05: Life's a Pitch

Moe Factz with Adam curry August 26 2019 Episode Five. Oh Moe you've done it again to me. You brought the brought the music once again as Grandmaster Flash, a message. I think I can still do it. Let me see if I can do it hold on a sec when we see broken glass everywhere people pissing on the stairs no that just don't care. I can't take the smell can't take the noise gotten the money move out. Guess it got no choice

wrapped in the front room roaches in the back. jockeys in the alley with a baseball bat tried to get away but it couldn't get bought because a man with a tow truck to test my car. Okay, there we go. This came out. This came out when I was a kid. I used to know all of it is the message. Yeah, it is the message. That's I think that's appropriate for what we're about to talk to talk about today. As if people haven't noticed all the all the music is appropriate

to the shows. I'm sure we have some very smart listeners. So they might have figured it out. Yeah, right. Right. Just for just for the people that you know, maybe just tuning in that bill will pick that up. One thing I'd like to clear up from the last show is I said, auto Sterling was the guy that was choked out. I knew we got that one wrong. Yes. Ah Is Eric Garner Gardner, right. All right. So I want to apologize for that. Just a little fat check. Clean up fat check call.

So many people hit me in the DMS and I'm like Eric Garner, Eric. Well, hopefully that's not the only thing they took away from Episode Four. But yeah, I just wanted to clear that up right up front. So how's everything else going? Now? Everything's good in opportunity zone? 33 on the frontier of Austin, Texas. How about you? Everything's gone. Great. got an email from last show. Concerning last show, the clip we played. I forget the gentleman's name.

Terrible. It was the immigration hurting are hurting black people clip? Ah, yes. Okay. I don't remember either who that was. But I know exactly what you're talking about. So the gentleman from net clear, and I'm going to find his name because it's important, but he will possibly want to do an interview. Oh, wonder listeners made the connection. Nice. I don't want to say the wave and head Ted Hayes. Yes, Ted Hayes, right? Is the gentleman from the clip, I don't want to say that

person's name for email credit and get the Okay. But you know who you are. And I much appreciate that. Because that's what we want from, from this channel is to, you know, bring good information in so it can be dispersed. And we'll be talking about this at the end of the show. But the idea of how these types of podcasts work, he falls under the value for value system. And we'll talk a bit about at the end, as I said, but in effects. Everyone is a listener, but more

importantly, everybody becomes a producer. And there's many ways you can help. And that's a great example when someone has a knowledge information to contact any other skills that you think would contribute to the show. You're a producer and you'll be credited as such as well. So that's exactly what producers do is find connections and reach out and try and make the program better.

And we love those subject matter experts like the other gentleman Macao wrote in about the opportunity's own so I'm loving getting all this information because it gives you a better well rounded view on the topics that we discussed. Yes. And I'm sure we'll come around to many of the topics that we've already covered. Yes. So with that said where we left off in the last couple of

shows were the think tanks. We looked at the left leaning think tanks we looked at last show we looked at the right leaning Think Tank, Prager University or Praeger you and I found this interesting clip isn't it's from a movie, but a candidate described describes or details. I think how a conversation may go between these two schools of thought that's trying to persuade black people to think one way or another. And that's trick baby. As you liberals who have lifted them up power, Paul, you

conservatives make the mistake. You can't afford to strangle hope and people without hope. People become dangerous. No are you liberals have left them in vade our society, you give them jobs, political job, Oh, you missed the point. Only the smart ones we move up. That makes it even worse. Oh, we have to move them up. If we leave a smart one in the ghetto, you might develop into a leader against us. But if we raise him up into white

society, we neutralize. It feels compelled to try wag like us. He loses his identity and his racial anger. If he has the he becomes alien to his brothers. They realize he sold them out and they grow to hate him. He becomes worthless to them, and safe for us. No, thank you. In fact, in his love for the creature comforts, except for his color. He's become one of us. Wow, who was in this movie? And that's the movie of trick baby from 1974. It was one of

the Blaxploitation films. And the reason why I brought that is I thought that was a great illustration for the two extremes, the left and the right, right, they're vying for the mind of the of the black man. I would imagine how this conversation goes. Now this is not saying the run of the mill,

average, General, left or right person, these are extremes. So I wanted to bring that to the table to kind of illustrate what I think how that conversation might go to the listeners, you have two schools of thought of how to control our persuade the black community, the quote, unquote, black community. So what did you take away from that clip? Adam? Well, what it sounded like to me is, well, first of all, outrageous just to hear that conversation. But both sides

wanted to make the subjects it was mind control. I mean, either way was mind control based on human emotions. But the general concept being if you can show something good and comfortable and nice over here, that's the direction people will go. And there's all these ways you can exploit them on their journey. Right. So that's the kind of thing that I wanted to

illustrate, I think we, I think that was a nice little bow. To put on the previous conversation we were having of the two extremes of the think tanks, or the think tanks, then a nice little one minute clip. And that, of course, is not abnormal for the think tanks. In this case, it's about getting black people, nudging them where they want them to go. This happens, of course, for all groups and races and religions, etc. And I'm glad you brought up that word nudging because we're right

back where we left off. So we brought this term up nudging in a previous show, but we really didn't lay out what it was, I mean, in detail and how it works. And I saw one of the greatest nudges of all time. With the Popeyes versus Chick fil A conversation who has the best sandwich. The reason why I say that is one for people of my community, a certain conversation that we don't have in mixed company. So for this to take place on social media so openly, it made me wonder what

is happening here. And just to give us testament of how taboo is to have this conversation in public. For one, I feel uncomfortable right now having this conversation. Really okay. And I'm not even sure what the conversation is yet Mo. The conversation is who has the better Froch? Waving this habit creeped over into your feed? No, though, I know about the Fast Food Wars, where there's a lot going on on Twitter. And I have followed that a bit but

never in this context. And I certainly didn't know that it is a social taboo amongst black Americans to discuss who has the better chicken sandwich. No, just no. Discuss fried chicken in general. It's certain things that are stereotypical and of course, this is for every community, of course, that you don't discuss that stereotypical topic. in mixed company. It's not about who has the best or not, that's not just about the whole fried chicken thing and that's fine.

It's a trigger I get it of course, and the to illustrate that fried chicken in public. You know, when black people eat chicken for a long time, we didn't eat it because of the racial stereotypes about us eating chicken Yeah. Do you think that because of what you do, and you know, even when I do with the comedy and stuff that we have made it look different and made it acceptable?

Yeah, I do. I mean, like I said, it's your approach to it, you know, like you approach it from an authentic organic, genuine, you know, I know you do that with your comedy, you're putting good energy out. Just you just kind of, you know, showing something that's pretty obvious, but you know, it is what it is. Don't tell me you're actually going to take us back to the roots of this. No, I'm not gonna go there. Okay, I'm not gonna go because

that's that will be that's a general conversation. Expected. Got it. It's amazing that you haven't heard this topic. I am simply amazed because social media. Well, now, hold on, hold on. Let me just step back for a second because I'm maybe I was a little confused. I've seen competing ads for chicken sandwiches from the fast food. And if I saw that on television, or read an article about it, but it's on the radar, but way off because it just, I haven't been thinking about it for me.

That's not what I'm talking about here. Oh, social media was a blade. Oh, boy, a blaze, like the conversation of who has the best chicken sandwich? Popeyes versus Chick fil A. And the reason why I bring this up is this is the perfect example of several things that's discussed on this show. And even on the knowledge in the show, one the native add to nudging. And three, how these social media conversations happen in silos. I just want to say I'm amazed that you didn't see this trending on your

timeline. And we both agree that you have a gray. Yes, I do have a yes, I do have a great timeline. That's right. That is amazing. I am flabbergasted that you haven't heard it. But my I don't know if I'm supposed to feel bad or not. But it's my filters around for other stuff. So I've just been looking at other things. And by the way, I don't like chicken sandwiches. I don't think you understand how big this was. Made local news. Oh my goodness. I need to hand in my credentials.

Popeyes versus Chick fil A. The chicken sandwich war wages on tonight and the upland team is putting the Popeyes chicken sandwich to the test. We'll get to that in just a moment. But if you've missed out on what

everyone's talking about, let's kind of catch you up. This is the new Popeyes chicken sandwich that's got so many folks talking it started the debate the chain put it out last week nationwide and many people were comparing it to the Atlanta born Chick fil A chicken sandwich that was all well and good until chick fillet responded with this tweet saying all love for the original Popeyes of course response and are y'all good. And then we see when these jump into the fray saying these two fools are

competing for second best sandwich. Of course, Popeye's, responding again saying you must have ate one of our biscuits because you're looking thirsty and windy thing that means your food is as dry as your jokes. This is going on with so many other companies getting in on it. A 2013 study from Cornell University found 59% of chain restaurants and 79% of independent restaurants use social media and that study was from six years ago. So we're seeing much more we're also

seeing the chains getting sassy online. So this likely won't be the last time we see some sort of war on social media. Yeah, okay. Yes, I read about this, but I read it in an advertising industry magazine. And so and it was more a little broader context about the advertisers using social media and the pitfalls and the upside etc. So I have more background information than of the actual incredible extravaganza of outrage over which sandwich is the best.

And this is my point for this conversation to happen in the black community on social media. Shows you the power of the native ad and of social media. I can't say another word mind control.

And is is anonymity a part of this now that we have people putting their face I can tell knowing you that you are really blown away by this happening and that's fascinating because of course I missed this How the hell would I would I know that this is not something you talk about in mixed company yet on social media is blowing up. I am irked. I am amazed ah Oh, I like, like, for lack of better.

I'm flabbergasted that the topic of the conversation being had it grew to a certain level, as we've discussed before, it's just a little low, low background. It starts, it starts trending on social media. Then the local news picks it up. Yep. So for the fact for this local, this is a local news station. I believe in Atlanta. I want to say, well, maybe that's why it's news even though they didn't really say that. Right. The other thing is, and it clipped this part of the

clip, they have a taste test. With three black people taking it to the extreme. Wait a minute, there's only three black people to test the chicken sandwiches. Yeah. And they had a guy was a white guy. He went on camera, and they called Donald Trump racist. This is great. But did you hear the language of the clip? I'm taken aback. I'll always use them amazed. I had people who were saying friends DM him like, do you see this? Do you see this conversation going

on? I mean, more of the what you want to call you know, the, the, you know, the woke crowd, that word? Know that we know exactly what you mean. That's good. Do you see the conversation is gone on all social media right now. And I was so pissed. For the simple fact. There's certain things and I'm sure this was every culture that you don't have this conversation in mixed company. Do you mind? Explore that for a second? Go ahead. You were pissed? What was your actual feeling? What I mean, you were

pissed? Because it was happening because it felt like a taboo was broken. And why here? Why now? What were you feeling? What was your personal feeling about it? My personal feeling is this. There are certain cultural code and let's be clear, I don't even feel comfortable having this conversation here now. Yeah, okay, that that explains so much right there. I gotcha. Because you're comfortable with pretty much everything. Right? But there because what it does, it feeds the stereotype.

And the clip we played before is people were black people wouldn't even cannibal eating chicken in public. Right. Um, that was my EPS from the show. That's his television show. That's racist. So for this conversation too slow on social media. And then when you go back and listen to the these are the public accounts for Popeyes Chick fil A, and Wendy's timeout you mad? You see these fools. It's like, who was typing this for these companies? That's what I always think, like, Wow, man, whose job is

that to talk like this? And do they have some kind of approval chain of command? I always wonder about that. Right. So not to belabor the point. But the reason why I'm bringing this up is if you can have people have a taboo conversation, or what is perceived as a taboo conversation, that shows you the level of expertise they have in this in this advertising and manipulation through social media. But to go forward, we have to go back and we have to look at someone like air Edward Bernays,

the father of propaganda. Yes, he the father of propaganda, Tom Kellner, let's see a little background on him. Mr. Tom Kellner is the author of public relations and digital and digital age. He's at from the University of Florida College of journalism and communications. He's in his clip he speaks on Edward Bernays. It's funny because a lot of the cases in public relations that really illustrate some of the key principles are ones that the

field gets criticized for Edward Bernays is a great example. I've got the classic case in there on the torches of freedom, where he basically used techniques of Social Psychology of Persuasion and develop new techniques to persuade women to smoke and on face value, you know, obviously, that's wrong, you know, why would we want anyone to smoke, let alone women in the 1920s. However, if you go down a layer, it's really interesting because it opens up for First of all, what are the what are the

practices that are at work? there. And even if you think about the most evil propaganda in the world, we need to be able to understand those processes so that we can identify them. That's an important societal function that's important and critical thinking. Yeah, this is good. This is the foundation of advertising. And it's very important for people don't understand these, this history. And the reason why I use this clip is he brought up the torches of freedom. Have you heard of that atom?

I've heard? I've heard it. Yes. I could not tell you what it means. Okay, so background on the torches of freedom. And you're going to see some parallels here. In the 1920s. It was taboo for women to smoke. Especially in public. Oh, yes. I remember. Is this the parade? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. Now, we see we're talking taboos here. Edward Bernays to women gave them cigarettes, specifically lucky strikes.

That's what we work for. And gave them to a group of feminists and a parade and show them marching down the street, smoking the cigarettes and the parade. Was this what the suffered the suffragette movement was co opted for this, I think, Ah, I think wasn't that more power vision or no, no, no. Well, it was the right for women to vote. Now saying what and I thought they were more involved in the prohibition but I'm maybe maybe I'm may be off.

All right, keep going. I'll I'll do a quick lookup, just. So the point is to show you is with public relations, as they call it. A better term for that is propaganda. And they use the term propaganda, they stop using the term propaganda because of the loaded weight that that word had and switched over to public relations. So one thing I want people to take away from is anytime you see that word public relations, substitute that for propagandists, right, because that's the proper term for it.

But Edward Bernays, he's a genius. Think he was Sigmund Freud's nephew. Correct. So he understood psychology very well. And he wrote many books, and he was the industry like kureta a public relations out I would say, I would say without being a stretch, he's also also the person that said bacon and eggs. Were a great American breakfast, healthy breakfast, because he got doctors to convenient out. So this had happened. Pork farmers had a high quantity of low quality meat called Bacon

that they needed to sell. So he convinced doctors to come out and say, a great hearty American breakfast is bacon and eggs. And that allowed him to sell this meat that was really unwanted. And now let's the American way MO That is the American way. I'm just That's great. Wrong. Yeah, right, wrong. And this leads us into the second clip of what is okay and what is not. Okay.

But the other important part is let's let's hash out the ethical part is does that mean that you know, organizations should never try to persuade somebody to buy a product? And again, I think it's, we can say yes, it's bad to promote cigarettes. But I think we need to say, Well, wait a minute, why, you know, what was Bearnaise actually doing wrong? If that had been a socially responsible product or something that really helps society? And he didn't do a lot of that too. You know, how can

we separate out you know, what makes one case unethical? From what another case? What makes another case ethical? Yeah, that's a good question. So, this is we're gonna start seeing seeing a theme here moving forward of ethics. Is it ethical for people to be nudged? So we have Mr. Richard Taylor. And Mr. Richard Thaler is from the University of Chicago, Graduate School of Business. Now he's a professor there. And he wrote a book nudge improving decisions about health, wealth

and happiness. And in the next clip, we won't have Mr. Taylor, do an overview of what a nudge is. Nudge is any small feature in the environment that attracts our attention, and influences the behavior that we make. The nudging is done by what we call a choice architect, which is a fancy term for anyone who influences the choices that you

make. Take the example of the cafeteria downstairs. Somebody had to decide when Where to put the salad bar where to put the burgers, where to put the ice cream, where to put the coffee. That person is a choice architect because the arrangement of the food influences the choices that we make. Absolutely supermarkets, everything. All right, we see this in caps, the eye level products, compared to the ones on the bottom. So we see this in stores in a physical

environment. But then we have to ask ourselves, what about in the cyber environment? Correct? Choice architects for what we see, oh, the banners, Western our feeds, what they determined to be most important on the rankings. We see this all the time. So I'm laying out a thing here of now we see how propaganda works, they can take things that are taboo, and make them more than acceptable, even though they may not be healthy or ethical. And we got to ask ourselves, who are these choice

architects? And what and how do we hold them responsible for their actions? So let's listen to the clip number two, some people worry that the idea of choice architects and nudging is somehow leading to Big Brother. And that's not the way we think about it. One of the points we stress in the book is that there

has to be some choice architecture. So the person who designs that cafeteria downstairs has to put the food somewhere, the salad has to be in front of the burgers or behind the burgers, given that you have to arrange the food in some order, we argue, why not have the choice architect, arrange the food in such a way that people will be happier and healthier? And maybe live a little? Yes, well, the only way to do that is to test and see what works better, and then implement the results.

So this is my thesis on going back on the Popeyes versus Chick fil A debate. I think these social media companies understand as don't work anymore. Would you agree? Would you agree that not only would I agree, I think Jack Dorsey is a very smart guy. And he's probably figured this out. Correct. So with that understanding, can you explain to us and you're saying for the listeners, how do social media companies make their money? Because you don't pay to be on

the to be on there? So how exactly do they make their money? Well, they have a lot of different revenue streams. Initially, just display advertising was thought to work well. And too, so just when you see an ad for something, Instagram is probably even a better example where you see it pop up. That's very clear.

Twitter is much less clear is how it works. But the big part of the revenue is how can we exploit these people based upon the data that they are leaving behind with their behavioral footprint? So would you say, creating an argument about a product versus one product A versus product B would kill two birds with one stone? I think it kills a couple of birds. First of all, if I'm Twitter, and I know what my audience really likes better, I'm going to talk to those guys. And I'll probably talk to the

other guys and give him the same information. Say you should be stepping up your game here because look, it looks like these guys are beating the pants off here. And what it seemed like to me was Popeyes was trolling Chick fil A, I mean, Chick fil A is number one and fast food period. This is exactly that article that I was reading was and they didn't even answer conclusively. Is this the strategy was the question is the strategy of one over the other to call one out

to bring more attention to them. It's all up I'll see if I can put it in some show notes that fascinating article. So yeah, absolutely. This was strategy. So let me give you a little background from how I've seen this work in the music industry, which is the thing and rap called beef. And what B does is you have one the lesser MC or rapper called the other out, calls out the bigger rapper.

Yep. And they keep doing it. You see it in boxing as well. But you're saying for this example we see and let's just take a rap for instance, to be the lesser of the two and garner you have to latch yourself on with the with the the top rapper and you do that by what they call beef. And the perfect example of this you know saying was So a guy named 50 cents. Maybe you heard

of him? Yeah. What he when he was first coming up, there was a guy named John Rue, which a lot of people may not have heard of. He was the top fire festival. Right That guy? Well, before that he was he was one of the top representatives and the rat industry chair. And what 50 cent did was create a song about Ja Rule. That was so potent. It

really it demanded a response. Right, exactly. And what that did was put 50 cents, the lesser rapper on the level of gyro, the number one selling, you're saying hitmaking rapper at the time. It's a well known tactic in marketplaces. Right? So just go to show you're saying, oh, and in layman's terms, how this works. So I think what happens is with the help of Twitter, Popeyes, the lower of the two companies has a new product. Yep. And they came at the benchmark product. And

for people too, it's a reflex thing. That's like saying, Ah, you know, you know, fours are better than Chevy, you're gonna get a 50% response. pushing back against that, which creates the momentum that you need. If I'm Chevrolet, you know, saying I'll have have my company say the new, the new Chevy truck kicks on 50s as right. Well, and this brings up an interesting point. In certainly television adverse advertising, we used to see a lot more of

product A versus product B. And they're very tight rules. If you say anything that is not 100% True, or which is subjective, but you're presenting as facts, you can get in a lot of trouble as an advertiser, social media, and I'm going to use the yet

word in this case does not yet have these restrictions. Because we're talking about the end, it's an added bonus, is that once you start the the beef so to speak, you can kind of step back and your fans step in and take over and they can be completely subjective, objective ly, whatever, say, Well, yeah, you know, your chicken tastes like poop. And like, you can't say that on television. But when you have enough people, and I think this is where you're going, when the algos kick in,

you can really make a difference. And probably change people's minds or at least bring something to their attention they had not thought of previously. So there's a conversation out there saying, Well, why did they just get the influencers? To promote the sandwich? I think expensive is too expensive. Not only that, I think now, and I'm having a conversation with another good friend of mine, a very smart guy named mg. I think the kids my daughter's age, she's 15 going on 16 They look

at influencers now. And the same way my generation looked at commercials not to be trusted. Excellent point, we've, we've crossed the Rubicon, we've jumped the shark with the influencers. Right? So once that happens, that makes them invalid or ineffective. So now you can't use an influencer, you can't give the top influencers, say hey, promote my product X and make it boom, because the kids are like my, you're getting a check for that flat tummy tea or, or whatever it is. You're

saying you're pedaling. Yeah. So that's why it doesn't work. So as you laid out, the company can't say, my thing is better than their thing, because of what you're saying, libel reasons and legal reasons, correct? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Very specific. It's probably FTC regulations. And there's a lot of lot of stuff you just can't do. And and I don't think these rules have adopted, although there was one change made that you have to disclose if you're

being paid for something as an influencer. But that disclosure is, you know, almost like the, the fine print that you see underneath the financing for your, you know, the car TV ad, though, you know, it's minimal, but you do have to disclose that now. But that's about that's all all this really changed and may blow my mind because I hadn't really considered this particular example. But that is a very interesting business model they're employing there.

So this is how I think going back to my theory, if I'm Popeyes. I have my people. Scrolling through searching through for who had the bunnies video about our product No, it's a useful idiot Of course. And then I go on say Twitter push the button on this guy yank him trend. Yep. It's authentic cuz this guy's a useful idiot he doesn't know he's saying he's in on the on the work

even better. Narcissism kicks in and you're flying high when you start to get a lot of traction on social media as just a guy with a video. And as we've seen with social media culture, and once one person gets goes viral, it's like a it's literally like a virus. Everybody after that goes buys the product. Makes a video about it so they could possibly go viral Sue Bernays, is Bernays is rolling over in his grave right now. This pick you picking that one I'm putting down here? Okay, I

saw I saw this. When I saw it, I didn't know what I was really seeing. So I started have to dig. But I like I said, when I get this itch on something. And as you know, the show was gonna go somewhere else we had talked about before, just on topic wise. But this thing came and just not the other thing. Not, it didn't knock it out. But it puts it in perspective, we're gonna get there. But let's go to native advertising definition.

So what is a native ad? What makes an ad native again, native advertising is a form of paid media, where the ad experience follows the form and function of the user experience in which it is placed. In other words, if you are on a blog, then the advertisements will look like some of the other blog content now it'll say sponsored, right? Or if you're in Facebook, you know, how many of you guys are in Facebook? Now you see these

infeed ads? Right? You see the sponsored posts, the great CTR declined a great click through rate declined, click through rates have been on a dramatic downtrend. Really, since the very first banner ad impression was recorded. The very first time there was a banner ad on a website, people clicked on it the next day, less people clicked on it, when I mean, it's

that's just that that's how it always goes. And then it goes on a steady decline and advertisers and and media companies have to innovate and figure out new ways to get people's attention. Because again, banner blindness is a very real thing. Yeah, banner blindness. Have you heard that term before? Yes, because I was a part of the industry that created it and oversaw its steady decline. There's one other economic

reason this happens. Why this type of advertising, typically, the way it's always been thought of, is you have 24 hours in a day. And you can have X amount of, of advertisements per slot, or per pod, as they call it. And you can have X amount of pods per hour. And it's a very delicate balance between what people will accept and sit through, or will they switch

away and but the thing is, it's time based. So the Superbowl can only have is probably 30 minutes of commercials over the course of the whole game is probably more, I'm just picking a number 30 minutes of commercials, a number of full minute commercials, 32nd commercials, some that has that are a story. So we'll have four in a row. But if you want to get in there now you're in an actual supply and demand marketplace with the

Internet. How many minutes do you want? It's infinite. So there is it's very hard to create an artificial scarcity of your advertising inventory when you have unlimited inventory. So it demands this is what I found out after running a podcast network that and I always say you cannot monetize the network. We had a very simple version of a Bearnaise strategy, although much more transparent. And that's how we initially made money. But the basic inventory model was flawed from the

outset. And it demands something else to happen if these companies are going to stay in business. So I want to bring up something here. So we spoke about blindness. My generation had a blindness to television commercials. Correct. In the first generation of Internet users develop banner blindness. I think what's happening now is the generation after the millennial has influenced influencer about by a blindness Yep. I went I would say that's I would say that's probably correct.

And that's why we're going back to Popeyes versus Chick fil A. We need the useful at it. You know, of which Twitter is built on, right? Somebody's gonna say something funny about anything on Twitter if you do enough searching, and that's certainly a retweet right there. So what happened is, if I have a product, I'll push it out to the masses, you know, find a useful ad it, put the Twitter machine

behind it. Half the people are gonna think it's funny, they're gonna share other half the people are gonna think, man, I'm funnier than that guy, I go buy the product. And then I make my own video. And then this is self feeding machine. This is very, I'm sorry, go ahead. And then the opposition is going to push back with equal force or more force field on the fire. And this is what we saw, um, I saw this thing pick up. And you know, just for complete clarity. Two weeks ago, I saw my daughter

come in with a Popeyes bag. She didn't eat Popeyes chicken. And you know, and, oh, you can't had this two weeks ago. Right? It was training or her conversation, you were saying the teen age or conversate trivial conversation, it picked up enough steam. And then it now is made it's all way too late night news. So that just goes to show you how this machine works. But let's go into the second clip for native advertising.

So that so either you want to stick out like a sore thumb, or you want to blend in but you don't want to blend in to where you just look like another boring banner ad, you want to blend in and look like content. And native advertising is the ultimate reflection of that because you're not just blending in looking like content, you're blending in becoming content. Okay. And like I said, nobody wants this. Nobody wants to turn

Pinterest into this. And this is what you have to do. If you really want to get click through rates back up, you got to surround the content with ugly obnoxious ads. Nobody wants that. So we talked about this morning native advertising is the thing that is coming on board that is going to change this and make it a lot easier. Gave the stats this morning, but it's really good to reiterate. Consumers look at native ads 52% More than traditional banner ads 52% More than traditional banner

ads. These were eye tracking studies that were done. That's impressive. But what's more impressive is that consumers look at native ads, more than editorial content, the native advertisements on these websites that have started running native advertisements get looked at more than the actual editorial content. And the reason is, is that it's marketers producing the headlines. I'd like to add here that the New York Times opened a native advertising division several years ago, I'm gonna think at

least five years ago, and it is a thriving business. And I'm not I don't know if it may even be so that they're advertorial as we'll call her the native ads are consumed more than than their traditional news. They disclaim it, but it's so small. Again, it's the fine print just keeping within the realms of what's legal. And one other thing to the equation is where's banner ads would deliver a report that said, Well, this banner ad loaded on this computer screen, it could have

been below the fold, it would be below the screen. So he didn't see it. It might have been obfuscated by something else. But that's the best metric we have. It's very poor information. When it and these are established terms. Engagement is a big term for advertising, measurement for statistical analysis of how your campaign is doing. And Twitter will deliver back to Popeyes. Here's how many people retweeted here's how many people sent it, added a friend in their retweet

tag somebody, here's people who made a video. Here's people who wrote a joke. Here's other people who are trending. It is a beautiful setup for this type of campaign. Yeah, so this leads me to ask the question Where Where did nothing come from? The term if saw, we saw that a government agency was set up for this. We spoke about it before. I think it was the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs if I'm not mistaking the nudge division, the nurse division,

but that was broken up. So we saw this in politics, I think even before we thought roll it out into the public realm, or it said the private industry realm and that's why I'm headed With this, this idea. We saw this. Oh, Barack Obama was called the first internet president. I want to say our social media president is that is that fair assessment. That was the setup to hit just in the last part before the election. What I remember is the extreme disappointment with the

relaunch of whitehouse.gov. Everybody went, alright, this is the internet president, you know, where's my White House blog? You know, we're thinking this was going to be complete democracy was going to change. But I will say he was the first one to really have social media accounts, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. So at POTUS was was crud that account was created for Barack Obama. Right. I think the guys behind his team understood this

mentality of tying himself to brands. Now we're about to come full circle here. But to the brands that had to have we're not new brand. It was nostalgia. It was people like Mahatma Gandhi, MLK, Cesar Chavez, anybody that you could relate to whatever gender you were trying to push. Cesar Chavez would be for immigration. MLK, Mahatma Gandhi would be for social justice issues. it right down there was hope and change. It was all part of the same thing.

Right? And even in the clip, that's why I put the clip from trick baby. If you listen to what he said, you said you can't choke hoping to people. Good one. Right. So we're saying these people understand we put this guy and it's not exclusive to the black community. This is all people. It's all about what we tools we need to nudge who we need to nudge. So one of my favorite shows is Mad Men. I don't know if you've seen it

tonight show about advertising in the 1960s and 70s. If you if the listeners haven't heard this show, and if you haven't seen the show, Adam, excellent show. Great writing. And it shows you the you know behind the curtains of advertising. It's a classic. It's it is indeed that good. And this clip, this is Donald Draper speaking on nostalgia. And Teddy told me the most important idea in advertising is new creates an itch. You simply put your product in there as a

kind of calamine lotion. But he also talks about a deeper bond with the product. Nostalgia It's delicate, the potent. Teddy told me that in Greek, nostalgia literally means the pain from an old wound. It's a twinge in your heart. far more powerful than memory alone. Nice one. So nostalgie. And the key point I want to take away from that clip is it's more powerful than memory alone. So it's not about how you remember something. It's about how you

felt about that. That leads me into Barack Obama using these images of people of the past Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, and she was Cesar Chavez. Let's listen to Brock Obama deeply influenced by Mahatma Gandhi. Obama himself is deeply influenced by both Martin Luther King and Gandhi. And when in India, he will be paying homage to the father of the nation at large caught. I might not be standing before you today as President of the United States. Had it not been for Gandhi in the message he

shared and inspired with America. And it was this admiration that saw a special moment during Prime Minister Modi's us was it as Obama personally escorted Modi to the Martin Luther King Memorial. And now the Indian prime minister could reciprocate when the President pays homage at Raj cot. So what we see here is Brock Obama, and we're not picking on

Obama. What we're doing is is showing a public figure aligning himself with another public figure that supposedly had a message or a perception about him about being peaceful, nonviolent resistance, so Social justice issue. So what I'm going here show is if you go and post a tweet with Mahatma Gandhi, on your tweet is going to be perceived a certain way correct or not? Yes. So what Obama did was align himself to these

images the same way. And it creates a certain image about yourself the same way Popeyes did with aligning themselves, you know, with, with images, you know, with propaganda or public relations they were trying to push. Let's listen to Barack Obama to in 2009. One question by students, President Obama had said that his ideal dinner guest would have been Mahatma Gandhi, a person from whom he is hugely inspired. Even during his India visit, Obama spoke of the influence of Gandhi on his life.

So when the American president comes to India, he has made sure that his itinerary includes paying homage here at the Rajghat yeah, great campaign. Right. So he aligned himself and Barack Obama is a very, very intelligent, knowledgeable person. He aligned himself with Mahatma Gandhi, which incident and parallel launch yourself with Martin Luther King Jr. But there's one problem. And this goes back to Donald Draper's point. It's not about your

memory. It's about the field, that twinge in your heart that these images and these figures iconic figures bring up. But let's go and look at my was Mahatma Gandhi a racist. Even after his death, he continues to inspire civil rights movements across the world. But it was Gandhi's early writings in South Africa that have cast a shadow on his legacy. During his speech in Mumbai in 1896, he spoke of the savage half heathen natives who spend their lives in indolence

and nakedness. He used the derogatory slur for blacks in South Africa Kaffir liberally in his writings, some accused Gandhi of believing in the superiority of the Aryan race, thinking that blacks were inferior to whites and Indians. In fact, one of the first legal battles done for twins South Africa, was to demand a separate entrance for Indians and post offices, so they were not classed as blacks. So why do many see Gandhi as an icon of justice? Critics of Gandhi say

that his writings were a mistake in South Africa. contrast with what he wrote in his autobiography later on in life, he effectively tidied up some of his earlier views. But others counter this portrayal of Gandhi. They say that this prejudice was born on for Colonial context, and reinforced by the fact that at this stage, he had had little contact with

Africans. And after serving as a volunteer to engines and news during the Boer War in South Africa, he realized the brutality of White's against blacks and some of his views changed. So hopefully we see what's happening here. It's not about what is true or not. It's all about the image Gandhi. It's about Ms. Gandhi. And then as a political figure, you align yourself with that image, the image and establish or overrides what is factually true. Once you align yourself to that, you get

the machine going behind what the narrative is. And there you have it. Yeah, and you know, I was going to say, as an aside that Twitter is such a great example of this. But this is also kind of what you're seeing with the so called television news networks. They know one thing that the money that these candidates raise is coming to them that they don't know exactly how it's going to be divvied up. And they don't know because there is a spread

over digital now. They, they are already acting like a beef network continuously I might add, to attract the people they want, who will supplement that with with the television equivalent of display of banners, commercials, but who knows what else they I'm sure they have all kinds of cool native advertising deals that you can set up with them and craft and create and under the guise of hey, it's it's a it's official word. Here's a news network which we all know it's not.

And the point I wanted to highlight in this is it's not that Obama didn't know about Gandhi's past. He had he had to no this is this is not like a stuff that was just no secret now, right? This is no secret. Even I'm president of South Africa, Nelson Mandela knew about this and when he was alive, and you know, he kind of said we got to look past that he was a victim. I mean, a product of his times that was that was

excuses like kind of Pooh poohing it. What I'm saying is somebody in that room And this is just what I allege, says you know what? His image is greater than what is fact? Yep, that's what they said. And then how it also works to go back into what we talked about with Chick fil A Popeyes when somebody comes out says, but Gandhi was racist. What's the natural reflex? Are you crazy? You know, what do you mean? It goes it goes both ways. You're right. Yeah. Benefit for

everybody. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and then it makes you bigger. And for the people not in the know, they're like, No, Gandhi MLK, you know, saying that's the association. Yeah. How can he be racist? You know, Gandhi and Nelson Mandela. So how could he be racist? And what it does is what we always talked about before, is the act the politics, they need a good fight. That's what we were talking about before with Kamala Harris and Joe Biden, you need

to raise his beef. They need to beef beef sales. No one nobody wants to see a lopsided contest. It's not good. You cut the football game off at halftime if there's a blowout. It's exactly right. Yeah, this is terrible. Um, but they create these beeps. And let me just say, the classic beef is the so called pole. This is the classic mainstream trick of the beef. Oh, look how close they are. Remember, remember the conversation we had about Kamala

Harris? And I'll tell you it got me because the post debate polls said she's climbing in the polls got a jump. She got a bomb, a bomb. That was what that was. That was the turn. I'm like what? Like, Oh, hold on. Oh, she's climbing. I got nervous. And notice they're not talking about the polls now because she's under 10%. That's right. It's bad. It's bad for business that we see. Just for the sports fans out there. That's why they had to get rid of the Golden State Warriors. That's why they

hate really hate dynasties and sports. They need what is called parity. And this new form of advertising, I believe, creates parity, not only in the political sector, but also the public sector because what the social media companies will do is back the underdog is good to back the underdog. I'm sure. This is just Just what I think. I have no proof of it. I'm sure Twitter probably gave Popeyes a better rate than they were to Chick fil A because guess what? Now Chipotle has to step their

advertising up? Yep. Before it's Chick fil A was the big boss applesauce of the industry. And like we don't have to advertise. We only open six days a week, what are you talking about? But when you create the competitor, yeah, then you're in you're in the game. You have to be now they have to up their buys. You know, we used to do a version of this. I worked at while many radio

stations but the most famous one was Z 100 in New York. And they came in, they weren't even in New York, they were New Jersey at the top of the hour, they would say that broadcasting live across New York majority. It's a really softly but they went from worst to first. And it was it was in a way a social media context where there was a way the underdog were kicking those acids over there, those guys in the fancy towers or wherever. And then we add bumper stickers, and honk your horn for z 100.

And you know that you activated there's a word we'd like to use you activated your listeners to go and promote your station and Z 100 has been well, they're not no longer number one just for changing marketplace, but they were number one for decades. And we've seen this in the faux conspiracy community. Unique they use the elite as the competition to generate you know, the listener base, you know, all this this way they Hey, they don't really give you an answer to who they is. But

this is how it works. So just another example of how Obama and the reason why I'm using Obama is because he everyone, everyone understands this example. It's great. He was the first social media brand to brand Obama, the brand Obama Yeah, first social media president and this is him on Cesar Chavez. And so today we celebrate Cesar Chavez. Cesar would be the first

to say that this is not a monument to one man In. The movement he helped to lead was sustained by a generation of organizers who stood up and spoke out and urged others to do the same, including the Great Dolores Huerta, who is here today drew strength from Americans of every race and every background who marched and boycotted together on behalf of La Causa. And it was always inspired by the farmworkers themselves, some

of whom are with us. This place belongs to you too. But the truth is we would not be here if it weren't for season. You know, I really miss him. I used to love cutting up his his sound bites and stuff. It was great order. Fantastic. Great, great pitch me that yes. Right. So this man Ah, so see she Cesar Chavez. Do you have any background or anything? Or what what what is the use to push what was the word frontman for for the workers for organized labor to bust up evil bosses?

And what is the modern day use for Cesar Chavez? The name of the road in here in Austin? He looks good on T shirts. Now. I guess he would be a be considered the resistance, the resistance and he's used as the face for illegal immigration. Correct? Yes. Hmm. Interesting. Funny how that works. Mo. Funny how that works. Click 15 We maintain every culture is different. It's always been

different. This is why every culture and farmworkers whenever organized before, as long as we have a poor country bordering California, is gonna be ready for the wind strikes. Strikes are one, normally by the unions. With an employer, this is a case right now one of the strikes that we have with the with the beaut gas and oil company where we've closed them down, that have been unable to get strikebreakers or have gotten very few. And then all of a sudden yesterday morning. They

brought into her 20 wetbacks. They started the illegals from Mexico. I don't know much I've only been in Texas for nine years. But I guarantee you using the term wetbacks is not a good idea. But why would you use him for the face of illegal immigration, he was clearly against illegal immigration. He says if you border loans you border on a poor country like Mexico. It's gonna be impossible for union workers to have, you know, form

unions because you basically have these union busters. And he used them to call them a did not derogatory name, and also use the term illegals. So how is it? Once again, Obama was a smart person, his team is full of smart people, those people in that crowd cheering for him. Had to know where Cesar Chavez if you if you're about the cause, well, this is he said the law calls is what he called it right? Which is, yep. Well, it's deeply rooted in nostalgia feeling muscle memory,

training, imagery, memes, all these things play into it. And you know, Chavez specifically has been used throughout the years in so many different movements. That, I guess with poor education, people just don't think about it. And they glom on to the feeling of okay, I feel good about this guy following this, this image.

But there has to be a calculation there. I mean, when you're doing vetting of power for candidates, when you're doing vetting for memes, there has to be a pro and a con on it, you know, or opposition to say, well, that could be used this way. Don't use that term, because that could be perceived this way. I'm just interested about what in that conversation in that room. Somebody had to know who Gandhi really was, who Cesar Chavez really was, and for them to continue and go with it.

Well, you know, yes, again, it comes back to something we talked about initially, it's testing and it's not that hard to do. I mean, it is done every single day. You can see it on YouTube, you know, college campus, reform, whatever it's called, where they ask people questions, and they usually have a bogus question, or something that's obviously dumb, and they all

fall for it. That's just who human beings are. We're shallow there and it of overtime, something's been such as image Cesar Chavez has been moved into resistance leader, you know striving for freedom, these kinds of feelings. Once you identify, it's there, however it got there, then you can use it starting that I think is much harder now, but I don't think today, you could use image Obama for a candidate, maybe in 40 years from now, it could be used again.

I have a different take on that. And you know, I may be wrong, but I think they knew their pitch man was so good that the people will want to believe what he was saying. Even if the facts came up, even even it because the facts always come up in the social media. Sorry, sir. Circle, how somebody's always gonna have a link or reply saying, hey, what about this? Right, you know, you know, saying

more, more so today, more so today. This when Obama came into office 2008 Twitter had really only been around for a year or two, Ashton Kutcher was the first million follower person it was very immature at the time. I feel that and the algos also weren't quite as sophisticated, if at all. That's a fair point. So it's it's it's become easier in some regards today and harder. I think the way I look at it is I think Obama was the influencer in chief agreed. Totally agree. You're running,

you're running. You're running on your, your, your brand, what you're running on literally hope and change, not economics, jobs, you know, any of the traditional things. And man, we were ready for it. That's another thing. We were ready for that? And then he could clean up and say, Nah, God, he's cool, man,

when you talk about, you know, I mean, yeah, Nah, man. Nah. So what I'm just going to say is, I think this came before what we're seeing now, in the private sector, of what we're seeing with the Popeyes versus Chick fil A, they understand that we can have people with a have conversation with taboo, taboo topics, and people's need to be part of the conversation to be part of following something is so strong. They all go over that. That point? Well, let

me stop you right there. Millions of black Americans looked over the point that Barack Obama was not an African American. And took it and took it. And as you've explained previously, second term will do stuff for us took it freely agreed with it. Right. And then what well, he was backed by his wife. Image Image. Yes, exactly. Current Association. exactly know the way Oprah has Steadman, you know, image? Yes, it's all about association. So it's funny that you bring

them up. And we're gonna get into this. The final clip. American factories, Obama's, you guys could do whatever you want. Why did you decide to do what you're doing one way of looking at what we've both been doing for the last 20 years, maybe most of our careers once we left law, it was to tell stories. If you want to be in relationships with people and connect with them and work together with them. You have to know their story. You have to know them.

Yeah, this is the big $65 million Netflix deal. But did you catch them? I mean, what did you take away from that clip? I don't want to ruin it. They're going to tell stories. And it sounded to me like they were going to tell stories about people whose stories they understood, which to me would mean black Americans, and that's who they're going to be targeting.

One before I tell you what, what you missed. It's funny that he his first major project on the Netflix deal that you referenced the $65 million deal was talking about how the Chinese industry practices as affecting a middle America, which That in itself is just really well I didn't know that seeing as he was such a part of shipping everything over to China. Interesting. He's kind of going against the grain now. That and then if you say who will make a movie about me Rural

America being gutted. It wouldn't be Obama. No, because that might be his legacy. That will be his legacy. And you had eight years and you didn't do anything. And really, Trump is the one that is been anti China, if you want to say that. I mean, that's not really a fair assessment what he is, but he'd been pro America and putting strong books at trumpets. Trump has been anti China vocally with the same message since the late 80s.

Yes, I agree with that. So that first that was one thing that caught me on the surface of wow, you making a movie about this? Oh, shoot mechanic? Can I listen to the clip? Again, before you reveal it? I want to see if I catch it this time. Okay. You guys could do whatever you want. Why did you decide to do what you're doing one way of looking at what we've both been doing for the last 20 years, maybe most of our career viewers once we left law, it

was to tell stories. If you want to be in relationships with people and connect with them and work together with them. You have to know their story. You have to know them. Tell stories, tell stories. We tell stories. Telling stories. For the last 20 years I've been I've been telling fables and telling stories, fables on the turntable some shit like that, yes, of course, fables, to connect with the people. It doesn't matter about what my policies are, it doesn't matter about who supports us, it

doesn't matter about anything. If you could tell a great story, and connect with the person, you can sell them anything. And my wife has been a marketer and communications expert all of her career. And this is exactly her words, say if you can tell a story you can get people to buy in and believe. And that's that's what marketers do all day long tell stories, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're giving him the truth, or

educating them. You're telling a story to communicate an idea true, false or indifferent. What it does is it lowers that wall down. And just to bring this full circle, where we're at. Once you lower that wall down of No, when people try to say You sound as natural, they have a barrier there. Because it's like you're trying to separate me from my money, which your money is your power, right?

So you're trying to separate with me, once you are able to lower that wall down, and that's the whole theory of this whole episode. They use the useful, useful ADA to lower that barrier down. The influencer has that barrier there. The pitch man has that barrier there. The camera TV commercial has that barrier there. Now they had a new tool, and that's the useful ad online. That barrier is not naturally there. And you you believe them?

You know when you buy a sandwich saying, Hmm, that was good. He's not getting paid by Popeyes. It must be really good. You know, and then when you fast forward and look at Obama, what'd he say? We've been telling stories. He gets up there gives you a great, wonderful story. You lower that barrier down. Now we can say the pitch. It doesn't matter about who you know what my policies are. It doesn't matter, helping change how you quantify that you can't?

Well, you know who else is a good storyteller on today's stage? Of course, of course. Kamala Harris is fantastic storyteller. And you know who else is Mr. Donald Trump? Oh, he's that's why he can go for hour and a half. It's as an elephant. He doesn't know how to nudge subtly but yeah, he can. That's right. And he's got your nostalgia make America great. Again, literally calling back to nostalgic times. Although misinterpreted by many. Yeah, great storytellers. That's

yeah, that's, that's what you need. That's interesting, which it's interesting about Trump, because he truly is the first internet president, Barack Obama was incapable of the interpersonal type of communication style or dialogue even that is necessary to make social media work. Now it was there were no examples. It was early to I don't think he really no, there was no one who really understood how that work at the time. And the basing on old metrics. Trump figured I think

he's already always known this make a lot of noise. Big noise, big, big any No, and he's very good. Scott Adams, the Dilbert cartoonist, wrote a book about persuasion and how Trump was going to win. And he predicted it based on Trump's persuasion techniques, which goes right back to the beginning of this program. The Edward Bernays. Yes, and for lack of a better term, Chuck is the useful idiot in this situation. The reason why I say that is not in the how

that sound. But he's had a pain on everything. So he doesn't appear to be an influencer. It's natural. When he says something is naturally received, because he has opinion on everything. So he's perceived the same way. As the guy that Popeyes we used to say, Oh, this guy, you know, just as another blogger, he's just a Twitter guy with a lot of followers. Right? Yeah. He's not trying to say you suck. I mean, he's not that's not would be his role. He says what he says and what he feels, that

will be the perception. That's Brock. Obama goes to tweet. Yeah, it's an agenda base. Yes. With with bullet point. Right. Yeah. So I mean, that we're seeing, it's amazing how we've seen these. Is it the dog, the dog wagging the tail of the tail wagging the dog? Well, you made another great point. It works both ways. It benefits both sides, just like Obama benefited Gandhi retros retroactively?

Well, the question I asked is, are the advertisers looking back and looking at studying Trump like, how was he so successful? Yeah, he doesn't come across as an influencer, that the conversation may have. I don't know. I don't have more of a question. But well, I think I think generally accepted is that it was the beef. It was an ongoing beef situation. And here came the under hurricane Popeyes of politics. Donald Trump lumbering along and he

goes, Hey, you guys suck your chicken sandwich. No, good. No, it's bad. It's sad. And then that it turned into a media frenzy. And it was Donald Trump 24/7 throughout the entire election cycle. And he was the Popeye's of that election. Sleepy Joe Pocahontas. Low Energy jab. I mean, he was. Well, he had he had the branding down to that's all part of the, of the persuasion game. And that's, that's the clap back. That's a slap down whatever you want to call it.

That was the point I'm making that he lacks himself on to Jeb Bush, if Jeb Bush would have brushed him off and paid him no attention. He can't win. Right. But he made that attack so potent, that you have to reply back. And when you've done that, you brought him to your level and then in they then you don't have the leverage anymore. Yeah, so here's the challenge. Here's the challenge for

companies like Twitter. And I agree, that's obviously that's where I mean, we're going to see almost $2 billion of digital advertising for this entire election, 6.8 billion in total, of which just under 3 billion goes to television, and there's a piece to radio and print etc. But still almost 2 billion for for digital. They've got to keep that in in check. They got to keep it in track if they're using these types of campaigns. And, and I cannot thank you enough for bringing this

particular one to my attention. Moreover, because of the sensitivity of the topic, which I'd still like to explore how that's working out, they have to control the messaging. And I envision them having a dashboard with dials, that artificially creates what Donald Trump was able to do by himself amazingly, but you dial it up a little bit, bring some some pro people in it, sprinkle in a little bit of contrast, dial it back a bit, it's moving too far, the algorithms they use and these

are just levers it's literally like a like a mixing board. They can mix that they can mix in these levels that you're seeing in your feed is very powerful stuff and very, very hidden and tricky and kind of not nice.

But you're from the advertising world. And I would want to say this one thing you can't create a good salesman no matter what you can't create a good sales so that's the that's the one thing is that you can't manufacture so they are in fact it's funny you say that every company I have run or owned the sales team. Not the same, but we're often like

Donald Trump. It's the kind of person and they can these the great sales people and sell almost anything is costly, authentic, not authentic, positive sense of the word but without any positive or negative. There's this authentic. And that goal just to close this out. If going back to the show Mad Men, Donald Draper was that kind of person. He would be all out and out all night whoring drinking asleep in his office. And they may go wake him up. You're saying he shave.

Welcome to the royal give your speech page on bam. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, he was the best authentic in his own way. Absolutely. So is the American factory is that the name of the production company? The Obamas have noticed the name of their their first film. Oh, okay. And I don't know anything about it. Is there anything? Is it out yet? Yes, it's out. And it's China's influence on I can't believe I haven't. So why have I not heard of this? Why am

I not watching it? What's going wrong with their marketing? I don't know. That's a good question. I one thing is the people that want to talk about this on the wrong side of the argument. I wonder why. Why. I have a theory why. But I think this is for the Joe Biden crowd. Right. So the message is not getting to me. Right. I think this is more for the Joe Biden crowd. You know, Sam, for those people that may be pro Trump but willing to swing and Joe Biden to show and it cleans up Joe's

trying to mess Yeah. I can't I can't believe that, that Obama is is doing that. I mean, yeah, well, I guess he'd wants to preserve his legacy through Joe. But geez. Well, they probably said, Hey, man, you got to give us this one. They're hurting right now. I mean, I mean, you brought it up. I mean, they can't let Oh, I'm clipping the clock run again, man. She's gonna swoop in before you know it. She'll be all over us. mo, mo, this was fantastic. It reminded me a lot of things that

I've studied in the past that I was I have applied as well. It was great to bring this back. And man, you blew my mind about the about the chicken conversation? And what I'd like to know is do you think that this this is now going to become more acceptable? To discuss thanks to this? What chicken? You're like? No, I don't. It was it was never about that. No, I know. But isn't it what I think is is? This is why I think, one, I think for certain people, this conversation will never be a

comfortable conversation with any stereotype. I think that's the same thing you see it with, not to list out certain ways you see, with certain groups, we don't try to talk about our power influence. We don't like to talk about our, you know, our intelligence in certain subjects, you know, it's very uncomfortable. So I don't think you will ever be comfortable. I think this was a masterpiece of a nudge, because it broke that

threshold. That's the what, that's what I wanted to point out is the natural reflex to say, I don't want to talk about this. But if so. Ah, such No, such a powerful wave that you get sucked up in it. I think, I think when Twitter or whoever goes back, and they can show it every other people, they sell advertisements who like, look, we were able to break this taboo threshold didn't Well we could do for your company. I think that was the play the play in place. I agree.

And I'm very curious now to see if they're going to try and replicate this with other taboo topics. I can already think of a couple which I'll withhold but and some may already be brewing, which I haven't seen yet. And maybe other people figure this out, and start doing it with their own properties. Because I think that's where airbrush Edward Bernays was able to say like, bro, I got limits smoking cigarettes.

And that's exactly how he said it to. Just imagine that. Well, this has been fantastic mo I always learned so much chatting with you. I love it. It's fantastic. I'm glad you enjoy and I hope the listeners did too. Yeah. And beware of the nudge. It's not like society where of the nudge indeed. A quick mention that we are now running this on To the value for value system, that means you just listened for about an hour and 25 minutes, did you get any

value out of it? If you did translate that into money. You could have spent an hour and a half watching a Netflix movie for $5 for 99. You know, consider donating that to the show so that Moe and I can continue to produce it does take effort we're putting value in. We'd like to get value back and we'll be talking more about that in future episodes, you can donate to the show at MoeFactz.com M O E F A C T Z .com through Paypal or cash app. All right, Moe, thank you again.

As always, it's a pleasure. And I always say pay attention to everything and the truth will reveal itself. And make sure you subscribe to this podcast and your your podcast app. And we always tweet out new episodes so please let everybody know retweet that and get the message out. We'll talk to you next week. Thanks again most talk to you soon man. All right, see you later. All right, bye bye.