#359 Tim McNamara Talks About Working Smarter, Not Harder

But were they like business mistakes, like customer relation mistakes, just mistakes on the projects they were getting swept under the rug operational like the biggest mistakes that were really being made. It was always like a push to grow rather than a push to refine the process and get really good at doing something. And so, yeah, it was always like one step forward, two steps back.

Welcome to this week's modern craftsman podcast, where today we are joined by Tim McNamara, a builder, business owner and founder of the young craftsman foundation. Tim's story is one of grit, clarity and purpose, from growing up around real estate and carpentry to building a values driven construction business. Tim shares how he's navigated the trades with integrity, built the team from the ground up, and why he's on a mission to reshape how young people see careers in the

trades. This conversation is about doing the work, owning your worth, and building a life with intention. This podcast is brought to you by Anderson windows. So we've recently had the opportunity to get a behind the scenes look at a stunning condo project by Mullen building in Conway, New Hampshire,

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not necessarily the path that you're on now. Do you feel that like your upbringing impacted you in a way that you wanted to get involved with building homes and residential? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I didn't when I was like 12 years old, say, I want to be in construction. I want to, you know, I actually, when I was 20, from like 18 to like 22 I wanted to be a home inspector. Yeah, I thought it was a great gig. But the exposure at a young age definitely helped like

significantly. And that's one of the things that I talk about when I am talking about the foundation is, you know, exposure at a young age, and actually knowing about the career path that's there, that the the option is there, and knowing that you can make money in it and be paid well and have a good career. So that definitely shaped it. And, you know, it's, it's also helped shape my practicality as a as a bill. Or modeler. You know when, when you're brought up by a home

inspector, they've seen a lot of things over the years. You know? They know, you know, sometimes we get, you know, lost in these wall assemblies and flashing details and all kinds of stuff. And you know, where I am, we're inland, right? And if you've got two foot overhangs in your window is basically slammed up, you know, within six inches of that overhang, it almost doesn't matter.

I was just talking to Nick about that with like, the way that the industry is going, and the stretch energy codes and the exterior insulation, and everything that we're doing, like even the people who are trying to execute it really well are running into trouble and struggling with it. And I'm like thinking big picture, what we're really trying to do with it, and how hard and difficult and like the impact of the mistakes that come along with that are so much greater as we build these houses

tighter. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't build houses tighter, but I'm like, just what you're saying sometimes. Like, does it need, does it need to be this complicated for everyone? And like, are we? Are we setting us ourselves up for failure, like, I think, in theory and on paper, it all works, but from a practical standpoint, like some of the shit and the sequencing and the coordination and, like, the mixing of materials that hasn't really been done on a large scale before, I feel like

it's gonna create a lot of issues. Yeah, so I'll try not to go down too far of a wormhole here. But the good news for us in Massachusetts is we actually just got some relief in our code in the last month, which was like huge news, we had these codes in place that basically, if you were doing 1000 square foot addition or more, or doing a full gut remodel or remodeling more than 50% of your existing square footage.

There's all these triggers. Essentially, you had to bring up your entire house to energy code, new construction energy code. So do you guys use HERS rating where you are? We do, but like, we don't do a ton of the stretch codes just being put into place near us. And like we don't even do blower doors or anything like that down near us. So it's even though we're not that far south of you, it's not quite as stringent, right? So if you're at all familiar with HERS

rating, you know the what? The HERS rating number that we have to hit up here in Massachusetts for a new construction home is basically 42 um, which is, it's tight, right? Yeah, they were requiring homes that were putting on 1000 square foot addition to bring up their entire home to a HERS rating 42 it was just out of control. So impractical. And we had some good building inspectors and commissioners that were, you

know, working with people to get code variances. And I think so many code variances just kept happening and kept happening. There was so much pushback from homeowners and code officials and people and and a lot of what you're just saying is like, this is happening so fast we don't know how to adopt it properly. You know, you're asking us to do things that are gonna probably result in catastrophic, you know, failures years down the road because the lack of education that's come along with

the implementation of the code. So fortunately, they scaled that back recently, and now I think the number is like 55 Yeah, which is essentially like your do some basic air sealing, fill the cavity and be mindful, which is, you know, that's pretty much my general feeling about, you know, how I can serve my market. Like, I like, I said I'm not in the Boston Market. Yeah, you know, I mean, I feel like I'm right in that same, that

same page as you like, I like, I have a specific customer. I want to be doing things a certain way, but there's just there. There's a point of no return, especially working on these older homes. And when you have a client who doesn't necessarily have the like they they have, they need a functional upgrade, right? And then to require them to renovate their entire existing home, or bring their entire home up to a standard that's unrealistic, just to me, that that opens the door to

like, well, we're not gonna be able to do this. Let's kind of do this behind closed doors, which is what we're trying to avoid. I just feel like so much is being put in place right now, that if big picture is energy preservation and using less natural resources and being more energy conscientious, that like the amount of work that we're having to put in place and tapes and sealants and foams and everything else, and.

The production and the manufacturing of that, like, are we really offsetting the energy costs that we're losing through all the manufacturing and production and layering of shit that we're doing, like, over the lifespan of a house? There's probably an argument there. So I'm definitely of the same mindset as you were, like, I like things to be done well in a certain way, but even, like, we're building our own house.

And it's like, sometimes good enough is going to be good enough for a lot of people, and not necessarily, like, the top 10% of client base across the country. Yeah, I'm going to try and not get pulled in too deep to that one because I'll end up on that conversation for a while, I definitely don't sell build science but I mean you have to be competent and I mean

I'm 33 years old. You know, I've got a long stretch ahead of me here if you're not moving with stuff you don't know what's going on, then you know, this this industry will spit you up Yeah, chew you up and spit you out you know, so So you did get

into you were a home inspector for a little bit right? Yeah I followed my dad around for a little bit basically he said to me if you want to be a home inspector you got to go swing a hammer for at least a couple years and I was like, okay, so I went and did it for a few years, and, you know, started bugging them, and I was like, Can I, can I get in here? And it was, I think I during that process, you know, I always had a little

bit of the entrepreneurial, you know, spirit, for sure. But during that process, we were trying to figure out ways for me to get involved in the business. And so it took a lot of structuring and me kind of working with them to figure out how, you know, they could go from just one home inspector to now two, which, I mean, you know what it's like. You're, you're one guy, do you have a helper

sometimes? Yeah, but it's still, it's the same principle, like you're trying to create two self employed people under one business, right? Like, it's not like you're just an employee right? So yeah, I mean, I started to learn a lot about business and business development and stuff in that time, and really had to apply myself, but along that process, I just kind of kept growing in construction and there just

became a point where I was like, hey, you know, what? I'm actually pretty good at this Yeah, I almost want to just give this a try. You know, I kind of owe it to myself to give this a try. To You know, stick around in construction and see if I actually can grow a business and you were like, early 20s at that point, yeah. So I think by the when I went out on my own think I was probably like 25 Yeah, right around the time that I went out on my own Yeah? So yeah, I think I actually I

started working for a guy in lemon, sir. I was just delivering cabinets, actually, and I was like, Hey, do you think I can get on, like, some demo or something, get some hammers, some sledgehammers in my hands? Can I, can I start knocking some stuff out here? And I think I was, like, 19 at that time. And then, funny enough, you know, after talking to my parents about how I wanted to get into the business, and my dad told me I got to swing a

hammer. They actually were buying me a tool tote in Home Depot, and they were just in the aisle, and they just stopped, and they were talking to this guy and like, hey, what's a good tool bag that I can get my son? And they start talking a little bit, and he's like, Oh, I'm actually looking to hire a grunt, you know, something like that. And I emailed the guy, followed up with him, he gave me an interview, and that was the first person that I really went and worked for, like, full time

that gave me a really good background. Yeah. JF, bass net out of Littleton mass, and they were at high end, and they were actually really far ahead of the curve with all the build

science. It was a bigger company. No, they were actually like two crews of like three, two crews of three, or sometimes like three crews of two, yeah, medium sized in house, designer, estimator, you know, involved owner, yeah, I feel like that's a really great introduction to the business as well, because you're not, like, right beside the owner all the time. They're big enough that they can probably afford to pay you, like, a decent rate. There's a little bit of room for

growth there. But you're also not so huge that you're just a number and have, like, days where you're not doing crap. I think that in an ideal world, that's a that's somewhat of a perfect company to really transition into. I just feel like that's also a really difficult model to live because, again, you're on the in between where it's like you're getting a higher overhead that you need to support. You're not necessarily doing the volume. So I feel like there's not.

Too many of those companies, those type of companies around. It's funny that you say that, because that's pretty much the world that I'm living in right now that is about, that's about where I operate right now. But I'll get into that. But to kind of jump back to, you know, my experience with them. It was, I mean, it was a great experience. They were a high end company. They were ahead of the curve with doing the build science stuff. And so I was hand

air sealing. I mean, I remember we were in a meeting one time, and we were doing all these taping and caulking windows and stuff. And I and I said to him, like, I don't even understand what the point of this is. I look down and I can see right through the framing, and I'm looking at the daylight outside. I mean, the air is just going to go right through there. And my boss looks at me, and he's like, that's a great point. We're going to start, we're going to start caulking all the double

frame, double plates that come together and everything. I'm like, Oh my gosh, so but they gave me a great basis for how to apply my skills. And I mean, I learned so many great things, and I went out on my own pretty young, with not enough experience, and I wouldn't change it, and I'd probably encourage everybody you know to try and do the same thing, take a risk while you're

young, and go out and make a bunch of mistakes, right? But at the end of the day, I did get to see the right way that it was done from a really good company. And I appreciate that experience to this day. It's just helped me so much. You know, if your first experience is is working for a guy that's just flying by night currently, I mean, constantly, boy, I mean, you can just learn a lot of bad habits. Yeah, it's tough. And I feel like that's a

lot of what our what our industry is. So you went out on your own around 25 and then you mentioned that you shut down during COVID. You want to dig into that some. Yeah. So right at the beginning of COVID, I was still a one man show, and I was teetering. I'm like, should I just pack it in and go work for my dad? But as you can imagine, that's when he got really slow too. Yeah, you know, home sales actually started to increase, but it was

at the time where everybody was waving home inspections. I mean, it was just so competitive, right? And so I'm like, Well, I don't know if I can sustain this. I think I'm gonna go work for somebody else. And I did for about eight months. And there's a few things that I took away from that experience. One is that I'm not made to work for other people. I I'm just, I'm a type A guy, you know, and I don't need much motivation from anybody else. I'm a self motivated person,

yeah, right. Just tell me the task, and I'm going to figure it out, and I'm going to get it done, and I'm probably going to get it done better than 99% of other people are going to get it done. And so if you're telling me how to do it, and then telling me I should be doing more, you know, something along those lines, I'm just like, Get out of my face. You don't know how good you have it, you know?

So that was generally, you know, that was part of it. The other part is that I saw the way, there were good things that I took out of it, right? I saw the way that they were running their business. They're a roofing company. And, I mean, I think a lot of people have seen, like, the the roofing gold mine, kind of roofing gold rush. That's that's happened, yeah, out

there. And I'm just watching the way that they're operating, and a lot of mistakes being made, and just somehow, just constantly moving forward and I and I think I just was able to step back and look at everything and analyze how I was operating and saying, Wow, I was only making a couple of real minor mistakes. I wasn't making a lot of mistakes. And what, why did you go, I don't mean to interrupt you, why did you pick a roofing company when you went back to work? Like, what was the

mentality there? You know, I think it's something that just kind of fell on my lap. It's not that I was really looking for it. Somebody had connected us. And, you know, I like to the guy. He was really passionate, and, you know, he was a go getter and everything. It didn't, it didn't really work out. I didn't end up aligning with that person. And, you know, it kind of goes into the whole, like, 10x mentality and the manifesting and like all that stuff. It's just like, I'm

a real simple guy, and I like goals, right? You have a goal, this is what you need to get done. And there's solutions to get the goal done, period. Like, I don't need manifestation, I don't need exterior motivation, you know, any type of external motivation to get that thing done. It's just solutions. There's there's ways to get it done. There isn't. And, like, manifesting, to me, is kind of like a, like, a savvy way of lying, yeah, to people about

having a hype, man, yeah, yeah. What type of mistakes were being made that, like, really caught your eye and stood out to you? Um, I mean, I don't want to, like, I don't want to, like, dump on this, no, but were they like, business mistakes, like customer relation mistakes, just mistakes on the projects. They were getting swept under the rug. Operational ideas, like, like, the biggest mistakes that were really being made. It was always like a push to grow rather than a push to refine the

process, yeah, and get really good at doing something. And so, yeah, it was always like, one step forward, two steps back, yeah. And just constantly covering stuff up, like, it's like the classic, the classic case. And I feel like I talk about all the time where people aren't necessarily making money with their existing model. So in their head they just say, well, we just need to do more work. Like, if we increase our sales volume, if we grow, if we land more projects, if we land this

project, things will change. And it's like it's flawed from the get go, like you have to actually address what's going on. Adding more to your plate is just going to make more of those mistakes, you know, come to a head and expose more of the issues within your existing model. Yeah. And I think the a lot of the way, I think they were making money, it was just that, you know, they were, they were expensive, like, really

expensive, you know. And so that's part of, like, the roofing Gold Rush that's out there, is, it's all about sales, and not necessarily, like, delivering on an excellent product, yeah, but there was a lot of just extracting value from people to

a lot of really long hours, you know. And I really care. I mean, I, I would work 60 hour weeks, like, no problem, you know, managing projects, yeah, I was, I was supervising, yeah, kind of production and so, like, I'm just the type of guy that I'll just run through a wall, you know, it's, you don't have to ask me, you know, I maybe that's discipline from, like, growing up, or, you know, playing sports and things like that, and that competitiveness. It's like, oh, you told me that this is the

job. So, like, I have to get it done period. You know, there's, like, no excuses. You're bought in. I feel like, if you're the type of person, or as soon as you're bought in and you believe in it, and you're owning it, it's like, I'm gonna go to great lengths to get this kind of get it done as well as I can, right? And I mean, after six months, you can look back and be like, Wow, I was thinking I was gonna work like, 45 hours or something

like that. And I'm working 60 exactly, and so that kind of finally brought me back around. So it's like, whoa. I should have been giving myself this much of a commitment. You know, I there's things here that I can take away from this experience. And you know, since then, you know that also corresponded with having my second child around that time, you know, it was, like, it was a serious talk with my wife. I'm like, I think that I want to move on from this,

yeah, and like she was, like, Sure, no problem. We'll figure it out, you know? Because, like she was, she was all done with the the long nights and all that stuff too, you know? Yeah, there was just no end in sight. So that's what I decided to kind of go back out on my own. It was, like, right at the beginning of 2021, and it's just the market, like, picked back up at that point before, yeah. So it wasn't like you were jumping into like, a,

you know, an empty market. So you started that definitely played the factor into it is that I was jumping back into, like, the hottest market, yeah, a really fast growing market. So did you hire immediately because you were a one man show prior to prior to this, then you went to work for somebody else, and then, obviously, like, you could have hopped back in as one man show. But did you end up hiring immediately? Yeah, I did. I called up one of my buddies

probably within like, three months, I want to say, yeah. I called up one of my buddies that I knew from high school that had gone similar path to me, worked for a great guy. And I was just like, hey, I can do this, man. Like, just come with me. Come with me. Like, let's just do it. And he's like, I'm in man. And so it just kind of

evolved from there. And you know, I made a bunch of mistakes along the way, but I will say, looking back on it, I do feel like there's a lot of things that I did the right way that I would recommend to other people to help navigate getting from that one to two to, like, three to four person type crew, which it's interesting that you bring up the like, like six man crew, kind of no man land, because I like it. I really like it. It's manageable for me. I don't really. Have

much back end help. I pretty much have a couple site supervisors. I'm actually looking to push a guy up and become a production manager to free up a little bit more of my time on the back end. But I like, I like that model. It is, it is doable, but to jump back to getting from that, you know, One Man, Two man, type of crew. The big thing that I always recommend to people is

just start subcontracting stuff. And there's this, like, huge fear of, like, Yeah, but they hired me, like, they hired me, and I have to perform the work. And so, like, when I hired like, this other guy that, like, comes in, they're like, Who's this guy?

And it is, like, because a lot of the time when you're that one man crew, you're not creating, like, a ton of leads, you know, outside of word of mouth, a lot of it's like, word of mouth and it's this, you know, family member, friend or so and so and so they're like, I hired him, and like, these three other guys came in and were like, working on my house the whole time, and it's like, you just got to get over that fear of that, yeah,

that they're hiring a GC, they're not hiring you. And I think you can communicate that too, and it it helps get over that fear. But you can increase your revenue by doing that, and then you can take back some of the stuff that you're subcontracting by employing somebody full time. And I think that's one of the best ways to go from like one or two guys into like three, you know, four guys is yeah, you got to

leverage subcontractors. Yeah. I mean, you're drumming up enough work and creating the lead flow at that point to substantiate if you want to a bigger in house business, or you can continue to sell and then just have your your in house help manage those

people. It's interesting because I actually did it reverse from that, like I went from having in house employees and being stressed with drumming up enough work to keep multiple guys busy, like up to three guys and myself at one point, you know, running multiple projects at a time, thinking that was that was the

answer to growth. And it wasn't until I had some health issues, and then, like, we had some family health issues, that I was like, I get a back off from this, I'm going to get rid of all my employees, I'll have part time help, and then I'm going to hire subcontractors, and then I'm going to basically structure

me getting paid to manage them. And that is what you're talking about, where it's like now, if I want to bring more people in house, I'm generating enough work to cover that, but I also don't have the stress of needing to put food on the table for other people, but it gave me an in to be able to grow that as much as I want. Personally, with what I have going on, it doesn't make sense to grow that bigger, because I just have to put more work in place, and I have other irons in the fire, but yeah,

like, that's a great way to do it. You just have to make sure that, like, you're actually getting paid to manage those people, and not just say, Hey, I'm subcontracting and I'm putting 15 20% on top of it, because you won't make any money that way. Like, you have to structure it as a business, just like, hey, we're going to self perform with this crew, and then this crew is going to manage subcontractors, and you have a

super on that job, like you're paying that super rate. I think where you get in trouble is when you're the owner of the company and you're managing subs, and you're not paying yourself that rate. Yep, I Tyler, what was, was the timeline for that for you, when you went from having employees, like, how long did you have employees? And then decide to scale it back,

probably 10 years. And it went from, like, just me, same thing as you, hiring a friend, hiring a brother, and then it went to up to three guys running two jobs, you know, multiple vans. And then after COVID, I ended up getting sick twice from working so much, and then my father in law got sick, and I was like, there's just too much going on. Life's too short right now. Like, I'm gonna start over. So that was probably was a big

reset for a lot of people. Like it just it allowed so many people to step back and, like, rethink about how they want to do things, yeah, yeah. That's that's interesting. I want to ask that question because, you know, all I've known is good times is the reality. I'm 33 years old. I mean, I bought my first house in like, 2016 I mean, the bottom of the market was, like 2012 like I was already feverishly look, I was, like, feverishly looking for real estate when I was, like 19, even though I

could never buy anything. But you look back and it's like, oh my gosh, how cheap was everything then. But our market, other than, like, that hiccup with COVID, has just been a total rocket ship ever since, yeah, and so you. Go ahead. I mean, I do like to say, you know, everybody's a genius in a bull market. And you know, I mean that about myself too. Maybe I'm doing the right thing, but, you know, let's see what happens when things start to taper off. We might be seeing

a little bit of that right now. Yeah, I feel like I'm in a good position, but everybody has all the answers when the market does nothing but go up. Hey guys, quick break from the podcast. Headed over to modern craftsman.co scroll all the way to the bottom and sign up for our newsletter. You're gonna get a weekly email from us, but you're also gonna get some episode recaps with actionable items that can help you improve your business and be

more profitable. Now back to the podcast. Yeah, no, I slowed down as things got bigger, bigger and busier, and to be honest, yeah, the better decisions that I made, from like, a personal standpoint, a business standpoint, I was able to take a model that like was working, quote, unquote, but like wasn't dialed because it was the, it was the I'm gonna grow. I need more I need to make more money. We'll put another person. You're

just pulling percentages off of people. And I didn't really have it dialed and I didn't have, like, the network and the confidence to sell the actual appropriate rate for people working for me. So like, by the time I went back to just working by myself and then bringing in part time help, I understood all of that, and I went back into it like, oh, wow, I can make a rate

for myself and anyone who's working for me. I know that I'm covering and I just approached business in a different way, that I was able to put less sales volume in work, but just my margins went way up, and my life was better, and I had free time, and I could spend time with my family, and I wasn't working myself into the hospital where I was, like, this works for me. And like, it works. I could be busier if the phone

stops ringing, I'm still gonna be okay. And like, for me, that's just what works from a lifestyle perspective, like, from a business perspective, maybe not the smartest thing in the world, but I'm protected, and I feel like I'm isolating myself from a lot of market fluctuations, and like you talk about in the survey that we sent you, like I'm not looking to create this like 10x culture and grow to be the Next multi millionaire and have all answers for every aspect of business. I

just want a decent lifestyle. Yeah, that's like, a great way to put it. And I might have even said this in the questionnaire. It's like, I think we need more guys like me and you Tyler, and that's part of what our our industry maybe doesn't show enough of is that you can just do some ordinary things, extraordinarily well, yeah, and just be really consistent for a long time. And it's going to take you a long ways, you know, some some integrity, some consistency is, you know, really

what can be the backbone for a lot of companies. And I think if more people knew that, that we'd probably have more people coming into the trades. And yeah, it's, it's funny, because when I I guess it was a couple of years ago where you know everyone, everyone that I surround myself with, and more business minded people who are more concerned on growing the business more than the process and the product, and that there's not a right or wrong there, but like, I've realized that at heart,

this is who I am. Like, I like being on the tool belt. I like managing jobs. I like being on every project. Like, I don't want to build full houses. I don't want to build multiple houses a year like I like being a part of everything. And I, I

just decided to own that and be like, confident in that. And I, my goal was to be able to advocate and communicate and really just stand up and celebrate like the smaller contractors, the owner operators, the guys and girls who are running like, you know, a two to six, seven person business and just doing good

work. And I want them to be able to understand that like anywhere in that range, you can structure your business well enough in any market to do okay for yourself and not have to work 100 hours a week. And like, you'll make good money. And, yeah, you're not going to be rich. But like, to me, that's the bulk of who we're speaking to, and the bulk of people who want to get into the trades. And you see so many people where it's like, you know, we, we, we sold a $300,000 bathroom. I'm like, Well, I

couldn't even sell a $300,000 edition for a long time. So yep, like just to be able to speak to those people and have a realistic perspective and really champion that model and that effort over the past few years is something that I've I've consciously owned and celebrated, and you. Uh, helped coach people on that model that like, it's a doable model, like, you have three kids, right? You have five, six

people working for you. Hopefully, you're at a point where you're making money, you're not worried about your next paycheck, and you're not like, so stretched for time and money that you can enjoy life. Yeah, that's exactly where I'm at. I don't know if I can say it much better than the way that you just explained it. And that's exactly I'm, like, a champion for that too, you know. And I appreciate it so much that we get that contrast between you and Nick, who are, like two

totally different people, right? Yeah, on this podcast, and you get both sides of it. And, I mean, it's great, you know, to get Nick's perspective on stuff too, because there's so many things that I pull, you know, from that too. It's just, it's just easier to just, like, take like, little things here and there and go, I can implement that on a much smaller scale.

Yeah, that's what people don't understand, either that like it like you as a successful business owner with five employees, or me with like, a half an employee, you can still implement a lot of those strategies and processes that those bigger people are playing with. And there's no like, there's no reason that you can. And I think understanding that like, you need to give and take, and you need like, not

everything that I do is going to work for you. Not everything that Nick does is gonna work for me, but just being able to take those things and implement them, test them in your market and

like, if they make your life easier, why not use them? Yeah, I think some of the big things, you know, I was before I started listening to you guys, I had, I had stumbled over Sean Van Dyke, who had talked a lot about pre construction, and, you know, I started implementing a process, and then I've refined it a little bit through listening to you guys as well. And, like, that's that's been huge, you know, I've been doing pre construction for, I don't

know, two, two and a half years, something like that. And that's a huge part of my business, you know, I know you guys talk about it a lot, but you know, if you're not doing it, it's just like you got to find a way to start at the at the minimum, start screening your customers and learning how to back, you know, create a backlog of leads so that you can start saying no more, yeah, because that's how you ultimately get to the next thing, which,

you know, I you guys have talked about quite a bit too, is ideal customer, you know, and I've really adopted that a little bit more over the last year or so. Is the ideal job versus the ideal customer? Yep, and I'm, you know, I'm running two jobs right now. One's like an adu. We're converting a garage to an adu and a small addition, and we're converting a single family to a two family right

now. Those are not my ideal jobs like but we are working with our ideal customers who value what we do, who value our process, that are willing to invest in a little bit more quality than just bottom of the barrel type work, yeah, and know that the work is going to get done on time at the price that we talked about. You know, when those leads came in, were you at the point? We were like, all right, I want to start paying more attention to client profile rather than job profile.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's funny. I think both the jobs that I'm doing right now, at one point, I had said no to both of them, yeah, because at that time, I was definitely still thinking a little bit more about ideal job. But the more that I just talked to those customers, the more that I realized that these people value what we're doing, you know, let's spend a little bit of time together. You know, my process

is, is typically a little bit something like this. First off, we're fixed price, right with allowances, and I think you're kind of similar to that I used I used to be I went when I around COVID. I went to time of material, but it in like at this point. Now, if I were to go to fixed cost, it wouldn't be any different than what I do now. It's the same thing. Is right? You can, you could tell

me a bit. I know, I know now that, like, I just need to track my costs, daily, weekly, bi weekly, and then fixed cost works. But if you don't track your costs real time, like, fixed costs can bite you, right? So, I mean, I generally, know my market, we're not doing custom high end where there's, like, this huge Delta on, like, what you can end up with, right? So, you know, I can generally, you know, on a first phone call with a customer. Hop on the phone with them. They're looking to do

an addition. We'll take a look at the GIS map, see what their setbacks are, see if it's even plausible. Because right away, what I'm doing is I'm going down the list, and I'm trying to find ways to disqualify the job as soon as possible so I can save myself as much time as possible, right? You know, if we get through those. You know, five, six things that we're looking at, you know, eventually, you know, the budget question is coming up, you know,

like, what? What's your budget for this project? And it's like, sometimes you just sit there kind of quietly and just wait. And some people are just totally honest with you, you know, what

they have for a budget? Some people are like, well, we're kind of just shopping, and I try and play the game a little bit, it's like, look, here's here's the amount of information that I have right now at this time, you know, I can probably spit out a number that's plus or minus 15% you know, that will get most people to where they need to be for a job like this, right? If we're keeping things reasonable, you know, we're just doing hardwood floors, blue board and plaster, you know, it's a living

room or something like that. There's only so many ways that you can do a living. Yeah, right? The chances are I can probably give you a price that's plus or minus 15% over the phone. If we're off by 50% there's not a job, right? If we're off by 15 even 20% you know, there's probably something to look into, right? So, at that point, you know, we tell them a little bit more about pre construction, and that's when we

book a site evaluation. And we're still working for free. At this point, we'll come out, we'll look at the property, we'll gather information at the property, but at least we've already talked about budget, right? And I'll try and get to, you know, like a plus or minus 10%

number, essentially, is, is kind of what I call it. It's, it's a free estimate, but it's really like a 20 to 30 minute, like very brief Scope of Work total number with no allowances, based on XYZ, you know, is a lot of that based on just previous work that you've done, to give you, like, a gut check number, yeah, yeah, exactly it, you know, I'll look back at previous projects, you know, some per square foot numbers. To some extent, I do use some software, but no, like,

crazy CRM or anything. But, you know, I do have a bunch of inputs for, like, square foot prices and stuff like that, to get us to somewhere that, you know, I can take about a half an hour. I've got a really warm lead at this point, and, you know, I've got a plausible project at that point is when, you know, it's like, Okay, I think we can come in around this number, plus or minus 10% you know, if that's in your budget, and you feel like we're the right person for you, you know,

you've seen our portfolio of work. We've got, you know, customers who will let you walk through their house, you know. And you know, speak kindly about us. You probably know two or three people, because we don't really travel more than 2030, minutes. You probably know a few people that we know. And if we're the right guy for you, let's, let's jump into pre construction. If that number doesn't align for you, then there's no sense in building plans for this project. Yeah, right, sure.

So, yeah, we build the plans with them. We we put together full specifications for the project. You know, detailed scope of work, but at the end of it, we are fixed price with allowances for the couple things that we can't select, countertops, you know, maybe some fixtures, light fixtures, door knobs, things like that. Sure. And how many jobs are you currently? Are you doing? Like,

two jobs at a time, three jobs at a time? Yeah, our kind of like, our place that I like to be is, you know, something like a between a two and $400,000 job that I can send my guys to for, you know, somewhere between three and five months, yeah,

something like that. And then when we get contractor heavy, when we start getting into insulation, blue board and plaster and stuff like that, we're usually filling in with, like, a deck, maybe a roof, you know, a couple smaller jobs that we can knock out in, like a couple weeks, wrap up and get back to trimming the place out. Yeah, pretty much self performed trim and GC were kind of like the glue between all the trades, which is probably where you find yourself a lot of the time too.

It's probably exactly what you do. So how do you balance like with that model, right? You you're leaving the door open if you need to self perform and keep your your staff busy. But there's probably times where it's like, we need to sub this because we need to get something out. How do you balance that with your subcontractor pool, where it's like, hey, some jobs we might be handling this. Some jobs we're gonna need your help.

I mean, I just, I have good relationships with subs. I think it's as simple as that is, you know, you're honest with people. You know, I'm on the phone with a lot of people, a lot, you know, talking about how to improve, how to be better. You know, it's like, it's a community of people, you know, they're not just subs that that just show up, that I don't know, that I just cut a check to, you know, we're talking a lot of the time, and so, yeah, they don't get every single job. Sometimes

we self perform, sometimes we sub it out. But, I mean, at the end of the day, we got to pay our bills, and my first priority is, you know, putting money in the pockets. My employees and take care of them and their family. So yeah,

comes first and foremost. Anything. Do you think that when you started hiring employees, like post COVID, and started building more of, you know, a company, and became a business owner, that that really gave you, like, the insight as far as leadership goes and like, how to structure leadership and how to lead people where it's not just you it's not just you and one person anymore, now, you're navigating you know, being a leader for your clients being a leader for

your subcontractors and your your team internally, um I don't know, I think I've always kind of been like a leader it's kind of like a natural trait. You know, when you're like, seven and you break off into groups and in school, you know, it's like, somebody's got to take the lead. It's like, That's me. I'm just kind of that guy. I just, you know, naturally take the lead on things. So that's kind of always been there for me.

But when you get older and people have personalities, you definitely got to know how to manage personalities, manage people, and not everybody's the same. You know, everybody gets frustrated dealing with customers. Sometimes that's that can always be a challenge, but that's why we put emphasis on ideal customer. You know, I'll never forget the time that I missed, you know, a red flag from a customer, and it's, it's my only bad Google

review that I have. And I mean, we put out a totally kick ass project for them, it's just, like, just unreasonable customer, and I had missed a red flag when I was there looking at their project, and she's like, we've had so many contractors and we've been screwed over by everyone, and I'm just like, oh, okay, yeah. I mean, I could see, yeah. I mean, if we don't do it that way, we might you know, thinking that I can be the person that's going to this, yeah, save you, yeah, I can. I'm

that guy. We're that good. We can definitely do this. No, it wasn't. It was just like, it was, like, every little thing was like a disaster. And at the end of it, I mean, it was a gorgeous product that you know, they gave us, like, a one star review for. And it was just like, Okay, if you know, if you wanted to leave a four star I understand, you know, you

weren't boiled throughout the process. But one, star I mean, you've got a totally, you know, totally new sided house, new roof, new bathroom, new countertops, like, it all looks great. I mean, it's like what you were talking about earlier, where even you have people who are going to be upset when you don't show up to the job, right? Or, like you, you sold this job,

and now you're subcontracting it out. And like, typically, if you, if you execute, or you've aligned expectations from the outset, it doesn't matter who does the work, how it gets done, like if, if it's meeting the expectation. And in this situation, it probably sounds like expectations weren't aligned, or they were unrealistic expectations from from the outset that were never

addressed. So it's like it doesn't matter what you do how you do it if if your paint is laced with gold they're just not going to be happy because you're not you're not meeting their expectations whatever, or however asinine they may be, yeah some people just can't be pleased I think it's as simple as that. And waiting those people out as quickly as possible, and not missing those red flags is one of the most

important lessons I've learned over the years. Yeah, so there's obviously a ton of challenges with our business, with our industry. You've been pretty vocal about the skilled trades gap and getting youth into the industry. How does that, or how has that impacted and challenged your day to day business over the past few years? Oh, yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I'm here, and we're doing this podcast right now, and my guys are out working in the field, so you've definitely got a balance.

It's tough. I mean, I was on my computer till 1am last night, trying to pump some stuff out. I spent about like, six hours on young craftsman last night. When you're passionate about something, I think you find the time to do it. You know, you push yourself to do things that you otherwise wouldn't do if you if you weren't so passionate

about it. So, yeah, the skilled trades gap is important. I think that you know, I feel like we're a community of people let me ask you this I think Gary I think Gary Katz actually touched on this when he was on with you guys did you ever feel at one point like you were a cast off, or something less than because you were going into the trades, or you were, yeah, I mean, absolutely it was. It trades weren't an option. To be completely honest, it was

like, do anything but this. So I went the standard route, right? I took my SATs, reluctantly, um. Um, I applied to college, I went to college, I completed college, and then when I got done, I was like, I don't want to do any of this crap. So I ended up starting my own business. I think it was 23 there are many days similar to you where I was like, Maybe I

should go do something else. But I think that I really had an issue early on, when clients were and still to this day, like when clients were to either belittle me or treat

me that like my time was not as valuable as theirs. And I took a I really that stood out to me and that impacted me greatly to the to the tune that I wanted to create a business and a model and really champion craft and trade and small business owners to be something that you could be proud of and that you can make a good living, and that like you don't have to work for somebody who doesn't value your time or be a little as what You do, or

thinks that your time is less valuable than theirs. And like most of my clients are white collar clients, but I will not tolerate being treated as though I'm below them, or my employees or my subcontractors that are below them. That's where I like have a draw a hard line in the sand. So yeah, like I still, to this day, I think that there's a lot of that going around, and a lot of people experience that, yeah, oh, I get you fired up. Man, yeah, it really does. No, you make such a good point.

That's a, I mean, I've definitely felt that feeling before, too, and it's just like, you don't own me, you know. So I think the general consensus, though, is most people in the trades have felt that feeling at some point, sure, and I think that that's something that kind of, like binds us all together, and that is something that definitely motivates me. Is like, these are my people. This is my community, and I want to

help uplift this community. You know, I've, like, had some modest success, you know, like I said, I'm, I'm not a multi millionaire, you know, I'm not looking at 10x or anything like that. I think that, you know, I'm, you know, I'm invested in some real estate.

And, you know, like you I've got some irons and other fires, and, you know, I'm being smart about what I'm doing, but you know, you start to have a little success, and you look at how you can help your group of people, you know, and help uplift them. Just I think, you know, young craftsman is my vehicle for doing that. And the modern craftsman podcast for you guys is, it seems like it's your vehicle for doing that too. And I coach and do one on ones and stuff like that. And it's, it's

very similar. I'm, you know, I spend time talking to other people too. I do like a little bit of coaching here and there with people. But, yeah, the young Crossman foundation really is kind of my vehicle to be able to give back to the trades and help uplift people. Yeah, so tell us more about that for people who are unfamiliar with it. Yeah, so it's something I started last

year. We became a charity in Massachusetts towards the end of the year in 2024 and then we received 501, c3, status, but at the federal level at the beginning of 2025 and so that came a little bit faster than we thought it was going to come through. And so we're now kind of pushing up against some fast deadlines to deliver on some tool sets to kids who are going to be graduating high school this

year. And so the general idea for the young craftsman Foundation is to support kids who are going to be taking a career in the trades. You know, the trades is just not subsidized, really, in any type of way. There is educational stuff, and it's kind of funny, you know, as we've been looking for

funding to help us grow this foundation. You know, we're having some difficulty finding grants and other institutional like type of investments out there to, you know, get some money, because there's pretty much always an educational factor inside of all these funding opportunities that we don't qualify for. And it's a little bit ironic, because the

trades is just so hands on. And my general feeling is that as good as education is, you cannot replicate what happens in the field and on job sites inside of a classroom, sure, right? So I think that that's good, but the difference in what we're doing is that we are we're taking applications from students who are graduating. We're looking at, you know, how well they finished in their class. So we're getting their

transcripts. We're getting referral letters from their from their trade shop teacher and or. Co Op people that they may have worked for over the summers or throughout the year. We're looking at if they have a resume, or if they're actively seeking a job, or if they already actually landed a job for post high school, and we're factoring all that in, as well as some yes and no type questions and

a couple open response questions. And so we're we're trying to figure out who's going to be in the trades, who's really committed to doing this, and who we feel like might have an opportunity to have a good career. And we want to support those people by sending them a tool package, scholarship, you could call it. That's going to be valued around $1,000 and so this is nationwide. This isn't just mass, right, yep. So we're going to be shipping all over the nation.

We a couple months back, like I said, this thing's been fast moving. A couple months back, I was able to meet with one of the CO owners of Acme tools, which is pretty much the largest

online retailer of tools. When you take out, like Amazon Home Depot, and most, you know, they are a tool outlet, and that is it, you know, he took my call, we hopped on a virtual and he's like, I'm in, you know, he was all about it. And so we're actually going to have our participating partners ship the tools that they're donating to the young craftsman foundation to Acme. Acme is actually going to package those up and send them out to the

recipients for us. And so that's like a super valuable partnership that we were able to land early on that's, you know, going to help us really grow and scale here, because we don't want to be a logistics company at all. You know, we're, we're totally volunteer run, like I said, I'm running a full time residential remodeling design build company. And as well as the rest of the people that are involved, you

know, they're all doing their own things. They either have a business or, like even one of our board members is, is a is a teacher? Yeah, a shop teacher, actually. So how are people finding out about this? Yeah, so we have not launched the application yet. We're, like, really close, but we've able, we've been able to link up with Skills USA and so we have, we have a database to a large number of vocational schools. We're going to be sending out a blast pretty

quickly. I'm hoping our application is going to be live in the next two weeks, because our expected timeline is for our participating partners to ship to Acme in mid May, and we want to be delivering 100 tool packages for carpentry students across America at the beginning of June this year. And so, you know, that's our goal for this year. It's coming really quick. We've had some awesome participation, especially from small businesses. I mean, man, have like, the small guys really

come out in support. You know, we've got, like, badger tool belts supporting us. You met with Joel. Joel, yeah, yeah. Joel is awesome. And, I mean, he just, he's volunteering his time. He's, you know, agreed to continue to help us out. Moving forward, we might even find some sort of position in the in the nonprofit for him. And I mean, squidgy, that's another one. I mean, these are people that are making premium products, that are donating

their products. So these kids are going to show up in pretty, pretty nice, yeah, pretty nice stuff day one, which I think is really cool, you know? I think it's awesome. I think that it's going to really help them feel respected and feel like they're contributing to the job site. Day one, you know. So is that? So, like, the short term goal of this right where it's like, we want to get the tools in the hands of these students who are entering the trades. You know, promote the trades, promote kids

taking, like, an alternative career path. Is the the bigger large like, Do you have a larger picture goal, or is the larger picture goal, just to try and help affect these young, young students, and change their outlook, and change their perception of their career path to be one that's like, more worthy, more validated, rather than something that people are looking down on. Yeah, it's both. So, yeah, short term, next year, we want to deliver on 200 tool packages to carpentry, 200

200 to plumbing and 200 to electrical. And so that'll be our goal for 2026 but yeah, in the short term, it's, it's to empower these people to feel respected and be productive day one on their job site. Points and have rapid career growth, and we feel like putting the tools in their hands to do that, and to go back real quick just a little bit. One of the one of the parts of our application that's technically bonus points is, you know, below

average median income. So we want to get this into the hands of people that otherwise would not be able to afford these tools, too, yeah, especially, you know, I remember, you know, other people coming out to job sites and wearing, like, a renter belt, you know, one that's kind of like, beat up and left over and just sitting in the tool trailer, right? And it's like, here you go, throw

this on. It's just, like, more often than not, those people last like, two weeks, you know, two months, maybe something like that. They're not invested. And so we want people to be invested. We want them to stick around and be in the trades for a long time. And I think that this is something that's going to do that for them long term, though. Yeah. So it, it's, it's, kind of, how do I say this? It's, it's difficult to have real large scale change. You know, you guys had Mike Rowe on. He kind of

touched on this a little bit. The trades need a massive PR campaign, right? It because we just need people lining up at the door and demanding that the change happen. And I think that that's part of what we can do. I think we can be a part of that PR campaign to make the trades cool. I think that what we're doing is very like videoable or capturable, but, you know, I think it's something really cool that can highlight the trades. And so, yeah, it's, it's shining a light on the trades to

create some buzz around it, so that people are aware. And it sounds kind of cheesy, but like we just need that. We need people to know that this is here, yeah, and for, for no other reason than just to contribute to, like, the industry, to the youth. I think that a lot of people do things for, you know, the to get credited for doing it right, where it's like, you can just do something like this. You don't necessarily

have to expect anything in return. It can just be to help people, and even if it's, it's a small impact on a handful of people, like with the the problem is massive. Like it, it trumps all of us. It's, it's more than just anything that you or I or Mike Rowe or Nick modern craftsman, whoever it is, is

going to be able to tackle on our own. But I've always just been of the mindset where it's like, We're not naive to the fact that we have a very small part in this, but it's also like, just because it's only helping a small amount of people doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it right. Like, the problem's

huge, and maybe we all don't have an impact individually. But when you stack up those those chips and one small decision and one small effort at a time, the sum of that winds up being something very powerful and like just to view something as insurmountable or just this massive undertaking, and, you know, it doesn't really matter what I do, like, it's not going to change anything on a greater scale. And I think that if that's the mindset that we have, yet, nothing is going to change.

And maybe, maybe it doesn't change for 10 years. Maybe it doesn't change for 20 years, but I think that the the sum of all of our decisions, the sum of all of our efforts, will make an impact in some way, shape or form, and even if it's just one person, like to me, that winds up being worth it. Like, I'm sure that with with work, with your foundation, I

know I can speak for myself and say that, like, Yeah, I do. I do a lot of this to pay my bills, but once the money's there and it pays for like, I'm not, I'm not holding any sort of sentiment to that, like that the financial weight of the money. But I have note cards and I have letters and I have emails from people thanking me, and I think about that daily, but I'm not thinking about the check that somebody paid me for, final

payment on a job daily. So like that, there is something to be said for being able to give back and just that, like self fulfillment, of being able to help people and impact other people's lives that is really, really important, and I think a lot of times, has a higher bearing on us emotionally than the financial aspect of our business, right? Yeah, you said that really well, and I spoke about it similarly before. I'm not naive to what our.

Immediate impact is right, but I do believe, collectively, all of us, kind of screaming from the mountaintops about this, eventually needs to create some sort of institutional change that's going to be implemented. You know, we have local vo tech schools around here, and I have people tell me that 20% of the kids that go there, that take a trade, actually go into their trade, right? So 80% of these

kids are, I don't know. They're going to either college or going to work at McDonald's or just going into some other totally different field. They're not pursuing the trade that they actually took. And so can you imagine if we were able to get that number to just like 40 or 50% right? And so there needs to be that institutional change. But to answer your question about what our plans are long term as well, I really would like to you know, long term, become like a

like a broad range resource for the trades. And, you know, I don't have anything tangibly written out for this yet, but in my mind, it looks like something like where we're providing guidance to people who are looking to enter the trade, so that they know what a good employment opportunity looks like. Sure, so that we're fostering continual good workmanship, right? Just good quality workers, so that

collectively, the entire trades just gets uplifted. And, you know, carpentry in particular really needs that, you know, we just don't have that barrier like plumbing and electrical, where we're highly regulated. You know, anybody can hop in a truck and grab a hammer and become a carpenter, right? It's even worse in Jersey, you guys have, like, testing and licensing we do not like, for us, it's just getting a registration with the Division of Consumer Affairs, having

insurance. They just recently required a bond, which is just paying a paying another fee. But there's really no sort of screening to be in business as a remodeling contract or a home builder in Jersey, right? And I don't know if I dislike that or like it. I mean, generally, I'm a capitalist, so I like to let the free market work. You know, the cream of the crop rises to the top right. And so that usually comes out in way of reviews, and, you know, word of mouth and different things like

that. And so, you know, I, one of my philosophies, for sure, is that you don't need a poo poo on the other people, just to like, just to say that how you're doing it is, is better. You can be doing it a better way without shitting on the other people that are doing it a different way. Because the reality is, is that as much as we talk about people who get screwed over by those people, there are other people that also need,

you know, some inexpensive work. There's just people that need a roof over their head, that just, they need the they need the washer fixed in their sink, you know, and they don't need a brand new faucet. And you know that 10, $15 is really important to them. And, yeah, I'm gonna, you know, fairly, you know, low to median market around here. And so, you know, the one thing that I definitely don't like for sure is when people have to, you know, shit on how the little guys are doing, or something

like that. But, yeah, it's Nick just sent out an email with regards to that. And I actually just recorded on midweek, on something similar, where, you know, Nick's, Nick's theory, which I forget who the quote was by, but like, essentially, there's two ways to be the tallest building, and one is by building it up, brick by brick, and the other one's by tearing everything down. And like, we want to be a resource that helps people build themselves up and not do so by tearing others down

around them. And I think that that's the attitude that we we really need to adopt for our business. It's, it's super competitive, it's super price driven. And there's a time a lot of the time, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's like, a time to place for everything. There's there's a client for everyone. It's not all about the huge dollar projects. It's not about putting the best product in all the time, like some people just need

function. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there's a lot of our industry and a lot of our our nation that's made up of those type of projects, and let's be honest, like that's what most people are getting into the trades are probably going to be dealing with and and to create a community or resource that's that's bigger than those people and has their back, I think that's what's really important.

Important, like for people to be getting into the trades, did not feel alone, and that somebody has their back and there's a community behind them, I think is really, really important, because it's the same thing you mentioned, where you feel like you're you're a cast out, or you're not worth anything, or you're just like a degenerate, and you went into the trades

because there was no other option. It's like, well, no, that's not always the case, just like any other industry, that sometimes is the case, but like, there is a life here for you, there is a good life here for you, and there are people here

who have your back. And I think that that's something that we all need to do a better job of, and being inclusive and understanding how we treat people, how we react to people, and how we judge and criticize what other people are doing, yeah, and I think that that can sometimes be the downside of, like, the whole Instagram thing, you know, and what's out there.

But, yeah, I do. I want people. I mean, I've gotten caught up in that, you know, it's like you're trying to just do projects that post beautifully and everything and look as if you're doing everything right. But, I mean, even Nick does a great job talking about, look, if you pull back the curtain, I mean, there's nonsense, you know, that you're, you're always dealing with. There's always stuff. Yeah, always. And so I really appreciate you know, how candidly you guys talk about it on here.

I, I hate to go back into it a little bit, but, you know, sometimes that's, that's the feeling that I get from like the build science community, is that, listen, if you're not doing it this way, then you are less than and so, you know, I would just say, you know, don't worry. I, you know, if you're one of those people that you feel like I have to do this, I have to be using these products. Otherwise, I'm not, you know, doing this. If the right way, don't worry about it. You're

actually in the majority. Those people that are doing that stuff are in the minority. Yeah, it's just very Instagramable. It's very it's crazy. Shows very well and there. And, no, it's fine. They're looking for their ideal customer too, and so they're putting out what they want to get back so, so I understand, I think the only thing that I would just say is, like, you don't have to put down everybody else that's doing it a different

way in order to prove that your way is the best. You know, yeah, and like that. I mean, there's definitely a community out there

that supports that as well. Like, you can get the book pretty good house and, like, that's, to me, that's, that's a principle, I think that is scalable, that's attainable for a lot of people, where that's where I want to live, and those are the people that I want to support and that I want to really represent as best as I can and be an advocate for where it's like, hey, you know, it's we're not the multi, multi

million dollar business. We're not working for the elite two, 3% we're working for everyday people who want to build a quality product and have some concerns and want things done a certain way, like and afford me the protection and my business, the protection and being able to maintain the reputation that I want for my business, like, that's my client, but you don't, you don't have to build these crazy houses. You don't have to implement these crazy details, most of which are not proven at

this point at all. I was just watching something the other day where I'm like, like, this is just so insane and overboard and over the top and not proven and complicated that I'm like, What

are we doing? Like, yeah, what are we do? Like, why and and again, the impact when these things go wrong, and how complicated and I'm I'm just thinking to myself, like, if you just think about the extra labor that this person's having to spend and the the environmental impact of them driving the car back and forth to tape a house 700 times and layer stuff inside and outside, I'm like, I'm pretty sure that we just ruined more ozone that

the utilities were ever going to do for the life span of that house in general. Yeah, but, but I digress. One other, one other thing. So you said that you have three daughters now, and that's that's got to be a huge part of your story, and business and leadership and setting an example for them. And obviously, work life balance, and you said that you went back into business when your second was coming around. You have three now. So like, what does work life balance look like for you now?

And how is that? Either, how has it evolved, or how does it continue to evolve? Yeah, so it's funny. I found myself saying it to people this this past weekend at JLC live, you know, people asking if I was going to be back on Saturday to meet up and stuff. And, you know, it's just like, you know, I don't think I'm going to generally, I like to keep my weekends, and I like to be home for dinner at the dinner table with my kids.

It's, you know, and those, those are my two number one rules. Is home for the weekends and and at the dinner table with my kids. You know, generally, you know, I, you know, it's not like that's the only time that I make pretty much after dinner is always free with my kids as well. And then during the week, it just depends. Sometimes, you know, I can give myself some time, you know, between wrapping up between four and six, you

know, to spend time with the kids. Sometimes I'm working right up to dinner. And, you know, I think that anybody that really wants to achieve something worthwhile is going to put in more than just a 40 hour week, right? So it is, it is finding that balance. But, you know, I'm really fortunate to have the support of my wife and my family. And, you know, my wife was a teacher, she works

with me now, and so that was a huge change for us. You know, we kind of, we looked at things and we said, you know, it's just so crazy and hectic with babysitting or in daycare and stuff like that. I was spending more time, and she was spending more time on the road and just running back and forth all over the place that you know, ultimately we decided, you know, let's, let's just get you home. She helps me out a little bit on the backside with the business, but just having the flexibility

that we have now is it's paramount. I mean, it's just such a breath of fresh air to feel like I have control over the majority of my life. I think most people that run a business still do understand that. You know, you do still have a boss, and it's whoever your current customers are and future ones, right? Most people running a business also feel that their life is out of control. A lot, yeah, yeah. And sometimes I can feel like that, but I kind of like it that way.

Yeah, you know, I like giving myself constraints, right? It's giving myself goals and things that sometimes seem slightly unattainable, and making myself go out and achieve those things. Yeah, so, you know, working within those constraints is, you know, brings out the best in you, being that you and your wife are, are now in the business. You know, you're working together and you're raising a family around this environment. What? What impact do you hope that that provides

for your children? And how do you hope your kids like what do you hope that they learn from watching you grow this business and work together with your wife? I think the big thing, you know, the big word for me that is, like, the number one thing for my business is integrity, right?

So I hope, number one, that they learn integrity. But on top of that, you know, I hope they see hard work, you know, I want them to learn hard work, but one of the best life skills that I really want them to learn is financial literacy, which is just so overlooked. You know, there's nobody teaching you any of the stuff that I've learned over the last 10 years. You know, since I've been on my own, if you want to find out you know how to be financially literate, you got to go find out yourself.

You gotta, you gotta ask people. You gotta start watching some YouTube videos, prompt some AI. You know, I feel like a lot of times it's, it's making mistakes right and making the wrong decisions, and at least managing the amount of mistakes that you make, so that you're not putting yourself in an imposition, for sure, and that's why I say go out on your own while you're young, you can make a bunch of mistakes, you

know. I had the benefit of my wife and I bought a two family and this was in a market where our downstairs rent was paying for the entire building, plus our cable bill, you know, and so I literally could have screwed up every way to Sunday. And I

did, you know, I pretty much did. I There were times where, you know, I remember my first job, when I went out on my own, I built these beautiful, custom built in cabinets, and when it was all said and done, I mean, I was so proud of it, but I looked at what I made, and it was like, $4 an hour or something, you know, I'm like, Yeah, this is awesome, you know. So I mean, yeah, make, make a bunch of mistakes while you're young. But yeah, getting back to my kids, yeah, financial literacy is just

so important, learning how to invest. You know, I look forward to employing my three little girls in my business at some point and just finding a way to get them involved. You know, I don't want them to inherit money. I want them to inherit responsibility. And, you know, learn how to be a real positive

contributor into life. Um. You know, whether they go to college or if they want to get into the workforce, we'll see where, you know, we're we're a ways away from it, but, yeah, it'll be here sooner than you know it, yeah. So, so we're planning for it, for sure. I think we're doing the right things in that regards. And you know, I look forward to when that time comes where I can work

with my kids. Yeah, so you mentioned it a few times, as far as integrity being really important to you and a core aspect of your business, what in the simplest terms, does that mean for you, and how does that that term and having that as one

of your core values really set you up for everyday life. I think it's just the finished product over profit is what it has to be, and that's why going back to, you know, making $4 an hour on that first project, you know, I wasn't like, I'm going to stop doing this project right now, or go back to the customer and say, Hey, I significantly under bid this. I need more

money. Or whatever it is. It's it's having the integrity to continue doing that, that thing, and do it to the best of your ability with no compromise in finishing it and being proud of it, even though you didn't make a product a profit. Well, now you need to adjust right now. Now you need to learn how to make a profit. You need to learn about some other stuff. You know, learn from your mistakes, right? But like you said, it's it's minimizing those mistakes and learning how you can get

better. But you know, my employees are instilled with that same confidence that we do not make financial decisions over, you know, the quality of the product. If we say, If we say that we're going to do something, we're going to do it, regardless of whether we screwed up the price or not. And my guys

are empowered to always do the right thing on a job site. And I think that that's super important to, you know, make sure that your employees feel that way, that they never have to cover something up, because that's the only way to build a sustainable business over long

term. Yeah, I think that that's the big picture, right, where you have to get past the point with employees, with your experience, with with your your standard operating procedures, that you get to a point where you can either capture some of those mistakes in your costing or you can nip them in the bud before you get there. But like, you have to balance the growth with how much you can give away and how much you can concede. And I think that it's important to note that, like, mistakes

happen, yeah, make them, right? Like, have the integrity. But if you're finding yourself in a position where you're constantly in the bookcase situation where you're making $4 an hour, and you continue to say, Well, yeah, like, I want to uphold my integrity, you're just being foolish, because your model is not a sustainable picture, right? So like, have integrity for yourself. Have integrity for your business. For your clients.

Understand that you're giving away a lot for free, and find out what changes you need to make so that you can actually uphold a better business model than one for you know where you're making $4 an hour to own your own business with a lot of liability and a lot of risk? Yeah, look, I wish it didn't take me five, six years, or whatever it was, to figure it out, right? I would, yeah, I wish it didn't take going to work for somebody else to realize that, no, I belong

working on my own. But that's why having an outlet like like you guys, I wish that I knew other people that could have helped me

sooner, and that's part of why I really enjoy giving back. I spend a lot of time just talking to my subcontractors, other people that you know I toss leads to, you know, guys that are a little bit younger than me, or have, like, a one man crew, people that are aspiring to, you know, just get like to like that one more notch, you know, basically, you know, to a couple guys, or get out of that rut of, you know, I think most guys, fortunately, aren't making $4 an hour, Yeah? But,

you know, get over that hump? Yeah. Yeah. You know they want to get over that hump. And I get a lot of enjoyment out of telling them what my process was like and what helped me get to where I'm at now, which I'm really comfortable with. Yeah. So I have one last somewhat, I guess, oddball question, but what's something about the industry that you wish more people understood, or something that we don't talk enough about? Hmm, you know it's it could be good or bad, like or both.

Truthfully, I, I don't know. I mean, I. I'm just, I think it goes back to like, I'm a very, like, goal driven person, and whatever it is in front of me, I just come up with a solution and deal with it, you know, so, like, I don't, I guess I'm not somebody that dwells on or overthinks things and, you know, is a sad puppy about, you know, I wish that, you know, we were respected better for this and that, or

what I don't know. You know, it's funny that you say that, because, like, one of the biggest things that I've said to people, where they just had this, like, insane realization,

is that, like, we're making all of this up. Every job that you put a number on, you're making it up, regardless of how many past projects you've done, you know, no matter how much information you have, no matter how much you've invested in software and CRMs and everything else, like at the end of the day, we're just taking stabs at this, and you're making it up, and you're trying to build these jobs on paper. And when people understand that, like, yeah, there's a big guessing game

aspect to this, and that nobody has all the answers. It's like finding out that your parents were just making it up the entire time. Like, now that you have your own kids, and you're like, Oh, my parents had no idea what they were doing. It's like that big secret to me, where it's like, just keep making good decisions, you know, maintain and uphold that integrity. Treat your customers well, set realistic expectations and

fulfill the obligations that you agreed to. And I think that if you do that, and you treat people internally and externally. Well, that you have an opportunity to create a really good business which can thrive and can and can be sustainable, and really isolate that business from, again, those market fluctuations, and I think that that's a lot of times, the key to success is that they're just, there's not really many secrets. You just got to keep doing and, you know, maintain

your word and treat people well and be fair. And I think that you can create a good life and put a good product out there. And again, like you said, you're not going to be that, that multi millionaire. I mean, you could be, but more than likely, you're just going to create a living for yourself and support your life and your family and hopefully not be too overwhelmed. Yeah. I mean, let me clarify, though, I do want to be a multi millionaire. Yeah, no, I should do something else for a living.

No, like, like, I said, you know, I've got other irons in the fire and stuff. And you know, I do own some land, and, you know, I'm thoughtful about the long term outlook. And so I actually, I think being a general contractor is one of the best paths you can take to, you know, understanding how you can generate wealth over a long period of time, because it just

opens up the door to real estate for you. And if you can get yourself into real estate and start understanding some things in that world, then you know, I think most guys will really be all right. And I think that's a great career trajectory for people to aim for that are maybe coming out of vO tech or entering the trades. Is get yourself into the trades, learn the trade. Get on your own. Learn about business, learn financial literacy, and then learn the real estate game,

because that's really going to set you up long term. Yeah, absolutely. Where I had one, one quick thing for you, yeah, I was, I was really thinking that your last question might be the book question, which I've heard you guys ask other people, take a moment to make fun of myself real quick. I don't think I've read a full book since I was in, maybe in like third grade. I think the, I think the last full book that I read was Captain Underpants, yeah.

And so I enjoy reading articles. I enjoy researching and finding things that I'm really interested in finding out about, and so I know we don't have time for it, but AI has been, like, tremendously helpful in research and getting back a lot of my time, and that's been able to help me with that work life balance and able to launch this young craftsman foundation here that you know has allowed me the amount of time to do things so you know that you're using,

yeah, I use chat GPT pretty much the majority of the time. Yeah. I mean, subscribe, get the full get the full thing. I mean, I probably spend at least an hour a day using chat GPT. You know, when we brought on our CPA to our board, who's like, you guys filed this thing by yourselves? I'm like, Yeah, I mean me, my wife, and chat GPT all together. You know, it was like, that's impressive. Usually it's us or an attorney, and it takes.

Like, 15 grand minimum to get these things set up. And I'm like, Well, you know, you can get a lot of your time back when you start to figure out how to, you know, I used it for my daughter's homework last night because she missed school. And I was like, Yo, I don't, it was how to, like, there was a bunch, there was a list of 10 or 11 things, and it was about using a microscope. And it's like, order these correctly. And I was looking at it, and I'm like, basically going through as I

would do it in school, where I didn't pay attention. And I'm like, Well, this makes sense because it's written this way. And then I got kind of stumped, and I was like, You know what? I don't know if I should be teaching you this, but I just took a photo of it and uploaded it to chat, and was like, can you tell me what order these go in? And it was immediately prompted, and I was like, Don't tell mommy, we did this. But I don't feel like looking up more about like, I'm gonna to me

that's just senseless homework. Listen, I wish somebody taught me how to use a Construction Master calculator when I was in high school. Yeah, absolutely, you know, you know. So I hope that they're learning how to use AI, rather than just calling it the bad thing that they're not allowed to use. Yeah, or just taking tests, which I feel like is not applicable to most of life. So if people want to find out about the foundation or your business, what's the best way for them to get in touch? Yeah,

so they can follow us on Instagram. Young craftsman is our Instagram handle, and then, you know, we're really looking to raise funds. Right now, we are strictly volunteer based, but we would like to bring somebody on part time, because, you know, if we had somebody dedicated to this, a little bit more time, we'd have a little bit more time to write some grants and reach out to partners. We feel like it would

be a worthwhile ROI for us to bring somebody on. You know, they can probably 10x there, man, what they're able to do with their their time retirement plan. So, yeah, we are volunteer run, but we do want to get somebody maybe spending 10 hours a week on this constantly, so that we can continue to reach out to some institutional money and get that coming in. But the best way that you can help us out right

now is just give us a follow on Instagram. We're going to try and be a little bit better about getting content out there so that you guys know what's going on after we deliver this first set of packages, we should have quite a bit more to put out there. And look, if you're if you're listening to this and you're

inspired by what we're doing, please do reach out. You can go to our website, young craftsman.com, and if you want to partner, there's a list of ways that you can partner on the website, or if you just want to reach out, shoot us an email. It's info at young craftsman.com and you know, we'd be happy to get some more people involved. You know, we're still looking for a couple tool donations, but

a shameless plug. You know, we need money, and we're happy to take yours and anybody else's same that goes for me as well. If you're listening, I'll split it with Tim. I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate it's really cool to hear your story. Learn about the foundation. Everything that you're doing, it's it sounds, you know, like you, you have things headed in the right direction. So, yeah, anything that we can do to support will spread the

word, check it out. Everyone else should do that, but I appreciate you coming on, taking the time out of your day. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. And, you know, I, you know, credit a lot of it to the community that we have, which is, you know, part of that is you guys, you know that online community, Instagram, you know, podcasts and stuff like that. I've been able to take so much from so many different things and implement that into my business. And so, you know, big thanks to

you guys, and I appreciate you having me on awesome man. Hope everyone enjoyed the podcast with Tim. Really cool conversation. Really cool guy, young guy, 33 years old. Young family growing. The business, growing the foundation. Sounds like he's got a lot of balls in the air, but super cool to hear what he's doing and the impact you know that he's having on the industry that he has said this community has had on him and the industry. So good conversation with him. I

really enjoyed talking to him. I hope that you guys do if you need anything, you have any questions, you want to reach out to him, shoot us an email. Hello at modern craftsman.co if you have not sign up for the newsletter, do that. You can also do that on the website, www dot modern craftsman.co we have some changes coming to content. We're going to be trying to film some stuff in person. I'll probably head up to

Boston to do that. Switching things up a little bit. Here I saw, or we saw a bunch of you in Rhode Island this past weekend at JLC. It's great to see everyone I'm in. On my midweek we had a very chaotic day. I was sick leading up to it. I flew in late. We packed everything into one day.

So if you said, Hi, we seem short. Didn't have time. It was for no other reason than just our schedule being jam packed and literally going from one thing to the next to the next, flying in, flying out that night. So yeah, if you guys said, Hi, I appreciate it. If it seems short or that we were in a rush to get somewhere else, we more than likely were. It was not intentional. It was not because

of you, but hope that everyone enjoyed their show. And again, you guys, if you want to get a hold of Tim or his foundation, young craftsman on Instagram. Young craftsman.com is the website, and that's craftsman M A N, singular, not plural. It's in the check. I trust my mama. You're no match for my bad karma, you.