How to Take Control of Your Emotions - Joe Hudson - #1045

Joe Hudson, welcome to the show. Thanks, Chris. Good to see you, man. Feels different to speak to you now. Yeah, I bet. It feels different. The audience will know that I spent... long week with you uh at your intensive retreat yeah um so yeah to now sit down back in my domain after having spent a week desperately trying to survive in yours feels

It feels somewhat different. Yeah. It was great to have you there. It was a very strange, very meaningful experience, especially given that it's completely sober. There's a lot of... talk of how important it is to how popular it is at least to do the psychedelic trip down to costa rica or the ayahuasca dmt thing like you can get pretty far without having to add

anything in except for a morning coffee if you've got the right container and practices yeah the i don't know if you've ever seen the data on the work but uh We change negative self-talk by a standard deviation across all the participants and the neuroses drops by a little less than a standard deviation. So yeah, cool stuff can happen. Harvard, who's doing the study?

There's a researcher who worked at Harvard. She no longer does. And then we had somebody at Columbia who's doing it. And we just now have another person doing another research project on us. That doesn't surprise me. Quantum physics from Oxford. There's a new person who's at least talking to us about it. We haven't figured out what we're doing yet. One of the questions that came up after we spent a week together was, is it hard to live in the real world with an open heart?

That was one of the first questions that I thought of. It's hard not to, is my experience.

feels better with a closed heart. So we have this thing that our brain does that tells us that, oh, I'm gonna get hurt or I'm gonna get in trouble or I'm gonna... get taken advantage of if i close my heart or if i don't close my heart if i don't protect myself and but there's not a tremendous amount of evidence for that like gandhi didn't get taken advantage of or martin luther king didn't get taken advantage of

A really open-hearted mother doesn't particularly get taken advantage of. Some might, some might not, but they're not really correlated. And so my experience is that if you close your heart down, it hurts. It's just painful. And we talk about it a lot in our society is like, if you don't forgive, then you're punishing yourself. That would be like the typical way to say it. But my experience is just anytime that my heart starts closing down, it hurts.

Why do we do it? We're scared of love. I mean, that's one of the things that I think you must have noticed in Groundbreakers, is that on some level you could... say almost everybody there was had been entrained in love in some way that was not useful and so now they're scared of it so like love came with guilt and therefore love isn't safe or love came with getting smothered or love came with criticism or love obligation obligation and therefore love is scary not

But at the same time, we definitely want love. We're born wanting love. Little kids are like, give me attention, give me love. That's what they want. And so we have this desire for it, but then when we get it, it comes with this something that's toxic or not good. And then we're like, oh, shoot, we're scared of love. And to some degree, that's all of it. It's like I can see almost all humans kind of doing this with love.

The most pronounced one is jealousy. You know, like if I'm in a relationship and a person with me is, and I'm jealous. On one level, I'm like, I want you, I want you, I want you. And on one level, I'm like, I'm going to criticize you and make you feel wrong and bad and I'm pushing you away. And this is what I see almost everybody's doing with love in their life.

with themselves as well i mean even in loving themselves they're doing that so we have that pattern i think uh is it hard to live in the real world with an open heart yeah uh it came to me as a question because it was pretty easy to do it Within the container of this very gentle, very understanding, very... Check it out. You just said it's like gentle and understanding. But right before that, you said intense.

Like hardcore, like the way you said it wasn't like everyone wasn't going to be like, yeah, I want to go do that. That sounds like fun. It was like, no, that shit's intense. So how do you put those two things together? Well, the dauntingness, I think, of fully being seen is to do with it being alien. It's to do with it being unfamiliar. It's to do with a level of transparency and openness that you're not used to. And it must be like being a...

For want of a better example, like a mistreated puppy or something. And this puppy has been taught that every time somebody raises a hand at it, it should cower away because it's going to get hit. But this time the hand gets raised and it gets a pat on the head and it needs to learn over time.

cowers less and less and less, and then it actually learns to love the hand that comes down toward it. Yes, that's exactly what it is. That's so cool. But you're de-patterning that response takes time. So that's the daunting side, the daunting and intense side. The reason that I said the real world was

There was a story the first day that we came out, me and one of the other guys went for a massage. She said bodywork would be a really good idea. This beautiful, peaceful, very calm reception waiting area of the Thai massage parlor in a sleepy village in Sonoma County. was too intense that we had to leave and go outside. There's like a little USB plugged in waterfall.

plink plonk music playing in the background like we we're gonna we're gonna go stand in the courtyard because we're like i kind of i don't know what the fuck's what did you call it uh not spirit sick not dope sick Like something hangover, spirit hangover? Oh, vulnerability hangover? Maybe. I use that word a lot. I feel it was something else thick as well. Anyway, we go outside. What it made me realize is that...

There's one level of difficulty, which is within a safe container, learning that the hand is going to come and pat you, not beat you. The next one is now going out into a world filled with hands. And those are two different skills. It's the same skill, but a very different kind of skill set. Does this make sense? It totally makes sense to me. Dig into that. Yeah, so there's so much there.

So if I look at a pattern that I'm holding in my life, I have three ways that I hold that pattern in my life. One of the ways is that I attract it. So let's say I have a pattern of... feeling highly criticized. One of the ways that I'm going to attract it is I'm going to be attracted to and want critical women in my life or critical bosses in my life.

So I'm just going to notice, wow, all my girlfriends criticize me all the time, just like my mom did or some version of. But I'm attracted to it. One way is that I manipulate people into doing it. Right. So some way in which somebody is not criticizing me, I am going to like fish for the criticism or I'm going to do something that I know is going to make them criticize me or I'm going to.

be a little needy about something that's going to make them push me away and criticize it. And then the last one is I'm going to prove somebody's criticizing me even when I'm not being criticized. you might say, oh, hey, you're not parked straight because you don't, but for me, that means I...

parked all fucked up and you criticized me. I've never been a good parker. Yeah, exactly. Like I'm going to make meaning out of that. I call that mapping. So you're manipulating people to do it. You're attracting it. And you are proving it because you're looking at the cases where it's true. You're not looking at the cases that aren't true. And so we go out into the world. And so you go into for a week long with us and all of a sudden.

the patterns don't work anymore. And then you go out into the world, but you're used to doing a particular thing in the world, which is mapping. this pattern and so all of a sudden you're like wait how do i how do i interact with the world yeah and so we've had people come out like you said like i have a hard time sitting in this massage parlor we've had people come out and literally

call us from a grocery store and say, I don't know what to buy anymore. Whole Foods was the tip of the spear of difficulty for people. Exactly. And so it's just like, oh, I'm not in my pattern, so how do I operate anymore?

it's a little bit like shaking the etch-a-sketch i think yeah and it's sort of it's it's more blank one of the other things i think i noticed that like i'm thinking about your audience for a minute and i'm thinking like they might have no idea what we're talking about because there's no There's not a lot of experience of, oh, I saw the world one way and a week later I see the world a different way. You have to assume that to understand the conversation that we're having.

All of a sudden, I thought that I had to be protected, but I realized that life is a lot better if I'm not protected. Now I have to learn how to do that in the real world. That's it. That's it. That's it right there. And yeah, it's so funny. When you hear people talk about a religious experience or a transformational experience or a near-death experience or, you know, whatever it is that they've done.

From the outside, because you don't have that frame of reference, it's confusing, it's easy to mock. It's like, what the fuck is this person talking about? I have no frame or context or whatever. It's a bit of me.

that because I'm inside of that, I'm taking for granted. I'm like, I might just sound so mental. I think this is relatively mild, I think, in the world of like, I saw a thing and this thing, whatever. It's like, I realized that I didn't need to be as... stiff and spiky as I used to and that the sensitivity that is always inside of me is something that I don't need to necessarily hide and actually might make

my world and other people's worlds a better place. And the very thing I wanted, which was for people to like me might occur more, the more that I show that. the less so I wanted to show you this so I just like total tingles in my whole body because I'm like that that's that's why I love my work is to hear that exact thing so thanks for sharing that okay so I'm uh I have this episode that I recorded in New York a couple of weeks ago called John Bellion.

He's one of the most legendary producers of our era. He's done billions of streams, Justin Bieber, Ed Sheeran. He's a solo artist himself. He released an album called Father Figure.

It's about him becoming a dad. It's about his reflections on his relationship with his dad, who was a super father, this sort of very strange- almost role model you know like people talk about i have a super successful father and i need to be as powerful as him yeah this was different this was i had a really amazing dad and i have to live up to being like as attuned and supportive and this sort of other type of

intimidation, I suppose. And I was in the shower this morning. I played this song in the car yesterday, but I didn't listen to the lyrics. And it's a song that just passed me by when I was doing my prep for the episode. And I knew I wanted to talk about living with an open heart. And in this song...

So I'm in the shower this morning. I cried at this song every single time I've heard it. So we'll see if it happens again now. Okay. But I wanted you to, I'm going to spin the lyrics around and we'll play the song. It's also going to get us popped on YouTube, but I don't give a fuck because it's sufficiently important that I think it matters.

I'm scared to meet you cause then I might know you Then once I know you, I might fall in love Once I'm in love, then my heart is wide open So I love anything, anything, anything at all If the higher I fly is the further I fall, then why love? Stressed and strong out about things that could happen. I can move mountains with a worry I've done. my father and he started laughing so you think it's bad now until you have a song oh yeah

Give me your thoughts on that. Well, yeah, my thoughts are that somehow or another the... The heartbreak is bad. That's the assumption in the song, that somehow the heartbreak is bad, but heartbreak is something I look forward to. It's a bold claim. It is until you realize that every time your heart breaks open, it increases your capacity to love. Do people not get their hearts broken so badly that they close off?

Is that not what trauma is? People get their hearts broken so badly that they... Yes, that happens, but I think that's more because they're avoiding the pain, not because their heart's broken. Like we're wired. There's like some pretty good studies about this. Like we're, we're wired to find awakening for lack of a better word or enlightenment or peace through going into the pain.

So if you look at what we did in the week-long, we're constantly going into the thing that we think that we're scared of, that is the pain, the thing that we've been avoiding, and the more you go into it. the better you feel the the the more open you are the the less weight you're carrying around with you the less worry you have the less anxiety the less anger that's what we're wired for and if you look at the studies on people who

go into their depression instead of avoiding it and make through. They're far less likely to ever get depressed again. And so we're designed for that. That's how human beings operate. If you go into the pain, it's the same as if you're working out. To me, the question is like, why work out why work out why work out at all it hurts when i work out why work out at all like that's what i'm hearing when i see that thing it makes no sense once you realize that that

pain is the most direct path to your freedom when it's accepted and loved. When it's avoided, it's absolute hell. When it's resisted, it's absolute hell. So I get it. Like, I get why people are like, I don't want to feel that. And then they can avoid it. And then it just sits in the background and rips you apart. So that's how I think about it. And it's, by the way, for that.

that man it's the same thing for parenting like the thing about parenting that's really cool for me is like it's a like a deep tissue massage parenting is like a deep tissue massage if you resist you're fucked It teaches you, you do not have control. The thing that you think you are is not what you are. Your sense of identity is going to be crushed.

That's the good news about parenting. That's the thing I'm so incredibly grateful for as my kids now are 16 and 20. I'm just like, oh, I got crushed. That's the amazing thing. All that stuff that I thought I was, that was actually just this cause of pain, long-term pain, just got annihilated so that I could find out what I truly am, the thing that couldn't be annihilated.

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Sort of coming up for me, like that the pain is in the resistance of that, the fling of it. You said somebody that goes into their depression as opposed to away from it. Yes. Can you talk about the distinction between the two? approaches that they're going into versus they're going away from or the resisting versus that yeah so like when i like i hit my depression i think it was like in around 35 or something like that

And the way I think about depression is on the intellectual level, it's just extreme negative self-talk. And on an emotional level, it's repression of anger and sadness, typically. A lot of it anger. And then... there's a lack of connection that's happening and like with interpersonal connection that happens like you don't feel that depth of connection that occurs and on a nervous system level you're just constantly under attack and so eventually your adrenal glands

give up and the attack is coming from within so when that happens for a prolonged period of time that's the way i see depression so then you're there and and when you're there you have some symptoms and the symptoms are this is never going to go away i'm horrible like there's just all this doom and gloom and why even try and life has no meaning and all that's the symptoms of the depression and so

What some people do is they're like, how do I avoid myself? And the other way to do it is to say, well, what's actually really going on here? Who am I really? What really makes me depressed? What are those thoughts really? Are they true? Where do they come from? What do they sound like? It's like a deep wondering, a curiosity. And so to some degree that depression is...

There's this great saying that I've heard recently, which is, the best gift we can give to our kids is making them feel like it's safe to be themselves. The depression is all the places you weren't safe to be yourself that you are currently judging. So what is it to lean in and understand those things? Those things that you never...

got to express, that you never got to explore, that you never got to go into, that wasn't safe to be those emotions, those thoughts, and then see what it's like to actually reparent yourself in that way. That's what I mean by going into it. Would you say to somebody who thinks, okay, I believe you. I am convinced that this is the route to go into. I'm sick of abandoning myself. Yeah. But I'm scared. Yeah. That fear, which I think is.

much of what we were dealing with yeah in the week that we spent together which is you're scared of doing this thing and you will find out that if you do it on the other side of it is nothing to fear nothing nothing maybe bliss yeah maybe you know connection maybe wonder or maybe actually just oh there was nothing there um but even now having had the week intense 12 hours a day like it's not as if that

lesson has been permanently locked into my brain yeah that fear is continuing every single time to come up i'm like fuck i'm gonna play this song it's gonna make me tear up and they're like what people are gonna say on the internet i'm gonna look silly and it's gonna be blah blah and like right but you're doing it That fear, what would you say to somebody who is currently paralyzed by that fear? I'd say, of course you're scared. It's okay. I'm right here with you.

The thing about somebody who's depressed in that way is they're constantly being told that they're not okay the way they are. Their friends are coming to them and saying, you should do this and this and this, and you should go, and now you could listen to what I'm saying. goddammit why don't i just stop avoiding myself i'm fucking up like and but what's not happening is no one's just saying you're cool the way you are i got you like this is it i don't need you to be different

There's a really cool story, and I think I shared it at the retreat, but I can't remember. But there was this Quaker guy who had this really strong sense of community, went into a depression. And everybody came over to his house because he had this community and they were just telling him what he should do to get out of the depression. And none of it helped. Because he said they were just agreeing with the voice in my head that there was something wrong with me.

But one guy came in every Tuesday at noon and washed his feet. And he was just giving this expression of like, you're, you, I, I will. I will go against the voice in your head. I will go against what you think. And I will show you that you're worthy just as you are. And that's the... That's the journey. The journey is going from I have to do something to be worthy and lovable to I am worthy and lovable. And when that journey happens, when you...

The weird part is, is that everything that you tell yourself that you aren't worthy and lovable for changes when you think you're worthy and lovable. That's the weird part, or at least 95% of it does. Because you're doing all that stuff that makes you unworthy because you are trying to avoid that feeling in yourself in that moment. Interesting you had that, I think, the first ever.

episode we did it was um like how to see the matrix uh look at the things that you don't want to happen in your life realize that all of your patterns are creating that exact thing to occur yes the thing that you're afraid of is the thing that you're manifesting basically literally making happen yes and um increasingly When I look at anybody, literally anybody, especially people that are proficient or specialized in a particular way or extraordinary or hard charging in one particular way.

what they are is almost always the inversion of what they fear they're not so like look at how beautiful this person is they feel so ugly on the inside right look at how successful this person is they feel like such a failure look at how well known and well-renowned this person is so terrified of being abandoned. Look at how competent this person is, they feel useless. It is just what you are, not for everybody, but for...

a lot of people. What you are is this huge, big compensatory mechanism for the lack that you feel on the inside. This person's really clever or it's because they feel stupid. Yeah. yeah and apparently almost a necessary step maybe not to that degree but almost a necessary step

On some level, the mind starts off with, once you do this, it'll be like, once I make enough money, once I'm powerful enough, once enough people love me, once I'm famous enough, once I'm... And then you get there and there's no there there. And so for a lot of people, that step is necessary just so that they can actually do the real work.

idea, unteachable lessons. I mentioned it to you before. Fame won't fix your self-worth. Money won't make you happy. You don't love that hot girl. She's just good looking and difficult to get. You should see your parents more. You should spend more time in a hammock. You will regret working so much. You can cut toxic people out of your life. Like all of these insights are cliche and people roll their eyes at how trite they are. But that doesn't explain why anybody who's recently realized them.

proclaims them with the renewed grandiose ceremony of someone who's gone through religious revelation. It's like, if it was so obvious, why does everybody proclaim it so ardently? Unless there is some weird conspiracy to pull the ladder up after yourself. Maybe you could make the claim of that around like fame and money, but like around. dating the wrong person or around seeing your parents more or something um it just it wouldn't make sense so i'm kind of fascinated by this question of can you

How much can you speed run this? How much can you leapfrog going through the, I learned the hard lessons the hard way. Like I disregarded the lessons of previous generations, but actually I'm going to take it this time as opposed to believing you can dance through the minefield without kicking tripwire.

Yeah, that's a great... I do think there are lessons that you just have to learn yourself. You have to go through it for sure. I think about, to some degree, when I think about what we're doing for that... for the week long or really any of our courses that are all equally intense. What we're doing is we're showing what true north is. We're like, oh, you've tasted it now.

You have the taste, so you know it's possible. And we have total faith that you will slowly get there or quickly get there. But once you know it, you're like, oh, I don't want to live a different way. Once I see it, I don't want to live a different way. So to some degree, that's the experience that we're doing. We're giving that experience so people can know that it's possible for them.

because you can only learn a lesson by actually experiencing it. At the same time, there is a weird hack, which is if you feel deeply loved and accepted, it like... you don't have so many minds in the minefield. Right? Whether you're loving yourself or you happen to be one of those very lucky people with a great father who showed that unconditional love.

to the person or you happen to have a friend who gives you unconditional love, that can speedrun a whole bunch of stuff because you see, oh, that's actually what I'm looking for. The other thing I'm not really looking for. I suppose if you've had a belongingness desert, if you've been sort of bereft of that. Correct. Most people. you have no idea what North looks like. Correct. Yeah. From my experience, I had a meditation retreat. My wife required us to do a 10-day silent retreat.

To get married. That was part of her requirement. Are you sure she just didn't want a break from you? Yeah. She did it with me, so probably also. Yeah. I mean, I'm with him, but thank God. Shut up. I have a good story about that. I'm going to divert and then I'll come back.

I took my, my daughter wanted to do a meditation retreat and I kind of tried to tell her not to. She was like 9, 10 at the time or something like that. But she was hardcore. Really wanted to, three days. So. we had a friend who had a retreat center they agreed we went and did it and like we finished the whole thing and i was like so what was your favorite part of the retreat and she said she said she said it was the side

No, it was the fact that you couldn't tell me what to do for three days. Unreal. Yes, let's go. But in that retreat, that silent retreat, I had this eight seconds of... awareness of who i was like the truth of who i was it took me another 15 years to be living that way on a daily basis to understand that as a as a way of being rather than an eight second experience

But it was like my North Star and it pulled me through. One of the things that would have made that a lot more efficient is to have experienced unconditional love. But I had nothing around me that was that. Tara hadn't learned it. I hadn't learned it. And so, you know, we just had to learn it step by step. But that does a lot because when you have unconditional love for yourself...

There's no compulsion to get wealthy. You might get wealthy, but there's no compulsion to get wealthy or to get famous. Because I will dot dot dot. Because they're all surrogates for the thing that we actually want. Yeah. Just talking about stories about parents and kids, John, on the episode that we recorded, was saying he refused to tour. He doesn't tour anymore.

um because he just wants to be with his kids you know he's he lives on long island and the the biggest recording artists in the world come to his house and like sit in the studio and he just loves it but he did a couple of shows two shows sold out back to back um And it was at the stadium that's a 15-minute drive from where his house is. And he just totally optimized for minimum time away. How can I play them?

largest show possible with the least amount of time away from my family. We only rehearsed for like three days, all this stuff. One of the shows, his son was backstage and they'd set up this little play. pen area for him and you know john is finally performing after a big hiatus And he gets to bring his son, who is of an age where he can start to work out what the fuck's going on. He must be like five, something like that, maybe. And...

He finishes up and he's sort of doing it for his family. He's even done it in the manner that is most apt. to facilitate his family. So he's really tried to warp himself to make this as like family friendly as possible. He finishes up and he gets off stage and he says to his son, he's like, what did he think? What did he think? And his son goes. I didn't like it. And he's like, why? That's what I mean. That's why I love kids. Why didn't you like it?

And he's like, well, the first song was okay, but then you just kept singing. And you kept singing and you kept singing. And I just thought, when's dad going to be done singing so he can come play with me? And I was like... So cool. When's dad going to be done singing so he can come play with me? Your son, you've just played 20,000, 25,000 people sold out around the corner from your house, the hometown city, all of the thing, brought it back home.

constructed it, got the van, brought the kids, do the playpen out back, do the thing. Son was just like, Dad, when are you going to be done so you can come back and play with me? Yeah. Don't give a fuck. 25,000 people couldn't care less orchestra world for billions of straight. No, go fuck yourself. Like I got a power ranger here and he's waiting for you. Like, ah, that's unconditional. Yeah. I want you. I want you.

Don't care about any of this. It was you. Sick. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I mean, that's, yeah. And if you feel that. from somebody if you and you and you let it in which is also a trick to let that unconditional love in a lot of the things that we think we want so i want to be wealthy well what makes you what's the need behind being wealthy well it's security well what's the need behind security

Oh, it's so that I can feel safe. What's the need behind feeling safe? And if you start just going down all those wants, eventually you'll start seeing it's like, oh, it's like I'm looking for a deep connection with myself and others. That's what we're looking for. That we're looking for some sense of meaning, some sense of deep connection from self and others. And neurologically speaking, we also know that to be true. We're looking for that sense of happiness and that sense of meaning.

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in the bathroom and you asked if she was pissed off oh yeah yeah i this is yeah this fucking blew my head off and i think i really want you to tell it yeah so my my so it's my youngest daughter she's in the bathroom she's crying i go in to hang out with her And at some point I'm like, I don't think you're sad. I think you're pissed. And she goes, I am. I was like, well, how often when you're sad are you really pissed? She's like, about half the time. She's like nine.

And I was like, well, why? Why don't you just be pissed? And she said, because Esme, the older daughter, if I get pissed, she just hits me. But if I get sad, she does what... I want her to do. Bro. I don't think I've ever heard a better explanation.

of why people transmute anger into sadness. They don't get mad, they get sad. They turn this displeasure outward to displeasure inward because sadness is- pro-social and it causes people to come and take care of you whereas anger is anti-social it causes people to run away yeah fucking brilliant which is strange because i think like there's a i'm sure a lot of your audience they are or they deal with somebody who is

who is angry, has like a temper on them. And one of the things that I've noticed is that when somebody has that temper and then somebody... get scared of the anger then the anger usually grows because what's happening there is the person who's angry is like i'm out of control i don't feel safe I feel helpless and I don't want to feel helpless. And so I'm getting angry and then they're getting abandoned. Like, oh, and then they get even more angry because they feel even more helpless.

I think there's a difference as well. I was telling you about this conversation I had with Charlie Hooper, and he's talking about people that move from victimhood status to action agency status to emotionally in tune status. It looks like you're actually going backward because previously you were also kind of ruled by your emotions, but not through transcending and including and alchemizing them.

but through them just being the winds of the day that sort of blew you around without you being able to step into them. And I think maybe sort of raw, unaware anger. is not too dissimilar to that. You know, somebody who's raging and breaking things and unable to sort of hold themselves together. I'm interested in that arc between instinctual anger and intuition like intuitive anger perhaps yeah maybe that's the wrong terminology yeah so the way i think about it is like we have these

Let's call it like a tube of an energy running through us, and we'll call this one anger. And then if you kind of kink it one way, it's nice dress. Or if you kink it another way, it's I'm going to be late.

and I'm going to be passive aggressive. You can't get another way. It's yelling, it's screaming. But in any of the cases, there's shame around the anger instead of what the anger actually it is when you... when it starts moving fluidly in your system is it's a cause for action and a cause for boundaries so when i notice that i'm angry now i'm like oh i'm angry i'm like oh there's a boundary that needs to be drawn

I know there's a boundary that needs to be drawn somewhere. There's some way in which I am, there's something I care about that I'm not standing for and I need to stand for it. Yeah, let's talk about boundaries. Pop.

psychology favorite word of the world people weaponizing it from their couples counseling you've crossed about this is me holding a boundary no it's not you being an asshole like yes um what do good bad boundaries look like how do slippery malleable pliable boundaries turn into anger give me the give me the equation there yeah so uh boundaries the the two easy ones

to say for boundaries is the first one is that you're not ever telling somebody else what they're supposed to do. That's a power struggle. It's not a boundary. It's you telling them what you're going to do. Okay. Can you give me an example of the former and the latter? Yeah. I'm going to draw what I would say is a power struggle boundary, not a real boundary, would be every time you get angry, I'm going to punch you in the face. Or every time you get angry...

you need to leave the house. Every time you get angry, you need to apologize to me. You need to stop yelling. Whereas the other one is, every time you get angry, I'm going to leave the house. Every time you get angry, I'm going to ask you to stop yelling at me. And if you don't, I'm going to leave the house and I'm going to come back in 20 minutes. And then we can continue the conversation unless you yell at me again. And then I'm going to do the same thing.

So one is, this is what I'm going to do. I'm the one that gets to choose for me. I'm not choosing for you. So that would be one really good thing about a boundary. If you're doing anything where you're telling somebody else what they have to do, it's not a boundary.

It's a power struggle. And it just shows that you're in fear and shame. You're basically passing fear and shame back and forth in the relationship. The second one is, and this is the one that will bend people's minds when they try it, is... Whatever the boundary is, it makes it that I'm more capable of loving you, no matter what your response. So it opens my heart to you.

A great boundary opens my heart to you because it's very, very hard for us to love anything that we think oppresses us. So if I draw a boundary that opens my heart, it means that I no longer see you as the oppressor. It's, oh, I have the capacity to do what I need to do here and take care of myself, which means that you can't oppress me. So that's how I teach how to draw boundaries.

And what happens when you don't enforce the boundaries? Well, there's nothing to enforce because it's just what you're doing. Okay, well, what happens if you don't do what... your boundary would suggest that you're supposed to do or don't say that that's going to happen what happens when they're too pliable like what's the oh yeah so that's that's okay so that's a cool thing about boundaries so what happens is

If somebody is scared that they're not going to maintain their boundary, what typically they'll do is they'll either do it really, really harsh. They'll be like, I'm going to leave you every single time. You yell at me. I'm out of the door. They'll do something like that, which unfortunately makes it harder for the person who's hearing the boundary to hear the boundary and more of a resistance going on. So you're saying, oh, I'm scared. I'm going to...

I'm going to flake, and therefore I have to be really, really strong about this. And so that's typically what's happening. The reason that people are usually scared or... freezing okay so i'm gonna put a hoodie on keep going um but whereas people are are but if if you really look at what the fear is underneath it the fear is that i'm gonna lose connection

The reason that I'm not going to draw the boundary is because I think that you won't love me if I hold the boundary. And so that's usually why people are scared of that they don't. are consistent with the boundary the other thing that happens is that the boundary will change over time naturally if you're doing them right because once you realize that you're not oppressed you don't need the same kind of boundaries

So if I think about my father, who was an alcoholic, my first boundary with him was like, I'm not going to be around you if you are drinking. And then it was, I'm not going to be around you if you're drunk.

or hungover and then it was oh i'm not going to be around you if you treat me like this this or this whether you're drunk or hungover or not and i can be around you if you're drunk or hungover but if you treat me like this i'm i'm out oh interesting so the So once you start learning that, oh, I actually am the one, I get to control my own destiny, I get to control whether I'm cared for, I get to control if I'm loving myself, then...

then all of a sudden the boundaries become less necessary or they become softer, more open-hearted. How much of this is a fear of being seen, being sort of truly, this is me? this is what I want, my desires are legitimate. Yeah, yes, yes. I think it's maybe more accurately put as a shame of this is who I am, this is what I want, and this is how I actually want to live my life. I'm not allowed to do that.

It's a weird thing that our mind will do and it'll be like, no, I actually need to bend to get this kind of love. I need to be different. I need to not. want that much attention. I need to not be angry. We have this whole list of things that we have to do. And it's a process of realizing that all of those things that... are actually okay. And we can be loved for them as well. Why are people more comfortable with

silently suffering than being seen sometimes. It's shame. It's shame. It's the general thought process that there's something wrong with you.

That's the thing. And vulnerability is the cure for that. Whether you think about it as like... 12-step programs where the whole thing is i'm going to say all the things that i'm ashamed about and i'm going to be able to be loved in that shame and i'm going to see that other people are going through that and i've done that and i can see that they're good lovely people

who made a mistake. And so I can also be a good, lovely person who made a mistake. That's the antidote for the shame. So the biggest issue is that when people keep all that to themselves, there's no real air. for the shame to decompose. It never becomes the compost for a better life, it just becomes this rancid thing that's buried deep. That's a cool analogy.

Yeah. You've got this line, the strongest smoke signals that you're avoiding in emotion. Number one, looping thoughts, endless overthinking. Number two, binary decisions, feeling stuck between two options. Number three, harsh judgments. of others. Most inner work fails because it's done from the same self-rejection it's trying to heal. I feel like those are linked together.

The fear one's interesting because I said binary thinking there, that you think of things black or white. Buy the car, don't buy the car. Do the podcast, don't do the podcast. Leave the girl, stay with the girl. That's an immediate, that's fear unexpressed. That's what that is. So when we're scared, we go into binary thinking. And it's why fear is really not a great.

ally for good problem solving or getting the most out of a situation because you start limiting your perspective to binary. And so that one's particular binary. particularly fear, the binary thinking one on judgment. There's no time that we're judging somebody when what's actually happening is there's emotion we don't want to feel. Could you give me an example? Yeah, so I am judging somebody for hawking LMNT on the thing. Rightly so.

Not at all. What's actually happening there is if I sit with it... I'm like, oh, if I couldn't feel that judgment, that's the question you ask. If I couldn't feel that judgment, what would I have to feel? And what I might feel is jealousy that you have a great sponsor who's aligned with you. Or I might feel like... I might have this idea that anytime I'm trying to sell myself or make money, I'm bad. And since I don't allow it in myself, I can't allow it in you.

I'm feeling that own, because of course we're all selling ourselves on some level, so of course I feel the shame of selling myself. So maybe it's the shame, but there's always something underneath the judgment that we're not feeling. And if you ask yourself that question, it's like an immediate...

resolve of judgment what's the question again yeah it's uh if i couldn't feel that judgment what would i have to feel so you can literally just go into any judgment that you have and and just find it like

And usually they're best for like moms, dads, or girlfriends, but you can say like a boyfriend. So you can say, oh, I judged my girlfriend for this. And then if I couldn't feel that judgment, what would I have to feel? And it just, you start seeing what the parts of yourself that you're not allowing. What about a practical way to break the loop of rumination, looping thoughts, endless overthinking? Express emotions.

Don't express them at people. Don't go yelling at people or being sad at somebody or being scared at somebody, which is typically what humans do, which is why we think that emotions are so bad. It's like, I'm angry, so I'm going to get angry at you. Or I'm scared, so I'm going to be really scared at you so that you take on my fear. And so nobody wants that. But we've mistaken the emotion for the aggression in the emotion.

which is like you're doing it at somebody instead of just having the emotion. But if you're overthinking, I've seen this, you've seen this, like we do this in that week long that you participated in and we do it in our other courses too. the longer ones, somebody has an emotional expression and immediate clarity on the other side of it. I know what I need to do.

So that rumination is just, I'm trying, and the way to think about it intellectually is this, I am trying to solve a problem. The problem I'm trying to solve is I don't want to feel a certain way. So should I take Element or should I not take Element as a sponsor? So I'm in binary thinking, I'm in fear because of whatever, and I'm looping on it over and over and over again.

I don't want to feel like I'm wrong for having taken it, and I don't want to feel like I don't have enough money or poverty if I don't take it. I have these two feelings that I'm trying to avoid. And so if you are good with any of the feelings... because you feel them you're like oh well i'm gonna feel this i'm gonna feel that i'm gonna feel it all then all of a sudden the decision is really easy to make

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and save a hundred bucks by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom. You have a decisions course? Yeah. I haven't done it. I've already heard you talk about you can't make a decision without emotions. If you are some patient going through some weird quasi-lobotomy thing, it takes you half an hour to choose which crayon to write with or what sandwich you want, etc.

I think people are usually pretty familiar with those sorts of experiments. What is a little deeper about the relationship between making good decisions or making any decision? and your relationship to yourself, voice in the head, your emotions. Yeah. So the emotion side of it is the easiest to think about. We are making decisions to feel a certain way.

How do I feel good? How do I feel like a winner? How do I not feel rejected? This is what makes us make a decision. We want to feel right or not wrong, whatever it is. It's safe. That's what we're making decisions for. And if you think about it in a very minute way, why am I doom scrolling? Why did I decide to doom scroll?

I decided because I don't want to feel whatever angst that I'm having, this is going to help me not feel that. Loneliness, boredom. Whatever it is. So we're making our decisions to feel and to not feel certain ways. If you start to learn to fall in love with all the emotions, which basically means not resist them, which basically means accept all the parts of yourself that weren't accepted as a kid so that you can actually be yourself.

then decisions are just automatic. They're simple because this is my truth. I want to do this. I'm okay if it means that I have to mourn something. It's okay if people get upset at me. It's okay. And this is what... creates like hyper success in people too which is interesting if you look at the if you look at the evidence people who are okay being disagreeable or disagreeable on the ocean scale

meaning that they're not trying to make sure everybody's happy, they're okay if people are upset with them, are far more likely to be successful in a hyper-successful way than people who need everybody around them to be happy.

going to get paid more money there's a whole bunch of like they'll ask for the raise they'll go up to the person at the meeting exactly they'll do all the things because they're okay with somebody And so you can either do that by being like a stone-cold asshole or you can do it by...

And that works, no doubt. Or you can do it by actually falling in love with all of your emotions. And then you're like, oh, cool. Like, this is my truth and I'm okay with whatever emotional consequence there is to it. And you can't do that without an open heart. So you have a closed heart. You have a closed heart, you're trying not to feel. Open heart basically just means I'm feeling everything. That's what it means. Yeah, everybody has recency bias.

I guess it's strange because my recency bias, the order of things that I've learned. on the show is not always the order of the way that they're published. So sometimes I'm like, fucking Christopher Nolan's Tenet, and I'm like, you know, looping back on something. But I keep thinking about this, Charlie.

conversation I had, and he talks about congruence, this beautiful idea about congruence. You look at the person that's the victim, their sort of head, heart, and loins are kind of aligned, even if they're miserable and at the mercy of the world, because they're doing the thing that they feel.

It's rough hewn and uncrafted and unrefined, but it's happening. Then you move into action and you're like, well, head, heart and loins as well. You would look at like a Trump, a Tate around this and you'd think.

say what you want about them they're fully incongruence like there is no doubt i am doing the thing i'm the best the best ever like you know like hardest guy in the part whatever it is like they're incongruence but then when you start to move into the open heart thing the valley of despair

Total white belts, like speaking to the fucking teacher here. But as far as I can see, one of the pains that people feel when making that move into living with an open heart is the incongruence starts to come back in. they are uncertain about the stuff that they used to do. And it's like, I used to get results.

Right. When I just was the asshole, when I was disagreeable without an open heart or as disagreeable, how do you say, like from, from disposition, not from curation or not from awareness perhaps. Yeah. like unconsciously competent as opposed to consciously competent. But to go through that, you go through consciously incompetent first, because you're like,

oh, God, I used to have these patterns and these ways of operating, and now I need to work out how to integrate, transcend, and include all of this stuff to get back to the place that I was. It's like, yeah, but it's not the same as having never left.

Like to go on this big fuck off journey, this is the story of Paulo Coelho's The Alchemist, right? Like the gold's in the backyard, but like you got to go on the fuck off journey to come back around to land at the same place. But that lack of congruence is where people go.

oh well this this is obviously wrong like there's obviously something wrong because previously i was getting results now i'm not even sure if i'm doing the right thing and i've lost the fucking results at least in part in this little valley bit in the middle before you get back to it's

started to slot back together and I've got something appropriate in competence again. Yeah, I think that there's a couple things that are missing from that story. The first thing that I think is missing from the story is... whatever you were getting wasn't good enough beer you wouldn't fucking be on the journey so so yeah you were getting results but the results weren't what you wanted or you wouldn't that there'd be no impetus to to go on the journey there's something missing and so

yeah, maybe you're not getting results like you used to get, but the results you used to get. weren't the results you wanted. So I think that's one part that I think is missing the journey. The other thing that I don't really see it is you become less capable. That's not my experience. It sometimes happens. It sometimes doesn't.

But the way I see it is that you no longer can deal with the lack of congruity that's there. Meaning there's some sort of congruence that happens where the Andrew Tates of the world, they are. they there it's like there's a deep authenticity like there just is a deep authenticity you might not like it you might not want it but there's like this deep authenticity but there's not i wouldn't i wouldn't call it a congruence i wouldn't call it a deep alignment with

Because there's still this big war inside of themselves. You're looking at their war. So to some degree, it's like, yeah, they can get things done in the world. what's the journey is i'm getting something done in the world but i still feel this war inside of myself how do i how do i get things done in the world and not be at war with myself

That's the question. And what happens on that journey is at some point you're so sensitive that you know the war is going on in yourself. Like you've gotten to the point where you're like, I get it. There's something going on that sucks and I don't want it, which is what is the beginning of the journey. So I think the words I would use, but I get Charlie's words and I love Charlie, is that I would call that there's authenticity, but there's not that deep alignment.

There's still a war. They're still in war with themselves. Yeah. They're still trying to prove something. Well, I think they're still trying, like, you're the most powerful man in the world and you still need X, Y, and Z, or you're the media celebrity, but you still need X. There's still something you're trying to prove. And so that's what drops. The thing that it makes me think about is someone, somebody who goes from...

authenticity to true congruence, right? Where the heart actually starts to align with the actions and sort of the desires. Being exposed to somebody or being seen by somebody.

who doesn't have that level of awareness. I mean, like... having to dance around the words a little bit because i don't want it to sound like a value judgment for people who like don't feel things so very deeply right as if there's some sort of amount of worth that comes along with that but there just are there's certain people who are going to question things more feel things more

be more self-aware, self-reflective, ruminative, do the hypervigilance obsessive thing, and just pay attention to what's going on internally and externally a little bit more. And I think one of the challenges as a avatar for that type of person is you are seen by people.

for whom that is not going to be their future that is not going to be their path and they're just locked in in authenticity at action action and results and like the emotions piece is not going to play a huge role or as huge of a role perhaps in their future um It's playing a huge role. It's just they're not going to be aware. That might be a better way to put it. And you trying to have that conversation as somebody who's trying to take that step.

with somebody who isn't now or maybe ever, results in you looking kind of silly in some ways. It takes a kind of bravery, I think, to avoid the social judgment of somebody who sees you as not evolving into your emotions, but devolving back. out of them into like, oh my God, you're just being driven around by your emotions. Like how irrational, as opposed to, oh, how beautiful you're diving into them. And that there's already enough self-doubt.

and uncertainty and fear and shame around you know like i'm starting to feel like i just teared up on these playing the song like how silly um the I'm interested of how people navigate. And I think this is what I said about living in the world with an open heart. Yeah. Is some of this different... level communication thing and you're speaking in not only different dialects but totally different languages with people yeah uh and that can it can be easy to be mocked to feel silly how do you

How do you think about navigating that? Because it would be lovely to just have a perfect, beautiful, supportive container or your own amount of self-belief so much that the container no longer matters. But you're going to interact with that. you know, alpha Chad or alpha boss bitch lady or guy at work around the water cooler who's like fucking gay that dude, like whatever. Yeah.

How do you think about navigating that spikiness of the world with the sensitivity, open heart, truth, boundary, like all of that stuff? Yeah. So there's a couple of ways I think about it. The first way I think about it is... Imagine you are, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but you're an ISIS terrorist and you have a whole bunch of ISIS terrorist friends. They're gone. It's fucking Hezbollah now, right? Hezbollah. Yeah.

uh hezbollah terrace or whatever you're with a whole bunch of terrorist friends and one day you're like oh i realized i probably shouldn't be blowing up innocent people well as it turns out And then you're asking me, what do I do? And all my friends are like, no, you should blow up people, innocent people. It's like, yeah.

To some degree, what it is is that there's some people who judge you and who think you're dumb for working out. There's some people who judge you and think you're dumb for needing as much of attention on a podcast. Some people think you're dumb for... being on a reality television show. Some people think you're dumb for being a guru. Point taken. It's the problem with actually bringing someone on who really knows you. Yeah, fine, fine, fine.

Or think you're dumb for teaching emotional stuff. Prostatizing about blah, blah. Exactly. So there's always going to be some people who do that. And so the question is, how do you handle that? in all the places that it's already happening and what makes this particular place being emotional the sensitive place because i see you do it and everybody do it on 20 other things but

But then there's this one thing that it's like hard to do it on. And it's usually an indication that that's where you're judging yourself. If you're not judging yourself, then they say, that's like emotional, blah, blah, like you're just a pansy. And the response is, yeah. Yeah, I'm emotional. And I love myself. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, there's this great... term i heard recently called vagal authority are you familiar with this term vagal authority authority so oh that's sick i like it already yeah so it's uh it's basically i my nervous system the calmness of my nervous system is going to have authority in the room so

In Japan, the police are taught this, and they're taught never to raise their voice. A way that we learn it in the States is paramedics never run to the body. They always walk to the body. No way. Because they don't want the other person to feel like... scared and then it amps their adrenal system so it's like this vagal authority when somebody says that to you and you maintain vagal authority it's over and you see this with like little kids bullying each other there's this great

youtube video and hopefully we can i can send you the link about how to stop like if you're being bullied as a kid how to stop it and the whole thing is just maintaining bagel authority it's basically not reacting to the bullying if the bully bullies you and you don't react to it they stop it's just done and it's and you can watch it like over and over and over again it's just like you're an asshole yeah i'm an asshole

What are you going to do? You're a pansy. Yeah, yeah, I'm a pansy. It's like the Taoists have this great saying about it. In a fight between a sword and the ocean, the ocean always wins. What's that mean to you? You have to have something to hit. Oh, yeah. If you... If you attack me and you hit me, I get really excited because it means there's some part of myself I'm still judging. There's some part of myself I'm not allowing. That means that there's more freedom that I get to go and have.

Right? So if I get triggered, I'm excited because I'm like, there's something in me that is still tight and solid and that is not true. That's not the ocean. It's not the ocean. And so for me, what I would say to somebody who is like, yeah, what do I do with the hard person who's like making fun of me for crying? I'd say, great. What's the part of you that's still having a problem with you crying? Because that's where your freedom is. Every judgment, every...

time we're triggered, every time we get defensive, it is a direct pointer for where we can get more freedom in our life. Which is why kids are so awesome to go back to it, because kids will trigger the shit out of you. That's another area. That's another area. Hey dad, I don't care about all of your music. I don't care about all those fans. I don't care about all those things that you think make you a good person.

I've got a new Power Ranger, and you didn't get to play with me. Yeah, exactly. Like, boom. Your identity just... And then you get to find out what you really are. Because you and I are both at a place where we're special in society somehow. famous for this or that, or we have this perch. But you and I know we've interacted with all those people. It's not who any of us are. Nobody's special.

Everybody, they say, puts pants one leg on at a time. But everybody feels angry and sad, and everybody feels angst, and it's happening to all of us. I can't remember who it is, some medieval philosopher that talks about from the king in his castle to the peasant in the street, everybody shits. Everybody shits. Everybody shits. In other news, I've been drinking AG1 every morning. For years or two, do you...

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Okay, okay. Anyway, if you too want something to throw at your friends or a tasty blend of 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food sourced ingredients designed... to drink first thing in the morning in one scoop. It's here. Go to drinkag1.com slash modern wisdom for stuff. Thank you. I'm interested in... the listening to yourself portion of this to just harp a little bit more on the difference between irrational instinct being at the mercy of.

and cultivated intuition, listening to the fleeting thought, the quiet voice of. because those two things can't be the same. The person who is swept away by their anger and blows up and does all of this stuff. Do you get the tension that I'm talking about? And again, what I'm really trying to drill into, again, my recency bias with Charlie is the fear. This is my journey. This is my journey right now. My journey right now is I've spent a long time in action. I felt helpless for a lot of my life.

I then decided to step into no longer feeling helpless. I'm now going from that to, okay, unteachable lessons, you've buttfucked me enough. Like, I get it, I get it, I get it. Like there is more, there is deeper to go. what's the next journey? The next journey is to go into feeling everything as opposed to just acting everything. Okay. There was a part of being swept away by emotion previously.

A lot of it was suppression for me, but for other people, there may be tons and tons and tons of emotion. So irrational instinct to sort of cultivated intuition. Talk to me about that. So it doesn't really matter in the long run. So long run, if you're aware and you're bringing awareness to your actions.

you're going to very, very, very quickly realize that when you are swept away by emotions and you're in your pattern, it's going to be painful. And in the long run, when you listen to that intuition, It's going to feel right. It's going to be more right. It's not going to bring all the drama. So on some level, you can listen to either one of them and do it because you immediately will realize or within a week or two realize.

That wasn't that. There's a big distinction that being swept away by the emotion didn't actually serve me. And listening to that intuition, deep intuition did. And you'll start to make a distinction in your body. So in the long run...

it's like the way i would say it it's like if you're working out wrong if you're working out in a way that hurts your body your body's going to get hurt and you're going to realize that and you're going to then change the way that you work out as an example right um but That's not like the most efficient. The most efficient thing is to have someone tell you, okay, here's how you work that thing out so that you don't hurt yourself, right? And so what I would say is that...

If you are triggered or in judgment, then it's not the intuition. If it's like a little bit scary, then it's far more likely to be the intuition. Because if it's a little scary, it's out of your pattern. Oh, that's cool. That's cool. Because the path of least resistance is likely to be more reactive. old pattern exactly the one where you go yeah oh am i gonna do that yeah and then you want to accelerate the curve you just go do that like immediately so a lot of times people will say to me

I don't understand how you just have a realization that immediately it's in your life. Act on it. Immediately act on it. And the answer is probably unrewarding, but it's exactly that as I act on it. So recently in business, we were... I had this recognition that I was not asking for what I wanted in a way that was clear. And so I just announced to the whole business, hey, here's this way in which I'm not clear in what I'm at for the way that I'm asking for what I want.

I apologize. I'm sorry that I did that. That's not fair to any of you. I take full ownership of it. And I am going to start doing it more directly. If I mess up, please let me know. Just directly. come to me and say, this isn't working and I will start making adjustments. And then I found six different ways to ask for directly what I wanted, how I wanted it, and I did it.

And was it scary? Yeah, of course it was scary. But it's like immediately doing the thing as many reps as I can possibly do it. That's how you change it. Alex Holmes, he's got this idea, which I think is... On the outside, he might not seem like a compatriot of your world, but he very much is in his own flavor. And he has this idea where...

the life that you want is on the other side of a few hard decisions. And the reason that you're not living them is because you're too afraid to have them. And when you have the first one, what he's noticed is you got to fire someone. You got to get rid of somebody and he thought about it. And oh my God, I can't do it.

six months longer than they should have done two years longer five years longer than they should have done and then finally you do it and you realize oh that was okay and then the next thing you do is like Oh, what other conversations can I have that are like that? And you've got this sniper rifle out and you turn from like being a hitman into a mass shooter and you're like, okay, I'm going to like, holy shit, it's a machine gun. So it's kind of interesting that.

when the volume of the lesson gets so loud that you can't ignore it, you finally do it, but then you kind of go on this run. Right. Like Shohei Otani, you just have this absolute streak. Right. And that gap that you were saying between what I would call authenticity and that deeper alignment, attunement is Charlie's word for it, I believe, is the action.

It's like, oh, what are those scary actions that I'm not taking? I'm going to go take them. And if I just line those up and do those reps, that transition is much shorter. And you might get rid of a lot of people. Why? So let's say one of the pieces of when you get into the attunement is like, oh, I've been caretaking a lot of people. Then a whole bunch of people that you stop caretaking might not want to be in the relationship anymore.

the ones who stay are going to be great is that or if i'm a terrorist and i want to stop blowing people up i'm probably going to have to change from groups have i told you about my lonely chapter idea thing basically When you go from a place that you are to a place that you are that you don't want to be to a place that you do want to be,

You become so developed you can't resonate with your old set of friends, but not yet sufficiently developed that you've built your new set of friends. And you're sort of stuck in this zone of uncertainty. It tarnishes the process. You're permanently in self-doubt. You don't know where you're going to go. I was thinking about this.

I think this was maybe a couple of weeks after we were together. Or maybe it was a couple of weeks before, I can't remember. Anyway, this is the other side of the lonely chapter. So I've been talking about this for like three years. I'll read you a little. essay. You're a different character in the mind of each person who knows you because their impression of you is made of the bare bones of what they've seen fleshed out by their knowledge of themselves.

so my friend Gwynda Bogle. The Lonely Chapter has another perspective to it. As you grow, you don't fit in with your friends, but this means that they don't fit in with you either. And this causes a reaction from their side too. The hardest part of changing yourself isn't just improving your habits. It's escaping people who keep handing you your old costume. Others don't remember who you were. They enforce it.

which is why reinvention often feels so much like trying to break out of a prison that you can't see. Psychologists call this dynamic an object relation. When people interact with you, they're not engaging with you in your full living complexity. They're dealing with the version of you that exists in their head.

a simplified character built from fragments of memory and colored by their own projections. In object relations theory, an object isn't a thing, it's the internalized image of another person. We don't just carry people as they are, we carry a mental sketch, which is why if you make a radical change, you'll usually... meet resistance. Your transformation destabilizes the representation that the people around you are attached to, so they try to nudge you back into the familiar role that you know.

Charles Horton Cooley called this the looking-glass self. We come to know ourselves by seeing our own reflection in other people's eyes. If these mirrors keep reflecting the old you, it's hard to step into the new one. In social psychology, self-verification theory shows that people prefer interactions that confirm what they already believe about themselves and about you. And if you disrupt this script, you introduce friction. Yeah.

All true. And exactly why, especially the places we judge ourselves is where we feel that pressure from the society. However, it really changes if you're just conscious about it. Meaning. We all want to evolve. There's like a migrational path that we all have. We all have this, and there's a lot of human development studies that show that there is a...

path of development that we want to go down. Maybe it gets stopped because of trauma or life events, but we all want to do it. So if you sit down with your group of friends and you say, hey, this is who I was. and this is who and this is a transition and i would love your support in it and this is where you can see things that are different which is what i did with the company like here's my here's what it's what's going on what i notice is at least 80 of the people want to support you in that

process if it's conscious if you just go and do it it's different so that's why i had a question i tried to interrupt you with which was how important is setting the scene how important is saying this is a thing that i've noticed and blah blah blah because

you know, the ruthless CEO archetype might just be, I'll just go and do the thing. I'll just say the way it's going to be. You went through this unnecessarily superfluous fucking storytelling thing. You know, sit everybody down here, come lie in my armpit. Like, let me give you the, you know.

yeah how important is the scene setting of this is me i have realized this thing yeah so let me let me answer that as if you were that ceo who just said that to me i'd be like yeah that's exactly how you should handle um explaining the context of your company to your customer. I'm not going to handhold you. I'm not going to put you in my arm and elbow you and rub you and nuzzle you and say, yeah, my company sells really great products. Of course you are. You're going to set context everywhere.

How do I get somebody on my page to let them understand how I'm making the decision? As a matter of fact, one of the things I see inside of companies... One of the biggest inefficiencies is that nobody has a shared context. Nobody actually understands all the things that the CEO understands and therefore the CEO feels like they're all alone.

because they don't actually have the context. Well, from a decision-making perspective, they are. A CEO is a complex decision-making machine who has a degree of perspective and context that is unreplicable, very difficult to have anywhere else, which is why this amount of perspective and context gives you the ability to aggregate.

all of this stuff. And it sounds to me like you're saying the job of the CEO is to try and make that perspective as widely known as possible. Especially within his top six, seven people. Absolutely. I would say that's a bad CEO. A good CEO is somebody who's sharing his problems with a group of smart people and making a decision with them. And I assume the same is true in a relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. So most relationship.

death comes from not sharing context. So the first thing I would say is it's very efficient to share the context. You don't have to do it. It's just super efficient. A lot less turmoil, a lot less... I see where they're coming from. Say again? I understand their motivation. Yeah, they're my friend. I want to support them in their journey. Yeah, and I also feel that same call in me somewhere. Somewhere, I feel that same call in me.

Like, even if I'm making fun of you for having the emotion, even that reaction tells you that there's something... It's the judging again. Yeah, exactly. They're judging themselves. And so you know that it's in there in them. So give them the opportunity, open up the door for them as well by sharing your own vulnerability. And again, can't do that without an open heart.

close your heart down and you're not going to share the context close your heart down you're not going to bring your friends along for the ride let me give you an example i already told charlie this story um we filmed this vlog tracking the new york and toronto shows that we did a couple of weeks ago, and it was beautiful. I hear they're going really well, man.

Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, you've selfishly decided to put a retreat on so you can't hang out with me this Saturday, but it's fine. We can do it again sometime. Anyway, Max, who you met, videographer, turned this edit around in... It was a week of footage turned into an hour of life and it's beautiful. I fucking loved it. And I was like, I'm so proud. And it's real, it's a real different.

angle on the way that everything looks. Anyway, I got all excited about it. There was an error on the upload. It was up for 10 minutes, came back down. That's like cancerous to reach because all the notifications have got triggered. And then this thing happens and it pulls back down and people that were watching it can't watch it. And then they're not going to watch it again.

And in between one of the episodes earlier this week, I come out and I'm like, oh, has everything gone up okay on the things? I'm going to the bathroom. And they were like, oh yeah, there was a little bit of an error. And immediately my response was. Well, what happened? Here's the process. We need to make sure that the thing, I'm so frustrated. And I realized a little bit later when I was talking to Charlie that what I should have done is gone. Ow.

I really loved that thing. And I really wanted other people to love it too. And I thought it was really special. And maybe they're not going to get to see it in the same way. Ow. Like I got my hopes up. I should have said that. I didn't. We must make sure where the process, we got to get the thumbnail with the title. So that was very much you ventriloquizing me from wherever the fuck you were. I would say both are really important.

ow that sucks so people can see you so like so so so that the team can be like oh he's human and i empathize and yeah it sucks for me too and we can be human in this together and How the fuck do we make sure this doesn't happen again? Because that anger that you feel is a boundary. There's a boundary there of like, oh, if we're going to do this, how do we make sure we're doing it right?

But I think both are really critical. And I think that is the integration that you're talking about from getting from one place to the other. It's like there's a because there's some fear in the system. then it's like, I either should be open-hearted or I should be get shit done and ruthless. And it's like, they're not mutually exclusive. I can be open-hearted and be...

very clear about my vision and what I want to do and how I want to be and the reach that I want to have, of course. How could I not? Think about it like a mom. A mom open-hearted, or a dad in this case, open-hearted to their son. Open-hearted. Ruthless. He was ruthless. I am going to do this 15 minutes from my house. I'm going to do, I'm not going to tour. It was all ruthless and deeply open-hearted for his son.

And it's both. And the models that we're looking for are the people who do both. And we just for a while in the journey get confused that it's one or the other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You've mentioned your business too many times for me to not do this. I'm going to have an intervention with you. You've done enough to me, so I'm going to put the shoe on the other fucking foot for a second. Okay. Have you spoken to your team after the call that me and my YouTube guy had? Yeah, man, we are so grateful.

Did you listen to a recording or did they give you a full breakdown? Did they talk to you about what I want as your new vertical for content? We've already recorded two. How did they go? We recorded three. That tells you how it went. Two of them are good. Two of them, I think, are great. One of them was the golf one that I think you recommended. Yeah, that was actually really cool. And then there was one.

Context for everybody listening. You wanted me to do reaction videos too. I'll give context to your context. Okay, great. I had a conversation with Mike Isretel about three or four years ago. Who was on that call? Was it Dean? Maybe it was just me. Anyway, Mike is probably the fastest growing channel in all of health and fitness, has been for the last three or four years. I mentioned it on the call with your guys. He's like the big guy bald. Yep.

And you did like a workout thing with him. I've done a number of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're friends. He's been on the show a bunch. The first time he came on, he was like, the YouTube channel is kind of floundering a bit. There were maybe a million subs, a little bit less. What do you think that we should do?

I'm by no means like some fucking supermaster at YouTube, but especially if someone's super talented and they're just missing the unlock. Yeah. I was like, okay, here's a bunch of things. From then until now, they've gained 3 million subs in like three years. So like real vertical growth. And the guy's the same guy. He's been in the fitness industry for forever. I was like, huh, that was cool. Like there was something there. And we became really good friends. And he very flatteringly attributes.

at least some of the growth to some of the shit that we got them. Although it's all his talent, it's largely that. It's just the same format for you. I'm sorry. It's the same format. And the reason I'm sorry is that one of your fundamental fears is like an increase in exposure for you, not for the mission. But I know for a fact that if you start to do master coach critiques or master coach assesses or master coach whatevers, it will...

do to YouTube something that we haven't seen for quite a while. Like, I'm confident that that's going to happen. You've got the team, you've got the way that it's filmed, you've got the edit style, you've got as well that Mike didn't at the time, the... roadmap because you can just go, I'm just going to do the emotion equivalent of what he did for exercise science. And it is, I'm, I'm usually not wrong.

So I was very resistant. I was like... I knew you were. I said, I was like, he's going to fucking hate it and I can't wait for him to hate it. It's so good because I get to turn it around after he's bitched me for an entire week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck you, Joe Hudson. Yeah, so we have a principal in our company that's everything's in iteration. So I was sitting there going, this is, oh, I don't want to do this. And my team was like, everything's in iteration.

sit your butt down because for us like our principles are more important than any one person's decision like this is this is how we operate including mine yeah exactly and so they just put stuff in front of me and and looked at looked at first of all we all decided tara would be far better at reaction videos because she's so much more expressive than i am but there was one that was like a reality television show and my reaction was

oh God, why does anybody watch this? That's punking the game. That one didn't work. That one didn't work. But there was, there's a couple that I thought were just like amazing to do. Actually, I, I, again was, I was like, well. I was wrong. That was amazing. You had fun. I had fun. I enjoyed it. Unreal. Yeah. So I think it's really critical that we get.

you know, a list of things that I can do that would, that's, that are going to feel good, but there's some that are just, I'm not going to, I can't do like pop culture commentary. Well, you're going to learn.

you know, the bucket of what is and isn't appropriate. And I'm sure that Mike has been, Scott, the video guy, his guy, RP, will have put videos in front of him and he's like, ah no and they probably never made the channel right or they did and they didn't perform or whatever yeah um and over time the curation in the same way for that

vertical of content the same way as my guest selection is paramount it's the most important thing the most important thing for you guys is what's the video like what is it or the the incident or whatever that i'm responding to What is that? Because that's the well from which you're drawing all of this stuff out.

say in the UK, you can't polish a turd. Some of them may not be turds, but you're just an incompatible turd with that turd. The one that I had the most fun with was a fight scene of comedy from, I think it was like the early aughts. called uh called uh this is 40 and i had the you know judd apatow who was the guy that made it he was sat in that seat yesterday oh wow yep yeah yep yep so so yeah so i break down that fight scene and i'm like

And it was so fun. I'm so fired up for you to do this. Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah. No, no, no. I think title and thumb, keep it. Master coach something. Master coach critiques. Master coach assesses. Master coach reacts. Whatever it is. Yeah. Super simple.

this is 40 fight scene, like Scott Schifler's golf speech, like whatever it might be, like you have an infinite amount of growth, like literally a vertical amount of growth to do from that. That speech is... phenomenal do you want to give a little like summary for the yeah i don't know what we're talking yeah so it's this i i'm not a golf follower but this is the the preeminent golf guy now like just amazing apparently and

He basically talks about winning and how the feeling of winning lasts about two minutes. And then he literally goes, and then you guys are just asking me. He's talking to a bunch of reporters. you all are just asking me, like, how am I going to do on the next one? So like, it's gone. Like all this winning doesn't mean anything, but what he says, which is the secret of it all.

And he says it three or four times. He just keeps on saying, I'm just the guy who loves to practice. I'm just the guy who loves to practice. And that is what makes him so successful, is that he loves the doing of it, not the... not the reward of it. And so many people are sitting in their rooms right now, listening to this or doing something and going, I want the reward of fame. I want the reward of money. I want the reward of a great girlfriend. I want the reward of...

And it will last two minutes. You got to love the thing that you're doing if you're going to actually have the success and maintain it. Right? You love having conversations with people. And actually, when I leave here, I'm going to talk to a woman at UTA who runs the literary department there. And we're talking about a book.

And she asked me, she's like, well, what do you want from the book? And I said, I won't do anything for money that I wouldn't do for free. The best story I've learned from you around that. I mean, this meme needs to go so much. wider than it has with you just like flicking it onto the floor like you're tossing like a bit of offal into the bin or something uh your daughter came to you and said

I've got my first billion dollar idea. And he said, oh, wow, it's an idea that you can sell for a billion dollars. He says, no, no, no, it's an idea that I wouldn't give away if someone offered me a billion dollars. fucking yes money yeah such money and that's what you're talking about that's what i'm talking about we're going to talk about the book before you leave as well don't worry okay i've got

things that I need to say. James Clear, it doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it. If you want to live the lifestyle, then release yourself from the desire to crave the result, but not the process.

is to guarantee disappointment. To crave the result but not the process is to guarantee disappointment. It doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it. I want fame. Fame sounds great. I want to be a world.

world touring musician okay do you want to spend 10 years in your bedroom playing guitar because like that that is the lifestyle right that you need in order to be able to get the life yeah the the only thing i would add is there is there is a there is a great benefit to just being in the want. But not the want. So let's say I want to be famous, right?

If I just feel the feeling of wanting, even I take the fame out of it, but I just feel that feeling of wanting, there's great benefit to that. Often what's happening is that we feel the want and then we... immediately stop that feeling of wanting and go into i should do this i should do this i should do this i should do this i should do this we're not actually spending time in that feeling of wanting and if you spend time in the feeling of wanting there is an often

a massive unlock that occurs. So you want a whole bunch of attention. You want to be liked by people. But what happens is you go, I want to be liked by somebody. You have the thought. Maybe you don't even fully admit that you've had the thought to yourself. And then you go, I need to do this. I need to do this. I need to, I should have done this. I should have done this. I shouldn't have done this, which is basically avoiding the feeling of wanting.

But if you actually go, oh, I want that and I'm going to stop everything and fully feel what it is to really want somebody's attention, there is a massive freedom that can be found in that. Because what you find is that want... when it's unresisted, is a lot like love. It's a lot like love. Why? Or how? Instead of that, just see what it's like. Think of something that you want.

want your girlfriend to blah blah blah or your mom or blah blah blah and then just feel the wanting without needing anything to be different and like look your system relaxes and opens and You mentioned the similarity between telling company the motivation and the context for why something is about to happen and the importance in relationship.

This is from you. Every relationship fight boils down to three things. Number one, I don't feel seen. Number two, I'm trying to change you. Number three, I need to defend myself. Shift any one of those and the fight will shift too. Yeah. Yeah, so the way I see most fights is I have a theory called the shame hot potato, which is basically I don't feel good about myself, so I'm going to throw shame at you.

And now I don't feel good about myself, so I'm going to throw shame at you. And then we're just like passing the shame back and forth. This person feels like they're always defending themselves. This person feels like they're always defending themselves. This defense feels like an attack to this person, and this defense feels like an attack to this person. So it's like, you never do the dishes. I am ashamed that I can't keep up with the housework.

And then I'm keeping score. You don't do the dishes. I feel like I'm defending myself. Look at all the things that I've done. Why aren't you? I feel like you attacked me for not doing the dishes. And back and forth, it just goes like that. And so this person's response is, well, I work all day and you only work 35 hours a week.

oh, I don't work enough, I've been attacked, I'm ashamed, and off it goes. And so every single one of those things that you read there are an expression of that cycle that's going on. I really see that you need more help in the house and you feel overwhelmed. And I don't want you to feel overwhelmed. Fight's gone. That's the being seen part. Oh, you're right. I don't do the dishes. Fight's gone.

I don't need to defend myself. So every single thing is just basically unlocking that shame hot potato that's going, which is basically people feeling unloved for who they are and not being able to love themselves for who they are.

I just love the phrase that it's like, if you're trying to change somebody, you're not loving them. You're basically saying you need to be different to get my love. And that usually... typically means for the for yourself if you're trying to change somebody is that you're trying to also there's also some part of yourself that you're not loving why

Let's say early in the relationship, Tara was very big and I would get embarrassed. And it was not about Tara being big. It was about me trying to be seen as. normal being fit in everywhere not stand out it has nothing to do with her so that part of her that i'm changing is like the part of me wanting attention that i wasn't allowing myself to feel or have

So typically that's the thing. And it's also just like that old phrase. My mom actually had this on needlepoint in the wall. I don't know. She needlepointed this phrase. It's just something that happened with American moms in the 70s apparently. It said, trying to move a mountain or change a man, I'll move a mountain, it's easier. So it's also just, it just hurts a relationship because the person will resist.

Yeah. People don't respond well to being told you need to change. Exactly. Including ourselves. And yet we do it to ourselves all the time. Talk to me about that. I should work out more. I should stop smoking. I should. Be more truthful. I should run a bigger business. I should be famous. All those things are the things that you can look back on a decade and haven't changed. The more we're forcing ourselves to change, the less that change happens.

Where does change come from if not from motivating ourselves? The same place it comes from when a little kid goes from crawling to walking. It's our wants. It's like being able to listen to and fully feel the want. that is in our world. Wants are far more efficient fuel than shoulds. Shoulds is a very dirty fuel. It doesn't work very well. It's meant to kind of stop things.

you know shame and shoulds are like they're meant to stop behaviors and we use them to motivate ourselves but they don't work very well whereas wants and desire and natural motivation that just Burns. It's that golf guy I love to practice. He has a want to practice. He wants to play golf. That's the thing. He kept his love for playing golf. That's a more efficient fuel than

I should play golf every day. If you want to screw up, how many artists do you know who have done this? They're loving their art, they're doing great, they get a job. They start having to do their art, and they're like, I should do my art, and then their love for their art goes away. Anything that you tell yourself you should do, the love of it just starts.

going away how do you protect yourself because there are things that um the difference between knowing this is the next area for growth and progress that i could put myself into yeah uh that is a zone of proximal development it's not what i'm doing right now i don't even know if i want to do this thing because it's kind of new it's on the you know outside of the orbit of what i've done yeah

How do you know the difference between that and this tyrannical should? You know, this is like part of the journey. It's a good part of progress. It can be the journey to the next want. Yeah, the crazy thing is that oftentimes even inside of a should, you can look and find the want in it.

So I should go to the gym. Well, what's the want? Well, the want is to feel healthy. The want is to be skinny. There's some want behind it. You can even take that to the next level. What makes you want to be skinny is, oh, I want... to be attractive. I want to be loved. Okay, cool. There's actually a real want there. You can find the want that's beneath that should. And then you have a lot more options. Okay, so let's just say it's I want to feel good.

Going to the gym is one way to feel good. Playing pickleball is another way to feel good. Hiking a mountain, being in nature is another way to feel good. Being with friends is another way to feel good. So all of a sudden I have these options that open up. And typically when we're in a should, it's a very narrow.

doorway so for instance when i was trying to go from not working out to working out instead of saying i should go to the gym i said what are 20 things that i really want to experiment with as far as working out goes and i want i want to see what pickleball is like i want to see what salsa dancing is like and i just and then i did all those 20 things in like side of a month and then i found out wow i really like pickleball

I don't need to be motivated. I'm calling people, hey, you want to play pickleball? Oh, cool. Now I'm working out and I'm doing something I want to do. So it's just finding the want that's in there and then following it rather than listening to the voice in the head say should and then agreeing with it. Because then you're forcing yourself and we don't respond well when people are trying to change us, including us.

So much of today's world is focused on efficiency and optimization, but efficiency without awareness is just a faster way to burn out. Yeah, that's coming from Silicon Valley. So what I notice is that... people are interested in getting first of all efficiency typically in our society and work means faster it doesn't mean efficient so typically like if i have a car there's a car behind us

the Ferrari, that's not an efficient car. Nobody would call that an efficient car, but it's a very fast car. So efficiency, I think, is better, is more about how much energy you're putting into it. to get it done than it is about how quickly you're getting it done but we really think about it as far as speed goes and so if we are trying to become quite quicker at everything right that that idea of efficiency

without knowing why that's the case, then you're just going to burn out. So I'm talking to a CEO yesterday who's interested in having me coach him. And we were having the discussion about... how it's one fire to the next fire to the next fire to the next fire and how all this has to get done really quickly. And so we spent some time to talk about hiring people and how if he hired four great people, how many fires would be left.

Well, what makes you not do it? Well, because I have to get this stuff done quickly. I have to be efficient about making sure that we land this contract, we do this thing. I'm like, so you're ignoring the thing that makes you more efficient for the immediate efficiency. And that's what I mean. And he's going to burn out that way. Whereas if he looks at the bigger efficiency of hiring those people. And so we're just sitting there.

Basically just getting dopamine fixes. Sent the email, sent the email, sent the email, sent the email. We're not thinking about, can I send that email so I never have to send another email on that topic again? Can I do this task in such a way that I don't have to do 10 more steps, I only have to do five? And I think that's the difference between mastery and...

And like competence and mastery, competence is I can get it done effectively, mastery is I can get it done with very little effort effectively. What are the misconceptions people have about overwhelm? Pretty endemic sensation. Yeah. A lot of people. Typically, it just means emotions haven't moved. Oftentimes. It also means that there's something that you know needs to be done that you're not doing. And those are typically the two things that create that level of overwhelm.

And we think it's because there's so much going on. Oh my gosh, I got this going on and this going on and this going on. But what's typically happening is I'm really excited and I'm not allowing myself to feel it. I'm really scared. I'm not allowing myself to feel it. I'm really angry. I'm not allowing myself to feel it.

And so that, so we're cycling quick. Our minds are cycling quicker and quicker and quicker as we discussed before. And then on top of that, there's things that I know I should be doing that I'm not doing. And that doesn't mean that could be, I know I should be resting.

I know I should be having that hard conversation. I know I should be firing that person. It doesn't mean always, I know I should be doing the thing that my voice in my head is saying, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this. Is that why people- always feel like they never have enough time. Overwhelm seems to create that as a symptom of lack of time.

which is kind of the weirdest thing in the world because we always have the exact amount of time. I was having this realization yesterday and it kind of flipped me out. My life has gotten really busy recently. And then there was a moment where I had like three days where something canceled. And so I had free time and I found myself doing stuff that I haven't done in months because I, and I was like,

why am I doing this? I got so busy that there were things that I wasn't doing and now I'm realizing I'm doing them but they're not necessary because for the last three months I didn't do them and everything worked out just fine.

And so there's this weird phenomenon that happens, which is when we have what we think is a compression of time, it just requires you to do the most important things if you're going to be effective. And so the other way to look at the world is to say, I'm just going to do the most important things all the time. I'm not going to do the...

the little stuff so typically what we're doing is we're saying i don't want chaos to reign in my life so i'm going to do a whole bunch of things get a lot of dopamine hits of doing those little things so that i don't have to feel that chaos But if you're okay feeling the chaos, then you can constantly just focus on doing the most important thing. And one of the things that I've noticed of super hyper successful CEOs.

is that they are really good at focusing on the two or three most important things and letting chaos reign everywhere else if necessary. They know that's the thing, that if that domino falls, everything else is taken care of. I'm going to spend... almost all my time pushing on that domino i suppose that's a skill to be able to discern it's a skill to discern it it's a skill to be able to be okay with the chaos

There's a book called The One Thing, and he talks about this pretty well. He talks about if you're going to focus on the one thing, then you have to be okay because some part of your world's going to go into chaos. And what I notice is when people can't handle the chaos. They can't focus on the one thing. Joe Hudson, ladies and gentlemen. Joe, you're great. You're so fantastic. I'm insane.

Intrepidation for what the next few years is going to look like for you. From book to YouTube to the courses to everything else. I'd strap in if I was you. I think you scared me the other day on that one. You got me really good was you were talking about what it's like for you as fame has increased and how the Amazon truck guy will come out and be like. Great podcast. He's like, but you said to me, in your world, though, the Amazon truck guy is going to jump out and say, hey.

Can you coach me real quick? Yeah. No one comes up to me expecting anything other than just like, dude, love that episode with Charlie recently. Oh, it's so good to see you talking to Huberman again or whatever. Whereas with you, it's going to be like, I have this probably me and my girlfriend. I got this day, that ancestral trauma. Oh my God, Charlie, please go ahead and start praying in front of you. Well, look, you know, I couldn't, one of the very good counter signals that you...

put out as a part of the time that I've worked with you and everything else is like a, I am not your guru type sort of energy. And I think that's very important because there are a number of people who are, uh,

without the legitimacy of you claiming to have it. So to have the legitimacy of you claiming not to have it, I think is good when it comes to the bullseye of... focused on the mission not on the person also super it just doesn't work the other way meaning like if the person isn't their own authority it doesn't work like you can't you you we can't we can for a little while but

it doesn't sustain to like give your authority to somebody else. And so if someone's trying to take your, trying to be your authority, it's a really, really, really good sign not to trust them. Art of accomplishment, YouTube podcast. tosses, everything else. Thank you. Fuck you, Joe Hudson on Twitter. I appreciate you, man. Until next time. Pleasure. Pleasure.

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