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Hello and welcome to The Money Stuff Podcast, your weekly podcast where we talk about stuff if you want it to money. I'm Matt Levian and I write the Money Stuff column for Bloomberg.
And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and an anchor for Bloomberg Television.
What's going on, Katie?
We're going to talk about trader school and hedge funds. Then we're going to talk about fake m and A, and then we're going to talk about kind.
Of M and A real weird NA.
Yeah, let's get to it. Let's get into it. So Traders School, we're talking about zero point seventy two Citadel. The list goes on other giant hedge funds basically creating an in house trading school to turn their nines into perfect tens.
Yes, this is a Bloomberg News Big Take article today yesterday. It does matter.
Time is a construct. As we keep going over, this is.
A big take article at Bloomberg about how these hedge funds are building their own in house trading schools. Here we are talking about it.
Yeah, reading this, I kind of feel like, shouldn't you have an in house training program anyway.
So a couple of points of that one is that no, historically all of the like buy side like used to hire from the seull side, right, Like it used to be that if you're a hedge fund, the way you
acquired new talent was from the banks. And one thing that's happening here is like the banks are a less of a source of talent for these places, in part because like banks get rid of prop trading and so like the ability to source good risk takers from banks has gone down, but also a part because these places have gotten huge, and it's just like you're not looking to like identify one good trader from somewhere, you're looking
to like mass produce them. And so having a training program is kind of a new need for these big firms. Right used to be a hedge funds, like one manager and when that manager got rich enough, they just the firm went away. So like, having this very institutional structure is kind of a new thing, and so you need a training program. The other thing about it, though, it's not just training you know, incoming people to be good analysts.
It's taking the people who are analysts and have been there for a while and trying to find out if they will be good portfolio managers and promoting them to being portfolio managers as carefully and scientifically as you can. So instead of being like, yeah, you've been here a while, here manage a book, it's like taking the analysts and seeing if they'd be good at managing a book and teaching them how to manage a book.
So two points. So we're talking about it as trader school, and the article talks about it as trader school. It's more fun to me is this sort of just be in vision where it's actually just like a factory and you're just putting this person into the machine. It does some combination of lights and sounds and things to the person that they spit out as this stock picker.
Well, that is sort of how these things are supposed to work, right. The idea of these multi strategies is they're very like scientifically managed and they really like carefully monitor your trading and they make sure you're neutral to all the factors, and if your portfolio goes down by a little bit, they like pull some capital, and if it goes down by a little bit more, they fire you.
It's you know it is like an alpha factory, right, it is like trying to somewhat dehumanize the management of traders. So yeah, it is a machine that flashes some lights that you But wait, I also want to take it seriously as a school because I would like to go to Trader School.
I want to audit a class at Trader School. I don't think I would do very well, so I don't want to receive a grade at the end, but I would like to see what happens.
Apparently they greate them out of ten, right, yeah, right, Like usually the analysts come in as ninees and they're supposed to leave as ten. Portfolio managers for that come in coming at like a two.
I was gonna say, I'd be, you know, a solid one, maybe a two on a good day and maybe come out. Yeah.
Two points on that one is that I hope that by saying that you want to audit a class Trader School, you have manifested that and that we will be invited to audit a class at point seventy two or someone or said it, or anyone's Trader School, any multi strategy hedge fund that wants to have us audit a class at Trader School, and maybe yeah, do some field recording.
We doesn't even have to be top tier. We go we don't need to go to like the Ivy League of Trader School. I'd be willing to go, you know, in state, but yeah, I would love to do that. That would be our first like field podcast recording.
I feel like we'd learn a lot at Trader School, and so at our listeners, and so would possibly the Hedge one that hosts us.
I mean, point seventy two sounds like it is the place to go because the article mentions that more than half of Steve Cohen's stock pickers have come through its program rather than big expensive outside hires that they've had to make.
So it does seem a lot cheaper to run a trader school than to pay someone a fifty million dollar guarantee to come be a portfolio manager.
Yeah, I mean, maybe it's less good for you, that star stockpicker, because right.
It's like you're like on the Rickie contract, right, Like you get paid like an employee rather than in a bidding war for your talent.
Yeah.
The other thing about Trader School is my dream has always been to do my job as like I write my newsletter for like and do my podcast right, thank you, six months of the year. And then I go, like, intern in a financial job somewhere for six months of the year, Like, wouldn't that be fun?
I feel like this company would let you do whatever you want, I.
Know, but like who would hire me for that?
Who?
Like hopefully some of our listeners, But who would be like, oh, yeah, come, like do a bad job at our job for six months and then.
Go write about it right heavy handed section we've ever.
Hed, I know, right, like please have us come into your things.
Yeah.
I didn't even mean it that way. It's so it's hard to know what these jobs are like unless you've done them in some way. Yeah, And I feel like I could learn a lot by like spending a few months me too.
I mean, I feel like I was born and raised inside this building. I've been here since I was twenty three years old. Isn't the point of journalism to go off and have broadening experiences and really get to know the industries and the people that you cover.
So and I've had some jobs in finance and that was nice, but I haven't had all the jobs in finance. Yeah, you know, you know, manage a little portfolio for for point sevenue two. I feel like that could be good.
I feel like that's something you do in high school, right, you sign up and have like a paper portfolio.
Well, I think that. I think the traders school is to train them to run a real portfolio. But yeah, some of these schools do have you run a paper portfolio.
Yeah, I think I bought like shares of hot Topic.
Okay, that sounds right. Yeah, I like this is at least the second appearance of hot Topic on this show.
I spent a lot of time at Hot Topic. What else should we say about this? I mean, again, it seems like a cheaper way of doing things. There's a lot of conversation in this article about the talent war going on in hedge funds right now.
I think that it's just like these funds pay so much to portfolio managers, They charge clients so much. There's so much demand for this, and I think part of it is like these are places that are pretty good at identifying alpha and being able to say, like we can strip out all the elements of luck and market exposure and just identify who is skillful at managing investments, and then we can offer you that sort of pure uncut investment skill, and the clients apparently love that because
it's uncorrelated to everything else and it usually goes up, and so they're willing to pay basically whatever fees these funds charge. And given that, it's clear that there's the shortage of people who can generate alpha, and it's not clear that would be like a natural shortage, right, It's just like there's only so many people who've like come through the pipeline of becoming portfolio managers at point seventy
two or whatever. So if you can train more of them, like, you're filling this like enormous unmet demand and you can make a lot of money, right if you can like bring someone in cheaply and turn them into a fifty million dollar a year portfolio manager, Like, yeah, that's a great business.
I don't think I have any ideas, but wouldn't it be fun to like do a thought exercise of like what would your trading school look like? Like what are they learning in trading school classes?
What are they learning in training school classes? So I think that we're sort of exaggerating by saying this is trading school, right, Like this is.
Like that isn't it fun to go along this flight of fancy?
Sure? So I think that this is like a lot of It is like some sort of combination of like actual classes and like mentorship and meetings and whatnot, for like existing analysts who want to move into a portfolio manager roles where they're trying to figure out if they'd actually be good at it. But I will say there are people who run trading schools, and those people are the big prop trading firms.
Right. Oh, I thought you were going to say that people that keep trying to scam me you on Instagram.
Oh yeah, I don't think those people even run trading schools. I think those people just run Instagram ads. But no, like Jane Street and Susquehanna and all those sort of big prop trading firms are very invested in training people how to think like traders, because you can't really hire people out of school who know how to do that if you're hiring investment bankers. It's like some combination of like can they do a DCF model and like will
they work really hard? And there are ways to figure that out, but knowing if people are good at operating under uncertainty and like estimating probabilities in their head and sort of being decisive and like taking risks in the
right way. It's just harder, and so a lot of what these firms do, both in their like lengthy interview process and then like in their like internship programs, is like they sit them down to like play poker every night, and they play like fake trading games where they evaluate their ability to like make these decisions. So it's a really like very organized trading school where they're trying to see who is like overconfident, who is too timid, and who has like the right ability to take risk.
There were some examples in The Big Take. At Citadel, for example, trainees are taught how to back pitches from colleagues lower down the food chain. At bally Asny, they get a limited pot of cash, then they have to deliver returns that match or beat the firm's older hands. Zer point seventy two wants it's cadre to think like CEOs, meaning they'll need to create and run a book of ideas,
all while getting total buy in from their teams. That doesn't quite fit my fantasy of my dream trading school, right.
Because this is not really at trading school. This is a like developing like soft skills. Yeah, it's like developing like senior portfolio managers. Like that's a management job. That's an investing job, but it's also like a risk taking job, right, Whereas like if you're like a twenty two year old the Jane Street, you're.
Being taught to indian options. Yeah yeah, right.
There's great stories in Michael Lewis's about going infinitely No, just kidding. I've at Sam Bachminfried's training days at our internship days at Jane Street, where he like learned to like make positive expected value coin flip bets with his fellow interns. Right. Part of the goal of the trading program was to like have the interns bet against each other and sort of see who was good at betting and who is good at like finding and exploiting edges.
I would not want to go to that trading school, but I like the idea of the trading school as a sort of like Darwinian fight between the interns, for like, you know, there's only so many jobs, and whatever intern can like out trade the fellow interns gets the job. You know.
See again, that's something I would like to audit. Since I would do terribly in that program. But boy would it be fun to watch, right, it's stressful. I would find fake m and ice dress, It's just so good.
Virgin Orbit Space company went bankrupt like last year, right, but before that, it sort of announced that it was in its last stages, like it furlowed all of its employees. And this guy named Matthew Brown sent them a LinkedIn message being like, hey, I would like to invest two hundred million dollars in your company, and they were like, hey, great, that sounds good, thank god, and they like negotiated the deal with him, and eventually the deal fell apart, probably
because he didn't have the money. SEC brought a case against them this week, certainly claiming he didn't have the money, and in fact, he sent a screenshot of his bank account showing like one hundred and eighty two million dollars to Virgin Orbital, but it was a doctored screenshot and actually it had less than one dollar. Yeah, strange amount of money to having bank account.
Yeah, quite a discrepancy.
So deal fell apart, and the SEC sued him for fraud, saying that it was a fake takeover offer. But what I think about It is like I read a lot about fake takeover offers, and they're all the samewhich is that someone like buys stock in a company and the like puts out a press release saying, hey, I'm taking this company over, and the stock goes up and they sell the stock and then they like fizzle away. But this guy did not do that. He did not buy stock in the company. He did not put out a
press release. He might have just been doing it for fun.
This obsessed me because I don't understand the motivation.
So he says it's real, right, I mean, like he gave a statement saying no, no, I love.
Let me read it for you. The SEC's complaint is filled with egregious errors, fabrications, and biased allegations that undeniably favor the culprit and the corporate his virgin orbits management. I love that he says that they're the culprit here for doing due diligence.
Yeah right, I mean I have talked to previous fake takeover guys and they're like, why won't this company take my calls. I'm offering to give them all this money as soon as I can raise it. But the company would take my calls. Virgin took his calls like they signed an NBA, They sent him a term sheet. They like sat down and negotiated a deal with him. Yeah, eventually started asking questions like do you actually have this money? Could you put it in an escrow? And he walked away.
But I don't know it was a motivation, like he says it was real. I would like to think that he just wanted to be on TV, like he did this thing. Yeah, and he did eventually get on CNBC to talk about his proposed deal.
He could have just started a fake AI company and gone on TV that way.
But this is so fun. I don't know, right, there are a lot of ways to get on television, but this is a good one. And you grew up in this building. I grew up as an m and a lawyer, and I always thought that like drama of negotiating deals was kind of interesting and exciting. And he not only got to go on TV to talk about his deal, he got to like actually negotiate a deal, like he got a term shet. He was like doing calls with the CEO. He had a lawyer involved, but he's like,
let's not bring the lawyers into this. Too much. I'll just will to negotiate this deal together, so I don't know, seems like it would be fun. I would totally roleplay negotiating and M AND ideals. This is another thing I would do, like besides go to Trader school, I would roll play negotiating M AND ideals for fun. And this guy might have done that.
I would find that so enormously stressful.
Not if you knew you weren't going to do the deal, that's true, you know, oh you know instead of two hundred million dollars, like two hundred and ten million dollars, you like, sure, two hundred ten million dollars. I'm not paying that money anyway. But the other thing is like the SEC claims that what he was trying to do was extract money out of Virgin. So what happened is that, you know, he was like, I'll put in two hundred million dollars and that at some point he sent them
an email complaining that the deal had leaked. This is before he went on TV. Unclear why the deal leaked, but he said, I want a breakup fee. So if this deal doesn't go through for any reason, if I can't actually invest the two hundred million dollars. I want you to pay me like three percent, like six million dollars, right, which is an unusual ask, but people get breakup fees, but not for like deciding not to do the deal.
But if it had worked, if Virgin Orbit had said, sure, will give you six million dollars if you can't give us the two hundred million dollars, then he might have walked away with six million dollars.
But wouldn't that have been clawed back?
Yeah, of course it's not a good plan because they were going into vocracy and they didn't infect going to vocracy. Like the idea that they'd pay him six million dollars for like pretending to do an equity investment not that likely.
Again, this just seems totally, totally stressful. The CNBC appearance in and of itself was pretty weird. I didn't watch it. I don't think I could watch it. I find it very stressful to watch.
It was stressful to watch.
We fully plan on transacting with the company within the next twenty four hours. I have positions in over thirteen space companies, and I view them all as neighbors.
He did not seem like an experienced investor in space investor.
Yeah, I would also struggle to name thirteen space companies.
But that's why I think he would have as well.
That's a good joke.
It felt stressful and it did not make me confident that the deal was going through.
What do you do after this? He's thirty four, right, so I don't know. Maybe he was a long career of you know, fake M and I in front of him, but I feel like this kind of blew his cover.
Sometimes these things are like people who actually do do a little investing and bite off more than they can chew, right, And like, maybe he can go invest money in other companies and be like the SEC got it all wrong that time. Yeah, I'm good for this one million dollar investment.
I don't know, I mean at this time. But you also think about Virgin Orbits perspective during all of this, because this was sort of like a White Night Savior moment.
Yeah, they did start asking him questions like do you have the money? But like they definitely like, you know, he sent them an email and they engaged right, like, yeah, he sent them like a cold LinkedIn message?
Anything done over LinkedIn? I mean, come on, there's like.
No record of him, right, Like he's you know, he's like, I've invested seven hundred and fifty million dollars in space companies and they're like, sure you have, right anyone? Yeah, it was good, right, Like they would take anything at that point, right, Like this is not the first, you know, the top person on their list of potential investors. But at this point they're like a week from bankruptcy. They're like, yeah,
we'll take what we can get. And so they'd returned his calls, right, it is tough for them, right, Like they jumped all in on engaging with this guy who turned out to be fake. Apparently that not a lot of other good options.
Yeah.
I think someone from the company I read called it in unneeded distraction, but what was a very critical time? And I'm sure they yes and no?
Right, I mean like, yeah, was he distracting them from other better investments?
Maybe? Probably not, But maybe.
Let's keep the conversation going on M and A. And let's talk about a weird M and A that's going on with Brad Jacobs and QX.
I'm not familiar with the naming structure for his companies, but he's.
Like a XBO QXL, Right.
He's like a logistics guy who.
Likes I guess it's just there's certain letters that he likes.
Right, he's a fan of an but not only an X likes.
You need some yeahs.
Anyway, so he like ran XPO. He's made a lot of money doing logistics, and he wrote a book called how to Make a Few Billion dollars.
I have it on my desk. I still haven't made a few billion dollars.
No, but it's like such a good aspiration. It's like not one billion dollars, yea like a lot of billion dollars, but a few billion.
Dollars, you know, can get comfortable.
Yeah, events these businesses really like rolls up smaller businesses. Rightly, he goes out and acquires a bunch of smaller companies, and uh, he's decided he's going to do that in the building products distribution business.
Sexy.
Yeah, it's like companies that distribute I don't.
Know it's important, Okay.
Like I haven't read the book, but this is apparently how you make a few billion dollars. Find like a large, lucrative, kind of boring niche and then you buy all the companies in that space.
And you know, make them more in an industry.
Yeah, so he's done that before. His plan is to do it in this building products distribution space. So he started q SO in QXIT, Like he's raised like four point five billion dollars. Like some of that is his own money, some of us from big outside investors. And you know, he's like got a four point five billion dollar fund to go out and buy building products distribution companies and roll them up into a big QXO thing and then you know, make a lot of money out of it.
But he didn't do it as like a fund or as a private company. He did it by acquiring this little public company called Silver Sun Technologies, which is like a real company.
It sells software.
Yeah, it's like it like sells business software to it like resells business software to businesses and then consults them on how to use the software. It sort of seems like it's vaguely in the same like building products universe, but it's like selling software instead of building products. Anyway,
it exists. It's a real company. It's a public company, publicly traded small as like you know, one and a half million dollars of net income a year on like fifty million of revenue, and like you know, it was like a like fifteen twenty million dollar market gaps. It's like a small company that's a public company. And he called them up, apparently through Goldman, like his investment bankers called up silver Sign and was like, we want to put in a billion dollars into silver Sun. Take it over.
We'll own basically all the stock, but not all the stock, most of them, ninety nine percent of the stock, and we will change its name to QXO and make it into this you know, platform for rolling up building products distributors. And silver Son was like, yeah, sure, And so he bought silver Sun for.
A billion dollars insane.
And so now he owns.
Basically all just like a twenty five million dollar market cap.
Yeah, it was like as low as like fifteen ish or something like not that long ago, but yeah, it's like double digit millions. Yeah, so now he owns like basically all of it. But there's a little bit. There's
like six hundred thousand shares that trade. Yeah, and all these people not that many people, but like the people who buy the six hundred thousand shares, you know, there's like retail demand for people who want to invest alongside Brad Jacobs, Right, they're like, we've read he's a guy who I make a few billion dollars a few times. This is a good plan. He's going to make money doing this roll up, So let's put our money into it.
But like there's so few shares that are publicly available that they're trading it like they've gone down there in like the seventies now, but like there are like two hundred and thirty dollars a share a couple of days ago, which if you multiply that by like the total shares, like the people who put in the four point five billion dollars to actually do this company, you get a
market cap of like almost two hundred billion dollars. So I think that the retail investors applying the stock do not quite understand how the capital structure works, and so they're buying this stock at a price applying a two hundred billion dollar valuation for company that again is just a fund of cash, right, Yeah, it's just a four point five billion dollar pot of money that Brad Jacobs will use to go out and find companies. Right now, it doesn't do anything.
So as this tiny little tech business well to be fair. This is an extremely weird capital structure. YEA, Like why is my first question? Like, why not just do this the normal way and eventually IPO and go about it that way? Like why buy this small cap with the plan to spin it off. I went back to a December twenty twenty three interview that Brad Jacobs did and he said, basically, we're putting it into a small cap.
We're going to spin that company back to the leglacy shareholders in a few months when the deal closes, the Silverstone shareholders will have their company back. They'll also have a two and a half million dollars dividend, and they'll get zero point three percent share in my new company. Like, that is a lot of steps.
Yeah, by the way, they didn't do that. They were planning to do that. Yeah, they changed their mind and they didn't spin out the legacy business to the old shaholders. They're keeping the legacy business, which by the way, is like it's a small business, but it has like two hundred employees. It's not like a nothing, it's like a real company that does stuff. So they're keeping the legacy business.
They're not spinning it out to the sharelders and instead of paying them two and a half million dollars, they're paying them like seventeen million dollars, which again is like sort of a round where the market cap was before Brad Jacobs came along. Why do it? I don't know, it's weird. I mean he had Goldman Sachs like calling small caps forever.
Importantly, they called and they didn't send a LinkedIn message.
Yeah right, I mean that's the normal way to do m and A is like your banker knows someone calls them rather than sending me a cold linked in. But anyway, the answer is it's nice to be publicly traded. Sometimes it gives you some advantages in fundraising. I think that a big part of the answer is probably if you're doing a roll up, you want to be able to give people stock, and it is perhaps more convenient to
be able to give people publicly traded stock. So if he's going to buy a small building products distribution company, he can be like, you know, I have this pot of money. I have like four point five billion dollars. I can give you some money for your company, or I can give you some of my publicly traded stock
or some combination of them. And so you know, if you're rolling up these businesses, people who have built these businesses over time want to have some continued economic exposure to the thing they built, and so like you can give them stock, it's like you know you'll still have some you know, diluted economic interest in the thing you built. There's a bit of a problem where like what price
do you give them the stock at? Because he is like raising money at call nine dollars a share, which is like kind of roughly like you're putting in cash into a fund, right, Like you're buying it at like sort of the cash value of the fund. But like, meanwhile, the stock is trading it like seventy dollars a share,
because it's like people's hopes. So I don't know the first roll up he does, the first acquisition he does, like, is he going to pay in stock valued at nine dollars a share seventy dollars a share?
Yeah, it feels I mean in some ways similar to the Destiny Tech situation in d xyzes when we're talking about enormous, enormous premiums here.
Right exactly, Like Destiny Tech is a pot of money that owns it's like a pot of shares in private companies, and you know, it's like cool private companies that retail investors can't invest. It's like you know, SpaceX and whatever. And so when they took Destiny Tech public, there was more demand for the shares than the actual value of the companies it owned, and so it was trading it
like one thousand percent premium to net asset value. This is a little bit like that, right, Like this is your chance to invest in Brad Jacob's private investment vehicle rolling up the building products distribution business. But the trade
off is like you're not really investing in that. You're really investing in like the sort of MEMI retail premium to the actual value of the company, because like if he does really well and like triples the value of the company, that's still way less than what people are paying for the retail stock today.
Yeah.
I also am curious about how Silver Sun executives feel, because in some ways it kind of feels like winning the lottery. I would imagine, like, how did he pick this company?
I think that I think that the bankers must have had a list of very small companies that we could acquire because it's not like he paid them a billion dollars, right, Yeah, it's like you put a billion dollars into the company and like the existing shareholders, what do they get. They get a divot end, right, which is in round numbers like fifty to one hundred percent of the value of
their shares. Right, They're getting paid in cash, and then they also keep their shares, which have you know, gone up from like nothing to to dollars tell.
Them right now, Yeah, I think a lot of them.
I would think a lot of them probably would have. Yeah.
Yeah, again, it just feels like winning the lottery. This is so strange, it's very strange. Yeah.
Now, there's always been this sort of like industry of little public companies that are useful for reverse mergers, because every soft and someone wants to become a public company, not by doing an IPO, but by like merging with an existing public company that doesn't have much there, right. And so with silver On, the idea was like, there's a little bit of a business there, and we'll spin it out to the existing shareholders, so we'll end up
keeping its listing but getting rid of its business. Then they changed their mind and they're keeping its business.
Too, And why do you think they did that.
I don't know. My guess would be it's just logistically easier, but I don't know.
Curious.
A lot of like reverse mergers are done with companies that like don't really have any business at all anymore. They did exist and they closed down. So you see all these companies that were like gold miners and then they became cannabis companies, and then they became crypto miners, and then they became AI company. Yeah, they did like like every buzzword because they keep being like reused for
their public listing. Yes, quite like that. This is like the sort of high end version of that, but it's still, you know, a twenty five million dollar company. This is like a billionaire calling Goldman to call a company, and they're not going to call like the worst of the cannabis companies, but like it's a small company.
Yeah.
The best of these is, of course, the New Jersey Deli.
Oh my god, your hometown Hometown Deli.
Hometown International is a public company that had one deli and at some point in like twenty twenty one, David Einhorn called it out because it was a single deli that was trading at one hundred million dollars.
That was such a bull that was full time.
It was amazing, And like I wrote a column about it, pointing out that actually the fully diluted value of the Deli when you counted for all the warrants, was two
billion dollars. Yeah, and like the Deli was very perplexing, but like, ultimately it sort of turned out it was like some reverse merger promoters who were hoping that you would have a sort of valuable enough public company that someone would want to do a reverse merger with it and go public by merging with the Deli, and the Deli was just sort of like an easy business to
hive off the eventual public company. But then they were so for fraud because they were sort of allegedly manipulating the stuff.
Is the Deli still an operation? Like is there a physical Deli?
I believe the Delhi closed that. At the time, there was so much financial journalism about the Delhi, like several business reporters went to this town in New Jersey and ordered sandwiches.
To be naturally the sandwiches are good.
I always found that puzzling because if you looked at the financial statements of the Delhi, which were public because it was a public company that was also deli, their employee costs were so low, Like I was like, how could they be open even ten hours a week? So I don't know, but apparently financial journalists would go to the Delhi and order sandwiches and the sandwiches are pretty good. So it was a real enough deli but also somehow front.
But anyway, this is a real public company that was kind of small and now was like a tiny part of a big fund.
Yeah, Della's do some roll ups and consolidate this industry.
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