Should I get a prenup?

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Before we begin, I'd love to hear a bit more about you and what you like about Money Clinic. We're running a short survey and anyone who takes part before the 29th of August will be entered into a prize draw for a pair of Bose QuietComfort 35 wireless headphones. spiffing you can find a link to the survey and the terms and conditions for the prize draw in today's show notes with wedding season in full swing getting divorced is probably the last thing on your mind

But allow me to snap Cupid's arrow. In the UK, over 42% of marriages end in divorce. There are often bitter disputes over money. And the more acrimonious you're split... the higher the legal costs will likely be. So I'm not surprised that nowadays more couples are choosing to draw up a prenuptial agreement before they walk down the aisle. But if your partner asks you to sign one...

Would it feel a bit, well, unromantic? Right now I feel nothing but love and adoration for Georgina, so why would I want to do anything other than make sure she was okay, should things not work out? It's a matter of reassuring the other person that a prenup or a postnup isn't there really to take advantage of the financially weaker party. It's to provide certainty for both of them.

Welcome to Money Clinic, the weekly podcast about personal finance and investing from the Financial Times. I'm Claire Barrett, the FT's consumer editor. In this episode, we meet newlyweds Steve and Georgina. who both said I do to a prenuptial agreement ahead of their summer wedding. They're here to tell us why.

Plus, I quiz a top lawyer and the head of a new low-cost digital prenup service about the pros and cons of prenups, including why they won't always be legally binding in the UK with loads of practical tips. But first, let's meet Steve and Georgina, who decided that going ahead with a prenuptial agreement was the right decision for them. Well, it's lovely to have a couple in the Money Clinic studio. It doesn't happen often enough.

Steve, Georgina, would you like to just introduce yourself to our listeners? Hi, my name's Georgina. I've lived in Spain most of my life. I moved to Spain when I was seven years old. And that's how me and Steve met. He was on a family holiday. So it was a holiday romance? No, we were just friends. I was 11 and Steve was 13. Oh, okay. So we were just friends, weren't we? But we kept in touch and obviously back then there was no mobiles or anything, so we were pen pals.

So we used to sort of like painstakingly wait three weeks for a letter to arrive. And then if I came to England on holiday, I would see, we would meet up and go ice skating or the cinema. And then we got to about 16 and 18. And we went our separate ways. We both got married and had children. Life happened. Life happened, yeah. And then we're now here today, engaged to be married. Wow, what an incredible story. It's lovely to have a positive story to report on Money Clinic, I have to say.

You both look like you've been together for a long time. Don't take that the wrong way. You just have that ease, that comfortableness. I think we've said that that comes because... Our relationship was based on a friendship first. And as I said, with the no mobile side of things and social media, we really had to work at keeping our friendship going. I think it's fair to say...

Couples in their 40s, late 30s who are coming together when there has been a divorce or a curveball of another kind that's affected life. We do feel a bit differently about how... We approach a partnership like marriage, what we each bring to the table. We've been around the block a few times. It was a very hard time. I moved to Spain when I was a single mum. My divorce was...

It was a little bit complicated. It often is. Yeah, because of the Spanish legal system and with Lila being born in Spain, it meant that I was left in a very unstable financial position. with a rental apartment, trying to pay everything myself. With COVID as well, I lost my job. So it was a very, very difficult time. I was going through a hard time. I lost my wife to cancer. And previously, just before that, my uncle, he was a business partner of mine. He died very, very suddenly.

So I was going through a difficult period, but about a year before that, I'd actually exited a business and come into some money. So I was financially stable. So between the two of us, we had this kind of opposing... Okay. Well, I mean, thank you for talking us through your setup, the two of you. Georgina, when Steve first mentioned the term green-up, be honest, what was your reaction?

I said, I will sign whatever you want me to because I know that this is it. Me and you are forever. So it didn't scare me in the slightest. A lot of people... see it badly because it's looked at as people are trying to protect themselves. Whereas it became apparent that Steve's reasoning wasn't just what his IFA was. advising, it was that he wanted to protect me and Lila because we'd given up everything in Spain to move here. So he wanted to protect us in that sense that on the off chance.

on the off chance that things went wrong, that I wouldn't feel like I had to stay here, that I could go back to Spain and that it would be a feasible option. Well, I mean, that's great to hear. But I'm wondering if you told your friends and family that you're going to sign a prenup. I mean, obviously, there must have been over the moon that the two of you were getting back together.

I did notice when I've spoken about it in front of friends, there's a slight twitch in body language. I did notice a slight kind of taboo reaction where they're kind of like, oh. Okay, you're actually telling me that. It's like I might be oversharing in some way. But to me, I think, why shouldn't you talk about these things? It's not a divorce before a marriage. It's actually you talking pragmatically about, well, look.

what if things do change i suppose if anyone's open and honest about how they feel and no one's trying to capitalize on a situation then i think it should be a simple and easy process and it shouldn't be abhorrently expensive either because certainly the first person i spoke to about setting a prenup up wanted you know

best part of nine thousand pounds nine thousand nine thousand pounds to set up a green up i started googling and after a few days i found the green up website i was like this is perfect that means george and i can sit together and do this Yeah, no, it was a very simple, it was a 40 minute process, wasn't it? With the lawyers when we did it individually. And it was very, very relaxed. And yeah, you felt very comfortable doing it. There was no difficult side to it. Well, what advice?

Would both of you give to couples or one half of a couple who are thinking about getting a prenup? Just talking is the key and not to be afraid of... broaching these subjects i think there's a lot to be said for going into the process in reverse to where you would be in a divorce and by that i mean i was able to look at it objectively and say

Right now, I feel nothing but love and adoration for Georgina. So why would I want to do anything other than make sure she was okay should things not work out? And that's a luxury that you don't have when things break down. in relationships. So you would say rather than something unromantic, really, it's an act of love. Yeah, you're protecting each other. You're looking out for each other from the start. Yeah. I think being open, straight talking, honest.

trusting and being willing to communicate at a human level rather than it being lawyers like talking about legal language you end up seeing the true state of your relationship and i think that's why we found it very very easy to talk about well certainly we're very privileged to have you

come in and talk about something that is so personal and so private on money clinic podcast but i really hope that people who are listening to this who've wondered but haven't really known who or or how to to ask these questions will be feeling clearer in their own minds about this. So thank you and congratulations for the wedding that's ahead. Thank you.

While prenups have an American association, they are increasingly becoming a thing here in the UK. I wanted to know more about the process and how these agreements hold up in court. Plus, the best way to broach the subject... with a partner. With me in the studio now is Richard Hogwood. He is a partner in the Divorce and Family Law Department at Stewart's Law, who unearthed some interesting findings for us about the recent growth in demand for prenups at their firm.

is seeing. Welcome, Richard. Thanks very much, Claire. Thank you for having me. Well, can you tell us a bit about the trends in the prenup market that you're experiencing? Certainly. So we've analysed really the inquiries we've been receiving this year so far, and we've noticed that...

Staggeringly, they're double what they were this time last year or just under double. And even looking back at our busiest year for prenups before that, which was 2021, they're nearly 70% up on that particular period as well. Gosh, so we can't just put that down to the...

bottleneck of weddings occurring after COVID restrictions have been removed. I think that's right. I think that probably does justify the 2021 peak that we had at that point, but not this higher peak in 2024. That has to be down to something else. And what do you think is driving it? Now, I know you're a lawyer, so you don't like to be pinned down on things, but your best guess? My best guess is, I think it's just word of mouth is getting out there. It's the ripple effect that...

The more people who get used to the idea of having one or indeed do have one, they speak to their friends, they like the idea or they look into it. And so it grows from there. So it's almost an exponential growth in knowledge and interest, I think. Popular culture references that may be giving people the idea that it's actually not just something for the ultra-wealthy? I almost think popular culture has accounted against them in the past. I think people have often associated them with...

the celebrities, the rich and the famous. It's what you do in California, perhaps, or in Hollywood. It's not something we do in England. And I think actually it's in a way debunking that and realising that they can be for... more and more people, not just the rich and famous that these are applied to. Well, okay. Well, I'm conscious that you're a legal eagle and listeners will want to know how useful are prenups? Because there is this grey area of will they count?

under the law or not. So talk us through that to start off with. Absolutely. So they are very, very, very effective if they're done in inverted commas properly. And so we have a discretionary system on divorce. Judges... Maintain discretion you can't contract out of that. But a properly done prenup, or indeed a postnup, will now be upheld, really as a matter of course, by the judges. So you've asked the awkward question, you've got the ball rolling.

But in terms of timing, when do you need to agree a prenup before you get married? The sooner the better. What you don't want is to suddenly produce a draft document on the steps of the church, really. That's a pretty bad start to married life. There is no absolute rule about when they have to be done. There's been guidance in the past suggesting...

You want it finished off at least 21 or 28 days before a wedding. The key is lack of pressure. So I would suggest ideally you start things four, five, six months in advance. But there's always an option if you've left it too late of saying... Let's agree some of the principles now, but document it after the wedding. Let's return to it as a post-nuptial agreement rather than a pre-nuptial agreement. OK. When do prenups go wrong? There are a few scenarios.

Timing is one of them. Leaving them too late and suddenly brandishing it like a rabbit from a hat is not a good starting point. They go wrong also if I think parties don't speak about it with each other. It does need to be their document at the end of the day. It goes wrong sometimes if people are being too mean because it makes the other party...

slightly reassess who it is they're choosing to marry in the first place. And it sometimes goes wrong if other people interfere too much. And so parents, grandparents, trustees, family, friends will have a view, but they also need to know when to step back as well. And I mean, you've been a lawyer for some time. What about couples where there's quite a big imbalance? Say one person is the really high earner, the other person doesn't earn quite so much.

maybe has more of a role looking after the children, one person whose parents have already helped them to buy a house. That's quite common. How do you address those kinds of imbalances in a prenup? I suppose... To start with, one has to remember that to be effective, a prenup has to be fair. It has to meet someone's needs at the time of signing, but also at the time of implementation. And implementation is a crystal ball-gazing exercise. And so I suppose the skill in a nuptial agreement is...

playing through these different scenarios for the future and saying, would you each be okay? Would your needs be met? Would any children's needs be met? One year, five years, 10 years, 100 years into the future. Okay. Now, what advice would you offer?

to one half of a couple, wondering how to bring up the initial conversation. You blame someone else. You say, my lawyer suggested it, my financial advisor suggested it, my parents suggested it, my trustees suggested it, my best friend suggested it, any of these. Get the discussion going. And then I think it's a matter of reassuring the other person that a prenup...

or a post-nup isn't there really to take advantage of the financially weaker party. As I say, it's to provide certainty for both of them. It's to provide litigation avoidance, if possible, for both of them. It's not a one-way street. There should be something in it for both people from it. And I think the sooner everyone realises, the more amicable and sensibly.

the whole thing can be discussed. Now, you mentioned parents there as somebody you could blame. I'm guessing that this is one of the main reasons why a prenup could go wrong, this pressure from families to... get it done when the couple themselves may not be willing. It doesn't seem a very romantic thing to do. No, it's, I suppose it's like, we're all...

bad at putting in place wills and stuff like that because no one wants to think about the idea of dying. Similarly, particularly on the eve of getting married, you don't want to think about the notion of getting divorced. You want things to be sorted out sensibly, and it's a bit like an anti-lawyer or an anti-litigation insurance policy to put in place. Yes, it's a cost at a time when you have the costs of a wedding, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't need to be.

drawn out or stressful or costly exercise. I mean, just talking in broad terms about the numbers here, how much would it cost one half of a couple to set up a prenup? And assuming that they have done that, how much might it save them if they were then to get divorced in future? A difficult question, I know, but some ballpark figures. The amount it could be saved, in theory, you're...

You're looking at potentially on divorce in England at least. 50% could be up for grabs depending on the form those assets take and the length of the marriage and other relevant factors. There's no sky's the limit really as to what they can cover.

And the cost of them tends to be a few thousand pounds. And compared to the costs of litigation on divorce potentially as well, the legal costs alone on a very contested case could be into the six figures for both parties. And so you're looking to save... as much of that as you can, really. And it's a horrible question to ask you, Richard, but have you ever worked with couples who've split up during the process? Because it does sound like it could be quite stressful.

I think I've got 100% success rate of everyone I've started a nuptial agreement discussion with has continued to go on and get married. So I haven't, I think, derailed any marriages. I certainly hope not. I think where you have to be particularly careful is... host nuptial agreements because, of course, people there are already married. And so to introduce a topic of conversation about divorce at a fractious point in a relationship, you want to tread carefully, I think, in that scenario.

Agreeing a prenup isn't the only way that couples can legally protect their future finances when entering into big commitments such as moving in together or buying a property especially if they're not married. The rules are different depending on which part of the UK you live in, but a solicitor can advise you on how to proceed. Yes, and cohabitation agreements are not as much used as one would expect them to be.

one person wants to get married and one doesn't, and that may be because the one wanting to get married recognises they're vulnerable as a cohabitant but wants the security of marriage, then a cohabitation agreement can offer that person... a protection they're not already having. So they could say, I don't want to marry you, but I do want you to feel economically safe and secure. So by this cohabitation agreement, we won't get married, but I will confirm that if we split up or indeed...

during the currency of our relationship, I will make this financial provision for you. So they could serve a purpose almost as a halfway house between being purely cohabiting or purely married. Now, what about if you're not married? And you're going to buy a property together. Very common scenario nowadays. Is there a way that you can protect your contribution to that property? Absolutely. You can enter into a declaration of trust.

When you acquire the property, you can say that you own it in tenants and common rather than joint tenancy in... something other than a 50-50 share. And by being away from the matrimonial regime, which is this discretionary regime you can't contract out of, if you're in the property world instead, it can be binding. And so you will know with

pretty much absolute certainty that this is what will happen. Richard, thank you so much for coming in and giving us the benefit of your legal expertise on the show. You explained things so clearly. We're very lucky to have you. Thank you, Claire. Appreciate it.

While prenups can save you money by keeping you out of court, they are notoriously expensive legal documents to draw up, especially when you plan to keep them in the back of a filing cabinet. So how could you do it for less? With me in the studio is James Bruckner, the co-founder of WeenUp, the online prenup service for couples in the UK that Steve and Georgina use to facilitate their agreement. Welcome, James. Hi, Claire. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Well, I want to hear the story of how you set up WeenUp, because you're not a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer, no. But the origin story of our business started around five or six years ago. When my wife and I were getting married at the time, we both had acquired assets prior to marriage that we would consider ring fencing in a prenup and started to look into options together.

And around the same time, my co-founder, Mossin, who is a lawyer and was getting married to his husband, was also looking into a prenup to facilitate a similar need. And when we looked into options together and started discussing it, what we found is there was a kind of lack of affordable and collaborative options. And it was really that that led to us founding WeenUp a few years later. Wow.

Well, necessity is the mother of invention, I think they say. Indeed. Now, what kind of couples are using your service? We see a mix of profiles, backgrounds and relationship dynamics. We're generally appealing to a non-traditional demographic. Three quarters of our couples have less than half a million in assets. Only 2% of our couples meet the HMRC definition of high net worth.

15% of our couples are in fact same sex, which compared to 3% of marriages is a surprising stat. It is surprising. Why do you think it's so high? I'm not sure of the reasons behind this trend. My co-founder, Mohsin, is a best-selling author on LGBT rights, and he has a hypothesis that same-sex couples are more comfortable...

navigating complex conversations about identity and acceptance and are therefore better prepared for the kinds of open and honest conversation you need to have when entering into a nuptial agreement. They're used to doing awkward. Indeed, yeah. Well, fascinating that you say so many people who are coming to you, they have assets but they don't have huge amounts of wealth but nevertheless want to protect it. This is why...

The cost is so important. How does wean-up service differ in price to a traditional high street firm of solicitors, say? So most of the couples that engage with us will have had other quotes for their nuptial agreement, and those can range from £5,000 upwards. And that would be each? Usually, yes. There are also cheaper options than us, so we're not aiming to be the kind of pound land of prenups. I think what most couples appreciate about our service is that it's inherently equitable.

in that both members of the couple contribute equally to the process in drafting their agreement. And then each member of the couple has... the opportunity to select a lawyer on our platform and have the same level of legal advice as part of the service. So it's less about price, although we are cheaper than most other options, and more about the overall experience of doing it in a collaborative way.

But let's get down to brass tacks. How much would people actually pay on average using WeenUp? So 90 to 95% of our couples pay a fixed fee of £1,500 total. or 750 per person. Could you walk us through how the actual process works? So before starting the process, it's expected that the couple will have had the discussions that they need to have before.

entering into a nuptial agreement. Once they engage in the process, they will have to lay out on our online platform how they wish to separate their assets in the event of a divorce. And that will require them to categorise assets into either separate or shared and answer a series of questions which, using logic, will produce a draft agreement. So it's quite interesting because...

You may not know the full financial picture in that black and white detail when you go to marry someone. Some people don't even know what their partner earns. Yeah, I think that touches upon another really important theme here, which is... Couples need to approach this from a position and a place of honesty because one of the criteria a nuptial agreement needs to fulfil is that each person needs to have had a full and frank.

financial disclosure from each other in terms of the values and nature of the assets that they're bringing into the marriage. Then once those assets have been documented in a draft on our platform, each person has the opportunity to select an independent family lawyer. to advise them both independently and separately on the agreement where they will generally finesse the draft that's been produced on our platform and advise them on the implications of signing it.

In order for a nuptial agreement to be upheld in a court, both people will need to have received independent legal advice prior to signing it.

Your answer to the next question, James, will either confirm or dispel one of the biggest fears listeners might have about asking their partner for a prenup. Have you seen a couple break up over the process? So we haven't yet seen a couple break up during our process. And my biased reasoning for that would be because we've designed a process that's inherently amicable and collaborative for people.

Okay, well, I suppose if you can't get through tough conversations at this stage of your relationship, then... It doesn't say very much for the marriage that lies ahead. Well, thanks ever so much for coming in to talk to us today. Fascinating to hear about developments in this market. Thank you for having me on, Claire.

Being able to talk about money openly with one another is a key test of any relationship. If you feel in need of further inspiration, there's a link in today's show notes to two of our other classic couples episodes. How can we stop arguing about money and the financial consequences of moving in together? While it might feel awkward or unromantic to start these kinds of conversations, this is nothing.

compared to the level of discomfort you will both feel should the worst happen. Special thanks to Steve and Georgina, Richard Hogwood and James Bruckner for sharing their stories on today's episode.

That's it for Money Clinic with me, Claire Barrett, this week, and we hope you like what you've heard. If you did, spread the word and leave us a review. We're always looking to chat with people about their money issues for the show, so if you're interested in being part of a future episode, then email us. We're money at ft.com. You could also take a peek at our website, ft.com slash money, grab a copy of the FT Weekend newspaper or follow me on Instagram or TikTok. I'm at Claire B.

And let us know what you think of the show. Click the link in the show notes to complete a short survey before August the 29th to be in with a chance of winning a pair of Bose QuietComfort 35 wireless headphones. Money Clinic was produced in London by Tamara Kamornik. The sound design is by Breen Turner and our editor is Manuela Saragossa. You heard original tunes this week by Metaphor Music and Cheryl Brumley is the FT's Global Head of Audio.

And finally, our usual disclaimer, the Money Clinic podcast is a general discussion around financial topics and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you'll need to find an independent financial advisor. That's all the small print for now. See you back here next week. Goodbye.

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