Construction Marketing | How to Turn Projects into Engaging Content | Douglas Duvall

I think that misconception comes from having a bad employer at some point that was a small business or family run business or something, and they saw it with their own eyes, like the owner taking advantage or price gouging or whatever, and they just kind of forced that model on everybody who has their own business, but anybody that's had their own business, or been a freelancer, kind of done their own thing. Knows how kind of full of shit that is.

Guys, we got a special one today. The guys, who's quietly shaping how the building industry shows up online is finally stepping out from behind the camera. Doug Duvall, co founder, motif media. It's the reason why the monocraction podcast looks the way it does, sounds the way it does, and honestly exists the way it does. He's built a media company that helps builders tell better stories, and he's been riding

shotgun with us since the beginning. Doug got roots in the trades a deep understanding of branding and a No BS approach to content that has helped dozens of builders elevate how they show up. And Tyler's been dying to ask a question that he got from his good friend, Dom, Mm, hmm. We had to dig into it some, so we're gonna let that happen. The question is not, how? Why does it take so long to do video edits? We'll just start off with

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Last thing I want to mention here, Nick and I, the modern craftsman team, are excited to announce a new monthly workshop series that we will be holding on Zoom. So each month, we are going to select the topic, a worksheet or a form from one of our online courses, and dive deeply into it with you. So we're going to provide you with that resource and the workshop

completely free. All you have to do is sign up for the newsletter at modern craftsman.co the goal here for us is to expand our content offerings create a more personalized experience for all of our loyal followers. For example, we recently gave away a business scaling worksheet to our mailing list, which outlines a path, goals, growth strategy for residential construction businesses of any size. So in the live workshop, we talked our way through the worksheet, step by step, and answered any

questions that the attendees have. So if you want to be a part of this journey, don't miss out. Sign up for the newsletter to get access to these free monthly workshops. Once you're signed up, you'll just need to pre register for each session, and we hope to see you at the next one. Tyler, I don't think I've ever seen you in a blue shirt, dude? I know, like, what the f ever since the incident? Yeah, I have blue eyes, so when I wear blue, it usually, like, makes my

eyes super blue. So I always when I wear blue, people comment about it, but I never really wear blue. That'd be my brand. You were feeling down and fishing for compliments. Yeah, exactly I knew Rachel would be getting all the attention today with her birthday. So I was like, screw this. No, I like, normally, I'm not gonna lie. Most days, even though I've been working from home a lot, I still have work stuff to do where I'm still working in some sense. So I

typically just put on clothes that can get super crappy. But today, being Rachel's birthday and working from home and then podcasting, I was like, I'm not going to do anything. Like, I'll tell myself, I'm not going to do anything work related, and then I'll get like, 30 minutes, and I'll be like, I'll go change the oil on my dirt bike, and then I'll just trash my clothes. So I knew today I was no chance of doing anything work related, so I don't have on a work shirt. Nice. Yeah, the latte

looks good. What is that? So I don't know. Rachel went to get a facial. You coffee on her birthday? Well, she went to yoga. She took the day off, then she went to yoga, and then she just went and got a facial, and she stopped and grabbed coffee afterwards. And I guess they don't have black coffee, so I have this, like creamy coffee. We'll see how this goes. Have black coffee. Wait what? I don't know. That's how you get coffee. That's what I go to black first. But that's going to jug pre made. I

don't know what the deal is. It's 100% what it is. I couldn't say any What am I gonna say? Argue with her? No, I'm not. I'm just I am genuine, like, there's genuine curiosity in my mind right now. Like, yeah, I don't know. Do you know what Mary loses? Tyler, no, it's like a franchise. Even they have they even they have black they have black coffee. But I, whenever a friend of mine's in

town, like Mike scarmolina. We go there and we get this ice cappuccino thing, and it really took the mystique out of it, because it's really good. It's pre made, like a gallon jug. Oh, really, yeah. So I'm like, Oh man, that really takes the wind

out of myself. That's probably what it is to when Meg and I started dating, we used to go there and we get the girls go cookie, which would be, like, it was straight up milkshake, but you we would order it, I forget, like, without whipped cream and without sugar or something like that, because it's just like an insane calorie thing. But speaking of which, I'm trying to think of, what drink someone posted this yesterday. It's like this Oreo drink that just came out.

They used to make all the chocolate milks. Like Nestle made a bunch of those chocolate milks that were all different plate like cookies and cream flavors and crap like that. It's like the consistency of canola oil, yeah. Or they they wanted to make where you can get, like, milkshakes, kind of pre made milkshakes that are super weird as well. They have them at the convenience stores. That's like, where I draw the line, yeah. I mean, I'm just not. I'm not, I'm not gonna eat that fuck on

there. I gotta find this drink because someone posted it yesterday, and it was, there's 2500 calories in it. Yeah, I believe it. And it's like, Oreo milkshake, and someone, it was, like someone was commenting about being a oh, here it is. I think a lot of those drinks that people get, like the iced coffees or frozen coffees, frozen drinks and stuff like that. It's based you're, I mean, you're just eating a milkshake that tastes like coffee, well, and that. And, yeah, I mean, oh,

here it is. You guys remember, does Duncan still have culadas? Culas? Yes. I love, sure. Love dude, yeah, when I was little, those things were so good down the shore in the summer, like, I'm gonna go to coffee culata, so good. I haven't had one of them, and it's been a minute that's hilarious. Dunk a chino. They come up with some pretty the coffee names. They were delicious. Though it's so weird, like all of these photos, I can't It's like they're

intentionally blurred out. Oh, here we go. Calories, 2600 calories. The thing is that 263 grams of sugar, you don't need to eat anything else for the rest of the day, bro. Like 135 grams of fat. That's just efficiency. 330 grams of carbohydrate. Who makes it? Baskin Robbins, Oh, yeah. Well, of course, it's got 38 grams of protein in it. It's not bad. Like, I mean, it's not, but not at 20. Like, not intentionally, I don't want to go down this health rabbit hole.

But, like, that's like, going back to your comment, it's like, oh, I don't know why I can't lose weight. I don't know why I'm like, you know? It's like, well, your coffee literally has 900 calories in Yeah, you're starting one day off. I forget who was someone, someone on Instagram posted their coffee order one day, and it was just like, you know, picked up my iced coffee and I zoomed in on the label, and it was just like, atrocious. So I put it into chat, GPT. I was like, how many

calories are in this? And it was 900 calories. Yeah, it's not bad. I'm like, compared to my like, I like cold, like, black is zero to 20 calories. I don't know Nick long enough to know his original Coffee order at Dunkin Donuts. What was my original Coffee order? I want to believe, I want to say is eight and eight. Well, eight and eight. What from eight creams, eight sugars in college. Oh, absolutely not Nick you used to get.

I want to know it was a French vanilla. Extra Extra is my, like, high school order, but I don't know, maybe similar, but is extra extra eight and eight? No, it's probably, I don't know the numbers, but it was definitely your order in college is definitely heavy on the cream. Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. It was definitely extra cream, extra sugar. You did. I will give you credit one day you just started getting it black. So I know from there. I know when that was so rich jurati,

who was it? Might listen to this podcast. He's a builder down in, uh, Long Island. And he was in my, he was in my, my, my class, Richie, and we were doing this project for Skills USA that we were going to Las Vegas for. And he went out, and we were like, it was we would work crazy, long hours, like deep into the night to get this thing done. And he was like, hey, I'll go grab coffees. And he came back, and I was like, did you grab any cream

or sugar? He goes, What? No, and everyone's just drinking black coffee. And I was like, All right, no time. No, there's no better time to learn to like black coffee. And that was it. I fucking never went back to cream and sugar. I started so funny that you brought that up. I was thinking about that the other day because I think Marley asked me. She was like, what like, why do you why don't you have anything in your coffee? Moms

taste so much better. I was like, oh yeah. I gave it up in college when I started making coffee at home and had a mug, like a to go mug, I stopped putting cream and sugar in it, because it'd be so gross by the time you got, like, you didn't have anywhere to wash it at work, and you'd get home and it'd just be so nasty and

funk. I could still recall one of the first coffee mugs that I got, like, when I started working, and it was, it would be so gross in the threads of that thing from just cream and sugar sitting in there in the heat of summer. I think I was still drinking at that point, and it was like, No, thanks, I'm good. Let's just go to black coffee at this point, watching the cream curdle. Yeah, I just, I just looked it up by extra, uh, standard coffee has four cream, four sugar, so an

extra extra would be five and five. I didn't mean to put eight and eight on you. No, no. I just, I like, that's just such a specific detail I wanted, I wanted to know that was definitely a thing. Though, back in the day, is the numbers eight and eight, four and four. That's funny. I don't, I don't remember that thing. I think maybe I heard extra extra for people have, like, Sweet and Low, like, I someone recently got me a coffee, and it was just, it

was, like a regular, like, cream and sugar. And I was like, Yeah, I can't do that. So I for. Got Doug, you were coming on today, but it's actually I feel like perfect. So I want to have a quick conversation based on a comment that somebody made to me, and it's one of my good friends. You have met him. Dom, Dom, he's a dude. Dom Rinaldi, sounds like he should be from Long Island too, but jersey, sure, yeah, so we were having a conversation

just cost of living. He, you know, he's he's younger, he's trying to buy a house, he's engaged, and it's just overwhelming how expensive everything is. And he didn't mean anything by it. But let me, let me pull up essentially what

the what the text was, I have a couple of things open here. So he basically said, essentially that, like as a boss, you guys are lucky because you can just give yourself or adjust your raises, give your adjust your wages, give yourself a raise, as with inflation, and as the cost of living goes up, we're so lucky, right? And I'm like, but what if everyone thinks about it that way? Like, if they just think, Oh yeah, well, the price goes up, so you can just adjust your wages, and it it got me

thinking, like, at face value, that makes perfect sense. And I think that if I weren't in my position, I would probably say that as well. But like, how do you adjust for that? How do you accommodate that? And like, how is that a misconception within our industry? And then I also, a while back, something that I developed that I never put out. It's like I priced out a repaint for a job, and I broke out all the cost as if I was going to

hire an employee to do that. And I think maybe I'll screen share

that with you guys and dive into that. But it's it makes sense for Doug as well, because Doug obviously owns his business, and like the challenges of hiring employees, and how difficult it is to actually just raise your price, because we all say that, and how typically we don't raise our price, we just cut our profit somewhere, for Sure, yeah, I think, I think that comes from, I think that misconception comes from having a bad employer at some point

that was a small business or family run business or something, and they saw it with their own eyes, like the owner taking advantage, or price gouging or whatever, and they just kind of force that model on everybody who has their own business, but anybody that's had their own business or been a freelancer kind of done their own thing, knows how kind of full of shit that is, especially if you're doing things above board and to the letter of the law, Like we don't give each

other, we don't give ourselves raises. I, I, since motif started, I haven't given myself a raise. Well, yeah. And like, I'm dude, I'm looking at like numbers post COVID, where things went crazy. Everyone's like, raise your prices. And I'm like, but did I really raise my prices, or did I just kind of account for things. Yeah, and I we actually have gone through the process of raising our rates quite a bit from what they were, and that's just to

kind of get to median. I mean, we were undercutting ourselves pretty dramatically, and we have raised our rates. And it's, it's substantial, it's a lot of money, but it costs a lot of money to media. I, you know, at the end of the day, and we're, I'd say we're probably in the middle of the road, and we're putting out a higher quality product than most people in our price bracket. So then, as a as an owner of a business, who would you say

typically eats that? Because I think that with most businesses that are competitive in nature or competitive industry, that it's this, like there's constantly tension between raising your prices, remaining competitive, and also just pacing in inflation. So like, where, where does that and not? I'm not even saying, right, you bid a job and then you don't have an escalation clause. But just like in our industry, from

my perspective, yeah, everything becomes more expensive. But I can't just say, hey, my insurance went up 30% I'm going to add that to it, because there's a lot of people who aren't or they're hungry or they're needing work, and if I just say I'm going to raise my price with every single escalation or inflation within the market, I'm going to price myself out of work, for sure,

generally speaking, we I set a date like. If we know we have to raise prices, like it would be the next year, so like, let's say we're in May, right? The next time I'd say we raise prices would be January, oh, six, and it might only be to new clients or something like that, and you marked it that, that your prices will be raised. I would, I would to people that the prices were going to be raised. I would notify them well in advance if they want to go

elsewhere. Yeah, and, I mean, I did that with a podcast we lost. I told him it was actually similar time of year. I'm like, in September. I didn't even, I didn't go to January because we really couldn't. I had to by September. I'm like, Hey, this is what the prize is going to be. And you know, when we got to August? He's like, Yeah, I understand. I'm going to go with so and so, which is fine, but that's, that's the nature of it.

Do you think, Nick, that there's, like, a misconception as to the opportunity to simply pass that that fee or that increase in cost on to clients. What do you mean a opportunity, like a missed opportunity? No. Do you think there's a misconception about that bait? Like, essentially, a lot of people think, oh, yeah, it doesn't matter. Prices go up. The customer's paying for it. It's not my money. I don't

know. I guess what I'm kind of stuck on is, you know, something I read recently about, specifically pricing services and how, you know, if you're Doug, like you're explaining, like being in the middle of the pack and doing a higher quality product. Where I go is, does it make sense to just double your price and then have 50% of your customers go away because you're then you're doing half the amount of work and making the

same exact amount of money? Sure, and obviously that's easier said than done, but it's just something that's which

is what we did, right? And you could, but you could, like, that's, and I think that's the, the interesting thing, but Tyler, to your question, and, or even just going back to Dom's point, I think, you know, I think a lot of business owners have this conversation with employees or other or people that are our employees versus an employer, and they have this like, you know, general sense, it's like, oh, it's your business. You can make as much

money as you want. Sure I could. But the reality of the situation is, I, you know, most of us pour everything back into the business, and we take just as much, just enough money out of the business to support our family and our well being. And it's, and I think it's rare that we're just like, we're constantly going up and capturing more of, you know, more profit just for the sake of our own personal well being.

Well, I also like, I think that the mentality is for a lot of people, that as a contractor, especially as somebody in the cost plus world, or having an escalation clause, that that's a Get Out of Jail Free card, and you are basically you have immunity to having to eat any of those costs, like you are completely isolated and protected when the cost of materials or the cost of insurance goes up, because contractually, you are not obligated to maintain those

prices like you're protected. And while that works on paper, and while that's amazing to kind of dig your heels in and say, Well, this is what the contract says as humans, as business owners, as people pleasers. It's not that simple. Like often times when prices go up, or insurances go up, overheads go up, cost of materials go up, we end up taking a hit, or we have to put a ton of equity into value engineering that project with no real return in order to get it back on budget.

I got you. I misunderstood what your your your point earlier? Yeah. I mean, I think to what you're saying is that there is the emotional aspect of it, right, like you're, yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people just think that as an owner of a business, that regardless of what happens within the industry or with the market or or the financial world, that you're protected and You absolve yourself of any of those

liabilities because it doesn't affect your salary, right? You could always just compensate for it, and I feel that that's probably the furthest thing from the truth. And I would argue that it's probably easier for most everyone else to get a raise before the owner of that business does that. I. I mean, my my grandparents owned a business for 71 years before they retired, and they didn't pay themselves until the last six or eight years. So they just paid for themselves to live.

Yeah, yeah. They took whatever was left at the end of the year, and they didn't pay themselves. You know, I, I come from a family of, you know, business owners, and there's a farming business, so it wasn't, they didn't own a fucking Chevy dealership or something. And that's not a shot at dealership, people. But I feel like that's, that's a low hanging fruit. It's it's hard, it's a hard life to own a business. And like I said, I just feel like that misconception comes from working

for bad employers. Because I think we take it on the business owners, take it on the chin. I think that's what you're coming at, right? Tyler, yeah, at the end of the day we we take the pound of flesh, yeah, I think that it's, it's, it's probably further from the truth than closer to the truth. And I think when things don't go according to plan, and when things aren't on budget, and when there is inflation, that typically, the emotional side of

it comes into play, and we are eating a lot at that point. And I don't think it's as easy as like. I think for like, my the cat, one of the cabinet companies in ideal for will send out official emails that were going up this percentage. It's a production line style of business. They're buying materials in bulk, like they have enough data, and they're doing the same thing over and over again, where it's very easy

to capture the rising costs of work of their business. And that I do believe, when you're that transparent and your business is that linear, that yeah, you can raise your prices. I don't know if that's directly reflecting to what the owners are making. I think it's probably just covering their cost and not looking to be greedy with it. But I think with our businesses not being quite as linear, that it's so much harder, and we don't realize until it's already past the point, and then we're

just trying to make it work. I think that there's, like, a misconception of profitability and the realistically, as as the cost of living goes up and everything else gets more expensive. Do you feel that your clients are just like, hey, construction's more expensive now we're going to pay more. Or are they going to say, like, hey, let's find a way to save some money on this renovation, because everything else is more

expensive. Like, to me, it's the latter. Yeah, the last three client potential client meetings I've had, excluding the new clients, I should say, all three of the conversations. When we got to the budget question, I'm looking to spend as little as possible. Yeah, if AI could do it, I'd have ai do it, but it's not there yet, so I'm looking to spend as little as possible. And why? Like, that doesn't have anything that's because of everything else in life, not because of creating media. And

like, I feel that it's the same for us, right? Everything else is more expensive. So they go to here and they try and yeah, they try and navigate here, or try and haggle the prices or the execution or the contract here, because there's plenty of people who are willing to sharpen their pencil and save them some money like it seems as though it's a world which they can negotiate,

where it's not a, you know, it's not a dealership. It's not, you know, they're not going into shop, right, and asking them what they can spend less money on to it just seems as though, when things get more expensive everywhere else that it's harder to remain competitive, because people can't just say, hey, my insurance went up 20% I'm going to put 20% on top of what I did last year, because people are going to be like, No, I'm not paying that. Right?

I mean, I think it's also like the the landscape around what's negotiable. It's like, you go into a car dealership, you know you're going to negotiate pricing. You're building a house, you know, you're going to negotiate terms on contract terms and pricing. You don't go into a grocery store thinking that you can negotiate that. Yeah, you know, I think that, like it's framed around that. And I think that's a big reason why, you know, I want to productize what we're doing as a

builder, it's what we're doing, 45 wood, oak. It's like, you know, that's not going to be a negotiation when it come, you know, I say it's easier said than done, but like, I don't plan, nor want to negotiate the price of that project, you know, like you're not, you know, I mean, I've never bought a Ferrari, but I'm not. I can't imagine you're. Negotiating the cost of a Ferrari. It's no, like you're being invited to purchase a Ferrari. You know that this is the cost. Yeah, you're

not priced out. Like, I called the Ferrari dealership down the street. It's like, No, you didn't you also, you also can't buy a Ferrari until you own a used one. Like there's access, like you have to act like have granted access to it. You know, Doug, I, when you were talking about that, I was thinking about, actually, Troy, who did the renderings that are behind you, and his, his, his marketplace, he's a rendering company, and, you know, I've actually thought about that a

lot. It's like, you know, what's, I wonder what his thoughts are on AI and because he's, you know, the stuff that's behind you, the 45 white oak project was rendered. That's all like, visual art, artistry, yeah, that's, like, that's weeks of hand work, like they're, they're making that stuff. I don't think it really affects what he does. I'll let you finish your thought. But that would, like, I would argue that there's a reason for

that. And I think whatever, you know, it would be this, like, I, I think you, you and him should talk, because it would be interesting to see if there's parallel behind what motif does and what he does, in terms of, you know, there's there's service, and then there's product. And right now it's like, you know, the guys that are looking to do as little as possible, you know, are looking for a service, right? They're

not looking for a product or a result. They're just, hey, you know, I want video editing, and I want to pay as little as possible, yeah. But if it's like, hey, I'll, we'll create a feature film that's gonna win awards or get you clients or whatever the case is. It's like, yeah, that's that. That's completely different. Yeah. I like that idea that the AI thing is, like, Gary V said it the best way. It's like, we can't, you can't stick your head

in the sand and pretend it's going to go away. I think you have to pay attention to what's going on and how it's being used. But I'm not particularly worried about what we do, because I just don't think it it's come close to doing what we're doing right now, and probably the same for dark studio, where you can't put in any prompt currently and get these renderings. But even when it does get to that point, like, someone needs to know how to prompt it, yeah, oh, yeah, right, it's gonna create

new job. It's just, it's just a tool, like, it's a tool to get to, you know that the the result, yeah, and you know, whether, like, you know, it's the same thing for us. You know, there's going to be AI and robots that are replacing the labor. I just saw the yesterday. I I want to say, I think I might be misspeaking. I don't know what company was, but they build

a robot for roofing. I saw that. Did you see it? It's like, and it rolls across the roof, and it picks up a architectural shingle, drops it down, nails it, grabs another one, and moves across the roof. And it's big and it's bulky, but it does the job. And it's like, oh, but it's slow. It's like, Yeah, but there's literally no one around, yeah, it's just up there. Like,

it just, like you said it on the roof, and it just does it. I mean, the reason why people are version one, the reason why people are doing all of that again is to create efficiencies or remain competitive or increase their margins like nobody's doing it

for any other reason than that. It's it's all of these other factors that are driving those decisions in the first place, because you have to do something to be able to put more work in place without necessarily just growing a business or saying, Hey, I'm going to do 2x the revenue, like you either need to increase your margins, create profitability. I think that people are being squeezed, and they're looking for other opportunities to make money at a less of a liability, a lesser of

risk and a less of an overhead cost. And, like, I think of it, when's the last time you guys adjusted your own personal rate to what you're making? Like, for me, it's a little bit different, because I'm making I'm making money, and it's a direct correlation to the jobs. But like, I know the last time I raised my rates, and it wasn't, I wasn't like, hey, I need to

make more money. It was more so just coming to the realization that I wasn't capturing time or costs associated with my business, it wasn't, it wasn't from a financial perspective of, hey, I need more as much as I'm not running a viable business right now. So when's the last time you guys looked at your numbers and you're like, I personally need to change my rate. And was that to make more money or just keep your head above water? It was a year ago to keep our head above water. Water,

yeah, yeah. I think for me, I feel like it's, you know, I'm constantly looking at that. I feel that's once a month, I feel like I sit down at my desk and I have all these levers in front of me. I'm like, All right, which one do I need to pull and which, like, where do I need to, kind of, you know, focus my energy on? And that's, you know, and that's a big reason we've talked about that a lot, you know, just being overburdened

with stuff and and having too many irons in the fire. But to answer your question, I think it's something that anyone that's that's self employed, should be looking at constantly, yeah. I mean, it's the same thing, like, you know, it's the same thing we talk about in all the scaling conversations we had, and even, you know, in the core structure, it's like, if you don't know where you're trying to go, it's really hard to to get there. Yeah, like, you know you gotta, you gotta set,

you gotta set some sort of goal. It's like, All right, what's, what is the goal here am I trying to, you know, and work backwards from what the personal goal is. It's like, you know, oh, I want to make 100 grand a year. It's like, okay, well, what's that based on? Like, is 100 grand a year going to allow

you to survive? Is it surviving in your current condition? Is it putting money away for to buy a house like and and taking, taking the time to actually understand that is something that I, the majority of us, and people just don't do. And I also think that, like that number or a cost of living increase to your salary, or looking to increase your margins as a business owner, it all has to be validated, and has to be

validated by the market and by your clients. And like, I can't just say, you know, I'm gonna charge 30% more per hourly rate or increase my margin or my markup without validating that, and a lot of times, like, you're gonna reach a ceiling, and in order to make more money, you have to focus on profitability rather than top line revenue, right? Where it's like, well, I can't like, necessarily put more work into place, because it's costing me more. So how can we create efficiencies within our

business? And I think that that's the mindset that employees should have as well, where it's like, yeah, the cost of living has gone up, but you can't just expect a raise because of inflation, because of the cost of living. Like, what can you bring to the table to create efficiencies within that business that they don't have to put more work in place and

increase top line revenue in order to pay you more? Like, for me, that's that's the same way that I look at it from a business mentality where it's like, well, what can we do to create a higher profitability, rather than just saying, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna increase our sales by 25% to offset this, like you have to validate why you're raising those numbers, and you can't just Say, I'm just going to raise it for the sake of raising it, or because, you know, this

one up or that one up, even if that's the case, and that's the way it should be, oftentimes, you can't justify that within most markets. And I think, I think that that's tough. So I A while back, I was actually going to put this on the paint course that we made, but I I started pricing out a job, just like a pretty simple paint job, where it's a repaint, where, you know, people will go in and do them for like, seven, 800 bucks, or even less 500 bucks. And I'm like, I don't get how people

could ever make money on that. And it's like, yeah, you can make money painting, but it's really hard to make money as a painting company for somebody who's not doing it scale. And this, this document somewhat explains that I'm going to share my screen with you guys, and then we can, we can dig into this together, but I'm sure that it's probably similar for all of you guys. Like, dude, look at that. Damn I'm good pro. You guys see that? Yep, all right,

so nobody else can see this. Doug might be able to pull some of this. But the again, the goal here is just to somewhat explain this, and it's not super in depth, but I want it to be relatively simple to understand. I think that this somewhat should articulate why it's such a struggle to raise prices or make higher margins on projects when you're trying to remain competitive. So I'm explaining to people how to price a job or estimating materials, estimating labor, all that stuff. We don't

have to get into that. But then again, this is like, where people are going to want to spend 700 800 bucks on repainting a room. And I'm like, I don't see how people could do that for less than 1500 bucks. So I have material lists for 150 square foot room are going to. Be around $300 and then you have consumables and other materials that I added up, and we're gonna say that's gonna be around $200 so you're gonna have $500 in

material costs, and then your labor, right? So for me, I can make money if I'm painting a space by myself, as soon as I hire an employee to do it, I realize that I have to scale that labor and do a lot of paint jobs. And the reason for that, let me break this out. That's bigger picture, all right. So

say I have an employee who is a painter, right? He can paint a room, and I'm going to pay him or her $25 an hour, and I have a 60% burden that I'm putting on top of them so that that's going to cover the cost of that employee, which is a relatively low burden, but that $25 an hour is costing me $40 an hour just to put that person on the job that's not making any money on them, and then say, I want to make 25% on that employee. That $40 is going to go up to $50 an hour, so I'm profiting $10 an

hour from that employee. So you're say that this this job takes that single guy or girl 19 hours to paint that room, which is going to be two and a half work days between prep, setup, breakdown, cleaning. You're at $950 that I'm charging for that,

plus the $300 in paint material, plus the $200 in consumables. So you're at 1400 50, $1,500 I'm making $190 on that labor for profit, so on a $1,500 job that I'm putting somebody on that job for two and a half days at a 25% markup on that, I'm making $190 and when you consider that and how much work you'd actually have to put into place. I think that it's it's easier to understand the liability, the risk and the difficulty that people have scaling their businesses. Because right say, I

want to put three people on jobs. How much more work do I have to line up? How does my overhead change? I'm not necessarily going to just make $190 on each of them. As I put more work in place, my overhead is going to go up. So that $190 and that that 25% margins actually probably going to drop down. So how many dollars in sales do I have to put in place and generate in a year to be able to run a profitable painting company where I'm not capitalizing on my own labor,

and it winds up being a lot. And I think that that's probably indicative of your business, Doug, and of your business Nick, I think certain trades pay a little bit more money. But at the end of the day, if I'm banking on making $190 on two and a half days worth of work on an employee. What if that job goes three hours over budget? What if he paints it the wrong color? What if he spills something like there goes your

profit, there goes all of the work that you put in place. And I think when, when people start understanding that, it sheds a very different light on things. And this is where then it becomes, I need, I need to take on more work, more projects, because then your your overhead to the business is diluted across more revenue coming in,

yeah, or I gotta raise it. It's got to be $2,000 a room. And at that point, who's gonna pay $2,000 a room to send an employee and bear the overhead of that paint company where there's an owner operator who will go and paint that space for 500 bucks, because they're making $400 a day, and that's good for them, right? And

this is, this comes back to the whole argument. It's like, well, you can't sell like, you can't sell it as I can paint the room, because two people can paint the room for, you know, 100% less, or 100% double the cost, right? 100% double the cost, yeah, and you know, then it's a matter of like, okay, well, now going back to something we've preached from the very beginning, it's like, well, you have to, you have to sell value. So I guess I'll flip

that back to you, Tyler. Like, all right, you're going to be double the price of the owner operator. What's the, you know, how are you going to a client and selling the value on spending double to me. I mean, it comes, like, it's pretty simple, because I'm going to go in and I'm going to basically be fully transparent with all the time that's going into this job and the level of detail that we're executing to to be able to capture as many of

those hours as possible. But at the end of the day with work like this, there's just a cap as to what people are willing to pay for most. Markets where it's just like, you know, is somebody going to pay me three grand to repaint their room, or are they going to go and run to depot themselves and grab some bear paint and realize it's $40 a gallon, I could paint this whole space for 150 bucks over the weekend. And not that that's who you're competing against, but if you price yourself so far out,

you're not going to get the work. So that's where I think it comes into like, how can we create efficiencies within our system? Yeah, the price of paints gone up. Yeah, the price of labor has gone up, but there's still a cap to what you

can charge for this stuff. And you can't just say, You know what, I'm going to add it on top and I'm going to charge more, because given the competitive nature of the world, you still, even if you try as hard as you can to differentiate yourself and create that value proposition, you're still

competing with everyone else in that space. And I think that that's where the challenge is. And I think that, like you said, most people's gut reaction is to say we're going to sell three times as many jobs, thinking that, hey, I made $200 on that, so I can sell five of them in a week, and I'm going to be making 1000 when, in actuality, your overhead goes way up, your profit margins go way down, and now You're putting 5x the work in place to only 3x what you're actually walking away with, and

that's where I think people end up getting in trouble and don't understand the economies of scale of of your business. The big thing I think businesses can sort of not even marketing, just in conversations with clients, talk to your skill set we have. We're insured, you know, we're going to make sure

the job's right, that sort of thing. Like if you hire an owner operator and he paints half the room and day two, he doesn't show up, and you have no recourse to get him back here, you know, and you paid him up front and, you know, I mean, like, there's as many stories that go that way, yeah, where it's like, I have my name on the truck, I have the Google reviews. You can go blast me if I don't finish it, I'm not going anywhere. You know, this is my reputation. This is what I do.

And look, that's easier said than done, but that that is something a lot of people that are undercutting, and it's painting that room for 300 500 bucks aren't going to say because they can't offer it. You know, the only thing to your point, Tyler, you talk about this a lot, the only value

they're bringing is a cheap price. I think at the end of the day, you you just have to realize that, like we're going to get to a point in our industries and with the work that we're doing, that we're going to be capped out, and I think that focusing on generating efficiencies within your business is going to be the answer to a lot of the struggles and creating those systems and being able to grow your business, like to me, and I just recorded a podcast on this a

midweek where it's like, the definition of scaling is to be able to put more work in place more efficiently, like to grow your output. But I look at it from the perspective of, like, maybe I'm not going to grow my output, but I can create efficiencies within my business that let me to do the same amount of work quicker. And to me like, it's not the traditional definition of scaling, but like, at that point, if you if you say, hey, this there are, these are our

sales. This is our revenue in a year. Let's aim to put work in place that takes less time for that same amount of revenue, like you're increasing your margins. And I think if you build your business around that, then it gives you opportunity to scale, because now when you actually increase your top line sales revenue, you have efficiencies in place that aren't just costing you more money to put that work in place. And I think that's where, like opportunities like AI or or, you

know, system, systematizing. Is that a word your labor or prefab? Yeah, they can. They can afford you an opportunity, not necessarily to be less money, but to be more efficient with your work and create better margins or a better product on your work, while still remaining competitive. Because at the end of the day, even the wealthiest people have a budget, and

they're gonna say no, and I always say it. I'm like, I have a bunch of consulting calls where people are concerned that they're charging too much, or they're, you know, they have people who are objecting to their pricing. And I'm like, like, are you driving up to the job in a Ferrari? Do you feel

that you're ripping people off with your. Numbers like, do you feel that you're going on vacation every other week because you have so much money coming in, and everyone's like, no, and I'm like, well, then you're getting objection, because you're probably more than the market rate. So you have to find a way, if you have to stand by that market rate, to create these efficiencies within your business to make the money that you need to because you're it's not that you're expensive.

It's just that people are used to paying a very small amount of money for this stuff. I also think it comes down to the experience, right? Like we all will pay a premium for a better well, I shouldn't say we all met. A lot of people will pay a premium for a better experience. And I think I alluded to it in one of my emails to our

newsletter the other day. But you know, we had a job, and the architect straight up told me that they just didn't value our white glove approach, nor with the client, and they were going to go with the guy that was literally millions of dollars

cheaper. And you know it I'm summarizing here, but in more words than not, he basically explained to me that even though this guy is going to be a nightmare to work with, you know, we we feel comfortable that we'll end up with the result that we want, and and it's not worth paying you more money for a better experience, yeah, which I, you know, I think shame on the architect for bringing the client down that road, because I'm sure the client doesn't agree with that

sentiment, but at the same time, it's okay. Well, that's just not, that's not the team we want to work with anyway. You know, I could, I could run that job like a cowboy and be a complete asshole, and, and, you know, get the job done, but have it be a mess. But that's just not our approach. Yeah. And as cowboys, cowboys, I mean, yeah, I think the the point of this whole discussion and topic was it just got me thinking how it's not quite as

easy to say, hey, let's charge more money, right? Like in business, in life, you hear so many people, and it's been 10 years of hearing, just raise your prices, raise your prices. And that's not, it's not as simple as that. And I've, I've asked people before, and I'll ask you guys, like, if you could do half the amount of work in a year but make the same amount of money, would you do it? Yeah, right. Like, why wouldn't you?

So for me, it's like, if you want to be more competitive, if you want to make more money, find ways to to put the same amount of work in place with half of the effort. And I think that gives you the ability to scale or grow your business, or screw it if you don't want to do half the amount of work, make the same amount of money and then do what you want with your

other time. I think that where you have to be careful, and I think this is where it allows you to raise your prices, is once you start generating those efficiencies, however you're budgeting for those projects, however you're budgeting your time at that point, needs to go way up, because if, if, now, basically you're you're estimating, or your TNM, or your cost plus, and you're putting 2x the amount of work in place for

1x the cost, you're also going to go out of business, right? So it's like, let's at that point you're you give yourself the opportunity to raise your prices because you're generating efficiencies within your workflow that justify that. It's

not just creating a more expensive job. And I think that if people understand that, if employees understand that, or that that's what we have to do as business owners in order to make more money, I think they'd have a better understanding of what our day to day looks like, and how much stress and pressure we put on ourselves to make sure that There's work on the table, not like, not necessarily for our own financial well, being like, that's not the stuff that keeps me out at night, as much

as, hey, I have people who are depending on me. I think that that that's where the real stress comes in, and that they're putting a lot on the line in order to generate a lifestyle for you as well as themselves. You know, something I, I battle every day is the fact that there's other builders that have done this 3040, years longer than me, and I lose work to them. And I, you know, I've gotten frustrated where it's like, why is that? Why does that

matter? Like it shouldn't matter, like, we can still deliver the system. We can still deliver the project. We can do a better job than a lot of these, these guys. And then yesterday, I was at a client's house that we had just finished, and he said, you know, he was familiar with another home that we had done. And he goes, Hey, you know, I think you did a better job on ours. And I was like, Well, I would hope so that one was nine years ago, yeah. And it, you know, kind of has me

thinking, especially what we're talking about right now. It's, it's all of the the knowledge that you know, that we've earned and, you know, and everything that we the systems that we've built, the problems that we've faced, that we can now prevent. And there is something to say about experience and time doing

it that does warrant that cost to continue to raise. You know, different than the sole proprietor verse The guy with the team, but you know, not so much in the sense that you know, when you're just starting out, yeah, you you might have to start out at a cheaper cost, you know. And I think, you know, like I said, it's something I'm facing right now. And I'll tell you another conversation I had earlier this week, actually, no,

today's Tuesday. It was later last week, but I was, I was talking to another builder, and was explaining how I was asking for advice. I was like, hey, you know, you built an amazing reputation. You know, you do some of the craziest projects, like, I'm trying to get your advice on how we kind of break into this market, and he goes walk me through some of the projects you've lost recently. So I walked him through one

specific one, and I was big, $9 million project. And you know, I was like, it was crazy, because I sat in that room and they said, Nick, you understood the project better than anyone else. Your proposal was more thorough. It was way it was. It was really easy to understand, like it was complete, like everything was in front of me. You had the detail when I needed it, but you simplified it, where, where it made sense. You you the most esthetic looking proposal. It was just well done. You

presented really well. You actually interviewed really well. The client really liked you. They liked your process. They liked how you would communicate throughout the project. Your I was like, What about pricing? They like your pricing was exactly where it they expected it to be, but, but. And they were like, but you know, they end up moving forward with this guy because he's been in business longer, and I walked away and for a year now, or a year plus, I've been very

frustrated at that. It's like, that's not something I can control. And I'm telling this other builder, and he's like, you know, your incentive for them to work with you just wasn't aligned with where, where they thought it would be. Your incentive going into it was my processes, is, is dialed, my communications, dialed. They value that. They totally value that. But they value the experience more than all of

that. So you know, whether it's the right, you know, advice or not, one of the things that he had said he goes in my career, when I was in that position, I had to convince someone to give me the shot. You know, listen, I understand that. You know, I'm telling you all these things, and you like all these things, but you're valuing experience over, you know, over everything. So despite me being aligned exactly from a cost perspective, you know, you're not giving me the shot. And he said, You know,

I end up doing that a project for a reduced fee. And it was the second person that told me that, and the first guy told me that. He said, I'll do it at a reduced fee. And if I screw up one time, I want you to fire me, and you can go hire this builder over here who you know that can execute and step in and take it, take it over, and I'll just sit back and be an owner rep for

you, or something like that. And I was like, you know, there is something to be said about that where it's, you know, we, we're sitting here. We preach raising prices and getting to a

profitable business, but we, but we can't. I think a lot of people struggle with that because they're in a similar position, where it's, they're trying to scale, they're trying to break into these markets, and you have to, you know, you have to be competitive when it makes sense to be competitive, and when you're going out, I'm not saying for a quote, unquote typical job. I'm saying this specifically for breaking into a new market or trying to up the ante of what your business is

doing there. You know, there's time, there's a time and place for it, and it's something that I've been, you know, really considering for the last week is, you know, if I'm really going to break into a higher market and compete with the bigger guys, I need to incentivize the client to give me a shot. I think you also have to, like we were talking about under like experience is going to breed. I. Uh, efficiency and ingenuity.

And I think that a lot of times, yeah, like, experience does give you an opportunity to charge more money, but I think also sometimes it gives you an opportunity to perform more at at a given price point, because I look, I look at like you said when I first started in business, and it's probably the same for you Doug, but even if I break it down to like a simple task of installing crown molding in a room, and like my pricing hasn't really changed on that I just do it in way less time now,

so like the overall number is the same, but I'm far more efficient with my setup and my process and my product, that I'm able to execute the same amount of work in a smaller amount of time, and it allows me to put more work into place at the same price point. I'm not just saying, hey, like, there's an

opportunity to sell that job as hey, I have the experience. It's going to be better, but when it just comes down to being and remaining competitive, yeah, I can hit the same numbers as everyone else, but I'm actually going to make my money through

being lean and through being efficient. And I think, you know, that's something that Doug, you're probably going to have to turn to a lot with your business and utilizing some AI strategy and techniques to take your owner fee out of some of the work that you're doing and remain competitive, but increasing your margins and your profitability while doing that. Yeah. I mean, we're, we're trying to grow with the ever growing ns, builders, modern craftsman, empires, so and grow

client base. So it is, it is a challenge sometimes. But yeah, I mean, there's just, there's so many opportunities for growth and scaling, and I think that we're all looking at it, and most people in our businesses look at it, most people I speak to that is just like, hey, we have to put more work in place. And I think that there's a lot of opportunity to increase margins first and then worry like, increased margins, refined

systems. And then at that point, if you want to put more work in place, like your golden to do that, and you can, you can elect

how to do that or how quickly to do that. But for me, the first step is just creating those systems, creating those efficiencies, making your current business model as profitable as possible in the market where you are gaining that experience, and then putting all of that into use if at that point you want to put more more work in place, you're already set up for success.

And the easiest, not the easiest, but the most podcasts are very approachable to systemize, just because the nature of what they are, whereas what I do for Nick and like site visit, that isn't just something that can be, and it can be, it can have a process to an extent, but there just needs to be, there needs to be that human touch to it, because every time it's so different, each episode of site visit is, you know, obviously it's not apples to apples here, but it's like

building a house, right? It's the same, but it isn't this house is different than the last house this one's going to take a little bit more of this than that, right? There are no two episodes alike where podcasting is pretty no matter what it is or what you're talking about. It's pretty formulaic and how to edit it and export it and yada yada, where, when you're doing something like site visit for Nick or a product, video, or whatever that's there's a skill, there's an artistry to it, right?

Yeah, certain aspects of that tender, yeah, but like, there's certain that can't be, right? Yes, there's certain aspects that you can't make a substitution, right? And you can't swap one thing for another, and you can't pull yourself out of that equation, right? I think it's, it's finding the balance where you can to create the efficiencies to be able to get some growth there, right where it's like,

yeah, I'm learning. We're making mistakes. But for this portion here, like, I don't need to have my hands on this, there's people who can handle this and just creating a system where there's less downtime, there's less just input from from your. Perspective and balancing that with like, too much, too little. And where's that? Where's the equilibrium point where this is the max thought we can do, as far as work and just production while still meeting the standards that our clients want

delivered. And then at that point it's like, All right, here we are this. We're maxed out. Now without taking on more, how do we get to a point where we're putting less time into this and like, refining, refining, refining, and you get to a point

where it's like, all right? Now we're doing this, and it's taking us 10% less time, which we either use on building our business, or we use on, hey, now, you know, every two weeks, that's an additional day that we have that we can devote to something else throughout the year, and it's, it's just those little things. I think a lot of times with growth, also, things

change so quickly, and you're constantly adapting. And it's like, you know, you're Doug, you're wearing the tool belt, so you have your hand and everything, and it's almost like, well, I can't imagine taking on anything else or doing anything less at the same time. And I think that that's that's like the cycle that you can get stuck in that actually stunts your growth, because it can't live without you, and it it

can't grow with you. And finding that, that equilibrium point where it's like, okay, yeah, we can do what we need to do and make our clients happy and still meet the numbers that we need to, that I'm not having to work 80 hours a week just to break

even. Yeah, it's, it's like, it's the classic story of small businesses, I feel, especially in the space that we are, where we all got into this from the hands on, artistic perspective, and then it's like, well, how the hell do we make a business out of this, while still wanting to maintain and have and meet a standard and feel content with what we're doing. Yeah.

I guess statistic you take all statistics with a grain of salt, but I heard a statistic a couple weeks ago about media companies like 19 out of 20 of them fail, fail within five years or something. It's like, I mean, that makes sense, because you think it'd be like this super profitable. And that's not to say there aren't super profitable media companies, but I think it you get to a point where it becomes that maybe 10 years in,

but it's got to be like, I don't know. I look at it from the perspective of barrier to entry as well now, where it's like, there's just, yeah, there's like, an opportunity for so many more people to get into it. And you also have to consider quality, because where it's like, yeah, we can oversell this, and we can over produce this, and we can differentiate ourselves that way, where it's like, nobody's going to create

the caliber of content than we are. But at the end of the day, we're all watching this on a three inch by five inch screen. So really, what does it matter? Yeah, yeah, and I Yeah, it's interesting. You say that there's a someone who reached out to me who he bought a drone for a vacation. He's been trying to sell it to me too. He's like, Oh, maybe I'll just start doing weddings on the weekends. He's like, how much can I charge? How much can I charge for that?

Yeah, like, just show up and do some drone shots at a wedding that went on. Distracting. I don't know if there's a lot of scenarios where they're just gonna hire you just to do drone shots, but I'll play along. I'm like, You're gonna have to spend about 1800 bucks, between 1018 100 bucks on drone insurance. And I kind of went down all these things, and he's like, Yeah, I definitely don't want to do that. I'm like, You should probably charge, you know, 200 to 500 bucks, depending on how

many images, how long are there. He's like, I don't know. I don't think I want to do that. I think in his mind, he's like, Oh, I can make a couple grand a weekend, or maybe you could. I'm not saying you can't, but I do think everybody thinks they could kind of step up to do it, and a lot of people can. Your

phone is a very powerful tool. I tell a lot of people to start with their phone, and when they're not happy with what they're doing with their phone, that's when you go to hire a professional. I told someone that last week, and they were like, I feel like I should just hire a media crew to start creating content. And I

was like, You're not even doing it on your phone. Yeah, you can't, if you can't just go. Right to that's not the first step, no, because, like, you're gonna, they're gonna show up and they're not, you're not gonna know what to do. You're gonna be overwhelmed. Yeah. It's like, just, you know, especially the new phones nowadays, like, the camera's so good. I mean, I also like shooting on higher produced like, for me,

Doug, what you do. It's like the cell for me is how lean you are, how mobile you are, and how efficient you are with what you're doing. And that's like other stuff that I shot where it takes two days to shoot, we're able to do with you in a few hours. And like, if you were to watch it on a TV screen, all the gaffing, all the lighting, the directing, yeah, it makes a

difference. But at the end of the day, when it comes down to, like, budget and what you're spending and the time investment and what you're having to pull away from work, like is that the sell is that the move is that the path to sustainability and growth. I don't know, like, I don't know if everything needs that level of production when you're able to do what you're able to do, like, with such agility, yeah. Now, I mean, if you want to, if you want to, you know,

double the amount of shoot time and triple the cost. Talk about lighting setups and gaff work like, to your point, that's, that's a quick way to make a two hour shoot, a three day shoot, yeah, and nobody else can do anything during that time on the job

site. Yeah. I mean, actors get paid to sit in trailers, you know, because the DP, like, they're lighting, they're so crazy, yeah, like, you don't realize it until you see it, but it's like, Yo, that whole shot just took four hours to set up, and then we got a break down, and it was for, like, yeah, it was for like, Four and a half minutes worth of content.

And I bet, like, you know, sorry to butt in, but it's like, I value that, like, and it, you know, from my own sense only, like, I love the cinematic stuff, and like, I send Doug's stuff constantly. Is like, Nick, like, we'll do that. But like, you have to understand that that is they're not, I'm in a place for it. That is not what we're doing. Yeah, definitely a time.

And I'm like, but for me, like, I don't want I just want it. I was like, and whistling diesel is actually a great example, because, you know, his content is, have you ever seen it? Tyler, yeah, yeah. Like his contents, ridiculous. But he, a couple months ago, he posted a video in the the first, like minute, 30 seconds, was this insanely cinematic shot of him, like on a bus. I don't even, I don't actually remember what the

intro was about, nor why he did this cinematic shot. And then it just turned into him, like rolling a Dodge Ram down a hill upside down, yeah, and, but I was like, I love, I was, like, so intrigued by the fact that this was so cinematic that it got like, that was the hook. Like that for me, that was the

hook. And it's, you know, and Doug, and I constantly talk about content, and it's, I mean, the reality is is, like, some of the most viral content that we've ever posted is just shot on my iPhone, and, and, and, but I and someone's like, so why don't just do that? I'm like, I do want to do that, and I want stuff to go viral, and I will continue to do that, but I want

to also filter in the the sexy stuff. Yeah, it's like, a great example is this Ashton Hall guy where it's like, you know, if you don't know who he is, I guarantee you know who he is, because he's the guy that put his face in the bubbly ice water, and now everyone's making fun of him. But the dude amassed, I think it was 14 million followers in like, six

months, or something like that. And that's great. He's created this insane viral, virality behind his personal brand, but it's like any selling coaching courses, and apparently it's a big scam, and he's stealing people's money, but regardless of put a pin in the Yeah, put a pin in that, but regardless like the the the reality is, is like he should be doing, he should be creating this viral content, But then supplement it with an actual product, yeah, and then, you know, and I mean, hopefully

that's not true, but, like, apparently, apparently it is. But I think again, it's about that balance and finding where you fit in the space and understanding your limitations and where there's where there is room for growth, and where there there's a time to really focus on being lean and creating efficiencies within your business and systems. And I think that the more that you can do that you know it's the less work you have to put in place. Space to generate the same

amount of work or volume at the end of the day. And I think that it's a really great way to grow your business or set yourself up for, like, actual substantial growth, rather than just, you know, like my paint, my paint, example, where everyone's just gonna think, well, I'm only making 190 bucks in two and a half days. Like, I gotta sell five of those jobs. Where it's like, maybe that's not the answer. Yeah. Well, we've been talking about a lot is not over

producing content. So when Nick was talking about, yeah, some of the most thing, the biggest reaching videos have been just shot with his phone. So now we, you know, we plug a mic into his phone and, you know, we record, sometimes two, sometimes six, or whatever, quick short videos with his phone that live on his phone, and he can post them whenever he wants, because they're sort of ready made videos. So we're not over producing that that's not taking four hours of my time or Paul's

time editing. They're just they were done kind of in the can, in auto, in the can, in camera. So knowing, knowing what level of production value to put on the content as is as important as the content itself, we're kind of finding that just kind of reinforces what you're saying. It's just like that is something that we spent a lot of time doing, is editing short frame, short, firm clips that could have just been shot with Nick's phone, and they get double the

reach. But to that point like I want to do that and then supplement, oh, I'm not saying, Yeah, we still do all the other stuff. I know very friends, protecting. I'm protecting one piece of the thing is that I'm still spending 20 plus hours a week editing site visit, and Paul's putting together reels that are the sexy reels. So we're still doing the other stuff. We're just that's

part of it. And I think that that's like the conversation where, yeah, okay, we need to make more money, or the cost of operating a business have gone up. And instead of just saying we're gonna raise our prices 50% it's like, hey, well, you know what, we can upsell you on this. And while we're here filming this, we'll also film two or three things on your iPhone that are a small amount more, and it's going to cover the increased cost of

business and inflation and everything else. And we're going to bring value to this relationship and and this transaction through that. Rather than just saying, hey, you know what, what we did for you last year is now 30% more. You're creating a product or an experience or a system or an efficiency within your business that's actually bringing value

to the table while capturing a higher rate. To me, that's that's the move where it's like, yeah, this doesn't really cost us that much more, but it's bringing that much value, and we can cover our time or any increases in cost. And I think that a lot of people behind the scenes don't see that, or don't understand that. And just think that as business owners, we have

this opportunity to say, well, you know what? It costs this much more to be in business this year, so we're just next job we you know, with the calendar year rolls over, we're just adding that to our pricing where it doesn't that's not the way it is, not in our business, not the size that we are. If it is, that's amazing. More power to you. But I think that most people in our line of work probably struggle with that,

right? We can't charge more, and we're not getting work as is. So where do we go from here? Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. That was my that was my musings for the day. I didn't know what we're going to talk about, and then I got that text, and I was like, Damn, that is not accurate at all. Listen, here was his name, Dom. Big Dumb. Yeah, big dumb guys love people named DOM down there in Philly, don't you dude? Italian? Who else is Dom? You don't follow football.

Big DOM. Down there any eagles? I was thinking the guy from Fast and Furious DOM. Oh, that's all Toretto. All is he has, like, a bunch of Brazilian guys who frame for them, and that's what they all that's what they all call them. It's amazing. What Doug you? You started a podcast. I did creative context. Creative context. What I I'm just being honest, I haven't listened to an episode. So what is it? Commented on one? So hopefully that one. Yeah, AI baby, yeah, it's on YouTube.

Hold on, real quick on that comment. Meg accused me of using like, auto response one time. Like she posted something on Instagram, and like, I just happened to have my phone in my hand, and I saw it, and I commented, and I put my phone in my pocket, and I, like, had got into the room that she was standing in, and she goes, Do you have something auto responding to my posts? And, like, what? No, she was there. You just, you just did it, and your phone, you don't even have

your phone out. I'm like, timing just, was obviously Perfect. Great. Timing. Yeah, great. I have a co host. Eric wing, he runs a web development in SEO business in Cambridge, Darby digital. We met a networking group, and, you know, we had some good conversations. And I'm like, we should record these conversations, because I think people are interested, kind of the the take on it is talking about the relationship between clients and creative

professionals. And kind of bridging misconceptions is that tooth it's a strong like Tyler's brushes, your little mid, mid podcast, tooth brushing, just like to stay fresh. Quick, quick brush. Sorry, I lost my

trailer out there. Yeah. So kind of like, what you're saying, Tyler, when your buddy big DOM was like, hey, you know it's kind of answering that kind of question is, like, there's a lot of misconceptions around working with creative professionals and maybe a lot of people that don't reach out to them because of, you know, maybe they heard a bad story from this person over here. So we try to answer a lot of questions that kind of

revolve around working with creative professionals. And of course, we talk about our own businesses and our own processes and all that sort of thing. And there's a little bit, if you're not a creative professional, there's a lot of information to be gained about working with them, which is important, if you are a creative professional, there's a lot of information to learn about working with it's because Eric's been in business for 20 years. Obviously, I'm I'm on my second business, but I've

been a professional for almost, God, almost 20 years. No, not almost 20 years. 15 years, almost 15 years. That's crazy, which is wild to think about. But how many? How many episodes are you on so far? We're recording and posting 20. Our 20th episode tomorrow. Damn. What's the cadence for that? Once a week? Yeah, we only missed one week, and that's because I woke up one morning and my dog had scratched her retina. Oh, just the never ending story of Tess and her ailments. Are

you guys recording in person? No, maybe someday we will, but believe it or not, getting from South Boston to Cambridge, despite maybe appearing close on a map, depending on the time of day, could take an hour. So it's kind of like despite being very close, we are kind of in different ecosystems, so maybe I wouldn't rule it

out. So what was the main motivator for you to I know that you said the typical kind of stumbled upon this conversation, but do you have goals for the podcast as far as, like reach, or what you want to gain from it, or, yeah, so like that. Like I said, Eric and I met in a networking group, and as a very elder statesman networking group, like a lot of people in the group, had been in it for 10 plus years, someone had been in

it for 17 years. Like, wow, it was this really tight group. And I'd been in it for about a year, and I just, I'm like, there's nothing wrong with like they make me like, they track how much money is shared across the group, and it's usually well over a couple million or something. So there's it works, and I have nothing. It just wasn't for me. And I'm like the conversations we're having at these meetings. Let's record it and share it and kind of exponentially, yeah, reach out

to people and look, we're not doing that right now. Something I preach with podcasts is it takes time. You know, how many years have you guys been doing this? Since 2017 I believe, yep, so almost a decade, it takes time to sort of get rolling. And yeah, I think it that's just the point of the podcast is to kind of look, I want to learn just as much as I want to bring value to

the people listening. Uh, we've only had one guest, but I think we're going to work towards having, like, a guest a month or here and there, not not every week would be a guest, just from a logistics standpoint, I don't think we want to do that. But are there many other podcasts in that space right now? I think most of the podcasts in that space focus on creative process, yeah, like, tactical, like, yeah, and theories, how you do this,

yeah, not, not so much, how I do this. But like, you know, maybe like, like, how, like, step by step, but like stories about around creative process and like, like mentality. And I think it was Neil Patel's podcast I got on for a bit. He would do these, like, five to seven minute podcast, yeah. And it would be like, here's three things that you should be doing for Google ads. And it was, I was hooked on him for a while. I haven't listened to him one in a while. But it was, like, exactly

that. It was just like, you know, either theory or, like, quick. These are the, you know, the three things that you need to do. Yeah, and we're not sort of locked into any particular like, I think naturally, the podcast will sort of evolve over time, but right now, that's sort of where we're at with it. You

have to evolve. And I think that the more that you can, the more that you can adapt, the more that you can keep your finger on the pulse of what's going on. It's just like anything else, I think you'll have an ability to stay ahead, ahead of the curve, and just, you know, creating enough in it for yourself as well, and enough value in it for you too, that you can remain consistent with it. I think a lot of people who start them,

it's exciting. It's new. You're on this pink cloud, and then when you get to the point where it's like, oh, man, there's another thing I have to do this week, that I have to do every week, and that that, like newness wears off, that it's one of the first things to go and I think that if you are able to create enough value and serve yourselves through which I think is something that Nick and I didn't do for a long time, and I think something that we're actually looking to focus on a

little bit more now, but when you, when you provide for yourself through the content and through the podcast, I think that it makes it a lot easier to remain consistent and something that you want to wake up for. Yeah, and I, I talk about this a lot on a lot, but I've talked about this on our podcast. Like, I look at podcasts as like, websites in the 90s. Like, think about a company that came out with a website in the 90s, they were probably mocked a little

bit like, Oh, you have a website, yeah. What are you gonna do with that? And I feel like there's a lot of that around podcasting, probably because there's so many now, like, Oh, your podcast. But like, I think it's a I think it is going to be that is how people are going to more and more digest information about you. Is like, how much media is

there around you? And a podcast is a great way to just talk about, if you're listening this and you've thought about making a podcast, it's a great way to share your stories, your process, your things, even if it's just you talking at a camera, you know, the co host, or some ulterior thing like

that. Obviously this is outside a motif, but I've contemplated, I just currently don't have the bandwidth of making like a motif podcast where, like, it's just like a 10 minute thing that's also a blog post, but I just that's probably in the cards at some point. I think everybody should be sort of thinking about that for their website, as having a podcast that sort of mirrors the information that you're putting out there in

social and on your website in long form, right? Because then people can listen to it when they're in the car, when they're on a jog, when they're waiting at the fucking DMV, like it opens up the ability because someone can't read their phone like this when they're jogging, you know, probably they're listening to music when they're jogging. Let's be real. But you get where I'm going with this. It opens up the ability for people to digest information about you.

Yeah, I think that's where I've kind of taken even with midweek, where it's another with with Nick's email newsletter, that's just some me time each and every week that I probably would be doing, regardless of people listening or not. You know, it wasn't even till recently where we discussed numbers and what they look like a. Um, I just think it serves me well.

Selfishly, I know that it helps other people, and there's other people listening, but it's not necessarily about the numbers as much as kind of debriefing and compartmentalizing my life in my week and what's going on in my head, and just taking taking some time to kind of reflect on that, yeah, and I think that's, that's what people should keep in mind. It's like, there's a lot of builders that don't know where to sort of start with media, right? Like, I took some iPhone pictures. I

don't really know I want to post them. Blah, blah, blah, you know, we have a good website, or whatever it's like. Well, start a podcast and talk about that project you never posted pictures of and overlay some pictures. Don't hire somebody to do it. Use YouTube. Do it yourself. Talk about everything about that project you want to talk about. Don't fuck the architect or the design. Like talk about everything you want

to talk about, obviously, doing a professional manner. And that's no disrespect to architects, but like, talk about it from your perspective, what you want to talk about it, put it on your website. You know, it doesn't matter if it's exactly how you want it to look currently, but that gives you a starting point, and it's easy to do. You probably have a laptop with a webcam. You probably have headphones that have microphone. You're already there. You probably have some pictures of

that job you want to talk about. So that's a great place to start. If you're listening and like you keep you keep coming back to it every few months, like, Ah, Jesus, I still it's true. This is your this is your moment. If you've gotten an hour and 26 minutes and 4546 47 seconds in, do it. Yeah, you might not got all the tools. I mean, I think that it's in your pocket probably it's interesting

that from the perspective of why you did it. And again, I think that having that mindset where this is something that we're doing, it may not have necessarily aligned with your needs at that point. But rather than just give up doing it like let's take that to another platform. And why not record that? Why not that? Put that out if it helps a few other people, it's holding you two accountable to continue learning and growing and bouncing ideas off of one another. So everyone else, start

one for yourself and then have motif get on the editing. Yeah. I mean, certainly we could do that, but I think you should start for yourself, see how much work it is, become really annoyed with it and still want to do it. Then you call me, and then you'll feel a lot better. That's great. That's a I you know, Doug, last point on that, like, the reality is, is

people want the story behind things. And you know, even for us, like, you know, we talk about the content that we put out in and, you know, Tyler, I think you said to me last week about, like, my weekly emails. It is, is, frankly, been kind of like a therapy session for me, yeah, where it's like, I'm kind

of exhausting a lot of what's on my mind. And, you know, I realize there's a kind of woe is me aura around it, which I want to make sure I'm balancing with, like, here are the things that I've won at, and here's where I've made it and, and we've always said, like, we want to kind of talk about the hard shit that is very difficult, because social media is always about all the wins, all the wins, all the wins. Like, Well, what about the

struggle? But, you know, I've thought about the fact that I just, you know, I keep, I keep joking with everyone that when I finish white oak, I'm going to write a book about it, because it's, it was one of the more challenging things I've ever done in my entire life. And I said it again yesterday jokingly. And someone was like, You should? I was like, no. I

mean, I sure, I quote, unquote, should. But it's just like, you know, is that really what I want to do when it's all said and done, even though, like, I know it will be an intro, or maybe I just do a one like podcast series. Is like, All right, here is where we started. And, and, you know, and, and, interestingly, I've been saving little, like moments over the last two years of like, you know, things that have, you know, basically anytime I feel like, Man, I should just stop

doing this, because this is brutal. I've made, like, either a mental note, or I've taken a screenshot, or I have a couple of voice voice notes saved, just so I can. Back and be like, Oh yeah, that day, like I was done, like I I was tapped out, and, you know, and then fast forward, it's like, this is what we ended

up with. But your point, I think people like those stories, and I think that without like, inventorying that day to day, you only have the good correct, and you only have like, what's top of mind or what's most pressing at that

point. I think that that's like from a lifestyle perspective, perspective, from a business perspective, a self development like, you lose sight of how far you've come and and the steps that you've taken and the changes that you've made almost immediately when you don't document that, yeah, and I think it is, it's really important because not that you want to live in the past, but I think, to understand where you're coming from and where you've gone. And it's what I've always

you've made. It's what I've always appreciated about journaling. Yeah, and journaling isn't something I do, but it's, you know, but if you do, you can buy a modern craftsman notebook. There you go. There's that CTA. But I, like in the in I've had short stints where I would sit down and just write out all my

thoughts and be like, I should do this every day. And you know, I think that there's a lot to be said about that, because it is, it gives you opportunity to reflect and for the good and the bad, but, you know, to understand how you've worked through some of this stuff. All right, on that note, we did another podcast, and we didn't talk about my house. That is what you said. We'll save it to when done. There

we go. Well, Doug is renovating his house. If you want to see the most updated version, it is on our YouTube, ns at NS builders on YouTube. Quincy, Doug. Doug. Doug basically says, I said, How's renovating going? And he says, it sucks. And then we do so, yeah, Doug, thanks for being on, dude. Thanks gentlemen. Thanks for all you do for the brand, man. We appreciate you. Appreciate you till next time. We'll See you next week. Adios, see ya.