Anything & Everything (feat. Jamie Bishop)

Hey guys, welcome back to more of Mel, the coolest fucking pod in the game, where I pick people's brains about things that keep me up at night. I'm your host Mel, and on today's episode Anything and Everything, I'm joined by the intelligent, beautiful, amazing Jamie Bishop, who is my very first non-Emerson guest. Guys I've genuinely never been more excited to record an episode in my life because I've known Jamie for what?

Two weeks, two and a half weeks, but I've learned so much from you already and I can't wait to pick your brain. I'm just enthralled by you. You really have so much wisdom to give, and one day I'm going to clone myself. I mean, I'm going to clone Joe, become Joe, so that you can be my sister. Wait for context. My roommate Joe, who was on an episode, Jamie is her sister, so that's kind of the little context. But anyways, enough praise for you.

I would love for you to introduce yourself to the Emerson people and my other listeners. Hi guys, I'm Jamie. I'm Joe's sister. I am 21 years old, currently living in New York, and I'm here on a Boston trip to visit you guys, and it's already been so much fun. We had to sleep over last night. We sure did, and I heard them giggling all night. It was the funniest thing ever. So as per the title, we are literally going to dive into anything and everything, guys. So I'm excited.

I'm so jittery right now. I don't even know where to start. Dude, don't even. Listen to the episode that you guys did together with Paige, and I texted Joe, can I please get on the podcast? This would be so fun. Oh my God, dude, I was so excited when Joe told me. I was walking from work, and I was miserable, and Joe came to pick me up that day. Because I had a horrible day prior, and Joe came to pick me up. She was like, wait, I have an idea.

Jamie texted me, blah, blah, and I was like, ugh, no. You have an idea? It's totally taken credit. No, but I was so excited, and later we had a FaceTime call and talked about everything we wanted to dive into, and now, like, here we are, you're in Boston, and I'm just so excited that this is coming to life. Me too, and people don't know, but I am an amateur podcaster. She is. My dream was to have my own podcast, and I tried, like, I think my sophomore year in college too. Really?

And I recorded an episode, it was like 45 minutes long of just me talking. And I love that. And I didn't have, like, the balls to put it out anyway, which is why I respect you so much for doing this. Oh my God, stop. I'm so excited to be on it. Thank you so much, but no, you have to, guys. Everyone comment when I post the promo for this Jamie podcast. She has so much to say and so much to tell people. Like, honestly, I would for sure fucking tune in. So please do that. I'm waiting on it.

So I just want to dive right in, honestly. Go for it. So my first question is, what shapes your view of relationships and love and partnership? It doesn't have to be, like, specifically a boyfriend, but, like, even friendships, like relationships with, like, your parents, your siblings. It's like, what, just kind of the foundation, like, what does that entail for you, like, building a relationship with someone? That's a really deep question to start us off. I don't know.

I feel like that's something that everyone should ask themselves, like, how they model their vision of, like, an ideal relationship. And I think it's a combination of a lot of things for everyone.

I think for me, it would definitely be my parents growing up, like, seeing how they navigated their lives and, like, went through ups and downs, but it's also, like, seeing Joe and her first boyfriend was definitely, like, a model for me to see, like, you know, kind of form my own expectations of how I should be treated. Yeah. Even from, like, movies and TV shows. Like, Joe and I were talking about Modern Family last night. I heard you.

But it's such a good TV show to watch, to think about, like, all different types of relationship dynamics, like, not even just a partner, but also your mom, your dad, your sibling, a friend. And I think that served, like, a really big place in my life, is honestly Modern Family, of how you can, like, navigate conflict and keep humor in there. But I think it's a combination of things, and, like, definitely for my friends, too.

I feel like I didn't have a relationship, like, a proper relationship until I was older. So seeing how my friends dealt with that, I kind of had this, like, observer standpoint for a long time where I got to, like, be the outsider looking at it, and that definitely helped me. I agree with all of those things. I feel like Modern Family, I'm also, like, maybe not as obsessed as you guys, but I really do love that trend. I've watched it through, like, at least six or seven times.

I think it's a really good show. Oh, my God, that's a lot. No, I had a phase, for sure, in high school. It's the best. It's so good. I think when you see all of the different relationships, and, like, you don't do it intentionally, maybe, but you kind of try to emulate those things. I feel like, especially in the media, also, like, our generation, like, Gen Z, you're so a part of Gen Z, yeah. You're only two years older.

Yeah. Yeah, so I feel like we have so much access, and we're exposed to so many things, and, like, we can't help but let it, like, be ingrained in our psyche, and so, like, we tend to emulate the things we see online, and, like, which kind of sucks in a sense, because, like, some of those things are not realistic, and obviously Modern Family is a show, and, like, that family probably does exist out there, but, like, you know, it's definitely

not a realistic thing in some, like, scenes or some episodes, but I feel like it's a nice, like, base foundation to have, you know? Yeah, I mean, that's so true.

We forget how impressionable we are, especially as younger kids, which is why it's kind of scary that young kids are going so into, you know, social media right now, like, for the first time ever in human history, and we definitely do emulate those things that we see online, and there are a lot of unrealistic standards, and, you know, you see, like, those super model boyfriend and girlfriend, and they do all these things that are just to get money,

and there's a lot of pressure these days to, like, to form your own relationship based on how it will be perceived externally as well, and that's something that I've always been very against. Yeah, I agree with that 100% kind of piggybacking off of that.

I feel like there's, I don't know who told me this, but then I started putting it into perspective, and I was like, wait, you're so right, like, the couples who post the most on Instagram, like, constantly posting, I'm sorry, the most unhappy couples.

Yeah. It's like they feel the need to prove to, like, the public or, like, outside viewers that they are happy, and like, oh, look at us, he got me flowers, he got me this, he got me that, we're doing this, we're doing that, and it's like, okay, that's nice, but sometimes it's nice to keep things, like, within your relationship and to yourself, which makes it, like, that much more special. I agree.

And I feel like sometimes it's not their fault because social media does tend to put that pressure on you where you feel the need to, like, quote unquote, show off, like, what you have going on for you in your life, and I feel like that's the detriment of a lot of relationships too, because you have this idea of what your relationship is, like, on social media, and then, like, it kind of translates into real life, and then, like, one day you

have a come to Jesus and you're like, oh, that's not my real relationship, you know? Yeah, that's a really good point. And I feel like other people get information that way too, so another aspect is people feel pressured to, like, keep everyone else posted on their lives. But yeah, I don't even know if it means that they're, like, unhappy in their relationship, it's just you have to, like, question why you feel the need to do that.

And there are certain instances where, like, someone reposts a picture of their girlfriend, and that's super cute, you know? But there are others where I feel like it warrants a question. Yeah, I agree with that 100%.

For me, I don't really know what shapes my view of, like, relationships or love or whatever, because, like, I'm a child of divorce and, like, not saying that my parents didn't teach me, like, how to love people or whatever, and, like, also my grandparents are divorced and, like, my other set of grandparents, they have, like, a really weird marriage, so it's, like, I don't, I had to, like, kind of navigate that on my own because I don't really, like,

have a good idea of what, like, a loving relationship between man and woman is supposed to be, like, you know? Or, like, long-term love.

Exactly. But I feel like within friendships and, like, other types of relationships, I feel like my mom or, like, even, like, other people in my family gave me, like, a really good basis for that because the way my mom loves her friends or, like, loves me and my brother or, like, loves her sister, like, that did really, like, give me, like, a good, solid foundation as to how I treat my friends now or, like, people I have relationships with now, which I think is a really nice thing.

And I hate to say it, but we, at one point, we do become our parents. Like, we are our parents' children at the end of the day, like, because we live with these people the longest, like, our siblings too, like, we do get a lot. I've seen that with you guys for the past, like, day and a half, like, I swear to God, they're twins, like, we do everything at once, like, it's the craziest thing.

So I feel like siblings are definitely a big part of that, like, I want to hear your thoughts about, like, siblings. I know you have thoughts. I know you have thoughts. I'm staring directly into Jo's eyes right now. Oh, Jo's here also. She's our little live audience. She can be the commentator. Yeah, if she wants to chime in. If you need me. Please do. Well, I want to start with, like, your friend point first, because I think that's super important too.

And just in general, growing up, like, the way that you navigate any kind of relationship, how you resolve conflict, how you, like, express love for another person, how you, like, need validation, how you share things, like, all of those things are super important that we learn having siblings at a young age and with our parents. Agreed. With friends, it's super cool too, because have you guys read the book? I gave it to Jo, Everything I Know About Love by Dolly Coddigan.

Did you read it from cover to cover? Yeah, I just finished it. Oh, you did? Yeah. I think it's a little nightlight. She reads it in bed. It's like a three. You open it up and it's like three different spotlights. It's the funniest. It's in a second switch to the lighting. Yeah, Jo texted me. She's like, I'm in my barra, my book era. She does read in the era. I said rara. Yeah, her rara. She reads quite a bit these days, and I'm proud of her for that. So proud of her.

But that book was really good. It's a super quick read if people want to buy it. I just saw it on the shelf because it kind of has a tension grabber title, but it's a little bit more of a memoir version of Sally Rooney. I love Sally Rooney. She went to Trinity. No way. I'm pretty sure. But she filmed normal people at Trinity. Have you read Conversations of Friends? Yes, it was so good. That book is amazing. It was such a good book. I know. I love her.

Yeah. But so Everything I Know About Love is this girl. She's British, and it's about the first time she talked to a guy on MySpace when she was like 13 all the way to when she's in her 30s and single. This isn't really giving anything away, I guess. It's just all of her different sexual escapades and terrible nights out with friends. All the guys that she's hooked up with, she just tells it as a collection of stories.

But her overall argument or thesis of the book is that everything she learned about love was through her female friendships. I think that was a really cool point in the end to learn. I don't know if you agree with that, Joe. She went through roommate living and fights with her best friend, like a loss of a childhood friend. She modeled a lot of how she dealt with people and shared her intimate aspects of herself and her own problems through those relationships with her friends.

I think that's a really big part. Yeah. Something about. I agree with that, definitely. I don't have a sister. All my girl cousins, I didn't grow up with them because they lived in the States and I lived in Haiti. I didn't really get the chance besides the adult women in my family, but as a child, you don't really want to interact with adults at that young age.

Other than a lot of things I learned from my brother and my cousins, which when boys love, they're rough with how they don't really show it overtly, but you know they love you, right? Recently, maybe junior year of high school, I started because my mom has a sister and I'm really close with her sister. I started noticing things in their relationship and I was like, wow, this is beautiful. It's such a beautiful thing to have a sister. I've had a bunch of girlfriends.

A lot of those relationships faded out for sure because you grow apart and that's totally a part of life. I've had friendship losses, but the relationship I do have now with my mom and her sister, not even together, just separately, I have two different relationships with them. I've learned so much from them individually. It's such a nice thing to have, having women in your life. Obviously, men love shitting on me for having this podcast and the way I talk, but I do love my guy friends.

I think they're amazing. One of my best friends, he's a guy, so please take all of this with a grain of salt. Thank you. But I feel like you learn so much from having women around you. I feel like especially older women too because it's kind of corny, but they are wiser and they have much more experience than you and as much as you don't want to listen to your mom or older women around you. Your mom's know everything. They do.

I don't hesitate to tell my mom that nowadays because it's like, oh bitch, you know everything. You're a savant. It's crazy. I don't know. The thing is with that though, as much as you can look at people older than you and see how other relationships are modeled or learn through friendships or just family relationships, you still won't know everything until you're in it. Yeah. I agree with that for sure. You might think that you know how to have a good relationship, but just from observation.

You go through the struggles when you're in it too. For sure. We're getting into that. It's super interesting what you said about having female friends because I was never in a female friend group to this day and that's something that I never really thought that I needed for whatever reason. I just clicked with guys more. It was just easier. I felt like they were more blunt and upfront. There was no drama and I just meshed better with that.

I see Jo and her friend group from back home, you guys as a suite and some of my other friends from college seeing their childhood friend group and it really is crazy the power of female friendships and how intimate it is, how caring it is, how selfless it is. You just always have each other's back no matter what. That's something that I trust my guy friends to have my back 100%. It's not that same form of intimacy. It's very different. Agreed. Yeah. I've always thought about that.

I feel like I've seen that with Jo and I'm so happy that she's had that growing up. Yeah. It's different. It's definitely a different dynamic between obviously guys and girls as much as people hate to admit it. Two different things for sure. And having relationships with both sexes. It's a totally different dynamic because I look at my relationship with my girlfriends or my girl cousins and I'm like, oh, this is amazing. I feel so light and refreshed.

Oh my God. And then I go back home to Haiti and I'm with my guy cousins and I'm like, holy shit, let me fucking breathe. It's like them pushing me under the water. Please stop. But I love it so much. I think it's such a nice paradox to have. So not even to compare, but to see the differences and revel in the differences because I think it's such a nice thing. I think I value not more, but because I grew up with them and I do have such a soft ass joke, I am obsessed with my little cousin.

He's not that much younger than me. He's two years younger than me. But the conversations we have, I'm able, he's comfortable enough now to talk to me about girls. And it's like the best thing ever and I can tell him anything. It's such a nice thing to have because I have both sides of the spectrum where it's like, okay, I can talk to my girlfriends about this and then I can go to my guy friends about this and it's a nice thing to have, honestly. It's a healthy balance. Oh, for sure.

You get different needs met and you definitely need your guy friend fix and then your girlfriend fix. You do, yeah. I agree with that 100%. I feel like we kind of covered that question. I'm so happy you so much came out of that. This ends up being like three hours long. I know. Okay. So next question, I kind of came up with this last night because I was thinking of it myself.

What phase of your, obviously this is specific to everyone, but I feel like kind of everyone in life has this kind of like enlightening moment, right? So what phase of your life do you think one comes to terms with the feeling the need to like want someone, want a partner, want a boyfriend, want a girlfriend? Because I was thinking of this last night and I'm going to give my answer like for me personally and like I want to hear your thoughts.

Like what point of your life are you, were you like, oh wow, like it would be really nice to have a boyfriend. Interesting. That's a good question. Do you want to answer first? Okay. I'll answer first. Like I feel like mine wasn't like a sweet thing or like a kind of like cute coming to age thing. I think it was like after my first kiss, I was like, need him. Like need him to be my boyfriend, which kind of sucks. He was an awful boyfriend. Like we did end up dating, but it was so bad.

It was like middle school dating. Like it was like looking back. It was so disgusting. Yeah, we held much more than like things in Haiti advance really fast. Oh, really? Yeah, it was horrible, but he ended up like cheating on me. Like in middle school? Yeah. Well, he was like a year older than me, I think. Yeah. Like I was like eighth grade, like going into ninth grade, whatever. He was, he was not great, but like I do. I like him now. Honestly, we grow. We learn and we grow.

Like I like him a lot now. I think he's super funny and charming, but never again. But I feel like that was kind of my come to Jesus moment where I was like, ooh, like let me try to explore this. Like what, what is this about? Cause like I didn't have a boyfriend at the time, but then we were kind of talking and then we met about this party and then he kissed me. And I was like, oh, like it was like kind of a cloud. Indoor box. And I was like, oh my God, need to like dip my toes in this.

Like this is crazy. Was he your first boyfriend? He was my first boyfriend. First kiss. First kiss. Yeah. So it was like your first interaction. Yeah. Like romantically with the boys. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Kind of deep first, like, cause I've talked to people before that, but it was like never anything like serious. Right. Yeah. I'm going to hear your thoughts. Yeah. I'm going to think, I don't feel like I've almost ever had that need. Really?

Yeah. Growing up, I was never like what people call it boy crazy. I think I had like one crush in middle school, which I would never say out loud ever, but Joe knows what I'm talking about. And then we moved to France. Like it was more, it wasn't ever like I feel like I need a boyfriend. It was more so like, oh, I like this guy. Did you ever feel the need to like explore? Like, no, there was never like a pressure. She's a different case. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Good for you. There was never.

It's always like a very close book. Like you have to like press her to get these answers. Yeah. But it was, maybe it's more just like she didn't have the answers. Yeah. It was like, for me, it wasn't like that big of a deal. My mom would be like, Jamie, I know that you like this boy. We had this like ongoing joke that she was like. Yeah. I was like always talking about boys if I'm on. And I just, I like didn't feel comfortable talking about it. So maybe it was like one aspect of self denial.

Um, but I can't like, I can't really think of a moment where I was like, I need this or I want this. And even when I got into like, when I had my first boyfriend in high school, I was like very ambivalent about it. I remember being like, ah, you know, I don't really like him that much. Like, why not? Like, fuck it. We'll see what happens. I feel like it digs people in such a deep hole. And we've talked about this, like being that way.

It's not a bad thing whatsoever, but then it's hard to like crawl yourself out because you're like, whatever. Yeah. Like it is what it is. You know, it was, that was my mistake. And it got me into a hole, a deep hole. Oh yeah. Even after that, like after we broke up, I was, you know, single for like four years. And even when I was like, before I started dating my current boyfriend, I didn't really feel like I had that need either.

And there were definitely moments where I was like, oh, it'd be really nice to watch this movie with someone else. Like that would be like the extent of it probably, or like just someone to like do very mundane things with. But even so, it was like very much focused, like before we, like my current boyfriend after I started dating was very much focused on the friendship part first of like, even if this doesn't go any like any further, I know that I want to be friends with this person.

Okay. I like that. I feel like that's where I'm at right now. Cause like I said, things go super fast and hey, like you start drinking out of the womb. Like, you know, I always told Joe, like my clubbing era like started like at 12 years old. How do you say that? Cara. Clara. Clara. Clara. Clara. Clara. Clara. Yeah. So like there's no, there's really no like laws or like regulations and Haiti like we talked about yesterday. So like you, there's no drinking age.

You could go out like, I already had like those phases so early in my life where like right now I feel like I'm at that enlightening stage where I'm like, like I don't really feel the need. If it does happen, beautiful. I'm not going to go out searching for it. Yeah. I think that's a super hot stage. Really in college too. Cause I feel like people go bonkers when they come to college and like start like diving into things.

And I was like that like last semester, like start diving into things and you're like, you have to like take a beat and like, like look at yourself in the mirror kind of like, okay, why are you doing this? Like there's no rush. Like there's no need for you to be doing this, you know? I feel like it's, sorry. No please.

I feel like they're going in with the wrong, they're going in with the wrong reasons and it's like clearly you're missing something with yourself if you feel the need right now, like so desperately to fill that up with somebody else. Yeah, I agree with this. I know. My mic always goes in and out. Don't worry. It's like we hear it like that, but they don't hear it like that. Perfect. Yeah. Cause I was like, it was going like that last episode and I was like, but.

I agree with Joe. I think, I think a lot of people go through that phase in life is where they have all these opportunities in front of them, whether it's like people, the ability to drink whenever you want, like some, some perception of like lawlessness and it causes you to go, start shit crazy and like take advantage of all those things, which is totally fine and everyone does it at different stages.

And I definitely see that at Columbia, like there are a bunch of nerds who like have never, they've been so focused on school that they get out and they go to their first party and then everyone ends up in the hospital. You know, it's just like a total disaster. But I think with all that, like it's good to experience it. It's good to make your mistakes, but at the end of the day, like ask yourself, what are you trying to give? Or what are you trying to receive?

Like what are you looking for externally that is, that is trying to fulfill a need that you can't meet yourself? Yeah, for sure. I think that's definitely something a lot of people need to work on. Please go to therapy, which we will talk about later. I lost my train of thought. I'm really sad because it was really good. Wait, what were you talking about? Like diving into things too fast. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a story time.

I was, oh yeah, I was constantly like, my hobby was swiping on Tinder and swiping on it. And I was like, oh my God, what are you doing? Like, are you insane? I had to delete them. Like, I still don't have them to this day because it's like, what the fuck are you doing? Like you're actually insane. We're going to get into like dating apps and like hookup culture later. But I feel like dating apps are so horrible.

Like whoever invented them, like they're super smart because like obviously people fall into it, but like they're such a horrible thing to like put into people's like scope. Like I think it's such a horrible thing. Actually, did you know I met John on Hinge? What? Shut up to you, John. No, yeah, that's how we met. Wait, what? Yeah. And now I love John. I love John and friends now.

And I think in that sense, if it can turn into a friendship, but if you're looking for like a relationship, it's not. I did a whole TED talk last semester. Oh my God, we're so going to get into that. I'm so pumped. Okay. Crazy. So now we're going to get into first boyfriend slash breakups.

I just want to say the boyfriend I spoke about prior, I don't consider him to be my first boyfriend like at all because obviously it was middle school and for me that was in a relationship, but I just wanted to preface that. So first boyfriend's breakups, thoughts. Oh my gosh, just open up a question. Should I have an alias actually? Please do. What should that be? Yeah. Mark, like I don't know. Mark, what's going to come up your tongue? Johnny. I mean, it's a J name. It's okay.

Johnny. Or I'll just say my ex. Whatever you want, honestly. Yeah. Where do I even start? Obviously, whatever you're comfortable with, please don't go in depth if you don't want to. Yeah. Well, I mentioned earlier that like I got into my, I had my first boyfriend, I think I was 15. I was a sophomore in high school and this is when our family moved back to the United States.

And I was like, I'd miss my freshman year at our high school, which contacts very much a bubble where we live in California. And everyone has their established friend groups and like I had people that I knew in middle school and people that I was friends with. But like two years later after everyone's like navigated that in high school their first year, it was a different situation.

And I think that is honestly like where I want to start with prefaceing my like first relationship because it's part of the reason that like at least on my side it ended up going so badly. Where I kind of came back to California with this sort of like righteousness like mentality. Like, I don't know. I was like, I'm too cool for this. Like there's nothing that I get from like going to school besides learning, you know, like I wasn't really in it for like the right reasons, I guess.

And but I still tried. And like the first day of school, I'll always remember this. One of my friends still friends to this day, she, her brother would drop us off at school and he also went to school. So I know. And that we like entered the quad for sophomores, you know, like in front of the school. And I go up to this group of friends that I like knew I've known my entire life and I was friends with them before I left for France. And I was like, Hey guys, like I'm re entering the world.

Like this is my entrance. You know, and I'm like, Hey guys, how are you? Like how have the past two years been like what's up? Like, you know, I'm trying to like be friendly. Yeah. Anyway, and they didn't say anything. They were just staring at you. They're just like, Oh, hi. And I'm like, Okay, that was fine. And then they go, they're like, Oh my God, what is that girl Megan doing here? Why does she still go to the school? What is she wearing?

You're Megan. No, Megan's just this girl who's like in a different like she's in the quad somewhere and they're like all looking at her. And I didn't know who Megan was like she was just someone. And I go, Oh, okay. Well, that's it. I'm done. That's my person. Yeah. I'm like, well, no, not that's my person. I just like, I don't know who this Megan is again. It was just I, they said that thing. I was already trying to come in with like a positive outlook, but also like be open.

And then I gave it a shot and they were just like rude from the start. So I'm like, you know what, I don't care for this. Like I'm done. And from there on out, I like very much closed myself off to a lot of friendships. And which was like fine and bad. But then I like met this guy, Johnny, and we like kind of clicked. We've known each other for a while at that point. Like we went to the same. We had this like one class together, like fourth and fifth grade for like special kids.

Like the advanced. Yeah. Like something like that. Not, no, not, no, not special needs. No, like it was just like whatever. And so we knew each other from fourth and fifth grade and like his best friend and they were still friends. And I, I remember writing in my journal when I was in France, which I, you know, still look back on sometimes. I was like, everyone back home is so ugly except for, and then I named Johnny and then my middle school crush.

And we weren't friends, but like we'd known each other. And so we got introduced by a mutual friend and we just started hanging out, I guess. And I really liked him. He was super smart, really artistic. He was really like cool and like different, but he was also very mature for his age, meaning that he like did a lot of the things that you did pretty early on. And so I kind of fell in with him and his front group, which was like, I loved all those guys, but it was sort of my mistake.

Number one was not having a friend group and like, as I told you, I went in with sort of like, Oh, you know, I don't really like him. Like we're friends, like whatever. We'll see what he's handsome. Like we'll see where this goes. And then it just, the first year was like a normal high school relationship. And then after that, it started to go like really off the rails, I think his mental health declined.

And it, like, I don't even, there's so many things Melody like to explain, but it ended up being like a very codependent relationship. And I ignored the feelings that I first had. I didn't listen to myself and I didn't have the sort of like security of a social group to fall back on. So I felt stuck. Yeah. And that was like a really bad point. And I felt like things in the relationship, I felt so ashamed to tell anyone else. I didn't have anyone else to tell those things to.

And so that was something that I lacked the awareness when I was 15, 16 years old. If I feel ashamed for something that's going on in my life, that's very real. And I'm not telling anyone about it. Like that's a hit number one. And it just ended up being really bad. Like all, like all the things you can think of went on, I guess. And it got to a point where it was like very on and off relationship.

Where like he would mention this girl and he would like sneak out at night and see the girl and I'm like, what are you guys doing? And he was lying all the time. And then we would like break it off and he would go like hook up with that girl afterwards that happened like several times. Yeah. Or he would try and make him move on people and they're like, hold on, you're dating Jamie. He's like, no, we're not. I'm like, what the fuck. So it was just a disaster.

And the codependency was very real where because of his mental health and like his issues, I felt responsible for them because I was only one who was telling them to. And so what happened was, and I only realized this afterwards, that my self worth was based off of how happy I could make him. And so if he was upset, then I was upset. Like if something wrong happened in his life, it became my fault because one, he made it that way. And also I put that on myself.

So it just became this like really horrible system of codependency over time that I was just so unaware of like the red flags that were going on. And you know, when I left his house, I would cry every single time when I went home. Like he made me cry on my 17th birthday because we were broken up and we had to sit next to each other in physics class because he was like his last name is right after mine. Yeah. And he didn't say a word. I'm like, obviously, you know, it's my birthday.

He turned around, like looked at me and said sup. And I'm like, oh, my God, that was painful. And then we got to do a lab together. We were lab partners. And he was like, yeah, so anyways, I'm dating so and so now. To you, he said that? Yeah. And I'm like, are you joking me? Like, why do you have to put this on me every day? Like you're such an idiot. And he broke up with me many times, even though I should have broken up with him. Like it was just a disaster. But that's just to give everyone.

There's a lot of things to fill in there. But like if you can relate to any of that structure of a relationship, then like I'm here with you. Yeah. So there's lots of things because we kind of spoke about this when we had our call. I first want to talk about the self worth dependent on your boyfriend's well being, which I don't think I struggled with it to the point you did. But in my first real relationship, I found myself being like very apologetic.

And so I would like, he would have a shit day and like kind of put it on me and I would feel like horrible because like, what did I do? Can I do anything to make it better? Which like, okay, that's fine. Like as a girlfriend, you kind of want to make their day better. But also you shouldn't be putting that weight on your shoulders because if you do have a shit day, sure, like that's fine. We're human. You have those days. But don't like put it all on your don't like take a bead, go for a walk.

Don't call me like that's fine. But I struggled with that a lot. And I feel like I struggled with that in other relationships too. Not only with like boyfriends. Like I struggle with that, like with that, with my mom's relationship, like I feel like shit when my mom's when my mom's feeling like shit, like it makes me so mad, so upset.

And it's like, okay, like, no, you can't be doing that because like your mom's an adult, like you can't be like putting all of that on you and like she can handle her things on her own. It's okay to feel bad for them. But this like ongoing back and forth of like being dependent on each other for like happiness is like a really like, like it's just a horrible rabbit hole that is really hard to like dig yourself back up.

So I want to hear like maybe any advice or like any thoughts or Yeah, well, to your point, like sympathy is one thing or having empathy for someone else is a really like huge strength. But when you feel responsible for someone else's emotions to the point that you feel those emotions yourself is sort of a moment where you have to take a step back and ask yourself some questions. But there's so much in here. Like I think as girls, we have a tendency to play the therapist role for boys.

And that's not fair for either people. Because at the end of the day, me helping a boyfriend with his very like serious mental health issues is never going to fix it one because I'm not a therapist to because I'm in it. Like in this relationship with this person and I lack the perspective to actually be helpful. And it over time develops something that's really unhealthy that you start to take on accountability for the way that your partner or your friend or your parents are feeling.

And that's that's very, very toxic. Yeah, for sure. And it's the hard part is understanding that in the moment. It's easier to look back. I didn't realize this until way later when I started therapy at all. And I didn't understand like the part that I played in it, which I never blame myself by the way for it. I don't feel guilty or responsible for like the pain that I had in high school. I just think I didn't know any better. Yeah. And that was that.

But there's just a lot of questions you have to ask yourself. I mean, in any relationship, like there's it can never be healing unless it's done on your own or with a therapist or like, you know, a medical professional. And so whatever help that you feel like you can give another person is really not doing anything.

Yeah. And so what I had to ask myself and even like in my current relationship is like, am I helping him because I want him to be better or am I helping him because it makes me feel good. Yeah. So like selfishly. Yeah, which is super weird. And what you're talking about about apologizing to the boys or to your mother, whoever about something that you don't have to apologize for, that's a huge thing too.

I think that's a consequence of codependency is and I remember like a lot of instances of this happening where I apologize for something that I had no, no business. Yeah. No business apologizing for the first time that I ever like said something to Johnny saying that like I like, I don't know how to, it's not like a complaint, but like an issue that I wanted to talk about was that he never asked me how I was doing.

We talked about this and it sounds so trivial and basic and like just like an essential part to any. Yeah. How are you doing? But he never did that and it doesn't, it's not like for one, I want him to be curious about how I'm doing and how I'm feeling every day, but it was also like a basic principle of interacting with someone that he never did with me. Yeah. And he's like, Hey Johnny, why don't you ever ask me how I'm doing? And he's like, Oh, well, I just, I can just tell.

I'm like, you're not a mind reader. He's like, I can just tell like, and if you had a problem, you would just tell me. And I'm like, okay, interesting. And like maybe I would tell him over time, but it would happen with codependency and the nature of the relationship was so that I didn't feel comfortable telling him about the issues that I was feeling.

Yeah. And I was worried that of his response when I would bring something up that was like genuinely an issue, even if it was as serious as cheating. And I ended up being the one apologizing for those things. And that is a problem. Yeah, that's definitely a problem. And I also think it's important to take into consideration the fact that you were so young. And I feel like when people go through these things, that's such a fundamental age of like finding out who you are and growing up.

It is so detrimental because like how old are you now, you're 21, you just got into your second relationship. And like those years between how crazy was like the realizations and the growth you had to do and the work you had to do on yourself. Because all of those horrible things that happened in your first relationship happened at like 15, 16, 17, which is like those things are not supposed to happen.

Like in your first of all, in your first relationship, like that should not be your first example of love, you know, because then that ruins so many things which we're going to talk about, like trust and commitment issues. Like it ruins so many different things for people. I'm going through this right now. I have the worst trust issues. Like I cannot trust it, not even like mostly men, like if I get into a relationship cannot trust you.

Like even friendships also, I don't trust that your intentions are like right because I've like gone through so much with like different relationships in my life where it's like, I know you have ulterior motives. Like I know you're going to do something to like stab me in the back later. Like I cannot trust you. And that's the worst because you're low key just like preying on their downfall. I would do that too.

It's a horrible feeling to have because it's like you kind of know that it's like the little voice in the back of your head. Like you know you're kind of inventing these scenarios, but at the same time you can't help but like not believe them. Like you totally like you have this voice like pushing like to the forefront of your head like, oh, this person is going to stab you in the back. This person is going to fuck you over.

And it's just like a pile on of all these things you went through prior Joe. Well, no, I'm just agreeing with you. And I think Jamie has definitely helped me a lot with this, even though I haven't gone through like the same amount of like, I'll go through it first. Yeah. You don't have to. That's beautiful.

No. And like even commitment issues also like I like asked Joe the amount of times like I was talking to a guy what like three weeks ago, I was like terrified, like scared shitless that like this would turn into something more than a talking stage. Like I'm horrified because I feel like those two like go hand in hand, like trust and commitment issues where it's like, okay, I cannot commit to this person because I know I'm not going to be able to trust them like in the future.

It was holding you back from like letting it unfold naturally. Yeah. It's it's a really horrible feeling. And I find myself doing that in friendships also where like like first semester of college I was so closed off like one because I had a boyfriend and that was taking so much of my time that ended up like going down the fucking shit. Shoot whatever. That was long distance. He was in California. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It was it was crazy.

Um, but, um, still love him not in love with him, but like I think he's a great person. Not like that. I've been talking about my ex too much on this podcast. Not, but he was the only one that treated me with like decency and respect. Like I do have to kind of praise him for that. Yeah. Um, but no, yeah, I, we, I quoted you kind of, um, with the trust and commitment issues. Like you talked about self manipulation, how that's those things like kind of morph into a form of self manipulation.

I want to hear your thoughts on that. Trust and commitment. Like when you have trust and commitment issues, like you kind of convince yourself it's kind of a way of you manipulating yourself into not getting into things. Yeah. Yeah. This is super interesting. Yeah. I think for one, like when you're meeting people, sometimes the trust and commitment issues might work in your favor because you don't want to be overly trusting, overly forgiving.

And even though I went through like a series of traumatic things for a 16 year old, it definitely like, it set me back and then it took a really long time for me to like ever like a guy again, but it also meant that the next time I would was going to make it worth it and real because I can, I can sniff a red flag from miles away. Like I can just see it in like the first interaction. And I think in general, I'm a very non trusting person.

Um, and I think there, you know, three types of people, someone that sees the positive in people, some that sees the negative in people and then others who are just like neutral. And my friend, Ashlyn, who we were talking about yesterday, she's super neutral. She's like, she doesn't have any expectations or she's not looking for like something that's bad about them. She's just waiting to see and then she's going to make her judgment. Oh my God. I want to be like that. Which is so great.

Oh my God. That's amazing. Where for me, it's like you're guilty and proven innocent. I mean, that's what I relate to that. I feel like, especially with guys, I'm like, there's something wrong with you for sure. Like there's, there's no way you are the way you are. Like there's like you have skeletons in your closet for sure. And they're horrible. Like, no, it's, it's awful.

I don't know if I can sniff a red flag from a mile away because I've definitely been prone to like allowing red flags into my life. But I feel like now, yeah, I feel like now I'm able to like kind of decipher those red flags, but I don't go looking for them because then I feel like, but I feel like that's something I've come to terms with like reese very recently. Cause like if I go looking for them, I feel like, okay, then I'm setting myself up for failure at the end of the day.

Like it's not a good thing. Can you say something? Please do. I don't think you go looking for them. I think you're right about that. But I think like when you see something, you're going to over analyze it and eventually turn it into a red flag when it doesn't necessarily have to be one. That's very true. That's the sort of like self manipulation. Yeah, it's like convincing yourself of something that isn't necessarily true. I agree about a hundred percent.

And it's, it's a very scary thing to come to terms with. I've talked about it with my therapist ad nauseam. She's so sick of me, but I mean, I have to heal from that in order. Trust is a foundation of every single relationship and you can't have one unless there's trust there. I agree. I had a very untrusting first relationship and a lot of friendships that I was like stabbed in the back or there was some kind of falling out and I like judge them for something that they did.

And I tend to see people in like these black and white, which I realized after is like, you have to be fully well rounded and I hold them to like the expectations that I hold myself to. And if they can't meet that, then like goodbye. And that's probably why I don't have very many friends is because I hold them to such high standards, which is very unrealistic. And like everyone has skeletons in their closet too. Like you were saying, and you can't judge everyone for those things.

Like you and I have them. Joe might have some. Maybe. I was like, no, I'm perfect. And yeah, you have to let those things like unfold naturally. And if there is something that they say that's deceiving and that's rude or offensive, then you can judge them for that, but you can't like just try and constantly mind read or perceive that these might happen because mind reading is not actually a thing. It's so not. And I feel like some people need to realize that.

Like I was definitely like that, like before in power relationships where I was like, okay, like over analyzing. I'm such an over analyzer. Like I nitpick everything and I create these scenarios in my head where I'm like, okay, you're going stir crazy. Like this is not normal. Like please take things for what they are. And like some things do not have like hidden meanings behind them. Like it's okay for things to be the way they are. Like, but something I definitely need to work on.

But like, do you want to say something, Joe? I don't know. I was just kind of bring I was going to bring it back to the conversation you were telling me last night about you and your therapist because I feel like with my last relationship, Jamie was always like towards the when we weren't dating, but like with that person, Jamie was always telling me like, you're setting him up to fail.

Yeah. Yeah. And I thought that was really interesting when you were telling me last night about like your third therapist just saying like, you trust him, you know, he's a good person. And to like let him do these things, like understand it, but don't like hold it to him and move on. Yeah. 100%. And that's like a legacy of the trust issues I had before. And I want to like get into like on the topic of trust and commitment of like what it's like to get back into relationship.

I don't know if that's a different question. We are like in the getting over X slash closure. Okay. That's slightly different. Okay. Then get into it, please. Yeah. So then we can go back to Joe's point because that's super important. There's like only so much healing you can do in between relationships, right? And I tried to work endlessly to give everything to myself, like all the things that I saw externally from my ex, I was like, I can no longer rely on anyone for these things.

Like I'm only giving them to myself. I'm going to have a friend group and I would like, I would literally make audio recordings late at night be like, you cannot have another boyfriend until you do these things. And then I'd let, I just talked for like 30 minutes. And like one of them was having a friend group because that's super important to like have people that you can trust and rely on and that can meet other needs that your partner can't, which is fine.

Because I think also these days we put everything into one person. And I'm personally responsible for that is that we, we need this person to do and meet everything for us. And that's very unrealistic and that's a lot of pressure. No healthy relationship should be that sort of like one way street. Um, but so as I like in those four years when I was single, I was going to therapy.

I was doing all the self work and it got to a point where I was like, you know what, I could be single for the rest of my life. I feel good. Like I'm, I'm at my peak right now. And then I met this guy that I liked and I'm like, oh shit, what do I do? Because we were friends first. We like respected each other, which was huge. We valued each other as like friends in our lives and people that we could give advice to and we had so much fun together.

And then it like progressed past that point and I had to ask myself like, okay, I'm literally at this moment where I'm like, I have to decide whether to commit or not because otherwise it's unfair. And it's weird because I am not like, I'm not a hookup person. It's not that I wanted another person or like, you know, the commitment, it wasn't that I couldn't commit. It was like, there was something else in me that was not about like, oh, I need to keep myself open.

It was, I just, for some reason I can't do it. Like something's holding me back. And so it's like, no matter how much self work you do in between relationships, you're going to get to a point where there's a boy you like, there's a girl you like, and you just have to jump in. Because there's, there's like, it opened the can of worms and I finally entered another relationship of like all the things that I couldn't work on myself that could only be tested with another person.

And my boyfriend was saying like, as a friend, like sometimes we would put the front hat on and I would have to like consciously put the front hat on when he was telling me about his like exes. He put the front hat on and he was like, Jamie, just so you know, as your friend, like, you have to just trust someone.

Like you just have to trust them and see what happens because you're never going to get to a point unless you consciously like decide to do that and be okay with something like a mistake happening later or being okay with like being betrayed or like, you know, we fear the possibility of someone letting us down so much that we never even give them the opportunity to trust them, which is huge.

And so that goes back to Joe's point is that even in the relationship, there's so many lingering effects from my ex where he'll say something and I'll assume the worst and I'll assume the most distrusting thing. And to the point where it's not even when he says like, I make up words in my head. It's so weird. And I was hearing you guys last night, I was like, Oh, Jamie. Yeah, like I totally interpreted things, which is super unfair.

And like my that distrusting lens that I put on every single day to self protect is like not doing me any good and it's setting him up to fail like Joe said. Yeah. And it's a really horrible feeling. And I feel like back to the point of like being single and like you give yourself all these things, but then you come to the point where you like kind of have to commit.

I feel like it's something you owe to yourself, you know, especially after all these years of being single, like you owe it to yourself, like not to be selfish or anything, but you do owe that to Jamie to like try, like just do it, you know, just like as if someone's pushing you, you know, like you have to push yourself to like, Okay, I'm going to do it. Like that's it. Like that's literally what it comes down to is just like making that self conscious choice. Which is a big thing for sure.

I feel like you have definitely a special case, like horrible, like emotionally abusive relationship, for years being single and then you have like that little come to Jesus moment where it's like, Oh, no, I like someone like what's going on. Yeah, it's definitely like a crazy thing. I'm not at that point yet. I don't think I've only been single for like almost a year, like 11 months now actually. You broke up with me right before my birthday. So the milestone is the day before your birthday.

I think that's a good thing to celebrate though. It was so sad. I got so drunk. I vomited all over my best friend, like my ex-best friend, like the party was at her house. I vomited all over her mom's like, you know how people have like nice living rooms and then living rooms for like regular people. I threw up all over the night. And we flipped the cushion. She does not know to this day. It was so bad and I did such regrettable things that night too.

Like it was, I didn't give myself the time I needed. I was being very impulsive and it was just like, I'll tell you guys after this because I'm not going to incriminate myself on this in case someone listens. But no, yeah. Now I want to talk about being single those four years for me the past 11 months. Let's talk about that being single. The experience now obviously you're in a relationship, but what was that like being finally being released from the shackles of Johnny? What was that like?

I would say like the first, it took me like a year to get over him. Not that I like still liked him, but to get over those like impulses that had been ingrained into me from like the codependency I was talking about, there's sort of like the reflexes that I had. And the problem was that he wouldn't stop communicating with me. Yeah, we talked about that. Please like no communication is so key. Oh my gosh, Joe, I know you feel strongly about this. Please, please, please like die.

We're all here right now. But I also feel like this was a super interesting situation where as like Johnny's family was a huge part of our family's lives like after they broke up, which I don't think a lot of people have to go through. His name was constantly bringing up or getting brought up like his family was constantly around. And also like he was communicating with you like he was reaching out.

So you never really had like the time to like fully for not even forget about him, but like have that space without him. Yeah, 100%, which is super crucial. And I never believed in blocking someone. I thought like I it's the same thing where I told my mom once I wanted to get a flip phone and I've been waiting for this thing to break it on the case. I'm like, I just won't have a phone anymore.

And she's like, Jamie, if you really want to live without a phone, then it's better to be able to control yourself with the temptation than to block it out completely. And I know. I know. And so that hit because it hit so many other things. And that I think has to do with like blocking people on social media or blocking their numbers was like I'd rather know that I had no desire to talk to him with, you know, his name sitting right on my phone. That's such a good point.

I'm gonna add to that after. Then like blocking it. And you know, but sometimes it's like really helpful to just block them because it's like unsafe for them to be contacting you. And like I had moved abroad at this point. And to Joe's point, we broke up like the last time, I guess, on a family vacation. And I remember the story family so much like to this day. I like cried the last time I saw his mom and his grandmother. They're amazing. So that sucks. But yeah, I had moved abroad.

I was living in Ireland. So I was like, this is my free break. Like this is amazing. I don't have to talk to anyone. I'm on a completely different time zone. And he would call me at like six in the morning. Like almost every day I would wake up to a FaceTime from him. FaceTime is fucking crazy. Oh my God. And we were still like, we were still talking. Like I was definitely playing a part in it. And it was like pretty innocent.

I found out later that he was dating someone that whole time, but he was telling me like I still love you. Like I'll never find someone else like you. And I'm just realizing that now. I'm like, yeah, no duh. But like stop trying to cramp my style. And it was very much like, it's so classic that he's trying to prevent me from like having my independence. It's so classic. It's such a classic trope. Yeah. It's like, please stop.

Yeah. Kind of to your point of what your mom said, which I think is like, I never thought of that. But like, I feel like we, some people do that unintentionally. Like I kind of did that. Like I kind of came to that realization because like my last ex again, love him. He was the best ex ever. I would never get back together with him because too much happened. But like when we broke up, it didn't end on bad terms, but obviously like a breakup. It's like, oh, like I fucking hate him.

He's a piece of shit. Like in the moment, you know, and I was like so ready to press that block button. But I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. But at the beginning it was kind of like out of spite because like the next day was my birthday and I knew I was going to be looking cute like in my dress or whatever. So it's like, I want him to fucking see this. Like at the beginning it was like kind of in that sense. But after I was like, like I have the ability, but I'm not doing it.

And then he ended up calling me. He called me like what five times last semester, like after we broke up the first semester, he called me once like the first time I was so confused because I had not to lead it. Like I removed the contact, but his number like I still knew what his number was and he like called me and I saw the like area code and like I saw like the, you know how it says like the state. And so I was like, well, I don't know anyone else from California.

There's only my uncle and I know his ass is sleeping. It was like 2am for them. And I was like, like, should I answer? I was with my friend at the time and I was like, okay, I'm going to answer. I'm going to put him on speaker and like you told me what to say. And like we just started talking. It was a regular conversation. Like he was super giddy though. Like he was like almost too happy to hear my voice and I was like, oh, I don't like this like at all.

But I was trying to like keep my cool because I was still not over him. So I was like, I wanted to be like giddy also like, oh my God, I miss you so much. And it's like, no, like you have to stop yourself. Like you cannot say those things, but it's just nice to have that ability where it's like, okay, like he's there, but I don't, I don't need to like call him or text him. Like I don't feel that urge anymore, which is such a nice thing.

And I feel like that kind of plays into like the closure part or like getting over someone. It's such a nice thing. Like I do love a block button, but like not, not in that way. There's certain times when it's definitely necessary. I'm like, I would tell a friend, like I think you just need to block him because this is too much, but it's really not healthy to be communicating afterwards. Like sure. And like a couple months you can check in house life.

How are you like just because you're curious about someone that you cared about, but especially in a relationship that was not healthy, like he's literally just throwing that like fishing hook or something and trying to reel me back in. And that wasn't healthy, especially when I was literally across the world trying to do my own thing. I'm shocked he didn't book a flight. That would have been fucking crazy.

Oh my God. Yeah, no, but he, it was like, it was all for show, I think, I don't know, but it was a lot to be like receiving all that stuff from him. And I just kind of stopped responding, stopped engaging and eventually like a year later it died out. And I like haven't spoken to him since, which is amazing. Yeah. But it definitely like stopped me from healing. So when I say that I wasn't over him, it wasn't that I was still in love with him or so liked him.

It was just that like, there was no freedom for me to heal when I was still in contact with him. And he was still playing that shit. And I found out always dating someone while he was telling me all these things. And I think it's such an interesting story because after all the shit that he did to me and that like the weird stuff that we did together, it wasn't cheating. It wasn't like emotional abuse or verbal abuse. It was on FaceTime once. Like this was the thing that released me.

I remember this. It was the day before my birthday. Yeah. The day before I think I turned 19 maybe. Was it 20? No, it was 19. It was my first year in college. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. And this was during lockdown in Ireland, which was sucky. And I was writing in my journal. Actually no, step back. He called me and he's like, you know what, Jimmy? Fine. I'll move to Europe for you. I'll go anywhere. As long as weed's legal, I'll just do it. It's no problem.

I'm like, where is this coming from? And he's like, yeah, it's fine. We'll have a cabin somewhere and all the outside chopping wood and you'll be in the kitchen cooking. And that for whatever reason, not the cheating, not anything else, that was what sent me. I was disgusted from that point on. It was the audacity to say something like that for whatever reason, the sexism, the misogyny, it was that that sent me over the edge.

And all of a sudden it was a crazy moment where I went, oh my God, I'm freed. It's done. It happened. I had my moment. And I wrote a diary entry that was saying, it was like, this is your moment, all caps, saying the best you can do is keep it for a friend, but you have to remember the power it is to be by yourself because you'll never get that back. And it was so powerful and I felt liberated. And I went grocery shopping to get stuff for a wine night for my birthday. And it's so weird.

I think it was a universe thing. And I go into the cheese section for like a cheese board. Can you use a different name for it? What? Okay, you got to like, this is your own problem deal. Just take your headphones off. Joe doesn't like cheese, so. She hates it. I'm going to the cheese section and the cheese boy, we call him cheese boy, like the guy behind the counter at this grocery store. Oh my God. It was just like he locked eyes. No, I don't know what his name was.

His name is cheese boy for all that matters. We like locked eyes and it was like, if I were to have a love at first sight moment, it was this. We locked eyes. It was like, oh my God, who are you? Who are you? And we were laughing. We were just like talking. He gave me free stuff. And I was like, that was so crazy. And I don't know if it's like the universe putting it out there for me, which I definitely believe in.

Or it was like the energy that I was giving out because of that release was allowing people to like, in turn connect with me or something, you know, but that was like a huge moment. And after that, I felt very liberated. Wow. And we're going to go on the closure. And so this is like very much a follow up. Okay. Wow. That's amazing. Oh my God. That's such a beautiful story. I know. It was crazy. I hadn't heard that word yet. I never talked to him the choose boy after that though.

Oh. I mean, it's okay. I hope he's doing okay in Ireland. He looked like Nile Hornet. Hornet. Horn. I don't like that. Me either. No, but like, are you referring to the correct one? The one direction guy? Yeah. The blonde one? Yeah, but like better. He wasn't blonde. He was like Burnett, but he had like blue eyes. Like he had blue eyes and. So not Nile Horn. No, it wasn't him, but he's also Irish. Okay. But anyway, he was cute. I think so too. She doesn't really know them.

Well, it's not hair styles. Definitely not. No. No. Could like a mix between the two you guys, like brown hair, blue eye. He was cute. Okay. I trust your judgment. Thank you. I trust 19 year old Jamie. I don't know. As for me being single. I don't think I've had a specific moment where I was like, because again, I was never in like, in a relationship where it was like, I need to be released from this. But like, I do think I'm over him for sure. Like I'm not in love with him anymore.

He's always like, I told Joe this, he's the one I'm going to tell like my kids about for sure. Like this was like for sure. Like the boyfriends prior to that don't matter to me. Like you were not your friend. Like you were not a boyfriend whatsoever. But this kid, like I was head over heels in love with him. It was crazy. Like I genuinely thought I'm going to build my life with this person. I'm going to marry this person. I have kids. And I was so young too.

But it's just like that unshakable feeling where it's like, I see you in my future. Like you're my future husband. You're the future father of my kids and whatever. No. Yeah. It was crazy. No. It was nice because it was reciprocated and I know for a fact it was reciprocated because I knew this kid for like not forever, but like for a really long time before and like we were friends before too, which was really nice.

And so he's the one I'm always going to like, if my daughter asked me about like boy advice, he's the first one like I'm going to tell her about or whatever. But I kind of like being single. I love it. There's no like attachment to anything honestly. Yeah. And I feel like I because I was definitely I did have a boy crazy phase in my life where I was like constantly like not in and out of relationships like in and out of like situations where I was like, please take a seat.

Like you're one, you're too young for this too. This is not you're trying to like fill a gap in your life for sure. I totally forgot that this is about being single. The question in the first place. I feel like I went on a tangent. No, but I like where it went. So much there. It led to a good segue for getting over someone in closure. So I just want to tell an anecdote. I love anecdotes and then in turn something my therapist told me way later. It's gonna be a good segue for our therapy segment.

Yes. So as Joe mentioned, our families like my ex's family and our family super close friends. And after I think it was Christmas time. My first year in college, like when this stuff was going on, they came over for like, what ended up being a really fun night. We had karaoke. We all got super drunk. Like it was so fun. Was he there? He was there, which at the time I was like, okay, that's fine. I guess whatever.

Now it would be like absolutely not because I think I don't know how I would react, which I'm very curious to test at some point. But there ended up being a moment where we were alone in the bathroom and he started talking about a friend, like a mutual friend. He was like, I can't believe this guy. He's like cheating on all these girls. Like he can't keep one at a time. And he was like ranting about this guy. I'm like, wait a second. You did all of those things to me.

Like who are you to talk about this? And he goes, yeah, Jamie, you know about that. Like I really want to like, I'm not sure if he actually used the word sorry. But he's like, you know, I was 16. I was stupid. Like I didn't know what I was doing. I was really immature. And maybe he said, I just want to say I'm sorry or something, but I highly doubt it. And I go, Oh, wow, you know what, Johnny? That's like very nice of you to say.

And you know what, like as shitty as that all was, I really learned a lot and I feel like I'm a better person for it. And it's like put me so much ahead. While I'm saying that sentence, he walks out of the room. I remember when you told me mid sentence, he just leaves and I'm like, what the fuck. And I was so mad and I'm like, are you joking me? Like once again, this guy is apologizing and it just, it will never. Jesus. It like it will never be that moment.

Like he's incapable of saying an apology. He's incapable of hearing someone out. It's just not part of who he is. Yeah. And I will never forget that moment. And years later, I talked maybe like two years, actually, I talked to my current therapist about it. And she was like, you know what closure is a myth, Jimmy, because closure is giving up control, putting your emotions in the other person's hand and allowing them to do to give you something that you need.

And you can't truly get over someone if you're getting that from the other person. It has to be completely on your own because you're never going to have that perfect moment. Like what we see in the movies or TV shows where like a broken up couple, they meet back up and they're like, you know what, I'm so sorry. Like I still love you. Oh, it doesn't exist. Yeah. It's a complete myth.

And so if you're, if you find yourself like going back to your ex, trying to text them, trying to post that picture to get their attention. Like, it is doing you so much harm. It is. It's really, really bad. And like it takes so much self control though to like stop yourself before you get to that moment because it's never going to be what you're looking for. It's never going to be that moment that you pictured and it's not going to, it's not going to serve you any good.

Wow. Yeah. That is profound. Closure is not real. That's, it's coming from a real therapist. So please, I never claimed to be a therapist and I have Jamie. So yeah, it's coming from a real therapist. So speaking of therapy, I always talk about how I'm an avid therapy goer. I have two therapists, one in Haiti and one here. And I know Joe recently started going, which I'm so proud of. Joe, I think that's because of our Jera, her Joe era.

And Joe told me so much and now you have told me so much about how you also are an avid therapy goer. So I want to hear about how you got into that and the reasons for it and how it's helped you or how it's been going. Yeah. Therapy has been the best thing in my entire life. Agreed. I think the first time I like wanted a therapist was actually in high school and I was anxious all the time from my relationship and my ex went to a therapist.

So I didn't really know that that was a thing until high school probably. And I remember working up the nerve to ask my mom for a therapist. Did I ever tell you this? I don't remember. Yeah. And she was like, okay, Jamie, if that's what you need, then we'll talk about it. No worries, but I just want to be able to support you and know what's going on in your life. And I'm like, yeah, that's fine, but I think I need a professional to speak to. And it never ended up happening.

And then after I left Ireland and I was seeing ghosts and stuff and I thought that I like might be schizophrenic. I was like really worried. So I'm like, okay, you know what? I need this right now. And it was a good moment to have a therapist because I was moving. I had just left a foreign country that I was living in for two years and I was moving to New York City. And so like a life transition is a really good time to get a therapist. And so I just went to better help because it was easy.

I didn't have to like, I didn't have to ask anyone like I just did it and 30 minute sessions or something. You can text them as much as you want, which was a really great like starting point. But I don't think I really clicked with my therapist that much. And like therapists, you definitely have to shop around for. For sure. Like, not like it's not a one size fits all like you definitely have to make it personalized. Yeah. And that part of that is having a therapist that you really sync with.

I remember I told Joe my first therapy session ever after my parents divorce. I just stood there like I sat there looked at the lady for an hour and a half did not say a word. I think she only knew my name and I was like, Nope, I'm not telling you shit. Like I don't trust you. I'm telling you anything. So it's definitely something like that is personalized to everyone's like character. 100%.

Yeah. And I think you definitely have to like put in the work on your end to make sure this is someone that you feel comfortable with. Because you're not going to get enough out of it if you guys don't like. So I think I was with that therapist for a couple months and then maybe maybe like, I don't know, five months into living in New York. I found a different therapist who is based in the city and she's amazing. She like is part of a practice.

It's all young women and to pride themselves on being like for one a therapist and for two like a young woman that you can tell boy issues to. And like friend things because sometimes I feel embarrassed about that. So trivial when I'm talking to like an adult and that like my problems aren't real because it's just like friend groups that I have to learn anyway. But that style really like, like I really agreed with that. And yeah, therapy has been like the best thing I've ever done for myself.

It's been so much fun and it takes so much work to I used to think that journaling was a form of like self therapy, which is kind of true. Like it's a really good thing, a really good exercise to do to become more self aware and like reflect on the things that you've done. But there's nothing like a therapist and yeah, having no person. Yeah, and it I don't know. It's not always like you can't just like show up to therapy and expect something to happen.

It takes about like 10 sessions for them to really understand you. And then it takes you talking about everything, all of yourself for them to be able to draw lines to your, your childhood, your past, your family members, whatever other major events in your life. But it also takes like, like you it's a really good way to like model an ideal relationship because with with no stakes. Yeah. So I remember my first therapy session with this new girl, maybe my second one.

And she had this sort of style of saying like, Oh, well, you should be so proud of yourself for doing this or that. And I'm like, Hey, that doesn't work for me. Like, I don't need you to tell me the things I did well. Like, I don't really like I just tune out when you say it when you like praise me. I don't like that. And she was like, Okay, I won't do it again. And like those are things that are very useful. Like communication styles when there's zero stakes to be able to practice that with.

And a principle that she said is like, I need you to be honest with two people, yourself and your therapist. And that is so powerful, I think, because there's so many things that maybe you're in denial about and things that you feel ashamed to tell other people. And you're never going to get like the full benefit of therapy unless you're very honest with those two people.

And in general, if there's something that you feel ashamed to tell your even your therapist, you got to take a look at that last night. Like if there's certain things like if you're dealing with something and you're like or you're acting upon something or thinking something and you're scared to tell your therapist, that's when you know like there's a line to be drawn. Yeah, 100%. I agree with that. I love therapy. I cannot say it enough.

I was not the biggest fan at all before because I think like for you, you went into it like yourself. Like you, you kind of had that push where it was like, Okay, Jamie, you need you need this. But me, I was kind of like forced into it because like parents divorce and like, obviously, something was wrong with me. Well, not wrong with me, but I was in doing too well.

And so I think it's my aunt, my mom's sister, who like kind of pushed it on my mom and then my mom pushed me and I was like, I'm not fucking telling a random stranger what I'm feeling like I'm fine. I love saying I'm fine. Like, I'm fine. Just not. I'm fine. It's okay. Like it's whatever. Like I'll deal with it on my own. It's so bad. Like it's whatever. But so that failed horribly. But then maybe like a couple months later, I started going back and it was the same woman.

And I was like, you know what? I did not try. Like I did not. And mind you, I was like 13 1213. And I was like, okay, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna try. And then we started talking and whatever. Like he said, like she, she didn't even get to the divorce like before seven sessions. Like we talked about so many other different things like home life, relationships, whatever, before we actually got to the like big like life event that happened that I wanted to like actually deal with and get over.

And then I moved to Miami. And then I was like, okay, I can't see this woman anymore. Like I'm sad. Like, but I moved to Miami for like six months because I fucking hated the United States. I was like, not doing this anymore. So I went back and then I started seeing her again, which was amazing. And I feel like that's when I got like one of my first boyfriend who ended up cheating on me, whatever. But thank God for her. So started seeing her again.

And then when I came here, I kind of stopped seeing her because like I was in another relationship and the ex that we love so much. And like I was like, I don't need therapy. I'm so happy. And then that ended up like horribly. And so I found a therapist here in Boston, which I still see her. I love her so much. And I still see the therapist and Haiti for like other things like that. She's kind of like in my back pocket. Like when I feel like I need her, I text her.

I call like I'm super comfortable with her. Like to that point where I can like just call her up, you know, and have like a five minute, five minute conversation, 10 minute conversation, you know. So I don't know. Like parents divorce was definitely the jumpstart for it, but so many other life events happen where I was like, okay, like it's good to keep going to have that one person that I can like really vent to like without any boundaries.

Like I can just like word vomit and like she's going to help. That's such a nice thing to have because like as close as you may be with like other people in your life, they're never going to be able to truly help you because like I always say this. I'm like so close. My mom is like my sister. Like I tell her she knows everything about my life, but there's only so much she can do to help me like navigate those things. So I feel like it's really good to have that impartial person.

And I feel like impartiality is a huge thing in therapy. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I feel like that's please guys. Everyone I think everyone needs therapy like maybe not to the same level as other people, but it's such an amazing thing. It's probably annoying to hear though people who go to therapy or like everyone needs to get a therapy, you know, but it's like you don't even have a problem to go to therapy. Exactly.

And it's really cool if you go on like your own well, but it's also totally acceptable if someone else like puts you in that position. But I also had like kind of rules going into it of like, I don't want to be diagnosed with something and I don't want to come out of this thinking I have more problems than I thought, you know. Yeah. And to your point, Mel, they're having a therapist and someone that's like their sole purpose is kind of to help you and for you to like vent to them.

It really makes all your relationships better, not just because you're becoming more wise for going to therapy, but because you don't have to use other people as an outlet, which is kind of what we were talking about at the beginning to Yeah. Of how it codependent relationships form. It makes your other relationships much better for that. So much better.

You can tell them things you can tell them like insight of things that you've learned in therapy, but you don't have that expectation of them like fixing all your problems and solving everything for you, which is such a nice thing. Joe, I want to hear your thoughts as a new newcomer. Please chime in. I started therapy a couple weeks ago. Jamie's been pressing me on this for a really long time.

It's like, it's something that I've been wanting to do, but I've just been so lazy on like actually acting on it. But I have been loving it. I started got I like, I locked myself in the room and I kick Melody out and every time I come out to tell her, the room's ready. I just feel like a new person like weight on a cloud. Yes, I'm like constantly smiling. I think I like jump to jump the dancer out. I'm like, I was so good. And it's like, what'd you talk about? I don't even know.

It was just so good. But something you were talking about was like journaling and how that's like kind of a form of like self therapy, which I agree with. And also something super interesting that I find myself doing sometimes when I'm journaling is like, I'm writing down things, but I'm like twisting my words. And I'll like, I'll stop, I'll pause and I'll think like, why am I like not being like 100% myself in this? Like nobody is reading this, but me.

And it just makes me think that like, that's so interesting because like, maybe I'm not myself 100% of the time. I'm like, I'm not even be real on paper, like to myself, like, it just makes me think that like when I'm with people, maybe I'm ashamed to like say my actual thoughts.

So like, it was just like a super interesting realization to me, which is like something that I have to be like conscious of when I am journaling, because it's like, it's only going to help me to write down like what I'm actually thinking. And like, when I do journal, it's like, I'll just start with a random thought. I won't even like know exactly what I want to say. But like over time, like when I'm writing, it's like, I'll just figure out all these things that I didn't even know existed.

You just get in these tangents and it's like, you can write however you want, you can say whatever you want, like nobody is reading this, hopefully. But yourself, if you even decide to come back and read this later, it's just like, it's really interesting though seeing that like, at least for me, like that I'm not completely honest all the time.

And it just makes me think like how I am with other people then, but like what Jamie was saying, like being so honest with your therapist, because it's like, if you're not, then why are you even in this? You're not going to get the proper help. You're not going to like, you're going to say stories. And if you twist them even the slightest, then like, they're not going to have a proper understanding of like what's going on and they're going to help you in a different direction.

Like if you are actually so honest and like, they are so useful. And like it's nice like not having, yeah, also like being able to put that in a separate bucket, like all those problems. Exactly. That's such a good point. And like she's just made me realize like so many things that I just never would have put together on my own, which like I'll call Jamie after my like therapy session and I'll tell her something. And even Jamie is like, wait, what? I'm like, oh my God.

It's like, it's such a, it's like the most obvious things too, and it's like, how could I have not seen that? But like sometimes it's so hard because you have so much else going on in your mind. But like when they're just like an unbiased like open person, then like they're going to come to these conclusions for you. Yeah. I don't know. I just think I think it's honestly like so amazing. I'm so excited. It is amazing.

And it's like, it's kind of hard to start off with because like there's so much that you feel the need to tell them right away because it's like, I want her to know all these things about me so that like she can actually understand these current problems. But like, they don't even really need to know that like sure it's going to be helpful in a few weeks when she does like know me a little bit better because like, I really just started like, I started really recently.

But it's so interesting like even the meta stuff that goes on in the therapist head that you don't hear too. Yeah. Because like even what how you choose to describe the people in your life is information for their not just what that person is like, but how you're presenting them. Yeah. How you present yourself. And that goes into journaling, which in my first podcast episode that I did that is unreleased. I think jealous. I was jealous to it. I'm maybe my family.

I talked about journaling because I think it's so important. This is pre therapy and it's such a good that you can provide to yourself and the act there's something about the act of writing on a piece of paper. That's very therapeutic, but that channels like some kind of stream of consciousness. Yeah. That doesn't happen on a screen because what happens when you're typing or texting or like even if you do it on your notes app, you're constantly like reevaluating everything that you write.

The leading editing. Yeah. Because that's how we are when we interact with technology is like somehow that like idea that an external person or force is going to see it. It's just that's the way it's modeled when we interact with technology. So it's just put it on piece of paper. And as Joe was saying, there's so many things you can look back on. And even in the process of writing, sometimes I've had moments where I'm like, holy shit, I'm a genius for saying this right now.

And I look back like she was so smart. Yeah. It's such a like for one, it's good to like even just act like even if you don't read it back, but for two as like a time capsule piece, because I'm a history major. And this is very important. And to see the thoughts that you had when you were younger, like I have journals going back to middle school. Oh my God, me too. Like the little lock ones. I have boxes of them under my bed and I can't wait to read them. It's so fun.

I would write like Dear Future Self. I would just so corny. But it's so cool to look back on and like remember all the thoughts and it's it's a good exercise for even like your memory. Like there's so many good things about journaling that you can do and like all the greats have journaled all the great like writers and philosophers going back have all journaled and kept like a piece of their own history, which you know, when we all get rich and famous, that's going to be very valuable.

That's going to be in our museum one day. I agree with that. And I was actually thinking about that the other day because I kind of took a journaling hiatus because I think I was using it in the wrong way because when I look at my journals from like the last two years of high school, it's all negative things. All I wasn't using it. I've done that before. It wasn't like an outlet to like, I feel like at the time I was thinking it was an outlet. Okay, let me get these negative thoughts out.

But it's like, oh my God, you were miserable like what the hell was possibly going on in your life for you to be having those thoughts. Like I have one like here with me from my junior year of high school. And I read it the other day because I restarted journaling because there's a ton of pages like blank pages left. So I was like, okay, let me use this up whatever.

So I was reading back and I was like, oh my like this made me so sad, but it's so nice to see like how far I've come kind of, you know, it's exactly. It's such a nice thing to have and look back on and I was actually like, I'm still in my height is because like I need to like figure out. Obviously there's no right way of journaling, but like I need to like make time to do that.

But I was watching like I recently restarted Grey's Anatomy and like I'm at the point where like the main character like her mom had Alzheimer's and like she was like she like always had. Like boxes upon boxes of like her medical journals and like personal journals and whatever and the daughter was like reading all of these things and like making connections as to how like why she's the way she is as an adult.

Like how that pertains to like her childhood and like all these things and like us saying this right now. It's like it's a crazy thing. I love journaling. I think it's such a nice thing. Really, really cool for so many reasons. I have a question for both of you. It's going back to the therapy.

I just like sometimes when I'm talking to my therapist, I'm thinking like this is so frustrating because she doesn't know the people that I'm talking about like all she knows is what I'm telling her which like to me is like the whole hearted truth. But like what if I'm like misunderstanding things like do you think in turn like that could make you really lost because like they're giving you advice based off of the things that you're saying.

No, because I think that the therapist keeps that in mind and like good therapy keeps all human biases in mind. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I agree with Jamie like I don't think it's use their advice because like to you that is your truth. And ultimately the person they're trying to help is you and so like they're navigating like how to help you through like the people in your life. The way you see things the way you experience things and like the way you explain that to her is your truth.

So like, you know, I don't and also like obviously she does keep those things in mind. So I don't know. And then do you also I have like a really good friend at home and I've been talking to him a lot and like for the past half year I've been like wanting him to enter therapy and like he's tried it but he hasn't really like loved it. Do you think that there's like a point in time where like, like therapy will only work if you actually want to get help?

Do you think otherwise it's like, it's no use. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I feel like at a certain age, like when you reach that full autonomy over yourself, there comes a point where you have to decide like nothing anyone will say like had my parents gone divorced like the age I'm at right now and then someone was pushing therapy on me I would be like, I'm only doing it if I want to like if I feel the need to like myself I'm not going to listen to anyone else.

Yeah, as I was saying earlier it's like a two way street, meaning that it's a relationship. So like if you're not putting in the work on your own but also like in like facing your therapist it's not going to there's going to be no benefit to it. Like it'll be helpful and maybe they'll learn to love it or like learn to embrace it. But it requires both parties to do their job. Yeah, I agree with that.

So like if someone is pushing you like too much to go for it then you go into it with the intention of like this is something I have to do like it's an obligation. It's not something I genuinely want to do to like better myself. Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, this episode is so long guys. This is like almost two hours. What? Yeah, I feel like there is there's so much. I feel like there's so much more we can address but for the sake of my maybe a part two next time or if we come to New York.

So. Ponder, but I don't know I think there's just so much more we can address like I don't obviously it's anything and everything I feel like we addressed a lot for sure. Yeah, and we definitely some good conversations stemmed from my main points which I'm so pumped about I can't wait to listen to this back we can listen to it tonight. Listening to your podcast. We always listen when she's done.

Before I hated doing that but now that I'm kind of I hate hearing my voice but I kind of have to for what I'm doing. I have I had to get used to it but now I love listening to them back like me and Joe every time I'm done recording. I'm like do you want to listen to them she just leaves me in the room. So yeah, I don't know guys I think that's all we have for you today. I'm so happy I could do this. Don't even mention it. I'm so happy. I'm like I'm like a giddy schoolgirl. I'm so excited.

Like I thank you so much for giving me your time. You're on vacation and you came on here which is so amazing. Thank you Joe for orchestrating this. It's so weird though. It feels like I've known you for a while actually. I don't feel like it's weird. I get where Joe's coming from though like two worlds colliding for sure. Yeah, but I don't know any last piece of advice you guys have for the more of male listeners. Like over anything not specific. Like general. Yeah, be honest yourself.

I feel like is a really good thing to take away from this. Every Joe's honest. It's my biggest. That's like your first tattoo. You get it right here. Honesty. A tramp stamp. Yeah, I think being honest with yourself is huge. Keep a journal. Keep your time capsule. And yeah, also I didn't get to say my slogan but for the single people out there being single is being stable. I literally quoted you. You're single until you're stable. No, that wasn't it. Oopsies.

No, you're single because you're stable. Oh, you're single because you're... Sorry, I don't know. I was like, okay. I had the words. Not the right form. You can give everything to yourself and it is a beautiful thing. I agree. That's the track I'm on. I'm trying to understand the stability. Everyone picked their era. Joe's in her. Yes, guys. And switch it up sometimes. You don't have to be in an era for too long. You don't have to conquer that era and then find a new one. Exactly.

I was in my bear and my bang's era and now I'm not. So it doesn't have to be that serious. My Jera's like... That's the big one but there are so many sub-eras. Yeah, there's so many sub-eras. My Rera. You're reading the Rera. Mel, what's your era? I don't know. Has it changed? What was it before? Ask every guess. Oh my God, I'm going to ask them. Wait, that's a really good thing. I think after I listen to your guys' podcast on the page, I like Coindy Your Era. What is it?

Which is your Fera, your fearless era. I like that. I like that a lot. Was that it? Yeah. Oh, okay. I like that. Wait. I do too. You're being honest. You're being vulnerable with this podcast. It's your fearless era. Thank God for that. Okay, Jamie. Oh, but it's my era? That's a good question. Currently Rera, relationship era. That's boring. That is boring. I think I'm in... Maybe you might... Tara. Tara. Tr-tr-trusting. That's a good one. I am in my tr-my trara. I don't know anymore.

Joe, are you sticking with Jera? Until I find something better. Actually, right now I'm in my barra, my boss-in-era. Okay, that's a really good one. The best era to be in. So true. Okay. Well, guys, when I post this, please comment below on my Instagram what area you're in. I would love to hear. And now I'm going to ask everyone. That's such a nice thing. But anyways, guys, thank you so much for tuning into today's episode of More of Mel. And I'll see you next time. I love you. Bye. Bye.