Ep 14 -final
[00:00:00] Mary: [00:00:00] Monsters walk with us in teens, explicit language, adult themes, violence, and may not be suitable for listeners under 18 listener discretion is strongly advised
this week. I have a special guest joining me. Caitlin. Why don't you tell everybody how we know each other?
Caitlyn: [00:00:24] Hi, I'm Caitlin. I use she, her, her pronouns. I met Mary at CU Boulder. She was my advisor for an organization. I was a part of, and we just kept in touch after I graduated. And now I'm a teacher.
Mary: [00:00:38] And this week I have a case cherry pick just for you because we're talking about education.
Caitlyn: [00:00:43] Ooh, that should be interesting. I feel
it.
Mary: [00:00:46] Content warnings for this case are grooming sexual abuse and domestic violence. This week's case is the murder of Greg smart. There was a movie made about this case with Nicole Kidman in it called sex [00:01:00] lies and videotape. And I remember seeing this movie when I was in college and thinking, wow, her life is kind of like my life.
The sources I used for this case are Wikipedia and the article sex lies and murder by Jan Bouchard. Curr, Pamela smart was born Pamela and Wolf Haas in Windham, New Hampshire on August 16th, 1967. She grew up in Miami, Florida, and her family eventually moved to Canobie Lake New Hampshire when she was in eighth grade, Pamela attended high school at Pinkerton Academy in Derry, New Hampshire, and she was a cheerleader.
She was known for being very funny. And she was fairly popular. People knew her and people liked her. She wrote in her yearbook that her goal was to dance the night away with David Lee Roth.
Caitlyn: [00:01:48] Naturally.
Mary: [00:01:50] Do you know who that is?
But I can imagine.
Oh my gosh. I love having young people on here so much.
Honestly. I love you kids. You keep me, [00:02:00] so have you heard of the band van Halen? David Lee. Rob is the front man. Pam really wanted to become a news anchor and decided to pursue a career in journalism, which is also what I wanted to do with my life. Pam describes herself as the typical Leo she's quoted as saying, you know, I walk in, I have to be the center of everything everywhere I go.
I'm always attracting attention for some reason or another. I'm very loud. I'm outgoing
Caitlyn: [00:02:28] My best friend's a Leo. I feel like her and I would get along.
Mary: [00:02:31] Pam is very, very organized down to color coding, all of her clothes and laundry, clean and dirty. She really likes her systems and she doesn't respond well when her schedules are just,
Caitlyn: [00:02:44] She literally sounds like my best friend.
Mary: [00:02:47] Hopefully that changes soon. Pam, I went to Florida state university and majored in communications. While at FSU, she had been the host of a college radio program. [00:03:00] She was known as the Maidan of metal. That was her on-air nickname. And she had a show called metal madness. Some more of my similarities with Pam are that I also had a radio nickname and I also hosted several radio shows when I was in college.
My radio nickname, the first one was patio furniture. Okay. I like it. And then I just went by Mario. That's how people know me. So she had this show called metal madness and doing these notes made me think about all my shows that I had in college. I had one show that was called the buzz cuts. That was all rock music.
A lot of nineties rock. I was supposed to have a show called Zack and Mary make a radio show, which was a play on the movie. Zach and MIRI make a porno that had come out like that year. But the kids Zach got kicked out of me.
Caitlyn: [00:03:54] So, Oh, my word, what happened to him?
Mary: [00:03:58] I think he might've [00:04:00] had some white powder illicit substances, if you know what I'm saying?
I mean, yeah. So that ended up just being Mary makes a radio show, which was like the least favorite title of all of my shows. I had one show called I'll play what I want. Sounds like what it says on the 10. I just played everything. I was in the mood for at the time. And my senior year, I had another show and I actually had a co-host for that show is the only time I ever did that with a girl named Merita that I was really good friends with.
And that one was called. That's what she said. I like it. You can tell the age on some of this stuff of what was popular at the time.
Caitlyn: [00:04:39] Yeah.
Mary: [00:04:39] So having done radio and having some experience with the music industry as a result of that, it can be very intoxicating to be close to fame and you know, it's rock and roll.
People are interested. It's sexy. It's fun. Pam also very much enjoys this aspect of being the metal maiden. [00:05:00] And I remember when I was in college, I talked to some medium famous local band dudes. And that was like, Oh my God, I'm so cool. Which it wasn't. But you know, it feels different when you're like 20.
Yeah, yeah. A lot, a lot more things are fun and exciting when you're 20. Pam is the radio station promotions director. So she gets to go backstage and she gets to hand out passes and she gets to schmooze and be around metal bands that were really popular at the time. Like scorpion and Whitesnake. Have you ever heard of either of those two?
No
Scorpions is famous for the song.
Rock you like a hurricane?
No, no,
I haven't heard of them
and Whitesnake is known for the song here I go again on my own.
Okay.
It's okay. They're eighties. It's pretty eighties like metal [00:06:00] hair metal. You know what I'm talking about? The glam metal with the big hair.
Caitlyn: [00:06:03] Where they like mainstream?
Mary: [00:06:05] Yes, they were pretty mainstream.
Caitlyn: [00:06:07] The most mainstream I get, honestly, I don't even know if this counts is metal Def Leppard.
Mary: [00:06:12] Yeah. That's like in the same, you know, same timeframe, ish. Yeah. So Pam enjoys this quite a bit. Pam meets Gregory smart. When she is visiting New Hampshire over Christmas break in 1986 Pam's dad works for an airline.
So she traveled back and forth between Florida and New Hampshire quite a bit when she was in college. She meets Greg at a new year's Eve party. And by February, 1987, they're in a serious relationship. They get married two years later and Greg actually moves to Florida and lives with Pam during her senior year at FSU.
Greg also loves heavy metal music. He has long Brown hair. He wears like the ripped jeans and he's doing [00:07:00] the whole hair metal glam rock kind of look. Pam describes the relationship at this time as picture. Perfect. Everything was great. They're just two metal heads in love. She talks about him like his long hair.
He was like Bon Jovi. And he was so sexy, which like, okay, Pam, I don't see the Bon Jovi resemblance. I'll show you some pictures of them and you can be the judge, but it's not there for me. It's not even halfway there for me to make a Bon Jovi joke. After Pam graduates, she and Greg moved back to New Hampshire and they get a nice little, two bedroom condo in dairy.
It's in a pretty nice neighborhood and everything is like peachy keen. There are two metal heads and love Tommy and Gina living the dream. And Pam gets a new little puppy, a beautiful little Shitzu, and they named the dog Halen after van Halen. [00:08:00] What else would you do? They also get a white leather couch and just really focus on making their condo as tacky, but probably pretty to pay them as possible.
Caitlyn: [00:08:13] I can imagine it. I'm getting mad. Eighties fives
Mary: [00:08:17] Like white leather vibes.
Caitlyn: [00:08:20] I would not with like a dog.
Mary: [00:08:23] I would never, I don't even like white pants. Oh my gosh. Greg's parents actually live only a block away from them. And they're pretty involved in Greg and Pam's lives. Greg starts talking about how good Pam is going to be at being a mom, because she really dotes on Halen.
She treats him like a little sweet baby angel that he is, and it sounds like he's pretty spoiled because she actually cooks dinner for him every night. I feel the need to point out that I cooked lunch for two dogs yesterday. I made [00:09:00] them bacon and eggs, but it was a very rare treat. Not an every day thing.
No shame. If that's what you do. Greg gets a job with his dad's company as an insurance salesman, and he begins the transition from heavy quotes, Bon Jovi. Bad boy with the floppy hair and the leather jacket and the jeans. And he starts to become like pretty square. He cuts his hair short, which Pam hates, and he has to start wearing suits to work. He's like becoming an adult.
Caitlyn: [00:09:32] Is it like the, what a girl wants Colin Firth?
Mary: [00:09:35] Yes. Yes. About seven months into their marriage. They start having problems in their relationship. Not only did Greg cut his hair and start wearing these business clothes. He also cheated on Pam and he told her about it.
Caitlyn: [00:09:51] Uh, some points for honesty, I guess, right?
Half a point
Mary: [00:09:56] 1890 PM gets a job working at a local high school [00:10:00] as a media services coordinator. At this time, Pam is 22. She is. Making media like making videos and doing instructional or informational little clips with the students for like some local charities and organizations. Pam is very popular with these kids.
She's not that much older than them, so there's not that much of an age gap. And we know that Pam likes to be the cool girl. Just like some people that we know from our time in higher ed together, Pam is more focused on being liked and having fun than actually working meaningfully with these kids and having boundaries for it to be healthy.
Caitlyn: [00:10:50] I could not imagine like, As a teacher, myself. Yeah. You want to be the cool teacher and you want to be relatable to these kids, but they also have to be able to [00:11:00] respect you as an authority figure and have that respect for you on a professional level. Like we need some boundaries here.
Mary: [00:11:06] Cannot just be friends with the students that you're working with.
No matter what age they are, there has to be some kind of boundaries.
Caitlyn: [00:11:14] Exactly.
Mary: [00:11:15] Especially with high school kids. Because they're gonna push the boundaries as much as they can and you can't be. So enveloped and wanting to be liked that you just are like, yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. I'm going to let them give an inch and take a mile.
Caitlyn: [00:11:32] Exactly. And I mean, you hinted the content warning being grooming. Like I know I'm 23 years old. If I working in a high school, those boundaries can be blurred a lot easier than perhaps like a more veteran teacher. And you know, if a student thinks that you're cute, are you, are you sorry? You think that a student's cute.
Like it's just, yeah, it's too much. You have to set those boundaries [00:12:00] pretty firm to be like, I'm an adult, you're still a child stay away from me.
Mary: [00:12:05] And as someone who was groomed. It really is this power dynamic. You're young. You don't understand I'm 32. Now I cannot look at someone who is in high school or even in their twenties and see that as somebody who is attractive in any way to me.
So it's incomprehensible to me. The other thing is that Pam didn't go to school for education. She's not trained as a teacher. And she has no experience working with volunteer kids or anything. So she's just really going into this with like her radio background, where she wants to be the cool heavy metal chick.
Caitlyn: [00:12:46] Yeah.
Mary: [00:12:47] Pam is working with an organization called project self-esteem, which is a local drug awareness program at when a can at high, where some of the high schoolers were volunteering and she [00:13:00] bonds really closely with a few of the teams. Over what else? Their mutual love of heavy metal. All the students love her, but one student in particular takes special notice of Pam.
Mr. Billy Flynn. No, not Richard Gere's character in the movie version of Chicago. He is white. He has long Brown metal head hair. He plays the guitar. And he is a high school boy. So he looks like a high school. Boy, Billy likes to wear leather jackets. He's got the flannel, he's got one pierced ear. He's serving the full nineties, bad boy fantasy.
Billy pretty much immediately is smitten with Pam. Like upon meeting her is like, wow. He starts becoming like a total teacher's pet to try to get close to Pam. He is volunteering for extra projects and he's trying to do whatever he can to try to just [00:14:00] spend time with her and become closer with her. Pam immediately knows that Billy has a crush on her, but because she has a very fucked up mind, she is into it.
Caitlyn: [00:14:14] I wish this was a, like a visual show. Cause like my face right now, it's a no, for me,
Mary: [00:14:23] it's just disgusting.
Caitlyn: [00:14:25] It's just, ugh, that's like so creepy.
Mary: [00:14:28] Yeah. It's gross. Pam is flattered by the attention. She feels like this cool mature older woman, and Greg just cheated on her. So with this extra confidence boost, now she's feeling good as hell
Caitlyn: [00:14:44] and the natural response. Ooh, let's entertain this 17 year old,
Mary: [00:14:48] correct. Instead of being like this is disgusting vomit noises that we both did before. She decides to lead into this crush and start to feed it and even encourage it [00:15:00] again. Billy is a child. Yeah. I said he was 17. He's not 17. He's 15.
Caitlyn: [00:15:06] You know that little, um, knock. You just heard that was my jaw hitting the floor. That's exponentially worse.
Mary: [00:15:13] He was 15. Not that 17 is better, still just as bad. So these kids that she's palling around with are sophomores in high school.
Caitlyn: [00:15:24] This is like pretty little liars. Oh my gosh.
Mary: [00:15:27] You wanna just do a check-in of like, how are we feeling at this point?
Disgusted?
Caitlyn: [00:15:31] Yeah. It's just so gross. It's like, I mean, obviously people like to feel pretty or whatever, but like to feed into that.
Mary: [00:15:40] It's a human need to feel desired. Everybody can understand that, but most people can also understand when that is an appropriate thing to enjoy and participate in. And when you have to be like you are a child, get away from me.
Caitlyn: [00:15:56] Exactly. I think, you know, if I were in her [00:16:00] position, I would probably be like, Oh, that's so sweet. And then like have a, an honest adult conversation about like, this is not appropriate. This is why now do your work. And then I would, I would let an administrator know, that's the responsible thing to do, whether or not you have that training to me.
And maybe it's just my background, you know, feeding this, but like, that's just common sense to me. I feel like any responsible adult would do that.
Mary: [00:16:32] In grad school, I worked with a student who very obviously had a thing for me. He wasn't really making it a secret. I didn't find him attractive. I was 23. I think he was 21.
I still was like, gross. You're a student here. Like, this is weird. I work here. Like I'm not crossing these lines. And so I feel like with that experience, I'm more judgmental of Pam. I didn't go through [00:17:00] any special training decides to becoming an RA and learning. Like, there's a power dynamic. It's just disgusting.
Caitlyn: [00:17:06] There's really not any way that you can look at it. That makes it okay. The fact that she was like into this.
I remember like I, when I was a freshman in high school, me and a bunch of other girls, um, thought that the new language arts teacher was so cute, like we were tweeting about it. And apparently the, this basketball team that he coached down in Southern Colorado Springs found out about it.
And he like sat us all down and he was like, this is not okay. I'm embarrassed. Like, this is how it feels to me. And so. After that conversation. I was like, it wasn't directly to me. It was like me and a bunch of people in the organization. We were a part of who were mainly perpetuating it. But after that conversation, I felt so bad and I was like, Hey, like, we'll stop.
Mary: [00:17:53] It makes you understand the impact that it's having. And most people learn that in high school at some point.
Caitlyn: [00:17:59] Yeah. [00:18:00] Right.
Mary: [00:18:00] Or at some point you understand that what, whatever feelings you have, aren't reciprocated or someone likes you. And you're like this isn't a good idea or no, for whatever reason, just Pam.
Fuck you. Let's just start with that already because you're the worst. Literally
Caitlyn: [00:18:17] for the record, my best friend would never.
Mary: [00:18:21] That trains departed onto a different track.
Caitlyn: [00:18:25] Absolutely.
Mary: [00:18:26] I mean, yeah, mine left, you know, when she started working at the high school, cause I never wanted to work with kids.
College students was acceptable to me, but no thank you. No high school. No, thank you.
Caitlyn: [00:18:38] Yeah.
Mary: [00:18:38] Billy's best friend Cecelia. Heres also becomes really close with Pam during this timeframe. And Cecilia becomes Pam's best friend and right-hand person at project self-esteem. So they spend a ton of time together.
Billy had grown up in a very volatile home until his mom moved him from California [00:19:00] to New Hampshire after leaving his dad very shortly after they moved, his dad died in a car accident. Billy has two best friends Jr. Lattime and Pete Randall. Allegedly, Pete had said that he really wanted to grow up and become a Hitman. Goals question mark?
Caitlyn: [00:19:18] Yeah. Um, some direction after high school, I guess
I've never really heard of someone saying I want to grow up and kill people... openly.
Yeah. That's just like,
Mary: [00:19:31] that's next level, dude.
Caitlyn: [00:19:33] That's like maybe like in a super dystopian society where that's the norm. That would be a really great goal.
Mary: [00:19:42] This is also 1990.
I feel like if this happened now, like if someone like tweeted that, or if somebody was saying that or they made a tech talk, I feel like there would be a response. Whereas in the nineties, people probably were like, ah, [00:20:00] okay, whatever.
Caitlyn: [00:20:01] Oh, absolutely.
Mary: [00:20:03] Like he's just trying to be an edge Lord.
In late March, 1990, Greg travels out of town for work.
Pam is home alone and she invites Billy and Cecilia over for a movie night. Cecilia says that she'll take Halen out to go potty and real quick. This Tokyo drifts from Netflix and chill to VHS and fuck.
Caitlyn: [00:20:28] We went to blockbuster. Oh my God.
Mary: [00:20:31] The next few weeks after this, they continue to maintain a secret sexual relationship and began running around behind everyone's back.
Caitlyn: [00:20:40] No.
Mary: [00:20:42] So she's manipulating Billy into this sexual relationship and then further making it this abusive environment by enforcing that it has to be a secret and they could get in trouble and putting all of this. Gross [00:21:00] abusive strings on the situation.
Yeah. That's just not okay.
On Tuesday May 1st, 1990 Greg gets ready and leaves for work around 9:45 AM.
Pam leaves shortly after to head to the high school. And this was their usual routine. Pam has meetings after school and on this night she knew she wouldn't be getting home until around 10:00 PM. When she pulls up to the house, she notices all the lights are off, which is very strange because Greg should be home.
And on the nights where Pam has this late meeting, Greg always leaves the porch light and the lights on for her, his car is there. So she enters the house and she finds Greg lying on the floor. She starts screaming like a banshee and is running to the neighbors and screaming for help, and eventually gets one of the neighbors to let her in.
They call nine one one, and they report that Pam is [00:22:00] hysterical. And you can hear Pam in the background of the nine 11 calls screaming that Greg is passed out.
Caitlyn: [00:22:07] This is reminding me of like a lifetime movie.
Mary: [00:22:09] Nine one, one arrives, but Greg is dead when they get there. The house looks like there might have been a burglary because the house has been ransacked, but the cops quickly see that Greg's wedding ring is so on his finger and the wedding ring has diamonds in it. So it's not very likely that they would have just left that behind. Greg also, still has his wallet on him and it is filled with cash right away. They know this wasn't actually a burglary because they absolutely would not have left cash behind.
The cops know that Pam was at this late meeting at the time of the murder, but they immediately suspect her anyway, most investigations are going to start with the spouse. The person that's closest to the person who's died. The murder occurred Tuesday [00:23:00] May 1st, 1990, and on June 10th, 1990, Jr's dad came into the police. And said he believed that his gun had been used in the murder of Greg smart. He had used the gun a few weeks prior to the murder and did not clean it afterwards. But then when he went to go get the gun a couple of weeks after Greg's murder, the gun was clean. Fishy, fishy. Yeah. He ended up being right, because his gun was actually the murder weapon.
Then the cops got an anonymous tip that Cecilia had information and knowledge about the murder. This anonymous tipster also says that the murder was premeditated and completely planned by Pam.
Caitlyn: [00:23:44] Interesting.
Mary: [00:23:46] I can't believe I got that right. Premeditated and planned by Pam.
So the cops are already interested in Pam, not only because she's the closest person to the deceased, but she's [00:24:00] behaving very strangely.
She's not showing a lot of grief about her loss. And we always know that shock and trauma grief, those things can present differently for people, but the media is immediately super suspicious of her and her behavior. And they start referring to her as the ice queen in their broadcasts. When the police bring her back to the crime scene, she seems to still be very comfortable in the house and she even just walks right over a carpet that had been stained with Greg's blood.
Caitlyn: [00:24:34] I could not.
Mary: [00:24:36] I don't know that I could even go back in the house.
Caitlyn: [00:24:38] No, I mean, I think regardless if I had a hand in it or not.
Yeah. I mean, I can't even imagine just going in there if someone had passed away, non-violently that's the thought of that is terrible.
Mary: [00:24:51] I also imagine her just like twirling around. Being like look at my white leather couch. Look at dah, dah, dah,dah, dah. I don't know that to be true, but in my head, that's the [00:25:00] head cannon that we're working for.
Caitlyn: [00:25:01] I could definitely see it.
Mary: [00:25:03] The cops go to interview Billy Cecilia and Jr. And Cecilia is really the only one who cooperates at all and she starts to explain to the cops that she views Pam, almost like a big sister, they're that kind of close and talks a lot about how close they are and how Pam confides in her. And they really have this open communication between the two of them. Cecilia says that Pam had not only told her that she was in love with Billy Cecilia had actually walked in on them having sex.
Yup. So you've traumatized two people in the process, Pam,
Caitlyn: [00:25:39] Yeah, seriously.
Mary: [00:25:40] Jesus Christ. The cops asked Cecilia to wear a wire and she agrees and the cops tells the Celia what to say. And she meets with Pam at the high school. Cecilia tells Pam that the cops know that she had Greg killed and says that the cops can't think of another reason why Billy and the other boys would want to kill Greg.
[00:26:00] Pam says "yeah. But even if I asked somebody to kill somebody, you'd have to be fucking deranged to say, okay, I will."
Caitlyn: [00:26:08] Wasn't it Jr. The one who said he wanted to be the hitman?
Mary: [00:26:11] Pete was the one who had said he wanted to be the hitman.
Caitlyn: [00:26:13] Interesting. Anyways. Okay. Continue.
Celia responds. As far as I can see it, bill did it because he loves you. Cecilia has no time for your lies, Pam. Seriously, Pam responds "I'm afraid one day, you're going to come in here and you're going to be wired for the fucking police and I'm going to be busted. "
Oh, only if she knew,
I was like, Oh my God. Cecelia was probably Peepeeing her pants.
Yeah. I, I can not keep a straight face. I'd be like, I would just probably just bust out laughing.
Mary: [00:26:46] I think I might be able to keep a straight face just like from my time working in higher ed and not being able to respond how I wanted to in meetings, maybe I could keep a straight face, but that line might crack me.
Caitlyn: [00:26:59] [00:27:00] Oh, absolutely.
Mary: [00:27:01] It was very a few times that my poker face was cracked.
I had to meet with a student who was having problems with her roommate and she told me that her roommate had. Gone around and on every whiteboard in the building written dicks out for her rom Bay. Oh gosh. Yeah. I just, I was like, like I couldn't, I, it was just so funny to me and then I had to like, hold her accountable, but it just was so funny.
Caitlyn: [00:27:35] Yeah.
Mary: [00:27:37] Cecilia tells Pam that she's really getting sick of all this lying versus Celia. It's really taking a toll on her to just keep all of this stuff secret. Pam tells her "listen, I'm just telling you, if you tell the truth, you're going to be an accessory to murder and you know, they're going to put you on the witness stand, and then he's going to say, did you know? And you're going to say no. [00:28:00] And when they ask, did Pam do it? You're going to say no", like on the wire.
Caitlyn: [00:28:05] We love to see it. Honestly.
Mary: [00:28:08] Also all of these people have very thick New Hampshire accents. Yeah.
Caitlyn: [00:28:13] Oh my gosh. I love that.
Mary: [00:28:16] Yeah. The audio footage from this is all online. You can find stuff on YouTube, if you want to go and just listen to some of this stuff, because Pam literally incriminating herself so bad repeatedly, it's amazing.
Beautiful karma for a predatory homicidal bitch.
Yes.
Caitlyn: [00:28:37] Let's just call it what it is.
Mary: [00:28:39] Yes, absolutely. Pam is so gross. Yeah. You're just the worst.
Caitlyn: [00:28:46] I would not talk to her in the break room at lunch.
Mary: [00:28:48] No, no, no. Pam would not be getting like my extra bag of chips because she forgot her lunch.
Caitlyn: [00:28:54] I would say, um, I know it's six feet right now, but I need at least a crisp 32 feet.
[00:29:00] Mary: [00:28:59] Thank you. I feel like Pam is one of those people who always got what she wanted and then just kind of found ways to manipulate people. But then when she got to the stage where she's working with these high schoolers, it just became like a whole nother level because they don't know any better. They don't have any social skills. Or other experiences to be like, Oh, this isn't right.
Caitlyn: [00:29:24] Yeah, they just see her as a super cool person that they can find a friend in. There's going to be little accountability for them. And it's just not a good mix.
Mary: [00:29:37] Pam goes on to tell Cecilia that even if she isn't arrested as an accessory, she's going to have to go to court anyway and testify against Pam and the boys. And she tells Cecilia you're going to send me to the fucking slammah for the rest of my life.
Caitlyn: [00:29:52] Oh, I love that. I want to go back to the East coast.
Mary: [00:29:54] I was like I miss new England.
The level of manipulation of this poor high [00:30:00] school girl, Cecilia, not only just by Pam, but also now the cops are like, you have to be wired every time you talked to Pam.
I can't imagine the bundle of nerves that she is just trying to exist at this time and like get through high school.
Caitlyn: [00:30:14] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that, that would be too much.
Mary: [00:30:19] And to be wearing the wire and for Pam to be like, what's the signal, what's the signal you're going to give me if you wear the wire,
Caitlyn: [00:30:27] I'd be like, um, I don't think that's necessary.
Mary: [00:30:30] This story has everything teenagers, heavy metal sex, extra marital affairs dogs named after van Halen, a clearly very guilty, attractive white woman as a result. It's one of the first cases to really blow up in the new cycle, especially because of all this media coverage. That's been drawing attention about Pam being an ice queen. Because this is before OJ Simpson and it is before the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. So this 24 hour [00:31:00] news cycle and intense focus on these cases just didn't exist in the same way until this one. People from all over New Hampshire are traveling to come and see these proceedings in person. And it's one of the first gavel to gavel trials that is ever broadcast on television.
So, not only are people coming from all over the state to watch it, people are glued to the TV. There are 30 seats reserved for the public at Pam's trial. And crowds of people are camping out overnight. Like it's black Friday at best buy in the before times.
Caitlyn: [00:31:35] Oh my gosh.
Mary: [00:31:37] One guy is interviewed, saying he got there at one 30 in the fricking morning to wait, to try to get in and watch the trial in person. And there's so many people that they actually set aside a whole huge room next door, where they broadcast it on closed circuit television. So all the people who couldn't get in for the 30 seats, just sit next door and watch it as it's [00:32:00] happening.
Caitlyn: [00:32:01] Was this like inspo for black Friday marketing for the 21st century?
Mary: [00:32:07] On the stand, Pam testifies that she and Billy started out just as acquaintances and Billy was really friendly and he's really easy to talk to. And they like all the same music. She says that their relationship changed when they started working on a video project together and they started to grow closer and then she began to have a crush on him. Which is fucking disgusting
Caitlyn: [00:32:33] Grow up. Seriously.
Mary: [00:32:35] Pam, I wouldn't... LIsten if Pam was on fire, I wouldn't piss to put her out.
Caitlyn: [00:32:42] Yeah. Agreed.
Mary: [00:32:45] Pam says that she didn't set out to have an affair with Billy, but she did.
Caitlyn: [00:32:49] Bullshit.
Mary: [00:32:51] Right. You know, what's going on. When a high school boy has a crush on you as a high school girl. Or as a person in high [00:33:00] school, you know, when someone has feelings for you, whether or not you reciprocate them, there are times that you can tell when someone's not making a secret of it, the way Billy was not.
Caitlyn: [00:33:10] Well, I know somebody who like her being the attractive young woman, she was, there was no way she wasn't receiving male attention in that way, where she would be oblivious to that.
Mary: [00:33:25] Yes, especially in male dominated metal radio circles. Yeah.
Pam claims that when she found Greg's body, she had no idea what was going on. And to this day, Pam says that she is completely innocent. The three boys say they were manipulated by Pam and that she had convinced them to murder her husband. Pam had been responsible for planning the whole thing, from what they're saying.
Caitlyn: [00:33:52] I could see it.
Mary: [00:33:54] Yeah, easily, because why else would Billy and these boys [00:34:00] go seek out Greg who they don't know.
Caitlyn: [00:34:03] Yeah, and you don't have to watch snapped to get that.
Mary: [00:34:06] Right.
In March, 1991, the trial starts. And by this point, the court of public opinion has already convicted Pam because there are a few sort of sexy quote unquote photos of her posing in lingerie that ended up being published by tabloids and I was giggling a little bit looking at these photos because yes, for the time they're very pinup, happy scandalous kind of photos, but now compared to what you see on Instagram, it's a fucking joke.
It's not that scandalous, but at the time this was like, Oh my God, sexy iron maiden lady. Like it just got really very weird coverage. And now looking back with this 2020 lens. This like sexy, hot for teacher [00:35:00] salaciousness of the way they were covering the news. That would never fucking happen now. But yeah, it was gross. Like it's really gross, but it became so sensationalized in this like weird tale of sex and rock and roll.
Caitlyn: [00:35:13] Is it because of those photos, people were like, Oh yeah, she's guilty.
Mary: [00:35:16] I think it was a combination of the photos. The fact that the police had been kind of focused on her from day one, the media coverage of her being this ice queen.
Once it came out that she went through the crime scene. I don't think that cops are very close lipped about their suspicion. I think that they just kind of let the media run with it. And I think all of those things kind of came together in this perfect storm of. She's very obviously guilty. And we are just going to like slut, shame her for these photos because it's fun. And we can cause it's the nineties.
Caitlyn: [00:35:51] Yeah. Like hearing all of that, like, Oh, I absolutely think that she's guilty. It's pretty obvious. But I also think it's kind of sad [00:36:00] that. Her lack of emotion is seen as like this assumption of guilt, maybe with that gender role of women needing to be more emotional and having more of a higher emotional response than that.
Because like you mentioned, you know, trauma and shock could have been playing into it. And then with the slut-shaming BS, just from like a general like standpoint, I don't know. I just think that's unfortunate, but I can see where people would get that.
Mary: [00:36:26] Right. The trial lasts 14 days and Billy Jr. Pete and Cecilia all take the stand to testify against Pam Cecilia testifies that Pam had told her that Billy was planning to kill Greg.
So obviously Pam knew what was going on. It's also discovered that if Pam and Greg were to get divorced, Pam would get nothing from their divorce proceedings.
Caitlyn: [00:36:51] Ugh, this is ...yeah.
Mary: [00:36:54] Not even her white leather couch.
Caitlyn: [00:36:56] Seriously
Mary: [00:36:58] Jr. Testifies that [00:37:00] Billy had told him in March that he was going to kill Greg and that Pam had asked him to do so.
Caitlyn: [00:37:06] Yeah. I mean divorce it, like you said, divorce doesn't get you anything.
Mary: [00:37:10] Right.
Caitlyn: [00:37:11] You got to get that life insurance money.
Mary: [00:37:13] Jr. Also says that he heard Pam on speaker phone with Greg having a very loud argument. And the argument ended with threats of divorce. So they had talked about it for certain, if it was coming up in arguments.
Caitlyn: [00:37:29] Yeah. And she probably saw that as like, Oh, well, like I want my cake and eat it too. Yes. She wants her Billy. And then she also wants that money.
Mary: [00:37:39] Yes. Allegedly Pam had told Billy that she was afraid of being left with nothing, losing sweet baby Halen and having nowhere to go. If she had to move out of the condo.
Pam also alleges that Greg was physically abusive, although there is no records or testimony about that that were introduced as [00:38:00] evidence. Eventually Pam wears Billy down and he agrees. And there were two times that Billy had said that he would kill Greg, but then was not able to follow through. This is all from Billy's testimony at trial.
Because Billy had said twice. Yeah, I'm going to do it. I'm going to kill Greg. That didn't happen. Pam was pissed and she tells Billy, I guess we're going to have to break up.
Caitlyn: [00:38:24] Um, problematic much.
Mary: [00:38:26] I roll my eyes with enough force to yeet myself into the sun.
Caitlyn: [00:38:30] Literally
Mary: [00:38:31] like what the fuck? The manipulation.
Caitlyn: [00:38:36] Yeah.
Mary: [00:38:38] It's the manipulation and grooming of a minor for me.
Caitlyn: [00:38:42] It's the not growing the fuck up for me.
Mary: [00:38:45] It's the using my sweet baby Shitzu as a pawn in my murder for hire plot for Bay. Just, ugh, you don't deserve that dog.
Caitlyn: [00:38:55] No.
Mary: [00:38:57] You never deserved that dog. You [00:39:00] bitch.
Once Pam tells Billy that they have to break up, Billy immediately goes into go mode and he recruits Pete and Jr to help him with his plan.
Which is actually Pam's plan. They're all going to dress in black. They're going to enter through a side door to the house that Pam will leave unlocked. They're going to stage a burglary and as payment, they get to keep whatever they want from the house and Pam is going to give them each $500.
Caitlyn: [00:39:31] And they couldn't have thought to take the ring and the wallet to like cover their tracks. If you're going to do it, at least like use your brain.
Mary: [00:39:37] It shows that these are high school boys.
Caitlyn: [00:39:40] True.
Mary: [00:39:40] As much as Pete was like, Oh, I want to be a Hitman. And they probably all were like a little edgy in that same way. They're high school boys. They don't know what they're doing. They're not criminal masterminds. And they didn't even want to do this in the first place. They're just trying to do what she made them think that they have to.
Caitlyn: [00:39:57] Yeah. So they probably went in there, [00:40:00] did it, and then they got scared and you know, were like, what the fuck did I just do? And ran out.
Mary: [00:40:07] Right.
Greg's life insurance policy is $140,000. So she's getting this hit on her husband at a fucking steal. Yeah. Can you imagine being so fucked that you put a $1,500 price tag on someone's life?
Caitlyn: [00:40:22] No.
Mary: [00:40:23] Not that there's a money amount that feels appropriate for a human life, but $1,500 is so disrespectfully low.
Caitlyn: [00:40:32] Yeah.
Mary: [00:40:33] And it shows how stupid these high school boys were that they were like $500 is a fortune.
Caitlyn: [00:40:38] I mean, especially in 1990s, I feel like if someone were like, Hey, $500 to kill someone, I'd be like, ah, um,
Mary: [00:40:45] I'm calling the cops?
Caitlyn: [00:40:47] I'm calling the cops to even vaguely consider that. I don't even know if I could consider that. I can't even, like, I feel bad killing a spider. I hate spiders.
Mary: [00:40:57] I would kill them, but Mike does not want to kill them [00:41:00] and takes them outside.
Caitlyn: [00:41:01] It's like a 30 minute process. You get the piece of paper, you have to get the clear container. You have to like your cell phone.
Mary: [00:41:06] Yeah, absolutely.
Caitlyn: [00:41:08] It's like, okay. You either take it outside or you step on it and risk it being an expecting mama or daddy. I don't, ew.
Mary: [00:41:17] Yeah?
Caitlyn: [00:41:17] Or expecting father and like all the eggs, just like
(laughing) a Daddy long legs.
Mary: [00:41:23] Yeah.
Ugh.
Cecilia testifies that Pam had actually taken all of her jewelry out of the house on the day of the murder, because she was afraid the boys would steal it.
Caitlyn: [00:41:34] Okay.
Mary: [00:41:35] Like, what? It just shows she doesn't even trust them and it's all about just this end goal of get Gregg gone. And then I don't know if she thought she was going to live happily ever after with Billy at this point. Like I don't get it.
Caitlyn: [00:41:48] Yeah. I mean, or if her end goal was just to ditch Greg
Mary: [00:41:52] Right.
Caitlyn: [00:41:52] And then high tail it out of there, leave Billy behind with his guilt and being in jail or whatever.
[00:42:00] Mary: [00:41:59] Pam also tells Billy, please don't kill Greg in front of Halen. I don't want my dog to be traumatized.
Caitlyn: [00:42:07] Ugh. (sighs) I just got to roll my eyes at that one. That's your concern really? That's your fucking concern right now?
Mary: [00:42:14] You're worried about the dog. And your 15 year old boyfriend is doing the murder. You're not worried he's going to be traumatized at all.
Caitlyn: [00:42:23] Seriously.
Mary: [00:42:25] What in the fuck? Don't you think Greg was traumatized? Jesus, I can't.
Caitlyn: [00:42:31] Yeah, it's a lack of empathy for me.
There it is.
Mary: [00:42:35] Billy and Pete ended up entering the house and they do stage the burglary before Greg gets home. Jr. And another friend, they had recruited our outside with a getaway car running.
Pete grabs a butcher knife from the kitchen because he was planning to kill Greg with the knife. Instead of shooting him specifically, he was planning to cut his throat. [00:43:00] They see Greg pull up, they take like a minute to try to calm themselves down because now it's on. And when Greg walks through the door, all three of them jumped him.
Greg tries to get back out the door, but Pete grabs him and they drag him back inside. And Greg is repeatedly just asking what's happening. What what's going on? Why are you doing this? And he gives his wallet to them. The boys then want his ring and he refuses. The boys testify that Greg said, I can't give you my ring. My wife will kill me.
Caitlyn: [00:43:38] Oh my God.
Mary: [00:43:41] I just can't
Caitlyn: [00:43:43] I'm like at a loss, for words like Pam is just beyond toxic.
Mary: [00:43:48] Can you imagine, like now these boys have to live with the fact that that was like one of the last things that he said.
Caitlyn: [00:43:56] Yeah.
Mary: [00:43:57] As an [00:44:00] adult, you gain clarity. Which is like, you know, we're talking about these boundaries that we know that need to happen and as a high schooler you didn't have that. So it's really fucked that they've had to live with us for the rest of their lives. Yes, they made the decision to do this. I'm not excusing that, but they were also manipulated by an older woman
Caitlyn: [00:44:25] who had significant power over them.
Mary: [00:44:28] Right.
Caitlyn: [00:44:28] Like, I feel so bad. Like, do I think these boys are. Kind of stupid for doing what they did. Absolutely. We can't ignore those factors of manipulation, lack of clarity, things like that. But it's just like so sad that somebody who was put into that building as a trusted adult took advantage of her power in that way. No matter how it got started, like as an adult, especially who is, who is supervising children.
Mary: [00:45:00] [00:45:00] That's just so fucked, like too, to tell someone that you are being abused in order to manipulate them to harm another person when it's not true is despicable.
Caitlyn: [00:45:12] Absolutely.
Mary: [00:45:16] So when Greg says to the boys, I can't give that to you. My wife will kill me. They are speechless. Like they had the same reaction that we have. Then Billy shoots Greg in the head, Billy one testifying about this is an absolute wreck on the stand he's crying. And he's being really honest. And you can tell that he really regrets his actions.
He says that he never wanted to kill Greg, but he had to do it in order to be with Pam. And he would do anything to be with Pam. He is so young and that decision-making process of what's reasonable and what love is all the [00:46:00] hormones that were swirling around and the situation it's just so unhealthy. And he, as much as he is responsible, what he did was disgusting. Ultimately he is also a victim of Pam in this situation.
Caitlyn: [00:46:15] Absolutely. And it's, ugh, That poor kid, like again, despicable action. But I mean, I'm thinking of it from like a teacher perspective. Like if I were one of his teachers seeing this from the sidelines, maybe it's like a hindsight situation, but it's like this poor kid, like he was just this young impressionable guy who was smitten by one of his teachers because he thought she was cute or whatever.
She crossed those boundaries. And ultimately, he was manipulated into doing something that was incomprehensible to any, anyone with reasonable, rational thinking skills, right. Which unfortunately 15, 17 are kind of hit or miss.
Your brain is so underdeveloped. [00:47:00] And your decision-making is not informed by experience. It's just informed by hormones most of the time. And like, that's not love specifically when it comes to, to sexual relationships. I don't believe that age is an indicator of like how wise someone is or how much life experience someone has, but in relationships when you're that young rightfully so you don't have the same experience as someone who's like gone through college and graduated college.
Mary: [00:47:28] Yeah. And didn't you mention he had like some childhood trauma too?
Yeah. His situation at home growing up was really volatile. So he was already more at risk to be victimized by someone in power around this time as well. This like sexy teacher trope is. Really getting a lot of, a lot of play in the media.
And this is a few years before Mary Kay Letourneau. I don't know if you've ever heard that name. She [00:48:00] was infamous. We'll say for having sex with a, I want to say he was 12 or 13. One of her students and she very much, it's sold it as like this love story. And there was all this coverage about like they really love each other.
They want to be together. The way that that was reported is disgusting. And they actually were married until somewhat recently. They had split up and I believe he was starting to work through. Actually what had happened. And now looking through things with the lens that we have now, obviously we know there's no situation where a 12 or 13 year old can seduce an adult. That's just not a thing.
Caitlyn: [00:48:50] No, I can confirm. I have 70 little, 12 and 13 year olds. Absolutely not.
Ugh, they're babies.
They are. [00:49:00] They're like, are you kidding me? They can't even decide what they want for lunch.
Mary: [00:49:05] So it's the same kind of coverage where Pam's side is. Billy flirted with me. I, he seduced me. I fell for him. He did this on his own for whatever reason, because he loves me whatever. And some of the media coverage is this like they're in love or they had this steamy thing instead of what it actually was. Which is that he was groomed and manipulated. Pam's defense is that she broke up with Billy and she testifies on the stand that she doesn't know why Billy would kill Greg.
Eventually she kind of gets cornered and she admits that Billy might have thought they would be together. If Greg was gone. I wonder where he got that thought from the right jury debates for 13 hours. And Pam is found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.
Caitlyn: [00:49:54] Good.
Mary: [00:49:55] She is sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of [00:50:00] parole.
In 2006, a report by journalism majors at Keene state university. What up Keene? I visited there once when I thought I was going to get kicked out of Curry and had to transfer this report, uncovers evidence that shows that there was a lot of doubt about Billy's role as the alleged gunman. The theory, which is directly based on the state's ballistic report shows that it was Pete Randall the guy who had always wanted to be a hitman that actually pulled the trigger, the gun had been fired by someone who was right-handed. Billy is left-handed. The boys' charges were all dropped to second degree murder by the prosecution, after their decision to testify against Pam. And they were housed together in prison in the weeks leading up to the trial, which is very not typical.
Caitlyn: [00:50:52] Yeah. That doesn't sound right.
Mary: [00:50:54] Usually they would split up co-conspirators to not allow them to compare notes and [00:51:00] come up with whatever their testimony was going to be. So really odd and kind of shows they very much had it out for Pam and wanted to really nail Pam to the wall. Billy pled guilty and was sentenced to 12 years in prison.
Caitlyn: [00:51:14] And Pete received the same sentence. Jr. the getaway driver, pled guilty as an accomplice and he was sentenced to life in prison. Jr. had also provided the gun. So his sentence was a little bit more serious.
Okay. That's that's where my question was coming in. Okay.
Mary: [00:51:31] He is eligible for parole after 30 years and has 12 years taken off eventually for good behavior.
Cecilia also could have been charged as a co-conspirator. It was revealed that she had broken into cars with Billy, at least twice looking for a gun that they could kill Greg with.
Caitlyn: [00:51:51] Okay.
However, because she cooperated with the police and were the wire and testified the district [00:52:00] attorney's office decided not to charge her at all at trial.
Mary: [00:52:03] Pam testified that when Cecilia was wearing a wire. All those great quotes that we had before Pam was just trying to convince the Celia to tell her more about what happened to her husband, because she wanted to get that information to the cops.
Caitlyn: [00:52:18] Oh, I'm, I'm so sure that was her intention.
Mary: [00:52:22] My note says, sure Jan.
Caitlyn: [00:52:23] Model citizen right here. Everyone take notes.
Mary: [00:52:26] Pam had said that her only sources of information around what had happened to Greg was this conversation with Cecelia. Pam says, "In my mind. I thought I would play a game with her. And I would say I knew more about the murder, but the point of the game was actually to get him for me."
Caitlyn: [00:52:43] Yeah. Not information about what happened to your husband, but information about is Celia trying to rat me out to the cops.
Mary: [00:52:50] Pam, who the fuck you think you are Batman, the greatest detective? Like what are you doing?
Caitlyn: [00:52:55] Seriously. She's a clown.
Cecilia ends up selling the rights to [00:53:00] her story to Hollywood and makes a hundred thousand dollars.
Mary: [00:53:04] Good for you girl, secure that bag! Pam continues to claim that she did not get a fair trial. And a lot of her friends and admirers sent her money. They do fundraisers for her and they send her gifts in prison and make sure that her prison account always has credit. In 1996, she is viciously beaten by two prisoners and had to have surgery. She actually had to have a metal plate inserted into her face. She has been on prescription pain medication ever since. And in 2003 more pictures of Pam sort of half nude were published in the national Inquirer. These photos came from a correctional officer who allegedly had been sexually assaulting Pam, and somehow these photos were leaked.
Caitlyn: [00:53:56] That's fucked.
Mary: [00:53:58] So fucked up. [00:54:00] Nobody deserves that. No matter what we've done,
Caitlyn: [00:54:03] Yeah, absolutely not.
Mary: [00:54:06] A lot of people that are terrible on this podcast. And I'm not going to pull punches about that. Pretty much everybody I've talked about has been just literal human trash. But nobody deserves to be sexually assaulted.
Caitlyn: [00:54:17] Yeah. And I mean, not even gets into the whole prison industrial complex, where correctional officers are free to do that shit with little to no repercussions. And like, I, I still think that like, regardless of all the shit that she did, that's just so fucked. That is a whole other level of abusing your power.
Mary: [00:54:38] Right after this happens, Pam is accused of participating in a prescription drug ring after medication that had morphine in it that was not prescribed to her, was found in herself as a result. She was put into solitary confinement for 77 days.
Caitlyn: [00:54:56] That's a very long time.
Mary: [00:54:58] It's so [00:55:00] inhumane and unreasonable that our system penalizes people with solitary confinement.
And there's a lot of research about how damaging solitary confinement is for those stretches of time. If this person is using morphine, that's not prescribed to them. There's a reason for that, whether that is a addiction, self-medication, whatever it is. And so the response to that is like, we're going to lock you up alone and not, let's give you some treatment and see if we can actually make a difference for you.
Caitlyn: [00:55:33] Yeah. And not to mention all the other psychological BS that happened. I read recently, I'm learning about the suffragette movement right now for one of my grad classes. And we learning about force-feeding. And I read recently that there's still that in some parts of the us, they're still using that practice for prisoners in solitary confinement who are refusing to eat the us criminal justice system is so broken that it's [00:56:00] kind of a joke that people think that justice can be achieved through these means.
Mary: [00:56:04] Yeah. It's not built for reform or to actually help people to not re-engage in criminal activity or to have personal growth. It really is built just to punish and continue to oppress people, specifically black and Brown people at very high levels.
Caitlyn: [00:56:23] While making a buck
Mary: [00:56:24] Pam ended up volunteering with hundreds of prison, support groups and different organizations over her time. So far in prison. She has been in maximum security prisons for about 30 years now. And she maintains her innocence into 2021 where all the boys who were involved have become men and they are now good.
Caitlyn: [00:56:46] I'm kind of glad that they're free.
Mary: [00:56:48] You know, I watched some footage of their statements at their parole hearings and it's really obvious that what happened deeply affected them, that their role has [00:57:00] really, they understand the depth and the gravity of what they did. And I imagine that they hopefully will get a lot of therapy to work through the fact that. They were victims, but they went on to murder someone as a result.
Caitlyn: [00:57:16] Yeah. I hope they get that help too. And I hope that they used that and it sounds like they did that. They use that time in prison to really reflect and think of, Oh shit. What did I do? How is this affecting me? Kind of like that restorative justice piece, but they had to probably take on that role themselves in mediating that.
Mary: [00:57:37] Pam does not hold 100%. Of the responsibility in Greg's murder.
Caitlyn: [00:57:43] Absolutely.
Mary: [00:57:44] But she definitely holds, I would say 98%. Of it in her planning and premeditation. And now this still this insistence that she is innocent, there's so many 2020 interviews and stuff that's come out, even [00:58:00] just in the last two years, that really shows either one, she is completely and utterly delusional and really believes that she was, had no role in manipulating the situation or did nothing to impact the outcome of the situation. Or two, she is still, for some reason thinking that she's gonna, there's gonna be someone that she can convince that's going to get her out.
Caitlyn: [00:58:26] Yeah. I think my biggest beef with Pam is it's the lack of, self-reflection the lack of ownership. I hope that at some point she can turn herself around, think about, you know, her role in everything, and really reflect on that and make some type of an effort to become a better person because. I don't know, I try to be as sympathetic and empathetic and hope for the best in people, especially knowing that she's in a place where she's being brutally treated,
Mary: [00:58:56] FInd a way to actually be accountable for her life and her choices?
[00:59:00] Caitlyn: [00:59:00] Yes. Instead of pinning it on children.
Mary: [00:59:03] Everyone else, but her, yeah. Pam smart. More like not so smart. Am I right?
Caitlyn: [00:59:07] Yeah.
Mary: [00:59:09] So that is the murder of Greg smart. I'm trying to do something a little bit more cheerful on the way out. Yeah. Can you tell me something that's made you happy in the last week?
Caitlyn: [00:59:19] For education, we have these observation cycles that we do, and for my midyear eval, we get ranked on a scale of one to five, five being like advanced one being for lack of a better way to say it. Why are you here? We need, we have a lot of learning to do. You want to aim for three is in the proficient lens. And I got two fours.
Yay. Congratulations!
That's really good for a first-year teacher. So I'm just, I'm really happy about that. I feel very accomplished and you know me, I'm very competitive with myself.
Mary: [00:59:53] Yeah. I get that. For me, something that's made me happy in the last week [01:00:00] is just kind of getting back into the groove. I lost my best friend about a month ago. I mentioned on an earlier episode and the grief comes and goes, and I know from doing grief support for a really long time, that I've just gotta be patient with it and let it come and go. And I spent a lot of time this week talking about her and kind of reliving memories and catching up with some people. And that has been really healthy and a little bit restorative. So while I'm still really sad and I have a lot of deeply sad moments when I think about everything. It's been cool that now I'm far enough out that I'm able to remember the good things and have a laugh, but also remember the frustrating things. And, you know, she was a human being. She was my best friend. She wasn't a saint and I think it's important to do that with the people that you love after they're gone is remember them as they were and not just as you wish that they were.
Caitlyn: [01:00:57] Exactly. I'm really happy that you've been able [01:01:00] to move through that process because it's not, it's not an easy one.
Mary: [01:01:04] Yeah. And I know it's going to be a very, very long time going. I'm certainly going to have more bad days ahead with it, but it's. Been good to just kind of have the space and time to really be able to work through that. And I'm happy that I have this podcast and that people are listening from all over the world. Thank you so much for tuning in it. I really hope that it is bringing some joy to your day as it is to mine. To put this out, you have anything you want to plug, or you have a favorite song you're listening to right now?
Caitlyn: [01:01:41] Well, a girl I went to college with just dropped a single on Spotify. It's called Boco by rage. B O C O and it's by Rachel R a C H E. And my favorite line from it was take me back to Boulder where I can see that view. All I ever needed were the [01:02:00] flat irons and you,
Aw, that's so cute.
Such a mood.
Maybe for this week. I'll post a picture of the flat irons, so people know what we're talking about.
Oh my gosh. They're so beautiful. I miss living in Boulder so much. There's nothing to see where I'm at. It's just flat.
I don't miss living in Boulder, one iota whatsoever, but I can also still see the flat irons for where I live. So maybe that's making a dent there as well. The song that I'm listening to a ton this week is in the next life by Kim Petrus. Check it out and enjoy.
Thank you for having me.
Mary: [01:02:35] Of course. Thanks for coming on. This was so much fun. Thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you next week.
Hi friends. If you like the podcast, I would love if you would go ahead and leave me a five-star rating and a review on Apple podcasts. It's the only place that I can actually get ratings and get reviews and get ranked. Please check us out on [01:03:00] Instagram at monsters. Walk with us all one word and I'd love.
If you could send us an email and tell me where you're listening from, maybe suggest a case. The email address is hidden period monsters period.walk@gmail.com.