#47 Judith Dada and Hanno Renner: 11 years later - on what makes CDTM special

to record a session between the two of us because we actually studied in the same class in CTM. In spring twenty fourteen, eleven years ago, we basically shared a bench and took the first classes together. And so we wanted to take some time today to reminisce. Think about the past, think about all the ways in which CDTM has shaped us and the people who we are today, all the ways in which we're grateful to CDTM, and also what we wish and hope for CDTM going forward.

What you'll hopefully get out is many more reasons to apply to study at the center, as well as just some under-the-hood insight looks into what it means to be a student at CTM and looking back many years after.

And also social science of the internet. So basically a mix of data science and social science at Oxford. And then afterwards worked in tech for a decade. The vast majority of that I've actually spent investing. So I used to run a venture firm called La Familia. It sounds like the Sicilia Mafia, but it was just a plain vanilla early stage venture capital fund. We invested in close to a hundred.

companies around the world. I was lucky enough to be a side hustle and partner to many of the most amazing entrepreneurs, was lucky enough to also partner with Hanno in his journey of building Personio, and I'm now a general partner at Visionaries Club. An early stage fund based in Berlin and London, investing into the strongest breakout talent that we find in the European industry right now. Hanno, why don't you say a couple of words about yourself?

sit at different places, but also including in Munich for my masters next to C D T M and then spent a few times abroad in New Zealand and in New York also studying and getting some international spirit in. And then following the university or literally towards the end of my studies at C D T M

started Personio. We can talk a bit more about how the CTM influenced that, which spoiler, it was in a big way, but started Personio since in twenty twenty fifteen, late twenty fifteen is around ten years ago now. And have since uh Personio from a small startup in literally started in some of the C DM rooms to a company of a thousand eight hundred people based all across.

Europe with serving fifteen thousand customers with a an HR platform and payroll solution that we're continuing scaling and expanding and especially with AI have some very exciting things we can do here in the future as well.

But so far myself, why don't we go back to C D T M and that later live role in our life?

So yeah, it was a very formative year for all of us. We were 24 students back in the day and I just looked at a post from our dear classmate Seba, Sebastian Schall, the founder of Luminovo, where he gave his recap on what came of that class or what became of that class over many years. And he basically said, 14, spring 14, just 25 students alone minted two unicorns, eight investor-backed startups, three bootstrap companies.

three failed attempts at companies and one big regret that he has, which is not investing in every single classmate. And I can a hundred percent echo him on that. I think our class was just, I don't know what was in the water. I think everyone was so inspiring. Everyone was so Crazy. So maybe let's recount what led us both to City TM. What was the first time that you heard about CDTM? What led you to apply to C DM? What was that all like?

worked out so well. I do think C D T M had a massive impact on this and for myself I can definitely say C D T M has changed my life. I don't think without C C D M I would have probably never founded a company. It was just not an option, not something I could have

grasped before I thought as an opportunity that you can just choose as a career path, which you can definitely very much, even if you're like myself, have two two parents that are teachers. But also all my co-founders were from C DM, some of our early investors were from C DM. And also on the personal side, a big number of my closest friends, including Judith here across from myself, are City Tem. So Citem has a massive impact on my life, which I

didn't really know at the time when I applied for sure, but I realized that it's something interesting. I didn't I found I stumbled across this video. I don't even know how I found it, but I stumbled across the video from that uh one of the classes at a time has m made online and and that's why I was sort of first have heard about it and it sounded interesting but also didn't really understand first that it was a separate study program and that it

that it but it was tied to LMUT. So it was a little bit confusing for me at first. I don't think it was nearly as well known as it is today. But but it was definitely intrigued by both the diversity of the people there and also that entrepreneurial spirit, even though I didn't know much about entrepreneurship at the time, but that sort of drew me towards it and I think just made me apply in the first place. And one thing that's also a fun factor I did

about to move to Munich for my masters and then got rejected but back then it wasn't a big deal for me. But then I when I was in Munich and I went to a few events and learnt more about C Tem I was became so obsessed of really wanting to be part of it and tried another time and I still remember the day when the the I received my email of being accepted and how happy I was about that and so I didn't expect knew what to expect but I definitely knew felt this was a big

Back in school, back in high school, I was running the student magazine and like in the choir and the math club and whatever, and like at C D T M or at uh university later on, I was also leading the student magazine, and I wanted to take it from an offline print version to an online version. And like for an online version, I had to deal with content management systems and HTML. And I was like, what is this? Like way in over my head. And so I spoke to some friends about it.

And then Milo Schwzech, who's now also a founder of a successful AI company called Deep Set, he was in the same scholarship program that I was in and I told him about I wanted to learn about technology to be able to do more with the student magazine and he said You should check out CTM because all the computers students and all the people who understand tech are there and I think that's the right program for you, Judith. And so that is the first time I heard about CTM. I googled it later.

and then read through the study program. And for those of you who still don't know CTM, it's basically an additional, what they call it honors degree. It's basically an additional degree. It's not a full degree that you do in parallel to your bachelor or master studies.

And it's basically split into three phases. In the beginning it's the trend research phase, then it's managing product development and then it's eLab. And so it's basically three different courses that teach you about innovation, about

starting or taking an innovative idea and actually making something with it in a very practical, hands-on way. It does skew on entrepreneurship, but it's actually not an entrepreneurship program. It basically just teaches curious people from different study subjects. to work together in interdisciplinary classes in a very practical hands on way.

And then in the end, many of those people tend to become entrepreneurs or do entrepreneurial things in their lives in different shapes and forms. And basically long story short, that's how I have learned about C D T M. I applied, got in and was weighing over my head and it brings me back to that first day.

I remember walking into the center. I don't even think I think it was already in Maastraße near Happenhof. I was walking in and we had this this circle of chairs, I think, and we were all sitting there and introducing ourselves. and I was almost shitting my pants. I was so nervous because I knew that I was probably gonna be like the bird of paradise in between all these nerdy tech geniuses.

And yeah, I still remember it to this day. I was like super nervous. My voice was shaking when I was introducing myself. And I thought everyone's background sounded so incredibly impressive. And yeah, that was a great first day full of tension. But then I think just a few minutes later, like after the initial tension and the nervousness of the introductions.

Everyone was like chatting, people were like hanging out. Like I remember that from the first kind of moment of intimidation to the actual first conversations, like you started vibing with the whole group very quickly, which just broke the ice and took some of the tension off for me.

thread run it so I'm not sure if it's if it helped to attract the right talent that was hard to find or if it's yeah, if it isn't. But to back to the first day I definitely also remember that and especially remember talking to a lot of the people afterwards. And I think that was the interesting part about C D T M that there was

It's not like you typically think or I at least at a time thought about an additional study program is something that that then is something only people with extremely good grades and the overachievers always always do and had a

two point two average in my on my Abitur and as a decent bachelor, but I was never like considering myself as like high like I was very motivated always to do extra stuff and to explore different things and so on, but I was never really academically the the probably the leading one.

And then I found that City Tamb was this nice mix of there were a lot of people that were incredibly smart and incredibly had incredibly high academic achievements, and there were others that just had completely uh different reasons for being part of that group and that made it so diverse. And that's something I realised early. And then on that first day that that

circle where we sat together as you just described. I remember the moment where Andrew Kelly, who has sadly passed away by now, but it was a one of the leading minds behind inventing C D T M who is has brought it over from I think uh after spending time at MIT that wanted to bring that spirit of of kind of really tinkering with stuff and building stuff towards towards Europe and towards Munich and and the way he spoke about

his ideas and why he've done that it was incredibly yeah i inspiring and still remember very well the way he with this in his really thoughtful voice spoke about it Yeah, that really was motivating.

And it's the ultimate let's just get to know each other, let's break the ice as much as we can. And you're sleeping in bunk beds, it's like the spirit of C D T M. It's very humble, it's not fancy at all, it's just about making meaningful connections and starting to have some really inspiring conversations. And I wanna hear about your kind of favorite memory. I have several, but I remember one thing and I think it's it's speaks so much to what you were just saying about people are

amazing but for many different reasons. Like it's not this uniform everyone has a the a top GPA or everyone wants to be an entrepreneur. Ka everyone has a reason for why they're there, but it's quite different for For different people, and so I remember in Fish Buff Ow, it's the kickoff weekend, high energy, and in the end, you always have a party night.

Where you go to Spielradl, I think, is the club where it's a local club where we have some drinks and we hit the dance floor and it's just great vibe. And there was a an alumna who was incredibly inspiring. I think she was like the top of her class at TU Munich, studying management and economics. She was also, I think, already interning at McKinsey at the same time writing her master thesis. And she had traveled to Fischbafau just for the kickoff.

and was hitting the dance floor with us until 5 a.m. in the morning, distributing shots to everyone. and was just so easy to talk to and like super grounded and just really fun at the same time pulling all these different things off. And I just remember finding her so inspiring.

because it was not this like uniform picture of someone who only strives or does well in one area of their life, but really like the social energy that she had and just quite frankly the party energy and like the fun that she was. I just remember that being like such a vivid and great example for the spirit of CDTM. So that's something that stayed really top of mind for me. I'm not sure if you have a specific memory.

uh Josha and Mehmet, who were the founders of Philetics and also CD Tem alumni, came to present to us about their company. But it was really they didn't really present as much Philetics or where they started, they presented much more a mindset, a mindset of of opportunities and a mindset of just taking risks. And it was so incredibly inspiring. And I think one of the quotes says that is like,

How deep can you fall? What is the like the worst thing can happen? If you're living in a country like Germany that has a strong social system that has has you have great education, there's really no excuse for you now going on to to work at BMW or something else, at least it's not when you're

twenty something or in your early thirties, but really you have all the opportunities and and yeah, it was just incredibly impressive how they've th they with that that kind of mindset and that courage started philetics, bootstrapped it and eventually

sold it. Judith and I both ended up being investors in the next startup and then Mehmet still's a close friend, actually my neighbor now. And so another way of these kind of very inspiring moments, but it l led to l long connections through the network and that the group of alumni is very happy for them to inspire us there and probably their I would say their speech probably had a big role to play to the numbers you mentioned before about our class being so motivated and entrepreneurial.

Let's talk a little bit about the program. So I just mentioned the three phases of C DM, right? We s we started with trend research. I can't quite remember what our trend research was about. I know it was about shared economy and about some technology. Do you still remember what it was exactly?

And there was a future in which like there was all authentication was sensor-based. And then there was a future in which I think it was shared economy versus not shared economy. And that was just like a super, super inspiring and fun exercise in the first time that we had to work in groups and we had to write this report.

Ah so uh you're right. Center-based authentication was the topic. What were what were some of the things that stood out to you about trend research, that whole phase the of the program? Like how did it impact you? How was it actually

interdisciplinary group, which you don't usually have in your study program. You have the people around you that study the same thing and typically have somewhat of the same background. All of a sudden they're so different and then you go through this a phase where at the beginning you're trying to understand technologies that are involved and then all of a sudden you have this

Electro electrical engineering master guy next to you that explains to you why certain connections in a sensor work in a certain way and why it's possible to do something with temperature or not and so on. And then in the next moment someone else

explains that person uh how to think about business models in that context and how that works. And I think that was just really inspiring. And I still remember that the two of us were actually in the final phase of that group where then in the end you also go to the first mini type of startup idea thing where you figure out, okay, how could this be like how could you come up with one

commercialized and then pitched that to the rest of the group and think we came up with a concept of different like stealing a little bit from Harry Potter, from different Horicses, of different components that can be combined together to be form your identity and authenticate you with that. It was it was it

C D we didn't expect this to be commercialized, but it was just really fun to think that through. We came up with a brand, we came up with a concept, we pitched it and we're really proud of ourselves. And it was just a fun, fun moment.

You could actually authenticate. I actually let's see. We're going into a day and age where cybercrime is gonna be a huge issue and with everything that's happening in AI, everyone can clone everyone potentially. Think potentially we need to open the drawer again and bring out our parents. Toxification, authentication, cybersecurity solution that we thought of when we were all little kids that didn't understand much about the world.

companies or kind of institutions, organizations out there. And then the whole idea is over a short period of time to basically come up with a business, to come up with the pitch, the understanding of the technology, farming the product. understanding the users, doing user research, market research, and then it all ends in this infamous design fear, which I've come to think about as like YC demo day, but like for CTM.

where kind of everyone, all the teams pitch together on stage uh and get feedback. And I again want to touch on key moments and what you took away from it. You already mentioned the interdisciplinary it's interdisciplinary work and exchange. I think that is really key.

I think another thing that really stood out to me is just like the shit that people give, right? I think we're all we remember our time at university and it was for me it was always I love working Like I love the kind of collaborative element.

putting our heads together and working on something. But I hated the fact that at university, if it's not CDTM, I tended to be the one who was carrying the weight of the entire group because I gave way more shits than the average person gave about kind of group work. And so I'm sure many of the listeners maybe also know these situations where you're just a little bit frustrated because people are just not engaged or just don't care as much.

And so I think what's really stood out to me, both about trend research and also MPD, is just the amount of shit that people gave. It's like everyone was so engaged. And also let's be transparent, like very competitive. Like people they took it very personal, like the project and like really getting to an an and a result that is just simply incredible and simply amazing. And that kind of motivation, ambition.

and at such a young age. I think that really stood out to me. And I still remember to this day, Martin Schöder, who was another uh student in our class, he was also until today, a dear friend. he was I think in a group, I'm not sure if it was yours, they had this like three D body scanner and they were like three D printing. I can't re exactly remember what it was, but I remember the pitch and the presentation.

being so insanely amazing, like he was standing there and the machine was scanning him and it looked like something straight out of a sci-fi movie. And like it's just there was all these elements that just set the bar really high and everyone really gave a shit. And people were like working at the center super late, like staying nights, like really trying to just create something that was amazing.

And I still remember s some of these situations where I was just sitting there and like, okay, holy shit, okay, this is where the bar is. And then we put in another twenty-four hours, refine this part of the pitch, refine that part of the business model.

did some more user research here. Like I th those are just moments that I think to me really early on just showed that if you put motivation and you put energy behind an amazing group of people who equally give a shit about the world, pretty amazing things can grow from

But it it was different at C D T M because it was just it felt so much more relevant and so much more fun to actually do these projects and really lean in because it was not like, Oh yeah, we have to do this weird paper and we'll work together on whatever but it was like yeah, MPD was Building almost a little startup. And it I think that was one of the key things. And independent if you're ever interested in building a startup, but it just shows you these steps that are

that you could go through again and again with a different idea with a new project, as long as you have a good team, that you just guided you through yeah, if I'll just have to understand the problem, find a solution, discuss that, build a prototype, test it, talk to users, all of these things. Did you all of a sudden realize

Fucking easy to build a company. It's really hard and to scale it and you pe need to be lucky and we can make an entire other po episode podcast talking about all our learnings about How hard it is to scale and make companies successful. But really, starting a company is excredi incredibly easy. But unless you've gone through that once and that's in a really safe environment, you don't re realize that.

as much. And I think that was what C D T M P D really gave me. And in our case we worked for Siemens with our project partner and we worked for we came up with the idea of a smart monitoring system for a a coffee shop um

So we essentially had a little device which we tracked the energy consumption of a coffee shop around the corner and then we built this entire model Emoco, I think we called it, and had this like monitoring solution that would give you energy saving consumption. I think there's a number of companies

by now out there doing something like that, we ended up not pursuing it. But I think that's just shows how like yeah, uh it just gives you so many learnings for you to take away, working again in a cross functional group of course, because we had now Roman who was

who is also my co founder at Pesonio, was part of my group. He did all the front end work, then had to Sebastian who is still a very close friend, who d who is an electrical engineer or was an electroengineer, you mentioned it before, now founder of Luminovo, who did a bunch of the

Yeah, t uh c uh the the calculation by the algorithms d uh for us to detect abnormalities and uh energy consumption with Anna and myself and uh bringing that all together. And there was just a really nice energy in that group working on this together and ultimately

being able to pitch it and I know some of these MPD have gone on to to start companies and some just took a bunch of learnings for it. But in any ways it was a lot of fun and yeah felt much more relevant than any other student versus project I've ever done before.

do after because you feel I've done that before, so like how hard can it be? Back to the point that Memod and Joshua made, you really have no excuse, like how deep can you fall? The worst thing is you're unemployed in Germany, duh, you're still better off than Probably 80% of people living in in the world at this day and age. So I think that's actually a great way of framing it. I hadn't considered that perspective.

potentially interested in seeing the talent and it felt like a huge thing. I remember being like, wow, okay. And really extra nervous before pitching on stage. And obviously nowadays VCs including myself are swarming City TM and what kind of showering kind of students who don't even know what they want to do in life with

like preemptive term sheets. And and I think there's some great things about that. There's also some bad things about, let's be honest. I think part of it part of what you said earlier about us joining C DM was not that we did it to get to a specific like VC type outcome, but it was just the pure innate curiosity and just wanting to explore and wanting to follow

follow that explorative sense of the world. And yeah, to some extent maybe the success that CGM has is potentially also taking away from that. I don't know. I think it's a it's an ongoing conversation at the center and something that I'm of course mindful of as someone who's now Chasing many of the talents that are in the current active classes as well.

never even tell anyone that you wear the center or that this is what you've done. It's really much more that the learnings you take away, the connections you make, the your network. That's what you get out of it. And the fact that it's nowadays also fancy and hip to to be C D term alumni and it helps you getting term sheets on and maybe also internships at McKinsey. It's not something why you should do it for sure. Yeah.

CDTM is by far like one of the most valuable things, if not the most valuable thing that I've done in life. But I also at that point in time, like after trend research and MPD, felt like I'd given it my all in that last phase was like not something that I saw in

strictly necessary to take all the amazing connections and all the amazing insights that I gathered so far and I really wanted to yeah just get going and so I decided not to finish CTM not because I didn't think it was valuable but because Yeah, that's just a little bit the way that my life works sometimes. Would love to hear how Ilab and that last phase was for you.

Also I did the E Lab, I also uh indeed finished finished the exam, but not because I was in for the batch but really I was just enjoying the experience so much and was doing it next to my masters anyway. And ELAP for me I think it's just a a nice continuation of trend research really that first explorative first you learn a lot and then MPD is how to get from zero to one to actually starting company. MPD and E Lab is then the phase where you

I think internally it's sometimes called a little bit like a almost like a consulting project. So also for those I mean that there's a lot of people going to McKinsey, BCG and so on afterwards and I think it's a little bit that kind of you go into an established business and do almost the consulting for them and figuring out. I think in our case we went at the time there was this in Germany there there used to be four mobile licenses, mobile service providers and then two to get merged and then

there was by the competition authorities they were asking for a fourth one to be reestablished so there was one new license and we were essentially consulting the per s the company they were acquiring the fourth license and h what to do with it and how to establish themselves and how to brand themselves and how to position and so on. It was a really interesting thing to look into. But again I think the main part for for us was

the learnings you took from working together and the little things in between. I think it's yeah. That was the rounding it off. But because we didn't talk to it, but I m did mention it briefly just now, I think besides the three core programs there were also a bunch of electives that were incredibly fun and insightful that you could just do and I think you

I think in order to complete the program you maybe had to do one or two or three, but really it didn't again didn't matter what was necessary for the cur curriculum, but it was just some really interesting extra c curricular tip uh activities with alumni that were sharing some of the experience and a lot of just really inspiring people to be working from. So that was very cool.

you know, didn't go as planned. You from the outside in, I think you always strike people as someone everything that you touches turns into gold or kind of someone that

was like the ultimate I hope you don't mind me saying because I'm a dear friend, but like the ultimate kind of sunny boy in the sense that life just comes easy at you. But can you share a moment in which you struggle? And I know that this is very much the outside perception, so I think it would be helpful for people to understand how that was like for you.

where day and I'd hear the last month or weeks or whatever. And then of course there was a little bit of competition between the different groups, but it was a like a friendly because it wasn't really anything to win or f to lose for the others, but it was just

we're all g giving our all and then the end you sort of celebrate each other and you celebrate the whole class. And I think that was just the really nice connection. There's also the people and th their values were just really incredible. I think within C D Tim

I couldn't think of a really hard time. Sometimes of course differing difficult juggling with all the other things that you had going on in life and side jobs and and things. But I think the environment in C D Temp was just so welcoming and so supportive that I didn't feel it was like ever a It felt super, super difficult being at C D Tem or going through the program.

And it was just really enjoyable being being with the other people. Again, it's just the the struggles of I at the time also well still being a C D T M starting Bersoni already and then working as a salesperson for UNU which is another C D T M company at the sometimes who were sitting in C D T um writing my master's thesis or doing web demos for Personian and jumping out of the window to the Ulnoscoolers parked outside to give a test drive to potential customer. I think

But I wouldn't really talk about this as hardship. It was just a little bit the student hustle that you sometimes do. But yeah.

And communication just breaks down and people start having fights. And because again, you cared so much about the result, there was some situations that were seriously difficult. And I think in some small way what preps you to feedback to kind of you manage conflict, manage differing expectations, manage oftentimes incredibly bright people who also tend to be quite opinionated and to put it maybe mildly, especially in the more kind of

Maybe students who came from technical backgrounds in comparison to the people that I was studying with more on the social science side, they just tended to be a lot more direct. One could also maybe say potentially lower EQ, I'm not sure. But that was something that I remember like having to grapple with a little bit in the beginning. But actually I think it just toughens you up in some way. You just don't take things to heart in the same way that you maybe did before.

And you just really learn to try and resolve conflict and to navigate all these different personalities and egos to some extent without kind of sharing too much detail. I think there was. Except for maybe the group actually that we were in, which was the first trend research group where I think it was actually we just had such a great time and it was like smooth sailing. We just had the

We just had so much fun. Like I I don't really think we had any conflict. Like in the other group in my MPD group, there were certainly some issues that we had to work. through and also in some other electives or some other task forces that students were engaging in. And so I thought for me that was difficult, but I also learned a lot from it.

learn at that point which you maybe later on only learn when you go into the business life, but really sit down and having a conversation with someone about something that they don't do well. And I think still today at Personi we have coachings for everyone about radical candor and so on and had Kim Scott speak here the other day. But that that's something that's a real skill that you need that makes can make you incredibly successful

in life if you have able to have these candidate open conversations with people or not. And that's I don't think any university program teaches that and in a real life where you actually have these have these real complexes, describe them and then resolve them by having candidates and Courageous conversations.

like the embodiment of you to you can just do things. Like I often people ask me like, oh, what led you to tech, what led you into tech? And I think initially it was my curiosity, right? It's just like being the having this explorer mindset and just following my instincts, following my curiosity. But then it's really at the end of the day like you, Zeba, like all the also men in my class. Oftentimes I get asked what female role model made you go into tech? And I say

It wasn't really like a female role model. It was like I think in our class we were twenty-four students. I think there was like three women, four women in the beginning. The rest was men. And the folks that I was most interacting with or became closest friends with tended to or happened to be men. And I think that in no way, to be honest, took away from like my excitement for technology. I think if anything,

it was quite the opposite. I remember calling you up when we were raising Afamilia Fantu and I was thinking about stepping into the partnership role and asking your feedback. I think we were on vacation a as well. And you were like, of course you can do this, like a hundred percent. And you were like, and I'm even gonna invest money. It was it was just like it was such a it was such a vote of confidence. And I think that goes back to my time at CTM that

people around you just give you the feeling that you can just do things. And so it really lifts your ambition. And at the end of the day, it was the best learning for me that it's really the proximity, right? I the a you on average are the result of the five people that you're closest with.

And those strong bonds really tilt the trajectory of your life upwards or downwards. And so I think CDTM for many of us just happened to be an upward tilting group of people that you just ended up becoming super close friends with hyper. Met my husband at CTM, he was my onboarding buddy at kickoff weekend in Fishbath Owl. And we obviously started dating, and today we're married and we have two kids.

Anna, who was in his class, so I think one or two years above us, she's now the godmother to my child. We are the godmothers or godparents to her child. There was all these insanely close connections that all of us formed. that I'm so grateful for. And I think it's irrespective of gender, it's irrespective of we were not all from some fancy background. Like my parents didn't go to university. Like none of this stuff mattered. It was just like you have people who gave a shit.

who were humble, who wanted to have fun, but also like just move things and achieve things in life. And yeah, I think that was just such a special and rare combination of ingredients. And in many ways it's so simple, right? It's like people ask, what is the magic of C D T M? There's there there's no m like there's no big magic. There's no like secret formula. It's at the end of the day, it's just a few very simple things that I think C DM has done very consistently.

But I do think one thing that's so magical about C UTM is that it's small. Like it's so intimate. It's just twenty-five people, sometimes thirty people, sometimes twenty people per class. Like it's a small group of people and so it really allows you to go really deep with people. And to develop these int in insane bonds for life. And so if there is one secret sauce or recipe that I can point to, it it's probably that.

It is I think the diversity of backgrounds that is very unique. I don't think in many places you get you really get these diversity both culturally, you can get that in other environments, but also study backgrounds where you really bring these different people together. And then also having I think a really effective recruiting process where the including there's the other students interviewing them and so on and doing a uh doing cases and so on where do you

filter out not just for academic achievements or for certain things on paper, but really for the personalities, how do they will they add to the center, how do they be be gonna interesting person in the group that really wants to lift up that entire group and the entire class and bring something towards it rather than go somewhere to get something out of it.

And I think that's a key mindset which probably aligns to the humility you mentioned before that most people at the centre have and I do think that's been incredibly helpful. And I think because then you get so much out of it all of us still also like to give back, not just by going on a podcast, but really I think both of us still give courses at C D T M on a regular basis. I give together with with Mike Rux, founder of Photo, a course on on fundraising.

uh to uh as a as an elective for students and uh yeah that's just an a way because we're so grateful towards what we've gotten from C D Tem that we want to continue to be part of the community and to give to give and yeah, as you see said, the private the personal impact is also so huge with which both of our close friends we that we share and that we still have auto C D M. The the amount of vacations we've done where eighty percent of X C D Ms or even

on your wedding or many other weddings we've been since a lot of the people, including best man and and pri what's the female version of a best man?

You mentioned that you were one of very few women in our class, which uh was true. I think that has changed things for all the female listeners that are maybe scared that they would be would be under in the minority. I think by now it's close to fifty fifty.

the entrepreneurship but there's also many people that go on to do all kinds of interesting stuff. In ma s many cases whether it's then going into a social political context or into another economical context or even going to McKinsey, they at least bring that entrepreneurial spirit that they learn at the center. And again, it's not about that you have to start a company, but you learn a bunch of things that will be valuable for most shapes of your life.

You did you recently started an initiative to to kick off an entire Luminay Summit where we'll bring groups of people together again and recollecting that some of these experiences that's gonna be, I think, a very powerful one. And the another one I'm I'm just hopeful for is that with the increase in popularity of the C tem that we won't it won't dilute its actual impact.

and and the the opportunity it can have on individual people by really staying true its to its core. But I think those are some of the things I think about what do you think C D M should become or can go for in the future.

that C D T M took in terms of scaling up the programme and there's currently a big initiative that's going on call it C D T M kind of 2035 or Vision 2035 or on the future of C T M and how we can drive even more impact together. And so I think for me it's just it's the wish that CTM in many ways stays exactly what it was, right? Small, intimate, with a lot of humility. with crazy doses of like insane fun, but at the same time ambition and really impact that barlifting element.

preserving all of that while at the same time of course hopefully giving many more people out there a similar chance to be transformed by CTM in the way that we were transformed by it. And so I don't have a perfect answer here, right? I think I can only

I can only say that it's shaped me in such incredible ways and I think the recipes are at the end of the day pretty simple. I think there there should be lots of things here that we should be able to take and make even more impactful going forward. But I think there's also like a just a fine line and then some balance to strike. And I love the amount of nuance and thinking that is currently going into this conversation. It's not an easy

Of course, this is the plan, these three steps and boom, world domination. And so I think it's always balancing the continuous ambition to scale the impact with making sure we protect all of the small things that make CTM so great as it stands today, but even ten years ago. Yeah, it's more of a hope and less of an answer, but I think that's the way that I think about it. And I think first and foremost, or

Ending the podcast and would love to get your thoughts on this as well. Because I think for you and I, it's it's very top of mind for us right now. I think at its core, CTM is a program that brings people who wanna affect change in the world from different backgrounds together and allows them to become the innovators of tomorrow. And we're right now going through a technologically very disruptive time with everything that's happening

in the world of AI. We're going through a very disruptive time when it comes to geopolitics and when it comes when it comes to a lot of the things that we always took for granted. Peace in Europe, peace in the world, when all of those cards are being thrown up into the air. And so I think to some extent we've all

quote unquote lost our virginity when it comes to just the yeah, the way in which we saw the world and w we had to all grow up and understand that the world is not a not as beautiful a place as we hoped it would be and it takes all of us to step up.

into the responsibility of driving change. And you mentioned the Alumni Summit, which is one of the initiatives that we're driving. But I think if anything, a place like CTM is more needed than it was ever before. Because at this point in time, I know that the answers won't be found in

electrical engineering and computer science and business studies and social science. Like at the end of the day, we need to learn to come together and share different perspectives of how we can shape technology, how we can shape innovation.

to be able to hopefully create something that works for most people and not just for a few. And yeah, CGM is only a small program. We won't single handedly be able to save the world. But I do think it's time to be pretty ambitious, to be even more ambitious and But to scale the types of rooms that we had at C T M because I I think or I would hope that if more

rooms of power in the world look like the room that we stepped into on our first day at CTM, like the makeup of that class, that interdisciplinary spirit, that humility. I'm pretty sure the world will be a better place for it than it is right now. And yeah, I think That's just something that's very top of mind for me. And I hope that we can affect change and positive momentum going forward in that way.

culturally rich place which we all have the pleasure of living within, but also as a place that used to be leading in many ways and maybe has fallen back in others, and especially when it comes to some of the things you mentioned before, AI, but also even software and a lot of the

technologies we use on our smartphones, on our computers, and in the internet every day are are not made in Europe. And I think there's no reason that they are not have to they can't be made in Europe. The all the talent this year, all the the incredible acts the the barriers to act entry are so low by now.

that you can build great products, great companies everywhere in the world, but certainly also in Europe. And a lot of our fellow C D T Tem alumni uh have also gone to the uh to Silicon Valley's a lot of the people building products um in OpenAI and Google DeepMind and so on. Those are

Europeans and often C D T M alumni and I think the but the problem often is or one of the reasons why they end up uh going des proximity of people or like wanted people. And I think that's the one of the values C DM can bring is having the Silicon Valley like close knit network of people that can build stuff together and you see it in the numbers that outpace uh Stanford MIT and other places.

And therefore I do think having places like the C D M not just the C D M can also be others, but that support that kind of entrepreneurial spirit, that kind of risk taking that kind of innovation potential on our new technologies is incredibly important to ensure Europe's future in the map our sovereignty when it comes to technologies, but also our for our economies. And therefore I'm I think that's also an incredibly important role C Temp can play for Europe.

Always looking forward to getting more people excited about the work that the center is driving. Thank you so much.