Construction Business | Design a Scalable Firm That Grows with You | Architect Matt Arnold

This process of designing and constructing something is so difficult and challenging, and you need to, as a designer or an architect, show up in so many different ways being good stewards of people's kind of finances. There are so many layers to this that we as architects and builders need to be participating in. This is somebody's life they're going to build a home themselves and their family. They're going to

spend a significant amount of time and money. We need to be helpful in all that, stewards of all that sympathetic and really help these people. And we need to care like, like you have to show up and actually care about what you're doing. If you don't care, people are going to feel it on that other end. Welcome to Modern craftsman podcast today. We are joined by architect and entrepreneur Matt Arnold. He is the founder of Arnold and which is a design studio redefining how

architecture, development and construction intersect. We're going to dig into what it means to grow a business with intention, the power of decision making in design and how becoming both a father and a founder reshaped his perspective. This one's about craft clarity and carving your own path while leaving the door wide open for collaboration and

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with another firm in Boston, architecture firm. You, you actually mentioned it as a design firm. So Was that intentional? Like, is it not a. Architecture firm, it's a design firm. It's an architecture and design firm. Yeah, I think that you go kind of hand in hand, so, but unpack that, because I think a lot of people, especially a lot of people that are listening, you're like, that's the same thing, right? Why is that like, why is that different?

Well, I think interesting question. I think, you know, there's a lot of architecture firms in Boston, and there's a lot of architecture firms who kind of stay in their wheelhouse of architecture. I think the previous firm I was, I think we could say the name, if it's okay, has seen architects, you know, transcends the normal box of kind of being a built, you

know, an architect who builds. They do build. They do do architecture, but they do so much more in terms of interiors, in terms of branding, graphic design, kind of being a thought partner. They kind of really encompass the whole realm of design in architecture, not just being an architect, and I think that was, you know, a pretty powerful thing, and it's also

something that sets them apart pretty well. I think in this industry, has that always been, like, relevant within your industry, or is that something new? I think that's a bit new. I think David, you know, was, was a, kind of a trendsetter there he, very early on, realized, like he wanted to have all of those parts in house, and so that, you know, the complete story of a project from start to

finish could be told. And compared to, you know, hiring an architect, then hiring a separate interior designer, and there haven't been collaboration. And then even, you know, in the hospitality world, hiring a branding consultant, bringing that all in house, and talking about all three of those disciplines in one parallel line from start to

finish, is something kind of unique. You know, not every firm has the ability to do that, and I think it was, again, it was something very unique about Haseen. I look back at when I first started using architects, and even a lot of architects who we've interviewed over the years, and I feel like most of their outlook and just vision is more objective and utilitarian, where it's like, Hey, we're

serving a function, right? This is for the process. This is in order to get through zoning and get our submittals done and get our approvals done, but not necessarily like this overwhelming vision behind it, which I think is pretty neat, but I'm sure that there's a lot of challenges that come from

that. Like, I feel like, that's you have this vision and you want so much for it, and you could probably get into it and be like, Oh my god, it'd just probably be easier to design multifamily right now, and I'd probably make more money. That's very true. Yeah, very true. I feel like, I mean, just recently, we worked with a smaller architect, and sat down with them, and we were just chatting through the his business model, and he's like,

I'm all volume. It's just like, I get you what you need for permit, and then I stop, like, don't, you know, I'm not going to tell you what kind of Windows, like, I'm giving you a permit set. If you have some questions, I'll, you know, we'll, we'll spend a couple hours answering like our intent,

but it's just that's, that's the way they operate. Where from for my side, I I really align with the way has seen works, the way you you work, the way that these brand or these kind of all inclusive firms work where they they want to be part of the story from, like you said the beginning, all the way to the end. I've talked about before, where, you know, one of the most fun projects that we ever did was this project that the client literally left all his belongings and said, Throw

everything away. I want a brand new place. And I want everything brand new. When I show up, and I remember the designer, you know her like her eyes lit up. She's like everything, he's like everything, silverware and all. And she and it was, I remember finishing that job, and we're, we're cleaning up, and they're putting new silver and towels. And it was just, it was just a

way different experience. And I think for me, that's how I want to operate anyway, and I can think about the other side of that, where it's like, you spend all this time beautiful design execution, and then the client moves in. It's like their furniture sucks. It's like, I can't photograph this room. Or it's like, or I gotta stage it, or you just fought like, it's like, you, you

fall in love with it. It's like, when you buy a new car, you put your well, your kid is only 14 weeks old, but eventually, when they're five and six and seven, and you get a brand new car, and they get in, they make how. Absolute mess out of it. You know, it's like, oh, okay, like I thought we collectively were getting a new car looks like, only I believed in that, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, that's very true. And

there are a lot of architects that operate in that realm. And I think, you know, David in the firm had that feeling early on, and so wanted to kind of get their arms around it, so they started to bring in these other elements in house, so that they didn't have to worry about that. Because you're right, like, especially in Boston, especially Boston Proper, a lot of the work we do is interior architecture, right? We're not necessarily

constructing new buildings on every corner, right? So a lot of, I mean, has seen does do ground up new buildings facades, but a lot of the residential work is kind of more interior. So you can put all this effort into paneling and beautiful kitchens and living spaces and fireplaces, and you're right, if somebody brings in furniture, regardless of whether you think it's attractive or not, but doesn't work with the concept of

the space. The space is unphotographable, right? And this is regardless of esthetics, whether you like the furniture or not, the furniture doesn't work with the space. It's not going to present itself well in a photograph, right? I'm going to, I want to say something. I'm going to say something a little bit controversial, because I think that I I have an issue, not an issue. Your comment on the fact that most of Boston architecture is interiors. I agree with you, and I see

projects around the world. You and I have both shared those projects around the world, and I feel like every time I see a condo, like there's this one particular esthetic, I'm like, oh, that has to be in Boston. And it's always the same.

Because I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't think enough people here in Boston are pushing the envelope of what interiors could be, not in residential like you talk about hospitality, you talk about retail, for sure, but I feel like the residential world with these interior architecture projects primarily, are the same thing. It's like, you just like

you just rattled off. It's the fireplace, is the kitchen, it's, you know, bathrooms and then maybe some flooring, but they're not taking it to an elevated level, whereas I just think it's an underserved opportunity. And I'm not not calling out anyone specifically, I'm not that, and I'm not trying to backpedal here. I'm just saying that I think Boston, in itself, has has the opportunity to really push interior architecture up a notch

and produce at a much higher scale. Now, maybe I'm wrong, maybe that, maybe that does exist, and I just don't see it. So I'd be curious what your thought is on that. I mean, I think it does. I think I think you're right. You know, places like LA in New York have historically been a little bit more bold in terms of their architectural style, right? Yeah, I mean, LA, because they don't deal with the same kind of weather and thermal requirements that we do in New York, because it's New York, right?

What do you mean by that? Because I have something Well, I think people are just a little bit more bolder sometimes in New York, you know, the the there's people are okay, making substantial financial investments into properties, not that they're not in Boston. But, you know, I've seen that the caliber of that in New York can be quite different than here in Boston by like three, like three, 4x Absolutely, yes, absolutely not. Some of that's because of the price of the

property to begin with, right? Like, but, but even, like, I had a builder on Instagram reach out, and he was, he was asking about something we were using at 45 white oak. And he's like, oh, yeah, we're using something similar, just a, he mentioned the spec. And I'm like, Jesus, that's a, that's an expensive material. And he's like, Yeah, well, it's a, it's a two $50 million renovation project. And I was like, 250, quarter of a billion. He's like, Yeah.

I'm like, is it a like, is it a house? He goes, No, it's a penthouse in New York City. And I'm like, wait a second, I could you, can't you build the high rise for two 50 million? It's just to think about the fact that someone like you said, just has the the the desire to put a quarter billion dollars of money into a penthouse, however many floors it is like doesn't even

matter, but it's so it's just Boston doesn't have that. I could probably buy a state somewhere else for sure, at least a town for sure. Like, I own this whole town for a quarter of a billion dollars, and the other guys, like, I have a penthouse, insane, but I think, and so I asked a friend of mine, who's just kind of tapped into the residential, I'm sorry, the real estate world here. I. Yeah, I was like, dude, like, I don't understand how, how does New

York, and it's not just one. I mean, there's, there's tons of them that are, that are putting, you know, multiple hundreds of millions of dollars in these, these buildings and condos and in New York specifically. And it was interesting what he said. He was saying that Boston has that money, and people live here, but they don't spend the 100 million here. They're spending it in Aspen or in in Florida or something like just somewhere else, like they have a beautiful home here that they spend a

couple 10s of millions of dollars on. But it's not there. It's not where they exhaust money, like people in New York. And to your point, that's because it's New York. I also feel like, obviously, I'm not in Boston, but I think that it's a little bit more traditional and older, especially than LA, Oh, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think, like the folks here are a little bit more

traditional in nature. That can equal, sometimes being a little bit more reserved in the types of esthetics that they do where, you know, at my previous firm, we did start to see, you know, they were doing, starting to do quite a few second homes. And that second home market is definitely a place where people are willing to be more adventurous with their money, with their home, with the establishment, than maybe they were with their Boston brownstone. I mean, we had

clients that we did projects for. You know, their two different homes in two different locations were very different. Their Boston Home, felt Boston and their remote home, whether it was, you know, on the cape or out west, you know, had a different esthetic to it, and they were kind of willing to be a little more playful with that. Some of that could have to do with the maturity of the Boston Market, like if you build something too specific to you, people are always a little bit

afraid that it won't sell. You know, I don't know if New York, maybe New York has just found a way to kind of get past that, like it just has that cool factor. So they always know it

will sell if it's quality. Where I do think still here people, you know, they want to make sure whatever they do is for themselves now, but it still has that market value down the road is, is your, um, your goal for your firm to have the same approach and mentality as the firm that You left in terms of just like, yeah, holistic design and being able to handle more than just the execution of the architecture. Yeah, absolutely,

I think. I mean, the one thing I really loved about, I mean, there's a lot of things I loved about working at my previous firm, but I did really love the cross collaboration between different disciplines. I mean, I'm an architect, I'm trained as

an architect, I'm registered. I definitely come at things with a very particular perspective, and I did, although sometimes collaboration could be messy, I did like the challenge from the other disciplines in the office, when they challenged my assumptions, when they challenged my ideas, you know, it usually resulted in a better result, right? Because there was somebody coming from a different perspective asking me questions

that I didn't think of. That is probably the biggest thing I'm missing right now in my own practice, is I don't have that other discipline sitting next to me, but I am definitely working on ways to bring that collaborative nature back, but

in a very different fashion. You know, I'm not, I'm not going to be able to mimic the process that I had prior, and so I'm very interested in trying to find a new way to do that and that that a bit of like the why the brand is kind of called Arnold, and is it's to be open ended right, to not be solely about me being an architect, but to have the brand be rooted in me, but allows, like, this orbit of collaboration to kind of go

around me, right? And so leaving the Arnold and as an opening allows me to really highlight my collaborators, whether it's a contractor or an interior designer or a graphic designer, a fabricator, a mill worker or the client. So it's, it's, it's a, you know, it's a brand that's trying to celebrate the collaboration of outside entities, collaborating with me as an entity, right? Instead of it all being in under one roof.

Is that? Is that something that you feel like you developed like, I guess, further on in your career, I think a lot of that like be like having an ability. To collaborate and to welcome that collaboration with open arms and not, you know, put up a wall, or say, hey, you know, we're not going to do this. Like, did that take a certain amount of experience and self confidence to openly welcome that collaboration and

some of those challenges? Or was that something that you've done from the outset, not 100% it took time, yeah, for sure, as a, as a younger designer, as a, as a, I guess, a more immature designer, you know, I certainly wanted to be, you know, the loudest voice in the room. And there was many instances where I was, but I think over time, I definitely started to see the value and the result of these different disciplines and really

understanding what they did in comparison to what I did. Yeah, so absolutely that that took time, you know, it's not something that I would expect anybody to get right out of the gate, and you have to develop some of that confidence, you know. I look back 10 years ago and unannounced to me, I think I've actually always been a confident person, but I didn't

actually realize that. So it actually took me a while to even realize that I even did have the confidence, like when people saw me, I think they did see a confident me, but I still had the apostle, you know, and it's still there today in some in some ways, but yeah, like, it takes time to develop all that confidence and to be able to sit back in the room and listen instead of talk. And that's really hard to do. I still find

that hard to do with my clients. Like i i want to say something because I have an idea, but I have to let them finish their idea, because I really need to listen, right? I can't just try to Trump them with what I think is a better idea in that particular second. It's, it's hard, it's a challenge. It's has not been easy. Yeah, I think that that's one of the biggest challenges that

people don't realize. Where it's like you're you're trying to gain experience experience and develop your skill set and just really refine your craft. And the cheat code is to bring other people in and to listen other people and have people challenge you. But it's so difficult while you're trying to develop that self esteem and that own confidence within your ability to be able to be challenged and be comfortable with that and not

have that affect your confidence. Because I think a lot of times at that point in our career, it's like we need things to be going right. We need to be the loudest person in the room, like we have to convince ourselves that we know what we're doing and when we're challenged a lot of times, it can hinder that confidence and actually make us take a few steps backwards.

Yeah, absolutely, I think, you know, honestly, I think it also as an employee, compared to the employer, it's a different dynamic as the employer, as the owner, you know, you automatically carry some confidence. And you hired these

people, you brought these people together. So like, it just feels like you're automatically a little bit more encouraging of that dialog where, when you're an employee, kind of slotted into somewhere, you're like, kind of like you're saying you're trying to find your space, you're trying to get your foot in, you're trying to understand your groundwork in front of you and figure out how to operate in this kind of system. So it's, yeah, it's something that definitely took a

bit of time. I've definitely recognized it, identify it, but I still have to be pretty cautious about it, even in my working, you know, day to days now, you said that you're not going to be able to structure your business the same way that has seen had structured their business, as far as collaboration and integrating people into your business. Do you can you specifically put your finger on

why you won't be able to do that? Or is that a decision you know that you don't want your business to grow to a certain size, or is this just going to be more of, like a natural evolution? That's a good question. Like, I mean, I shouldn't say never, because, you know, a part of the kind of Arnold and strategy is like Arnold and architecture could be Arnold and development.

I'm also thinking of Arnold and living with maybe some product line stuff that I'm working on, and it could be Arnold and interiors, you know, so I shouldn't say that I won't bring it in house. But right now, the charge is, I'm not trying to build an interior design studio, right? I want to collaborate with interiors folks because I very much value what they bring

to the table in terms of a project. But I'm not in a position to build out an interior design studio currently, because I'm building my kind of architecture studio in many ways. But yeah, it's, it's not out of the question, you know, if, if the trajectory takes me in a particular way, and the right opportunities present themselves with the right. Folks, it's really about the people, right partner or the right person came along. I would, I'm open to anything. If

the right person comes along, you know, I wouldn't. Well, I don't want to limit myself. That's part of the open endedness with the brand, is I don't want to limit myself. I didn't want to brand myself as just an architect day one. Because what about day 5000 you know, I don't know where I'm gonna go. And that's been the most exciting thing about it. The whole thing is, I don't know what's next. So do you have a specific or at least, like a quantifiable plan

in place for the growth of your business? No, I am a man after my own heart. So many people this year have asked me, What is your five year plan? And I said, My five year plan is to not have a five year plan. Yeah, as you know, I I came from a place where there was a trajectory. It was a very nice trajectory, but I left because I decided I didn't want to go on that trajectory anymore, and I needed to try something different, and I

wanted to still be open minded to possibility. And so it felt like in order to do all that, I needed to not have a plan in place so that I could take a sharp right turn when something cool came, and it's fine. If I take a left back and get back on track, that's okay, but I really wanted that flexibility. Do you think that's due to your career path in your industry, being that it like those constraints or having that plan

is going to limit your artistic or business freedom. I think, yeah, I think for me, it could have, for me personally, yes, like, just going down, if you're saying, like, going down the typical path, would I have limited me as a person? Yes, I think it would have, I think it would have limited my creativity. I think it would have limited, you know, what other potential design avenues I go down in terms of development or product or other things, I think yes, for me personally, it

would have limited me. I don't know that it's that way for everybody. But no, I don't think it is. And I think that you're you're probably going to run into an experience like the classic struggle that we all face when we go off on our own, where it's like, is my business going to grow, or in order to survive, do I have to grow my business or scale my business to the point where I don't get to do the things that I love as much

anymore? And I think that that that's that's a real thing, and that's something that I think a lot of people struggle with, and they they find that their only opportunity for growth is to pull themselves out of the day to day or what they enjoy doing, and then start constructing and growing and and orchestrating

that business. And I think you know that five years before you know it, you look up and you're like, I'm not doing anything of what I wanted to do or why I went off on my own in the first place. Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's a very good point. I think luckily for me, I mean, first and foremost, I love architecture, I love design. I love getting into something and modeling it and drawing it, but it is not the thing I want to do every single day, all day in perpetuity, right? I like

business. I like the pursuit of trying to get work. I love getting to know people and making relationships. I am a people person. You know? I say as my wife to my wife, I am a pack animal. I do not roll well by myself. You know, I get energy from other people. I don't I if I go to a business event, I come home, my wife's like, calm down, because I'm about, you know, spinning energy that I get. And most people come home, they're drained, right? It's like, Oh, my God, that

event was so much work. Not me. I come home on a super high. So I'm I again, I still love architecture, but I'm doing all of these architectural things right now to get me to the place where I can do exactly what I'm good at. And that's actually not the architecture, it's everything else, right? I need to put the people, my my Julian, I need the people in place that are excellent at the architectural things, so it allows me to do what I do best. It's funny.

I was listening to another podcast, and I'm pretty sure I stopped and I was like, I need to write that down, because it was so funny and so absolutely unrelatable, as far as like me internally. But it was very relatable where you you said, so many people are good with people, but they are exhausted by people. And I was like, Damn, that's me. Like, I can, I can be good with people, but when I'm done being good with people, I'm

like, I am so exhausted right now. And it sounds like you're the opposite, complete opposite at, you know, 830 on a Friday night, if I'm sitting home watching TV. I'm asleep. You put them in a room of people. I can go all night like, no problem, because I'm like, in between you guys, because it really depends on who I'm talking to. Like, I can be at one of those events and just be like, I'm here because I have to be here. I'll talk to a handful

of people. I'll go home, and I'm I'm not rolling off a high it's just like, all right, I I did what I needed to do and made that one connection, but, but if the right topic comes up, I won't show I won't shut up. You know, it's just like, if, one, if the right thing happened, like, the right topic, the right you know, we go down a rabbit hole. I'll just sit there and chat forever. And it's, it's anywhere I go, even if I'm in a group of, like, our friends, you know, usually I'm pretty quiet.

I'll chime in here and there and but if someone mentions a topic that I have any interest in, I'm like, All right, let's go. Yeah, I'm ready. I'll talk interesting two hours. Interesting. Was it the development of your own projects that that were the impetus for you realizing that you have other passions and like this business and entrepreneurial spirits within you, absolutely.

Yeah, I think I'm not really sure what drove me to develop some of my own kind of projects here in town, but yeah, early on doing that, like, I got a particular high and level of satisfaction out of those projects that I hadn't quite gotten in the professional world. I mean, I've done some really amazing projects here in Boston practicing as an architect, and those have been insanely gratifying. But I would, you know, never give them up for anything. But, yeah,

developing my own project. You know, when I first did my first one, back in 2016 I got out of that, and I was like, wow, that was something different, right? I there was a commitment there, there was a drive there, there was a gratification there. At the end, when that project was sold, and, you know, the funds were distributed, and my portion came to me. I was like, I it just, it didn't feel real, you know. And it definitely kind of opens up, opened up something inside of me, and made me want

to pursue this more and more and more. And, you know, I very much thought actually continuing to do the kind of side project development stuff was the path forward for me. But due to the real estate market and due to some I tried to buy a couple of pieces of property, it didn't go well. I through that process, I realized actually that that maybe that wasn't quite right, and that it really just needed to be me being entrepreneurial, me running the business, kind of doing my own thing is really

what I needed to do, like flipping some homes. Yes, you can make some money, but it ultimately wasn't going to make me the happiest version of me. Yeah, right. That's what I was going to ask if, like, if that project hadn't been, as you know, financially successful, do you think that you'd have the same outlook? I think so. Because, you know, I got, of course, there's the gratification when the check comes at the end, yeah. But there was a year of gratification before that, where

I had zero clue whether I would make any money at all. You know, I had no idea if I was putting all this time and money into this thing if I would make a penny. I had zero clue. I never even really thought about it. I was just like, This is what I'm doing. I'm building my own product. I'm loving it. I'm making every single choice. I just loved it. And then when the check came at the end, it was it was like, wow, that just got even better, you know. So I think even if that project

didn't make any money, I still would have done it again. Did you ever have that like intense feeling when you were practicing any sort of design, even if it wasn't in your professional design career, like, when you first started dipping your toes into that world, like, Can you recall that you had that, that same lust for wanting to learn and just increasing your knowledge? Or, I guess what I'm getting as, like, a lot of times when I get into something new, I'm the same way where I'm like,

voraciously into it. And I wonder if I'm like, if I do this a couple times and then I get it licked and I figure it out, am I going to be on to the next thing? But that's probably just like, the addict in me, where it's like, all right, I got this figured out. I want something more. I guess that's where I'm getting at with that question. Like, is it just the hunger for more and to to really just broaden your reach and become a more dynamic business owner or entrepreneur?

Yeah, absolutely. I think. I think for me, it is like, again, I still am going to be an architect. I still want to be an architect, but I think that process made me realize there's more to. Just being an architect, right? Architecture is such a small piece of what an architect does. Right? They do need to be a business owner, they need to be, you know, a life coach. They need to be a marriage counselor. They need to be so many different things. They need to be a leader. They

need to be sympathetic. There's just so many things. And I think doing my own project made me realize that being an architect a designer, was one piece to a much bigger and more complex puzzle, and I was more interested in the bigger piece of the puzzle than just one small piece. It's

crazy to have that perspective. And I think a lot of times going through that process on your own, or even if you have a client that you're like, emotionally close to more than so I have a client who I worked for for 15 years, since I started in business. She got divorced. She lives on her own. Her mom's now sick. She's like, I'm working on a project with an architect with her, trying to get through that and like, we now need a variant, and the zoning officer is giving me a

hard time because I'm trying to get answers for her. Meanwhile, working with the architect, like the team put together, she's in the hospital with her mom getting like, cancer removed from her body. And I'm like, they're like, there's, there's a much bigger picture here than me just being a contractor. And oddly enough, it's like, it's important to me, and I think that it's, it's very satisfying in a weird way, like being able to take care of people in more than just the transactional

sense. And I can see that, like if it's hard to understand that if your relationship with your clients or your you know, you never see that internally, through building your own project or working with your own family or having clients that you know you consider to be closer than just that transactional relationship, but I think that there is a lot more

to it than face value a lot of times. And people don't quite understand that 100% I mean, like this process of designing and constructing something is so difficult and challenging, and you need to, as a designer or an architect, show up in so many different ways. You know, I wasn't kidding about the kind of counselor and the, you know, marriage counselor, helping couples navigate this decision process, being good stewards of people's kind of

finances, right? There are so many layers to this that we as architects and builders need to be participating in. This is somebody's life. They're going to build a home for their themselves and their family. They're going to spend a significant amount of time and money. We need to be helpful in all that, stewards of all that sympathetic and really help these people. And we need to care, like, like, you have to

show up and actually care about what you're doing. If you don't care, people are going to feel it on that other end, how much of I know you built your own house, I think you're looking to build another house for your family. Like, how much did that experience teach you about how you need to cater your own business? Like process for clients? Well, I mean, my previous boss statement has seen did say every

architect should build their own house. And he is absolutely right, because you can put lines on paper all day long, but until you make a mistake and the contractor comes to you with a bill, you have to write that check. Wow. That's an eye

opening experience. You know, I also think from a decision making perspective, like, you know, you had mentioned that, you know, architecture is fundamentally about decision making and knowing when to, you know, pull a particular lever right, like when to spend when not when to

peel back. But I think that that is something that you know from an architect's perspective, building your own home, sure you're going to run into the mistakes and the cost of those mistakes, but also pressure you to consider, well, are these decisions I'm making, from the architectural standpoint, really something that matters, or am I just spending money right where it's simply just for the sake of a small, we'll call them moment.

And I think that is, that's something, you know, even going even building 45 white oak, you know, that is something that we have spared, quite literally, no expense on that home. And there's that, and there's been countless conversations about, you know, Do I regret spending on certain things? Would I have done it differently? Would I have would I have spent that? Would I have done that if I knew how much it was going to cost?

And I can comfortably say, No, I feel like we've approached this with a pretty, you know, good understanding of what our intent was. And that we're not making foolish decisions. But on the other hand, it's like, you know, would I have spent that same amount of money if it was my own home? I think so. But it's, you know, but I, but I think until you go through building your own home, you it's, it's almost as though, like, the emotional

attachment. I think it really comes down to money. The emotional attachment, yeah, you're telling people to throw out all their furniture because it doesn't match. I'll build my own house. I'm like, I'm designing this whole house around this bed to save 500 bucks. But I remember when we did our Tuckerman house that we, my wife

and I renovated. We, you know, I'll never forget we, the first thing we had to order was windows, and I decided to save $8,000 on Windows because I didn't want to pay for the nicer ones. And I regretted it from the moment those windows showed up in my site. And I was absolutely, that was just a stupid mistake like that. Like, I should have paid, I should have put the money where it mattered,

absolutely. Yeah, I have, I have my stores like that too. There are certainly a few things around my house that I look back and say, Why did I cheap out on that? You know? Why did I not do that? Well, you know, we waited to put windows in after the fact, which is a pretty easy thing, but like to renovate your whole house, to have a brand new house and have shitty single pane windows that rattled and the wind blew. You know, it's

just it made no sense. And, you know, at the time, the $7,000 seemed like the end of the world, but in reality, it was nothing. And there's a few other things around here too, that every day I look at and I'm like, Man, if I had just dropped another two grand, it would have saved me the last seven years of headache. But I couldn't have that perspective at the time. Every dollar seemed unsurmountable, every additional

dollar, and it was really hard. But I think that is between that and the development, like having to have the vision, execute the division, and then even in development, sell division, you know, really gives you this set of skills that you know, I didn't even know I would need as an architect. Right? Everything I'm doing is around kind of selling in many ways, right?

Selling ideas, selling concepts, not selling in terms of transactional but like you're trying to get people on board with your thoughts, your ideas, your your solutions for things. And that takes a lot of work to kind of bring people along, you know, educate them through the process. And I think, you know, some of those experiences I had on my own were just they, they meant so much to me and developed me as the professional

I am today. We spend the beginning part of our career trying to sell all of that, and then I think it ends up getting a little bit easier, where it's like, maybe the selling is not upfront. It's more of the vision once you get going. But I think that like, having the experience that you had with your own place, and then being able to, like, how long have you been there? Now,

seven years. Now seven years. So being able to live in that, like, makes that selling, whether it's on the front side, like in the middle of the design process, or on the back end, that much stronger, because, like, you were speaking from actual experience, and you had financial stake in that project. And it's like, listen, at this point in my life, I didn't have

the money to spend on this. But like, had I known what I know now, I 100% would do whatever I had, like, I'd sell a kid to be able to get this because, like, it's make our lives so much easier. And I think that it's a good point. I think that most people, contractor or architect or interior designer like should have to design their own space and be financially responsible for that undertaking in order to truly understand, like a 10th of what our clients go through, absolutely,

yeah, being able to literally show up in a sympathetic way. I think I could, I just was able to show up in a very different way from my clients after that, I really understood, you know, it's painful going through this process. Sometimes it's not easy. I mean, I think, I always think the result is well worth the effort, but it you know, you guys know, construction is not an easy thing, even when you have great construction partners.

I think that, you know, this is where a lot of builders and a lot of our peers will talk about the fact that clients should just build smaller homes. They're trying to they're trying to build the biggest home they can for the least amount of

money. And obviously this comes back to client education. But on the flip side of what we were saying a minute ago, it's also really important to you know, like the window discussion, like the $8,000 i. Saved, not only, you know, not just pushing the client to spend the $8,000 more, but explaining as to like, Hey, this is an area that you should spend more. This is something that's gonna be way more difficult to change or update

later. You should really consider, you know, kind of spending money for this particular line item and and approach it, yeah, empathetically, and understand that, you know, a client's budget should be treated as if

it was your own. But also educate them in a way that when they're making these decisions, they're they make, they make sense, and absolutely, if you're, if you're trying to build an 8000 square foot home, and you're cutting back on by putting cheap windows in, you know, is that really going to

net you a good outcome? Because I've always argued that a big reason why people leave their home or move or sell their home is because they're, you know, neighbors suck that, but also that they, they unknowingly, are just uncomfortable, you know, and it's because of certain decisions that were made and that, you know, whatever it is, the lighting sucks, the windows suck. It's leaky. It's never it's too hot, it's too cold, or or it just, you know, this is

poorly laid out. Every time I walk around the island, I hit my corner on the My hip on the corner. Yeah, there's all these things that show up, and we don't even know that we're just building this hatred towards the home. And instead of loving the home where we sell and we go and buy another one, thinking it will, you know, resolve the issue, when in reality, you know, back to, you know, an architect or and what an architect is, and essentially the the decision maker. It's

that whole process. It's why that role is so critical in this this process is that there these are the these are the things that that matter to how someone lives in the home, and until you know, until you experience the bad, and it's hard to ever know what is appropriate. And I would, and I'll what I mean by that is you're designing multiple homes, right? So you're, you're you're seeing this at scale, where you know, one person lives in one home and then goes and builds a custom

home. And they, they think that they can do it themselves, but they, they haven't experienced all the the issues. So it's hard to know what works or what's going to be right, because they've only lived in one and they can only experience one where, you know, as I said, an architect, experiences dozens and dozens of times, and everyone adds, you know, you know, an education opportunity for the next one. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you definitely learn every project

has their kind of learning objectives, right? That we we learn at the end. But you're right. That's, you know, the reason why people hire an architect is to help them with that whole process to make their way through. You know, there's, there's the folks that kind of do plans, right, like you kind of talked about that earlier. There's, you know, some people

just do plans and they step away. And then there's architects that actually, you know, help coordinate and execute the architecture, and that's staying involved, helping through all this crazy decision tree that needs to happen throughout the whole process. And, you know, helping people like you, right? I mean, you've talked about this before, right? Like working on a project without an architect complicates

your life as well, right? Like it's it's a lot easier when there's an architect and correct me if I'm wrong in the decision tree, kind of helping you get the decisions you need from the client in a timely manner so that progress can happen. Otherwise you and your team are spinning your wheels on site trying to figure out what to do next, right? And if it's not like I always say, if you don't draw it and it gets built, you

own it, right? If you didn't draw it and it didn't show up the way you want it, well, you have to pay to have that redone. Where, if you draw it and it doesn't show up the way you want it, well, then you know, there's discussions to be

I have a funny story about that. I we, we finished a job an undisclosed amount of time ago with an undisclosed architect, and we were done, like projects done, and they do a punch list walk, and we all agree on, like, a handful of punch list, and then I get a formal document of punch list items, and I'm going through it, and I'm like, what, what is, what is this like? And it was all these things that we didn't do, like basically build, and it was all these details that weren't built and based on

the architects intent. And I was like. Like, wait a second, we don't. We don't have those details. These don't even exist. And I we had this conversation. It's like, yes, but that was the intent. And, you know, I'm sorry I forgot that. They were like, we didn't, we didn't specifically call that out. And I'm like, Guys, you're not getting this. They were in my head. We are, we are done. This is not a punch I'm happy to do

it. Not a punch list like that is thing absolutely, and it was, you know, I would like to think that it was, you know, no harm, no foul, but that was, that was definitely a fast one, you know, interesting. But it was just like, in their head. They didn't communicate it on paper or anything like, allegedly, it was in the rendering. You know, yeah. I was like, yeah, yeah. But no, if you don't try it, nobody

was on site when those critical details were being executed. I mean, there was, we had 1500 photos of that, of that project, every, you know, throughout the whole project, like it could have been caught way earlier and would have been nothing, and it was just everything's done, and it's like, oh, wait, we forgot this. I did not forget this. Lesson learned. It was not there. Well, I can say I have not pulled that one before, and you should try it, see if it works.

So when you obviously new business owner, new father, I think that I heard were read that like you decided you were going to start your own business and leave, quote, unquote, corporate America, and you found out that your wife was pregnant. Like, shortly thereafter, like with the timeline was very close, right? Yes, yeah, I I gave my notice on a Thursday and Saturday, my wife came, like, in the evenings and sat down, said, I need to talk to you, dude.

She knew it before Thursday. I knew I think she did. She did, and she handed me a pregnancy test. It was like, This doesn't change anything you're doing, but I wish you this on Wednesday. Yeah, so I guess where I'm getting at with that is like, all right, you, I think you said you're 42 maybe I caught that at some point. So you're not young, but you're having your first child, you're leaving your job, you're starting your own company. Like, how scary was

this? Or did you feel that? Like it's just time? I mean, it was certainly scary, you know. I mean, there was a lot of, yeah, it was, it was hard. It was probably the hardest decision, you know, I've had to make one, because not only just leaving to start my own thing, but, you know, like the folks that I was working with, I had been there for 15 years. They were my family. You know, I had my mentor was there. Like there was, it was hard to just leave them as people,

regardless of the whole kind of job thing, right? I just, I wanted to be around these people every day, because I had been around them for so many years, it was really hard to even think about the fact that I wouldn't see them every single day. So that was one aspect, you know, the other aspect is, yes, going out on your own, you know, needing to make your own living, generate your own income, and then also, now having a newborn to or a child to potentially care for, you know, added so

many levels of complexity. But, you know, I, I went into it with, again, the confidence, you know, so much of this is just kind of building the confidence to be able to go out and do it, to know that I could win the work to know that I could be okay. And it was hard, but I knew I needed to do it. You know, it became a realization this year that this is something I needed to do. I needed to live out my version of my dream, and I had to do it, and ultimately, to be happy. And, you know, I'm

very glad that I did it. It's, you know, it's certainly had its challenges. But I think ultimately, like in hindsight, doing this well, having a child actually worked out way better than I thought, in many ways, because having the flexibility, you know, I have total flexibility. Now, like I my previous job was, I thought very flexible, and they were, they were extremely flexible with me, but I didn't understand what

flexibility meant until you work for yourself, right? And I really had 100% total flexibility of what to do with my day, how to spend my time, you know, needing to go to doctor's appointments and be home with my wife while she's on leave taking care of the kid. I love the fact that I was just before this, he was laying on the couch, you know, doing some tummy time, and I got to hang out with him for five minutes. That is a pretty special thing that I definitely would not be able to get back.

How the hell do. You have the flexibility that you do so new into business, like, is is this something that you were taught through mentorship? Is this you just taking structure from your past job? Because most people that I know like start their own business, and then they they, one of the the golden carrots, right, is that they're going to have freedom, and then they start their own business, and it's like I have no freedom. So

how are you structuring that? Well, I mean, it seems like I have glimpses of freedom throughout the day, but you're probably right. You know, I don't have a ton of freedom. Everything kind of stops with me. Everything runs through me. So I can't just step away from the business, like, if I go on vacation, that business doesn't run right? And that's a challenge, you know? I'm ultimately going to have to work through that and figure out how the business can run while

I'm not present. So it's, you know, maybe in some ways, it's a perceived freedom for right now, but the goal is to have more freedom down the road. So when you made that decision, I mean, I'm sure it wasn't overnight, but did you, I know you don't have a five year plan, but what type of I guess, like objective information, did you use, if any, to understand that you are ready to go out on your own. Like, was it, hey, you know, I need to look at my

numbers. I need to know what we need to survive. I need to know how much work I need to land. Or is this, like, what I did, where it's just gut check, and you're like, Yeah, I think I can make this work. Yeah, it was a gut check I had. It was definitely a gut check. You know, I just again. It came down to that confidence, like I finally could say to myself and feel comfortable saying, I'm

going to do this on my own, right? And you know, that idea had flowed through my head so many times in the past, but the anxiety of the unknown swept it away and said, No, you can't do that, you know. And I finally conquered that feeling and said, No, I can do this. I can do it. There was also, you know, I had a opportunity to do a nice project, which certainly helped sweeten the deal. And it kind of expedited things very quickly.

So that definitely gave me some confidence on day one, but very, very quickly, the phone just started ringing, and it was pretty clear that, you know, I was going to be able to have some reasonable amount of workload coming in. And then it's, you know, it's just been way more than I ever expected.

It's funny because I think, like when we're anticipating all of this, and we're projecting a lot of negativity, or like potential for negativity on what we see this transition looking like, and you realize that, like where you are right now, and like, day one of doing that, this is the worst it can ever get, right? It's like, I'm getting ready to leave. We don't really have a plan in place. I'm going off gut, and I'm leaving my business that I've been with for 15 years. Like, that's as bad as it

can get. And then it's just a matter of you doing what you've been doing for the past 15 years. Like you said you sold, you brought in new customers to the last company to work for, and it's like, we anticipate it being so bad, and then it's almost like the decision, or saying it out loud, is breaking free, like liberating from those chains, and you can finally breathe again. And then it gets like, considerably. It's it's

just like, having kids, it's a different kind of hard. But it's like, once you get that off your chest, it's so much easier just to go through life every single day and be like, I'm working towards where I want to be. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, in hindsight, with all this too. You know, working at a job, there comes a level of anxiety that you have on your day to day. You know, what am I doing? Am I making these people happy?

Am I progressing? Am I doing all of these things? And, I mean, it wasn't overbearing, but looking back, it was there, yeah, and today, here, sitting now, I have none of that, yeah, like, there's different anxieties, but they're, they're, they're just so different. And like, some of those previous anxieties could be a little, you know, they could hold you back a little

bit. They could, they could nick your limb a little bit, you know, because you're not being 100% of who you want to be like in the back of your head, you're always understanding that you're doing this for somebody else's name and like you're doing it the way that they see fit. And I think that it's not like 100% your identity which you're willing to like. That's it. It like you said. It begins and ends with you, right? You also can't go to. Directly to the source of that

anxiety. It's when you're working for firm. It's, you know, there's layers to that. Whether or not you're speaking directly to the client, you're you're not in charge of how that anxiety, you know, plays out, right? And I think that's the I think that's a big challenge when you you are, you know, employee versus an employer. But as you said, there's other there's other anxieties on the employer side that you know any employees would would happily not ever deal with. Yeah,

it's not, it's definitely not for everybody you know. Did they know or had you had the conversation with them beforehand that you were thinking of leaving? Or was this like, this is news to us? No, I had the conversation. I actually went on like a little architectural pilgrimage out to Fauci West, Frank Lloyd Wright's summer home out there, and had a bit of a realization that I

needed to do this. And this was last February. Kind of came home from that completely jazzed and spinning from all the inspiration, kind of realized that this was something I need to do. I spoke with my previous employer, kind of let them know, this is what I was thinking. You know, they said, you know, we're surprised, but not surprised. Yeah, they he kind of knew, you know, that maybe this was coming. I guess he said, I'm

going to support you. And then all of a sudden, there was an opportunity, you know, somebody I knew was buying a house, and said, hey, I'll kind of be your first client. And so all of a sudden, you know, my firm came into fruition extremely quickly, much faster than I anticipated. I feel like that might, that might be the best case scenario, though, was there a lot of anxiety with, like, the quote, unquote breakup, like, having that conversation.

I mean, I was certainly nervous about it. Yeah, you know, it's like, Absolutely, because I, you know, my previous boss, David, has seen he was, you know, my mentor friend. I really cared about what he thought, and I should have known he would have been supportive. But of course, that was such a hard

conversation. And you know, when I told him all this before I even had the opportunity, I just, like, met with him and told him all the things that were in my mind, we had, like, a really amazing kind of raw conversation as like it was not an employee and employer, employer, it was kind of, you know, two friends having a real conversation. And that was a really, really special moment for me, and I really appreciated that so much, so much. Yeah,

that's super cool. I think about when I left my my full time job, but in the parting words of of encouragement. But what was it that really encouraged you to walk away from that conversation, going into it so nervous, but leaving kind of really feeling as though this is the right move. If there was any specific, I mean, the specific was he said, You know, I'm gonna support you like, I'm not surprised. I think you have the

ability to do this. You know, I want you to do it here, but if you need to go out and do this on your own, he said, I'm gonna support you no matter what you do, 100% and, you know, just having those words it, you know, said to me was like, I felt like I could kind of take on the world, and it swept away all of that anxiety that I had, and, you know, just said, Hey, you know, we, you know, one of the things that's been exciting, too, is like rebuilding relationships with all those

people. Because he used to be my boss, he's not any longer, so now he's a friend. So many people there used to be co workers and colleagues, but now they're not. They're friends. So it's been kind of really interesting and fun to rebuild my relationships with some of these people that I've known for 15 years, right? And kind of interact with them in a very different way, right? And I've, I've really enjoyed that in many ways. You know, we don't talk about work like we used to,

because we don't work at the same place anymore. And so I think, you know, we've some of them were definitely already serious friends, but I think some other are starting to transcend a little bit more into the more friend world than the coworker world, which has been pretty cool, and something I definitely did not expect. I want to talk a little bit. You mentioned that one of your favorite books was, I think it's called the 4am club, but your

your routine, your daily routine. I think that it's important, obviously, having children and owning your own business now, but I'm intrigued to learn a little bit. You mentioned a couple of times that you're an early riser. And I just kind of want to know a little bit more about that, to be honest. Well, I mean, have you seen or read the 4am club? I have not. You should check it out. It's kind of an interesting book. I don't think I want to wake up at 4am though.

You might have to read it. Yeah, you're an early riser right now. I think you get up. I am. I'm like, yeah, 445 5am Oh, that's pretty that's early. Yeah, that's early. I mean, I'm barely 5am but I thought you were 4am I don't get up at four. No, the book is a 4am I feel a little better about myself. Yeah. I

mean, that's 4am is the extreme. But I think I really found that book interesting, because, you know, the idea of it is, is getting up before the world starts right, getting out in front of the day, you know, and I cherish that now, even prior to the baby, but getting up, having that hour to kind of set the tone for me and myself to prepare for the day. Because once that, you know, starting gun goes off at eight o'clock in

the morning. Some days, you know, I barely even sit down and it's 6pm and so if I don't chart out the things that I know I absolutely need to get done, they'll never get done, because something will always kind of get in the way. So there are early moments where the world is quiet, there's no emails coming in, there's no phone calls, you know, allows me to sit in my room, here, in my office here, prepare myself for what I know

is to come. And it's always a tidal wave, you know, and that's fine, but it always allows me to identify, Okay, these are the things that need to happen today. I have to do this. I have to do this, and it you don't always get it all done, but it gives me the best chance of accomplishing what really needs to get done. It's also where I like to do a lot of my thinking. I like to go out and runs early in the morning before the sun comes up, especially in the summer. It's nice and cool with

the dog. You know, that is like me time, you know, put the music in. Think about what I'm doing, where I'm going, ideas, it's I end up going for, you know, three, four or five miles. I get to the end, and I barely even realized that I was running, because I was thinking so much, you know, and it's kind of, it's really the only place that I get to have that kind of thought time, really by myself, because it's, you know, the world's quiet for me. When did you start doing that?

The early rising running stuff? Only a couple years ago, I started to do I started to realize how much more I was always kind of an early riser. But I started to structure my mornings better. I used to just get up, make breakfast, watch the local news, which I still do sometimes, but it made I started to learn that there was a much better use of my time early in the morning in terms of preparation for my day. And once

I started doing it, I realized how important it was. And when I don't get it it, you know, I notice it throughout my day, for sure. Do you feel that it's so and I don't think that it's this way, and I think that people have to be careful of this where it's like, it almost sounds as though you're waking up to be able to

structure the rest of your day. But I also think that it's and correct me if I'm wrong, that it's got to be important, that it doesn't have to be like an act of work where I'm going to sit down and I'm going to start figuring out how to structure my day for the most efficiency, where it's like now I'm just adding an additional three hours of work to my day like this is like a very freeing mental exercise for you where you're not necessarily engaging in everything else from a work perspective,

absolutely, yeah, you definitely need to find what works for you. Like, I'm not doing billable work at five o'clock in the morning. You know what? I mean? It's, it's really the me time. It's thinking, it's strategizing, that sometimes it's just working out or running, you know, but it's just being more intentional about those morning, morning hours,

and trying to set yourself up for success, you know. And I think to the working out, you know, in the morning, it always gives me more energy throughout the day, yeah, and it gets me going, it propels me into the day. I just always feel so much better when I move my body in the morning. I just, I'm not a person that can do it at night. You do it on the weekends. I do, yep, not quite as early, but I still like to get up, especially

now with the kid, yeah. Like, I try to get up before the kid every single day, just to have an hour before he gets up, because, you know, the energy in the house changes once he's awake. It's not a bad thing, but it just changes. Do the I mean, the ability to be in deep work mode is, I mean, it's just a game changer. And I find that airplanes, for me, it's Sam, you know, I put some music on, and I can sit there and work the entire flight and get in a

tremendous amount of work done. You know, I usually work out in the morning one morning a week. I don't, so I come in the office same time. I just get here at 5555, 30, and it's, you know, I'm I got an hour and a half of just deep work, and I can get more done in that hour and a half than I can you. Half my day

and but then it's during the day. It's just a gong show. And if I to your point, if, if I don't have, if I don't have, just a simple to do list, my brain goes in a million different directions in the moment, like, oh, I should get back to that person and I'll just pivot and and then go write an email responding to someone that reached out to me yesterday or in that moment. So for me, you know, I the the morning

thing easy. I'm up early. I like to work out. I try to switch to middle of the day workouts, because everyone's like, Oh, you'll get this burst of energy in the middle of it. I couldn't do it. I'm like, yeah, it's just this, and certainly not going to happen at the end of the day. So I got to stick with the morning. But for me now it's just I'm now, I'm thinking about, okay, I know I have all these things going on. I work really well in

deep work, and I work really well with to do list. But now it's, do I just have this running to do this all week, or do I block out Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, for individual, like, focus, and that's what I've been this is like, literally active, like, the last week, where it's all right for now on Tuesdays are going to be strictly modern craftsman podcast content. That's it. Like I have all these sales emails I gotta get back. I'm like, Nope, that's for

Thursday. I'll just focus on that. I'm curious to see what my like, what my capacity, how my capacity will change, because earlier today, I looked at my to do list. I'm like, I'm done. Like, I've finished everything I was supposed to get done today. Wow, which didn't mean I had nothing left. It was just, Hey, you said that these are the things that you're going to do on Tuesday. You've accomplished it. So be interesting to see if that that truly helps or not.

I'd love to hear you maybe talk a little bit more about that moving forward, because I would love to know if that works, because I would love to potentially Institute something like that myself. We used to at the office try to do some focus times where, you know, twice a week in the afternoon, there was no meetings during certain times. And we tried to set some parameters around the office to really allow us to have that kind of deep work time. And it, you know, it had some success.

It's harder to do in a bigger office, but I've definitely thought about that on myself, my own, to like, should I be setting certain times of the day or the week that I just I don't answer emails, or I don't have client calls, or I'm a full believer, and I've messed around with it in all different kind of formats. You know, previously I just in my calendar itself. I just said, you know, I'm blocking out two

hours twice a day where it's deep work, no interruptions. And you go, I sit in my office and I don't answer like my emails closed, everything gets closed, and I have to work on something, and just do that completely uninterrupted. And same thing from meetings, I basically blocked out of my calendar. You know, certain times I would take meetings and then just give

everyone the calendar link. It's like, if you need a meeting with me, here, you can have a half hour slot with me, and that's the only time I'd be available. And your staff abides by that. Well, I think it's just at the end of the day that it's, there's no option, you know, they'll ask me, like, Hey, can you meet earlier? Can you do this? Then, of course, like, there, I'm not, I'm not rigid in the sense, like, Nope, you have

to abide by it. But I think by setting the the expectation up front, then it just, it just naturally gravitates toward that where it's, you know, if you're, if you're constantly doing it, you set this structure, and this is what works for you. A good friend of mine did it. I, you know, I called him one day. I was like, hey, I want to talk through this deal. He goes, we got to talk tomorrow. I'm like, Oh, my bad. I didn't realize you're busy. He goes, No, I just don't talk about anything money

in the afternoon. I only do that in the morning. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. And he was like, Yeah, I just, like, my brain, I'm not, you know, at the end of the day, I'm winding down. I don't want to talk about money, like, it's just not, it's

not, it's not how I operate. But I would say, I mean, regardless of what, like, I don't think there's one format that works for everyone, but I think that having some sort of repeatable format, but really specifically, like, how can you dedicate deep work? And you'll find, like, that's where you make the most progress. And I've done, I've kind of bought into all the stupid Instagram hacks. I got the timer, Alex for mosey has

that actually works great. It's like, this little timer on your desk you set and it's like, I want 45 minutes of honor and uninterrupted time just seeing that thing tick there. Number one, you. It's like watching you. It's like, don't touch your phone. Like you got 45 minutes. I'm not done yet. But the other thing it does is it makes me realize just how long shit takes. Interesting. It's like, I'm working and I'm and I think I'm getting. Ton done, and I've looked down, I'm like, wait,

that was 45 minutes, yeah. I was like, I mean, Tyler, you and I, like, with all the stuff we've been doing with the podcast, it's, you know, it's like, Oh, I'll knock that out. And it's like, no, take a little longer. It's like, man, but I think when you, you know, to your to, like, starting a business, having free time you talk about it, and having the freedom, I think, without, without doing this, because, speaking from my experience, without structuring

this stuff, your freedom gets eaten up real quick. Yeah, it will. It won't always be the same thing. It won't always be, Oh, Matt works until nine o'clock at night. It will then be like, Oh yeah, he's home every day at six, or he's available at six, but he now he's working Saturdays or, or maybe it's not either that and it's Yeah, but he hasn't taken a vacation in three years. And I've been that person on all

ends of it. And it's, it's, it sucks, like, I've, you know, the last year I went through deep, deep, you know, valleys of burnout, because I was just trying to do way too much, and my my attention was just being spread so thin. It's like, it's like exercising. They say, you know, you can exercise all you want, but if you don't let your body recover, it's, it's, you're, it's, it's pointless.

I feel like now is the time to start implementing those. And yeah, you're, you're going to have to adapt, and you're going to have to alter them. But if you can structure a successful business that is, you know, not an extreme investment of your time, where you're just putting way too much time into your business, you could start structuring those things now and not create a lucrative business where you're really cheating the

amount of time you're putting into it. I think that you'll be that much more successful moving forward, because if you can't do it now, as you get busier, how are you going to handle it's like, Oh, I'll hire people, and it just gets more complicated.

So, yeah, I think like starting to implement those ideas and structure your day as you see fit now, and ensuring that your business is profitable and sustainable based on those constraints now, I think is going to be like, immensely helpful as you move forward. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can, I can see this writing on the wall, and it's so easy to just work, work, work, work. There's

always more to do. There's always something else I can be looking at, from a project standpoint to a business planning standpoint, to another event I could be going to, to try to make a contact with this person. And, you know, this past fall, you know, I was working a significant amount, you know, 6070, hours a week, you know, six, seven days a week. It's, you know, it's new, it's exciting. Yeah, you know, I'm trying to get things going. But, you know, I'm 42 I have a

newborn. I can't do that, right? Yeah. So I need to, like, you know, reassess everything. And that's also one of been the most exciting things about kind of being on my own is like, I have to, out of necessity, reassess every time that I need to do something new. Like, how am I approaching this? Am I doing this because this is the way I did it prior, or am I doing this because it's the best use of my time, or the best way to do this

thing right in front of me right now? So like, having that wherewithal to be, like questioning all of that, then making sure I am investing my time in appropriate places is really important, you know, like one of my first story things, it's, you know, it's silly, but like, end of month one came, and I was like, Holy shit, I gotta send an invoice. And I didn't have an invoice template, and I spent an entire day designing an

invoice. And I was like, that was the that was a waste of time, you know, because I wanted my logo to be the first, you know. And guess how long they looked the invoice. Enough, zero. Pay Now, exactly, exactly, yeah. And so, like, I think about that, I'm like, Okay, well, I can't do that. And there's way more things you could do that on, on a much, much bigger level, where you could spend, you know, days over the course of the month, working on something that gives you zero results.

I'll give you, I mean, two pieces of advice, you know, ask for or not. But earlier you said my my five year plan is not to have a five year plan. I was that way forever and until, I don't know, maybe it must have been over two years ago. At this point, I started working with a coach once a month, and just chatting through, like, what my my vision was for the company, and he asked me the same thing. I'm like, I don't have one because then how the how the fuck do you know where you're

going? And I was like, Well, I know he's like, I get that you have this vision, and I get that this is what you want to do, but you need to understand, like, what. What are the things that allow you to get there? If you want to be doing, if you're only, we'll just use revenue. For example, if you're doing a million dollars in revenue, and you want to be doing $2 million in revenue, that's not just a I'm just going to do more work. You know how much you're spending on marketing, you need

to double that. I don't know what I'm spending. Well, until you know what you're spending, you can't double it, and you can't double it if you don't actually have the cash to do it. So there's all these parts and pieces that are obviously

intertwined. And I think for me, that was that when, when you start, when you started, when I started breaking it down and realizing, hey, you know, this is my revenue goal, because at this revenue, at this margin, this will net me this much money for my family, and work back and work backwards from there, and then realizing what that meant from a monthly perspective, a weekly perspective, a per employee perspective, and then just got to a point where I'm looking at all these numbers on

this dashboard of understanding. You know, when I tweak this, that tweaks or understanding, it's like, hey, every 250 potential leads that come in, two of them convert. And when I went through that math, I'm like, wait, what? And it's, I mean, you're, I'm talking like, like, like someone that fills out the form online, that is like, clearly not a customer, but when you start going through that, it made me realize where I

need to focus my energy. Hmm, the other, the other thing is, what you said about, you know, creating the invoice template, you know, making, you know, being at another networking event. I have these love, hate relationships with these projects, because, you know, in my mind, and until I'm blue in the face, I will tell everyone that there is an ROI and I can't measure it, but you have to trust me. And everyone's like,

sure, I guess. And I don't know why I say because I don't even know if I believe, like, half the time, I don't know if I believe it, but, but it's important to me and the way we present ourselves, right? You know, you know, we have these booklets that we hand out. They're in black envelopes. Those black envelopes are brand like none of it, quote, unquote matters, but it matters to me, and it matters to the the experience that we're going to present. You know, just like

when you're your your full design architecture studio. It's that entire experience, right? Yeah, so that's these are the things that are important. But what I found is that I was spending a tremendous amount of time trying to do this when copy isn't my strong suit. Brand design is not my strong suit. I understand what I understood, what I wanted, but it what I was trying to do it myself. I'll give you a great example. I'm getting it next week so I could talk about it. But I created a

book, book from a project that we built. And we've We professionally shoot every project that we built once a week. So by the end of a project, I have anywhere from 50 to 70 folders of each week of construction progress for for two years since this project's been completed, it's been two and a half now I've wanted to take those and create a book, a coffee table book, for my Client. And I tried to do with a couple people. They couldn't figure out how to best do it. I

started to do it. I was like, this is like, I cannot be spending my time doing this. This is insane. And finally, I was like, You know what? I just need to find I need to delegate this, and I need to find someone. It does make sense. And I kept I asked around, and a friend of mine was like, Oh, I know a publishing company that makes books, and they actually can do this stuff. They do crazy projects where they'll print

stuff overnight for you. I reached out to him. I said, Hey, this is what I'm trying to do. And here are the here are the folders. And they wrote back, and they're like, Hey, we can have a draft on we need four days for a draft and on approval, I can have chipped out next week. I was like, Wait, did you did you see how many photos? They're like, yeah. Do you want them laid out any specific way? I'm like, just chronologically and just take out, take the ones that look the best. Like, yeah,

no problem. Four days later, I have 140 page book fully laid out every photo, and I'm and the My point here is there's going to be things like the invoice, there's going to be things like the experience and these bits and pieces of the business, but they need to be you need to delegate that and delegate it when, when it's appropriate, and focus on the core offering that that is your business, because ultimately, that's, that's what will when, when that fails, the client experience goes down.

When you don't have the book, the client experience just remains neutral. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. That's good advice. That's great advice. Yeah, that's. So don't think you need a five year plan in place outside like what Nick said, is decent, but I think decent the you need a five year plan. You just need to know where you're going. No you need to know where you are, because if you know where you are, which nobody knows where they are, you can

determine how you want to move forward. If you fully understand all of your numbers and and the implications of the decisions that you're making today, you can make a decision as to where you want to be in five years. Just know where you are now, like that to me, that's as important. You can make a decision on where you want to be, but like, understand what every how your business is impacted on a daily basis, and

how much time you're putting into your business. And I think it'll give you a pretty good indication of where you need to go. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just getting to that point myself. I finally have a bookkeeper helping me with my books. I have a financial planner that's helping me. I'm meeting with her for a second time tomorrow, so I'm finally getting the kind of

the foundational elements in place with my business. I was able to see Profit and Loss reports for the last couple of months, see where all the money is going in terms of what I'm spending it on. So that was pretty cool, and eye opening to see all that. And I need to kind of continue to build that up and spend more time kind of looking at that, and I really do want to try to figure out I have a kind of a leads tracker that a friend

gave me. I really do need to spend some time filling that out to try to see, to track where the leads are coming through, how they're passing through me, where are they coming from, because you do end up spending a lot of time going out, meeting with people, writing proposals, and then you never hear from them again, right? And I'm curious to see if, what's the follow up point? What like, you know, where did that? Is every lead that comes through your website, trash, it's, it's those things

that, like, yes, Tyler said, understanding where you are. For me, that's what, you know, what we determined is every lead that comes through our website absolutely like we're just not. It's not being we're not they're not self qualifying correctly, because we don't have the right information there. At one point, like, we were getting a tremendous amount of people just

thinking that they were a good client. And it was because we, we, we we didn't narrow down the the information appropriately interesting, but to your point, you know, or in answer, Tyler's point, like understanding where you're at and understanding, you know, the stuff that is moving right, the leads coming in. You know, for me, I'm, I don't have a great system for lead tracking. I have one that works for me. It's something that's on my little like forever to do list of create something that's

better and more automated. But right now it works. I have a list of active opportunities, and I will ruthlessly follow up with you until you tell me No, and that's and I have found that that has been the best thing that I ever implemented, because I would have clients that I wouldn't talk to for months and months, some didn't even respond to me, and finally, at one point, they were like, Hey, sorry, it's been so long, but now, like, we're now, we're ready, and it's only because I

would just follow up them. They would tell me, Hey, reach out in a couple weeks. All right, no problem moving that two weeks, and I will follow up with you two weeks from this moment, right now, and just and just understand and offer and say, Hey, seems like you're not interested. But if there's anything I could do to help this process, let me know. And I have one client say, you know, I was waiting on the architect. I'm not getting anywhere with them. Maybe you can help. Yeah, no

problem. Let me, let me have a conversation with the architect. Maybe, maybe the architect doesn't, isn't getting the information they need. And I can, I can be that person that helps get it right. Yeah, that's super interesting. That's super I've had a couple of experiences like that too, where people have kind of gone dark, and I've sent a follow up email as like a Hail Mary, and then all of a sudden they surface. I'm kind of starting on

a project like that right now. But yeah, I think it's all about following up, being top of mind for people. And you know, again, like respecting that life does get busy, right? Yeah, around the holidays and stuff like that. People's life gets super crazy, and sometimes their I think their intention is probably to get back to you, but something else just kind of

keeps getting in their way. So if you can get back to the top of their inbox, you know, you have definitely a better shot at kind of closing the deal, or, you know, getting to that next step. Yeah, yeah. Top of Mind, lessons learned again, from building your own place or or

working on your own projects. It's like, even sometimes making decisions with my wife where I'm like, Well, now I know why a client doesn't respond to me, because I'm 10 feet from her and I can't get the answer to the question, because something else comes up. So like, it's not just client ignorance, it's that life's extremely chaotic, and I should probably um. To have a little bit more empathy for the situation that everyone's in.

Absolutely, absolutely. I could say one thing, like in the decision making with our project and my wife, when we started our project, I was like, I know every single product that's going into this house. And guess what she said, Oh, yeah, yeah. And that is where I learned compromise. Dude, Matt, we so we are starting our renovation, like actually starting in just a few weeks now, and when we started this project, we my wife is like, I literally don't care

about anything. I just want this light fixture somewhere in the house, and I want a speed Queen washer, dryer, and I think there might have been, like, one other thing. I'm like, great. And I just ran with it. And we were in finishes, selections and renderings are coming together. And then we had a conversation about, she's like, I don't like any of that. And I was like, I was like, I thought you should just do whatever you want. I'm like, nope, nope, no, no. This is like, I'm not gonna just do

whatever I want. I thought, yeah, I thought we're on the same page, like, I would never do that. I'm like, Well, what would you do? She's like, I don't have the capacity to think about it right now. Okay. I'm like, All right, let's put a pin in that. And are you good with the layout? And then that was wrong. So I was like, All right, you tell me, we'll fix the

layout. Now we get the layout done. And I'm like, All right, at some point we need to carve out a weekend and chat about what we think this is going to look like, because I have a very clear picture in my mind. But my wife's also very practical. So she'll be like, you know, whatever cleans the easiest. I'm like, Yeah, kind of want my house to look like it belongs in a magazine all the time. She goes. You have four children under the age of 10. You're not, you're not living in a magazine house.

Could I do it for the photos? But yeah, compromise is, yes, a great lesson learned. Yes, absolutely, something we all need to learn a lot about in life. Yeah, we appreciate your time coming and hanging and obviously you have a lot going on, a lot on your plate. It sounds like it's heading in the right direction. Yeah, I think so I'm very excited. There's a lot coming up for 2025 I got a lot of exciting projects ahead, a lot of cool

stuff. I'm very pumped for the year ahead. It's gonna be a busy year for sure, but a lot of fun stuff, lot a lot of fun stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's really neat even, and I think it comes probably with experience and maturity, but just from the outset of starting your business to create a brand that leaves the door open to multiple opportunities, I think is really cool and a really good takeaway for a lot of people that I think most people probably don't do because, you know, a lot of

times their business is their identity. It's their namesake, and they're not necessarily creating it to leave a door open for collaboration. So I think that that's, that's really cool. And hats off to you for that. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I, I knew from day one that I didn't want to be just kind of, I was gonna call it Argan Arnold architects. But you know, that just did not seem very enticing when you launched the Arnold and I will, I didn't even mention

this. I genius. I read it. I've read your post. And I was like, Dude, you know, so good, like, from, from so many, like, just for so many reasons. I think it's just, it's very well done. I'll leave it. Thank you very well. Thank you. I had a great partner that helped me design agency Bell. She was a kind of branding partner. She did a great job, and she really kind of challenged me and pushed me in a

lot of directions. And, you know, asked me a lot of questions that I wasn't prepared to answer at first, and it took me a little bit of time to kind of really think about it and how I wanted to approach some of this. So I, you know, I was grateful to be pushed outside of my comfort zone, because it's certainly easiest just to run down the path that I knew. And, you know, even starting all this out, actually, I started

building my own website. Like every architect can brand themselves and build their own website, I very quickly was like, Well, I don't, I can't do this. I have no idea what I'm doing. Good on you for realizing that, yeah, and so I'm glad I brought in a partner, and I'm super excited about it. What's a good website for everyone to check you out? It's Arnold ann.com A R, N, O, L, D, A N, d.com, there we go. I appreciate you, man. I'll see you soon. I'll hit you up for coffee.

All right. I love it. Yeah. Thank you so much. Wait to hear the next one. Sweet Matt's good dude, you. I had met him when he was at his scene, and then we've been trying to find a project together since he left. But yeah, it's got to be so hard to be with the business for 14 years and then yeah, like, Hey, listen, either to go elsewhere or start your own thing, especially you have a good relationship with them. That's like breaking up with a significant other that you've,

you know, known for 1415, years. That's a substantial amount of time, but really cool to see where he's going. I like, I like his model a lot. I think that you know that does not come without experience and a lot of maturation with yourself. So super cool. Make sure you head over to monocrossman.co sign up for our newsletter. We send out a weekly email a little bit behind the scenes, what we got working on, what we're working on, and sharing a little bit more in depth about what's going on in

my business. But the only way you can get that content is by signing up for the newsletter. And if you guys want to join us live in Omaha, Nebraska, June 19 through the 23rd you got to register contractor coalition summit.com. Myself, Tyler, Brad Levitt, Morgan, Molitor, as well as Mark Williams, who recently joined the contractor coalition Summit. We're going to be there, and there's a bunch of stuff going on, but head over the

website. Check it out. If you have questions, reach out to any of us happy to answer, and if we're chatting through DM, I can get you a discount code to see you in Omaha until next week, guys, we'll see you then.