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I do have a bird update.
I was gonna say, you texted me a picture of your bird. Yeah, and you just like, without any sense of irony, You're like, Fatspa's teen feathers are coming in.
So she's just foughts ban I think so, I mean see.
Thoughts, but like for purposes of this podcast, or do you call him that? Like to your parents and in the.
Halls and walls of the Greifeld house, he is just bird. And also we're saying he as if he's a boy, but we don't know that.
But this front of the show Lackman.
Yeah, to the rest of the world, he's Fatspa front of the show Bill Lackman. But I haven't explained the joke to my parents.
Yet, so we explained it to the bird quietly.
I think I have said to him, your name is Bilackman, but I don't think he's internalized that that was the update though, that his teenage feathers are coming in.
Good him.
Yeah, it's super interesting. Hopefully I'm not the only one who thinks so. And Starling's are juveniles when they first grow their feathers, they're super brown. And kind of boring. But in the later stages of being a juvenile, he's still not an adult he or she, but they get this like interesting polka dot pattern on their chest and so it's growing in and patches the polka dots on his chest. Yeah, he's super cute.
Yeah, so you'll know his gender because like they have different plumage on their adults.
Yes, So hopefully in the next couple months we should know it'll be a gender reveal.
Are you gonna have a bird gender reveal party?
I think it's more he or she is throwing the party for us, and the party is just very solely overtime the feathers change.
This is making me realize I have another question, which is, what will thoughts but romantic life be, like.
You know, none or I think right now it's none. I would like to.
I'm settled down at a nice lady bird of us.
Yeah, exactly, you know, I don't know. I was thinking it would be nice for thoughts but to have a friend where my parents live in New Jersey. Unfortunately, it's not that uncommon to find stranded baby birds, so maybe that'll happen in the next few years.
Right, I assume like there's no prospect of like visiting wild starlings chatting with thoughts like.
Setting him up with a wild bird. I don't know. I don't know logistically how that would work. I don't think there are like any starling stud farms either.
But hey, just run around the backyard right like indoor bird or I don't know if.
He would come back, And I worry about him being able to feed himself. He is. Oh another update. I sort of got this one as interesting too. So I was talking about how he only wants to land on humans. So because he's in this largish half outdoor half indoor room, and he had been in the cage and then we would let him out for free flight, I made the executive decision, let's just have him out all the time.
The cage doors are open. He can go in and out as he pleases, because there's a hose and a drain in the floor in that room, so we can just clean it down whenever we need to.
With I need a like that.
With the introduction of free flight, he is much more confident about perching on things other than humans.
Yeah. Yeah, he's like flying around all day and needs.
Sometimes That's there's not always a human in the room with him, So now he's more comfortable with the idea that other objects are suitable purchase.
Hello, and welcome to the Money's Love Podcast, your podcast where you're talking about stuff related to money. I'm Matt Levine and I read the money Stopt column for Bloomberg Opinion.
And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and an anchor for Bloomberg Television.
If that's he's going to be all burned updates, it's just gonna be Yeah, but he's going to get a.
Microphone and he's just squawks. He does have different squawks for different things, Like you can tell when he's talking about atfs when you talk about ETFs, you know, or memes for that matter.
Yeah, memes, memestocks are back.
We're back in twenty twenty one, the helcyon days.
I have to say, yeah, I'm not feeling it. Are there people feeling it? Am I just old? Like? Are the people on the internet like, oh yeah, this is just as good as it was in twenty twenty one.
It kind of reminds me of Crypto, how Crypto had this resurgence and we're back at all time highs and then some and it just feels like way less people care. And it feels kind of that way with the meme frenzy that we're seeing right now.
Crypto is weirder because Crypto has a lot of different like streams, like memestocks kind of have you know, one stream which is people on the internet doing memes. That's true, it just feels like less.
Yeah, I don't know, Well, we've seen it before.
You know, you've seen it before.
It was novel the first time.
Right, I mean, you know the point at memes Dice is like people are on the internet talking about them and then too they go up a lot, right, and you really need the going up a lot to make it that fun. And I feel like we're not quite there. I mean, the Novelty in twenty twenty one was so you know, like millions of people came to Wall Street Bets for the first time, like it was creating millions
of accounts a day. Yeah, and that doesn't seem to be happening here because like everyone who was going to get into it get into it. I mean now that fully realized. The first time I knew it, but I didn't like fully internalize it. How much memes dogs are? Can I do with short squeezes? It's so important to every memestock thesis, like oh, the evil shorts are getting squeezed right, Like it's it's like such a central part
of the story. And like one thing is that there were learnings from twenty twenty one hedge funds, like don't short a ton of crummy consumer focused stocks because you might get carried out. And so if all the shorts are like less short, then uh, you know, Bernhower was writing about this newsletter that the shorts are going to
have smaller positions in this conference. So what that suggests is like one, it's easier to do a short squeeze, like you'll get kind of the meme stock pop because as soon as a stock starts meming, all the shortsellers
are going to cover their positions. But then two, it's not going to be as long lasting or as big because they all just cover their positions immediately and there won't be like the games up there with like months where people were like, oh, it's going to be the mother of all short squeze is the shorts still haven't enforced that, and like that's just it's instantaneous now. Yeah.
It still does though, seem like maybe it's not sophisticated hedge funds who are short in these stocks, like most of the ones that went crazy this week, or Real least Coals, which kind of led the meme frenzy this specific week. I think it's forty eight percent of its float was shorted. Yeah, I mean, well, I was thinking about that list that you asked chat gibt for or the chat GBT produced for you, and one of it was, you know, the company needs to be unloved or not appreciated.
Yeah, right, So I asked chat gbt like it's the next caravan and it's the next hundred bagger, and it gave me this kind of memi answer. Yeah, it was like it needs to have a heavy short interest and be like unloved or underappreciated by the market. And that is kind of that's it.
That's like it felt like that was the most important thing.
Or it's a sense of resentment. You need to be like mad at you need to have.
A chip on your shoulder. Yeah, so that goes hand in hand with the you know, heavy short interest that this is you're going to put them in the same line.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like there's like technical reasons that everyone could hate US stock and it could not be heavily shorted because it's like really hard to borrow. But now in general, that's those are the same thing.
Something that I appreciated though, about the fact that we're having this conversation in twenty twenty five was that it dispelled at least two myths that were part of the conversation in twenty twenty one. The first being that the activity that we saw back then was all fueled by stimulus checks, you know, the stimulus checks that the govern and had helicopter across everyone.
Yeah, I know. That totally dispels that met I mean, like some of the stuff I've read about this meme stock thing is like there's been enough of a stock rally to create kind of a wealth effect, and like the snameuless checks are another form of that.
But yeah, I agree, Like, yeah, that could have been true in any time. That's right, except for I guess twenty twenty two and everyone.
But yeah, I mean, no, you're right, it's not the stimulus checks, and.
The wealth effect I think has somewhat been eroded by inflation. The fact that Okay, stocks have gone up, but it so have the prices on everything else. I was in a grocery store and Hoboken and there were these like probably looking college kids and they were complaining about the price of like produce. I was like, that's so interesting, Like it's just so much in just everyday conversations that you stumble across people complaining about how expensive everything is.
So I think the wealth effect is out there, but I think it's less so. The other myth that it dispelled was that the me mania was just a byproduct of zero interest rates. That is very much not the case right now.
Yeah, that's fair, right. Another thing that you were just learning it was like, it's not an isolated phenomenon, right, It's not just like it has happened once and then people like learned from it. Like I think that what people learn from it is like it works, right, It's like a good game.
It's a good game.
Why not make a stock triple? And you know the course of a few days.
Also, I know you explicitly said it's not investment advice, but I know that so many people after reading your column must have for fun, gone to chat GBT and asked what the next carbon is?
Yeah, I mean, like right, I wrote, like a reader emailed me to be like I aske chat GPT and that carbon I was, and it told me open Door, So I bought open Door and look at me right.
And I don't get the sense that what has happened in the last week or two is mainly or like largely AI driven, Yeah, but it does feel like in twenty twenty one there was this like coordination mechanism where people who wanted to buy Mimi stocks and like have stocks that go up a lot, like would go to you know, social media, so they'd Reddit mostly right Wall Street paths, and they'd like meet their friends there and their friends would talk about what stocks would go up,
and they'd all kind of like coordinate around the stocks that they wanted to go up. And like, in some ways it feels like AI, which is like trained on Reddit, you know, has like found a way to abstract that where now, if you want to find the next to Mimi stock that will go up a lot, your instinct might not be to go to Reddit and ask the
people there. Your instinct might be to go to chat chapt and ask chat chapt and chat GPT might tell you, right, it might tell you something that's kind of similar to a reddit or would tell you I think that's an interesting, like new vector for meme stocks to happen. And yeah, it's like you don't need anyone else on Reddit pumping the stock because like our AI tools have now been trained on that kind of meme stock, thinking.
Yeah, I hadn't heard the idea that lllm's are just a blurry jpeg of the Internet.
That's a ten Chang's headline that I love that.
I love that I hadn't read that piece. I will say, reading your music's on that just made me more existentially worried about humanity because I don't think that people should be taking advice from Reddit or the blurry sess thing that's produced Reddit, right.
I mean Alex balk used to say the first rule of the Internet is the things you hate about the Internet or the things you hate about people. When you say people shouldn't be taking advice from Reddit, you're saying people shouldn't be taking advice from people like AI is a distillation of Yes, the wisdom and the foibles of people right of the masses, Yeah, of something of some subset of people. Yeah, the people who are on Reddit,
not only but also them. Yeah. Right, Like used to write this, Like if you had asked someone one hundred years ago what stocks should I buy? Or like how do stocks go up? They probably have said something like stock go up because a lot of people want to
buy them. It's like fairly straightforward. I think if you ask people fifty years ago what stocks will go up, they would say things like stocks reflect the expected value of future cash flows and true stocks that will go up are the ones that have good businesses that are undervalued by the market or something right.
Makes sense, And I think if you asked.
Today, the answer is the stocks that people want to buy are the ones that go up. Right. Yeah, there's this like pseudo science of investing based on fundamental analysis that kind of ruled for fifty for you know, seventy five years, and that now like has received a little bit and been replaced by ah, whatever people want to do, what they're going to do, right, And like, in some ways we've had like new technologies to distill and like amplify whatever people want to do they're going to do,
and those technologies include the Internet and now AI. But like In some ways it's frustrating because things don't have reasons, but in other ways it's like that's how it should be. It's just like investing is an empirical science. Like if the stocks go up, it's because the stocks went up. There's not like some axiomatic that will tell you why thyes will go up. It's like you have to sort of know what people are thinking.
I do kind of love that. Every time this happens. You know, there's a set of serious people who have to engage with it and like try.
To Am I one of them? Not really, No, No, I'm talking more about like I lost my mind the last night that happened, but now I have like zen.
I'm talking about more about like cell side sure, and like you know, single.
Stock anlysts, you really like live in an ecosystem of like stocks reflect the present value of their future cash.
Yeah, that's your bible. Yeah, your whole job is predicated on that.
You have like a little fundamental model.
It's really right, It's precious. There was a note from Barclay's talking about how to engage with it. They said that one way you can hedge is like through a dispersion trade of sorts, in this case, using options to bet on a basket of meme stocks that will continue to be far more vital than the s and P five hundred. Those wanting to take a more directional bet on the frothiest company they can buy puts that would benefit if he shares reverse course, which I don't know.
I just feel like the safest thing that anyone could do is just not short.
Things, right, I mean, like, I think the idea of buying putsas like you capped your Yes, you could lose that much money, but no more.
Your losses aren't infinite.
Right, It's the safest way to short meme stacks. But no, I agree with you, Like I would not personally wake up and see a memestack mania and be like, oh I gotta betty ends these. That's on that good use of my time. But I'm not a professional investor and I'm not a research channelist or.
Even before you get to that point, you know, if you don't want to get your face ripped off on a company that you were shorting, maybe just don't short it, right, Yeah, no investment advice.
No, I wouldn't. But I you know some people, some people you know their job is to make correct market calls, and other people their job and I symbolize with the research channeists, because other people their job is to create relevant markets related content. And when there's a memestock behavior, you're like, well, what memestock content am I going to produce? And I know that I know that difficulty. Well, sympathize with anyone else who has to create memes like related content.
I want everyone to know that this was your idea.
I know. I keep pushing ETFs, I know, and I keep sayings, I.
Don't know if anyone wants to listen to it. This was Matt's idea.
I love these ETFs.
Yeah, three five three five one ETFs three fifty one's yeah.
So one way to understand exchange traded funds is that they're exchange traded funds and they have nice like liquidity properties. But the real way to understand ETFs is that they are tages. Yes, and in particular, I learned that if you buy a mutual fund like you annually pay capital gains taxes on like the funds trading activity as whereas if you buy an ETF you do not. Because ets have found a way to make all of their trading both the meet redemptions and to like change their positions.
They found a way to make all of their trading not a tax realization event. And this involves like in kind creations and redemptions. That involves like doing big heartbeat trades with like authorized participants. It's a whole ecosystem. But the way it works is the result of it is that you don't pay taxes.
Well, you get to decide one you want to take the tax hit.
Yeah, if you buy an ETF, this is not one hundred percent try, but this is you know, largely true direction. If you buy an ETF, you do not pay any taxes until you sell the ETF, which is not true of mutual funds. Are mutual funds you pay tax every year and the older forever. But with an ETF, you don't pay taxes until you sell the ETF shares and then gets wrapped up in the ecosystem of like you buy an asset, you defer taxes forever. You bar against
the asset if you need to. Eventually you die, your airs get stepped out basis and like no one ever pays the tax, but at least you defer the tax. So even if you saw you might have to. If you sell the thing, eventually you pay taxes, and so that's really good. And it's like, you know, if you own like an S and P five hundred ETF, it's a little bit more tax efficient than if you own an SMP five hundred mutual fund because they're trading your
redemptions whatever. But like, like whatever, it's not a huge impact on your life to pay those capital in sizes. Where it's really interesting is if you can use that to wrap other stuff. And so I think and so we're talking about like the Bloomberg's just teamed to lead you write a big article about these these three but like directionally, the idea is you worked at like a tech company, you got a lot of stock early on, and so your stock has a basis of roughly zero
and it's now worth roughly one hundred million dollars. Does seem like some of these trades are for like one hundred million dollars, And so you have a lot of the stock and if you sell it, you'll have tens
of billions of dollars with capital against taxes. And what you do is someone comes to you and like I will build an ETF for you, and you PLoP your stock into the CTF that it is custom built for you, and then the ETF does trades to get of that stock and replace it with like, you know, the S and P five hundred, and then you are left with S and P five hundred and you don't pay any taxes deferred taxes. You have zero basis in the S
and P five hundred, but you've deferred taxes. You've sold out of your giant concentrated position in your employer stock and replaced it with like a nice diversified index fund without paying taxes, which is a really neat trick. Yes, I'm like oversimplifying. There's actually like rules about the original contribution has to be kind of diversified, so you can't just literally PLoP all of your employers stock and nothing else into it. But you can do it.
We've talked about swap funds on this.
This is like a better swap fund. You don't need other people, you just do it with your stuff. Historically, a swap fund was like ten people get together and they PLoP their stock in and then.
Like I don't know, ten people.
Firstified pool of like each other stocks. This is like we just boot boom. You're into the S and P five hundred so much clean. It is like a swap fund. It's a similar idea.
So this kind of blows.
INTF form because you get the ability to diversify by doing heart beats. In the article, someone calls it a black hole for capital gain size perfect.
It's like descriptions.
It's just it's just like a solution. You don't have to it's legal. It's legal.
Sure, it's legal, and I want to. I think it was a lawyer that Justina interviewed for the piece who said that he's worked on hundreds of these or something of that magnitude, right, and like.
It's hundreds, it's not millions. Yeah, because like you need a certain amount of money to make this work. This is not free. You need some advisor. Do you need an ETF issuer to do a white label ETF for you? So it's expensive. If you have one hundred million dollars of zero basis stock in your employer, like it's worth it because you're saving twenty million dollars with capital inside.
If you have like you know, you bought some Tesla a few years ago and now you have a million dollar Tesla position with like a basis of like five hundred thousand dollars, you're probably not going to do this. But one thing that I have talked about on this.
Podcast is I think have I also talked about it.
We've talked about it, right, I have like advocated that like eventually everything will be an eaty, Like everything, every product will be etfized, and like one thing that means is like there will be automation and costs will come down so that if you're just like I want to do an ETF of this thing, like you'll push a button and it'll charge you like ninety five dollars and
you'll get the ATF. And like when that happens, no one will have to pay capital gains taxes on their stock because everyone will be able to do this.
And then we'll find out some way that this is illegal, Like it'll become.
One will be like, well we should stop that. It's not like obviously this should work, right, I mean yeah, So the trade that they do is called a heartbeat, right, Like the idea is that you're an ETF, you want some concentrated stock, you don't pay taxes on in kind creations and redemptions. So if someone brings you a basket of your stock, if they bring you a basket of the underlying shares and you give them ETF shares, that's
not a taxable transaction or vice versa. And so what they do is they have special baskets where basically, you know, a Jane Street or a bank or somebody will go to an ETF. They'll bring in the stuff the ETF wants. They'll give them the S and P. Five hundred, they'll get back ETF shares. They'll wait like a day, and then the next day they'll hand back the ETF shares and take out whatever the ETF doesn't want. So it's like, these are not taxable transactions. Yeah, but they're weird transactions.
They're not in the full underlying basket of the ETF. They're in like the specific stuff that ETF does he doesn't want, And they're not done because the counterparty wants to be an investor in the ETF. They're done because you know, the ETF is a just thing. It's training. I first learned about this in twenty nineteen when Bloomberg had a big article about heart beats and.
A seminal piece or a.
Seminal piece, and they were sort of like this really be legal, and you know, my view was like, sure it should be legal. ETFs doesn't pay taxes. But now it's like people have like learned from this mechanism that they can just get rid of all taxes. And then it's like, yeah, you know, someone might look at this and say, hey, we should close that loophole.
That's the thing, Like the notion of a heartbeat is pretty well socialized at this point, but like these individualized heartbeat ETFs. The fact that these ETFs only exist to do this because you see heartbeat trades once a quarter in some of the biggest CTFs out.
There, right because they're index funds. The index changes, and so they have to get rid of some stocks and get those talks and like you heartbeat that away so you don't pay taxes. It's not obvious that ETF holders shouldn't have to pay taxes on their index rebalancing, but like everyone's fine with that.
It's fine, Yeah, this is this is this is the only purpose of the CTF.
I mean, who can say with the only bet who can say?
But so this leading anecdote that just you know, opened with was talking about the Twin Oak Active Opportunities ETF and and the thing about ETF, So this one has nearly four hundred and fifty million dollars in assets that could theoretically be all one person.
It could My impression was that it was like a bunch of like SMP and stuff. But then it was like three sort of nearly one hundred million dollar positions and like three text talks, which no, say, day a dog suggests it was roughly three people who like this is pure speculation, but like it could have been three people who were really employees at those companies or were like granture capital investors in those companies and who have like very low basis thok in those companies.
Well, theoretically, if they are still holding onto the CTF and invested in the CTF in some way and they're big enough, we should be able in like forty five days or something to see who they are sure, which is interesting to me. So you lose yes early the.
Judge of that it does you don't know, right, I don't know worked at a company.
You use the anonymity that you would get in the traditional swap funds.
Yeah. The other thing that was interesting. The article is like you lose that and you're even in a more regulated, more public vehicle. One thing about it is in the ETF trades on the exchange, so anyone can buy it. Next to the other thing, no one would. They don't market it, and like it's not even clear that anyone could because you might own all of it and just not sell it. But but like you know, but they can. They can buy from authelized participants. Like in theory someone
could buy the ETF. Well, and so you have like these weird obligations where you have like fiducial duties to run the ETF in the right way.
Well, going back to the name, the twin Oak Active Opportunities ETF, which builds itself, is seeking long term capital appreciation. I could be poking around at my brokerage account somehow come across that and be like, yeah, you could click buy. I want to see capital appreciate. That sounds good. So that's cool too, right.
It's a like weird family office trade that in theory anyone could free ride on. But like the whole juice in the trade is in the first like three days, so you're not like getting the a super exciting product if you just buy it on the exchange, because like the whole point of it was to say with the people taxes.
Sometimes I wonder slash worry about what's going to happen to the ETF industry. As a reporter, I don't have any feelings, but it feels like every ETF. I track ETF filings very closely, but every ETF filing nowadays is like triple leverage quantum computing stock with an income strategy overlay. It's just crazy. It's like all of this like spaghetti sauce that's being thrown at the wall, and then maybe these will become more popular, and then what does the industry turn into. I don't know.
It's just like it turns into everything. It's it's so I've written about like tokenization mm hmm, and I think it like tokenization of securities is being largely like people trying to find sneaky rays around securities laws and like pretend that it's about technology. But someone asks you, like what do you think is like the good case? Like where are like useful things that can be done with the organization? And I look at this stuff and I'm like,
this is gonna be token. Like this is like a whole product set that will be turned into APIs that will be turned into like, if you want et F, there will be like a series of buttons you can push and the ETF will come out and will be like exactly the et F you want, and it will
just exist as an ETF. And you want to have to like sit at a meeting with a wealth manager or like go to a white label ETF firm, you'll just like the computer will give you the ETF that you want, and it will heartbeat away whatever you don't want.
I feel like that is change traded everything, yea, not just funds.
Any portfolio, any trade, any like combination of wins.
Yeah, any desire that I might feel.
About to hold. Yeah, yeah, any desire.
Well we have to talk about Invesco.
Yes, that's your idea, okay.
Also in ETF land. This one actually was my idea. But really interesting filing last week. I should stop saying interesting. Let me just state of fact. There was a filing last week from Invesco. Here's something that not a lot of people know or care about.
I mean to step out of the room. You have fun.
The queues. The queues it's an ETF the tracks the NASAQ one hundred, so it's pretty big, pretty huge, three hundred and fifty three hundred and sixty billion dollars depending on the day. Started in the nineties, really from the dawn of the ETF, one of the oldest still existing ETFs. It's actually a unit investment trust. And that's interesting. My mind is blown because Invesco doesn't make any money off of the queues. The way that the fee breakdown as
it stands right now, they charge twenty basis points. A bunch goes to Nasdaq, from which they license the index. A bunch goes to B and Y because they're the trustee. That does leave some for Invesco. But it is written into the que's prospectus that Invesco has to spend that on marketing, which is why the cues are like the official ETF of the NCAA and why every big marketing exactly.
But it's an enormous marketing budget. But I wrote about this in August twenty twenty three because it's one of my favorite quirks in just the investing landscape that the queues are the most profitable ETF because you're charging twenty basis points on three hundred and fifty billion dollars of assets that spins off over seven hundred million dollars of fee revenue a year and investco. It's just this piggy
bank that they can't break. But they're now trying to convert the cues into an open ended ETF from a unit investment trust. But to do that, they need shareholders to approve it. They need holders of the cues to approve it, which is a gargantuan task because they need fifty percent quorum on this vote, and there's tens of thousands of queues holders at this point. So it's like the ultimate exercise in herding cats. And I'm really fascinated to see how this goes.
Well, let me ask you this question. Can they use their enormous marketing budget to like send personal mailings to eat shareholder and like I don't think sor and like please vote?
I don't think so it's marketing. I mean, in a sense, it's not just like marketing the product to buy the product, though, it's like trying to rally shareholders for this specific purpose.
Please buy cues to vote to change it into an ETF.
Well, they are offering a carrot of sorts. They will lower the fee to eighteen basis points.
Eighteen basis points for an index ETF seems still high, stordinarily high.
It is very high. You're right about that, But I mean a lot of these holders are locked in. They've been holding this forever and they don't want to take the capital gains head. But if they are able to convert it, they'll theoretically be able to change the revenue breakdown. So even by lowering the feet, they're still making so much more money than they were before.
They won't have to pay NASDAC.
And So, because it's a natural question posed by my editors, who loses out here? And it seems like who loses out are the advertisers?
You mean the recipient of the advertising?
Yes, exactly. So the thinking seems to be that Nasdaq will still get their eight basis points. There are eight basis points of flesh.
Bony for an index, because like you get, I believe.
It's exclusive though, like I don't think anyone, Yeah, I know, yeah.
Okay, that makes sense.
So NASAK will still get paid a licensing fee, which is pretty hefty. VONI will have some sort of role not trustee. I believe that Invesco is asking shareholders to improve Investco to be the trustee as well. Bloomberg Intelligence estimates that right now Invesco spends eight basis points on marketing,
which is so much money. Invesco estimates that'll be reduced to two to three two to three basis points to start, which translates into something like one hundred and fifty million dollars in annual revenue that Investco would unlock with pretty much no incremental spend to get it right. So you've seen Investco shares go absolutely bananas. I mean, it still needs to be approved. The vote is on October twenty fourth, and it's just going to be so hard to get all those people.
Any I love the difficulty of getting redown investors to it or anything like it comes up occasionally in corporate Yeah, and although not that much because corporates usually have mostly institutional shareholders unless when their means ducks. But yeah, intf Land, it seems hard.
It does seem hard. I think that's interesting. I hope that listeners agree, and please tell me if you don't. The other part of the story that I'll tell you about the only other unit investment trust of really meaningful size out there is Spy Sure, which is also from the nineties, born in nineteen ninety three, such as myself sure, and.
Also famously has there's like some other children born around that time. Whoever in the.
Perspectus, yeah, exactly, like all of these really old ETFs have these funky perspectuses.
Yeah, they really against perpetuity problems, where like, yeah, their trusts and so they can't last past, you know, seventy five years past the life of some living person, and so they name a bunch of babies as like their reference lives for their early against perpetuities.
If you ever really bored, it's worth poking around in the perspectus of ETFs that were born in the nineties.
I have I hope you going to say I've never been that word. I'm pretty sure I've looked at the spy perspective, so might I have been that word?
I asked an Apaglia of State Street Investment Management on Monday whether or not State Street was going to try something similar with Spy, and she said that filing to us is interesting, we are going to learn from it. And I never say never. Do you know if we learn something that we like from this proxy, we will think about it, which I heard as if Invesco is able to pull this off, maybe we'll do it with SPY.
The spy have the same economic structure. Yes, eonomic money from spy.
So some money stays in the door because State Street is currently the trustee on SPY, but they also have to spend a boatload of money on marketing as mandated by the perspectives.
Okay, what's the charge for a spy?
I think spy has nine basis points? I know, Well, they can't lower it that much because they have to give money to their index. They have to give money to the trustee, which is them, and then they have to spend money on marketing with the index.
Like I'm aware of SMP funds that charge.
That's true too, or your bass.
Yeah, the index can't be that expensive.
Definitely less so when it comes to the S and P five hundred. Sorry for all the ETF talk, but half of it was Matt's idea. The other half that was all me.
Please write in and let us know, Please, Darren, No, I.
Always want to hear I read it. I read every comment, so keep them coming. Please don't hurt my feelings.
Go ahead and hurt badlines. And that was the Money Stuff Podcast.
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