this is a C. N. A.
Podcast.
We'll go for some quick fire questions in a few words. Can you give us your thoughts on the following first would be your dream home, my
dream home, just a simple bungalow, which actually I already
stayed buying or renting,
buying for sure
BTO or resale flat
resale flat
private property or HD be
private property,
bank loan or hDB loan.
Mm hmm. Maybe now. HtV
low. Mhm. All of us reach a stage in our lives when we want to buy a home but this is not just any purchase, it's the biggest of the big ticket items will buy in our lives. A typical property mortgage in Singapore can set us back by half a million dollars.
So how does this impact a young couple's financial journey and his property a sure bet for the long run to answer these questions is a man known to many, he is the ceo of Singapore real estate agency prop Nick's Ismael Gaffer has witnessed the twists and turns of the Singapore property market and together with it, he has made his own fortune. So thanks so much for joining us today is mild now no one can deny that home prices in Singapore
are not cheap. So could you explain to us why it is so and do property prices only go up from here.
Generally speaking, property prices tend to go up, but it would be a myth to say it will only go up. But if you take it from a very long time horizon property prices have to keep going up. The logic is very simple, say 20 years ago or 10 years ago or for that matter 50 years ago, the salary of an architect and engineer is not the same. So
there's this element known as inflation. So does the cost of materials goes up and in the land scarce Singapore, everything become tight and therefore in general to say over a longer period of time, property prices will go up is the right way to look at it. However, within that longer time horizon there will be cycles due to uncertainties. Either it could be SARS or it could be some kind of financial crisis or for that matter even the very recent covid.
But I must say even during the covid period our real estate market was relatively resilient.
Some younger people start with a less expensive home first and maybe pick a non mature estate for example with a few rooms and then upgrade as needs change. Maybe when you have a child until you start upgrading your property. But buying and selling your home is not very straightforward. So some younger people start buying a four or five room flat, maybe consider a convenient location. So for those who are trying to get in this property market,
get a home that they're going to live in. What factors do you think they should consider?
I think it's very important when we are young sometimes because I was young once too we
can to be
short term in our considerations. Why do I say that for example if a young couple who wants to buy a B. T. O. Flat built to order flat and you know by today's norm it could take anything between 4 to 5 years for the constructions to complete before you can get the keys and thereafter you have another five years minimum occupation period and only then after that you're able to sell. Therefore there is almost a 9 to 10 years time like
before you can either downgrade upgrade or move forward. And can you imagine you may be young now but in 10 years time a lot of things can change. Maybe two Children you may have made and maybe in 567 years down the road, maybe one of your parents may be wanting to occupy together with you? I'm not so sure. So if you did not put any of such consideration and you just say okay I just wanted the smallest place in the very right location.
Doesn't matter even if it costs me because I wanted to be in so central and therefore you take a three bedroom And then you must be mindful the next 10 years you are going to be there. So that's what I would say here is it's okay to have a smaller house but each an individual must have their own planning in terms of the time horizon, what is the likely family needs a personal needs before your deciding whether you want a bigger flat or a small flat.
So a lot of things to consider not just the price it seems, but what about those who are not married because their options are even more limited. What advice would you give?
Oh get married.
Yeah.
So I think in Singapore's system here is this procreation of family something that is very much favored with a lot more incentives. But we do respect singles. I think with all due rights for their own lifestyle is perfectly okay. But until they attain the age of 35 they don't have much options because once you're in a single above 35 you may have got some options in terms of buying resale flats or so I generally think for the younger and as well as a single, the ideal option will be still too
Take advantage of your parents home. So you don't need to pay anything live as long as you're happy. But the disadvantage is that sometimes the generation gap you want wants privacy and you want to be bold, you want to come back home at two am and therefore yeah, then you don't have an alternative. The other options are obviously
something becoming more popular. Now here is this co living space where the younger generations can live together with a communal kind of thing where you don't have a completely huge house but there are common toilets, common kitchen and you pay an affection of another usual rental of a house and that would be something nice if they are comfortable. It all depends on the individual are the one who is
very comfortable with strangers to co leave. Obviously the other thing here will be for you to just rent a room and that gives you all your 100% privacy or a smaller apartment like in a one bedroom. But all this is going to cost money. So one has to be really thoughtful about the fact that as long as you are renting there's an outflow of your savings or your cash and
you're basically making the landlord reacher and not yourself. The ideal scenario will be for one to get your own house, which means your monthly mortgage installment that you're paying is something equivalent to your rent is paying towards your own property Over time the property is fully paid up with their capital appreciation. This would be the best option for you to accumulate in terms of your retirement
Because rent definitely not cheap, especially nowadays. And another factor that we need to keep in mind now is rising interest rates because mortgage rates have roughly doubled in the first six months of this year and that could mean a lot more in interest payments. Over time. For example, the median two year fixed rate mortgage rose from 1.15% in December last year to 2.25% in May. So that's a big jump only in six months. How should home owners tackle this?
Just be happy about it. Not to worry because you can't tackle something, it is market norms. But to start with singaporeans we all need to be very happy about it. The fact that the 1.2 below 1.5 are not a norm. There MS enormous mainly because of the federal interest rates has been really near zero due to crisis Covid. And they wanted to just encourage more of the spending and so on.
But that also gives rise to other challenges in America where inflation went up to 7 to 8% and that's why they have decided to increase the interest rate and therefore in my personal view, interest rates or mortgage anything up to 3 to 3.5% is a norm. So when we take a miss normal
percentages and then we feel, wow this is 2.5. So I'm honestly not worried about that at all for the fact that you see any one of us who wants to take a loan based on the MES guideline, you will be assessed as if the mortgage amount given to you at the current interest rate of 3.5% even though the bank only charges 1.5 or two. Therefore this is kind of safety measures That you will not be given a loan at a
very low rate but it is assessed at 3.5. So there's an a buffer been in built for prudence and why 3.5? I think that is more like a normal rates. Therefore the interest rate having gone from 1.25 to 2.25 and it's not going to stop here. In my view, It may hit about three and that normalized and I will not pay too much attention to this. Honestly, We're not talking about five, Then there would be a concern.
So with such rates, this should not deter any young couple to look into it because sometimes we study a lot of things and then we look at the headlines, it has gone double and by not entering the market, the prices that we will eventually end up paying will be huge.
Yeah. And it's not going to stop here. As you mentioned. So you mentioned dismal that anything under 3% is considered okay. We shouldn't be too worried about that. But in the past decade and some as you mentioned, rates have been so low that so many people have turned to bank loans over HDB loans because of the difference in in the rates now
that mortgage rates from the banks are creeping up. Do you think it's time to consider HDB loans, especially for those who are just about to buy their first property.
I definitely think yes, because HDB loans are more sheltered because I think over the last umpteen, not 10, not 20, not 30. Have not put my finger to really go back. It has always been fixed at 2.6%. The formula works is 0.1 above the ordinary account payment of 2.5. So what HDB loan interest rate gives a person here is the stability while a bank loan will be quite cyclical demand and supply. You would be able to secure the entry at below 2%. When the rates start to go up, you may end
up paying more than 3%. Therefore, I think it's perfectly okay right now where the interest rates are expected to go back to the norms. HDB loan will be more attractive for young couples.
Do you have a preference for floating or fixed rates when it comes to bank loans? Because I'm sure a lot of mortgage holders in the next few months will look at their payments and go, well that's a lot more.
I think it's very individual. It all depends on the risk appetite and how you read the market. I've always been more favored towards floating because I think I understand the market because I'm always looking at the market but myself too. I've also taken fixed rates in the past when I know the market is changing towards the tide where the interest rates are expected to go up then by fixing your interest rate. You also basically safeguard your commitments.
So what would one do here? Is it fixed or floating? Especially right now. The difference between a floating and fix could be almost close to 0.75 because most of the banks are already pricing in the future cost. So that being the case, I think to an extent floating is attractive, but if you are going to be someone who just want a peace of mind for next three years then you can opt for fixed as well.
So amid this rising interest rates, if we take a look at a broader picture here while some are trying to gather enough for their first home, there's a growing number of public housing millionaires, how should we balance the need for a place to live in and the investment opportunity from a home purchase.
One of the real good things about being Singaporean. And I must say it is a commitment of the government that every Singaporean will get the first home at a very affordable price. And I must say that that's a commitment, not just by words, but it has been illustrated over the years when the government keep increasing the grant, that one can qualify A couple, even buying a resale flat if the household income is below $1,500, which is quite unusual unless they
are really not working and maybe cleaners. I'm really not sure sure at the very lower income bracket, The government is prepared to give $160,000 of grant
to assist them to buy the first property. And that's why what I think is is buying a first property in Singapore is never a major concern Because you know, first and foremost the bto subsidized and you also do qualify for some kind of underground depending on your income bracket, not everybody gets 160 as your household income goes on the upper scale, then the grant reduces. So then what is the major concern?
The major concern here is not about at the entry level is the aspiration of some of us, we want bigger home, we want lifestyle, we want central location
closer to parents who are mature estates. That's
closer to parents, you still got additional ground because you're staying closer towards the parents. I mean obviously if my parents are staying in downtown or for that matter in Queenstown, I would prefer to buy a property because not only I can visit them, but even when I have a child there's someone to look after. But then the question here will be, what about
affordability? For example, a four bedroom in the central location, A B. T. O. Can be anything between 600 over $1000 in a central location. I'm talking about Queenstown blanca and so on versus a four room at let's say yee shun or the outlying area is 400 plus for 50 plus minus on average. So one has to pay a premium to buy a very central location.
But then if they cannot afford that premium to buy a forum, some of them compromise to buy a smaller flat, maybe a tree room in Queenstown, which will cost 400 over, but you could have Bought a four room elsewhere. So this is a compromise. But as I said at the start, when we talked about it, young couples have to really think about what is it, they truly one and not only for now, but for the next 10 years. Is it space more important or is it locality more important?
Or is it lifestyle like an executive condominium?
But what do you think about people who are eyeing properties in certain locations with the potential investment return in
mind. I totally can understand that and that's why, you know, for all the video flats in the very central locations, the subscription rates are much higher because it is human, it's nothing wrong about people desiring to have a place there because they achieve two things. One, the convenience of the location And in time to come. Such properties tend to sell,
as you said, $1 million dollar ticket. Why don't I stay enjoy the convenience and yet enjoy the better capital appreciation in comparison to the outlying areas. So I think it's a good idea that a lot of people tend to go for this, but they must also understand when the subscription rates are so high, your chances of you getting one is very slim. The government realized this after so long that there seems
to be like a lottery effect. People who bought pinnacle some time back and today almost most units that goes well above a million dollars and people do make an a sizable appreciation. That's why now the government has come up with more restrictions in the M. O. P. Is beyond five years to extend to 10 years and restrictions and things like that so that people who are buying don't come from investment angle hugely, but more of a livable space at
Least for the first property at least. Do you think it's fair though that public housing is going for at least $1 million dollars in some places?
I think it's fair. I think in life we can't say it's fair or not fair for many instances, but when you look at for example, a spin nickel or Queenstown or downtown or rocco or boogies, If you want to live there and have the convenience of everything that comes with it and if you want to buy a private property per square foot can cost you $3,000 just a square foot of a space while even $1 million dollar property, But square foot is not even $1,000.
So it's less than one third of a surprise. But on the other hand if he said no, no, we have to be fair because it's public housing every place also then whether you are staying at inn or boogies, it must be the same price. But it doesn't work that way because the demand and supply in the resale, people will be willing to pay a higher price for central locations.
We're going for a short break, we'll be right back. Hi, I'm Adrian Tan and I'm Christina robert. We are the host of a new podcast called working, We're here to get into the essential things that no one tells you about working and company culture from office politics to dealing with burnout. If you've ever wanted to eavesdrop on an interesting conversation by the water cooler. This podcast is for you look out for our episodes wherever you get your podcast,
you have a very inspiring story. You lived in a rental flat, you're running Singapore's largest real estate agency and you've also invested in property yourself and you've grown your real estate portfolio. Do you think your property investment roadmap is still feasible today?
I wish it is feasible but unfortunately you will have to overcome hurdles that are much more harder than during my time because the government have putting a lot more cooling measures loopholes that people do take advantage in the past. Maybe it is not even seen as a loopholes the government has made it, that property is something that a lot more people should benefit and that's why people who are buying a second property of third property, even if you're a singaporean,
You're subjected to additional stamp duties. And then you have got. Now total debt servicing ratio. If you want to buy a second property, the amount of loan that you get, for example the first property the bank is prepared to give you 75% loan. But if it is the second property,
the bank can only give you a 60% loan. But during my era our parents era for those young people who are listening, we had to benefit because whether I buy the first or the second or the third property, I don't need to pay additional stamp duties. Neither the loans discriminate or there's a differentiation in terms of a lower quantum but put all those things aside, we have to only look at squarely what is available right now.
Very briefly if I talk about my journey, I started my first property was a hdB three room resale flat, stayed there for a couple of years, accumulated some money, sold a flat and bought a private apartment and stayed in that apartment for some time to enjoyed it with the lifestyle and facilities with a swimming pool and so on and we sold that and we had some little tidy profit and capital appreciation and the fact that myself and my wife, we worked and our income have also gone
up and we decided to upgrade to a small landed inter terrorists property. So I'm just trying to tell each and everyone dreaming is one thing is good to have the castle that we want. But we have to take the first step and the first step has to be within our means. Yeah, that's perfectly okay, you see. But one of the things that I normally used to share to the first time buyers or the younger couples will be, it is not a good idea to save money for your dream home which may not materialize.
Why do I say that you said that? No, no, no, I do not want an H. T. B. I want to straightaway go into a private property. That's the lifestyle I won and therefore I will save and accumulate enough money to pay the down payment While you are saving the property prices keep going up. Let's say in the next 5 to 8 years what you could have bought right now, you plan at a million dollars in 8, 10 years down the road, it
could be 1.4 million. So what you have saved 2, 300,000 inflation would have creeped up and entry into the macro be tough. So my suggestion here is as long as you are ready enter the market regardless of the size of the uni and that become your foothold and that property keep pace with inflation doesn't matter if you bought it for 400 in eight years down the road, in the 400,000 property goes up to 55 50 you'd have attained a capital appreciation of 100 over 1000 plus
your savings. Then you use all the accumulated CPF and your capital appreciation to upgrade to the next property. Because over the next 56 years your income should have probably gone up as well.
Some people think that investing in a property is out of their reach and their focus is simply just getting your first home and staying there. Do you think that property should always be part of someone's investment mix?
I would always encourage everyone to look at your property from an investment angle, even though it's a public housing, I know it's a very clear direction from the authorities. Public housing is not meant to be an investment and I agree to that as well.
But why do I say that for all young couple when you buy a property, please do have some element of investment in your mind simply because even if you're buying in an outlying area, If the lease of the property is going to be only 70 years or 65 years You must understand if you buy a property that has got balance 65 year lease and you're going to stay there for 15, 20 years and the balance least only
goes to 40 over years. That property capital appreciation is so much muted or it may go into the negative slide and the fact that you live in that place for the last 15, 20 years, paying your hard earned CPF money, why don't you buy a property that has got while you stay there for the next 10, 15 years. And yet the property can have some form of capital appreciation
which is from an investment angle. So that's why I always encourage young couple to say that don't be too emotional about properties, look at the property for what it is right now and whether it caters to your needs, the space, the location and at the same time pause a moment to think about say come 10 to 15 years and why do I say 10 to 15 years by and
large for most singaporeans. I think 10 to 15 years your family composition may change your income may change your job, place may change and therefore it may be good for you to reorganize your property portfolio or even shift And that's why you must always take into consideration whatever I buy now when I want to exceed in 10 years, what would be the value of my property for all the money that I'm committing in the next 10 years. So that's a very worthwhile in depth thinking to do
so it means we should mentally be prepared to move houses throughout our life.
Yeah, I think I've spoken to many young couple, it goes with the same thing when we get married, we say for life or grave we are together but you and I know how many marriages last. That's the truth of the matter and same thing. Most people when they buy a property, they say this is our home for our life. But it will not be the case. But it's not as bad as marriage not working. But I think in a home when you ever change
is a positive thing in my view. Either you write size it or you up size it or downsize it. It really doesn't matter based on your needs at that time, based on what you've invested. Right now, if you take a 600,000 mortgage, it will always be a very daunting thought for a young couple to take a $600,000 loan. I mean you're so young you say that what should I even take a $600,000 loan. It all depends on the income Who qualifies to take a $600,000 loan for public housing.
There is AM. S. R. of 30% of your income, A 600,000 loan over a period of 30 years at average let's say 2% interest rate. Currently The monthly installment is going to be about 2200, which means the household income between the couple has to be about 7005. If someone earns $7,500, They do qualify to get a $600,000 loan comfortably to buy a property and monthly they have to fork out Only $500 cash because the rest come from their CPF ordinary account.
If the couple says no, I don't want this commitment of a $500 monthly. Then The household income of the couple has to be $10,000 If they earn 5000 each and they got $10,000 and they take a $600,000 loan over 30 years. The full amount can be paid through your ordinary account CPF and you don't come out cash a dollar. Therefore don't be so worried about taking loan. As long as you know, you have a stable career in whatever trade you are. You know, there's a demand and you can be employed.
It's okay to take a loan and buy the right property.
Yes, don't be afraid of loan but not too much to
write. I always never worried about
loan.
What
happens if you have people in properties that they are not appreciating for different reasons or they're not appreciating as much as they would like it to be or needed to be.
Very good question. Sarah, I really like that. And that's why I always advocate all listeners not to take your current property as a property. That's forever Because a property when we purchased five or 10 years ago, it could have been an asset, but over time it could have muted capital appreciation or it may even end up as a liability. So what should one do? I think one should take an active approach to evaluate your existing property portfolio to understand how it has performed
over the last 5, 10 years. What is the expectations in the next 10 years? Has there been a break in terms of capital appreciation? And if that is the case this is the right time to offload and get something else that's still in its life cycle has got further growth. So this is something is very actively. Some savvy investors does
what makes a home an asset and a liability. When should alarm bells start ringing in our
head? It is an ally ability in my view, if you buy something and for all what you have paid and for whatever reason when you decide to downsize or when you want to cash out the property is not at that moment worth what you have paid for. That means the property has not worked as hard as it should. In my view is in fact a liability because if you continue to stay there for another 10 years instead of getting let's say 400,000, another 10 years stated is
only going to give you 300,000. Yeah, so it may not be seen directly as a liability. Probably you may have paid up the full mortgage loan. But the mere fact that at any time when you want to visit it is not going to give you a better return from what it is today. The longer you stay there, then I think it is a liability obviously from the other aspect, it could be a liability is for those people who own more than one properties and you're dependent on the rental yield from your tenant to pay the
monthly installment. But somehow with the interest rates going up and your monthly mortgage installment, the rent don't seem to be going up and what do you collect from the tenant is not even sufficient
to pay your monthly installment in overtime. The gap widens then I think it is a liability to in all fairness a lot of young couple can read from internet and many of those digital platforms, but it would be good if you have someone who has been in the market for a good 5 to 10 years, who understand who have got data and statistics to show you for example, we would be able to track if you say that I'm staying in condo A versus condo B and Condo C. And we can just plot
The last 10 years, capital appreciation or price movement or the demand. So what would be able to visually see is the property has got potential or not. So, but you need some experts to come in to help you and guide you.
A lot of people right now look to the older generation and look at the gains that they've got from property as Singapore's property market boomed during the early years for example. But now those gains might be less likely because Singapore now is a mature economy and we won't see that big of a jump in the economy and in the property prices. So what does that mean then for the younger generation,
you're absolutely right, that's life. But having said that property still makes sense if someone invests a second property million dollars And you come out even of 40% down which is 400,000 and you take a loan of 600,000 over a 20 year period And the next 20 years You have been renting it out and the 10ant pays the monthly mortgage. The man at the end of 20 years, the Tenant has paid the entire 600,000. So the property you bought 20 years ago was a million.
Your equity was 400,000, you took a loan of 600 over 20 years and the tenant pays off after 20 years and after 20 years Assuming the property price, what do you reckon it be assuming it is even 1.6 million or two million 5% inflation. And if it's not even compounded. So if it is two million, Your 400,000 equity has gone 500% or even if it has just gone to 1.6 million, it has gone your 400 because when you sell at the end of 20 years, the $1.5 million dollar check is all to you.
So it still makes sense. It still makes sense even compared to our earlier parents time and now because property generally keep pace with inflation but as long as you enter the right property, what I can agree with you here is people who bought a landed property in the 1960s, $30,000. I
can't imagine that now.
Um 4500 in the eastern part of Singapore today. The same condition of the house, the same condition
no enough has
been done. That piece of land today is no less than six million. A 30,000 has gone to six million. No less. It's likely to be better to be higher. So um 10fold. Are we talking about Many, many 400 awful such things are not likely to happen as you rightly qualified by saying that Singapore was a growing economy. If you want to wish to have such kind of growth potential then go and buy Myanmar But to be there and I would advise no better
not because the risk is too high. Same thing when those people who bought it in the 50s and 60s in Singapore, they also took a risk. We are today stable that was all the formative stages but all said, I still think property does make sense.
Are there any other myths that you think people have that you'd like to debunk or maybe areas that they are not completely informed about.
Ah I mean one of the things that we already talked about, you want to save enough to buy a dream home that will never materialize in my view. I always think that it's good to have a foothold in the market to keep pace with inflation. May be another example if I may give here is some of them always like to buy the biggest home because they like space, they're like lifestyle. But I would say if you have a very big house, one house
and you're so busy working so hard. The only person who enjoyed the houses your mate and the dog.
That's a good point.
Yeah. So by necessarily buy two houses by one that you don't need to be stressed and buy another one like the earlier example I give that somebody pays the monthly installment and at retirement you can travel the world. Yeah. So one will have to understand what are your needs. As I said when we are young we don't tend to think long term but people who think of long term they do benefit hugely.
Yeah. So we can talk about buying your first home without touching on this is male. What do you think should come first? Video application or a marriage proposal. Mhm.
I think um wow. I said that if you want to talk about a video application, how is your marriage don't even take place. But I think it's the right thing to do if you're really definitely quite agreed upon that you are the life partner going to be for each other. My strong suggestion is go ahead and apply the BTU because it is going to take a good four or five years. But I really want to encourage people to look at the other option and believe me I think this is a superior option for most people
but not everyone to look at resale flat. Why do I say that? I think about it when you buy a resale flat you get the case within three months and you do qualify for higher grant compared to Bto Bto. The ground is not so much. The government deliberately give higher amount of ground because of the price difference. What is your first advantage Your marriage and your privacy and to leave your home
start immediately not five years later. # two your minimum occupation period starts the day you collect the keys. I mean five years down the road you can reorganize your portfolio. Either sell the resale flat and by an executive condominium or something else. As opposed to a Bto flat. You're stuck for 10 years, five years of construction plus another five years of M. O. P. So you can't manure. Not forgetting the fact if you're going to be 28 30 10 years is 40.
So that five years lead time can mean a lot of things. So as I said I'm not suggesting everybody should look at resale flat. If you can afford if you think your aspiration is now, just for the next five years or six years to have a decent flat without waiting too long for your marriage, go for a resale. But on the other hand, you said, hey, resale is going to be a bit more hefty because the resale prices are definitely higher than B. T. O. And video
much cheaper and it's brand new. Fine. Then you must be mindful of the fact that if you apply for the video, apply early, if you intend to get married in 23 years better apply now so that at least halfway through after you got married, you don't need to wait too long,
smell one question before we let you go. So we all know you've made quite a hefty sum in the property market. Can you give our listeners your view of money and what you learned when you had little? And when you had a lot
lot of people may not really maybe agree with me to me. Money has only got that much value, honest truth. Probably a lot of people will say when you have a lot of people tend to talk like that, maybe I'm not so sure you have all the money. But if you don't have the heart to give it to your own loved ones, including your parents, including whoever who is in need because you start to halt money because money is so important to you somehow money won't come to you much because you have
an affiliation with the money. That money is all paramount to you. I'm not saying that just be free and just be spent with no when you work hard and you give money where it is due to make a difference in the life of other people as well. But it all starts with your own family first.
I think somehow money has got more meaning because it is not about you have multiple millions and you still feel that it is not enough versus you have enough and you feel so happy that you're rich, the state of happiness is in the mind, but all said is it's equally important. You must have money, work hard, earn the money, but pure money doesn't give you happiness using the money with the right cost, bring greater joy and that's how I feel.
Yeah, that's a great advice. Think long term when it comes to your property, don't wait until you've saved all the money you need for your dream home. And remember that over a long period of time, home prices do go up though, there are cycles in between. Thanks so much for joining us
appreciate it. Thank you.
Okay, we hope you enjoyed this episode of money talks the team behind this podcast is hope a name, Danieli, Christina robert and you've got a refreshed slate of audio material you can listen to on your commute or your workout, go to the C. N. A. Website or app. Look for the listen button and subscribe to the podcast. See like if you have thoughts, ideas or even stories you'd like to share, please write to us. The details are in our episode notes. Until next time. This is Sarah apology. Mhm.