Building Mining Behemoths from Acorns (Owen Hegarty)

Righto money miners, Here's a weekend special for you with one of the old school mining magnates which just goes perfectly with the new school open pit mining magnate. MMS are ready for a open pit contract yesterday. Gay people get in touch. Don't miss out on this early bird offer, you'd say. They told me mate, that, you know, they just have spare fleet there. They they don't want downtime. They're aligned.

Mate, they've got the fleet driving around the country at the moment just cause to statistically give themselves the best chance of getting it to your side as quick as possible. So mate, give them a buzz. JD. Mate, you've mate, you locked down a big dog while you're over east. We did mate. So Owen Hegarty is who this discussion is with and it's it's

a bit different. So I want to introduce it sort of appropriately 'cause we spend a lot of time discussing the, the sort of here and now, the markets where they're going in the future. But given our sort of relative youth, you could say I think there's a lot for us to learn. So thought it'd be a good opportunity to to speak with someone with a boatload of experience. And I think Owen sort of fits the bill perfectly.

He, he worked at Rio for 25 odd years, ended up heading the Asia part of their business as well as the Aussie copper gold part of the business. That is when the company was called CRA shortly before the the merger to become Rio Tinto. He then went to start Oxiana in 1995, which ultimately merged with Zinefx, which we chat about, which is what became Oz Minerals in sort of 2008 and onwards.

He then left, you know, in the in the interim, he joined the board at Fortescue, ultimately became the vice chairman at Fortescue. So he has done plenty of roles and then if that wasn't sort of enough in the early 20 tens, he started AMR Capital. Now people will know these guys as owners of Ravenswood, Kestrel, Bombay, amongst others, 29 Meadows, another name. They have done a number of deals, have raised 3 funds since they started in the early 20 tens. So plenty of experience for us

to sort of chip out. So we spent a lot of the conversation going through what he sort of learnt along that journey, some of the the ups and downs along the way and sort of lessons that we can kind of pull out in in our journey going forward. Interesting when you say the the links between what AM Rs got now and what Oxiana had like with Golden Grove and things like that. So Nah, very interested. It's going to be a Ripper JD. Good work sunshine. Let's RIP it, aye?

Let's go. Owen Hegarty, thanks for making the time and coming on money of mine. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity, John. It's lovely to be here. The the first question I've got to ask you is one that I sort of came about in in my research, listening to a podcast you've done a couple years ago, you called Melbourne the mining capital of the world. And I think a few people in Perth might pick a fight with

this comment. Do you still sort of feel the way you know, feel that way 30-40 years after starting your career here? Definitely still, I mean, not so much the capital of the world, but the capital of the universe. Jonas is, is Melbourne. Bearing in mind that we started it all here about 170 years ago. I was a very young fellow at the time, of course, but this was the, this was the gold rushes, remember back in the 1850s or thereabouts.

So that's how a lot of the, the surplus that was grown from mining here in Victoria, a lot of the institutions started at that time and then it developed out into other areas. But that's why you still find that BHP is headquartered here, for example, because that's where it all began in a way. And as I say, a lot of the a lot of the surplus and the Melbourne Mining Club, Jonas is a very big institution here. So we get plenty of people coming to that.

But of course, yes, it has moved more to Perth. Some of my best friends actually come from Perth Jonas, so definitely much more a centre these days. Well. We can, we can take that argument offline and keep going with that one, but we'll keep going. I want to dig into, you know, a lot of your experience, you've spent a lot of time in the, in the mining industry and then get into some of the deals you've done here at AMR and everything's sort of in between

and looking forward. But I want to go go back, go back a few years to what was CRA, what became Rio Tinto, where you started your career some time ago. And I want to hear about the sort of entrepreneurial culture, how you sort of see it at that time. A lot of people make the criticism of these majors that it kind of stifles the entrepreneurial kind of spirit. But you know, you've clearly shown through your career that you've you've got that and it wasn't stifled at CRA.

What was it like working at that organisation at that time? And how does it sort of differ from how you see company nowadays? Well, very interesting and but a very broad question of course. So yes, going all the way back to the Rio Tinto days. No worries. I mean, I, I spent 2425 years with Rio Tinto, pretty much all their companies, all their countries and all their commodities. So, so very lucky actually to have that sort of span of career with the Rio Tinto.

Wonderful company, wonderful people and A and A and a wonderful culture. One of the things that I thought about Rio was, you know, with, with, with hindsight and, and with some present sight whilst I was working there was they really had a, a very strong growth and entrepreneurial bent. So it wasn't just a businesses as usual. It was very much a growth orientation and and entrepreneurial people there all the way up, up and down the the chain going all the way back in fact to Saval Duncan.

Would you believe now that goes back a long, long time as the chairman of Rio Tinto and I was lucky enough to, to be in London and working for Rio when, when Val was in charge effectively as the, as the executive chairman of the company.

So he had that entrepreneurial bent it, it actually came through in the into the Rio Tinto CRA, people here in, at Rio Tinto CRA in Melbourne, the really, really wonderful people like Sir Roderick Carnegie, John Ralph, many of the leaders of Rio Tinto had that growth entrepreneurial orientation. So what, what are some of the, the assets you, you worked at like you mentioned you spent sort of 24 years there.

You ultimately became the managing director of Rio Asia as well as the the copper and gold assets as I sort of understand in, in Australia. Can you can you run through some of the projects and mines you sort of operated at through that period? Yes, well, I think. Probably the the main break if you like, if you want to call that in inside Rio Tinto, I mean as I had a lot, a lot of different areas and so on, just terrific, terrific people,

terrific background. So very lucky really in a way. But then the last several years of my so called career there, if you like was with in the Asian area. So we were developing new markets, we were developing new businesses in the Asian region and that and that came about. It was is very much a a push and a drive by Sir Rod and others on

the board at that time. And John Ralph in was in the senior management ranked to build our businesses in Asia because that's where the growth was clearly going to come from or was clear to some at that time that maybe not clear to to others type of thing. And I think that we got on the front foot, we got on the front foot with Kamalka. We got on the front foot with our our lid and zinc businesses. We got on the front foot with our copper business.

So, so we were looking to not only grow our markets there, but to grow our business in that part of the world, which would ultimately buy products from, from Australia and from other sources of, of metals and, and materials from other Rio Tinto Group places, if you like. So, so that's, and, and I was part of that campaign, if you like. That took on on for a long time there.

And, and in, in a way, it was very successful, not very much, you know, attributable to me, but some of The Pioneers there did a, did an amazing job in terms of actually getting involved in businesses, getting involved in that market development activity. And you could literally see the

countries growing there. Jonas, we're talking about, we're talking about Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, Indonesia, Taiwan, Korea, Japan was continuing to develop and, and China, of course, just starting to open up. So really very exciting times and probably the most, you know, luckiest break if you like that I had a lot of time in that part of the world and a lot of time with with those businesses. So that was a that to me was an important step to actually be

part of that. So that that Asia component is a sort of big feature in your career. Is that, is that something you sought out, you wanted to experience, you know that part of the world the the culture there operating, doing business in in these parts of the world or is it more Rio wanted to expand there and they sort of said, hey, I want to either the man for the job, do you want to go over there? How did that sort of all come

about? Well, it was a drive from Rio Tinto. And then of course it became a personal drive in a way that you could actually see the long strong demand for all of the metals and commodities that we were involved in and other metals and commodities that we weren't involved. Rio. It had a bit of a pause there in terms of some of the things that it was actually doing and copper and, and base metals.

And, and around about the same time, I saw the opportunity to get involved in our own business outside of Rio Tinto, getting involved in a business growing on the, on the strength of the growth in Asia in, in all of those markets, sourcing materials from Australia and other parts of the world and being involved in mining, not only in, in the existing and more established mining centres, but in those Asian mining

centres. And that's what that's when that's effectively how we started Oxiana, got it, got involved in, you know, Asia Pacific base and precious metals with, with a, with Australia and Asia. So let's let's tap into that. Then you leave in the the early 90s CRA which later merges by that time you're managing director of Oxiana sort of 1995 period as I kind of understand it. What is that first five years

like there? So the the second mine comes online in 2000, but you know, you're doing something quite entrepreneurial. Why did you decide to leave and, you know, talk us through that those sort of early days? OK. Well, that's well I, I, I'd spent 2425 years with Rio Tinto, they were, they were having a bit of a pause if you like in terms of the basement and and

precious metals areas. So I saw the opportunity because the growth was continuing in Asia and the growth for for copper are the base and precious metals of the aluminium, whether it was zinc, whether it was lead, whether other a nickel, whether all of those things continuing. So I saw the opportunity to to jump out and put together capital, put together people, people that I actually work with inside Rio Tinto and begin our own journey in the Mighty Ox.

And you know the we grew up, we grew a company there from a few $1,000,000 to a few billion dollars. As I say to people, the overnight success that took about 15 years or thereabouts from the, from the mid 90s to the, the mid 2000s and late 2000s type of thing. So it was really just the opportunity to be able to do that. Now what, what was it like? It was never simple, never easy leaving the mothership to go out sort of pretty much on your own, you know, with, yes, with

friends and family support. So never simple, never easy doing that. And those first five years, that's what you, you asked the first five years. Well, it was really quite hard work. I mean, you spend your whole, your whole day, your whole week, your whole life actually out there talking to people about what you, what you're looking to do, talking to people about your assets, raising funds to actually keep doing the work on those assets and, and doing your day job all at the same time.

As I say to people at, at the smaller, smaller resources, entrepreneurial in you spend 100% of your time talking to people about your company. You spent 100% of your time raising money to do the things that you're talking about. And you and you spend 100% of your time doing your day job. So you know it's a. It's a big task. Did you, did you ever sort of think in that period maybe it would have been easier just hanging on it, had it pretty

good at Rio? Well, there were plenty of times, Jonas, during that, the first five to 10 years that I thought, well, maybe I, you know, should have stayed at the mothership a bit longer, but not really.

Look, we were going quite well. I had good encouragement and support from friends and family, had very good support from all of those things that we were doing, the businesses that we were getting involved in. And the main one of those, of course was in in Laos in the, you know, People's Democratic Republic of Lao up there, you know, South of China and, and to the east of Thailand and the West of Vietnam.

So in that, that particular corner there in Indochina and it was a Rio project and, and we thought probably a bit too small and bit too, bit too far away for Rio, for Rio. So we, we got involved and that became our our flagship if you like to you know in gold 1st and then into copper and we grew the business based on that very good foundation up. So a lot sort of starts coming together in that, that mid 2000s

period. You probably just got 7 as you sort of just described by 2004. You consolidate prominent Hill, you do a deal with with Minotaur in 2005, you buy Golden Grove just to go back to the, the Asia bull market. Is there a point in time where you, you really were able to point to and say, you know, this what's happening in China is, is quite something else. This is going to last for a really sustained period and it's going to materially change the the mining businesses across Australia.

Well, it was around about that, that time you remember there was a Asian financial crisis at the end of the 90s. So that that again, you know, that was a that that sort of held everybody back around about that time. So it was tough enough actually getting things done. And then the Asian financial crisis, so you know, you had you had banks and and debt markets and equity markets in difficulty countries were you know, the Asian countries themselves are obviously pause in terms of growth.

But at the same time you did see that underlying current of strong growth, particularly from China and and at the same time you've got Taiwan, you've got Korea, got Japan. So that NE Asian complex was continuing to grow and supply goods out into the whole Western mark. So Asian financial crisis didn't last for for too long type of

thing. But it was around about that time, the turn of the effectively the turn of the century, if you like that you that it was starting to become very clear and evident that there was, you know, it was going to be stronger for longer here. You know that you did see that you could see that growth coming and you know then the next 20 years or or thereabouts, you've seen everybody get on board that superhighway of economic growth and prosperity or looking to get on board.

There's still plenty of countries that are looking to continue to grow. So it was really during that time we had the, we started the operation there in Laos. We were building the, we built the gold mine and was operating very well. We expanded the gold mine. We got involved in the, in the copper mine. Needed something in Australia. Remember that we're in the People's Democratic Republic of Laos here.

It's not that well known in this part of the world, not that well known to to ASX investors, not that well known to worldwide investors. So despite the fact that it was actually going very well, that's the the good thing about it. So we needed the, we needed something in Australia or nearby, something a bit more familiar, which is, as you say, how we got involved with the project in South Australia.

The prominent hill ultimately built that mine that was the the the mine that had the seven to eight year life to begin with and will now go for 37 or 48 years or or thereabouts. So did a did a terrific job there, the whole team putting all that together. And then we bought closely on that golden Grove and, and here in Australia and. Multiple other acquisitions over time, but they were the. That was the time around about the turn of the early part of

the 2000s. If you like a good strong growth, good, good pricing, some good, some good luck, you know, and some breaks. And and a couple of, you know, some good people in the in the firm and some good decisions, put it that way. So put put all of those things together, Jonas gave us that the, you know, the key SuccessFactors to be able to build the business.

Just to go deeper on accumulating the the assets there, there's sort of differing views out there about the revenue diversification across commodities that that a company should kind of have. And I guess this one kind of changes over time. A lot of people point to to copper today and these guys, you know, trading on premium multiples. If they're not, you know, within a diversified miner, how do you kind of think about that?

Was that always the ambition to have a bit of gold, have a bit of copper, have other base metals, zinc and lead just to build that sort of diversification and, you know, rigidity within the business or did that just sort of come about organically? Well, I think I think bit of a

combo. You know, we, we, we, we had a vision and, and of course as you build the business, your vision tends to expand somewhat over time depending on your, the, the capability of the assets that you have and, and the people and the support group that you, you have. OK. So we started very clear vision. We're going to build this gold mine, you know, and then we're going to expand the gold mine. Now we're going to add the copper mine because we were copper and gold people.

We saw, you know, we saw that gold was was going to continue to perform because it outperformed everything else up until that time. And we saw copper going to continue to perform because of its diversity of uses, if you like, in terms of, of copper, red gold, we called it at the time. So you know, you, you've got,

you've got 2 very good metals. But but then outside of that you wanted, we wanted to add others including nickel and and zinc, say, so sort of Basian Basin precious metals We're the. Bulk commodities, whether it was coal, whether it was iron ore, really. Had to come next, let's let's build this basin precious metals business and and then perhaps go to diversified later because Janice in in answer to your question, we we saw a long term future for a good scale mining

company. Mining and minerals processing company to be, you know, reasonably well diversified, didn't want to focus only on basin precious metals. We thought we should add to that metallurgical coal, for example. And iron ore, in fact, ultimately because of the steel industry. Growth potential and and you know the. The steel industry as you as you know as well as I do has actually grown enormously over the past 2 1/2 decades. So type of thing. So it's very much horses for courses.

You got to focus on those things that you've got in hand. You've got to have the vision and it's really a step by step approach. And that's that's where we wanted to take this business because we think that long term shareholder value in a mining company is grown by taking it all the way down. Now that's the BHPS, that's the Rio Tintos, that's the Anglos, that's the Glencos. They're, they're those big guys, long term sustainable high return businesses. That's where we were taking the

company. I swore he was just about to mention MMTS then when he was talking about long term sustainable high return businesses. Jay's didn't that come into that's when they're talking FMG Rio badge pay. I'll just MMTS same sort of same definition. Yeah, rolls off the tongue. The OG of mining title compliance in all Australian jurisdictions. I I'll just repeat that. All Australian jurisdictions, right cut.

It reminds me that I think we've done it before, that Wolf of Wall Street thing like cutting edge land monitoring systems for finding new title application opportunities across Australia, similar to what was it called. Aero. Aero time, that's. The one that's the one. Yeah, pretty much the equivalent of that, but not a penny stock. So mate, they are that good. MMTS are doing this. They know in advance via telepathic messages where the mining owners are even considering not renewing a title

or selling one. Every corner of the country, every corner. Up here it's just messages coming in but. You know how valuable a mine is if you don't have title to it. It's not valuable. Good for nothing. Good for nothing. Industry leaders. You give either Helen or Shannon a call and be to just be prepared to be impressed, Yeah, by their awesomeness. Feel it is go MMTS.

You beauty. So come 2008, you know, it's been a, been a hell of a 13 or 14 years and you, you announced this big deal sort of headline $12 billion merger Oxiana and Zen Effects coming together in March of 2008. So the beginning of, you know, what ultimately became a volatile year all around the world. But I'm keen to tap into doing a deal like that.

So I was reading some articles in the AFR and the Australian from the time and this talk that this deal took, you know, over a year to kind of piece together what what was sort of crafting that deal like and what are the the underweighted factors in doing a deal of that sort of magnitude. Yes. Well, again, it was as you say, it's a volatile period. So it was a pretty tough time.

But we saw the just going back to my point about the diversification, we think you've got to get got to get bigger and you've got to be more diversified. There were multiple opportunities for us at the time to do that. We had a number of organic opportunities and we were pursuing those and we had the had the wherewithal to be able to do that.

But we thought there were some inorganic, some acquisitive type opportunities again with with diversity into into the bulk commodities and with diversity into both into. Base and precious metals so so actually. The the, the merger with Zinefx of about the same size was a whilst you say it took 12 months or so to do because the GFC sort of got in the way a bit there, but it was, it was one step in the road to a bigger, wider diverse vision that we had for the company. So it.

Was one step. It had, you know, world class operations and it had a very good growth profile itself. We knew the people, we knew the industry were very comfortable with all of all of those things. So, so it was a it was a marriage that or a merger that was actually going to be relatively straightforward in terms of putting the companies and the people and the projects and the synergies and so on together. What?

What? It didn't become straightforward because of the the GFC just interrupted the whole process, you know, unfortunately. But then, but the pieces were picked up and and and it went on to be very successful in in back, back into two companies, MMG and and OZ mineral. So I mean all all of. Those things ultimately worked, but they got sort of interfered with if you like during the GFC.

But, but in answer to your question, Jonas, it was really part of a a strategy to put together multiple commodities because we think long term value is grown by having a good diverse strength to put those multiple commodities together over a period of time. You don't do it simply, you don't do it easily. You don't do it real fast. Time and you've got to take the opportunities as they come to you and you can actually create them. So it it does take time to put all of that together.

So one of the big factors at that time was that credit markets just really locked up. And as you sort of mentioned before we spoke, you know, bankers wouldn't even pick up the phone. And this this became a, a real tough point for what became Oz Minerals that the merged entity there with, you know, the refinancing of the debt hitting a, you know, hitting a hump in the road. Having experienced that and, and looking back with with hindsight, how do you think about the debt levels within a

mining organisation? Not necessarily like technicals EBITDA times, you know net debt levels, but how do you kind of think more holistically about the leverage with inside a mining business having lived through that period? Yes. Well, look, I think it's. It's very much horses for courses. I mean at, at the time of course of the of the GFC, you know, as you say you, you couldn't get the banks to answer the phone,

they weren't responding. It was very difficult to whether it was a refinance, whether it was a deferral, whether it was whether it was really some elementary questions that you wanted to, you know, talk to them about it. It was just a very, very difficult time. And it wasn't as if the company was in any way shape or form over leverage. The the debt levels were relatively modest relative to as you say EBITDA multiples and various other things at the time.

It's just that one or two were coming due so as to speak and that just made it a bit awkward from the very, very short term. So how do we think about it? Well, we think about it pretty much the same way as everybody else does. Got to, it's got to be. Within your means so as to speak. I mean you must. You must always be considering leverage to ensure that you provide the right returns to your.

Equity shareholders, but it's got to be within your means, whether you call that modest levels or reasonable levels or five times EBITDAR or two times or whatever, whatever, you know with hedging, without hedging, long term, short term working capital, whatever sort of metrics and and so on that you want to put around it. You, you, you're always thinking of, of those sorts of things and you're always.

Looking at it with one eye on, well, you know, the future, we're talking about interest rates, what's the Fed going to do, what's the RBA going to do? So you're always looking at those things and your finance team always looking at it, always looking from the from the point of view of what are the requirements of the business. Going forward, in other words, what cash flows do you need? To.

Continue to grow your business. What cash flows do do you want to ensure that your shareholders are rewarded? And you know, debt is an important part of all that. And by the way, of course those debt markets come and go a bit too. You know, whether it's the bond market or the OR the banking market and so on, as well as the equity markets do go up and down.

Or. The availability of of equity, it's one thing to say, well, yes, we think we can, we should be putting some debt on this particular project, but it's not available, you know so or. You'd like to put more equity, but that's not available. So you know, you've got to go with the with the flow a bit from time to time as well. And that's another reason, Jones, another reason to

actually be diversified. In other words, get get into metals and commodities that do give you that sort of diversity. And, and arrange where people will say, well, we like to have some gold in the portfolio because it's a hitch, you know, when things are tough, people, people will, you know, there's a flight to gold so as to speak. So always good to have some of that in the portfolio, so to speak.

Steel industry met coal and and iron ore, you know the the whole information technology communications and and electrical and energy transition industries met all of those be in copper so. That that's the sort of very high level strategic. Thinking if you like? Well, you can't get any more bloody high level and strategic than CRE insurance broking services can you boys? Not at all mate, mate. I was talking to Tari the other

day and holy snap and duck shit. There is some thought from the CRE crew that goes into protecting mining companies and mining services companies from risk. Tell me. Oh mate, the I won't tell you, I'll get them to tell you because mate, the office still stands, doesn't it? A free review of your existing insurance policies. If you're a mining company, mining services provider, there might be gaps, you don't know.

Doesn't matter if you own the mine, you want to service the mine, you need good insurance, you need CRE to broke the policies for you for Australia, Africa or anywhere in the bloody. World how often do we see surprises to the downside in in releases mate? Well guess what? I'm pretty sure the best people to to to price that risk the underwriters. So get in touch with CR insurance and sort it.

Out mate, if you want to put out a positive ISX announcement because you had a sensational insurance policy and you want like which could be share price accretive, it's only going to happen if CRE broke it for you. It's the the unknown unknowns that are really scary and you have a chat with these guys, they know every single in and out of the insurance game. Just get them to run their eyes over your report and you'll be.

You will feel more comfortable. Just turn insurance into a positive, That's it. We know positive insurance stories out there. CRE are going to deliver it. Go CRE. So at at a personal level by the end of 2008 you're leaving Oz Minerals with a few other things on the on the horizon. But there was a sort of publicised termination payment that didn't get voted through at the AGM. Was that disappointing from the perspective you've been at the company sort of 14 years, you'd

LED it for a long time. Was it sort of understandable in the light of everything that had gone on, as we sort of just discussed? How did you feel about that at the time? Look, I think it's a bit unfortunate timing, you might say. I mean right in the middle of the of the global financial crisis, when, when equity markets have been smashed, I mean countries have been smashed, commodities have been smashed, companies have been smashed.

Individuals have been smashed. So, so asking for approvals for anything. And of course you have to, if you're making payments to directors, various other things, you know, whether they're termination, whether they're, you know, your accumulated leave, whatever, whatever it is that you're asking for, you're always going to get a bit of a, you know, a negative response out there. So it was probably more unfortunate timing than anything

else really, I mean. You know, at that time, not, not, not a great time, but you know, you, you've got a, you know, from out of adversity comes opportunity as far as I was concerned, that's always been my attitude to it. So. We we we grew back and the companies sailed off and and did did very well and then between myself and my partners and verse other people, we actually got.

We got into other businesses, we got it, got into other things, so we sort of recoup, recovered, refreshed and re emerged. That's a real stand out feature. What you just mentioned there something I really noticed digging in into the sort of experiences you've had that the same names keep popping up in and around you, whether that be from your Rio Tinto days to your Oxiana days through to your EMR days.

And I, you know, from the outside, I think that's quite an admirable trait to, to work with people for for so long. What's the kind of, you know, thinking that? Have you just got a good group of people that you enjoy working with? Are there are there secrets? Is it a bit of a you know, and fro at times?

How do you think about it? Well, look, the way I think about it is very lucky, you know, very lucky to have had the so called career, if you like, in terms of Rio Tinto and the Ox and various other things I've been involved in, including, you know, the mighty EMR that we are today.

And very lucky to have been associated with some amazing people and some of whom are still, you know, with us and, and working with us and so on. So I've always, you know, had a great admiration for their capabilities and you know, without them in a way we wouldn't have had the the things that we've been able to achieve over that period of time. So that's the way I think about I think that they are, you know, we're part of team, nothing more powerful really than people

working together in teams. You know, you, you see that, we see that. And, and it's so important in, you know, what we've been through, particularly those volatile periods. I mean, the the team really, really comes together, you know, when things are, when things are a bit on the top side. So you know that that's been terribly important, terribly important to me in terms of survival, but terribly important to them too in terms of all of

those people working together. So it's, it's not as if it's a team of 25 players. You know, it's a team of a few people, including Tony Manini or Jason Chang and, and various others that we've worked with over the last 2025, thirty years. And, and as I say Jonas, I've also been, you know, lucky enough to work with a whole range of wonderful people in various areas, whether it's in Rio Tinto, CRA, FMG, for example, and, and all of the other sort of industry groupings, if you like, around.

So not just the companies per SE, but also the advisory groups and the the Mets, you know, the mining equipment, technical services people and so on. So I feel, I feel very lucky that I've had that experience and, you know, still. Working with them. But another group you've worked with is Fortescue Metals. You joined as a non exec director in late 2008, eventually became the the vice chairman there. What what was that like?

I was reading presentations, you know, last night about Fortescue from 2008 and it's, it's remarkable the, the speed at which things were built, put together, you know, put on a ship and send is sort of mind blowing. And you just really wonder whether you can do something like that today. But what was it like, you know, to at a board level, obviously there was some, some brushes as well when markets got tight. What how did you sort of see

your role there? Can you sort of speak to the experience overall in that sort of entrepreneurial culture that they have? Well, look very interesting and very exciting. No, no question about that from 2008. And we, we, we were back in 2008 just 5 minutes ago and it was a pretty tough time, right?

So, so I came on the board then as a non executive director and I spent eight or nine years there all the way through to vice chairman and, and it was a, it was a, you know, challenging time, but remember, China was still growing and growing very fast, right? So yes, there was the GFC and that impacted every country on the, on the planet, But but China came back very, very strongly and FMG was growing at

the time. FMG was dedicated pretty much entirely at that time to the China market and it and it was, you know, pretty adverse conditions in terms of the competitiveness of the industry at that time. But very good support from China, very good support from all of the customers in that part of the world to be able to continue to grow the business now.

And, and, and Andrew just an amazing entrepreneur, amazing vision and, and foresight and an amazing Australian really the way he's been able to build that business. But, but also same, same in terms of teams. We're talking about teams a bit bit earlier. I mean, people in that team would apart from Andrew, which is just amazing. Nevada Power as the, as the CEO, Peter MERS as the development director, Stephen Pearce as the,

as the CFO. So just a terrific group of people at that senior management level. And then then the board, you know, you've got the people of the of the capability of Ian Burstyn, of of Herb Elliott, Elizabeth Gaines, Mark Barnabas. So these people just fantastic. And the and it was. It was also. A very clear focus, Jonas, This is, you know, this, this is what we're going to do. Well, I know. You know, we're in these these tenements and these mines.

Here's the vision. These are the things that we're going to do over this period of of time. We've got a. Very good market position and we're we've got very good teamwork and we've got very good culture and we will move at the speed of light, if not faster if we have to. And that was the that was the type of culture that that was had. And we're able to do it now. You know, you've got to have a

bit of luck along the way. Of course, you've got to have the wind behind you at at certain times, but we're able to bounce. We're able to get through some of those difficult times and of course build it is whatever the. Number is the $50 billion, a $100 billion company you know from, you know, small icons. So you're not sort of sitting still at the same time you're. Building EMR 2011, 2012 Start raising that first fund. What? What is fundraising for a mining private equity group?

There wasn't many of them at the time. There's still not too many of them.

What was that like? Well, look, again, never simple, never easy, but you've got to have the the right group of people, you've got to be going to the right markets and you've got to have a good sort of, if you like vision, a culture and pipeline, you've got to have a good pipeline of things that you are looking at that you've got an option on or something that you've done a lot of work on to be able to show people that these are the things that that we want to get on with.

You know, so doesn't mean you have to do all of them, but you want to be able to show them all of that. And and of course I think we were coming off during that early part of the 2000 and 10s there that sort of second decade we're coming off, you know, the oil and gas business in the US was going very well. Most of our limited partners were American limited partners. So that's where most of the capital came from at the that direct capital they had a

surplus from. Oil and gas, they're looking to get into mining. They didn't have a lot of mining exposure. They're very familiar with the private equity model, whether it was oil and gas or or other things. So, you know, again, we were good timing, good luck and a very, very good pitch pack and a very good team of people with a good strong track record.

Jones. They, they were the sort of the key features, if you like, and a very clear focus on those things that we wanted to invest in. You know, we didn't want to be all things to all people. We wanted to focus on the, you know, the copper, the gold, the base and precious metals in that area. We wanted to focus on metallurgical coal as part of the whole steel business. And we wanted to focus on potash, which was as part of the whole food, you know, fertiliser dynamic, thematic dynamic, you

know, long term type of thing. So, so a focus, a vision, good clear people, good track record and I and and great networking and relationships, particularly in the Asian region where where the growth was and continues to be. So you, you mentioned good timing there. And that's, that's a really interesting one because you know, you're, you raised ultimately 3 funds now and you know, the timing is different at each point.

And this is one of the critiques, if you like, of, of mining private equity is that you have to get the timing right. It makes the repeatability hard, but the timing, you know, like you said, didn't that turn out quite good. You picked up a lot of assets in that sort of 151617 period when commodity markets were, you know in in the doldrums a bit. How do you think about repeating that given, you know, a lot of it's dependent on the cycles of the commodities? Yes, well, again.

The usual story, never simple, never easy. All the usual risks are sort of available to you. All the pitfalls and and and risks of our industry, if you like and cyclicity and volatility, all of those things are sort of available to you and and it's impossible to get the timing absolutely right. So you know, but but as I say, as long as you've. Got that that strength. Of your people and background and experience. And and focus and persistence is, is another part of that,

right? I mean, if you miss it, if you miss it 1, you know, cycle or year, then you have to, you know, have to have sufficient continuity and longevity to be able to pick it up next time around. So I think I think good. Assets and good people will survive all of that. So you've got to, you've got to stick with that thematic and, and be persistent about it type of thing. So again, use your story, you've

actually got to get out there. You got to sell your wares, you got to spend all of that time telling people about your story and the, and the rewards are there for sure. You know, so you can't get absolutely everything right, That's for sure. As I say, you need some good luck as well as some good timing, but it's it's usually. Lots of very good hard work that actually sees sees off everything. So I want to talk about a number

of the deals you've now done. So in that in that period you picked up Kestrel, It's the first one I'm keen to talk about Queensland cooking coal asset. A lot has happened since you you picked that up in that period. You know, the most, you know, the stand out feature to me is the change in royalty regime in Queensland. How do you how do you think about that new set and the government sort of, you know, changing the goal posts if you like? Yes, OK. Well, look, Kestrel was a, a Rio

Tinto asset. So we, we, we knew of course Rio Tinto obviously and we knew the asset we wanted to get involved in metallurgical coal. We, we knew that when, when one of the bigger companies is looking to sell over, over a period of time, well, you know, you know that some of these assets will, will just not get the capital, they won't get the attention, they won't get the management and so on.

So it's a, in a way, it's a bit of a happy hunting ground for people like ourselves so that we're private equity or building this or that, that. So you can you maintain that those relationships and obviously pay the right price then then you can see significant upside there. And and we saw that in terms of it had a very long life.

So you're not dealing with something that was all going to be over in the next four or five years, very long life you have to 25 and much, much beyond that years. So you had time to do the work and we saw that the capability of the team, the capability of the equipment and and the market, if you like, for that particular call was in very good shape. So all of those things we saw and that's why we got involved and we were able to increase

production, reduce costs. I mean, we're not a, we're not a slash and burn, slash burn and churn type firm. You know, you the best way to increase or to reduce costs is, is increased volume that'll get the that'll get the unit cost down, so to speak. So, so it was actually very successful from that perspective and, and still is and, and operating very well doesn't mean you don't go go through a few

humps and bumps along the way. The bump, the bump that you refer to in terms of royalty rates going up very significantly, definitely an issue. And, and you've only got to look at the charts from whether it's BHP or Anglo in the, in the public domain to see the sort of imposition that, that royalty is in terms of their all in sustaining costs. You know, it's, it's one thing to have your, you know, your people and your, your labour and your equipment and the energy that you need.

And they're the remain operating costs, if you like. And on top of that, you've got a very, very, very high royalty regime at this time. Of course, we're going to be paying royalties wherever we are. There's not, not an issue, but you know, this is a, this is a serious imposition. And well, you've, what do you do? I mean, at City Hall at the end of the day, of course, you, you go there and, and present and, and represent in terms of what it can and it can't do.

But you know what that really can and can't do. But at the end of the day, that's the regulator and you got to follow them. You got to follow the regular.

So what it puts the weights back on you than to, you know, drive your, your cost base, you know, down to increase your volumes and, and probably to look at other not, not so much other commodities, but if you want to remain in that commodity, look at other destinations, you know, that have suddenly have become more competitive because of the sort of fiscal regime has changed. So I've not been a rambling answer there to that question on on, on Kestrel and royalties.

But I should say that is a, it's a package operation that's one of the best, most productive long wall, underground long wall operations in not in not only in the Bowen Basin in Queensland, but in the world. So, you know, we're very proud. So how do you think about selling it then? Well, we are private equity. So at the end of the day, one way or another, you know, we need to, we need to sell, we need to, you know, transition out if you like it at some point

in time. So the so the funds that we have. Is is not permanent capital, it's 10 year capital with with extensions, I mean with with your LP shareholder approval you can extend but but you don't. Really want to extend? You want to be able to get involved in an asset. Make your improvements and then

and then ultimately get out. So that's, that's what we that's what we prefer to do. And and there'll be a time coming for Kestrel. So to, to move to another asset rule, Bombay is a copper asset in Zambia that you picked up a number of years ago, since sold out a big state in conjunction with cobalt metals who are doing something a bit interesting with, with AI trying to improve their expiration targeting and

these sorts of things. Is that something you've spent a long time looking at understanding? Yes, well, we've actually sold it 100%. So just just coming back, just Jonas just coming back to the Bambi, the we. We got involved there 5-6 something years ago in Zambia, always thought Zambia, Zambia terrific place by the way, in the copper belt on the, the, the, the, the, the junction there the border between Zambia and the DRC. So you know the world famous.

Copper belt people been mining. There for a very long period. Of time La Bambi was wasn't the biggest mine, but wasn't the smallest mine in the copper belt was owned by. Valet and African Rainbow, they wanted to get out. They that that particular venture wasn't working out for them. We saw it as an opportunity not only to get that existing mine going well, in other words, hitting targets, getting the drum beat and beating out.

It's 30 to 40,000 tonnes per annum of copper, but also to do the work on the deeper what we call the extension ore body. We're talking several 100 million tonnes of very high grade copper. It hadn't been drilled out. No real studies have been done on it. We saw that was an opportunity to grow very significant value. That extension ore body ultimately the was renamed the Mingomba Ore body and that's now owned by Cobalt Metals out of the US and and ZCCM. The government company there.

And the mine so that, that we've split the, the project from the existing mine itself, the, the mine itself is now owned mainly by JCSX, the contractor, the mining contractor there. The game we know very well they've been working with us for years and years out there between them. And again, ZCCM, the government entity is also a shareholder, minority shareholder and that so.

So you've got the mine. Sort of 8020, something like that JCHXZZZM and then you've got the Mingomba rule body, which again is 8020 cobalt metals, cobalt metals, very good people. They've done an amazing job with the exploration technology, you know, badging as as AI. They've raised significant funds and, and they've, they've, they've paid us for that project for the Mingomba.

Project and they're working very hard drilling it out getting getting increasing resources, increasing reserves, getting all of the relevant studies done and growing very significant value. Yes, it's a. It's a. Bit deeper orebody there starts at about 1000 metres or thereabouts, but very, very high grade and in the copper belt. So you've got a got established infrastructure workforce, a

social licence. So we provided them with effectively with the social licence to operate there given the all of the work we did at the mine and and that particular project. So that they are pretty well good to go. They've still got work to do there and getting the studies done, but then that mine will

definitely ultimately be built. So to, to bring us a bit closer to home, Ravenswood is another asset you picked up not, not all that long ago in, in 2020 from Resolute in a, in a consortium to buy off Resolute that's now had, you know, four years of investment output has expanded significantly at the asset. And it's, you know, in more broader terms, not a bad time to, to own a gold mine. How do you think about selling

that one? Is this one that's going to, you know, only play out in a number of years time or is that something in the back of your mind already? Well, look, Ravenswood was, has been. You know, good success story. No, no question about that. But again, the usual story with these things, Jones, nothing simple, nothing's easy. Everything has its humps and

bumps along the way. So as to speak in our industry tends to follow us. Around so yes, we bought it during COVID and and we to end of 2019, so 2020 yes, we closed it. And we spent these last four years and several $100 million, you know, expanding and improving that operation up to, you know, well north of 200,000 oz per annum capable. Queensland's largest gold mine. In fact, we've, we've created it there just to the South of Townsville going going back into history.

We bought it from Resolute and, and you know, various payments over a period of time, some of which are are still to come to Resolute. Resolute was very, very focused on West Africa doing the London listing and so on. So Ravenswood wasn't going to get any capital. And so we saw it as an opportunity to inject Syria's capital and and grow that business. And we got it right. In terms of gold, clearly, you know, I mean, good as gold, as they say.

I was talking a bit earlier about the early 2000s when we were looking, we sold gold at $220.00 an ounce. That is now more than 10 times that, you know, 20 years later. So that's a terrific, terrific return. Gold is always going to be in long strong demand. You know, it's a commodity, it's a currency, it's a store of value. It's a hedge against geopolitical and financial uncertainties and so on. So you want to be as long as strong as you possibly can in

gold. At the same time, of course we are a private equity firm. So we need to actually continue to turn over assets so we can go again back to the market and look to get another fund so as to speak. So if the, if the asset is at it's where we where we wanted to drive it to in terms of volume, in terms of costs, in terms of exploration upside and and potential and so on, then it's, you know, then of course it's, it's available.

I mean, actually whether it's available or not, we've got plenty of people join us knocking on the door looking to buy it because it is, it's a quality operation in terms of tonnes grade resources, reserves, all in sustaining costs. And it's right there just to the South of Townsville. I mean, it's not in the middle of absolute nowhere type of thing. It's a really good place to operate anyway, That's that's that's how we think about Ravenswood at this time.

So another group of assets you picked up in that mid 2010 period was Capricorn Copper Golden Grove asset out in, in Chile as well. These, you know, the, the two Aussie assets come together in what's now 29 medals ASX listed. Obviously people will be familiar with that one. I want to dive into the, the exit sort of strategy. So that was listed in 2021 and EMA maintained a, a decent stake in the business, which it still holds to this day. How is the sort of thinking there changed?

Would you do anything different with with hindsight? Look. Yeah. The, the, the vision there was to take those 3 assets, put them together and form 29 metals. We thought that was the best strategy at the time in terms of in terms of exit, so.

You've got Golden Grove operating in WA, you've got, you've got Capricorn Copper operating in Queensland, you've got a Chilean asset Chile, you know, still the world's largest premier copper producing countries, a great, great region with plenty of upside over there. So, so we thought the, the, the whole would be better than the sum of the parts, if you like, in terms of putting all of that

together. And, and the market was calling for, you know, publicly listed copper as and still is, you know, still still calling for them. OK. So we, we thought the best path at that time was, was to do that. And, and generally speaking that is that's true, right. If you've got you will tend to get a better rating for a number of assets rather than just a single mining operation. So we put it together, we listed it at $2.00. We returned some money to our investors.

We left some money in the, in the company to continue to grow the, the company so as to speak. So we listed at $2.00 per share. It actually went it was very successful got done the the stock price went to three dollars 2330 something and and today it's back in the 40 cent zone. So what went wrong there? You know how does all that work? Well, you know markets come off clearly, but we really underperformed in a couple of areas. 11 was effectively

external forces there. We had, we had a severe rainfall event up at in Queensland north of Mount Isa at Capricorn Copper that took on more water than you can actually ever believe. Most much of it is still there and we were looking to release that over, over a period of time. You and you can't really operate in any way, shape or form near, near capacity when you've still got that water there. You've got to treat it, you've got to release it so it doesn't

happen. Overnight, so not, not a simple matter and of course your many of your treatment facilities, whether it's a ponding or whether it's the water treatment plant underwater, you know, so the damage there's the damage is still to be repaired if if you like. So we've got to get that got to get that done. So that, that has been a, you know, that's been a very serious blow for the company and we couldn't have done much about that, right. We had all of the diversion

channels in place. We, we provided for one in you know, 75 or 100 year events and we got one that was one in 250 year event type of thing. So we were, we're in trouble there. And and in WA I have to say we there was some underperformance at the Golden Grove operation as well. So that was more in our control.

But you will remember during those during that time you mentioned 2021-2022 you got, you got iron ore going gangbusters, you've got nickel going very well, you've got a lithium about to start and you've got gold going very well. So WA was was hot the trot in terms of the market for, you know, development activities, mining activities, fly in, fly out people and so on. So, so with a seat that single operation there in the West, you know, our, our costs were up and

our volumes were down. So therefore, but we've we've recovered brilliantly since then and now in much better shape at golden growth and a very good plan for Capricorn cop.

So bit of a long story there, Jonas, about 29 medals, but those two Australian operations and so on back on back on solid ground and and footing and and the Chilean acid really not a lot has happened at the smaller end of town there with with Red Hill. So to, to go to Europe just briefly, W Cumbria Coal, W Cumbria Mining is a company you're involved with as well that's had a sort of back and forth, back and forth with the, the government there.

And you know, a pretty big ruling has come out just recently there. Not so specific to that, but how do you think about mining in Europe? Are you, you know, very cautious of going, Obviously you got interests in other parts of Europe at the moment, but has that kind of put the the nail in the coffin for how you think about allocating money in that kind of part of the world? Well, it hasn't put the nail in, in the coffin or obviously always open to, you know, opportunities and wherever they

are. And you have to roll with the, the punches, of course. And at the end of the day, you've got to follow the regulator. As I say, we, we, we, we do three things. You know, we're business people. So we follow the market, we follow the follow the money, follow the follow the trends. We follow the regulator because without doing that, you can't do anything very much and you follow best international practise. That's what that's where you must have that beacon in the north.

You must follow those things. OK. Now within that, within that, when you look at a, a project, wherever it is, whether it's in the UK or whether it's in Eastern Europe, Western Europe and Spain, we're in country or Africa, you know, or the sands, you know, wherever you are, you will always look at well, what are the tonnes, what's the grade, what's the quality, what's the process and what's the life, what's the cost? What's the upside? Is it a stable and secure domain?

Can we operate here and can you get out? In other words, can you exit? So we talk about a stable and secure domain. That's really the question. What's the, what are the country risk type factors here? Is that the national government is the provincial government. How to how to what are the rules and what are the regulations? What about the workforce? What about the infrastructure? What about your social licence? Can you obtain, retain and

sustain your social licence? Because without that you might as well not show up anywhere, you know? So you've got to be, you've got to be convinced that you can actually embed yourself with those local communities, earn their trust, earn their confidence, earn their support and earn their cooperation. And so they are the key factors. Very, very comprehensive. I like it.

So to, to round out the conversation, I want to speak about a few more sort of contemporary and forward looking aspects of mining, specifically in Australia. So as we touched on before we started recording today, obviously a big event sort of happened in, in NSW, perhaps it wasn't acknowledged how big you know, in the, in the happening of Earth as it has with the ramifications of that.

Obviously I'm speaking about Mcfillanys and there's been a few other sort of similar ish decisions that have been made. If you could speak with the the sort of government officials, what, what's the sort of the line of thinking you would tell them? Yes. Well, look and again, I don't have the, I don't have the detail of of some of those things, but but the, but the signals have obviously been fairly negative. You'd have to say about that particularly when you go through

a long process. We, we actually don't mind the industry understands and doesn't mind going through a lengthy process, whether whether it's to do with environmental impact assessment, whether it's to do with heritage assessments. You know, you, you've got to follow the regular, you've got to do your work well. And, and Australia is absolutely outstanding at having the people and the consultants and the firms and so on to be able to do that.

We, we, we do that better in Australia than anywhere in the world. And that's why anywhere you go, it doesn't matter whether it's the rainforest of North Sumatra or the Atacama Desert in, in Peru, you'll find an Aussie, you know, mining engineer or environmental scientist there because we do our work really, really well. What you, what you don't want, what you prefer not to have are

surprises. In other words, get to the end of all of that because a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of effort and find that you get knocked out for something rather and you're not able to redress. So, so how does, how does that

work? Well, you know, you've actually got to stay close, stay in touch, stay close with all of those people, all of those stakeholders during that period to try and be be sure that there are no surprises, Jonas, at the end that that's, that's that's what you don't want. The regulatory regime in Australia is about as good as it gets in terms of the world. You want to see some of the regimes in other, in other places type of thing.

But it doesn't mean that you won't have glitches and it doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement in those things. And we're talking with governments and regulators, state, federal and local all the time, all the time. And you saw the other day three poll operations in NSW got their, got their extension permits and so on. So, you know, and, and our, our, our business at Ravenswood always been able to get those permits. Our business at Golden Grove

always been able. It doesn't mean it's not, you know, lots of hard work and time and so on and so forth. But you're always, generally speaking, able to get it because they tend to be, you know, like minded people, you know, because it's because it's a mining country. And because most people in Australia, as you know, are

highly supportive of mining. They actually understand what what mining per SE and the whole mining services area and all of those things that sort of depend on it and hang off. It does for the country and will continue to do. And we're going to continue to be busy, Janice. That's, that's the, that really is the point about the, about

the future here. In terms of the next 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, we're going to continue to be busy because there's long strong demand for all of the commodities that we've just been talking about and the energy transition has given a boost to them. That said, it it still does have, you know, perceived negative impacts on investing in mining globally. You know, Australia is seen as one of the the sort of safer jurisdictions.

Now you, you could kind of argue that less people in the space makes more opportunity for the EMR capital. But ultimately we, we do need a lot of money coming in to develop a lot of these assets. You know, you mentioned before Chile, some of these assets require a phenomenal amount of money all over the sort of world. Does part of it concern you at all that it might put off capital that's sort of needed to develop these assets? Definitely. So there's no question about

that. The the concerning, you know, you regulations are increasing and we understand that in terms of population increasing, we understand that in terms of you know. People's, people's expectations are are increasing, if you like, all of the time, as I say, we, we never mind actually going through the work and responding to all of those sorts of things. It just it just takes. Takes longer it's and it's a bit harder. So it takes longer to get permitted and so on and so forth. OK.

So we're going to have to do that. Doesn't matter whether you're here by the way or in in Indonesia or Chile or or China. For that matter. It's just going to simply take you longer to get permitted. So we're happy to put up with that. So, So what it makes you do of course is focus on those, those commodities that that you know are already in some form of short supply, if you like, or challenges to supply because there are more challenges on the way.

And that's why we like very much copper, we like very much gold, we like other base metals and we like metallurgical coal because there's no substitute for that in the in the steel industry. And we do like the fertiliser space too, expanding populations, increasing diets and and so on. So there'll be good strong demand there.

So, so does it. So your question was, well, does it mean that you go to, you're always looking at other places, always looking whether it's Australia or Africa or South America, and so always looking at opportunities there. Canada, we're looking at a number of opportunities in Canada at the moment. What do you want?

You want you want access to land, you want access to those projects, you want access to people and you must have access to capital And and you know, whether it's the the public markets and there's no better public market for capital, particularly for the smaller guys than the than Australia, because, you know, the ASX terrific platform, world class platform, doesn't doesn't mean it doesn't have as nuances either, so to speak, but a but a very good proven platform and

and has and has actually been very good over the past 1015, thirty years in terms of being able to access capital. But you also must be able to access the debt markets. And and that's where some of them are sort of open and close. Some banks are saying, well, we won't lend to this, won't lend to that or out of mining, so on. So that's always a bit of a disappointment, Jonas, when when those markets actually close to

you. But you know, it just makes you go a bit harder with those that are open. So you mentioned the the commodities you're interested in last question out of out of the four, you know, potash, cooking coal, gold and copper, what is the the one you'd pick if you could just for a say fund for VMR capital, there could be one focus. Copper and gold. So the the single, the single commodity copper and gold. They come together at times so it works.

Copper is red gold, of course. So now look, I, I think copper as an industrial metal, you, you can, you can actually in a way prices in terms of, you know, long strong demand challenges to supply great diversity of, of demand and getting a boost from the energy transition and as getting a boost from AI, you know, just think of those data centres. Think, think of the. Of of of the.

Power of the energy, there's got to go into AI and everything needs everything needs copper one one way or another. So that that's definitely a pick. But never forget gold. In fact, we think that gold we're we're looking to see gold Jonas as a critical metal. We think it's critical that everybody should have some in their portfolio. Beautiful, thanks for sharing your insights, your experience and your time. Bye. It's lovely to be here. Bloody great work JD, very insightful.

All the thanks to. Journey. Owen for for coming on. What a journey it was indeed, mate. He wouldn't have come on if MMS weren't here. Cornerstone Sponsor. No, and I think. He actually said that. You could say the exact same for Grounded. Yeah. Cross boundary Energy. Sandvik ground Support. CRE Insurance, Greenland's Equipment. K Drill, Australian earthworks and haulage you could say the same. For Spark you could say the same. For all of them. And MTTS as well.

We can't even get a bit out there. Absolutely better. Absolute gurus. Thank you very much for that, JD. Thanks Alan. And who to room? Money miners enjoy the weekend. Have a great weekend money miners. Information contained in this episode of Money of Mine is of general nature only and does not take into account the objectives, financial situation or needs of any particular person.

Before making any investment decision, you should consult with your financial advisor and consider how appropriate the advice is to your objectives, financial situation and needs.