#502 - Jocko Willink - Creating An Unbreakable Mindset

Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Jocko Willink, he's a retired United States Navy officer in SEAL team 3, an author and a podcaster. Finding discipline in the modern world is hard, a hyper-convenient existence rarely encourages radical responsibility or extreme ownership. Thankfully, Jocko has spent an entire life learning how to love discomfort and also teaching others how to love it too. If discipline equals freedom, then Jocko must

be one of the freest men on the planet. Expect to learn what Jocko thinks about the Detroit self-defense guy, why discipline always beats motivation, the similarities between elite special forces and elite Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu athletes. Jocko's opinion on Jordan Peterson, how to get over an X, whether he regrets being famous after working in the shadows for so long, how he used a gym carry impression to chat up his wife, whether he wants to try psychedelics, and much more.

This was a lot of fun to record. I flew out to San Diego with the entire production team, and it's just so special doing these big episodes with people like Jocko or Heuberman or Jordan Peterson or whatever, it's such a dream to be able to travel around and create something that I genuinely think is special. So I really, really hope that you enjoy this episode. It took a lot of effort, a lot of planning and a lot of investment as well to get it to look and sound the

way that I wanted it to, and the guys just nailed it. So sit back and enjoy this one, and if you're new here, hit the subscribe button. There are some even bigger guests coming later this year, and you're not going to want to miss them. Sleep isn't just about how long you rest, but how well your body stays in its optimal temperature range throughout the night, which is where eight

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It is 100 books that you should read before you die the most interesting life changing and impactful books I've ever read with descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And you can get it right now for free by going to chriswillx.com slash books that's chriswillx.com slash books. But now ladies and gentlemen, please welcome jockerwillink. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. You flew to watch the UFC with camhains and chris pratt.

I want to know what a night out with jockerwillink looks like. Well, actually I didn't fly up there with cam cam was already up there. I think he flew in from Oregon where he is where he lives. But we did we did meet up there. But I did fly up there with chris pratt and jack car and some of the other folks from the terminal list, which is a tv show that chris pratt is in that jack car wrote the book that the show is based on. And we went up there,

watch the fights. It was a very cool night. Yeah, it was fun. What time did you get up the next day? I got up. I don't know about cam. Let's give him a hard time. He says, what, you know, what are you? Are you going to get up tomorrow morning? And I said, I'm not even going to get home until three in the morning. And that's right. That's when I got home. I got home at three o'clock in the morning. I

think I got up around maybe eight, eight, 30 something like that. The fact that you don't do the 4, 30 AM thing after a night out makes me feel at least a little bit more model. If it's going to be less than four hours of sleep, then I'll make some kind of adjustment. You'll just push it the next day. Yeah. What was it like to see the UFC live? Have you seen that before? I've been to so many UFC's, I don't know how many of these have been to, but I've been to a lot. When I was younger, I spent a

lot of time coaching and training fighters. So I cornered a bunch of fighters in the UFC. And so I've been to, I don't even know how many UFC's have been to, but I haven't been in a long time. I haven't been in probably three, four years. So it was cool to go and see one again and get back up there. UFC, seeing the UFC live is awesome. And look, people will say, and even I'll say this too, it's great to sit at home and get all the different angles and hear the commentary. That's cool.

There's a benefit to that, but there's a lot of hype and a lot of energy that's in the room or in the stadium when it's going on. And so being there live definitely is worth doing occasionally to make sure you don't forget what that's all about. How do you handle the next day now if you've had a few drinks the night before? I actually don't drink. So, you know, there's really no factor for me. I drank more than my fair share when I was in the military. And then when I retired from the

military and I kind of just over time, over time, I just kind of wasn't drinking anymore. Now, I just don't really drink anymore. There's not much in it for me. You know, I'm an old man with, I'm married with kids and businesses and all this other stuff going on. So I'm not going to get much out of, out of drinking anymore. And a big price to pay the next day as well if you did decide to do it maybe. I guess I, sure, I guess that might be some of it, but there's just,

I just don't, I'm not going to anything out of it. So two of the biggest elements in your life have been your military training and your martial arts training. What would you say are the commonalities between the best BJJ athletes and the best special forces operators that you've worked with? There's probably the, the biggest commonality between the two is some kind of strange contrast

between being extremely disciplined and being extremely creative. So clearly if you're going to get good at Jiu-Jitsu, you got to be the, you got to be disciplined enough to train all the time. Same thing with being in the military. If you're going to be a good operator, you have to have the

discipline to push yourself in training. But you can't be a person that, you know, lean so hard towards a disciplined structured life that you don't have any creativity because both in Jiu-Jitsu and on the battlefield, you want to, you definitely want to have be creative and figure out creative solutions and things that people have in thought of and things that the enemy is not going to think

of or that your opponent's not going to think of. So you've got to find that person who has a good balance between discipline and kind of a wild freedom creativity that they can make adjustments. It's interesting to think that more focus or more efficiency isn't always the solution to everything. So the analogy I'd use is if you think about an artist's creative studio where they need their creativity, it's not orderly. You know, there's half coffees and easels and sketches and

paint and all sorts of stuff all over it. What does that engender? What's that environment creating for them? But then when they need to go and file their taxes, trying to file their taxes in that same room is probably not a good idea. And I guess that flip-flop between off and on, right, between focus and play, it seems like a very interesting thing to think about, especially in a military context. What does that mean when you're talking about a special force whose operator

being creative? You know, there's a certain level of inside the military in general is if you're going to, you have to be a person that kind of follows the rules and stays within standards. And that's great. And you're going to, you're going to be a good, solid soldier if that's what you are. But if you have a mindset that's so highly disciplined and so highly structured, like I just said, then you're not going to think creatively when there's a problem that needs to be solved.

So you want to have people that don't mind the discipline and can actually access the disc discipline in a way that they can utilize it, but you don't want people to be trapped by discipline. And it's the same thing in Jiu-Jitsu. If you have someone that only knows how to do a certain move, and they can't think creatively about other ways to employ that, that's not that they're not going to be good because they are going to be good. But they're going to, they're going to reach limitations.

And you know, one of the interesting things in the SEAL teams is we didn't have, especially when I was coming up, we didn't have any doctrine whatsoever. There was no written doctrine of any kind. So everything that you learned was word of mouth. You learned from the guys that went before you. And that meant if the guys that went before you weren't, didn't really know what they were doing, you're probably learning a bad way. And if you didn't think, if you didn't think objectively about

it, then you might follow someone down a path that doesn't make any sense. So you ended up with a bunch of guys in the SEAL teams that were pretty open-minded and they could kind of look at problems and figure out how to solve them. In the army and the Marine Corps, they have doctrine for just about everything. This is how you do a raid. This is how you conduct an ambush. They had written doctrine for this. So if you didn't know how, you could just look at a book, which is actually a huge

benefit for them. Because if I'm a new platoon commander, not how, don't know how to do an ambush, I can just look at this book and I can learn how to do it. And so there's some huge benefits to not too, to having a very disciplined doctrine that you can follow. But that's one of the odd advantages of the SEAL teams is that since we didn't have any doctrine, we had to be a little bit more free-thinking. And that made us a little bit more adaptive in some situations. So it's just

like anything else. Your strength can be your weakness, your weakness can be your strength. And you have to be aware. And if you're aware that it's a strength, and if you're aware that it can also be a weakness, and if you're aware that it's a weakness and you're aware that it can also be a strength, then you can probably optimize the way that you're going to think, which is pretty beneficial. Do you think that can be trained, that creativity? Yeah, I think creativity can be trained.

It just like any other natural trait, some people are going to have more propensity to be creative than someone else. And some people are more rigid than other people in the way they think. And you can take someone that's more rigid and you can make them more creative. But everyone's going to have some kind of a limitation. And some people might have a pretty, pretty, pretty subdued limitation of how creative they're going to get. And some people can really be trained to get a

lot better at that. Where did you fall on that spectrum? I would say I fell, I would say I fell pretty hard in both directions. So I was, you know, a disciplined person that believed in instruction. I liked structure. And at the same time, you know, I was, I would definitely think of things in a different way. And I was a very rebellious kid. And I think rebellion could be somehow tied to creativity and looking at things and saying, hey, that doesn't make sense to me. So I'd say

that I had, I had say was pretty, a pretty strong degree of both of those things. And that's what made me who I am. Well, especially the music that you listen to as well growing up, right? I don't think almost all of the kids that I know that grow up listening to metal or hardcore, they've, you can't listen to that and not have a rebellious streak in you. Yeah, you definitely can't listen to that and not have a rebellious streak in you. And that, that's, that, that did

kind of drive my way of thinking a lot when I was growing up. And not only did drive my way of thinking, I think I found that kind of music because that's the way I was sort of engineered in the first place. So yeah. Who are you listening to when you grow? Bad brains, black flag, agnostic front, crow mags, black Sabbath is my favorite band of all time. Yeah, those kind of bands. A lot of your work is, it's focused on encouraging people to take ownership and responsibility for

things. One of the things that I've been thinking about a lot recently is whether it's possible to take too much responsibility or too much ownership where you start to believe that you're at fault or you're accountable for things and blame yourself too frequently. Blame yourself too much. You think that's possible? There's a way that it can happen. Usually from a leadership perspective, when people ask me this question,

hey, is it possible to take too much ownership? The answer is yes. And that is if I'm in charge and you're working for me and I take so much ownership over a mission or over a project that you don't feel like you have any input at all, then I've taken too much ownership. As far as, as, as like as an individual person, there's going to be things in your life that you don't have control

over. And you know, one of the one of the early questions that I got asked about this, you know, like for instance, someone gets a terrible disease and or their kids gets a terrible disease. A random disease that's at through no fault of anyone, the kid gets sick or the person gets sick. And no, there's nothing you can do about that. What you can take ownership, those, how you respond to that situation. And so that's what you have to do. There's things that you can control. There's

things you can't control. Now I will tell you that human beings can control a lot more than they think they can. And oftentimes it's pretty easy just to say, oh, that's not me. That's not on me. I think that's that's the whole genesis of the idea of extreme ownership is most of the time or much of the time. People say that's not my fault. There's nothing I can do about that. And more often than people think there is something you can do about it. And you can and it is your fault.

I find it interesting to think about it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility as well. And how that sits in amongst this. My concern with it is, don't get me wrong, I think that right now the vast majority of people need to take more responsibility. I think that it is a great counter to

a victim mindset. I think that it helps people with agency and sovereignty. I can see elements in my life though of times when I blame myself for things which I mean no way even remotely associated with. So for instance, let's say that I'm doing a podcast with someone or I'm doing a live event right now to soliciting some discussion. And I ask a question and the guest fluffes the response. Like gives a poor response. A lot of the time the first place that I would go is that was on me.

Somehow I should have asked a better question. And even if I'd ask the absolute perfect question and you could roll that forward into a relationship, you know, the inner relationship of the bad partner or something occurs, I just, I'm trying to find that line of how people can balance it so that they don't end up putting so much pressure and weight on them that it crushes them. Well, here's two examples of what you're talking about. You mentioned one relationship. Another one

is just if you're working for me. So if you're working for me and you don't show up on time or you're not professional when you're conducting your briefs, I need to say something to you. And I need to take ownership of the fact that I haven't made it clear that hey, you need to show up on time and hey, you need to be more professional and hey, you need to wear the right uniform

or dress the part. I need to take ownership of that. And maybe if I do and I talk to you and we discuss why it's important and you say, I really didn't think about that and you change your ways and you get on board and you start showing up on time and start acting more professional, it's great. We solve the problem. There's also a chance that you're late again or you show up, you know, with booze on your breath or whatever and we're meeting with a client and I say,

hey, Chris, you can't do this. This is, look, I'm serious. You cannot act this way. This reflects bad on all of us and maybe you, and I might even say, listen, if you keep this up, you're not even going to be working anymore. I'm going to have to get rid of you. You say, I love working with you. It's going to be great. I won't do it again and maybe that solves your problem or maybe you're late again or you continue acting on professionally and then I'm going to get rid of you. I'm going to

say, hey, Chris, look, I talked to you. I try to explain this to you and at a certain point, this job isn't for you. So that can happen. And I have to take ownership of the fact that you are actually not capable of doing this job that I've asked you. So that's fine. Same thing you have in a relationship, right? Look, if you're in a relationship with someone and you're bickering about where we're going to go for dinner or you came home late from work and all you do is, well, I've

been working all day. You should respect the fact that I've been working on it. That's actually on you. That's actually on you. And you can make adjustments to that. Now, can you get to a point in relationship where the other person is not a good fit for you? And at some point, you say, you know what? I've made these adjustments. I've come home, you know, on time. I've texted you when I was going to be late. And these, these other things are coming up. And you say, you know what?

I don't think this is working. And I don't think this is a good relationship. So at a certain point, you say, okay, I've made the adjustments that I can make and I have to take ownership of the fact that we're not a good match. So yeah, there's plenty of times where taking ownership means actually solving the problem, not continuing to to pour the problem down your neck every night because that's not very helpful to anybody. So yes, at a certain point, you have to, you have to make

adjustments and you have to move forward. There's a lot of similarities, I think, between your personal philosophy and Jordan Peterson's. I know you've spoken to him a couple of times. What have you learned from him? Well, the most interesting thing that I learned from Jordan Peterson, and I mentioned this the first time he came on my podcast was that, you know, he's a trained academic that studied this stuff his whole life. And we came to a lot of the same

conclusions about things. And I just came to those conclusions through living and the experiences that I had. And he came to them through studying this stuff in a very rigorous way. And the cool thing is luckily for me, I had written books that sort of predated. I got that first. Yeah, I got that first. It wasn't that I got there first, but I mean,

these were the thoughts that I had. I mean, discipline equals freedom. That book came out, I think, before I, before Jordan Peterson was on the scene, it's the book Extreme Ownership, which is about taking personal responsibility. What's about taking responsibility? And you can definitely apply it to personal responsibility. So luckily for me, those books kind of predated Jordan Peterson, and coming on to the scene and, and doing everything that he did, but again, it's not like I created

any of those things. It's not like I created it before he created it. And it's not like he created it before other philosophers had figured these things out. So I'd say that the most interesting thing about Jordan Peterson that I found, and I think it was pretty interesting to him too, was the fact that we both had kind of come to these same conclusions. And we had lived very different lives. I mean, I'm sure there's more disparate lives that we could have lived, but

they're pretty different lives. And that's, that was a very interesting thing. And it made me feel like, well, it made me feel good about the fact that the things that I had figured out were in line with things that he had figured out. And that means maybe there's a little bit more strength in universality to these things that I believed, which, which felt pretty good. It's nice to know or to think that something that's been proven in the field of battle or on

the field of play is backed up in academia, right? That someone can go through the annals of philosophy history and come to a similar conclusion as you. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the stuff of the stuff that I say is in the Bible, the stuff that I say is in stoicism. And Jordan Peterson, you know, says the stuff that I say or I say the stuff that he says again, I'm not trying to compete with Jordan Peterson on any level, especially some kind of an intellectual level. But

we have similar thoughts about things. And that predated either one of us knowing who each other were. So I think that's pretty cool. Why do you think people are drawn to advice that's telling them to do hard things? Kind of seems counterintuitive. Why do I think people are drawn to advice telling them to do hard things? Because I think any person, any human realizes that if you want some kind of a good outcome, you're going to have to work hard for it. And if you, and if you don't

work hard for something, you're not going to get an outcome. That's really worth much. Well, that is the thing that separates the achievements on the other side of it, right? If it was easy, everyone would do it. If it was easy, everyone would achieve it. So this is one of the things that I try and rely on when training's been getting hard. So I ruptured my Achilles a couple of years ago. That sucked. I wouldn't advise it as an injury,

generally. Yeah, and it's like a random. A lot of times people just do it, you know, getting out of their car or so. So it was playing cricket. The most British way to snap an Achilles. That's a very British way to snap your Achilles for sure. During that, during the rehab for that, it's pretty just uncomfortable. It's endless calf raises, right? Which is not fun. And the discomfort that you feel and the pain, the fear of it

re-rupturing, which is the number one thing you don't have to have happened. The thing that I went back to in my mind was this is why I'm here. The discomfort that I was feeling, the effort, the pain, the sweat. Thankfully, this was during COVID. So it meant that if I had to do a workout every single morning for half an hour on just my carbs, what else are you doing?

There's a pandemic going on. This is why you're here. Was the reminder, it's like, look, this is the reason why the re-rupture rate is 5% to 10% because people don't want to do this thing. People don't want to do the thing because it hurts. Because it takes half an hour every single day for nearly 12 months. It's a full 12 month recovery. That's why. This is why you're here. And I think that you're right. I think that the selection is people deep down know that picking up heavy things,

physically, psychologically, existentially, culturally is good for us. And I think that that's why it's attractive. I agree. Another thing that I think is that it's one of the reason why people can become a little bit triggered. They can become a little bit uncomfortable when they see somebody else that's got a lot of discipline. Because I think deep down, they know that if they had that thing, that that would fix a lot of the problems that they have in their life. Is this a dynamic

that you've seen? I'm sure that's a bummer for someone to look at someone else that's working really hard and achieving some positive things. And they know that they're not maybe working as hard as they could be. And they're not really achieving what they want to achieve. I'm sure that's things a little bit. Another thing that Jordan said recently is that the problem with Twitter is that the price of being a prick has fallen to zero. I feel like you agree with that as well.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'd agree with that. If you're going to spend a bunch of time on Twitter, you're going to run into a bunch of people that don't like you. And they're going to say it. And there's nothing you can do about it. And the ability for people's words and the consequences of those words to become detached as well is something that's only pretty recent. I mean, I guess you could have sent a mean telegram a hundred years ago. Yeah. I would recommend that you don't

let random bots or people on Twitter bother you that much. That's my recommendation. I would recommend you to. You know, the first time I kind of experienced that it was when I was on I was on Rogan for the first time. And the YouTube video came out and I sat there with my oldest daughter who is probably maybe 14 or 15 at the time. And I sat there and read these heinous comments about me and laughed. I mean, it was kind of, you know, someone were pretty good. It was kind of

funny. So yeah, I'm not I'm not getting bothered by somebody that wants to talk smack about me for whatever on Twitter. And also there's there's probably some truth to whatever they're saying, you know, they say I'm a big knuckle dragger. Yeah, probably right. You know, they say I'm an idiot. Yeah, there's definitely some of that. What else? Do you swear much? I don't think I've ever heard you

swear. I don't swear a ton. And look, when I there's a there's a term we have in America, I don't know if you have this in England, but swear like a sailor, meaning people in the Navy, swear a lot. And certainly when I was in the seal teams, I probably swore every seventh, fifth to seventh word that came out of my mouth, especially talking to a seal, tune about something. But no, I don't I don't swear a ton. I mean, if you listen to my podcast

all the time, you'll see that when there's an appropriate time to swear, then I will. But even it's interesting, you know, if you swear all the time, it kind of loses its impact. And so when I do swear on the podcast, people usually say, oh, he's this is this is an important thing. Or this is a this is obviously very, very powerful emotion that he's feeling right because he just said a

swear word. So yeah, but I don't swear a ton when I'm and even when I was in the seal teams, I'd come home at night and went to where I don't swear in front of my wife and I went swear in front of my kids. So I would just turn it off and that's that. It's like when you hear Sam Harris swear if you ever hear him. Yeah, sprinkled very infrequently. But when it happens, you're okay. Yeah, it's an attention getter. Yeah. I have a friend Daniel Sluss,

a comedian and Scottish. So that combined is like a multiplying force. And I actually think that he probably uses more swear words than actual words. That salt bag guy, it's kind of like that, but just throughout every single sentence. Deprogramming it, I think, is important. It's something that I've really tried to work on. You know, just being a working class lad from the UK is it's part and parcel of the language, perhaps is being in the seals. Listening back and especially

hearing yourself speak a lot, which you've done over the last six, seven years or whatever. I know, there's something about it that I just I would rather save it for the times when I need it. Yeah, and there is if you're doing something like where people are going to listen to it, sort of detached from the moment that you're living in, then it's different as well. So it doesn't have this it doesn't come across the same. And you and I have any conversation over lunch

talking about whatever that that's different. And you know, those those words are a little bit more fitting in those situations. But if you're watching the UFC. Yeah, if you're watching the UFC, but yeah, yeah, look, I don't really if people swear it's not it's not like a huge concern of mine. I don't really care that much. But maybe you could improve your vocabulary a little bit and use not always rely on the same five swear words. Yeah. But some people use them well and they're

hilarious when they use them. Daniel Daniel uses his spectacularly. Yeah, I would say he's probably got a black belt in in swearing right on. I want to revisit your good video for the people that haven't seen it. It's a two minute long edit that was released seven years ago on your YouTube channel. And it's got like nearly 10 million plays or something now. And in it, you're encouraging people to respond to setbacks and things that don't go well by saying good by leaning into the

discomfort by seeing it as an opportunity. Was that anything you think that people misinterpreted about that video or about good generally as a concept? Look, look, if you take any idea and you take it to an extreme, then that idea is going to become bad. I mean, even the idea of extreme ownership, if you take it to an extreme where you're like, as you pointed out earlier, you're blaming yourself because your daughter got a disease or you're blaming yourself because

your husband is abusing you. Like there's a point where you think anything goes too far. And well, you know, I mean, there's there's some pretty good memes about that on the internet. I'm not nominal. Yeah, there's some good memes about that on the internet. Oh, crashed my car. My dog died. Good. Yeah, I need a new car anyways. So yeah, take it to an extreme. It can be it can become pretty silly or funny depending on how you take it. But for the most part,

you're going to run into challenges in life. And if you curl up into a ball and complain about it, that's not going to help you. And if you say, okay, cool. Good. Here's some adjustments I can make to move forward. That's going to be a better move than then cowering. Is there anything that you wish that you added in? I don't know. I mean, I said it during one of my podcasts and my friend echo turned it into a video. So that's it. If I wanted to, I probably would have expanded on it or

done something else. I don't know. Do you tell me did I miss something? I don't think so. I mean, it's pithy and obviously one of the as you've said there, it's extensive, not exhaustive as a solution. And this is this is Twitter and a nutshell that you have to sacrifice how explicit you're being for brevity, right? For being sufficiently succinct that people can understand it and you can get it in in a one minute 55 so that people can actually watch it and won't click off or whatever.

And people will then use the lack of detail to expand that out and say, yeah, dog died in the car crash and good, right? You can see how that's easy to criticize. But I think overall this is really great story actually. It was about Zeno of City and the guy that founded Stoicism. And often he was criticized that he was very abrupt when he would speak to people,

when he was giving his, because he was around in a time of the sophist, right? And sophistry was all about these big long extravagant philosophical treaties and they would use these super, super long words and stuff. And what he found was that people didn't like the fact of how abrupt he was, didn't like that. And someone once criticized him for it and he said, yes, I am. Thank you. If I could, I would even shorten the syllables as well. And I like the idea of someone that

uses previty in an effective way. And this sort of links in with something that I've been thinking about recently, which is to do with the outcomes that we get in life. So all of the concerns that we have, all of the sleepless nights and the neuroses and the overthinking and the confusion and the uncertainty and the self-doubt and all of that stuff, all combined together, I think probably

net us about maybe five or 10 percent better outcomes in life. It's my belief that most of the qualities that you have, your integrity, your virtue, your discipline, your hard work, your growth-mindedness, your humor, your resilience, all of that, are forces that are very, very difficult for you to slow down and that once they've got started, it's incredibly hard for you to stop them. And what you're doing with all of the extra concern that comes over the top of that is just making

your day-to-day experience of it a lot more miserable. And I've been thinking a lot about how can you, how can you, I'm off at the right, the love of fate, the love of the destiny that I have is the one that's going to come. I understand that I have control over it, I understand that I have agency, that I have sovereignty, that I can impact my destiny. But also that all of the work and the

effort that I put in previously is going to carry me through. And if I've been successful so far, that worrying about success going forward, whether or not it's going to occur, just it doesn't seem super smart. And then relating that to good is that not only do you need to, or can you accept something and say that it is good, you can also have the sense of resiliency, that you know that you've got through something that's worse than this before. How did you get on

last time? Do you face something that was difficult? You're still here. By virtue of the fact that you're listening to this, you're still here. And there's a part of that that makes me, it makes me think about good is an active philosophy, right? It's actively saying something happens, I'm going to lean into it, I'm going to be a forward motion, right? And then the backup that you seem to have behind that as well is look at all of the things I've dealt with before, look at all of the

effectiveness that I've come through with previously. I think that those two combined together are pretty powerful. I agree. Speaking about motivation and stuff as well, which is obviously kind of the other side of what you do. You know I'm laughing, right? Why? Because you were telling the story about this guy who gave really brief answers and then you talked for six minutes and I said, I agree. So just having fun. Good man. You and Zena have got a lot in common. Maybe.

Do you think that people overcomplicate motivation? Yes. I find that discussions about motivation a lot of the time. I mean you are the soundtrack to a lot of motivation compilation video. That's right. Yeah. Motivation universe 40 minute, get up and get after it, jaco video. So I think that a lot of the discussions about motivation can cause people to believe that there's some magical state that they need to be in before they do something.

Yeah. And as I've said since day one, motivation is a feeling that comes and goes and it doesn't matter whether it's there or not. Discipline is infinitely more important. So no matter how you feel, get up and do what you're supposed to do. That's it. And that's discipline. That's not motivation. If you only did what you were supposed to do when you were motivated to do it, that's leaving it to chance. But if you're disciplined, you go to what you're supposed to do. That's the way it works.

I went and listened to an episode you did with Sam Harris seven years ago now, long time ago. He came up with this really interesting idea where he said you can't fake courage. That's one of the most interesting ways to look at it. He said that courage or bravery I think is actually what he was talking about. It's an emotion that you can't fake. If you fake bravery when you're terrified, that is bravery. And I kind of feel like motivation is the same thing. If you do

the thing when you're feeling unmotivated, that is motivation. That's it. So you're saying that all of the jocco videos of motivation, they can just go off of YouTube. Well, I say in a lot of those videos and sometimes that's what it takes for people to get motivated is to realize that that motivation doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's a self-defeating video. Just shut up and go do

what you're supposed to do. Yeah, I mean, the difference between the person that spends all day wondering about whether they should go to the gym or not and the person that just goes to the gym or not, even if they both go, they net out at zero, apart from the fact that one person has spent the entire day obsessing over it. Yeah, and probably wasting some brain power on it. Does this thing called the, I'm a bro science called the anxiety cost, so you know, opportunity

cost, right? That you because of doing one thing, you can't do another thing. Anxiety cost to me is the wasted mental effort that you go through obsessing over something when you could fix it quite easily by just doing it. It's one of the most compelling reasons for doing a morning training workout for me. If you go to train every day, every morning when you wake up, your daily to-do list resets, right? You get out of bed and then you're to-do list of meditate and walk the dog and

answer emails and do all that. The sooner that you confront load that stuff, the rest of the day is just. Yeah, discipline equals freedom. That's it. I mean, if you have the discipline to get up and get the things done, well, I've usually, I often tell a similar story. This is the same thing that you just said, which is, you know the weekend where you really only had two things to do for the weekend,

whatever it was. You had to write this thing and you had to answer this other thing. And on Friday, you're like, I'll do it tomorrow and on Saturday, like I'll do it. And it's basically hanging over your head the whole weekend. Where's the view just done Friday afternoon, the whole weekend would have been a lot better. So just do the thing. I agree with you. Just do the thing. Just do the thing, man. What does courage mean to you? Is that a good definition from Sam? Do you think doing the thing

in spite of the way that you feel? Yeah, I think that's solid. Somebody asked me a question the other day, does courage have to involve risk? And I thought about it a little bit. I haven't thought- I don't

sit around and think about a lot of stuff, which might be obvious, I guess. But yeah, I think if you're going to get credit for courage, then there has to be some level of risk, whether it's, you know, capital risk and doing something in a business or physical risk if you're doing something to run into a fire to save somebody. Yeah, so I think courage has to have some kind of risk involved. And then yes, I agree with Sam Harris when he pointed out that if you're

acting, if you're doing the thing, then that's courage. No matter how you feel inside, you're you're a little brain. Are you sure that you don't spend that much time sat around thinking of stuff because I know that you do a ton of prep for each of your podcast episodes and as you're reading through a book, I mean, the insights that you pull out of that that you drag across

between you, I think you might be doing yourself a bit of a disservice there. Well, yes, when I'm reading a book, I'm certainly applying the context of my life and my experiences and what I know and what I think I know to that. So I guess, but that's different than sitting around and thinking. Oh, you mean like the sort of the trooking. Yeah, I don't do a lot of that. Maybe I should do more. I probably need to. I'd be interested to see that. I could see you sat in a smoking jacket somewhere.

Siga. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think when I run, I think when I'm doing Jiu Jitsu, I surfing. Yeah, I think when I'm surfing. And those are just, that's a great kind of empty mind. And there's times where I'm running and I have to stop and write something down. You know, I'll pull out my, because I'll be listening to some music or something. I'll stop and take a note in my iPhone about something that I just thought of. So it happens. Courage is very hard to find when

life gets comfortable for people. How can they stop their bravery from eroding when times are easy? I guess, I guess what we already talked about. Do something that's hard and do it every day. That's one of the nice things about Jiu Jitsu. You're going to get choked. You're going to be uncomfortable. You're going to get smashed. You're going to have to tap out. Your ego is going to get abused. Your go do that. Go do that. Go for a run. Lift. There's just too hard stuff.

And that's a good way to keep that, I guess, fresh. You think that maps across onto other areas of life as well? It certainly seems like it does. But there's no guarantee on any of this stuff. The really, there's no guarantee. And it depends on what, you know, what kind of courage you're talking about. Are we talking about courage where you're going to die? Or you could possibly die? Or you, you know, is that what we're calling courage? Because there's people that have come from

every walk of life that have stepped up in that situation. And there's people that have come from every walk of life and have failed in that situation. So if you're talking life or death, I mean, I think you actually have to get to someone that is sort of good with dying and they're okay with it. And then they're going to have a lot easier time pushing into that fold. If it shows up, have you seen those Detroit self-defense videos? Yeah, I think, oh, I know I have,

I'm trying to think how I saw them. But yeah, because a lot of Jiu Jitsu people will repost those things. Yeah. What, what do you think that people misunderstand? When it comes to life and death, fights, street fights, what do you think most normal people who haven't been in one misbelieve? I don't know what that has to do with those Detroit videos. Those Detroit videos are definitely. It's a pantomime. Yeah. So I guess, so I guess to answer your question, what do most people

not understand about a street fight? They're probably not used to just the level of violence that's going to occur. They're not, they're, maybe this is, maybe this is what you're getting out with the Detroit self-defense videos or whatever they are. The choreographed maneuvers that work when you and I are going through them and sort of dancing, those aren't going to work in real life.

And so if you think that you're going to be able to drop someone with one punch, are you thinking about all those things that that that are sort of the old traditional martial arts doing kata? And I do this to you and it causes this reaction. Then my next move is over here. Yeah, this stuff doesn't really work in street fight. Just yeah. The growing cake and the palm of the hand to the nose to run away from the female to run away

from the attacker and stuff like that. Yep. It's not going to work well and it's not very reliable. If you want to learn how to fight, you got to learn how to fight. You know, you got to do Giujitsu, Moitai, wrestling, boxing. That's what you need to do if you want to learn how to fight. Have you been to go and see what Tim Kennedy is doing? I put his place with his self-defense courses. I have not been to one of his courses. It's called Sheep Dog Response, but I've seen what he's doing.

And of course, you know, Tim's, Tim's not only is he well versed in martial arts clearly. He's also well versed in weapons and he's also well versed in violence. And so I know what he's teaching is legit stuff. I'm pretty sure they're using live handheld tasers as well. During that, to just show people precisely how difficult it is to whatever do the the face palm and the eye gouge and the fish hook and run away. And I think he runs, I think

he must be monthly. He does a special one for not military personnel for the police. Even them, the amount of training, I think. I mean, we've seen this recently right that the training seems to be insufficient. Yeah, the training for police officers is totally insufficient. And it's horrible because it's a very difficult job that you should be training. I've been saying for the last several years that police officers should train 20% of the time. 20% of the time that

they work, they should be training. And right now, it's not even a measurable percentage of time that they're working. I mean, it's probably in the fractions of a percent that they're training. They get horrible training. And they're in really dynamic situations and in doing an incredibly hard job. You don't know how to do that stuff. You know, you talk about the misconceptions of a street fight is the person that thinks, well, you know, when I, if someone messes with me,

I'm just going to get wild. And they think that's going to work. And that's not going to work, especially getting someone that's trained. So if you think that you're going to have some magical powers because you're angry or because you're adrenaline's going, that's not, does not true. And it's going to, it's going to cost you in a big way. Especially if you come up against somebody like Tim Kennedy, who's genuinely trained. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And, and you know, this day and

age, well, I mean, I live in San Diego, California. A lot of people train. A lot of people train. I wouldn't say it's the majority of people trained, but there are a lot. If you get no fight in San Diego, there's a decent chance you're fighting against someone that knows how to fight. And look, there's jujitsu on every street in San Diego. Jujitsu academies. So, yeah, if you just think you're going to be a tough guy, it's going to be rough. It's going to be a

rough tour. That's where a video of the other day that you may have seen as well. Tim talking about changes he was making to his everyday carry. You see this? I don't think so. It was changing the weapon that he was using the pistol because recently, some of the active shooters have been using body armor. So he's now gone to a relatively small caliber, but a armor piecing round. Are you concerned about this increasing sophistication that seems to be coming from people that are

shooters? Yeah, there's an escalation there, right? But that's the military went through this with the people we were fighting. They start wearing body armor. Cool. Roger that. You want to wear body armor? We'll get armor piercing rounds. It's just a natural escalation of things, unfortunately, but it's the way it is. It's kind of like the predator prey dynamic, right? The evolution. Yeah. Yeah. The enemy's going to make adjustments and we're going to have to adjust back.

What are your principles for an everyday? Are you allowed? Can you have an everyday carry in San Diego? Yes. Right. What are your principles that you follow for that? The same as a normal person that wants to protect themselves. Well, we had this recent fourth of July shooting right and then before that, we had Yvalde and then before that, we had Buffalo. Have you got any idea if this is the sort of thing that can be stopped or can be restricted in some way?

Yeah. I did some podcasts on these things and some of the biggest or I would say one of the most startling things and about as you watch the evolution of this. So in 1955 in America, there was 340 inpatient beds for people with mental health issues per 100,000 people. So for every 100,000 people in America, there was 340 inpatient beds for those people from people with mental

health problems. In 2007, it was 17 beds per 100,000. So the mental health capacity for treatment in America is gone down in what a 95%. And there are some legitimate reasons why this happened. And a lot of it had to do with the fact that people were getting put in these institutions and there were some horrible abuses that were going on in some of these mental institutions. People being committed that didn't want to be in there.

People that were abused once they were in there. People that could never get out of there. And there was a backlash against that. And all of a sudden became in the 70s. Hey, this mental health facilities are evil. They're bad. There's abuse going on. We need to shut them down and they shut down a lot of them. And so in doing that, it certainly appears to me that they threw the baby out with the bathwater. And now we've got, I mean, you think San Diego, there's

two or three million people here. There's a lot of people that need help, that need help, mental health help. And there's just not a great place to get it. I don't know, talk to police officers a lot. Police officers come upon people all the time that they don't need to get put in jail. They need to get put in some kind of a mental health facility, but they don't exist. And so they go into jail for a little while. They come back out. And it's a problem. So if you take just the

numbers of the beds, right? What has that done to all the other aspects of mental health? Like, what about the outpatient people? How many doctors used to be ready to help somebody that was feeling depressed or was feeling angry? There probably were a lot more doctors back then that had the capability of treating those things. So we've really shut down our capacity to help people

from mental health perspective. And then on top of that, we've added all these things into society that create more mental health problems, i.e. drugs, alcohol, social media, the fact that someone can stay in their house all the time. But then we put COVID on people where they had to stay in their house all the time. They're getting stuck in echo chambers. There's all these things that add to mental health problems. And we've really done away with a lot of the treatment that we had before.

So hopefully in the coming months and years, we can start to get back to a place where we start to build up our capacity for treating people that have mental health issues because these shooters and these scenarios, they clearly are, they have mental health problems. It's a trend as well that's dominated by young men. It seems, and that seems especially sad because these are men that could be out working a job or starting a business or being in the armed forces, contributing to something

and instead they're off on a rampage somewhere. One of the differences we were talking before we started about the differences between the US and the UK, I've spent a lot of time late nights in city centres working nightclubs. And I've spent a lot of time around homeless people. Two in the morning, the only people that are out at club promoters and homeless people and party goers. And the difference between homeless people in the UK and homeless people in the US

is more stark than the difference between the cultures by distance. They are significantly more antsy evidently in discomfort and talking to themselves, shuffling along, rocking backward and forward, much more forthcoming, significantly more forthcoming, significantly more aggressive, even though

I've never had anything super bad happen. Downtown San Diego, downtown Denver, downtown Austin, I haven't spent a ton of time in America but I mean there are a lot of them and the safety net that we have in the UK to sweep up people who fall through the cracks like that is it seems to work.

Right? You know someone someone ends up in a really bad way mentally, where you go, we'll pop you into a ward, you'll be looked after, we'll be given the medication that you need, there's no insurance that restricts that but as you said earlier on it's like a vicious cycle of the people

who are the ones that are the most vulnerable are the ones that maybe get sent to jail, perhaps to get hooked on drugs, the drugs make their mental health conditions worse which means that they can further ingrain themselves into a life of either crime or homelessness which takes them further away from a job and that balanced life and yeah I mean it kind of doesn't surprise me

but it's pretty sad to see. Yeah I'd be interested to know the numbers of inpatient beds per 100,000 in the UK because if you think about the homeless people that you've seen in San Diego and there's 2 million people here, right? There's a lot of those people that probably would be swept up and put into a place where they're getting the right mental health treatment that they need and mental health treatment is not an easy thing to do. It can take an extended period of time to get someone

sorted to a point where they're able to be go out and contribute to society. So yeah I'd be interested to know those numbers and even from what you're saying right now my guess is England's probably doing a better job of getting people the help that they need. How long have you been my right now? I think 25 years. And you met your wife in Bahrain, right? Yeah. Do you remember the story about the first thing that you said to her? Yes. Would you tell that? Yeah so

I was on a deployment in the Navy, I was on a ship. While we were on a ship this is back before internet on ships and we to occupy our time when you're a seal on a ship there's nothing to do.

You don't have a job so you just sleep eating lift is our joke and you can only sleep eating lift so long and then we we had a certain selection of movies on video tapes and so one of the movies that we had was Ace Ventura Pet Detective with Jim Carey and so we did a lot of imitating Ace Ventura Pet Detective and when I so we eventually went to Bahrain my the other squad there's two squads in a seal. The other squad had actually gone to Bahrain before us. Squad two

went to Bahrain for a few days. They were ahead of us and we didn't know anything about Bahrain. We didn't know what was going on there because there's again there's no internet. You just know some go to some random place in the desert and squad one had work to do so we stayed on the boat for a couple extra days and then when we finally flew to Bahrain squad two was waiting for us and

they were they were saying hey this place is like there's good times to be had there's bars and girls and the whole nine yards and so they had like they were staged and ready to take us out and yeah we went to a bar and I and I we a big giant packed kind of club slash bar and I saw a

a tall beautiful blonde woman and actually actually one of my friends in squad two had said to me oh there's these two girls you're gonna be he's like I know you're gonna talk to him and he was kind of a shire guy and I said oh I'm sure to work out with you man you're you'll

do fine and sure enough walked in this bar saw my saw my future wife and I just walked up to her and I said in like a Jim Carrey tone I said uh should I just call you Aphrodite he's goddess of love and she looked at me like I was an idiot which was accurate and then you know I bought her a drink

and the rest as they say is history how did you save that I want to know how you turned that opening line around you know it was I did it in a ridiculous enough way that she could tell it's probably tell I wasn't taking myself too seriously I mean it it wasn't serious right so

if you're not being serious she laughed and we were good I didn't I didn't say it I didn't say should I just call you Aphrodite you're goddess of love no if I would have said that I probably wouldn't have ended up with her yeah I was having fun what have you learned since being married to a

Brit is there anything that you think has been a unique insight you know Britain England the UK long allies with America even though I guess originally it didn't start off that way clearly look the Fourth of July was a very difficult day for me yeah it was a very difficult day happy

treason day to all of it and grateful colonias no I love the historical aspects of England you know the the the military that I've worked with the Brits that I've worked with kind of to me represent what I think of when I want when I think of England and when I the way I the way I kind of hold

England and the UK in an elevated way in my mind the the British military that I've worked with have maintained that standard completely professional stiff off upper lip squared away ready to work and just just just the really just professional and that's the way I always think of England

I'm interested here in the disciplining process of getting married and becoming a father because you were someone who had already worked hard on being disciplined but this feels like a very different type of discipline to the discipline to put up with a baby that won't stop crying it's the discipline to be able to comfort somebody while you're away from them that to me feels like a different sort of frequency of discipline and I'm interested in what you've found as a challenge and what you

found as whether your military career had prepared you for marriage and and fatherhood effectively well first of all a insane amount of credit goes to my wife who is just she one of the things I've tried to explain to people about her is that she was emotionally independent meaning she

didn't need me to to bolster her up and she handled everything she handled everything on the home front literally everything and I would just go and go do my job and she never complained about that she never made any comments about it it was she knew kind of the priority for me was

my job and that later on in life and and that strategically in our lives the the priority was the family but she also knew that while I was in the SEAL teams that was my number one priority she knew that and I told her that and she said yeah I know I get it do you take care of your team you take

care of your platoon you take care of your task unit and I got this I got these kids in this house and all that other stuff and she never complained she never she just she just did it and so the the majority the vast majority of credit goes to my wife for being an awesome human being an awesome

mom to our kids and I was I would love to give you some kind of this is what you need to look for and and I that's probably the best I could do but I can't say that I looked for it I got very very lucky I got very lucky that my wife was was look you can judge her looks and I obviously she was and is

a beautiful woman but the luck part was she was like I said emotionally independent she was strong to be able to handle just just mayhem mayhem on a pretty regular basis you know not you know from from having a bunch of kids to I'm gone on deployment and my wife is going to visit my

wounded guys in the hospital or going to my guys funerals that's what she was doing so you know team effort for sure but she's the MVP and I'm just sort of you know the bench the bench warmer over here the now all that being said the you know from the military look taking ownership

of things which which I already talked about a little bit but there's nothing really that goes on in my family that I don't that that I would say no to my wife no that's your fault because I can just about guarantee that everything is my fault when when there's something that's not right when

there's something going wrong it's something that I it's a mistake that I made I did something wrong deescalation right because my wife while borderline saint there you know she's a human being a lot of my friends would argue that she's just a saint but she is a human being and you know she

might get mad about something she might get frustrated with me about something and being able to deescalate those situations and not not escalate them is very very beneficial and one of the best ways to do that is by taking ownership when something goes wrong so I would say the deescalation part

taking ownership is definitely beneficial if you're blaming your your wife you're probably that's not going to work out great and and just the idea of you know trying to win trying to win an argument I mean first of all honestly I don't really are I I don't really argue with my wife

I probably have been in less than a handful less than three or four arguments in my life with my wife and I can't even I can't even really think of any right now I just don't want to you know you know try and try and make myself out or make our relationship out to be something that's not

but we don't really argue very often and so I can't even really say that hey don't try and win an argument with your wife because I'm not really having an argument with my wife um I guess my I guess my synopsis of this is pay attention to who you're going to get married to and try and

pick someone that is emotionally independent that has their own has their own that that can handle life by themselves and that that can be that can make some people feel insecure right I want someone that's relying on me all the time and I want them to feel like they need me need me

and that might be a trap for you if that's what you set yourself up with so that's what I do find someone that's emotionally independent find someone that you get along well with find someone that's that's um calm you know someone that's not you know that's not going to get get bent out of shape

about little things and if they do a little deescalation can kind of get the problem solved and then just uh have fun you know my wife and I have fun and I think that's important it's very interesting to think about the fact that some people rely on a partner who is

overly vulnerable or um overly anxiously attached as a way to bolster their unsensibly assurance in a relationship I've seen this quite a lot yeah that's probably not going to be a great move and look you a person I don't know everyone all I can do is talk for myself and I would

recommend you find someone that's more your equal someone that you can engage with someone that's someone that you're part of a team with rather than someone that you're sort of domineering over I learned this the other day that there's only one sentence in the bible about

how you should choose a partner and it says that you should choose someone that you could go to war with I like it that works that's legit it's a team effort a relationship right and would you purposefully choose a particularly vulnerable teammate because you're always going to be

the person that's out in front probably not yeah yeah now to push back a little bit about the look you you there's guys I would be number one on my list to go to war with that probably you're not going to be the best spouses in the world you would get in relationship with them they're they're

going to be they're going to be tough for for a female to be married to because they're they're wild right they're wild animals and they're the exact type of person that you would want to go to war with and that I've gone to war with and a lot of times they're they're not going to be great

as as husbands fair point yes yeah people as well I've been thinking recently I spoke to Andrew Heuben in last week and he was explaining to me about the similarities between the grief process and the breaking up process only neurologically it's incredibly similar so distance

in time and space and something else I think and he was talking about how when you go through a breakup it is the same networks that are activated as through grief and as somebody that has been to probably far more military funerals than we can remember or would have liked to

do how does that inform your advice for people letting go of people that they lose in their life whether that be through a breakup or through them passing I talked about this on my podcast one time and speaking of jaco videos that are out there and people have made videos of this

yes I have definitely lost too many of my friends and it took me a little while to start getting pattern recognition on what what happens and it's a very clear pattern and once I kind of put that out there I've now heard from many many many scores of people that yep that's what it feels like

and I think if you know what it's going to feel like just like anything else if you know what to expect then it's easier to contend with so it's like a storm that is hidden you you know you lose someone someone that you know dies you are going to get put into a storm and what's scary

about it is it's an emotional storm and you have no control over it so you're going to break down star crying you're going to remember all bad things good things you're not going to be in control of your motions which is very difficult for adults because we're used to having some level

of control over our motions so for a period of time you're going to get hit with waves of emotion that you have no control over and they're going to knock you off your feet and you're not going to be able to finish a sentence you're going to it's it's very very difficult but over time

that storm is going to fade a little bit and those those waves are going to get weaker and those waves still may come so I don't know if you've lost anyone that's close to you no which is one of the reasons that I'm I'm an only child to parents like dogs dogs is it

so I have a particular interest right so there's going to be times where it's been a month since your friend died and you're going to be sitting there and you're going to hear a song or you're going to smell a burger that you you you once had with this individual and you're

going to get overcome with those waves of emotion again and you might start crying right there you might have this massive wave of emotion hit you and it'll and then it'll subside and over time the waves will become weaker and they'll become less frequent and and here's where people also

get in trouble they think that that means that they didn't care about that person and that's not true at all it's just that your mind is processing it and it's okay so that's what happens you start off with these huge uncontrollable emotional storm that storm will pass that's number one just

know that that storm is normal and it's going to pass and then it's going to still hit you but over time those waves of sadness and sorrow are going to get weaker and they're going to get less frequent and that's okay that's a good thing and look I haven't broken up with a with a girl in a long time

but I you know when when people ask me about breaking up with girls is you know I've what you have to do when it's not working with a girl is wish them luck to give them the best of luck wish them luck walk away and don't look back and you're still going to get those emotions those things are still

going to hit you but walk away and don't look back and there's two reasons for that number one if there's any chance that it's going to work out the best possible way for you to get it to work out is by walking away by wish them luck walking away and don't look back that's the best way how so

because if there is something there then she will let you know eventually and if there's nothing there you're going to know that too because you're never here here from her again that's fine the protocol for getting her back is to walk away and don't look back that's the protocols to move on

the protocol if she doesn't want you back is to walk away and don't look back so look and I know it's hard but you'll you'll get some of those waves but those waves will become less frequent and they'll become less powerful and eventually you can move on and then you know the last thing I'll

say about this is in both these scenarios is remember but don't dwell so so you've got you look you remember your friends you honor your friends you remember what they gave you what they taught you what you learned from them what was great about them what you missed about them you remember all

those things but you don't dwell in the past and and dwell on those thoughts and dwell on the loss all the time because that's not healthy either and it's not not going to help you and it's not what your friend would want you to do anyways I like the insight around when you are going through grief

and then you stop the sense of guilt that comes through because you feel now somehow that you're doing a disservice to that memory like you didn't really care or something like that yeah it helps to you know it helps to write about what I've told people to do is write that

personal letter and tell them what you loved about them what you're going to miss about them how you felt about them what you regret you write all that stuff in a letter put an envelope bring it to their grave and put it there and and that will help you process as well I mean I've

unfortunately or fortunately I've given a bunch of eulogies for friends that I've lost and in the beginning I didn't really recognize that that's a way of healing but certainly writing down your emotions your feelings what you're going to miss what you loved about them is very therapeutic

and it's very good and so that's another thing I recommend is you write that stuff down and you you bring it to them that's another Petersonism from his rules for life he says if memories still make you cry write them down yeah that's a you know I talk a lot about being able to detach from

your emotions and it's very important well when you write something down you are literally detaching from those thoughts because they're going out on a piece of paper that you then you can see so it's a very important thing to do to write down if there's emotions that you have to deal with

write down and I just like to give someone some kind of an objective so instead of just saying write down the emotions no here's write that person tell them and that will kind of be like a writing prompt to get you to write the right things about that situation I'm pretty interested

in your impact on kids so I had a comment from a father saying how much he couldn't wait for this episode because his son's read all of your books and we're timing my nine-year-olds mile run times every week because of Jocco so if if nothing else there is a nine-year-old out there with his

dad stood with a stopwatch as he sprints around a park and a Saturday morning or something at the moment what what business does a seal have writing kids books well I don't know necessarily if any seal has any business doing anything I know that I have four

kids and that I wanted to when I was raising my kids there was there wasn't really any books that carried the message of the values that I wanted my kids to have and so I just wrote my own and there you go pretty straightforward is that similar to you do you think entering into the

is there a reflection there from the seals the fact that there wasn't a guide book or a handbook for operations when you first came in and you've almost had this twice you've had this in both your career and in fatherhood as well yeah like there is there is some weaknesses to not having

doctrine and there's also some strength when you do have doctrine and you know you know that boiled down to I was very lucky that I joined the military because when I joined the military it was I had a structure a pathway to execute on and that's very very beneficial for a young idiot

kid that's filled with energy and rebellion and aggression that's that's awesome here take all that energy and aggression and rebellion and and focus in this direction it's going to be beneficial and you'll actually get rewarded for it you'll get promoted for it that's amazing and kids

didn't really have any kind of a code where hey these are some general rules that will that you will benefit from in life and so there you go that's the warrior kid what about kids or the parents of kids that are being bullied in school this to me seems like a very unique challenge

generally for people to come up against because a lot of the time you're able to have an impact on a situation you're able to do something that moves it forward but you know you can go and have a conversation with the head teacher or whatever but that doesn't necessarily fix culturally sort of

what's going on within the school there's only so much that teachers can do in terms of oversight and you can't go into the school and punch the other kid in the face so that's also not the solution as much as you might want to do that well it's not going to help your kid any either

right you you have to train your kid to be able to contend with the world not tell your kid that you're always going to be there to back them up and beat up anyone that gets in their way like that's not going to help your kid be a come a better human so no what you want to do is teach your

kid what you want to do is to actually teach your kid how to fight you want your kid to train you jitsu you want your kid to train boxing you want your kid to be an actual force to be reckoned with and and what's crazy about this is you know as you mentioned earlier if there's a bigger a

much bigger person than you they can still beat you up you know and that's the thing with kids you know if you're 10 years old you can be a really well trained 10 year old but a 14 year old is probably going to get the better of you and maybe 15 year old but there's still going to be

situations that it's going to be you you're going to lose a fight that being said the risk for the bully goes exponentially higher when he knows that he's got someone on his hands that can actually actually knows how to fight and so the probability of bullying taking place goes way down way down

and even if that bully wins the fight he's not going to look good it's going to be a problem he he's going to he's going to get a a a victim a worthless victory because he's going to beat up so he's going to barely get the better of someone that's a lot smaller than than the bully

himself so and all this stuff all this stuff I guess we can talk to Andrew Huberman but this is stuff you recognize there's a there's a primal recognition of someone that knows how to fight and someone that doesn't and this is this is kids can recognize this they recognize oh

I'm getting in this kids face and he doesn't seem to be bothered by this and he's got a little bit of a smile on his face I might not want to push this any further and and that's a real thing so jujitsu boxing wrestling moitai will elevate that primordial confidence in a young man or a young

boy or young girl that is going to prevent so much bullying from happening that it's incredible so look can you still get beat up yes you're absolutely can are you probably going to do okay yes you most likely are is your now what's what's lame is you know if you go back pre UFC

there be martial arts instruction that would hey we're going to help your kid with their confidence and they would kids would get more confident but it wasn't based on reality you know going back to the Detroit you know your friend at the Detroit defense tactics or whatever

to be calling my friend going back to that guy he's teaching things that might help someone's confidence but they're not going to help in real life yes so is that potentially even more dangerous it's it's it's infinitely more dangerous because a kid that knows jujitsu a 10 year old kid that

knows jujitsu and and there's a 14 year old kid that kid knows hey even though I know jujitsu it's going to be a problem this kid's a lot bigger than me he's probably stronger than me and this is going to be a problem I need to figure out a way to deescalate this as opposed to getting told

hey all you have to do is this strike and that that strike and then you'll win a fight now that's actually not true so yes that is more harmful to have somebody with fake confidence that that's a real problem but in training and in becoming stronger in being able to do pull ups in being able to

run you know for the young kid that's running that kid's got some good cardio if he's time in his mile runs right all those things are going to help make a more capable human who is a lot less likely by the way he's more confident guess what else he has when he's more confident he's got

more friends his friends are now looking at this bully going hey man you don't want to mess with our friend and now we have a situation where it's probably going to get deescalated just because of school yard politics and primal politics that play out between any group of human beings I'll

never forget when I was in secondary school one of my friends Carl his grandad was a judo teacher and had been for a very very long time and Carl had done it since he could walk since he walked he was he was doing judo and he's now 14 15 knows a one of those kids in school that must

have hit puberty at nine or something and this guy is huge and he was one of the the big bullies in school and I'll never forget that he squared out to him and Carl was grinning in his face smiling in his face just couldn't wait for something to happen and I think that that kind of highlights

one of the main differences a getting in a fight is probably not that bad as a kid in fact it could be a useful formative experience to make you to educate you in the future about what it feels like to be in a physical altercation with people the thing that's concerning it is the fear around

the fight right it's the anxiety and the worries about the bullying so in a way yes the skills you need to have the skills that actually back up you don't have a reality which detached from what you predict is going to happen but one of the most important things is to just

feel comfortable in a situation that is going to become dynamic 100% you know I tell this when I start talking to women about self-defense if you have never had someone to grab hold of you the mental hurdle you have to get over just to be able to respond in an adequate way is immense

that mental hurdle is immense if you do it too someone's grabbing a hold of you 27 times a day on the mat they're grabbing your neck they're grabbing your arm you're totally used to this to this close proximity combat that you're entering into so yes a huge benefit of training to fight

is that you don't have any mental hurdle to get over your friend that trained judo his whole life he was just ready to rock and roll at that point there's no fear whatsoever this is what he does every single day that's again a great reason to get out there and train it's kind of like a super

power yes it's a hundred percent juditsu is a hundred percent of superpower there's no doubt about it I mean this 100% you know that's one of my kids asked me when it was my son he asked me when he was a little kid the movie The Incredibles came out and he said hey dad is there really such a thing

as superpower and I said hmm yes there is it's a little thing that you do every day it's called juditsu and and eventually he realized that oh I can actually fight anybody and it's going to be fine and that's a very beneficial thing to have because there's always I guess I'm a little

bit biased because of the way kind of the how I grew up there's always violence there's always some sort of inferred level of violence I mean a seal put in there's a pecking order you know and it has to do with with fighting and and that's the same with any group of of of knuckle drag or

neanderthal men that aren't a group there's always a guy that's yeah that guy's kind of he's the one that can kind of beat everyone up it's the way it is so I'm sorry that it's that way I'm sorry it's not a cerebral contest but man there's only two forms of communication one of them is words

and the other one is violence and when the first one fails that's when the second one comes about and I absolutely think I do I've stood on the front door of a thousand club nights right I've met about a million people stood on the front door of night clubs I have seen

literally hundreds of fights occur when people have had a bit to drink and I spoke to a an anthropologist and he was drawing parallels between the ways that particularly guys when they first start to fight especially if they've their inhibitions are lowered a little bit and he was

drawing a parallels between that and the way the other animals fight as well so you said one of the first things that you'll see men do is that they'll start to circle each other you said what the deer do you know when they've got the they've got the antlers and they'll circle what they're

doing they're kind of they're sizing each other up and they'll circle and they'll circle and they'll circle and then they'll come in and they'll push first maybe and what's that doing oh it's getting kind of a feel for what's going on it's getting a sense of just how big is it do I really really

want to go do I want to go do I do I I'll give it and then maybe you come back and do it again and then a circle a little bit more and circle a little bit more I thought it's so fascinating do I really want to go do they really want to go to like maybe I can just get away with a push and

they'll realize that yeah there's some definite comparisons there there's I'm sorry to inform everybody but we're animals and that stuff yeah some of us more than others I just thought that were you talking about women doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is there some is there a particularly unique

challenge I mean women are very hardwired to avoid being grabbed and and laid on by a man that's much larger than them even if it is in a controlled situation right even if it isn't in a class or whatever there's some particularly unique challenges that the girls have when they begin to do

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or have you have you found that there are hurdles that girls have to get over just generally is there something like innate in the programming that kind of causes them to to react in a in a different way yeah I would say it's not normal for a girl or a woman to want

some dude all up on them and that's what Jiu Jitsu is you are all up on each other and you know it's it's a very for lack of a better word it's very intimate contact that you're having with another human being so there's it is a hurdle it's absolutely a hurdle for for women and girls

to get over and once I get over it's like okay cool and then it's much better to get over it on the mats in a Jiu Jitsu Academy than it is to have to contend with that psychological hurdle when you're in a problematic scenario and you're being attacked that is not the time to try and

figure out what matters and what doesn't matter and what this feels like and what that feels like and yeah you want to train and you want to overcome that hurdle in a nice safe environment thinking about the bullying topic I was considering about what that causes in later life so I had

a bit of a tough sort of school of bringing with bullying and stuff like that and I was thinking about it reflecting on it a lot and I realized that a lot of the things that that created downstream in later life are the things that I most value in myself and this has been a very difficult thing

for me to to kind of pass to just work out like hang on a bite do I need to thank the bullies in a way have they created some of the things in myself that I most value so for instance moved out to America to come and do the podcast that is only being afforded to me

really because I don't care about being solitary I don't care about being on my own I don't care about taking risks because for a very long time I was in any case on my own and everything was a risk going to school was a risk or going out for lunch was a risk or whatever and then thinking about how

thinking about how I noticed certain things right I went to a party not long ago and was obsessed about the fact for about the first five minutes obsessed about half of the people have taken their shoes and socks off but half of the people are only taking their shoes off and left their socks

on but the reason that I was paying so much attention is because in school I would obsess over the way that certain kids had their hair cut or the way that they would carry their bag or the way that they would do their tie because I was sure that that was the reason that they had friends

and I didn't I was trying to deconstruct in other people socially what was going on with them that meant that they and obviously I didn't realize it's that they were sociable probably and were communicating well and whatever you know a classic only child with like sprinkling of autism or whatever

so like but I really value that I value the fact that I I pay that much attention and it got me thinking more and more about a lot of the things that we really value in ourselves as adults are the light side of something that we probably are a little bit embarrassed about and I was wondering whether first off whether you see that dynamic in yourself whether there are there are things that you must value that that have costs that you need to pay and then also whether perfect childhoods create

weak adults. So going back to the conversation I had with Sam Harris he kind of called me out on the fact that I had said something along the lines of combat was sort of when I most felt alive and I wouldn't trade it for anything and I also would say the worst days of my life were

in war losing my friends and Boris Harble and the way I responded to it and I asked him if he had anyone had had ever known anyone that had cancer and had come out the other side and he said yes and I said oftentimes those people say I wouldn't wish it on anybody but I'm glad it happened to

me because it gave me such a better perspective about life and about value and about the fragility of life and all those things and that's the way I feel about combat I don't wish it on anybody but I wouldn't give it up I wouldn't trade it for anything and so I think what you're talking about

is a great way of looking at your past to say oh okay I had some hardships and I benefited from those it's basically the same thing as saying got bullied good now I know how to handle myself a little bit better I didn't have a bunch of friends good now I feel more comfortable when I'm alone

I think it's the same sort of attitude in in both those situations and then as far as as far as how people are raised and what you get it's it's an interesting thing and probably the only thing I can talk with any level of

understanding of and it's actually a lack of understanding is basic seal training because basic seal training you would think well you know this person comes from a hard background they didn't have much growing up they're hungry and now they have this opportunity and they're never going to quit

or you say oh you know this person went to a nice private school and they grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth and when they get to this harsh environment they're probably going to quit and the fact is that's not true in either one of those cases some kids that grew up

in very tough environments you know working 18 hours a day on a dairy farm they show up the buds and quit and some kids that grew up you know working 18 hours a day on a dairy farm they'll never quit and some kids that grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth they show up and quit

and some kids that show up with a silver spoon in their mouth they never quit so I think there's some inherent characteristic of a person that your environment plays a role but it can be overcome by determination and I think you probably have a lot more control over what you do in your life

than your background does that is the I think the genesis of why I love agency so much why I love the ability to live your life by design not by default the fact that you get to forge whatever the path is that you want to go forward like that to me is especially as someone that like I say

maybe groupfelling feeling a little bit helpless the fact that you realize hang on if I if I put this amount of work in and I dedicate myself and I'm committed and so on and so forth the fact that you can come out the other side of that and realize that it has real world

returns to you is it's phenomenal it's it's one of the most rewarding most empowering I hate that word but you know what I mean it's kind of it's what it's just been ruined like empower empowerment has been ruined is a word it's actually really useful and I can't use anything else but it's good

it's a great feeling yeah that kind of recognition is what allows people to move on in life and take control of their life and make things happen and you know going back to your earlier thing about you know if you're in a relationship with someone it's not working saying you know what this isn't

working and I'm gonna move on that's a good thing you have to take ownership and that doesn't mean ownership meaning I'm always at fault and therefore I'm gonna sit here and do nothing it's like oh I'm at fault for even being in this relationship with this person I'm gonna move on no factor

I've heard you say that you wouldn't be doing anything that you're doing now if it wasn't for surfing also well surfing oh I started surfing when I was 10 years old I was very lucky that a guy decided to teach me how to surf a lifeguard said hey I'm gonna teach you how to surf and he did

and yeah that's a huge that completely directed my life because when you're looking at all the special operations unit to units to go into you know there's Rangers there's special forces there's Marine Corps special operations there's all these different things that you can go and do and one of them is primarily focused on the water and one of them you can get stationed either in San Diego California or Virginia Beach Virginia and it was just such a no-brainer for me so you saying that

part of your military career was dictated by where the good surf was 100% 100% and making it through training if I wouldn't have surfed I may not have made it through training because your comfort level in the water is so high from surfing and you know I grew up surfing in New England and it's freezing cold and so the cold water to me was a joke and the water problems were relatively easy for me compared to someone that didn't spend a bunch of time in the water so surfing is a great thing to

have in your background if you're gonna go try and be a seal or you know if you played water polo if you're on the swim team something that makes you super comfortable in the water is going to be highly beneficial and that's probably the biggest separator in people that make it in fact it is

people that make it and don't make it if you're comfortable in the water you have a much better chance of making it if you're let me rephrase that if you're not comfortable in the water your chance of making it through seal training is very small so people that were swimmers in high school

or whatever massive massive advantage surfing massive advantage water polo massive advantage yep I heard someone say the other day that if they could if they could give their kids three sports to do throughout the childhood one would be a martial art that's effective one would be

gymnastics to learn their body in space and one would be some sort of swimming water based event to learn their body and water I thought those are those are solid picks right there seems seems like you're going to create a bit of a beast of a kid there yeah it's um the whole water

thing I mean you see this right look at any event look at CrossFit Games or something right and there's always one guy because there's usually a swim run bike or a paddle boards run something else event in there there's always one guy that swam in college and you go okay so these people

train six hours a day five or six days a week for forever and they're the elite of the elite when it comes to fitness and a homeboy is he's half the time of the rest of the field it can't be just due to fitness it's got to be due to something other people with more capacity he'll come

15th in a field of 40 over the overall but on that event you really do see the the experience that that someone that knows how to swim has is like worlds apart technique it's technique just like anything else just like Jiu Jitsu technique will win rock climbing technique will win

it's interesting that people think you'd be able to fight without training but you why wouldn't you be able to play guitar without training it's the same exact thing but when I get really angry the guitar your guitar comes out yeah is actually that's that's what people think

same thing with leadership people think oh well you can't really learn leadership it's like no leadership is a skill just like guitar is a skill there's moves that are just like playing chords and people don't understand that and and that's you know one of the reasons I am able to

to have this why have a company teaching leadership because it's like oh you mean you're not but just born with this you mean you're not just born knowing how to swim you're not just born knowing how to play guitar and you're not just born knowing how to lead you have to learn how to do

it and you can learn how to do it oh you can absolutely learn how to do it as opposed to a fixed mindset of this is me this is where I'm at I don't know guitar now therefore I'm never going to know guitar right I'm not a leader now I don't have creativity you know first thing that we we

spoke about can you explain to me I've always thought it's someone that knows surfing to explain this to me let's say that you're surfing a big swell and you go under can you explain how you get out from underneath a large wave when you're below the water I've heard about you swim out sideways

and there's like a particular well so in what you're talking about sideways I'm assuming what you're talking about is certain breaks have a channel meaning the waves break in one area but there's deeper water on either side of the break and therefore the waves don't break there and

you can see this since any any of the big famous surf spots or many most of the big famous surf spots you can look and you can see there's a boat sitting here taking pictures of people that are surfing the waves that boat is sitting in deep water and the wave is breaking in shallow water

so generally if you get if you fall or you're trying to paddle back out you go into the deep water and you paddle out and there's no waves breaking there yeah I thought it was I thought it was something to do with the fact that if you would down if you would take an under the water relatively

deep below where the waves were um that trying to swim either toward land or back is a bad idea I'm gonna guess that oh so what you're talking about is is a is a rip current so a rip current is an area of the beach where the the waves are coming in and a rip current takes all the water

that's coming in towards the towards the beach and it all kind of funnels in one area and goes back out to see it's called a rip current okay and if you try and swim directly into the beach you won't be able to get there because that rip current can be going three knots or four knots

can be strong and you can't swim that fast and so you'll sit there and swim to exhaustion and you'll die so what you do is you swim parallel to the beach and then you'll drift out a little further as you swim parallel but eventually they'll swim out of the rip current then you can swim

into the beach that's what I mean yep there you go there's two ways that life seems to be short to me so one is in the fact that days go by pretty quickly and we seem to get old a lot sooner perhaps than we expect and the other is that tomorrow is not necessarily promised to us and

that things can end pretty quickly how do you think people can remind themselves of this shortness of life we're very distracted at the moment there is always something that can take us away from the present moment and there are things that we're moving toward that are in the future how can people remind themselves of the urgency that life has to it?

I mean you know for me it's real easy because I know that a lot of a lot of my friends that are not here and that's all I need to know and I mean I think about that every day so there's no for me personally there's no there's no lack of urgency when I wake up in the morning to think oh don't worry I got all the time in the world because I know I don't and I'm lucky to be here and I'm gonna try and live in a way that

will at least do justice for my friends that aren't here. Tim Kennedy said that he'd looked back at a photo of maybe the graduating class that he was in or certainly some unit that he was a part of and he looked at it and he realized that he was the only person that was left

from that photo the only one and you know it's one of those things it's kind of like the the I got cancer and I sort of didn't want it but I'm glad that it happened to me because on the other side of it it kind of feels a little bit like the same energy as that that you go well

do I want to lose all of my friends no absolutely not have I been able to like alchemy have I been able to take something from that like the bullying thing in later life right have I been able to turn that transmute that into something that I really value and I suppose that that's

one of the ways as well it is about as good of a forget you leges forget the service forget the nice words it's okay because of what this person did for me while they were alive now that they've passed look at how much more I'm living look at I mean is there any bad attribute to somebody

definitely makes you appreciate the sun sets more we're watching it last night it's very very nice over here it is indeed another thing I've been thinking about with the shortness of life is the sam 34 and it's only been within the last maybe two years or so two to three years

where age has started to actually feel like a thing now obviously it was a it was a new age was a thing and but for most of your twenties what you're doing is you're becoming stronger faster smarter everything continues to get better and then there's a point kind of like at the top of a

roller coaster where the inertia comes in and you feel everything be a bit weightless and you such a well recovery from workouts is taking just a little bit longer than it used to and injuries are taking a little bit more to get past and I mean the hangover thing has been happening since I

was like 24 like that just linearly got worse since I was 24 but there is a point at which you become kind of aware of your own mortality not in a my friends have died way but in a entropy way do you have any advice to men that are getting older and becoming

chronically aware of that yeah lift weights do you do you do go for run stretch out eat good stop drinking pretty straightforward if you don't if you don't use it you're gonna lose it every day that you don't do work you're going backwards and it and it definitely will hurt you

and it'll show up you can't get away with what you got away with when you were 23 you he doesn't work you you have to you have to stay ahead of it I had Nate Zinser Dr. Nate Zinser he's a one of the special forces he was there their mindset coach the psychology coach

and he was telling me I was asking him what what ages is it that you can finish applying for the seals it 28 to 25 it's it's 28 I think it's 28 or 29 and I asked what's the reason for they're being in upper bound I mean there's guys in their 30s that are super fit the guys in

the UFC in the 40s that are super fit they said what it's about what the body can tolerate especially during selection he was telling me the story about one of the climbing rope climbing sections 30 feet high over sand and some 2021 year old kid fell from the top flat on his stomach

and apparently just bounced off the floor and got up and started running you thought actually yeah if if he was 38 that's a that's a very different reaction after you've dropped foot 30 feet on to sand yeah the training is gonna it's gonna destroy destroy kids and so if you're

not ready to recover very quickly it's gonna be a problem and I think you know are there people that could pull it off share there are and there are they there are guys that get waivers that are 32 years old and they're super studs and they make it but if you did if you ran the numbers

which I'm sure the navy ran the numbers and is like oh the I mean quite frankly I just learned this figure the other day people that are younger than 20 have like a 5% chance of making it through of making through basic seal training okay because they just don't have the the maturity and they

might not be strong enough yet and I mean I would say the optimum age is probably like 23 24 you're stronger but I mean I was I went through when I was young I was 19 years old and you know you were pretty light as light compared with now right when you went through I started it

I was 174 when I went through what do you six 162 511 hey okay yep and 185 when I graduated so I gained like 11 pounds going through seal training and then yeah and and which is you know when you're young I mean my body is just you know seeping testosterone you know 19 years old you

working out all day long yeah chicken nuggets yeah chicken nuggets getting after it just all the food you can possibly eat it's it's awesome but it's an abusive training program it's hard on the body it it trashes guys for sure I mean hearing a Goggin stories about his three times through

I mean he got it was not you'd quitting right I mean his mentality was prepared to take him further than his body was twice I mean that must be brutal to think about the fact I often think about this to do with athletes that get injured how unfair it is that you get injured because it's

you are ready to do the thing and you may have done everything perfectly and there's something something outside of your control in your physiology that said no no you don't get to do this yeah the seal training is not fair at all yeah it's not fair at all and there's I'm sure there's

good guys that don't make it because they just physically can't handle it that being said the the the way the program works for the most part if you don't make it it's because you didn't make it like they have guys way more people that ring the bell thing have blown out knees it's it's 80 it's

probably 85 90% that ring out 10% that get some injury that is incurable because they'll let you heal up they let guys stay there for a while to heal up but yeah it's an abusive program say that with the smile in your face are there any other special forces selections that you're aware of that

uh comparable in terms of the difficulty they're all they're all hard they all have their own tests and they are all screening out a bunch of people and I've only been through one and they're all they're all different ways of beating you up I mean you know for instance

Ranger School you don't eat a lot so people lose 20 pounds during Ranger School uh what's that's preparing them for being wilderness isolation in the field yeah um special forces has its own things to push you so everyone's got their own little techniques of getting rid of guys

S.A.S. is a lot of orientering it's a lot of Brecken beacons it's up and down hills heavy bergen packs yep on your own no you don't know how much time you've got they just say do your best you oh you try not to let this catch you you didn't make the time you're out which I mean he didn't know what the time was but you didn't know what the time was but it wasn't fast enough be in seal training you you're not allowed to wear watch so how how fast you have to run as fast as you

can at least for me I had to run as fast as you can seal training you're not allowed to wear a watch not allowed to wear watch you don't know how long anything is going to take you don't know how long you've been swimming for your only choice is to go hard that's that's good right we just want

you to go as hard as you can I did a reality TV show about seven years ago and um on that they removed all of our watches before we went in and all of the clocks of the guys that came into change the batteries on our microphones they changed them all so they didn't tell the right time

the watches of the drivers the cars that we got in and we never found out why that was the case I thought I think it was because they didn't want us to know when we were going to bed and waking up because everyone was excitable and 18 or whatever how long were you in the field for I was

in the show for about a month but I mean I'm what were the what what can I task were the time task that you were that you were executing so unfortunately this isn't as reputable as doing a reality TV show about um forces this is a dating show and dating like dating like a bachelor or

a male female yes scenario yes Jack I'm not equating the two between doing buds and going on love island um but my point is that um I think what they were trying to do was just uh put take the power from the people that were um the subjects to the people that were in control and disorient

the the people that were there now they they're actually it wasn't like a a challenge thing where people were having limited food or doing challenges to stay in and stuff like that it was exclusively about romance but what they'd found was that there was something there must have been something that

they thought there was effective by doing that and um thankfully I just didn't have to I didn't have to swim as much as as you guys did so I came out the other side of that feeling all right I'm glad you made it I did well I mean like I'm here today it was it was difficult um

I spoke to Michael punky Higgs you know him seal commander chief master chief yep I spoke to him and he's doing some stuff with psychedelics at the moment um which I found absolutely fascinating and he very carefully walked me through the um reason that he he felt he needed I

mean he'd had a good into his head I think two or three times separately uh he was really really struggling and um he's doing I think it's in Mexico is his his place where he's doing psychedelic therapy for veterans what's your what's your thoughts on on that uh punky's awesome awesome guy um

I'm glad you said Michael punky Higgs because otherwise I said my guy I would have taken me a minute but yeah punky's an awesome guy uh I I've never tried that stuff and I I've definitely talked to a lot of guys that it's helped out and if something's gonna help guys out

I think it's good to go for people to go try it but I haven't tried it myself and I don't I don't know I don't know too much about it um I've had some friends that have done it uh my friend Dakota Meyer had him on the podcast and he talked about his experiences I've talked to

Tim Ferris a decent amount about it because he's huge into it the moment right investing and yeah and and before I had Dakota on and I knew Dakota and I were gonna talk about it I actually called Tim and like took notes so that I had a better understanding because I don't know I don't know

I don't know enough about it to be able to comment on it for me it's just being on the outside trying to trying to explain or at least share I guess share the story of people that have utilized him and it's been helpful for so I don't know a lot about it was it um was it Dakota that

was talking might have been on Rogan about it's a type of patch some sort of patch or a single time thing that they maybe do on the neck yeah that's that's another thing that's a that's a uh Stella gangly in block that's it's called yeah and that's another thing that people use

sounds absolutely wild it's a single time thing you do have to get it you know periodically you know every six months every year I forget the date is but yes that's another thing that's been very effective for some people so again I'm I'm not in any position to talk about this

stuff with any uh with with any knowledge whatsoever other than hey I've I've had some friends that have done it and they've said it's been useful it's been helpful seals were very publicity shy for a long time and that trend of the the quiet professional was uh pretty strong do you ever regret

being so recognizable or well known I mean I spent my whole life just kind of being very you know unrecognizable and and that there's some there's some very nice things about that and you know uh when I now that I'm now that I'm more

recognizable you know some of those advantages of being unrecognizable are gone but for me the being able to help people out has been worth the the pain and I use that term very obviously worth the worth the the small inconveniences of you know being recognized by by people and

most of the people that recognize me are cool people that say hey man listen your podcast thanks and I say hey man no problem you know appreciate it so it's you know I'm not in some weird scenario I don't have you know most people that listen to the podcast are pretty cool people and

they probably want to meet yeah that I that I want to meet and hang out with and they usually have something positive to say or some insight that they can give me something that I missed something that they could clarify for me so it's all good to know factor really I walked down Broadway

in Nashville with Jordan Peterson on a Friday night last year and that was uh that was a sight to behold that was like that mean that he managed to accumulate a queue of people to see as he walked down the street he was who's what's that is that Jordan Peterson and then he ended up

buying a Stetson hat and doing like the Michael Jackson thing like the walk in an attempt to like get through the crowd um but yeah I just thought I thought it was interesting because you'd you'd spent all of this time and and and again you had this culture in the seals of the the

quite professional and stuff and I was just interested in the price that you know it's kind of like being in service again in a weird way right yeah I mean you know compared with going to war people coming up to you in the street or wanting to take a selfie and stuff like you

know not even in the same universe but my point being that there is still there's things that you have to put up with or do in order to get the message out there and your sense is that it's worth it yeah it's it's it's fine I mean again the amount of feedback that I get from people that are

that have benefited greatly is well worth you know any small inconveniences that I might have in my life it's no factor what do you think it was about your task unit that ended up it caused it to contain so many particularly elite operators when it seems to me like there's been a lot I

mean you know yourself life Chris Kyle it was the trial in there as well no he was not but my point being like it's that's like a fairly illustrious list yeah I mean and I don't struggle in the sea to remember what word you just used to describe the level of operators but I mean we

were kind of normal kind of a normal task unit nothing spectacular we had a we we got put into a combat environment that was a target rich environment and went hard in in in that deployment and you know that's that's kind of how it turned out you know a seal team a seal platoon you're

going to get it's it's a bell curve like any other group and there's some awesome guys in every seal platoon there's a bunch of really good guys in a seal platoon and there's a couple you know it's not so awesome guys in a seal platoon but they're gonna they're gonna do their job too

sometimes and you know there's that's the way it is and you know we that deployment had a lot of visibility on it because it was because there was a very kinetic deployment and you know we also you know just from a from a historical standpoint you know Mark Lee was in was

it was with us and he was the first seal killed in Iraq and Mikey Montsoe was with us and Mikey you know was was awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously and and so those kind of things sort of definitely drew drew the spotlight to what had happened and and that deployment what was Chris

Kyle like in real life just the awesome funny guy that was a good patient sniper and cared about his job and cared about his family and was a you know was was a good damn good sniper that would stay on his gun for a very long time and you know he was also very funny very good-garyous always

doing pranks just just a good good guy like like we're talking about a kind of guy you want to go to war with how did it feel watching that movie you know it's it's it's a Hollywood movie and I I kind of went into it with rudimentary understanding that this movie is not going to be some

documentary depiction of everything that happened yeah they have to take a guy and take his whole life and take multiple deployments and condense that all down in this very short time period they got to take a a very complex combat situation and bear and and distill that down into like good

guy bad guy and and and that's what they did and and I you know also trying to show the the sacrifices that the families make and how hard it is on the families that's was probably the most important part of the story and so it was you know I watched it and I'm kind of as I watched

that kind of understood those things and you know like that was that to me the conversation around the family of service men and service women families is is definitely one that 15 years ago I don't remember thinking about as much and now is one of the things that's at the front of my mind

that when you have somebody that goes on operation and serves it's not just them that pay the price and it's not just them and the support units that are out there and the drivers and the people on the ground and the fixes and the translators and stuff there's a literal army of people back home

as well that have to pay sometimes just as high of a price yeah I'm in some cases higher um you know when you when I'm on deployment I know what's happening I know what is going on I know what the risks are I know what I can do to mitigate those risks my my wife my kids are too young

to understand but my wife she knows what the risks are she and well let me rephrase that she doesn't know what the risks are she doesn't know how we're mitigating risks she doesn't know what it's like on the ground so it's very easy for someone in the family to start you know believing

the worst things that are happening and every you know when you see that there's a casualty and how there's two Marines killed in all on bar province or there's four Marines killed in all on bar province and you know that the vast majority of those casualties are taking place in the

city of Ramadi which is where your husband is that can create some that can create some that can create some drama in your head and that can make that deployment worse for the family at home than it is for the the guy that's on deployment think about whenever you've got a

missing kid and what is it that the pair or missing anybody right when the family of that person are doing the press tour trying to appeal the thing that they also even if it's been five years I just want to know because the open loop of being uncertain about something is literal torture

and yeah I can imagine that by not knowing it's not like you're WhatsApp messaging every couple of hours yeah good just got to Ramadi a bit hot here uh his selfie like that's not that's not the way that it works no so they don't know what's going on and fear of the unknown is a thing and so for the families back home it can be very rid of culture we do ever run for office does that call to you I don't I certainly hope not yeah I don't I don't I don't want to get involved in politics and

you know I don't think it's just it's just a disgusting sort of life and you know my five friends that are involved in politics and it just doesn't seem like that doesn't seem like what I'd want I'd want to do in my life what about running a school obviously you've got the stuff

that you already do with kids yeah you have that that foot in the door Tim has got his thing up in Austin yeah does that call to you yeah and I've I've got people that are you know again Tim and I talked about this and Tim's doing an awesome thing with his school Apigee Cedar Park so

and look at it's downstanding so with the warrior kid thing I've got some some irons in the fire on that right now yep what would you add into or what would be the uh are there any big differences that you think would be made in a school syllabus typical to what you're aware of

at the moment if if you were to be the person that was oh yeah in charge yeah 100% of course changes to this civilian school yeah syllabus oh yeah absolutely what would you change uh basic survival skills right how to start a fire how to put out a fire basic basic trauma medicine

how you do first aid just those kind of things how you change the tire on a car basic plumbing basic electrical like some life skills that are very beneficial working on engines those kind of things and uh those those are things I would add to the curriculum obviously Jiu Jitsu would be in

the curriculum I was going to say if you were to do that I would be so interested if if everybody was if PE I don't know what you call it out here yeah we call it PE if PE was heavily pushed toward learning combat and learning martial arts I would be fascinated to know what happens to bullying

rights and schools yeah oh everybody knows that everybody can go yeah well there's also there's a natural packing order that gets established and it is what it is the thing is I've said this Jiu Jitsu will not only help you from getting bullied it was also prevent you from becoming

you bullied bully because when a kid's doing Jiu Jitsu they realize oh I'm a little bit bigger and I can take this person but there's someone that's bigger and stronger than me and they can take me and so it helps on both both fronts what about um working on movies obviously we've had

cowboy serone jean a carano they're people that have moved across into the movie industry would you be interested in that as a a writer or maybe even as a as a person in front of the lens yeah I mean I've got some some forward motion on both warrior kid right now and on the novel that I

wrote called final spin so the both of those are being are moving forward in the in the movie arena that's pretty cool yeah and those of it's take warrior kid it's it's taken a while to find the right people but that's that's moving forward and same final spin took less I mean

final spin only just came out and it was almost immediately was getting requests for a movie adaptation warrior kid was the same thing but it took a while to find the right people and it's a project that I didn't want to kind of just have hazardly throw out there to the world so yeah both those

are moving forward in the and and they're gonna come how does that feel as someone who didn't grow up with no desire to be a writer throughout seals throughout Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and surfing and stuff like that and then you just appear with a fiction novel and now it's being turned into a

film was how does that feel what does that mean to you I mean I have so many stories in my head that's kind of crazy that's the one that bubble to the surface and there's a bunch more that come up on a daily basis that it just a matter of which ones I'm gonna take the time to put on

the paper and you know I don't know I don't I don't think about that kind of stuff too much um I'm stoked you know it's very cool I'm it's it's cool I like it it's it's it's gonna be cool to watch this thing get made and I'm stoked about it that is a byproduct the fact that you

don't overthink um you don't think too much about the situation itself I think is a byproduct of someone that has a lot of forward momentum I think that when you've just got lots of things that are happening um you buying necessity you've just focused on whatever's next in front of you.

Yeah earlier you were talking about thinking about whether you're gonna be successful or not and oddly enough I don't really I don't really think about that I don't think about how's this book gonna do how's this is it gonna get turned into a movie I don't think about that I just kind

of go and I guess yes I agree with you you're the forward momentum piece I'm kind of moving forward and people that work with me they know that um like on to the next thing all right hey cool that things that things got some trajectory it's going to the right direction cool I'm gonna go on to

the next thing and and keep moving forward I spoke to heaveman a couple of weeks ago and I brought up with him about the fact that um he's got tattoos that very few people have have seen although there are photos on the internet it's one of them in an octopus t-shirt looking like this um have you

got any tattoos right in thinking that you've got one what what is it what does it mean I got a tattoo when I was a kid like you know I was in the hardcore scene and and you know we all were getting tattoos and and so yeah I got a tattoo it's like just a kind of a random design on my back

no real it's kind of half finished and it's kind of dumb but yeah but finish it off I just I don't care not bothered well I guess it is literally behind you yeah yeah it's literally behind me and I think one of my daughter said do you think you should get that thing finished like yeah I'm not

gonna miss I'm not gonna miss three days of jiu jitsu to let a tattoo heal up so that is it's not happening so I know that you're a fan of the Thomas Soul quote where he says there's no solutions on the trade-offs and this is something in a roundabout way that same concept is probably one of

the most meaningful things that I've learned this year what does that quote mean to you or how of you how have you reflected on that well especially from a leadership perspective that's kind of where I talked about it for the first time how the heck did you hear that quote from me that's

I don't know when I've said that I guess I did some podcasts about it but yeah it's it's it's very helpful to people's mindsets I think and that's when I when I talked about that it was primarily to help people see that you're looking for a full-on solution to this problem and

there's probably not a full-on solution that's gonna satisfy every every aspect of this scenario so what you have to do instead is you have to look for what what's the trade-off gonna be I'm gonna win a little bit here I'm gonna lose a little bit there but overall it's gonna move me

in the right direction I think it's a good thing to understand as opposed to going through life thinking that you're gonna find a 100% solution because it's not going to exist so you're gonna have to make trade-offs in life Douglas Murray came on the show and he was talking about this

story from Christopher Hitchens where Hitch told him that in life we have to choose our regrets and what he meant by that was the fact that opportunity cost demands that you're going to have regrets and I'd always thought that regrets were a bug not a feature of life

and it realized that they were baked into the literal fabric of how we exist so you could make the perfect decision and still look back and have regrets about not making the other one simply because of that open loop that we were talking about before you don't know

what the other thing could have been and I was like okay so well that's interesting that regrets are a feature not a bug but what does it mean that you need to choose them okay well given the fact that regrets are baked into the fabric of life when you're making a decision one of the things

that you need to consider is which of these regrets can I live with and which of these regrets can I not live with and that there's no solutions only trade-offs thing speaks to the same energy 100% you know do you own a house yes so when you're the real estate agent told me this years and years ago when you're looking at a house there's gonna be shortfalls there's gonna be problems with the house that you're looking at and whether it's gonna be even if it's the perfect house well that means

gonna cost a ton so that's the trade-off that you're gonna make and so what you have to do is you have to break down like what you just said hey listen I wanted a bigger yard but this one has a huge garage

I'm gonna go with it you just got to figure out those trade-offs there's no solutions you're not gonna get the perfect house until you build one and even when we build one guess what you're gonna look at it when you're done and you're gonna say I should have moved this wall 24 inches to the west

right it'll it'll it'll reach out talk to me about your approach with the long-term plans because I've heard you mentioned that real long-term plans are something that you don't necessarily optimize for you seem to optimize a little bit more for optionality and for kind of a medium-term

thing what's what's you thinking around yeah I don't know what I'm gonna be doing in five years people I would you would you what your five-year plan I have no idea what my five-year plan is because I don't know what opportunities are gonna arise I don't know what things I'm gonna fail at

I don't know what mistakes I'm gonna make so where how am I gonna sit here and tell you where I'm gonna be in five years I can't and if I did I'd probably be shutting off some opportunities that are there because I'm too close minded and focused on some five-year plan so I make iterative decisions

about things I move a little bit in some direction I test I get the feedback from it was a good was it bad should I put more resources toward it or not and then as time goes by I've either moved significantly in that direction or I've realized it's a dead end and I'm gonna move away

it was it was more convenient a year ago when I'd say five years ago I didn't have a podcast I didn't have a book I didn't have any that wasn't didn't have anything really five that was five years ago so my five-year plan if you would have six years ago my five-year plan would have been

like oh I guess I'll be training Getsu and how would be training Getsu and surfing and hanging out with my family working with life probably doing echelon front but maybe a slightly bit bigger maybe not even yeah I mean I don't know yeah we we we didn't jump in and invest some huge amount of

money in Dashlon front no we started hey does anyone want to learn this stuff oh yeah it looks like they do oh yeah looks like a lot of people do oh looks like it's very beneficial to them oh they're telling all their friends at other companies that they should do this stuff so they can

get better and that whole way down the path yes we'll spend more time we'll invest more into it we'll write a book about it cool that made sense so that's what that's what I have to take the the approach with everything what opportunities are gonna knock on my door today what opportunities

have I started that are gonna close tomorrow I don't know so I don't spend I don't want to invest a lot of time and energy trying to predict where I'm gonna be in five years when I don't know I really resonated with that I really like it because especially in the online productivity

world you know you should break down the 25 year plan into five year blocks into one year sprints into quarterly goals or whatever and it's just never resonated with me it's never resonate it doesn't appeal to my nature it doesn't appeal to the way that life is by design unpredictable and you

don't know what skills you're going to acquire what setbacks or advantages are going to come your way and that was you it was you're one of the first people I've heard who's really succinctly put it together as look I don't have and you're someone that if people were to think jokos the kind of guy

with a plan right you don't go into battle without a plan you're well yeah but the entire war is something that requires us to respond as it occurs yeah look at the mistakes we've made a well America is made as a country and war why because we had a long term strategy that didn't make sense

and guess what no one was willing to say hey this long term strategy we've got it's not working we need to make some adjustments and we need to do it now instead nope ignore those numbers ignore the the feedback loop that we're getting just press forward with this strategy that we're on

doesn't doesn't work so I don't want to have you have to go into battle with an idea of where you want to get to and then you as you start moving in that direction you've got to say oh that wasn't what I thought it was going to be we need to make some adjustments that's the disciplining creativity

spectrum coming up again it is indeed looking from the outside is somebody that's black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu the stuff that you're doing with origin bringing manufacturing back to the US writing books books being turned into

screenplays and movies and stuff like that and everything else that you do that from the outside can look like something which is incredibly desirable as a position to get in one thing that I've learned over the last few years especially since spending more time around the people that are

successful and have accolades and stuff is that often this price is that they pay for getting to this stage that they're at that the people who want to be there wouldn't end up paying so what I've come to believe is that a lot of the time people have very very high bars and

challenges that they need to get past I'm interested in what the the price is that you have to pay in order to sort of be joker willing on a daily basis work work a lot of work you know when when you're watching TV or you're you know looking at Instagram or you're you know

going out for dinner on a date and you go to a movie I'm not doing that I'm reading a book I'm getting ready for a podcast I'm writing something I'm preparing for something I'm talking to a client I'm designing something I'm thinking about a new supplement like it's just

just it's it's it's just kind of all the time and so this guy asked me the other day are you working more now than you were when you were in the SEAL teams and the answer is 100 percent yes I'm working harder now you know I'm well I should say I'm working more because I'm working more more

time no no weekends no weekends no evenings really luckily for me I like what I do I was going to say so would you even want that you know would you want to spend an afternoon on the couch watching Netflix is that something after a very long time of driving discipline is that a desire that you

would have any longer sit on the couch and watch Netflix yeah I mean not that's not that's not super I'm not super stoked on that yeah that's my point yeah you've managed to align what you want and what you want to want they're now sitting on top of each other right yeah and I I also don't

do a lot of what I don't want to do and my partner national on front lathe bab and pointed this out to me like a year ago he just said he said you know you've oh you're really good he was doing some stuff that he didn't want to be doing and you know whether it was administrative stuff and you

know he said you don't have got to do this and I'm gonna just say what why are you doing that and he said what do you mean I said get someone else to do that and then you know a week later he's talking he goes you know I was thinking about what you said you're really good at not doing what you

don't want to do and I am good at doing I'm I am good at not doing what I don't want to do I mean administrative stuff stuff like that I don't do any of it I don't do any of it do I have an accountant doesn't account cost me a lot of money yes they do do I worry about it nope not in the

single bit not in the slightest way don't worry about it at all and I don't have to deal with it and my taxes are getting done you know it that's a lot's a crazy amount of work and effort I don't do any of it logistics for my online store do I do I don't do any that I don't do any that I don't

touch that stuff so all the stuff that what I get to do what I like to do the weird thing is it is a lot and and and mo it's it's gonna be it's it's challenging for people to do it's challenging for people to do it's challenging it's challenging you know you know my wife she's like you know I

said well that's not I said you know she'll say like what about this and I'm like I'm not going to do that and she says you're not normal you know and I said okay fair enough she doesn't think I'm just think I'm normal and I think she's probably right I fear she may be right as well yeah

I so what's the principle there that that people could take away is it to try and outsource the things that you don't want to do especially let's say that it's someone that's growing a business or that is beginning to get themselves to the stage where they have the resources to be able to do

this as quickly as possible give away the things that you don't like to do to people who can do them yeah and and there's certain things that only you can do yes do you do those things yes and let other people do things that other people can do and and and look I'm also you know if you

want to get straight business business tactical I tell people all the time you know you you keep things small and you let the demand signal increase and you grow as the demand signal increases and as opposed to walk I'm not I don't jump in and say oh I don't like doing paperwork and I've

got a business that I've had for three months so I'm going to hire someone as a as a CFO to run my accounting right now no I'm doing that stuff I'm doing that stuff until we have enough income to comfortably say yeah we can get someone else to do this now and I can then focus on what I'm

good at so I've done that with all my businesses start small and grow as the demand signals there grow and you know I've done things that didn't didn't work and luckily I didn't invest a bunch of time and effort into them because hey I'm I'm gonna be wrong a lot and so just because I think

something is cool doesn't mean other people are gonna think it's cool I happen to like some random thing and some people might not a lot of people might not like it so I'm not gonna overly invest in something that that people might not want at all thinking about the stuff that you can

afford to outsource and the things that you can't I think a good heuristic is what you've just said there so what are the things that only you can do only you can do your podcast only I can do my podcast precisely only you can write your book etc another one that I learned the other day

from Layla Hormosi is a lot of the time let's say that someone's got a company sales company selling software or IT or whatever one of the first people that they'll bring on is a salesperson and then they'll begin to do operations and she said well hang on that's the thing that brings the money in

that's the thing that gives fuel to the engine which you're hoping will drive everything else so I do think that there's another element that I learned from her which is do not outsource the thing that drives the revenue the thing that drives the revenue must be protected at all costs and if that thing is you and another element that links back to what you just said there if that thing is your motivation how can we protect the motivation well my motivation is waning to do the thing to

write the book to do the podcast to give the speeches whatever because of the amount of administration okay let's lean into that even more there's that's the point of highest leverage for us yeah get that blockage out of the way yeah yeah and I have all kinds of people that do all the stuff

that I'm either a not good at or b don't want to do which is beautiful you know it's a beautiful thing that's decentralized command it's the fourth all combat leadership you know like hey how well what's going on and we have five factories right now at origin USA right where are they

three in Maine two in North Carolina so that's an incredible amount of logistics and and I mean just leadership that's going on inside those and the technical aspect of weaving cloth and sewing and setting up lines for production that's incredible amount of work and effort and knowledge that

I don't have any expertise in whatsoever guess what I have a team that does I have people that are awesome and so that's what's going on ashlam front we have scores of clients and they need help in leadership I can't teach them all guess what I have a whole team of people that has their own

experiences and they're out there every single day teaching clients the the leadership lessons that we know jacco fuel the same thing you were asking me earlier like what goes into making these things oh am I giving strategic guidance about what I want a hundred percent am I taste sampling which by

the way there's a good example of something that didn't work you know the first we made an energy drink the first version of the energy drink was based on my taste buds well my taste buds since I don't drink a lot of sweets the first version that we made was not very sweet at all to me it tasted

like maple syrup practically but we I had to open my mind and get feedback and people are like no actually this doesn't taste good okay well then let's change it we just changed we just changed every single flavor starting now but that took that took trial and error of me saying wait a second

I love the way this tastes but seven out of 10 people would think yeah it's okay three out of 10 people would say this doesn't taste good at all that's that's not that's not a that's not a success you got to have 10 out of 10 people say this freaking taste delicious and look you got

different flavors and maybe nine out of 10 love all the flavors and there's one that oh they don't like this one but I've got to take that feedback and and adjust to what I'm hearing but that's an example of hey we went down this road of this certain flavor and a flavor system that was based

on my taste which is why I I know that I have to open my mind and take other opinions and listen to what other people have to say and now we've got taste that are are delicious and universally delicious and so now we can kind of go hard and getting it out there because before there's a

risk of hey if how many times you're going to get someone to try a drink one time if it tastes like junk they're not getting it again so now we've got taste that are delicious and now people yep try it now we're now we can win on taste which is awesome we're already winning on efficacy and

and and health but you got to we got to win on all fronts so now we can win on taste too well it's coming up next what have you got for the rest of the year that's coming up that you're excited about or interested in probably one of the biggest things is we've got a a hunt line

coming out from origin so we're making a full line of hunting clothing hunting apparel from the base layer all the way out to the outer jacket so that's been a huge undertaking and it's very aggressive it was very aggressive what do you mean trying to get that done in a short period

of time was very aggressive and the reason we're able to do is because everything's in America the reason we're able to do is because we're able to literally make a make a design change and have it 15 minutes later for testing you can't do that when you're working with an overseas

company it's it's impossible it's at a minimum if you're flying it it's going to take three four days four or five days to get back it's got to get in line you know control the line it's it's a travesty but we were able to because we're all manufactured here and the material that we're

uses from here so we don't even have to wait for some material to ship from overseas everything is 100% American made so that was a huge undertaking we're starting to get to that point where I think I'm getting my first set of the kit here in another week and then it'll be going into

production so that's pretty cool you know we have an online training academy so the leadership thing again you know we talked about leadership being a skill just like you can't go to the gym in one time and getting shape or you can't change it to one time and now you can defend yourself

or you can't pick up a guitar one time it's the same thing with leadership you can't just sit through one seminar or read one book and go okay cool I've got I mean imagine if you picked up a book on guitar and you read it and now you thought you were going to be able to play a guitar or

you read a book about basketball and now look you would get the concepts down you would understand what you're going to be working to or toward but it's a legitimate skill that you have to employ in scenarios to get better at and so in order to in order to make that happen and it was again

a little bit of a blessing from covid we had created an online platform for a client that had 157,000 employees worldwide and they wanted us to train all their employees and so I said hold on a minute because that would have basically been the dedication of the entire team at

us on the front to make that happen traveling and so we had created before covid we had created an online training platform and then as that as covid hit we immediately said okay looks like we're doing this stuff virtually and what was beautiful was the entire world was was was made to do virtual

interaction whether it was talking I knew in Easter I had whatever Easter dinner with my parents via Skype call or zoom call or whatever and I said yep this is this is the norm now everyone's going to understand the capability the the benefits of being able to utilize video interaction

because before that before covid it was it was rare I mean how many video calls did you do before covid apart from for the podcast but it was my input from that up until covid video podcasting was seen as a second rate thing to do right don't get me wrong I would much rather sit down but

especially as a fledgling creator coming up and didn't have Joe Rogan money right so I couldn't have a nice studio or fly guest out or do whatever so for me that was how I was competing then everybody had to do yep yep you you want to keep your show going you want to keep publishing

completely flattened the field right right which meant that what are we competing on now oh we're competing on the quality of the conversation we're not competing on how fancy the studio is yep well that's interesting and so has that happened to you and is it happened to every family

in America that suddenly realized they were going to utilize and they understood the technology now because there's a technology barrier so now at echelon front we said okay great now we can now we can train people on a much more regular basis we can offer them so so we made

extremotorship.com which is an online training platform for leadership and for life because if you're so that's not just for corporate that's also people can go do that themselves it's individuals and it's individuals this is the thing that you know part of the thing that people

people need to understand is if you're a human and you interact with other human beings you're in a leadership position it doesn't matter if you're the if you're a front-line worker and you're not in charge of any other people but guess what you're interacting with your peers you're interacting and

you have to lead your boss you have to be able to lead your boss your boss doesn't know what's happening in the field your boss doesn't know what time that concrete should be poured your boss doesn't know what what time those those those those forms need to be set up by it doesn't know that you have to lead your boss in that right direction you have to lead your peers in the right

direction. You have to lead your family in the right direction. You have to, even if you're, you, you, by leading your family, that means putting your ego in check and listening to what your kids have to say. So there's everybody's a leader and once people understand that, there's so much they can get out of actually learning leadership skills. So that's been, that's been pretty cool on the echelon front side. So that's the origin side. That's the echelon front side. The jocco

fuel side. Again, we rearrange these flavors. We've, so that's been huge and the rest of the supplement line is just, it's just making high quality stuff and not cutting corners. And we're, we're, look, in the beginning when you're doing that, it's hard, right? Because you think, well, wouldn't it be just easier if we did this? Wouldn't it be, couldn't we just cut this? Couldn't we use a little less of this, this protein? That's more expensive. It's expensive type of sweetener or whatever. And

so you want to make those cuts early on and we didn't. And, and look, quite frankly, when my name is on the freaking label, I can't, I can't just cut corners. But now people recognize that, they recognize that when they buy something from jocco fuel, it's as good as, it's as good as you can get. It's the best quality stuff that you can get. So that's starting to, starting to take hold. And so that's been, that's been great to see as well.

Jocco willing, ladies and gentlemen, if people want to keep up to date with the stuff that you're doing, where should they go? Jocco.com. Jocco, I appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.