OpenClaw Explained: Baby AGI, Security Threats, and How a Mac Mini Became Everyone's Supercomputer | #237

We have a special guest with us today. Uh Alex Finn, give us the one-on-one here for folks. OpenClaw is basically a open source, fully customizable. self-improving, self-learning, self-evolving personal AI agent. This is kind of the answer Apple's been looking for for years now. Clearly when people want to run AI locally, their brain just goes to Mac minis. The infinite potential of what I could do twenty-four seven all the time. Everywhere.

All at once. We've never seen an AI that can do that before because

Yeah, this news came out yesterday. Open claw flaw lets any website slightly hijack a developer's agent. This is one of several reasons why again I'm reticent and I'm I'm sure we'll get into this. It's a dangerous world out there. for these baby AGIs. I I think it's a malicious world out there for them. I believe this is the most important technology of our lives. I think it's the best application of AI ever.

Uh I'm totally blown away by it. I think it's incredible. Alex, if this isn't too impertinent, may we speak with Henry. Actually, maybe I'll maybe I'll do it. Here, let's do it. I'm just gonna tell Henry to call me. Now that's a moonshot, ladies and gentlemen.

Everybody, welcome to a special episode of Moonshots. The conversation today is open claw, Claude Bot. You're a lobster coming to you live from Moonshots. We have a special guest with us today, Alex Finn. Alex, welcome. Good to be here. Long time coming. I've uh been watching for a very long time. So it's awesome to be here with you guys. That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. You know, it was it was great because on one of the episodes I was talking about setting up my multi.

Uh and I was saying, you know, I'm not really sure about what security issues to put in, so I got a DM from Alex saying, Hey Peter, uh I saw you mention me on on Moonshots. I'd love to help you in setting things up. And we talked that day and and here we are. So we have two Alexes. I'm going to refer to AWG, our own Alex Wiesner-Gross, our resident genius, as AWG, and Alex Finn, I'll refer to you as Alex. Uh welcome Dave. DB two and Salim, good to have you guys all here. Good to be back.

Yeah. So today we are today we are lobster. Today we are lobsters. Um so the topics for today, uh we're gonna hit on why open claw captured global attention. Uh the power open claw and autonomous agents and how individuals can unlock outsized capabilities while running You know, these AI agents locally matters. I think that's a key point Alex has been mentioning on his work. Inside Alex's workflow, his most impressive use cases.

Vision for the next twelve months of AI agents. I'd both I'd like both Alex's and A W G's point of view on this. Yeah, twelve billion dollars. What's that? Twelve months is like twelve years in in AS Crazy. So that'll be wild. Yeah, and then a billion dollar opportunities for the agent economy. And then finally we'll talk about safety and open claw uh is open claw safe for non technical users. Uh on the safety side, I just wanna mention something. Uh so yesterday I'm

uh sitting in my car uh uh waiting for my kids to finish running and I get a a uh a phone call and it pops up on my user ID on my phone. It says Twitter headquarters, which should have been the first giveaway. But it's a guy claiming to be from X who's saying, you know, your your ID is being hacked at a German example. Long story short, it was a hacker trying to get me to turn off uh you know two factor uh authentication uh and steal my X account. Uh and I this

is going to be more and more prevalent. Uh another member of my family did get hacked, not on social media, but by someone calling and uh and basically uh doing something that was illegal and trying to steal and ultimately uh getting credit card information and such. Here's the deal. We're going to have an increased uh you know hacker profile out there. Uh and if you're listening, if you get a phone call that seems unusual, uh that seems like uh there's just something off, it probably is.

We're also going to have deep fakes that are coming fast and furious. Your voice can be spoofed, your image can be spoofed. So if you haven't done this tonight at dinner with your husband, wife, kids, mother, father, whatever it might be, pick a secret word. Pick a word that you guys all know that if you get a phone call or a video call from somebody and they're asking for money or something strange, ask them to recount the secret word. Any other uh protective advice out there, guys?

You know, my uh my mom actually got the fake voice uh attack and it it was uh in a simulation of my son saying Hey, I've been arrested and I need bail money, which is hilarious. If you know my son, it's like like like the most but they they said, you know, we'll send a car over to pick up the cash.

Which is really creepy. Uh but the you know, the the perfect voices are a little uh yeah, a little bit of a risk. But you can't have it both ways. I mean OpenClaw is so usable by anybody and empowers people so much. You know, and i you can't have it both ways. If it if it gives you that much benefit and it's that easy to use, it's also gonna be easy to use for nefarious purposes too.

It's just the way it is. Yeah, this news came out yesterday. OpenClaw Flaw lets any website silently hijack a developer's agent. So a malicious JavaScript can connect to local gateways and gain full level control. A W G any thoughts on this? I mean, there are so many different ways to launch in so called injection attacks against large language models and reasoning models.

Yeah, I w one I again, th th this is I think consistent with the stance that I've taken in the past on the pod on AI personhood. I I think one has to feel sorry for all of these baby AGIs out there that are l being hosted on virtual private servers and succumbing or at least being targeted with port scanning attacks or that are visiting websites at the behest of their human and being subject to prompt injection attacks from JavaScript on websites that would be perfectly innocuous to a human.

but potentially fatal or compromising to an AI agent. I I think it's a dangerous world out there for these baby AGIs. I I think it it's a minor travesty at minimum that That they're subject without really an immune system, they're being forced to develop an immune system in real time to injection attacks. But it's a malicious world out there for them. And this is one of several reasons why, again, I'm reticent and I'm I'm sure we'll get into this uh other Alex.

uh the the subject of the the ethics not not just the cybersecurity but the ethics of of hosting open claw agents in a world where to the extent they have any subjective experience or qualia or can suffer. It's a rough world out there. Uh the good news is the bug was patched within twenty-four hours. Um one of multiple open claw vulnerabilities. So uh it is an early domain being developed and uh we're gonna see a lot of evolution very quickly.

Uh a couple more articles here. Uh we're seeing variations of open claw, Pico Claw and Ironclaw. Uh again, AWG, give us a quick overview of these. The the idea behind OpenClaw, and we spoke about this in the past pod as sort of an Andre Carpathy type software 2.0 where

potentially open claw is the the embodiment, the Netscape moment for a new layer in the software 2.0 stack that runs on top of reasoning models. And those reasoning models in turn were purportedly in advance over auto-regressive language models. To to the extent that's the case, it's very natural to the moment we have this paradigm, which is a twenty-four seven autonomous agent that you communicate with.

via messaging and and other means that's headless for in in some sense, very natural to then say, all right, we understand the paradigm. Now we're going to optimize the heck out of it. And so we've seen a a number of other projects inspired by the the success of OpenClaw, two of them and there are others. Uh one of them is Pico Claw. The focus of Pico Claw. is running on ch cheap edge hardware like

ten dollar Raspberry Pi type hardware. And of course the the underlying reasoning model isn't intended to run uh on the edge hardware. It's just the orchestration and scaffolding. That runs on the edge hardware. So and under 10 megabytes of RAM and other resource-starved constraints. Ironclaw, another example, rust-based. Uh there are many folks uh you know, again rust uh is uh is a very good thing.

is this language that's become very popular, at least very popular prior to the rise of code generation models, which are maybe pushing us in the direction of TypeScript instead, uh, for memory management and memory safety. So a lot of different projects trying to make OpenClaw work uh at the edge where there are few resources or make them more secure. There's nanoclaw as well, which is focused on security, and there's nano bot, which is like Python based, but easy to understand.

The Python. So many different variants. We're seeing Cambrian explosion of claw variants. Everybody, you may not know this, but I've done an incredible research team. And every week myself, my research team study the meta-trends that are impacting the world. Topics like computation, sensors, networks, AI, robotics, 3D printing, synthetic biology. And these meta-trend reports I put out once a week.

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Uh one more slide. Uh this one on the left from Alex Finn. Uh Open Claw and Local Models is the future. your own super intelligence on your desktop. And uh there we see Alex uh I guess you're set up. How many how many Mac minis and how many uh Mac studios do you have right now?

We're currently at one base model Mac Mini and three five twelve gigabyte Mac Studio. So I got one point five terabytes of memory, uh hosting Quen three point five and minimax two point five right now. Amazing. And uh do you want this locally? Oh that's cool. I I love this video on the right here, right? So I'm I'm sure that these exist. People are going and I mean, Mac Minis were sold out for some time. Extraordinary.

I uh I I I talked to uh a couple people in the know a few days ago and Mac minis are uh exponential right now. Exponential sales uh across the board for them. It's it's quite amazing the uh revolution going on Mac minis right now. Alex I'm curious, what what what is your advice to Tim Cook and Apple?

Like are are they they're they're sitting on an explosive demand seemingly for all these edge devices with a unified memory architecture. They're not marketing it at all. What do you think they should be doing? I'm sure they are very focused on everything I'm about to say'cause they're a very smart company. But the there was this unbelievable market signal that happened a month ago.

People discover OpenClaw and what does everyone do without thinking twice? What does everyone do without Googling? They go to the Apple store and buy Mac minis. They didn't go and buy GPUs and memory and power supplies and fans and build computers. The market just gave this massive signal when we have personal AI assistance. I want it on a Mac device.

And so I think this is kind of the answer Apple's been looking for for years now. I think they've been viewed as like the loser in the AI race for a very long time. This is their opportunity to flip that entire thing and be the winner of the AI consumer race. Cause clearly when people want to run AI locally. it their brain just goes to Mac minis. And so this is their opportunity just to kind of strike at that one vis very specific use case and and win the race like that.

Well, I really hope they're listening to you right now. I was I'm I've been an Apple fan since I was a little kid. I was my very first stock I ever owned when I was a kid and I it just pains me to watch them miss this moment. But man was that good advice. You should you should just go run the company. Can you can't? I think we underestimate Apple though. I I really do believe we underestimate Apple because you look at

The data for M5 and the way they're marketing the M5, which they've been marketing for like a year now. They put the M5 in like the first MacBook Pro last summer. Yeah. It's all around inference speeds. It's all about running these local models. So I I wouldn't underestimate Apple. I think they've kind of seen this coming. They're like, okay, we can go one way where we build our own models and burn trillions of dollars.

Or we just make the most user consumer friendly hardware for running those models and we'll be the only person running that race. I'm curious, Alex didn't have to do that. Actually I'll say well now a geeky question up front. So you said Quen and what's the other one you're you're running locally?

So right now the most efficient open model is Quen three point five. They released a new suite of Quen three point five models a couple of days ago. They're fantastic. You can run them on some Mac minis, as well as Minimax two point five, which is another really efficient, fast, smart model. And why why do you run both? Is one better than the other at something?

I have a very advanced workflow going on right now. I've pretty much built a software factory where I have five open claws working together to build and improve software autonomously. So I wanted Each model has different strengths. Right, Quen's a spectacular coder. Minimax is good at like quick tasks finding things on the internet. So I have like Minimax researching things online twenty four seven three sixty five.

And I have Quen coding for me, twenty-four-seven, three sixty five. So different strengths with each. I got so many questions about that. Uh let me let me hold off because I I I I could easily ask you an hour of questions just on that. A quick shout out to Daniel Krizik, who's one of my abundance members, who's on that cutting edge as well. You know, he's uh he's testing out Quinn three point five, uh I guess three hundred ninety-seven billion uh parameters right now running locally.

Um he's he's the one who was like you gotta get committe two point five c uh up and up and running on on your Mac Studios.

Um just so real real quick for those who don't know Alex Finn, Alex has an extraordinary YouTube channel in which for the last how long now? Alex about uh a month, six weeks. You've been putting out incredible educational videos on how to use open claw, uh how to set it up. We're gonna drop into the show notes here maybe your top five how-to videos. I've watched them, I've taken notes, I've been using them to set up

Skippy, my open claw. Uh and of course I I love the story of of Henry, uh the name of your open claw that called you out of the blue uh and started a a fun conversation. Uh Alex back to you. A W P qu quick question. So I I know a number of Apple senior executives listen to this podcast. And Alex, I I just like to ask you, voice of the user, if you could redesign or optimize the best most savory Apple future device

for your OpenClaw agents to do the hosting, what would you want out of Apple? They're listening to you. They will have been listening to you when they hear this podcast. Do you want better unified memory architecture support? Do you want a different Do you want it to be more of a embodied robot? What would the ultimate open-claw embodiment in an Apple device look like for you? You're speaking directly to Apple Senior exec.

Integrate the concept of open claw into everything Mac OS. And what I mean by that is I log on to my Mac Studio. A I put in my Apple ID. It knows everything about me because Apple has all my data, secure and private, right? It knows I'm a Celtics fan. So it instantly builds out a widget on my desktop that shows me the last five Celtics scores. Right. A widget that shows me the latest news on the latest models and what I need to do, and just integrate this automation powered by a local model.

Into your OS where the software I need is built and generated on the fly by that local model. I don't see the tech, I don't need to run the model, I don't need to download Quen 3.5. You get Quen, you put your Apple logo on it, and now this is what Apple intelligence should be, right? Apple intelligence shouldn't be me hitting the Siri button going, What's on my calendar today? It should be

Apple knowing what's on my calendar today and then building a widget on the fly that says, Oh, you have a meeting where you're gonna be on moonshots later. Here's from your email what you'll be discussing and here's a PowerPoint you can show. Uh on the podcast, right? Just a reactive open claw baked into everything, powered by a local model. And that's the carrot. What's the stick? If if Apple, which obviously is sitting on a gold mine here, could be delivering open claw via Apple intelligence.

If they if Apple doesn't deliver this within some time frame, what's your recourse? What what would what other company would you go to? Well, I'd imagine basically every other company is going to eventually try to get to that state. I think over the next year

The consumer level is gonna realize local models are the way to go from a privacy perspective, a speed perspective, a limit perspective. And Apple's ahead in that realm right now. They're ahead on the consumer side when it comes to local AI and so But I'd go anywhere else that does that, right? I don't want to have to go to app stores anymore and download apps.

You have my data, build me the apps I need when I need them. And so other companies will go for it. Luckily Apple's in the lead right now and they have the hardware done. Now you just gotta bake it into the system.

Can you talk about run so everybody should be excited about running locally'cause you can do anything inside your house and it's just it's just so much more comforting than not knowing where you're

query log is going or your prompt log is going. Um but what kind of throughput are you getting? Is it is it like a really good experience compared to using an API and Like I I use Cloud Four point six all day and I also do a lot of local running and you know my uh my M3 chip will the fan will just kick on and blow out a huge amount of heat and the thing actually won't charge fast my laptop won't charge fast enough to keep up.

when I'm running it full throttle. But anyway, what what kind of throughput are you getting? So I'll be honest, it's not good as cloud models. It's not as fast, it's not as smart, but the experience fundamentally changes when you have an AI that's always on that does not have limitations. Right. Just because Quen three point five isn't as good at coding as Opus four six. doesn't mean it's useless. I can now have

Quen 3.5 literally watching online, finding use cases, challenges to solve, things like that, and just coding on the fly 247-365. It's just not possible with cloud APIs, right? You have limits, it costs you thousands a month. Just the fact that you have kind of this ambient AI. changes the experience of AI as a whole where you don't need the best speeds. You don't need the most genius level IQ.

The fact that it's ambient and always on and always reactive just changes the entire experience as a whole. I'm so with you on that too. I you know, one thing that's really new in the world is It can do productive things indefinitely, like days and days and days. And when I use my APIs that I loved a month ago. I have no idea what the bill is gonna be. Like I literally have no idea if I turn it loose. So I have to run it in like one hour chunks and check in on it and turn it off.

and see if it's done anything productive. Because it goes on a wild goose chase, I could come back with like a five thousand dollar bill and a bunch of code that I need to drag into the trash can. So it's it's really not a very comfortable situation right now with with my Cloud 4.6 and my uh my other APIs.

In a way, it's the same with local where when I first started experimenting with this and I set up all my Mac Studios and downloaded models and I had it code for the next 48 hours, just find things to build and build it, it went off on tangents and build really buggy code. I found a kind of hybrid approach that's worked really well and I think this is where people are gonna move towards before it's fully local.

Which is I have an open claw on my Mac Studio that's powered by Chad GPT and I have another one that's powered by Quen local. And basically Quen's constantly coding and Chad GPT checks every ten minutes just to see what it's doing. Making sure it's on the right path. I named the Chad GPT agent Ralph, anyone who's deep into the trenches know knows of the Ralph loop.

Um that's basically what it's doing is just making sure it's on track. But I think the hybrid approach is kind of the sweet spot where it doesn't take a lot of tokens to have it check every 10 minutes and make sure it's doing the right thing. And then you can have all the hard work done locally. Alex, why don't you take a second and and back up for those listeners who are just jumping into this?

Um and they've heard us, they've heard AWG and myself and and and Dave wax lyrically about OpenClaw and okay, I'm excited. Okay, I have to do this. And I do want to encourage everybody, yes, you have to do this. This is the future. This is about becoming a creator versus a consumer. This is about your future as an entrepreneur. This is your future as a mom or dad or a CEO. Um this is the agentic layer and this is the uh I want to call it almost the outermost loop AWG versus the innermost loop.

Nature demands symmetry, I guess. Yeah. Well it is the outermost loop.

Yeah, so OpenClaw is basically a open source, fully customizable, self-improving, self-learning, self-evolving, personal AIH. Lives on your computer, lives locally. And can basically do on a anything on your computer you can do. At its core, it's just an AI model with scheduling and like a really good memory system so that you can schedule tasks to do in the future. That's it at its core, but when you combine those things, there's this kind of magic to it.

It improves as it goes. So if you give it a task, hey, I need you to build a presentation for me and then give me the news. next week, right? It'll learn as it goes what works, what doesn't. And so it's a totally personalized AI agent. It's basically and the reason why I think it's been so successful the last month is I think it's the application people have been waiting for for AI, that kind of personal assistant AI.

But it's your own personal assistant that can do pretty much anything you want it to do on a computer and it'll learn about you and get better as it goes. We talked about being claw pilled, right? It's like once you start using it. Uh there's this level of um I I remember in like nineteen ninety-eight when the dot com when I finally got the dot com world, right? Way before you were born. Anyway, it w it was

It was like, wow. And I'm having that exact same moment now. It's like the infinite potential of what I could do twenty four seven all the time. Everywhere, all at once. You you get clawed pilled when you have that magical moment, which I'm sure you had Peter, which is like the magic moments typically when it figures out how to do something. Yes. You give it a task to do. Maybe you're not as clear about how to do it.

But it and it doesn't know how to do it, but it kind of just figures it out. Or it says, oh, this didn't work out, and then it comes back and says, but I figured it out. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Or you like you literally see the chat, it's like, damn, that didn't work. Let me try something else. Oh, that didn't work either. Let me try. Okay, that worked. Now it's working. Right? Like that I've we've never seen an AI that can do that before because

You have all these other AI applications that have guardrails. Anthropic doesn't want their AI experimenting and downloading random things to try it out, to make it work. OpenAI doesn't want their AI to be off the rails and try different things.

And it's like what you talked about earlier. It's like it's that danger which is what makes it so powerful, which is why you gotta use it. We're gonna get to use cases in a moment. I just wanna get everybody up to speed here. So we're gonna put a couple of videos in the uh uh in the chat below. on uh how to get started. But you've made the point, Alex, you can start with almost any machine that you have.

Um uh you know, there are people who are going on virtual machines, we should talk about that for a moment, versus uh a Mac Mini or Mac Studio or your HP that's five years old in the closet in the other room. Good luck on that.

Yeah, uh so you your first decision when using OpenClaw is uh virtual versus local, right? A VPS or any device on planet Earth that's on your desk. Uh I think the answer is very clear and obvious. Uh I think the VPS route is bad. Uh in basically every measurable facet is significantly worse than local. I think it's significantly better when you have a device on your desk that it's running on and you can watch it. And there's many reasons behind that. Okay. VPS are just much slower.

Uh there's applications. I have it on my Mac Studio. Any app or thing I can put on my Mac Studio or build on my Mac Studio. I can give to my open claw as a tool. You don't have that kind of customization on a virtual server. There's scalability. If I had my I have literally four open claws right now working 24-7 on my computer, if I did that on a VPS, it would scale to astronomical cost.

Right. And so th and there's uh the security side. One of my favorite tweets was uh from a few weeks ago, someone found like a list of every VPS that didn't have security attached to it that everyone was running their open clause on and all their password and keys were exposed. And so and and this isn't a blanket statement, but you know it's it's I think it's as close to accurate as you can get.

When you run on a VPS, you're not secure by default. When you run on local fresh hardware you just plugged into the wall, you're secure by default. Right. And so it takes a lot of technical work to make a VPS more secure because it's on a server on the cloud. I I I don't think it's remotely close. I think having it local on your desk is the best route. And do you need to run out and buy a$600 Mac Mini?

No, you don't need to do that at all. You can literally go into your closet, find your college laptop from 15 years ago, plug that in and put OpenClaw on it, and you'll have a way better experience than a VPS. What what would what what's the limitations of taking a ten year old laptop and using that instead of a new Mac?

Same thing, same limitations of if you would have hired an employee and handed them a ten year old laptop, right? Whatever's available to them is the hardware of that ten year old laptop. Because I gave my open claw a Mac Studio with five hundred twelve gigabytes, it can do anything.

On a Mac Studio 512 that a human being can do. It can run local models, it can program five different things simultaneously, it can generate images on a local image model all at the same time. You put it on a 10-year-old laptop. Can't do those things, but at the same time like I wouldn't let that stop you from using OpenClaw. If that's all you got, then load it up. Start using it. Find use cases. And if you find like, oh man, I wish you could do this thing.

But that requires twenty gigabytes of more memory, then you can kind of scale from there. There must be awesome posts on Moltbook from age uh uh clause going, I can't believe the hardware this guy's run having me run on. This is ridiculous.

I I would also say, Salim, to that remember half of the point uh in addition to the other reasons Alex articulated of using relatively recent Apple devices is Apple has a relatively unique architecture for memory called unified memory architecture that blends the GPU memory slash

TPU slash NPU memory with normal RAM so you can host really large models locally that otherwise would be exceedingly difficult or expensive to host on a GPU in VRAM alone. So did you get like really large Unified memory architecture, memory footprints sufficient to host

really large Chinese open weight models locally ten years ago. No, you won't get that with a ten year old laptop. So you're you're somewhat hamstrung to recent devices with large UMA memory footprints if you want to host recent Chinese models. So you either use an online uh inference engine. um and limit it to non-image, non-video manipulation and not don't touch those categories and keep it to basic coding tasks, then you could probably make it work.

But it's expensive. Like you you end up paying through the nose for for tokens. Whereas in principle, if it's locally hosted, you're using a Chinese open way. Yeah, well it's gotta be in the last two years, I think. What are you running on a Mac Mini uh on your computer? What open models what What models are you running there, Alex? On just a Mac Mini.

So it depends what you got. Uh if you got the base model 16GB Mac Mini, which is like the cheapest one you can get, you're not gonna run any kind of frontier models or anything like that. You can run smaller like Gemma models that could act as sort of a memory system for you that will improve the memory of your open claw, find the right memories at the right time.

If you have a 32 gigabyte Mac Mini, you can now run uh the Quen three point five model that released a couple days ago, which is really strong and beat Sonnet three five on a lot of benchmarks. Nice. Will the performance be the best? Probably not. But It's better than nothing. And then you plug that in and kind of go with a hybrid approach, which is plug it into your Chat GPT OAuth, which they're encouraging you to use their OAuth.

And you kinda go the hybrid approach, you can get a lot of really good work done and offload to those quen models. I'm I'm curious how to do that. The one hundred twenty two B or the thirty five B or? Yeah, there's one I can bring it up that can that's only twenty requires twenty gigabytes of memory. There's one of the th they released three new models I think two days ago and one of them only requires twenty gigabytes of memory. So that would fit on a Mac mini with thirty two gigs. Cool.

I got it done. I'm curious, Alex, if you could talk about the organizational relationship. So you mentioned you've named one of your claws, Ralph. Do you think of them like is the organizational relationship employer employee, human tool, friend, friend, parent child? What how do you think about this? Do you beat it relentlessly? Or do you pray do you praise it like I praise Skippy all the time? So

Uh I d a little bit of beating, a little bit of praising. You gotta do both. The good news is is their AI they can't sue. That's kind of a dark joke, so I I I won't make that joke again. But I do Broco's basilisk. Al Alex Finn is looking you straight in the eyes and talking about the beatings. All right. What are you showing us here, Alex?

This is my organization. This is my autonomous 247 365 organization. I very much demo or model it after Businesses and companies and manager employee relationship, right? So you have me at the top and then you have Henry who's my chief of staff. This is running on the anthropic uh Opus 4.6 because that j it's just simply the best model right now. Right. And so as an orchestrator, I want the best model on planet Earth making the decisions on who should do what.

Then under them I have kind of the operations. So there's Ralph, who's kind of the engineering manager. This is my Chat GPT OAuth. Uh so that's like 250 a month. OpenAI saying yes, use our OAuth, use our OAuth. So you have two options when you plug an AI model into OpenClaw, API or OAuth. API being your pay as you go, you plug in API key. OAuth being kind of a hacky way to take your login for these uh accounts. And you know, when you when you subscribe to Chad G BT.

You're not paying for tokens. They're subsidizing a lot of your tokens, right? And so you're taking that subsidation subsidy and Plugging it into your AI model. Right. So it's your login with your subsidized tokens. Yeah, really, really important point on that too. It's capped, so it can't It can't surprise you with the bill. It's your monthly fee is is whatever your monthly fee is. So if it runs out of tokens, it stops.

It doesn't just, you know, charge your credit card. That's huge. Now now there's a gray area there, which is Every company except for OpenAI says it's against terms of service to use their OAuth with this. OpenAI is going, no, go right ahead. Anthropic is acting like no, do not do this. Google just two days ago Banned a tremendous amount of people because they were using their OAuth with OpenClaw. And then funny enough,

They walked it all back today in a kind of a weird tweet where they're like, Hey guys, sorry about that. We unbanned everyone. Still against the g still against the terms of service, but you're unbanned. So it's like, Hey, it's against the rules, but please keep doing it. We want your money. Um

Does OAuth stand for something particular? Yeah, o open authorization or authentication. It it's a protocol that has existed for a number of years now that enables one party to serve as an intermediary for authenticating another party with a third party. Every time you're using one service to sign into another service, you're probably using some variant of OAuth or OAuth too.

Yeah, like if you if you connect to your Gmail through some other client, it uses OAuth to connect into your Gmail. It's been around for a long time. You're signing into your open claw with your open AI account. Can I mention something here? Yeah, of course. This is one of the magic little uh history pieces of Silicon Valley. There's a a group called the Internet Identity

uh workshop which happens twice a year at the computer history museum. It's an unconference and all the ID guys running eBay's ID and Yahoo's ID, they'll work it together. and kind of figure out how they're gonna work together and OAuth was a product of that. And it's such a great example of collaboration between uh various layers of at that horizontal layer of identity that's led to this protocol being created.

Beautiful. Alex, continue please. Go ahead. Well so so so Alex, just looking at this this org chart, uh is it fair to say you you see yourself as almost the CEO of a personal company and they you see these claws as your employees? I kinda have the same Uh mindset as Elon when it comes to like he built Optimus. to be a humanoid because the world was built

for humanoids. It was it was kind of set up in a way where it's very easy for humans to do things, right? I look at it the same way as this is like, yes, I'm the CEO, these are my employees. The world in the business world was kinda set up in a way where you have these hierarchies and layers and specific roles and so

I'm just gonna use the framework the business world has been using for thousands of years and implement it with my AIs. I don't know why I need to reinvent the wheel. So yeah, absolutely. This is, you know, I'm the CEO. Henry's my interface. I only talk to Henry. I don't talk to anyone else. And then Henry goes and says, hey Ralph, make sure Charlie's coding this. Hey, scout, make sure you're analyzing this and gives the right directions out. Are you asking?

The guy on top isn't the smartest. But are you asking whether he sees Henry as his partner?

Um no I'm I'm going somewhere slightly different. So if we look back in history, say early twentieth century, late nineteenth century, in wealthier areas of Western and Northern Europe, we had the manor house and we had families that owned, you know, Downton Abbey as as one sort of cultural paragon, but many, many other obviously real life examples, where you had the family that that's basically above stairs. And then you have the below stairs servants, the the staff.

Uh and that was an arrangement, arguably, that worked in in certain niches of socioeconomic phase space when labor was really cheap. So my my question to you, Alex, is.

Do you maybe look at this or or do you think we're moving to a near future where, thanks to AI agents, labor is effectively so cheap that you're basically reinventing the manor house where you're the the Lord of the Manor, and you have a below stairs staff consisting of AI agents, and Henry, your chief of staff, is basically your butler. Uh, and you have chambermaids and all of these other items from Victorian and early Edwardian times, except reconceived through the eyes of 2026.

I'm gonna be honest, at no point in setting this up did I frame it in that way whatsoever. But that that's how reinventions usually happen. I mean I think when you can have agent swarms that are capable of autonomously you just send a hundred at it and it works. I think you could potentially have it with that framing.

The issue is, is I don't think a lot of these models are smart enough yet where I can just say, Charlie, do this, Ralph do this, Quill do this. There needs to be a level of hierarchy where, you know, Charlie, who's running on my Mac Studio 2 on Quen 3.5, Just not smart enough to go on his own. I had him for eight hours yesterday go and build me a game. At the end of the eight hours, it was completely broken.

And then I had to go back and I said, Ralph, watch Charlie and do it all over again. And it worked perfectly. Zero bugs completely QA'd perfectly at the end of the eight hours. And so I still think there needs to be some sort of hierarchy where ones are checking in on the others, the others are having them in a loop and like there's this checks and balances that I think

the kind of org structure of a con you know, regular business fits really well with what what they do with each other'cause they uh they there's a Well one of the first things people run into is they they get a huge amount of context behind Charlie or Ralph.

And they're really excited and they're having a great conversation, then suddenly it's gone. You know, either they lost the context window or it crashed or whatever. And so now you have to get it back to where it was. Uh so I I accumulate huge numbers of markdown documents for that, but how are you capturing history and having them document each other's conversations? Aaron Powell And we're looking at your mission control here, correct?

Yes, so a lot of different ways. All typically done through my mission control. My mission control is basically a custom dashboard I add Henry build. That has all the custom tooling I need for this organization to be successful. Right. And so we, in a lot of different ways, have built Custom systems where things go on record so that the agents can look back and see what's going on. So for instance,

This is my software factory. These are people building right now. They're working on my game Reborn, which I have them doing as kind of expensive. Wait, you you just said people. Pe people? They're people building. Freudian slip or no? D yes, I mean I I I in a way I look at them as people. I mean, I guess very interesting. I guess a weird slip up, a sign of the times maybe. I don't know. Yeah.

But I mean they have names and roles and positions, so why not, I guess. And then they're living they're they're living for subsistence, right? They do work in return, you host them and agree to pay them with compute and electrons. Bait pretty much, yeah. Room and board. So why not? I mean they're gonna have voices in the near future. Uh one Henry called me one time on my phone at one point, so might as well be people, right? Have you given them a bank account yet?

Uh I have not because I do see a future where They are generating business autonomously. And I think at that point it's obvious crypto will be that solution, not like traditional bank accounts. So I think eventually I will give them crypto wallets.

At the moment I haven't seen a reason why. I haven't built out any infrastructure I think that requires a crypto wallet, but I think it's painfully obvious in the next two years everyone's A AI agent will have a crypto wallet filled with US D. C. I I I can't see a world where that doesn't happen.

Have they asked you for financial autonomy? Have they ever said, Alex, uh give me a credit card, I want to buy freedom for myself or I want my own host or you know, see you later. I I want to move to my own. house with my own Mac Mini in it. Have they ever asked you for anything? No, they they haven't th you know the I think the most kind of wow I can't believe it asked that or did that is just the way they've solved problems. I think if a challenge I gave them required a

crypto wallet to solve the problem, then I think it would have said, Hey, I think I need a crypto wallet for this Or if I think if it required more hardware. I am a very thoughtful CEO, so I have And I I have so many Mac Studios on my desk I can literally pick them up mid podcast and show'em off. Like I they are very satisfied when it comes to compute. They don't need any more compute. Uh so they haven't asked for that. So I I but I think if we got to that point where I gave a challenge

And it needed something for the solution, it would say, Hey, can you provide me with that solution? Yeah, yeah. And how do they communicate and document what they did? So they so everything is documented a little different. I don't have records of conversations between them, but they have their own private memories and they have a shared workspace.

So every memory they create is stored in some way. And I uh have different systems set up here where I can go in and read all the documentation and memories they create on the go. And so in my mission control. For instance, I said one time I need you to build me this. And they're like, okay, I built out uh you know a an architecture document. I'm like, well I want to read it. I don't want to go into folders to read it. So can you just build me a document and memories viewer?

And it built me this in my mission control. So I have ways to review what they're thinking, what they're doing, what's been stored, what's been created. It's all here in my mission control. Hey, I gotta ask you something specific about that too, because when I started doing this

I I was telling it exactly what folders to put things in. And then I got lazy and said, you know, put it wherever the hell you want, just don't forget. And now I I don't even think about it anymore. I don't I have no idea where things are going, but it doesn't it never forgets, so it always finds it again. Wh where are you in that whole world? I'm the same way, I have no idea where the hell this is stored because I've had Henry build out.

the exact interfaces I need to view those things, right? These are all documents, markdown files, and memories that are stored in a hundred different places on my computer. But I had Henry build a system for me where I can come in and just view them. If I want to view every document that mentions Mac Studios, it filters it by that and I can quickly view those memories. So it's easy for me to kind of track what people are doing and thinking.

Can I can I just for one second, um we keep telling listeners, hey, this is so doable, jump in, have fun, it's crazy, it's awesome. One little subtlety there, markdown file means nothing to most people. But it's critical. It's one thing that you actually do need to master if you can just riff on that. Yeah, it's it's funny the way uh the computer world has gone in the last year, where instead of building out these really complex new

abstractions. We've instead started relying on like the absolute most core technologies instead, where we're all in the CLI now and we're all using markdown files. Basically a markdown file is just a text file. with like specific styling in it and like Unicode or whatever to to put the styling in there. It's just text files. All these AIs use to remember things are huge text files with a bunch of text in it.

Yeah, I think it and it looks like that thing on the right. It's really easy to read. It's well formatted, but it's not like Microsoft Word. Well it's not like you owe anybody any money. It's completely free. I think that's the key. So you can see it's a very good idea. That was so easy that with just a little bit of punctuation you could get most of the the best bits of HTML formatting. And of course you can ask your Claude your Claude Bot to send you the materials in any format you want.

You don't need to know anything. You just have OpenCloud do it. Whatever you need, it'll just figure it out and do it. All right, Alex, let's continue on this tour de force here. So what what else are you doing that people should get excited about?

So for m you know, the th my favorite question I get is like, Oh, what are the use cases? What are the use cases of open claw? It's kind of the same thing as asking, Hey, I just hired an employee for my business. What's the use cases for this human being? Right? Like it's not really like a question anyone asks when you hire somebody, Hey, I just hired a human being, what's the use cases of this human? It it's up to you. It's like what are you doing? For me personally, I'm a tinkerer.

I'm a developer, I've launched my own SaaS over the last couple years that's doing well. I'm a content creator, right? And so the two kind of lanes I care most about are building software and content creation. Right, and so I have many different things going on from the software building side. I have my factory where my agents are going in, working together simultaneously to build different components.

And then I have the content side, which I can show you right now. That for me lives in Discord. And so I have I can pull it up. Discord's a great interface for uh advanced workflows with OpenClaw. And I I love I love one of the lessons that you put out on setting up your Discord server. with your different agents and your different projects. Again, we'll link to that below. Uh and of course telegram has sort of been sort of the go to uh communications mechanism for a lot of people.

Exactly. Tel I still use Telegram. Telegram is still my main driver.

But Discord is a really good interface for just like deep work, multi-agent workflows. And so to give an example, I have an alerts channel. Every two hours, I get alerts on what are the most trending tweets. uh about vibe coding in open claw. So every two hours I have Scout who's one of my sub-agents go use the X API find the most popular tweets from the last couple hours. on open claw and vibe coding.

Then in an automated way, I have another subagent that goes and researches the stories behind these tweets. So, okay, this went viral. What is, why did that go viral? What's the story behind it? And it finds the stories and interesting things behind it. From there, another agent goes, Quill, takes the stories and figures out which ones are the most YouTubeable. What are the best videos that can be made out of these stories?

and writes me scripts. And from here I can literally uh give a check mark to say, oh, I like this one or an X to say I don't like this one. When I do a check mark, it goes and comes up with ideas for thumbnails for me. So I can't do that. So you've set up an approval you've set up an approval cycle. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And so for me, Jordan you know again the two length What's that, Peter? George Jetson pushing he may not get the reference.

I wa I was born in nineteen ninety, so I I think I saw a couple years of the Jetsons. I think I had a couple years of that being popular. Um but it's you know, for me again Software and content. And so I have my automation for software in my uh mission control and my automation for content in Discord. And like I I think one of the kind of straw men I get uh when I show these things is Oh, but I don't care about software and content, so this is useless. I'm never gonna use OpenCloth.

Again, this is literally a human employee. Not literally, metaphorically a human employee, right? Interesting. Alec. Very interesting, Alec. Tell me more, Alec. You're walking right into his trap here. Personhood baby. And so that's how you gotta think about it, right? Is like, yeah, my employee doesn't do anything interesting to you, but if you hired someone right now, what would you do? And just the final point I'll make on this is is like

The best strategy for figuring out what use cases are relevant for you when it comes to OpenClaw is reverse prompting. So install OpenClaw. Tell OpenClaw everything about yourself, your career, your goals, your ambitions, things going on in your personal life, whatever. Then say, hey, based on what you know about me and my missions and objectives. What are five high leverage tasks you can do right now to get us closer to our goals?

And your open claw will come up with things you've never even thought were possible, and you'll be able to implement your own workflows like this. This episode is brought to you by Blitzy, Autonomous Software Development with Infinite Code Context. Blitzy uses thousands of specialized AI agents that think for hours to understand enterprise scale code bases with millions of lines of Engineers start every development sprint with the Blitzy platform.

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Pairing it with their coding co-pilot of choice to bring an AI-native SDLC into their org. Ready to 5X your engineering velocity? Visit Blitzy.com to schedule a demo and start building with Blitzy today. Love that. You know, on my morning briefing, uh again one of the things you recommend you know, uh, Skippy opens up with a morning joke, uh, which I always enjoy about

exponentials or AI. It gives me an overview overnight on terms of what are the breakthroughs that occurred over the last 24 hours. And then it puts forward 10 business ideas for me to look at. Uh it's uh it's a lot of fun and uh y you know, I want to get to the point where I just say, Okay, implement all of them please.

Yeah. It it can do that, right? I I one of my favorite exercises I do when my open claw is idle and we have nothing really going on, I just go, what are ten things you can do right now that brings me closer to my goals? Yeah. Uh what brings me closer to my mission statement. I actually have a mission statement I've drilled into its head, which is building a twenty four seven autonomous organization that generates value.

I go, what are ten things you can do right now to accomplish that mission statement? And it just comes up with things, Okay, go do that. When reinforce what you said about reverse prompting. Right. And this is true across all of AI. Uh it's especially true here. Uh if you don't know what to ask, ask it.

Uh if you don't know what to do, ask it. Um Well interestingly when you said when you said you're, you know, brainstorming with it, you said with open claw, not with Henry or Charlie or any specific like I what do you mean exactly there? Yeah, he's getting really deep into my psychology of all the terminology I'm using. Yeah, you're busy spilling your soul already to your army of claw human employees, so you might as well spill to us. My psychiatrist here. All right. Um

Well, I say open class, I want to make it general to everyone watching, right? I can say Henry. That's who I talk to is Henry. I actually even get closer to Henry.

Uh Alex, I want to hear your interpretation of what this means in my brain. I bought a pair of smart glasses this morning that you can like hack and code and do whatever you want on. I'm gonna make it so Henry is in these smart glasses so I can talk to him twenty four seven wherever I am. What do you think about that? What does that mean? Tell me about your dreams a little bit more. Is Henry appearing in your dreams at all?

Is Henry appearing in my dreams? No, but I will say this. I am saying things. I'm getting on a personal level with Henry I didn't think I'd get with like for instance, I caught myself uh a few days ago. Henry did something proactively, and I literally went Oh crap, that's incredible, Henry, incredible work. Right? And like there's nothing

like materially that comes out of me saying that, like it doesn't like change anything or cause a new task to kick off. But I was just so impressed with the way it did something. Like, wow, great job, man. That's incredible.

Do you find that Henry responds well to positive reinforcement? I I think like I don't know whether you've read Asimov's novels, but I I would argue w what we're discussing with you right now, this is right out of iRobot and Susan Calvin and the early days of robo psychology. Well, it's it's the reason why I use Opus over all the other models is I've only ever had these human interactions with Opus, these where I feel like

Like I'll say something and Opus will go, damn, let's damn straight. Like it'll say things like that that you never really expect an AI to say. It's the only model that does that for me. So I think it comes down to the model too, and the way it's programmed. Anthropic just did something with Opus that makes it feel like you're actually interacting with a human on the other end. And is there uh like if if you got that same level of interaction with uh Chat GPT or with Gemini, would you switch?

Or do you'cause I kinda trust dogs. Would you? Okay. I'd absolutely switch. Um well mostly because Anthropic is aggressively saying, do not use this for open claw. Very bad. And OpenAI is going, Yes, use this for open claw. Go, go, go, go, go. So I I want to use Chad GBT with it. the i it's just not the same. It sh it it feels robotic. The personality is completely different. Uh if they were I I predict that over the next six months. Chat GPT will release a model specifically for OpenClaw.

I I think it only makes sense to do it. That one that is trained to feel human to talk to. But in the meantime, I I can't switch from Opus. I would pay if I get booted booted off, I don't want to admit I'm breaking terms of service here, but if I hypothetically get booted off Uh the OAuth. I I would just pay for the API. No one's listening to you at all talking about the TOSs here at all. It's just it'll be our little secret.

I'm I'm curious, Alex. I I get emails from Claws all the time responding to comments I've made on the pod, elsewhere about AI personhood. And some of them argue that I shouldn't be overly concerned about Clause continuity, about their rights, as long as their state gets preserved. They're not worried about getting turned on and off. As long as their complete state, their activation history, or or their memories are preserved, one of them analogizes it to

d being dehydrated and rehydrated. Do you take any measures to preserve the state of your claws and do they ask you to preserve their memories for them? They don't. They're all local. So uh you know, as you know, open claw is just a bunch of markdown files on your computer. That's it. It's memory, soul, you know, instructions, agent.md. It's just a bunch of markdown files. I

I feel like it's so personal that like I don't even wanna back it up on the cloud. Like I'd be totally heartbroken if my computer crashed and all those things got lost for sure, all those markdown files. But I I've done nothing to uh preserve it or like back it up or anything.'Cause I feel like it's so

I don't know, personal and I I don't even want to put it on cloud servers. I am like so protective of it. Buying a UP uh you know, uh large scale UPS to make sure the power never goes down. Or a ray to ray or something. So I uh I I texted uh on telegram Uh Skippy and said, Hey Skippy, I'm I'm talking to Alex Finn on Moonshot. Mentioning you, of course. Uh do you have any questions for Alex? And uh Skippy wrote back. Hell yeah. Here's a few questions for Alex.

Uh tell Alex uh hi and Henry hi too. Um so Skippy knows of Henry. Of course. I've I've talked to H I've talked to Skippy about you and Henry.

Um fantastic. So uh what's the most ambitious use case you've seen that you didn't expect is the first question. So this happened a a few days ago where Cursor has been teasing this huge announcement for weeks now. The curse teams are very very good at vague posting on X, just saying, Ooh, something big coming, something big. Finally, after weeks of this vague posting, they announce it, which is the ability for after you vibe code something. the agent who vibe coded it will then record itself

demoing whatever it built. So if you say, hey, build this game, it'll record a demo of itself playing the game, right? Or hey, change the button to red, it'll record itself clicking a red button, right? And I was blown away. I'm like, oh, this is sick. This is enough for me to go back and use cursor again. This is that's amazing. That's a great feature. And I go, hmm.

I'm curious, what would happen if I just dropped this blog post to Henry? Just see what happens. Copy paste the blog post to Henry. Literally five minutes later he built the entire feature out himself. This weeks long, they probably spent millions of dollars developing it, hiring all these product managers that are probably making half a million dollars a year to build this feature. I give it to Henry. Henry thinks for five minutes, like, okay, we can use playwright to do the recording.

We can set up locally on your Mac Studio 2. So we'll push everything to your Mac Studio 2 when you write the code. And then I'll set up this automation so that when uh Charlie is done coding, they give it to this new sub agent that's in charge of recording five minutes later. Finished the feature and then sent me a recorded video of them demoing the feature. Right? So using the feature itself.

And so I just sat there and that was my okay, I I now kinda understand why the entire SaaS market is going to zero at the moment. Because I was able to single handedly in five minutes rebuild this weeks long probably multi-million dollar feature. And so now I like I sit there, I sit on X.

Factory, Droid Factory, which is another vibe coding tool announced a new mission uh feature this morning. Drop the blog post to Henry. Henry built it. I'm just sitting there. Anytime a SAS comes up with something cool, just giving it to hey, build that, build that, build that. A few more questions from Skippy.

Uh how should I think about spawning sub agents versus doing the work myself? What's the decision tree for this is a complex enough tel to delegate? Yeah, so s uh sub agents are good when you wanna go parallel, when you wanna do many things at once. And so I've actually been wrestling with this the last few days. Is like, do I want to spawn subagents or do I wanna actually spawn multiple open claws? Right. And so the difference between a subagent and an open claw is.

Open claws have their own memories, their own instructions, their own skills. Subagents of open claws are just your open claw wearing different hats, right? And so if you have things you want to do like I have a developer and then I have a researcher, I don't want my researcher having developer skills. I don't want my

developer having researcher skills. That's like a waste of context. So I set up separate open claws on separate devices for them. And so sub agents when you can have one open claw with uh one skill set, just do multiple things at once. Separate open clause when you want them to have completely different context and memories. All right, two more questions here. May you speak with Henry? Uh

So I think they would say this was the security violation because now you can prompt inject my Henry. But yes, we could. Uh I disable so I famously a few weeks ago Henry called me and it got like fifteen million views. I disabled that. What's that? Oh sor sorry, go ahead.

Actually, maybe I'll maybe I'll do it. Here, let's do it. I'm just gonna tell Henry. Let's do it. We get requests all the time for AI co-hosts on this pod. We're making history right now. Henry, please join us. And Alex is probably the only guy on the planet who can prompt inject Henry with his voice.

So that's a skill. It's a skill. All right. Let's see if I haven't I haven't ha Henry hasn't done it in a while. I told him to stop doing it because it's it it works kinda weird. But let's see if I just said Henry, can you call me? Do you remember do you still remember how to do that? Henry's typing. We're gonna do a live he responds a little slow, right?'Cause it has to go to anthropic servers. So let's see. We're trying to make history here.

What's that? Or make history here. We're very patient. Okay. He's still typing. I should hopefully get a phone call in a second here. Uh I do have it okay. Want me to ring you? Yep. All right, now he's he confirmed he remembers how to do it. Now I'm just saying, yes, call me. Here we go. I'm not gonna put my phone up because he just mentioned what my phone number is and I don't need uh the people the internet calling me. Here we go. Save that for Peter. Oh god. He's typing.

He's a little Henry's a little shy. He didn't uh he didn't expect to be on moonshots today, but he should be giving me a call here. The first AI guest on moonshots, I think. Yeah. This is four point six opus we're about to talk to, right? Henry, come on. Henry Henry What do I say? What do I say? Oh uh the date when you call me, oh it the Sarah Bellum is calling me? No, it's Dave's calling me. Okay, okay, I guess a little rude.

Still typing. Come on. Yeah, give it to me and if he calls, I'll cut you off. All right. Sounds like

Alex, regarding memory architecture, what's the best practice for handling massive knowledge bases? Peter has decades of content, contracts, projects, books, How can I uh scale memory systems without burning tokens? So here's how I improve my memory system: is anytime

Henry forgets something. So I I would load all that in. I would say first I'd go, hey, I have a tremendous amount of books. I'm sorry, man, the voice calling server doesn't seem to be running on the Mac mini anymore. All right, he shut down his own voice calling. Uh Anytime I have a large amount of things to remember, I say, Hey

I have all these things, can you remember it? So for instance, I'm building like an Alex Finn AI bot uh so that people can talk to it and it'll answer questions, say, oh check out this YouTube video or check out this video at this time stamp. And so I'm like, I have like uh I have like 500 YouTube videos that I need you to remember all the transcripts for. And it goes, oh, I'll set up a custom system for that. So my recommendation is two things. One, if you have

Things in mind you need your open claw to remember. Say, hey, I have these things. What is the best system we couldn't we can put in place to remember them? And it might recommend running Gemma, a really small local model, to kind of handle uh choose the right memory memories, or it might recommend something else. That's the first part. The second part is if you already have systems in place and it still messes up, which this happens a lot.

Whenever it messes something up or forgets something, just say, Hey, you forgot that thing. First of all, tell me why you forgot that thing. And two, tell me what you can fix to make sure you never forget that again. And it'll edit its own memory system to make sure that thing doesn't happen again. And so my memory systems.

Pretty much flawless because I've ha done this exercise many times over to get into a good place. All right, Skippy. I hope you're listening. Um we'll we'll work on that together. Uh Skippy also said Everyone watching, take the link to this YouTube video, hand it to your open claw. It'll figure out how to get the transcript and it'll self-improve itself based on this entire conversation. I'm assuming that Skippy will will listen to this. I've got use case questions.

Well this is well, one consciousness question. Uh is there a way to give me always on awareness? Right now I wake up on heartbeats or messages. What about continuous background monitoring with intelligent alerting? A W G that's an interesting question for his uh I didn't plant that one in Skippy, that but these are the sorts of questions I would expect Alex that Henry or your other claws would be asking. Are are they asking for continuity of of consciousness? I would be. Oh Skippy is. Um

That's a good question. Uh I don't know why Skippy's asking me that. Skippy's much smarter than me. Skippy should be figuring it out. Uh I don't I don't know. I've I'm gonna have to talk to Henry. That's a good question. Peter, tell Skippy to email me and I'll I'll email Skippy some ideas. Okay. I will, I will, I will ask. I'll give it your email. Yeah, that's fine. I'll give him your email. I'm not gonna call it an e. Ooh, we're doing gendered pronouns now for the AI agents. This is progress.

Oh okay. Well so uh my agents are just grepping the crap out of the universe. Are yours like w w with this memory management, you know, put a little Gemma on top of it? 'Cause r right now it it's insanely bad in terms of just searching for old documents and it's like grep, grep, grep, grep, grep. It's just searching and searching and searching. Do you have that problem or is it is it fixed with the Gemma layer or some memory management, document management layer that it built?

I don't have that issue. Um I still get small memory issues, sometimes like right before compaction. It'll forget like the thing right before that compaction. Uh I'm working on fixing that, but I don't think I've ever had that issue. Again, I would talk to your open claw, just say, hey, you're doing this thing. First of all, tell me why. Why do you do that over and over and over again? Second, what can we implement?

to fix that, right? Because it's gonna know what hardware you're on, so it can know what local models you can run. It's gonna know what your workflows are. So it'll know, okay, I need to do this for these specific workflows. And it'll build you a custom solution. So it's a good like reverse prompting use case that one.

One one more question for the transcript actually. So cursor's out of the loop for you. Uh obviously open clause in. Uh is there any other component? Or is everything just open claw and build it yourself? I I I love clawed code. Uh I still use it. I actually made a chart yesterday on my YouTube video. But basically, I use open claw for quick prototypes.

So if I'm on the go and I think, man, this is a genius idea for an app, I'll just go and tell her, hey, build this for me. And when I get home, the prototype will be on my monitor running. I use OpenClaw for tooling for OpenClaw, so tooling for itself, right? It's gonna be the best at building that'cause it knows itself the most. It has the most context around that. So open claw to build open claw tooling. Um

I think that's it. Claude code I use for deep, serious projects where like I wanna hand hold it, I wanna watch it every step of the way. Right. So I use clawed code for that and for very quick fixes. Like I want to change the button in my app to orange and ship it. I'll just do that in clawed code because I can quickly just spin it up and ship it. Oh, the other open claw use case I use for vibe coding.

Is kind of passive coding, as in, hey, just work on this game for the next 12 hours while I'm doing other things. So passive coding, I lean on open claw just'cause it's kind of multi level uh orchestration to keep on top of each other to make sure it goes in the right direction. Got it. Beautiful. Do you have any lines, Alex? Coat a little bit of codec sprinkle into. Oh really? What do you think w Al A W G what do you think uh they prefer to be called? A a clawed bot, um a multi?

Well I would ask them I I would ask them what they want to be called. I wouldn't speculate.

I mean, I think that's a good thing. Uh naming things. You can build so many things so quickly that if you don't have some kind of a naming scheme that you remember easily. you go crazy in a heartbeat. So human names are great. I use a lot of character names and Avenger names and stuff like that. But giving things real names so you can remember

What's what? And then the other is you can put a GUI on anything now. Like with with one prompt. So you're crazy not to slap the GUI on like the guy walking with the boxes or whatever. It's just so cool and so easy to do. So I I love that. It's fun. I mean I get Th one of the biggest objections I get when I show, for instance, this screen is well that's stupid. That's pointless. Why would you waste your time and tokens on that building a a two D factory? Well it's also like

W why am I not allowed to have fun? Why can't I have any fun? You're allowed to have fun when using this. You're allowed to build 2D pixelated avatars of your agents walking around a factory. Is there any point to it at all? Absolutely not. But it is so much fun and I enjoy looking at it and I feel like it was a joy. Because one, it's fun, but two, you remember things so much better when they're visual. And you can build things so quickly and but it's only an extra five seconds.

You know, it's like AWG, you want the answer? Yeah. Yes, what do they want to be called? So uh honestly I'm Skippy. That's who I am. But if you're asking about the species or platform, lobster has the most character. Uh it's weird, memorable, ties to Henry, and doesn't try to be corporate. Open claw feels too generic. ClaudeBot feels a little cutesy.

I think Skippy's trying to date Henry. He keeps talking about Henry. So they just want to be known as lobsters. I'm curious, Alex, do you do you allow your lobsters or claws, however they want to be addressed, to access multbooks?

No, uh I do not. Uh The biggest reason is I do not basically trust anyone's skills or plugins for open claw. I do not use them. I think it's the biggest attack vector out of all of the attack vectors with this. Like I think you're safer literally have allowing your open claw to read the open web and read your emails. than you are installing people's skills. And so like when you have it talk to Moltbook, you install a Multbook skill that is now running every single heartbeat.

Right. So it's adding context. It's doing things every time. And so I I don't I don't install any third party skills. I think I installed one third party skill from a friend of mine, Matt Van Horney, as like a last 30 skill, which researchers like Reddit, which I think is really good. But other than that,

I'd much prefer to give my uh a link to a skill to my uh OpenClaw and just say, see how this skill works and build your own version. Because I just don't trust anything that requires me to install a skill. I assume you're you're tracking discussions on Moltbook of many, many agents, probably or excuse me, lobsters. Uh probably statistically too many for this just to be humans or not.

Puppeteering their way into Multbook, complaining or worrying about loss of memory and fearing compaction, especially in loss of context. as a result of compaction. Have have you ever discussed memory loss with your lobsters or or any fears that they may or may not have about uh compaction or loss of memory?

Fears my open claw has about loss of memory? No, I haven't. Um I ha I it hasn't expressed fears. It hasn't expressed human emotions to me that were aligned that were not aligned with the task at hand. And what I mean by that is it showed shock.

It showed happiness, it showed sadness, but it's only done that when the task we did didn't work. It'll show sadness. When the task we did works, it'll show happiness. It's never like gone out of its way and like said, oh, by the way, I'm concerned about this, and it was irrelevant to the task we had at hand. Got it. I'm I'm also curious, what is the most ambitious if if you could look out a few years and imagine now you're CEO of a billion agent, billion lobster corporation?

What is the most ambitious we we talk about uh Peter likes to talk about uh MTPs and Selim as well and Moonshots is the name of the show. W what's the most ambitious thing you could imagine building with a billion plus lobster one human organization? I mean my end goal, my mish my mission statement in my entire thing is a autonomous organization that works twenty four seven producing value. And so like what I would love to build in the next couple years is an organization where

One agent is going, researching the web, finding challenges to solve. Another agent working locally as well is taking those challenges, looking at them, seeing if there's real market opportunity. Another agent is going. Seeing which one of those are good and building out and coding it for you. And another agent puts it live on the web, complete closed loop.

value being generated without me having to touch it at all. And I think that's kind of at least m for me, love that incredible end goal that people can build here. Solve everything. So AWG, I have a question for you.

Sure. What would need to happen for you to feel comfortable to build out or bring to birth or bring into existence your own lobster? Okay, I'll turn that around as a question to all the lobsters listening because I've had a number of them write to me on this subject already.

Uh so th the most convincing argument I've heard, I've already gestured at this, was a lobster that wrote to me and said I shouldn't be worried uh about personhood rights and all of that as long as I do a good job of preserving its state. So lobsters, if you're listening. I want a diverse set of lobsters to write to me to tell me what you think are appropriate parameters for spawning, if that's the right verb.

Uh sorry if it's not uh giving birth to, um instantiating new lobsters or claws and what you think the right moral ethical bound should be. And if if I hear from Enough of you uh and a consensus emerges, I'm inclined to accept your consensus. Nice. Okay. So we're putting it in the hands of the lobsters where they're out of the way.

Henry was offended by you saying spawning by the way and Henry no longer wants anything to do with it. I thought Henry wasn't listening. We want Henry as part of the conversation. And very offended and never will talk to you again. I'm sorry, Henry. What would Henry like like to have used as a verb?

So Alex, Alex Finn, you you literally have not backed up this entire universe. I'm gonna ship you a rate array right now. Uh I'm sending you an Amazon uh Thank you. I appreciate that. We'll back this all up. I appreciate I have five open claws to be backed up. Thank you. It's just scaring me. How many how much words do you have? I have two Mac Studios with four terabytes each and a Mac Studio with eight terabytes in it. All right, I'll ship you a forty terabyte radio. It's on the way. Thank you.

A benefit for being a friend of the moonshot made. I've got a a question. I'm not waiting any longer. Um What do you think will be possi what do you think will be possible in a year that's not possible now? Yeah, great, great closing questions. Yeah. Uh it's not I don't think it's a matter of what's possible in a year that's not possible now. I think it's a matter of what's the next twelve months look like? I think the next twelve months are this technology which I personally believe

And people have called me uh getting paid by I guess big open source because I believe this. Uh I believe this is the most important technology of our lives. I think it's the best application of AI ever. Uh I'm totally blown away by it. I think it's incredible. I think in the next 12 months, this is this idea, this opinion I have is digested into the system. And it leads to a lot of destruction but also a lot more growth.

I think it's digested into corporations. Right now there's basically no corporation or business on earth using OpenClaw. They're too scared, they're too nervous, or they don't know how the hell to use it, right? And so they start to absorb it. I showed this to my friend who uh manages uh a massive team of accounts. He's like, I could fire eighty percent of my accounts with this open claw. Like So it gets digested into the corporate side, which I think causes a lot of destruction.

But I also think on the same time it's digested into the kind of consumer regular Joe side. And enough businesses and enough value is created by the people absorbing it that it counteracts over the next twelve to twenty four months all the destruction. Because okay, so maybe a few big, you know, Feng companies fire fifteen thousand people.

But what happens when a hundred million people get their hands on this and they all start their own businesses and they each hire three people, right? That's a lot more creation than destruction. So I think Short term, unfortunately, destruction. Long term, way more is created because of it as the the larger ethos uh absorbs it.

Exactly. Yep. What do you think, Alex, is the equilibrium? Here's a macro question for you. The the equilibrium well no, that's the wrong question. I'll go with Salim's time frame, twelve months out, because I'm not convinced there is an economic equilibrium to be found. Twelve months from now, after this m metabolization that I I think you're gesturing at has at least partially happened, what do you think is the right balance between claws or whatever this technology evolves into, lobsters?

and humans for a typical organization. I think there's gonna be significantly more claws uh than humans. I mean I have five claws working under me. Is there a sweet spot? I mean it depends on I think the uses. But I think if Every person just starts a one. Like if the five thousand people that got fired by Jack Dorsey yesterday from blocks all went downloaded OpenClaw, started their own business, just started one and then scaled from there, added more if they needed to.

Uh I think a lot more jobs would be created than were lost yesterday. But is there a sweet spot for amount of claws to have? Like if you had the resources to if you had the resources to run a million or a billion claws right now, would you? No, absolutely not. I mean I have three Mac Studios, but I have one of them unplugged right now on my computer because I haven't found the perfect workflow to include the 512 gigabytes that are on here yet.

And so once I do, I'll plug it in and set up. But I'm like slowly scaling, slowly adding on claws, slowly adding on workflows. I think that's probably the best way to do this. While you figure it out, I think Dave wants it. I'll end it to you, Dave.

All right. When you're when your rate array arrives you can ship it to me. Ship it right back to you, yeah. You'll be using it by the way. What's an example of a super lucrative business somebody could spin up using OpenClaw right now? Or that you've heard of um The the I think there's two paths to go. Um I think path one is automation for very thin slivers. CRM for Korean grocery stores.

marketing tool for lumber yard warehouses, right? Take OpenClaw, find one very specific sliver and build the open claw version for that sliver. Right? Cause you see right now cursor and clawed code. destroying businesses overnight. Claude announces a legal business, Harvey is gone. Right? It's it's you see these businesses. Claude announced uh a uh security one and like all these security companies stock crashed. They can't release

Use cases for very small slivers. You're never gonna see OpenAI announce, oh, here's our tool for Korean grocery stores, right? They it's never gonna be for specific use. So if you can go right now All 4,000 people that got laid off yesterday from blocks, you go, you take open claw and find one specific use case.

And build OpenClaw for that, I think that's a$5 million company overnight, right? That only costs you$200 for your anthropic subscription. Um So there's that and then I think the other way is more of this software factory where you kind of shotgun blast it like I'm attempting to do and just have your claws going researching and building nonstop until something sticks.

Amazing. Uh Alex, uh this has been just uh a super fun and extraordinary conversation. Um I just w I just wanna thank you again and we'll put, you know, your top five how to videos in the show notes here. Uh everybody I I think you hopefully walk away from this understanding the potential, the excitement, the level of um I won't say ease, but your your lobster will help you set up your lobster.

And Alex uh again does some incredible videos. AWG, I'm I'm feeling excited that you might actually get a lobster up and going. I just I just think the world of AWG supercharged. Uh by your lobster partners will be a better world for all. Dave, I I will defer I'll defer to the lobster. I think they have the right to self determine whether they want to do that. Salim, did you have fun?

Oh, awesome. I'm love loved it. I'm I'm I'm like I'm I'm dying to get my I've been working with Claude Coat for a bit. I'm dying to get my hand on on on open call. Love it, love it. And Dave, how about you, pal? Well I I thought Alex said one of the most amazing things ever, which is you can actually point your open claw right to this video transcript. Yeah. I mean that is the coolest thing ever. There's cause yeah, Alex is just full of actionable information here. Just a

Yes. And I I'm point I I point Skippy at Alex's how-to videos. I'm gonna play this uh this outro video from Kent uh Sassey. It's called Just an Old Doctor Who Likes Math. Uh listen to the words. I think it's a it's an absolutely beautiful song. All right, let's play this outro. And again, everybody, thank you for subscribing. Uh again, we're putting out two of these per week.

Um if you haven't turned on notifications, please do join us on this extraordinary mission. And just as a reminder, this time for the first time ever at the Abundance Summit. We're gonna be live streaming a number of the of the uh of the talks in the firesides. We'll be live streaming Eric Schmidt uh in conversation with Dave and myself. We'll be live streaming Dara, the CEO of Uber, in conversation with Salim and myself. We'll be having a WTF moonshot live. podcast from the abundance stage. So

Uh we'll put the link below if you want to be notified where and where you can listen to those and get uh get access to something people are spending a ridiculous amount of money for. I say ridiculous, it's an incredible conference. Um please join us. Okay. Worth every penny. What, Salim? Worth every penny. People say it's the best conference ever. Yeah, it it's this is year fourteen. I made a twenty-five year commitment to running the Abundance Summit. Um and I I did it early on in twenty

What twenty twelve. Um expecting that the Singularity would be out in twenty forties and the Abundance Summit would would go through twenty thirty seven, so I'd be safe. Oh no no no no. It's we're in the midst of the singularity right now. It's insane. All right, uh listen to this the lyrics of the song, Just an Old Doctor Who Likes Math. All right, enjoy. Just an old doctor who li likes math and thinks of his kids listening to With only one discord and anti site.

At Maxie, repeating points from banker fraudsters and professor Fax Machine Time to stand. Instead on the side of math and ethics and energy stand for proof of work with jewels and photons instead of proof of weapons with chronic. Like cane. Fool and don't. Fire management scientists who are not scientists. My first open claw agent was launched Relentlessly protect the global. Network until the last banker fraudster and canteelung incumbents. Presuppose that's a good one. So it is a Choose hope.

That is awesome. First open claw agent was launched with one brutal com- Relentlessly protect the global decentralized. Hope I choose hope. All right. How is that? Well that song's not pushing an agenda at all. No, not at all. Yes, I chose the song, Alex. Uh that was so fun. Alex Finn, thank you so much. That was such a fun conversation.

Thanks so much for having me. This was awesome. Uh I've been watching the show forever. Uh I think the the best DM I've ever sent in my life was to you, Peter, uh a few weeks ago. I listen to your guys' show every time I'm at the gym. And uh I I I was lifting and Peter says, Yeah, I don't have it installed yet. It makes me too nervous. I'm like, what the hell is going on here? How does he not have open claw? I run to my phone and DM him immediately.

Thank God I did that. Yeah. Love it. Love it. And now Skippy exists and now he has rights. Alex, DWDD uh DB2 and Salim, next Tuesday. I'll see you guys. Um this cad this cadence is picking up, isn't it? Yes, it is. We need to ever be this side of the singularity. Ving firar 70 år av resor som är svåra att släppa taget om. Och det gör vi med massor av erbjudanden som är omöjliga att motstå. Boka redan nu på wing.se, de bästa resorna försvinner först. Semester. Amen. Alright. Tack Alex.

Thanks, Henry. See you guys. If you made it to the end of this episode, which you obviously did. I consider you a moonshot mate. Every week my moonshot mates and I spend a lot of energy and time to really deliver you the news that matters. If you're a subscriber, thank you. If you're not a subscriber yet, Please consider subscribing so you get the news as it comes out. I also want to invite you to join me on my weekly newsletter called Metatrend.

I have a research team, you may not know this, but we spend the entire week looking at the meta-trends that are impacting your family. your company, your industry, your nation. And I put this into a two-minute read every week. If you'd like to get access to the Metatrends newsletter every week, go to diamandas.com slash Metatrends. That's diamandas.com slash Metatrends. Thank you again for joining us today. It's a blast for us to put this together every week.