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Hello and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast. You're a weekly podcast where we talk about stuff related to money. I'm Matt Levian, I write the Money Stuff column for Bloomberg Opinion.
And I'm Katie Greifeld. I'm a reporter for Bloomberg News and an anchor for Bloomberg Television.
Katie, what do you got today?
We have a meaty show. We're going to talk about, oh, it's a twenty four to seven stock trading potentially what that world might look like. Then we're going to talk about the FTC and non competes, the FTC continuing to be aggressive on a multitude of topics. Then we're going to talk about gold bars, which I'm quite excited about, and the arbitrage opportunities that don't exist.
My readers love in arbitrave twenty four seven stock trading.
Well, there's twenty four to seven, and then there's the possibility that there's around the clock trading just on weekdays, which.
Is a little more humane.
Yes, exactly, I was actually exactly going to say humane, but maybe we should set the scene that this comes from a Financial Times article that Nise took a survey.
They're like, hey, if we had twenty four seven trading, would you trade twenty four seven or twenty four five. I think the survey had a bunch of options. Yeah, it's like twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Both neither and.
I don't believe that we have the results of that survey, which feel key.
I mean, it's not a public survey, it's for their own information. But the reason they're doing it is because there is pressure on it. Right. Someone started to think called the twenty four exchange, that's meant to be a twenty four hour I think it's actually twenty three hours a day, And all the retail brokerages are moving to offer extended hour overnight trading because a lot of robin Hood customers would really like to be able to trade stocks at three am.
Yeah.
So Nice sees where the market is going and is asking its customers about it.
Yeah, and I guess that kind of answers the question of who would this before, and it would be for pajame traders, retail folks.
I think it would be for a lot of pajama trating retail folks. The crypto market has been twenty four to seven. Part of what's causing this is like crypto is twenty four to seven, and people like, oh yeah, twenty four seven trading can work. And you look at crypto, right, they're like peaks when Asian markets wake up and when European markets wake up. So I think some of this might be for like news happens in Asia in like the US overnight and people can go and trade American stocks.
A lot of it is for pajama traders.
I was gonna say, and who am I, But I feel like the crypto market is that where we should be taking our cues from in terms of twenty four to seven trading.
I mean, I'm not sure that crypto has necessarily provided great lessons for like real financial markets. Real financial markets have patterns that come from technology of two hundred years ago, and sometimes it takes a sort of brand new market to cast aside that technology and say, wait a minute, we have the computers to trade twenty four seven, so let's just do it.
Thinking about the effects that this could have. Again, in this hypothetical scenario where there's twenty four to five or twenty four to seven trading, what the effects on liquidity might be are really interesting because in normal market hours in the US, it's the open and the close is when you get the most volume. But if there's not an open and there's not a close, where are the liquidity clusters?
I suspect the answer is the open and the close. I suspect, By the way, like Nicey and Ethic exchanges offer extended hour trading, and it starts structural, but it's in part just like tradition, like people know that nine thirty and four are the times when everyone trades, and so there are auctions then, and that's when liquidity clusters, and you can trade ten minutes before the opening auction or ten minutes after what the opening auction does collect liquidity.
I suspect that it won't be a crypto exchange where it's we just turn it on and it goes forever. Yeah, it'll be like Nicey, where there's a nine to thirty auction and a four o'clock auction and trading during the day and then after hour there's some other thing that's like the overnight session, but it's like a little deprecated so people understand where the main sources of liquidity are.
I root for chaos in general. I'm interested to see what three am would look like on a twenty four to five exchange, what shenanigans would happen around that time.
Presumably it's mostly pajama trading, retail traders interacting with one or two very nervous electronic market makers. And then, like every so often, the catastrophe happens overnight and like big traders rushed to sell and the stock crashes because there's no deep liquidity provision. Yeah, you'll see a lot more flash crashes because like fewer people are going to be putting in quotes at three am, so.
The charts will get super fun, even.
Like one big retail trader could crash the slack. Although you say that the charts like even now, if you look at like the Bloomberg charts, they are the nine thirty to four o'clock session. There's trading after hours, but everyone kind of understands that it doesn't count. You root for chaos. I've been advocating for years that the stock market should move to half an hour a day. The large bulk professional trading occurs at the opening in the close.
If you don't have any like particular reason, right if you're just like if you're a mutual fund with outflows or whatever, Like you did try to get the closing print right. You're looking to trade where there's the most liquidity if you don't have any special information, and if you concentrate all the liquidity at one time, you get more efficient prices. If you've spread the liquidity over twenty
four hours, it like all gets worse. One thing I was thinking about is if you do go to twenty four hour trading, that probably moves some liquidity away from like two pm right right, and so then it has the effect of possibly concentrating even more trading at the open end close, because people are like, oh, there's twenty four hours of trading in the day, there's two real events, and everything else is like a ghost town. So I might as well only trade at the open up the close.
That would be a fun effect if it worked out that way.
It would be even from a reader suggesting that there should just be one auction a day. Everyone could put in their bids in the auction and like you'd clear the stock at whatever the clearing price of the auction was, and then you'd try it again tomorrow.
Beautiful.
That is very appealing to me because it would give people up free time, right, you wouldn't have to trade all the time. The other advantage of that is it
cuts down on the cost of intermediation. I'm not sure, but I think that if you go to twenty four hour trading, then the high frequency trading firms of the world are going to make more money because they're going to be trading with retail traders at three am, and in the aggregate that'll be noise trading, but liquidity will be very thin, and they'll charge a lot for spreads, right, I mean, like the point of a high frequency trader is that there are a lot of people want to
buy stock. There a lot of people want to sell stock. They don't come to the market at exactly the same time, and so some electronic market maker is buying from the people who want to sell, holding the stock for a second or a minute or an hour, and then selling it to people who want to buy. If you spread
out the trading, there's just more of that. There's like more people coming in at different times, and more money for high frequency traders to make because they are doing more of that intermediaty trades in time, whereas if you put all of the trading in one auction, then all the people want to buy, all of the people want to sell meat at that one second, and you don't have any need for like electronic and mediation.
There are your two extremes.
Those are your two extremes. And like the modern like retail stock trading boom, the like meme stock boom. Yeah, people are so mad at the Citadel Securities of the world. They're so mad at the hyper concy traders, but they also want to trade stock at three. Yeah. The memestock boom has been great for those hyper concut traders, right because they're getting all this order flow to trade with, while all these retail traders are so mad at at
Ceditel Securities. This is the same thing where it's like this thing that caters to retail traders, I think will be very good for the electronic market makers.
So they need each other.
Yeah. I think some of the memestock traders have a somewhat faulty understanding of how Citital Securities makes money. I think that if you have twenty four hour trading, it's gonna be really good for those guys. And if you don't like those Guys, if you think that it's bad that these intermediaries make so much money trading stocks, which I don't really think but like a lot of people do, then collapsing it to one single point of trading would be good for making traders.
Then what would the financial television anchors talk about all day?
I was going to say maybe the same thing, but of course.
I just talk about it market more.
Oh yeah, Bomberker could do it to one auction a day. Corporate earnings.
Yeah, it raises the question. I mean you think about what happened with what was it left last earnings cycle with the typo in their release and things went crazy, but it was after hours, so the charts were still clean.
Yeah. I mean, it's like a really traveling possibility about twenty four seven trading is like if you had real twenty four seven trading where I was like, oh, it's like fake and deprecated, but it's like the market is just open all the time. Then like when would companies put out news?
Yeah, and the government too.
Right now, there's this norm of like six and a half hours of market hours, and during market hours you try not to put out market moving news because one if you get it wrong. The stakes are horrible or really high. But like two, if you put out news at ten am, someone's going to see it first. Someone's going to trade on it ahead of someone else. And like the person who sees at first is going to be someone who is paying for like the fastest data
connections to the exchanges. It's systematically going to be not the retail trader.
Right. I have an idea, Well, companies should release their earnings at three am, and if you really care, you're going to be up and we can still have normal ish hours. Agree that it'll still be nine thirty and four pm is when most of the trading happens. But then you have goblin hours.
But if you're like a hedge fund, you're you're awake in goblin hours and like someone's winning and someone's losing.
That's great, not for them, I know, but no, you have goblin hours, and it'll be subverted where you have all the professionals, all the hedge funds, they're trading in the overnight session, and then the normal session will just be kind of boring in retail.
Look, I mean, news happens right now and some people react to and the it is faster than others. But it is not the case that there's a race to react to every piece of corporate earnings news, right or every economic data point, because most of those things come out outside of market hours, and you can't really have that race, right if you have true market hours twenty four hours a day, then like you do have that race every time news comes out, and it's a socially
wasteful race, right. If you ask hedge funds like, what socially valuable thing do you do, They're like, oh, we make prices more efficient. It's like, yeah, understanding earnings news and buying stocks that are undervalued is like a good thing, but racing to do that at three am, one second ahead of another hedge fund is like you should just go to bed and wake up at nine thirty and do it.
I wish that I had the Financial Times article pulled up, because wasn't it one of the questions that was asked in the survey was would the time you spend thinking about overnight trading be better spent thinking about trading during normal hours or yeah?
I think it was like I think it was something like should we stop asking you about this?
Yeah?
It was like with the time that nicey spends thinking about overnight try to be better spent on something else. If trading was one second to day, hedge funds would still have incentives to understand companies and understand what might move their prices and incorporate all the information into their one trade a day. But at twenty four to seven trading, it's like you're spending a lot of time optimizing, Like when you're waking up, you're thinking about things other than the fund.
Mental Again, I root for chaos, but I feel like at least this conversation has talked me into maybe we should just stick to normal hours, or maybe we should just be open for half an hour a day.
I feel like I haven't adequately emphasized the main benefit of half an hour day, which is like everyone would get to relax more and spend more time with their families.
We like watch financial TV.
Well, I mean when I say everyone, I include financial news anchors, and that you would also.
Have less to do in a nice Yeah, maybe non competes.
So we talked about last week about how I did not take full advantage of my gardening.
And now maybe you never will ever again.
Now, maybe no one will ever get gardening leave again.
God. Yeah. The FTC. Interesting move here about basically erratic non competes. Yes, except for senior executives only barely.
Yeah. Basically, the FTC voted this week to ban all non competes forever. If you're a senior executive you currently have a non compete, it's enforceable. But otherwise they voted to get rid of non competes. One important thing here is it's a good chance this doesn't ever happen. Right, the FDC voted to do it. It goes into effect in about six months, but there are already like multiple lawsuits against it, and even the FTC. There are five
FTC commissioners. Two of them voted against it, and they both said in their votes against that this is not going to pass muster with the courts, and we can talk about the FDC's authority for it.
I mean, I am interested in that because my first reaction was like why, and also why the FTC and why is the FTC focusing on this? Shouldn't they be like trying to stop Tapestry from buying Capri and other things.
The FTC was in the business of stopping unfair methods of competition. Right, Like, we mostly think of it as anti trust, right, but it's also like false advertising and like other kinds of fraud. And they think that non competes are an unfair method of competition, and you can see why, right. I mean, like one thing that they talk about in the rule and in the public statements is non competes can stop people from leaving a company
to start a new business. So it's like a very direct way for a company to prevent new businesses coming out to compete with them.
Right.
The rule really mentions doctors a lot, Like doctors are an important case. Doctors will often have non competes, and if you're a doctor and you leave your practice, you have to like sometimes move to a different state to continue practicing medicine, and like to the extent the FTC is in the business of protecting consumer choice and lowering
consumer prices. That seems like it would be bad for consumers that they can't get a doctor because the doctor had to move away, So it makes sense that it's the FTC. Yeah, the FDC, this is not something they've done before, and their authority for it is a little unclear,
and their ability to make rules about it is unclear. Yeah, and you know, we live in a judicial climate where when agencies are like, we're going to make new rules to regulate things we've never regulated before, it's hard to imagine the current Supreme Court saying Okay, great, sounds good.
Right.
It just feels like that's the sort of thing that modern courts don't like.
So some pretty big question marks over authority here. And maybe this won't even happen, But I mean, this was a good reminder that at least I almost exclusively think about non competes in the context of the financial industry. But if you take a look at some of the examples that the FDC used. You wrote about the powerwasher who said, all I know is powerwashing. These business owners
all want me to sign a non compete clause. They also cited someone who works in the asphalt industry, a bartender, and as you were saying, a physician in rural underserved Appalasia. So I don't know, that was a nice reminder.
They've been like media reports about non competes in the fast food industry. It's really it is pretty widespread.
Yeah, the FTC had some numbers there too that nearly twenty percent of workers are subject to non competes today, and their estimate is that it would increase US earnings by at least four hundred billion dollars over the next ten years to abolish non competes. A lot of readers emailed in about PE non competes, PE purchase non competes.
I got like a couple of emails from readers being like, I work in private equity and we buy companies, and a lot of the companies that private equity buyers are like, it's like asset lights, some guy operating in business, right, And so when you buy that business, you're sort of
buying the person. And if you pay that person twenty million dollars to take over his business and then he leaves and sets up another business, he'll probably take all the customers with him, because it's like it's just him, yeah, and you're out twenty million dollars for nothing. And so seeing the headline of like FTC bands on competes, people got really worried that would make it impossible to buy
and sell sort of one person small businesses. But there is an exception for that, like the if you're signing a non compete in connection with the sale of a business, then that's enforceable.
So rest easy.
And you don't even have to be the owner of the business. You know, if you have like a twenty person company, like all the people in the company can sign a non compete and it's still unforceable because you know, what you're selling is the people in the business. So there you go. Rest easy. I want to say one other.
Thing, yeah, and you should.
So the way it works is like they banned future non competes, but they also say all current non competes don't work, they're not enforceable. And so one thing in the rule is that if you're a company that has non competes, you have to send a notice to all of your workers saying your non competes are no longer enforceable, and like they actually have like language and the rule of like this is what you have to put in the email. My impression is that there are a lot
of non competes that are already illegal. In most states, non competes are allowed, but they have to be reasonable, and a lot of people sign unreasonable non competes. And my impression is that companies write these illegal non competes because they figure everyone sees this contract, and they're scared and they're not going to go work for a competitor because they don't want to get sued, and they don't
know enough about the law. They don't know if that the non compete is illegal, And so you can get a lot of mileage out of a non compete as a company by just writing it down and like never trying to enforce it. Even if it's not enforceable. You can just say you can't compete, and then most people won't. So the FDC wants to solve that problem by saying you have to send all of your employees a letter saying your non compute is unenforceable. Go ahead and compete, but garden leave.
I know that you had a bad experience. That also sounds really nice.
A lot of people in normal jobs think non competes are bad because they just restrict their ability to get a new job. But in finance you're like, oh, no, I have to spend six months not working and getting paid for me I can Finance people are like, I kind of like the I like the noncompete status quo. I was trying to figure out what happens to that. In finance, it's like what tools do you have as
a financial firm to prevent people from competing. So one is like you have a noncompete, which is maybe now illegal, but I think the way that things normally work currently is that like you have gardening leave, which is normally structured. I think as you continue to be employed at the firm, and they pay you your base salary, and you stay there for some period, not going into work, not having access to like the email system, getting pay your base salary,
and then eventually you leave. There's a litt unclear how you would actually force that because I think that the way finance works is that you have a non compete, and so when you quit, you say I'm quitting, and they're like, stay for your six month notice period and will pay you. And if you say no, I don't want to do that, they say, we have a non compete. So you can't actually leave at the other firm anyway. So it's like both like the employment terms and the
non compute. If the non compete goes away, it's not totally clear to me that you could enforce the gardening leave because you can be like, oh, you need to provide six months notice to quit, and then someone is like, I quit, I have at will employment in New York.
I'm quitting with no notice. And it's not clear how much they can force you to stick to your six month notice period if you don't want to get paid, if you want to go to your new firm, which if that became the norm, your new firm would insist on it, then you wouldn't be able to get your gardening leaf. Yeah, so I think you can do it. I think you can write employment contracts. Let's say you have to give six month notice. But it's a little trickier than having the non compete as well.
That's interesting to hear because I mean, reading your column and the description of notice period, I was like, oh, well, then we'll just do that.
Yeah. I think that might be where it shakes that, but I'm not totally sure. I think it might be harder to enforce that if people really want to leave without their gardening leave. Now you can imagine everyone having this sort of gentleman's agreement of we're all going to take our gardening leaf. The real hard chargers don't always want to take the gardening leave.
Well, it sort of reminds me this discussion very loosely about like the eternity leave. Maybe we can cut this. But like, if you can get some alpha by not taking your paternity leave and like showing how hardcore and dedicated you are, maybe the gardening leave will kind of turn into that I'm so dedicated and I'm so eager to just get going, I'm not going to take gardening leave. Will become a thing.
Nobody says to their new employer, I'm taking gardening leave. I'll see you in six months. Everyone always conveys the impression that they're so sorry about the gardening leave and they'd really like to get started right away, and then they like go home and you know, sit on the couch and are happy. But I think if it became possible to not take the gardening leave, then I think that would become the requirement. Yes, this ties into the twenty four seven trading, right. You need a certain amount
of rests from your financial job. Gardening, believe is a nice way.
To get that. Like life is just hurtling towards relentlessly just being on all the time.
I think that that is certainly the message of twenty four seven trading. And like my impression is that there are a minority of people in finance who've gotten really good at optimizing for gardening leave. You like, quit your job, spend six months on gardening leave, you start your new job, you're like, ah, I gotta go back to that other job.
Yeah.
Quit After a month, you get like nine months of gardening leave.
It can be like so good. I mean you linked to that tweet about LinkedIn profile. The guy did that and his descriptions were so funny. It was winter while he was gardening leaving, so he just saw on his couch and read books which came from trees, so it was still a form of gardening.
It's a nice benefit of the financial career. You get the occasional sabbatical in the form of gardening leave, and it would be sad I think for a lot of people if it went away.
Not The only way to get a lot of time off is to have a child.
Spoken like someone just not a children. I don't think most people think of ford to leave us time off.
Yeah. Maybe, did you know Accornable's fargo costco shoppers spend two hundred million dollars a month on gold. That is crazy.
Some of that must be because they want.
To go Yeah, right. Some of it also, gold has gone a lot more expensive, yeah, right.
Some of it is like gold hoarding for whatever reason. Some of it is correct financial speculation should just.
Be buying ETFs.
But you know something something about holding an actual gold.
Bar instead of.
If you want like gold, you want gold, you don't want ants, you're.
Actually tapping into like a very real tension.
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Sounds like it's attention you're familiar with.
Oh, I've I've encountered people who want to buy gold, but some people who buy gold from Costco are doing it for credit card.
Reward points and we're trying.
Or trying they're doing it for credit card reward points. But I wrote about this because the Most Journal had an article about Costco gold and it started with this guy who bought a lot of gold from Costco for credit card points and then he tried to resell it and he got less than he paid for it, and
I hate he was like, oh my Margins. You know, he was very sad, And I wrote in general, the great consumer financial arbitrage is like if you can buy a thing that you can resell for the same price you paid for it, and if you can put it on your credit card, then like you can get your credit card points, and you know, you have a sort of a perpetual motion machine where you can like manufacture credit card points without spending any money. And I said
something like this is the great consumer financial arbitrage. But it's hard to do because credit card companies are aware of this, right, and they try to crack down on it. And of course, my readers, is that something like a shudder to think of all the creddits that must all the subreddits that must exist about buying costco cold for credit card points. I got so many emails people are like, people like, this is how I manufacture credit card points.
Like a lot of people pointed out that in like twenty ten, the US Mint really wanted people to start using dollar coins because the dollar coin is like more cost effactor for the Mint than the dollar bill, and so they were like, we're going to be like Europe and transition to the dollar coin. And so they were like trying to encourage people to get and use dollar coins.
And one way they did that was they let you buy dollar coins like sacks of dollar coins for a dollar each with free shipping, which is they're heavy and you could do it on your credit card, and so people are like, I'm gonna buy one thousand dollar coins on my credit card. I'm gonna get ten dollars or twenty dollars of credit card rewards. They're gonna arrive at my house. I'm gonna put them directly in the card, drive them to the bank to positive in the bank,
paying my credit card bill with that. And so the US Mint did not get what it wanted, which was like circulating use of the dollar coins, because everyone was just taking them to the bank to pay their credit card bills. People got a lot of airline miles out of it. Eventually they shut it down.
But yeah, you know, and I.
Think the Mint was like losing money on each transaction.
Right because they I would imagine that they were.
The way credit card rewards work is that the seller pays a fee of one and a half percent to the credit card company. And so here the MINT is paying one and a half percent to the credit card company, which is giving it back to you in the form of airline models, and the Mint is losing one and a half cents on every dollar coin. Yeah, so eventually they shut that.
I will say, like reading the Wall Street Journal, article and then your column. I was thinking, I don't know, maybe these people just trying to flip it too fast. I mean gold prices, well, right.
With gold, you're not buying a dollar quint. Right with gold, you're buying a thing that could go up.
Yeah, it's been going up quite a bit over the past few months. But then I read there was an anecdote in the Wall Street Journal article about Luke Gribe. I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. He's of Southeast Michigan. He waited almost a decade to make a profit on his gold bar. He sold his one ounce credit sweet bar for twenty three hundred and fifty dollars in April. Not bad. That's after he paid fifteen hundred dollars for back in twenty fifteen. Was it worth it?
I feel like if you bought the smp'd have done. But yeah, the cold bar.
Yeah, it's a lot of thinking. I would just buy an ETF with a credit card. I don't know.
I do want to mention another credit card awards story, which, as you should somewhere you reminded of this. I actually wrote about it in the past. There's this I who's a experimental physicist and who was like, how can I build a perpetual motion machine? So he hit an Amex ames a lot of these credit cards. The way it works is like they pay like one percent cash back, but they give you like extra bonuses on certain categories of spending to like encourage you to use their card more.
And so Amex was giving him five percent cash back at grocery stores. So he'd get a grocery stores. He would buy gift card like Visa prepaid gift cards at the grocery stores, and he would get his five percent cash back on these Visa prepaid gift cards. He would take the gift cards and buy money orders. He would take the money orders and deposit them in his bank. He use the money in the bank to pay his
credit card bills. So it was just like a sort of like closed loop of exchanging money for money for money beautiful. And he got five percent on the credit card transactions. He had to pay a little bit for the gift card, he had to pay a little bit for the money orders, but all in all he made like three percent millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of prepaid gift cards. Like every time he went to the grocery store, he bought like all their gift cards.
He made I think three hundred thousand dollars of profit three hundred three hundred ten thousand dollars of profit. And then we know about this because the IRS wanted him to pay taxes in his games for this trade. And he was like, no, long standing IRS rules are that credit card cash back or just the discount. They're not income, they're just like reducing your expenses, and so you don't have to pay taxes on them. And he actually won
in tax card. So he had this like three hundred thousand dollars of arbitrage income that he didn't have to pay taxes on.
See that sounds more worth it than less than a thousand dollars over ten years.
Sure, cold is in some way and an efficient way to do it, because it's heavy, right. Gift cards are lighter, right, And so a lot of people find ways to buy cash equivalents on credit cards and then max that out as much as possible before the credit card company shuts it down.
I have two points here specifically on gold, not on credit cards. Okay, you make the point that gold is heavy, and it is heavy and actually in one of the articles, according to j M bullion, shipping fees can be as much as forty dollars for an ounce of gold, so it is expensive to ship it around, and then insurance on the shipping that's another forty dollars.
Gold is heavy, but an ounce of gold I think weighs an ounce.
Yeah, I know, but if you're shipping more than one ounce of gold, it's going to add up there.
Sure.
The other point is that we were talking about ETFs and gold ETFs. The largest gold etf is GLD, and it's been shipping fees, no shipping fees for gold ETFs. But the gold is in a vault underground in London, which I'm fascinated by. I would like to go to the vault, but you can't go to the vault as a journalist.
Okay, interesting, Yeah, but.
There are a lot I remember. Actually how we got there was because GLD skyrocketed and assets at one point during the pandemic. Everyone wanted it and it just grew so much, and there were a ton of conspiracy theories out there, probably on Reddit too, about whether they actually had the gold to back it up. Sure, but it's in London. Underground. But you can't go to the vault. None of us can go to the vault.
You here, how suspicious this ound. I know white people are buying gold bars at Costco rather than GLD.
It makes sense.
Then you have it.
Do you trust State Street? Apparently a lot of people didn't.
I do, because my life is integrated into the modern financial system. If I didn't trust the modern financial system and I wanted to own gold instead, I wouldn't want to own gold through State Street in a vault that, like crack reporter Katie Graefel couldn't even get into.
I did ask a stupid question at the time because assets in the CTF were going crazy, so they were having to buy a lot of gold. Well, I said, is there enough room in the vault? We're like, yes, of course, Like gold.
Is right, gold bar right.
So there's plenty of room in this spot.
It's like it's like a room this size, and it's just like a little pile on the corner.
I just always thought of greenots, and that's what I had in my mind.
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