Hey, it's Rachel Cook, your Modern mentor. I'm the founder of Lead Above Noise, where we work with leaders in teams to build capability and confidence to lead through change and to drive their best results while keeping burnout at bay. And we'd love to partner with your team. So shoot me a note at rachel@leadabovenoise.com. Let's pick a chat. Okay, so today's episode is one I'm really excited to drop into your ears. It's a conversation that I had with Linda Cohen, the Kindness Catalyst.
This interview feels so timely for me as I keep talking to leadership teams who seem to be struggling with, well, feeling like kindness at work is missing these days, like people are stressed and cranky, and we're all feeling a little mistrust and disconnection. And as Linda makes so clear, these feelings have very real world consequences on our employee experiences, but also on the results that we deliver.
Linda is a brilliant speaker and educator on the why and how of building kindness into our workplaces. I hope you enjoy our conversation. So, Linda Cohen, the Kindness Catalyst. I am so delighted to have you welcome to the Modern Mentor Podcast.
Thank you so much, Rachel. Happy to see you.
So happy to see you. And I am happy to learn about the work that you're doing regarding kindness in the workplace, because I will tell you, I know I am hearing just a tremendous amount about this in my client work these days. People are feeling this sentiment. I certainly do most of my work here in the us. Uh, we're recording this in early 2025. It's been, it's been kind of crazy times here, and I think people are feeling it. They're feeling burned out, they're feeling overwhelmed.
And I think people are describing to me this experience at work of people just being kind of edgier and crankier and less patient. And just the whole experience of engaging with colleagues is starting to get more challenging for people. And maybe I'd love to start, Linda, with a little bit about what are you hearing about in the workplace these days around kindness? And then we'll get into some of your expertise and advice. I
Think what you're saying is so right, Rachel. And I think the thing I'm hearing over and over again is having to give each other grace and ourselves just because we are holding things outside of the workplace in addition to our workloads that may be, you know, leveling on top of what we're, what we're feeling in our workplaces. And so making sure we are finding ways personally and professionally to lean into anything we need to continue to stay, um, grounded and, and maybe not have
to have difficult conversations every single day. Yeah,
That's totally fair. So Linda, you have been doing this work in the realm of kindness for quite some time now, right? Yeah. Should we say at least a decade? At
Least a decade, yes.
Yeah. Okay. So things have changed a lot over the past 10 years. Tell me a little bit about what things were like in the workplace when you were first getting started and and what were some of the things you were focusing on back then?
Oh, gosh. You're asking me a question to go back a decade. Um, it felt, I do think that while I felt like there was really this important value to discuss kindness, I felt then that it was a little harder to bring that topic to leaders. I'm not sure it was as, as accepted then. And there were certainly less people doing it a decade ago. And now I feel like there is this word, kindness, and what does that mean in the workplace? And what are the characteristics of kindness?
What does that actually look like when I am focusing on that, whether that's patience or resilience or integrity or compassion or composure. You know, a lot of the different things we could break kindness down into and, and why does that matter? And I do feel like I have more leaders now. I mean, I'm happy to say that my business is thriving, you know, at some point if I put myself out of business, then maybe we'll be living in the world that I envision I would like to live in.
But until then, I feel like I'm at least happy that there are leaders and managers and organizations that are happy to begin focusing on this. And now that we're talking about why does kindness matter and it impacts my, my productivity of my employees, their happiness, the bottom line of my organization, when they know all of that, then they, they really want to do more of it.
Okay. So it sounds like today leaders are recognizing that there is an actual business case, an imperative for infusing more kindness into the workplace.
Yeah, 100%. And I think the other great thing for me, just as someone who stepped into this work, kind of without having a roadmap to where this would lead to, there's also more research now. There are more books about it. There are professors, university professors, doctors, all sorts of people talking about the benefits of kindness, uh, professionally and personally.
And so I feel like I have a lot more research and science and data that I can pull on when people push back about why does kindness matter? And I have to tell you, I'll, I'll tell you the answer, 10 years ago, I remember people asking me, who's gonna hire you to talk about that? And I have not had anybody ask me that probably in the last, you know, seven, seven or so years.
Yeah. That resonates. Do you have any particular favorite pieces of research or data that you like to pull on when you're talking to maybe a bit of a cynical leader around why happiness is so important at work?
Ah, you would ask me that. I mean, I'll tell you the piece of research that I like to share, which is not really for the leader. It's really for the person themselves, which is about how kindness and happiness are connected. And the research is from a psychology professor at uc Riverside, and she, Sonya Luba murky, and she studies happiness.
And the final piece of the research is that not only do does our DNA impact our happiness and our living circumstances, but 40% of our internal happiness comes from our intentional actions. Hmm. So that's a piece of research that I did not know when I stepped into this work. And I like sharing that because especially now when I think a lot of people feel overwhelmed, I can't change everything. I feel like there are many things out of my control.
I love that research to remind you there may be things out of your control, but what's not out of your control is how you act or react. So if you are in a situation that is a difficult situation, you have to talk to an employee or something is going on, or a team member, one of the kindest things you could do is have that difficult conversation, give that feedback and know that that person will probably benefit in the long run from that feedback.
So, so your intentional actions can be kind, but they can also be, um, impactful in the work setting.
Nice. So let's, let's follow that thread a little bit because I know difficult conversations, crucial conversations. We give them different labels, they tend to make people uncomfortable, understandably, sometimes they are uncomfortable to have. And yet what I hear you saying is that sometimes having the conversation is the kindest thing we can do. So let's start there. Let's start with a leader or even an individual contributor who has something difficult that they've been sitting on.
They know they need to give somebody a piece of feedback or they need to address a concerning behavior that they've seen. Are there any tips that you can offer around how we can have a difficult conversation in a way that is truthful and designed to help someone change behavior and also be a demonstration of kindness?
Yeah, I mean, I had a leader last week that I actually was talking to about this in senior living. And she had an employee that was failing in, you know, an activity that they had expected him to do. And so she called and her door is always open. She is such a kind leader, she leads with compassion, she sees her employees as whole people. She's one of my favorite leaders to work with.
And she said she called, you know, this employee in and sort of said what she thought was going to happen in this situation so that he would, you know, she would take something off his plate and she could tell by his body language he did not like that. It felt like something was being taken away from him. And so she said, you know, I don't, I, I can tell you're not happy with that. And, uh, you know, what, what's going on? What, what are you thinking about?
And because they had built this relationship of safety, and he clearly knew he wasn't gonna be fired because of this situation, he was able to share with her, well, this is what I want. You know, and they were able to talk about it, uh, together and came up with a solution that was gratifying for both of them.
So I think when you build that trust with your employees as a leader, and you, and you are thoughtful about those difficult conversations, you can get to a point where you're gonna be able to find a solution together. And so I think, you know, trust and honesty and autonomy, letting your people have some of that as a leader, um, will allow you to have those conversations.
And I think, you know, if you practice when it's easy, it's gonna be, it's gonna be better when it gets to be a hard situation. And, and there's already this situation where you've created between the two of you. Um, I think you gotta assume best intent, you know? And if you go into this situation with best intent, this feedback is gonna be helpful to my employee, they're gonna grow because I share this with them. Um, and if it isn't taken well, how can we, how can we rectify that?
I think all those things are really important. And it's not easy. I'm not gonna say it's easy, you know, for leaders, for leaders, for the employee. Um, but again, I think if you're coming from a heartfelt place, um, that's where you gotta start.
Yeah. And I think there were a couple of things that you just said that I wanna pull through. They really resonated for me, kindness doesn't necessarily mean giving somebody everything they want and only what they want. What I heard you describe in that example was that the leader was truthful, they were transparent and honest about the situation. And then what I also heard was they gave the other person space to have a reaction, to have feelings.
And it sounds like in that case, they were able to reach a compromise. The reality, at least in my work, and I'm sure you've seen this as well, sometimes you're not able to compromise. Sometimes as a leader, you are just telling somebody something they aren't going to wanna hear. And kindness doesn't mean shying away from that kindness means being transparent about it and giving them space to just have feelings, have a reaction, and maybe not be defensive about it. Is that a fair summary?
Totally, yeah. And if they do get defensive, you could listen as a kind leader, you could, you know, repeat back to them what they are saying so they hear, heard that they are heard. And you know, the outcome may still not be favorable for the employee. That is a possibility. However, um, you know, if, if it's something where you know, there's gonna be some time you have to work on a behavior, we're gonna have to come back to this.
Hopefully, if it isn't right now that that employee realizes that that leader helped me be a better employee, be a better listener, be a better manager, whatever it is, you know, sometimes those conversations aren't gonna, you're not gonna know the results right now, you're gonna have to wait six months a year or something. And of course, if there isn't a change in behavior, that person may not last in a culture that you are trying to create that is a kinder culture.
You may end up having to let them go and caught your losses because that person isn't the right fit. And if you have one person in an organization who is toxic and bringing in that negativity, that's gonna spread, you know, and you and your other employees are gonna feel it and notice it, and it's not gonna be a good fit in the long term for you. So, absolutely. I don't think manager, I think, you know, I think manager work is really hard.
That is probably one of the hardest places in an organization. And when you do it well, your employees will remember you. ILI gave a talk this week, um, to a leadership team, and I ask sometimes what, you know, what's some way you got recognized? And somebody stood up and she said she got a letter from a manager like 25 years ago, it's still in her office. She still reads it. She still thinks about that manager.
And now that she's managing other people, she also wants to emulate what she learned as a younger person. So I think that's really beautiful.
I love that. So there's something in the power of just being reflective about some of your own experiences and what's worked for you. I loved what you said, Linda, you said practice when it's easy. So then when it gets hard, you'll feel more confident about that. I love that. I wanna call that out and, and sort of ask people to sit with that, because I think a lot of us, we think about difficult conversations, crucial conversations as being kind of these life or death moments.
And we're, we're sweating and our palms are getting sweaty. And now I'm quoting Eminem. But, but I think like finding moments where maybe the stakes are really low and you have a gentle piece of feedback that you wanna give someone, you know, maybe somebody said something in a meeting and you wanna offer them just a little bit of advice on how they could have been more concise or more persuasive.
And it's kind of low stakes, but giving yourself, being conscious about finding these moments where you can practice being honest and kind at the same time, I think that's a really, really useful piece of advice we could all benefit from. Definitely.
And the one thing I'll also say is I've heard leaders say that they will practice outside of that first conversation. Maybe they'll practice the role play with somebody that they trust before they go into the real conversation, because then they've maybe thought through what, what are some ways this could go? And now I have some thoughts about how I can handle this, if it goes in this direction or that direction, I think you, you know, you're gonna get better at that.
And, uh, I like the idea of, like you said, um, practicing when it's l less high stakes for you.
I love that. All right. So we've tackled a little bit around difficult, maybe one-on-one conversations, but I know you just said you talked to leadership teams. I know you work with organizations. You used the word earlier, uh, toxic. And that is certainly something that's been coming up a lot lately. Toxic culture is toxic leadership. And I'd love to talk to you just a little bit about how you approach the topic of kindness at more of an organizational level.
So if leaders in an organization are looking around and recognizing, you know, what we, we are kind of lacking in kindness and trust and patience and in insert your own words and we wanna try to shift our culture of kindness, but that feels a little soft and squishy and kind of up in the clouds. Where do we start? What's the first step that you might advise a leadership team to take?
Yeah, I mean, I think the first step would be to come together and have a conversation around why kindness matters. And I do have a, you know, I have a slide in my slide deck, which is a big elephant, and I put that up if I'm being pushed back about why the leadership team is not gonna think that kindness is important. And then I show all of the articles from Forbes magazine, HBR, you know, SHRM, all of the places that are showing why and how kindness matters.
They just kind of go by really quickly as I'm giving a thought process to why this word kindness. And I think when you say kindness does break down to trust, respect, autonomy, you know, I have over the years thought about the different ways that this idea can manifest. And I think the conversation has to start.
If you have a culture that is not where you want it to be, and you do think that the leadership is what's impacting that, you have to start with the leadership and you have to have a buy-in from them so that they are saying, okay, this is a culture we wanna look at collectively. And then you can, you know, talk to your middle managers, your frontline staff, which is the fun thing that I get to do when I work with an organization that really buys into this. We wanna change a culture.
That's where we usually start, is at the leadership level, and then we bring it throughout the organization. And, you know, there are shifts in retention and reputation and recognition and being able to recruit great talent if you have a, a culture that really is focused on that.
Absolutely. So let's imagine now you've, you've got a leadership team, they're bought in, they've come together and they agree, you know what we do, we need to start to make some changes. What are some of the kind of behavioral shifts or the early actions that you might suggest that leaders experiment with in order to try to shift the culture?
Yeah, I think it's, um, you know, you used some words that I would use in terms of difficult conversations or communication. I would say being transparent, being honest, being, um, you know, things that are gonna be beneficial. I think coming to your team and saying, this is the culture we want, we aren't quite there yet. And maybe you start at a team meeting, an all staff meeting.
Maybe you start with just your direct reports, your middle managers, but you begin to get the buy-in from any of the other people who are going to need to share the changing culture. And then I think you just have to make it top of mind. I mean, I have some really fun ways. I, I work in senior living, um, is one of my big, um, audiences.
And we brought out a bingo, a kindness bingo, which had all the behaviors we were trying to bring out, and we sort of incentivized it and gamified it as a fun way to bring it to, um, to more of the collective. Um, and that has worked really well. Being able to continue to have the conversations regularly, I would say, at team meetings, um, with, you know, whether it's an icebreaker, it's recognition, it's a, a characteristic of kindness who wanna focus on this month.
I have bite-size, kindness, tips that I share with clients. So a lot of different ways to really help begin the conversation. I don't think kindness is, it's not a surprise to people. I think once we start focusing on, on it and talking about it, how it can make a difference, how people can feel differently in a culture that is accessing that.
So it's really just finding the people who are gonna be your leaders and your catalysts and your ambassadors and helping, you know, uh, fuel them to be able to be out there sharing more of it. And there's a lot of research about this now too, in different ways. You know, smiling at someone saying hello, you know, that is so simple. And that's like a hospitality trick.
And now there are like healthcare organizations and lots of other organizations that are using that five 10 way to, to bring just a, a slightly kinder culture to the forefront.
Nice. So saying hello, um, making eye contact. What are some other, um, maybe boxes that you'd see on a kindness bingo card?
Yeah, yeah. Um, saying hello to the person you struggle with was kind of a fun one because I did have, um, a manager tell me that her frontline, her front desk person, you know, was so excited to do the Bingo card and said, I can't do this one. 'cause the person I struggle with is just, I just cannot smile at them. Well, in the end, she decided to start smiling at them and about three days later she came back to the general manager and she said, oh my goodness, something crazy happened.
She's smiling back at me. Like, I think maybe it was me and the realization that we, again, we have control of our actions and our, you know, and our reactions. We don't really control other people out there, but perhaps some of that prickly behavior you're getting from someone else stems from something you're putting out there, you know, so I'm smiling at people. I will tell you the thing that I keep hearing so often is recognize my work.
I mean, especially throughout the last several years of the pandemic when people, their jobs morphed, they were taking on maybe way bigger expectations, job expectations than they had previously to Covid and just acknowledge what I'm doing. You know, notice my work, be specific about what I've done that you appreciate. So a manager can play a huge role if recognition is a big piece of what they do. And also, uh, you know, the other thing is check on me, you know, check on me.
I think it became a big kind of conversation. People are holding a lot right now, whether it is caregiving or external stresses, and I come to my job and I can't leave everything at the door because there are things going on for me outside of my workplace that are really impacting me. So when a manager knows that and is, you know, conscious of that, that can make such a big difference. And it can for fellow team members too.
So I, I actually teach that it's not just the leaders that make a culture, it's employees to each other. It's employees to the customer, and it's the customers back to the employees. So having great ways to get feedback from your clients or your customers and making sure your employees hear that when they get complimented. You know, I always say to start recognition at the beginning of a meeting, don't wait till the end. 'cause I think that sets a tone as well.
And I think that's one of the ways you can be honest and transparent about the behavior. We wanna, we wanna continue to have more on.
That's great. I love that. So if I'm tracking, I've got smile, I've got say hello, I've got, I heard you say ask for feedback. I think that's a really powerful one. Um, check in on me, recognize my work. I think these are all, and I will just note that none of these have to cost a dollar for any company that is saying, well, we don't have, we, we don't have the money to invest in a big giant recognition program. It's not really necessary. Right, right, right.
I would add from, from my experience and leaders that I work with, one of the, one of the biggest acts of kindness that I see is when leaders start with a question instead of a directive. Right. And which is a, which is sort of a passive way of recognizing it's, it's, if I'm the leader, it's my way of saying I value your opinion and your input before I'm telling you what to do.
I think sometimes we tend the collective, we, we tend to think of kindness as niceness and squishiness, but what I hear a lot of what I hear you describing is just signals of respect, um, honoring somebody else's space, their work, their perspective. I think these can be really significant ways to amplify the culture of kindness. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think what you just said is a great addition because I think you have younger generations getting into the workforce. You have people who've come through a pandemic, so their beginning of their maybe careers is very different than it was for the leaders who might be leading them who, whose twenties or thirties were a totally different experience.
And, uh, maybe you have people from different walks of life or different, um, cultures embracing that and asking for feedback and valuing that, wow, you have a different perspective than I do. And, and maybe honoring that. I heard so many incredible stories about companies that had to adapt during the pandemic and that makes an employee feel valued. My, I'm part of something bigger than me, and if I give a suggestion and it's taken, there's a lot to be said about that for an employee.
Um, so I like that addition you had. So,
You know, I hear a lot these days, Linda, from leaders who are saying things like, I get it. I get that retention matters and engagement matters. Sure, sure, sure. But the stakes are high.
I need, I just feel like the pressure is on, our clients are expecting more our customers, our shareholders, and I just, I need more from my team and I, I know I'm supposed to be kind, but I, I'm so focused on results and I'm worried that if I'm too kind, it's gonna diminish how hard people are working or it's gonna soften us. What would you say to a leader who terribly would sound like what I just sounded like? Yeah.
I would, I would really encourage that leader to think about their, their employees and their managers as their customers. Because I think when you love on your managers and your employees, they will give your clients and your customers more than if you are all about productivity.
I really believe that. And I think the companies that are starting to do that, they're seeing that I'm hearing those stories, I'm reading about them, I'm meeting those leaders who are realizing that, you know, loving my employees and I'm using that word love. I know. But if you are loving on your employees and you're treating them the way you want them to treat their employees and your customers, they will, they will.
So I, I think there's a new paradigm happening and if you have a, a a leader who's still pushing back on that, I would, I'd probably send them , I'd probably send them some of those articles that I was mentioning purposefully to have them read about it.
Also, my share a copy of my book because in my book, economy of Kindness, how kindness transforms your bottom line, by the time I wrote that book, I had been doing this work for about eight years with clients and I, I had to put it in there, all these great stories that I had heard firsthand about leaders who lead with kindness and really believe that my team is what I need to nurture, and if I nurture my team, they'll nurture everything else. Yeah.
Do you have any examples that you can share, obviously anonymously, maybe of a client or an organization that you worked with where kindness was low and they implemented some of these recommendations and there was some sort of impact to their business?
Yeah, I mean, you know, one of my clients, I'd say their retention has improved. I think the percentage was 12% less, um, turnover in the time we've worked together. Um, certainly the people who are not able to buy into the philosophy have kind of moved on and there's been a change in how the managers think about their, you know, I just think kindness has become top of mind and we've kept it dripping, you know, top of mind for a couple of years.
And I think that has made a difference for how people manage each other, how they take care of themselves as well. And I talk about that in my work as well as, you know, if you are, in fact, I said this this week at a leadership meeting, and I could see some eyes in the audience going, oh, she's right.
It was like, as a leader, if you have no boundaries around your own self-care, if you, um, work 24 7 and you go on vacation and you have your phone, your employees are gonna think that that's how they have to work too. So I think kindness to self as a leader is a way to show it and be a role model, um, to other, to your employees. And also, you know, if you're struggling, get help, get help and get it publicly so that your team can know that they can too.
I think that's, I've actually, uh, been paying attention. I know we're kind of at the end of our podcast time together, but I have heard some younger employees talking about the role models for mental health that they are finding are the, are different role models than we might have had in a middle aged kind of population.
And so it's good because they're, they're addressing that fact that a lot of people are struggling with mental health right now and they're getting help for it and they're being public
About it. Nice. And what about for an employee? We'll just maybe land here for an employee who isn't necessarily in a leadership role, they aren't necessarily looking to role model things, but maybe they are struggling with feeling unsuccessful or maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome, . How do you encourage people to show kindness to themselves? Any suggestions there?
Yeah, I laugh because the imposter syndrome is something I know you and I have spoken about. Um, and I think, you know, every, every time I have a conversation, imposter syndrome, confidence, I think that, I think that that continues to evolve as you evolve professionally, but I don't think it ever goes away.
So I would encourage an employee, you know, if there are topics that you, um, that you aren't, you know, you don't feel like you're there yet, get a book about them, watch videos about them, find there's so many amazing people out there in the workforce who are embodying probably what you'd want to focus on. And I would say encourage you to find that. And I would be honest with your manager, you know, if you feel like you could have a conversation with your manager about that, do that.
Because I think if your manager realizes I'd like to have professional growth, one of the things Rachel I see that I'm kind of not thrilled about is that I feel like sometimes the professional development happens at the leadership level and it doesn't trickle down down through the whole organization.
And I think that's a lost opportunity because I do think in a lot of organizations you have, you have poten high potential employees who with some professional guidance and professional development and the opportunities to go to conferences or what have you, might really benefit from that.
And, and like I'm thinking again, with this idea that you have younger leaders who have, or younger employees who are starting their work lives with a very different set of circumstances than senior leaders had, it would be really beneficial. And actually, I have one client I'm really excited about. They are actually launching a, a program, um, this year that is going to focus on kind of new grads to get them into their particular work environment.
And they're doing an entire year leadership program for those brand new people. And I know that's gonna be a really successful program and I get to be a part of that. I'm gonna do a kindness, um, set for them, uh, around this idea of leading. And we're gonna talk about imposter syndrome and confidence and some of the ways you can do that. So I think that was a good question. Hope I answered it.
Excellent. Thank you so much. So Linda, as we start to bring this to a close, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you feel like you wanna answer or that you want to just leave people with to reflect on or maybe to experiment with?
Sure. I will leave you with my three universal lessons of kindness. Um, I have been speaking about this now for many years, since I've been in this kindness work now for a long time. The first is that the size of the kindness doesn't necessarily matter, doesn't have to be something huge. And if you wanna practice kindness, practice smiling at someone, letting someone in in traffic, I'm originally from back east, I live out west. I learned how to not honk and let people in in traffic.
Um, but you can do that in the workplace too. Maybe acknowledging and noticing your employees, um, supporting someone. So find small ways that you can do that. The second lesson is the ripple effect. And I encourage people to consider if you hear good news, if you see stories that you are inspired by, share those. Use your social media and any platform you have in the workplace or personally to share good news.
I think there's really a push now that people want to know that kindness is happening, and I promise you it is happening. It's just not what's getting amplified. So that's one way you can begin to ripple out these great stories that are all around us. And then the final thing is just about giving kindness and receiving it. And a lot of people find it very easy to be the givers of kindness, but most people struggle to receive kindness across the board, across the world.
Whatever organization I talk to, people struggle with that. And my suggestion for that is to learn how to receive a compliment. When someone gives you a simple compliment, just say thank you, don't diminish it, just receive it. And that's one, again, kind of a small way you can practice that, um, so that you can receive something bigger if and when you have a medical emergency, health emergency, you know, loss in your life, which will happen if you're having a human life.
Um, but then you'll be able to receive when people wanna give to you at that time. So those are my lessons. That's
A beautiful place to close. Linda, thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you. your contact information in the show notes if anybody wants to reach out and learn more about the amazing work that you do. Thank you so much. And there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Linda Cohen, the Kindness Catalyst. You can learn more about Linda and her programs@lindacohenconsulting.com. If you enjoyed this or any previous episode, it would be so kind of you to leave a rating or review in your podcast app for the show.
And if you'd like to connect one-on-one, even just to hit me with a question, reach out anytime at rachel@leadabovenoise.com. Join me next week for another great episode. Until then, visit my website@leadabovenoise.com. If your workplace could use an activation boost, a bootcamp, a keynote, a pulse check, you choose, you can follow Modern Mentor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Thanks so much for listening and have a successful week.
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