand what it's trying to do is, uh, is would be really [Ian Landsman]: great. So again, reach that other, that other audience that's not in the

[Ian Landsman]: super core. That's like, oh yeah, we know already about livewire.larribelle.com [Aaron]: Exactly. [Ian Landsman]: and it's up there in version [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: three and blah, blah. Like, and I think too, it's kind of become, I feel [Ian Landsman]: like version three is like, it's ready for prime time now. So I'd be great [Ian Landsman]: to see more people making videos and all that stuff about it too, just because

[Ian Landsman]: it's kind of matured to this level where it's really ready to take on. You [Aaron]: Yep, [Ian Landsman]: know, serious, [Aaron]: I agree. [Ian Landsman]: serious work, quote unquote. [Aaron]: Yeah, and I think with the version three release, they did a lot of stuff that [Aaron]: makes it more usable. Like this whole SPA mode thing is really cool. And Jason [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: Beggs did a tutorial slash demo for Laravel News showing like a podcast player.

[Aaron]: And I think the whole shtick is like, it keeps playing even when you switch pages, [Aaron]: which [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: is like the hallmark of SPA thing, SPA demo. And so I may just use that. Um, as [Aaron]: my, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: as my example, because yeah, I feel like even, even in LiveWire land, like you've [Aaron]: got Hotwire, you've got Stimulus, you've got Phoenix live view, you've got HTMX, all

[Aaron]: of those are kind of like HTML over the wire domdiffing. Um, [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: but I think LiveWire is even, I would say better, but definitely different than all [Aaron]: of those in that one, PHP dies. Like you have to build the whole universe on every [Aaron]: request. [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: And so like with Ruby, you've got this server that's continually running, and are [Aaron]: you keeping state around back there? I don't super know, but with LiveWire, it's

[Aaron]: like, no, we gotta send everything back and forth all the time. And one of the [Aaron]: complaints about LiveWire on the video that I did was like, oh, so how many connections [Aaron]: do you have to keep open all the time to send the data back and forth? And you're [Aaron]: like, none. [Ian Landsman]: Right? [Aaron]: You don't leave stuff open with PHP. Everything dies, and you recreate the universe [Aaron]: every time.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: So I do think there's a fundamental disparity between what people think is happening [Aaron]: and what is actually happening. [Ian Landsman]: Right. And just like that, that's even like, um, it's PHP's way of doing it has [Ian Landsman]: become more and more viable over time, right? It's like, oh, that was kind [Ian Landsman]: of a stupid way to do it. Maybe you can make the case way back in the day because

[Ian Landsman]: like the computers weren't that fast and the network wasn't that fast. And [Ian Landsman]: like you're sending stuff back and forth and you're setting up the whole world [Ian Landsman]: every time and everything. But now it's like everything's so fast. It's like, [Ian Landsman]: yeah, and it's great. I could just reset it up every time. And that does [Ian Landsman]: solve a lot of, you know, it creates other problems, but it does solve a

[Ian Landsman]: nice set of problems too. And. Yeah, yeah, how LiveWire does all that. I mean, [Ian Landsman]: the stuff LiveWire does to make this all work is sort of nuts. But, uh, it's [Ian Landsman]: so nice to rebuild everything. So now it's like really, you know, cause when [Ian Landsman]: you first build something the first time, you don't really understand what

[Ian Landsman]: it's even going to be. And to rebuild it with that understanding, I think [Ian Landsman]: has made a ton of really huge improvements and how it all works. [Aaron]: Yeah, and on that PHP lifecycle model, we got really lucky that PHP is basically tailor-made [Aaron]: for serverless environments. Because it's like, [Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: it runs one thing stateless, and then it dies. [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: And it's [Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: like, [Ian Landsman]: It's perfect for [Aaron]: oh, [Ian Landsman]: serverless. Yup. [Aaron]: you're describing PHP. Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: It was a big change. I started in, um, cold fusion. And ColdFusion had a server [Ian Landsman]: which you could store state in there and other stuff. [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: You could do all kinds of things. And then I started doing some PHP and I was [Ian Landsman]: like, Oh, like this doesn't do anything at all for me. [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: And then also it was like pre frameworks. Essentially there was a couple [Ian Landsman]: of like very rudimentary frameworks. And so it was like, there's nothing at all [Ian Landsman]: here, but okay, we'll do this. And, uh, yeah, but now it's obviously with [Ian Landsman]: Laravel and just the whole state of everything that's going on with servers.

[Ian Landsman]: It's, uh, it's so much nicer. And. Um, and yes, the hosting situation and [Ian Landsman]: server lists [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: and all the options we have now changes all that a lot. Um, but yeah, and [Ian Landsman]: even live wire, like what he's done in version three, where it's like bundling [Ian Landsman]: requests and things like that. So like even [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: wire concerns that, you know, you weren't holding them open, but it was having

[Ian Landsman]: to call back and forth a lot. If you had a bunch of components and things [Ian Landsman]: like now it's just all bundled together, so that's all way more efficient [Ian Landsman]: and yeah, it's, it's really pretty advanced now. [Aaron]: Yeah. Good job, Caleb. Way to go. [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, love Caleb. He's the man. [Aaron]: Well, we've been mostly technical. Do you wanna go back to non-technical for a [Aaron]: second? [Ian Landsman]: Sure, sure.

[Aaron]: We give [Ian Landsman]: What [Aaron]: the [Ian Landsman]: do [Aaron]: technical [Ian Landsman]: you got for me? [Aaron]: people a break. Are you hiring someone to create family photo books? [Ian Landsman]: Family photo books. Yes. So this is [Aaron]: Okay [Ian Landsman]: my [Aaron]: so I saw this on Twitter and I thought [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: Ian is a galaxy brain. Like [Ian Landsman]: Right. [Aaron]: I knew you were like a planet brain but this is galaxy brain.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. So this is the thing I, I used to be super into photography and I've [Ian Landsman]: gotten, I've dialed it back a little bit here, especially as the kids have [Ian Landsman]: gotten older and they're just like, get that camera out of my face, you know, [Ian Landsman]: but whatever. When they're little, like, it's awesome. Like, so I'd be, I'd always [Ian Landsman]: have the fancy camera. I'm taking pictures of the kids. And then I'm taking pictures

[Ian Landsman]: of just other sorts of things, nature and whatnot. And then, um, So I'd always [Ian Landsman]: make these photo books. I'd have all these photos, I'd spend the time,

[Ian Landsman]: I'd get them all edited, all nice, and make books, and blah, blah. But then [Ian Landsman]: just recently, kids are bigger, like we talked about at the beginning, it's [Ian Landsman]: just like they have so much stuff going on, they're running around all [Ian Landsman]: the time, work's busy, doing podcasts, like all this [Aaron]: Hehehehe

[Ian Landsman]: stuff. There's just not time to make the photo books. And it's kind of funny, [Ian Landsman]: so we did this, the vacation I'm on right now with the people I'm on right [Ian Landsman]: now, we did this a year ago to a different place. And I was like, all right, [Ian Landsman]: I'll make the photo book. [Aaron]: Hehehe [Ian Landsman]: And I did not, I still have not done the photo book. The photo book is [Ian Landsman]: not done from a year ago.

[Aaron]: You [Ian Landsman]: We [Aaron]: never, [Ian Landsman]: are now [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: on the [Aaron]: never [Ian Landsman]: second [Aaron]: volunteer. [Ian Landsman]: vacation. [Aaron]: You never volunteer for that kind of stuff. [Ian Landsman]: So now we're on the second vacation. I still haven't done the photo book from the [Ian Landsman]: first vacation. And so I have, you know, I have other trips and things that

[Ian Landsman]: I would want to do little books for. Um, I just have this huge backlog of photo [Ian Landsman]: books. So yeah, it just struck me one day, like a week or two back there. [Ian Landsman]: And I was like, I can outsource the creation of these photo books. Like I'm [Ian Landsman]: not [Aaron]: Yes! [Ian Landsman]: doing anything. Especially because these are not like at this point more like

[Ian Landsman]: artistic photos where I felt like Back in the day. I was more like creating [Ian Landsman]: the art like I [Aaron]: Sure. [Ian Landsman]: might have a black and white photo of a certain scene And like I want it

[Ian Landsman]: to be a certain way. This is like me on my iphone snapping pictures [Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: like just pick the smileiest one and Edit it up to fit in the right box [Ian Landsman]: in the page and throw that stuff together and make me a photo book so it seems [Ian Landsman]: like pretty much anybody could handle this like um without and it'll be fine, [Ian Landsman]: right? It'll be fine. It'll be a nice little photo book to have on the

[Ian Landsman]: shelf. And the kids always love the photo books. Like we have this big pile [Ian Landsman]: of photo books from all of our trips and they go through them and whatever. [Ian Landsman]: So that's my plan. I don't know. I did [Aaron]: Has [Ian Landsman]: a little [Aaron]: it worked? [Ian Landsman]: bit of research, [Aaron]: So you said it [Ian Landsman]: though [Aaron]: sounds [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: like [Ian Landsman]: haven't done [Aaron]: anybody [Ian Landsman]: it.

[Aaron]: can do it. Has anybody been able to do it? [Ian Landsman]: Nobody's done it yet. So I've [Aaron]: Where [Ian Landsman]: looked [Aaron]: are [Ian Landsman]: through, [Aaron]: you looking? [Ian Landsman]: I don't know. So since that tweet where I said that, I have not really [Ian Landsman]: had time to then delve too much farther. I went into Upwork. There are people [Ian Landsman]: who sort of claim to do it, but then it's a little bit not clear what they

[Ian Landsman]: actually are providing. There's some who are doing it like only for weddings, [Ian Landsman]: which is not [Aaron]: Mmm, [Ian Landsman]: really the right thing because they're gonna wanna [Aaron]: too expensive, [Ian Landsman]: charge a ton [Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: of money and do like a fancy book, which is not what this is. So I'm. If [Ian Landsman]: anybody out there knows of, um, either a service that does this or even [Ian Landsman]: just like photo editing services or things like that, cause I obviously there's [Ian Landsman]: like upwork, but I didn't love the [Aaron]: Or like [Ian Landsman]: options [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: there.

[Aaron]: stay at home parent who knows how to use [Ian Landsman]: I [Aaron]: a [Ian Landsman]: mean, [Aaron]: computer. [Ian Landsman]: that would be [Aaron]: That's [Ian Landsman]: fine [Aaron]: basically [Ian Landsman]: too. [Aaron]: what [Ian Landsman]: Like [Aaron]: you need. [Ian Landsman]: if you're out there and just wanna do this for me, like I'm also totally [Ian Landsman]: fine with that. Like we can. [Aaron]: Yeah, is your husband or wife a functioning adult and can use a computer?

[Ian Landsman]: and wants to [Aaron]: Contact [Ian Landsman]: do this. Yeah. [Aaron]: Ian. [Ian Landsman]: I mean, that's totally, I'm totally on board with that. Maybe this is the [Ian Landsman]: SaaS we should be building. Maybe that's what'll come out of this podcast. [Ian Landsman]: We'll build the [Aaron]: Yeah, [Ian Landsman]: photo book creation service SaaS app. But, right. [Aaron]: yeah. Yeah, we could make tens of dollars that way, [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: I think. Ha ha ha.

[Ian Landsman]: But it's like, if there was just like a site and I don't want to build [Ian Landsman]: this, but if it was just like a service that does this, that's like a hundred [Ian Landsman]: bucks a book, like they [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: would just already have like three books for me, like just done. even 150 [Ian Landsman]: bucks [Aaron]: I agree. [Ian Landsman]: a book, like whatever. Like [Aaron]: I fully agree.

[Ian Landsman]: I would just pay the money. I don't wanna think about it. I wanna upload [Ian Landsman]: my thousand pictures from my trip to Europe and my 200 pictures from the [Ian Landsman]: last vacation we all had. And I just wanna pay somebody 100, 200 bucks even, [Ian Landsman]: and just be like, oh, and a book shows up on my doorstep and it's done, [Ian Landsman]: it's great. So yeah, if anybody knows about that service already existing or

[Ian Landsman]: wants to do it, let me know. And then we'll see how that goes. But. Otherwise [Ian Landsman]: I do plan after vacation on getting, uh, on making that happen. And now [Ian Landsman]: since it's in the podcast, it's going to have to happen. So at least we will [Ian Landsman]: try it. We will have results. We could [Aaron]: Yeah, if [Ian Landsman]: talk [Aaron]: you're [Ian Landsman]: about [Aaron]: listening [Ian Landsman]: the results.

[Aaron]: to this, if you're listening to this and it's August of 2024, make sure you send [Aaron]: us an email to see if Ian ever got his vacation book made. So check in with us [Aaron]: in one year to make sure Ian [Ian Landsman]: Oh, [Aaron]: got [Ian Landsman]: yeah, [Aaron]: his book made. [Ian Landsman]: August 2025, we'll be doing this podcast. I'll be like, up. I'm on vacation [Ian Landsman]: with everybody again. Now I'm two vacation books behind.

[Aaron]: Yeah. So I hired somebody a while back to do 3D rendering of, I was going to add a [Aaron]: back deck to connect the shed quarters, my old studio to my house. And there's [Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm. [Aaron]: this giant gap in the middle. And I hired somebody on, I think it was Upwork? No, [Aaron]: I think it was Fiverr actually.

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm. [Aaron]: I took a bunch of pictures, did a few dimensions, and hired an outdoor deck designer [Aaron]: in Turkey to do 3D renderings of what a deck could [Ian Landsman]: Holy cow. [Aaron]: look like. Yeah, and it was like $65. And [Ian Landsman]: Wow. [Aaron]: so then, was it perfect? No, but I could then go to a local contractor and instead [Aaron]: of like... trying to explain something to someone who's barely listening to me, [Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: I could show him a picture and be like, I basically want [Ian Landsman]: Build [Aaron]: this. [Ian Landsman]: this. [Aaron]: Yeah. And he's like, okay, I could build that. And I thought that is a total like, [Aaron]: that's a totally good use of money to spend $65 to be able to communicate clearly [Aaron]: what I want. And I went back and forth [Ian Landsman]: That [Aaron]: with [Ian Landsman]: was [Aaron]: the guy [Ian Landsman]: great.

[Aaron]: on a few revisions, because on the first one, he did some weird stuff with pergolas. [Aaron]: And I was like, I don't want that, like remove [Ian Landsman]: Mm. [Aaron]: that change this. And then I had the thing to show the guy. And so finding these [Aaron]: things that you can outsource that you don't really think you can [Ian Landsman]: I just love [Aaron]: outsource, [Ian Landsman]: outsourcing. [Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I gotta get better about that. I'm really pretty bad about outsourcing [Ian Landsman]: and stuff like that. And it's like, I should just outsource this. Why am [Ian Landsman]: I not outsourcing more stuff? It's like, we actually found this service here [Ian Landsman]: kind of along those lines where it's like, they will come and set up. So you [Ian Landsman]: can't leave like a tent or anything on the beach overnight. [Aaron]: Oh, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: And there's like 13 of us and whatever, and the kids and whatever, son and [Ian Landsman]: all that stuff. So we kinda want a tent. So they just come every day and [Ian Landsman]: they set [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: up the tent. and they bring chairs and they put it out there. And then [Ian Landsman]: every night they come and they take down a tent and they take away the chairs

[Ian Landsman]: and they just do it every night. And it's fabulous. And that also led me to [Ian Landsman]: the discovery of another app which I'm just gonna tell everybody about as [Ian Landsman]: public service called Splitwise. Have you ever used Splitwise? [Aaron]: live, live and die by Splitwise. [Ian Landsman]: You love the Splitwise, I didn't even [Aaron]: Love, [Ian Landsman]: know about Splitwise. [Aaron]: love [Ian Landsman]: It's unbelievable.

[Aaron]: Splitwise. [Ian Landsman]: Everything [Aaron]: I've [Ian Landsman]: you buy [Aaron]: been [Ian Landsman]: is. [Aaron]: using Splitwise since 2009. It's amazing, [Ian Landsman]: Wow, is [Aaron]: yes. [Ian Landsman]: it around that long? I didn't [Aaron]: It [Ian Landsman]: even [Aaron]: is, [Ian Landsman]: know that. [Aaron]: yes. [Ian Landsman]: Wow. So maybe everybody knows about this already, but Splitwise lets you

[Ian Landsman]: just split bills with other people. And like, so you can just, every time [Ian Landsman]: you buy something, you throw it in Splitwise and it'll handle like, like [Ian Landsman]: in our case, we're pretty much dividing everything by thirds, just divides [Ian Landsman]: it by thirds. And then at the end it tracks who owes who what and you can

[Ian Landsman]: settle up and that's it. And... It's unbelievable. This is like one of the [Ian Landsman]: first [Aaron]: Okay, [Ian Landsman]: mobile apps that's blown my mind in a while. [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: Like, it's like, oh, this is fabulous. [Aaron]: we gotta talk splitwise. So, splitwise is truly one of the OG apps that does the thing

[Aaron]: it's supposed to do and doesn't muck it up. And so what I love about splitwise, [Aaron]: so we do these yearly trips, all of our guy friends from college, and what I love [Aaron]: about splitwise is, As long as you accurately represent the truth in Splitwise,

[Aaron]: everything comes out just fine. So what I mean is, you can say like, okay, I, [Aaron]: Aaron, I'm going to the grocery store for, you know, these 10 guys for the weekend [Aaron]: and I'm going to spend, you know, $1,000 to buy all the groceries for this weekend, [Aaron]: right? I put $1,000 into Splitwise and I say split evenly. And it just like, it

[Aaron]: splits it evenly. Okay. Whatever, that seems normal, right? But then let's say I get [Aaron]: there early and I go to dinner with four other guys and we go out for pizza, right? [Aaron]: And one guy pays for all the pizza. And he says, okay, I, let's say Andrew, paid [Aaron]: for all the pizza, but only these five people were there. So I'm gonna split it between [Aaron]: these five people. And then let's say there are three people on the trip that don't

[Aaron]: drink, so we split the alcohol between seven people. And then let's say I buy Ian [Aaron]: lunch, so it's just like a one-on-one transaction. As long as you put all of that [Aaron]: into Splitwise and you say there's a tab to say simplify debt. So like if I owe [Aaron]: Ian $5 and Ian owes Andrew $5, I'm just gonna pay Andrew and Splitwise will handle [Aaron]: that for you. At the end, it just comes out to be like, you put everything in there

[Aaron]: and it just says, Aaron, you owe Andrew $42. And you're like, all right, sounds like. [Aaron]: Sounds fine to me, and it takes into account everything you paid for, everything [Aaron]: you participated in, and like it doesn't add you to things that you weren't a part of, [Aaron]: and at the end you pay one single person and then you move on about your day. It's the [Aaron]: best thing in [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: the world. [Ian Landsman]: totally mind blowing, mind [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: blowing. It's so good. Yes, you said it perfectly. Like it doesn't muck [Ian Landsman]: it up. It's like, it does this. It's not trying to sell me a bunch of other [Ian Landsman]: stuff while I'm in there adding, you know, these entries. It's just like, nope, [Ian Landsman]: add your entries at the top. It's got like this running total. It's like, [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: you've loaned out a thousand dollars so far.

[Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: And it's like, yes, I'm making money on this vacation. [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: People are gonna pay me a thousand dollars at the end of this vacation. It's so [Ian Landsman]: great. [Aaron]: Yep, [Ian Landsman]: Everything [Aaron]: yeah, and [Ian Landsman]: costs [Aaron]: that's [Ian Landsman]: a third less.

[Aaron]: That's great because then you're at the next dinner and you can be like well it [Aaron]: looks like It looks like I'm a thousand dollars behind so somebody else should pay [Aaron]: for dinner So then at the end of the trip, you know, you're as close to even as [Aaron]: possible And so your person-to-person [Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: transactions are a lot smaller. Yeah, it's oh man [Ian Landsman]: It [Aaron]: What [Ian Landsman]: hooks [Aaron]: a what [Ian Landsman]: into [Aaron]: an [Ian Landsman]: Venmo. [Aaron]: unexpected surprise to [Ian Landsman]: Yeah, [Aaron]: talk about [Ian Landsman]: like, [Aaron]: split wise [Ian Landsman]: oh, it's so good. It just, just to have a uni-tasker app like that, that just

[Ian Landsman]: is executed so perfectly. That's something I never built either. I always have [Ian Landsman]: these like big complicated things. [Aaron]: I know. [Ian Landsman]: Just a nice uni-tasker app. It just does, it just down in the little nitty [Ian Landsman]: gritty details of that single task so deeply. Oh, just excellent. Love [Aaron]: I'm pulling [Ian Landsman]: it.

[Aaron]: up my Splitwise right now so I can see [Ian Landsman]: Oh, [Aaron]: all [Ian Landsman]: there [Aaron]: the groups [Ian Landsman]: you go. Yup. [Aaron]: that I have. [Ian Landsman]: Oh wow, you have [Aaron]: I've [Ian Landsman]: a bunch [Aaron]: got, [Ian Landsman]: of different groups. That's interesting. [Aaron]: oh yeah, I've got, I don't know if the camera [Ian Landsman]: Oh wow, [Aaron]: will pick it up.

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, OG [Aaron]: So [Ian Landsman]: status [Aaron]: we've got [Ian Landsman]: here. [Aaron]: SF15, 16, 17, those are all the guide trips. And then we've got a Florida trip, we've [Aaron]: got a 30th birthday trip, we've got a wedding weekend. Yeah, it's, I love [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: it. [Ian Landsman]: a revolution. [Aaron]: It's so great. [Ian Landsman]: My mind has been totally blown. Like, yeah, none of us in our group really

[Ian Landsman]: knew about it. So my cousin went to a bachelor party. [Aaron]: Mm-hmm [Ian Landsman]: Like six months ago or something. And like, they just did it where the one guy [Ian Landsman]: paid for everything. Nobody paid [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: for anything though. The leader paid for every single transaction. You know, [Ian Landsman]: he got all the points, which I think was probably part of his [Aaron]: Yep. [Ian Landsman]: goal, which is great. [Aaron]: That guy.

[Ian Landsman]: And then, [Aaron]: That [Ian Landsman]: um, [Aaron]: freaking [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: guy. [Ian Landsman]: guy, and then, uh, And then they just split it up and they just all paid [Ian Landsman]: him the amounts they [Aaron]: Mm-hmm. [Ian Landsman]: owed. And that was it. It was like so easy. So then we use it for this and

[Ian Landsman]: we're all blown away. It's, it's [Aaron]: And [Ian Landsman]: so [Aaron]: you can [Ian Landsman]: incredibly [Aaron]: attach pictures [Ian Landsman]: nice. [Aaron]: of a receipt [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. [Aaron]: and [Ian Landsman]: I mean, [Aaron]: you can, [Ian Landsman]: we're not [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: doing [Aaron]: can [Ian Landsman]: that [Aaron]: do, [Ian Landsman]: because we don't care, but like, [Aaron]: yeah, [Ian Landsman]: yeah, [Aaron]: we don't care.

[Ian Landsman]: you could do that for the bigger group or whatever. [Aaron]: Yeah. And you can do crazy splitting things like you can split it evenly. You can [Aaron]: split it by percent. You can split it by [Ian Landsman]: Alright. [Aaron]: portion. So you can be like, we bought, [Ian Landsman]: Oh. [Aaron]: we [Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha. [Aaron]: bought 15 things and actually five of the things were for this one guy and the

[Aaron]: other 10 were for the other 10 people. And you can [Ian Landsman]: Bye. [Aaron]: say this guy gets five units of proportion [Ian Landsman]: of [Aaron]: and this [Ian Landsman]: the... [Aaron]: everyone else gets one unit. It's [Ian Landsman]: Wow. [Aaron]: like, Why would you ever need that? I have no idea, but it's so cool.

[Ian Landsman]: I have used one so far. We've been doing pretty much everything evenly, but [Ian Landsman]: there has been one where it's like, yeah, me and my brother just did something. [Ian Landsman]: My cousin's family wasn't involved. So it's like, oh, that is just me and him. [Ian Landsman]: And it's like now it's split in half between the two of us and not, um, [Ian Landsman]: with him in it. And it's like the tally all changes and [Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: just blown away. Yeah. I dunno. I feel like most of the hype around mobile [Ian Landsman]: apps in general, like my mobile app usage is almost entirely like native Apple [Ian Landsman]: apps and like Twitter and maybe like one or two other things and that's it. [Ian Landsman]: And. But. This is one of those ones that's like, yes, this is, this is making

[Ian Landsman]: it in. This is staying on the phone, uh, because it's just so damn useful [Ian Landsman]: in those couple times a year where you need to do this kind of thing. [Aaron]: What a gem. [Ian Landsman]: So good. [Aaron]: A [Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Look at [Aaron]: hidden [Ian Landsman]: that. [Aaron]: gem there at the end [Ian Landsman]: Kit. [Aaron]: of the pod. That's why you always stick around, folks.

[Ian Landsman]: Think about this, on this one trip, Waffle House and Splitwise, I've discovered [Aaron]: You... [Ian Landsman]: these two things. [Aaron]: Your [Ian Landsman]: What [Aaron]: life, [Ian Landsman]: a trip. [Aaron]: your life is... And I discovered trucks! You can just put a truck on a beach! [Ian Landsman]: Hey, Chuck [Aaron]: It's [Ian Landsman]: on [Aaron]: amazing! [Ian Landsman]: a beach. We're learning.

[Aaron]: Yes, [Ian Landsman]: This is [Aaron]: this [Ian Landsman]: unbelievable. [Aaron]: is why we do this. [Ian Landsman]: Sharing our knowledge. [Aaron]: That's right. Alright, anything else? Where do people find us? [Ian Landsman]: man, they find us at mostlytechnical.com and on YouTube. Check out the YouTube, the [Ian Landsman]: YouTube gets, it's like it's building up. I'm [Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: sort of interested about the YouTube growth eventually. It's nice to be [Ian Landsman]: able to see how many subscribers you have because podcasts, you know, [Aaron]: Yeah. [Ian Landsman]: you can't really tell for sure, but, and then we're at MostlyTechnicalPod on [Ian Landsman]: Twitter, I believe. So check that out. We should probably get [Aaron]: If [Ian Landsman]: these things down. [Aaron]: you [Ian Landsman]: You're [Aaron]: can find us, [Ian Landsman]: right.

[Aaron]: find us. If not, we'll see you [Ian Landsman]: It's [Aaron]: next [Ian Landsman]: all linked. [Aaron]: time. [Ian Landsman]: Go to the show notes. Thanks. [Aaron]: All right, talk to you later, Ian. [Ian Landsman]: Bye.