#358 Wayne Feltman Shares What Most People Get Wrong About Skylights

The concept of skylights is still centered around, oh, they leak, oh, there's just a warranty nightmare. Talk to any roofer, contractor, builder, they'll say, Yeah, I love what they do, but there's the risk reward ratio, right? We had to get that back to where the risk wasn't there and the reward was all that you were capitalizing on. We actually did something that you're not supposed to do in the world of marketing, and we branded our third generation the no weak skylight.

Hey guys, welcome back to the modern craftsman podcast. Today's guest is someone who worked for Velux. But this conversation isn't just going to be about skylights. It's a conversation about journey, the messy, winding and often beautiful process of figuring out who you are and how you want to show up in this world. Wayne Feltman is one of the guys who's done a lot, seen a lot, and isn't afraid to talk about it. He's been with Velux for 25 years, and we're really grateful

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Questionnaire was very detailed. I like it was nice. I feel like I know you already. I hope it wasn't too much. I just thought I'd like so I've listened to a handful of your podcasts, and I got a sense for the way you guys like to go through these. And I wanted to give you a pretty good snapshot of who I was. And I think based on the interviews I've seen you do in the past, you get in as much the psychology of business and the person as you do. You know what we do for a living? Yeah,

absolutely. And I think, I mean, I think more the better. And to be honest, I think that a lot of times the conversation goes better when it's unique perspective based on it's your upbringing, your past, your life experience. So I appreciate all the detail that you put into it. And I took the time to read through all of it, and I was very fascinated, very interested, excited to talk more. But we obviously have read your your story some. But I want to start on a more personal

level. You you discuss your childhood and building forts and riding around and mowing lawns with your brothers. What did you think success would look like when you grew up as that young kid? That's interesting. You know, I don't think as a young kid you necessarily have a set idea of what success is. I. I grew up, like said, in a family where both sides were entrepreneurial, had done a number of different things, and they weren't

successful in what they did. So, you know, it was really more about, you know, what, what does my success look like going forward? What is my path going to be? And, you know, as a kid, I mean, you know, I'm like a lot of kids, I thought about a lot of different things, everything from, you know, I wanted to be a pilot, like a lot of young kids do, to wanted to be a builder and architect, which my grandfather was a builder. So

that inspired me on that front. But, you know, coming out of grade school into high school, I really didn't have a set path. And, you know, I thought, Okay, well, when I get to college, which I originally went to school, to pursue architecture. I thought, Okay, once, once I get to college, I'll kind of get this thing figured out, only to find out about a year in that, you know, I still didn't have it figured out. Yeah, and quickly change gears and shifted my focus to business from

architecture. Did it? I think that maybe it's, it's the way that you're brought up, but like I always, I knew I wanted to be successful, but without having a full understanding of what I wanted to do, I found it difficult to believe that I would be successful. And I know in your story, you know, you told us that you just didn't really understand your path, and there was a long journey, obviously, to get you to where you are

today. But do you think that, like you have to understand where you're bound to end up in order to be successful, or have this idea that you can be successful? I don't, and I think, you know, when you're younger, you kind of think that's the way the world works and the way life works. You kind of, you know, figure out what direction you want to take in life, and you start pursuing it. And then as you start living life and start pursuing your dreams, you

realize, you know what they change as time goes on. You know, different experiences and exposures in life kind of redirect where you thought you were headed or where you want to head. And that was very much the case with me. Like said, I guess, you know, when I was really young, growing up, I thought, Okay, I'm going to be like my grandparents or my parents, where, you know, I want to own my own business and run

my own shop and do my own thing. And ultimately, you know, I tried that for a bit, and quite honestly, didn't, didn't really care for that entrepreneurial running a business 24/7 that I grew up around. And why is that so? Well, I grew up in grade school unloading semi trailers in the evenings after school, working weekends. You know, my dad owned a hardware store, retail hardware store, and that's, you know, a seven day a week kind of business. And, you know, I kind of grew up around

that, and that just wasn't the life that I wanted. Quite honestly, I wanted my weekends. And growing up, my brothers and I started, like, set a lawn care business, and kind of had some independence with that we're making at the time, you know, for for grade school into high school aged kids, we were making, you know, pretty good living, if you will, with the freedom of having our weekends to do what we wanted. And I didn't see that you didn't cut lawns on the weekends. Generally

speaking, no, we spent our weekends out on the lake. Quite honestly, it's the money that that is what, like I did the exact same thing. I started, like, a little long business with my buddy, and we would push it had to be within like, a couple blocks of where you live, because we were pushing the equipment to get to the houses. And I lived in a town where, like, kids, parents

didn't make them work. But I had so much fun doing that. And we're, we're in sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, and just trying to make some extra, extra cash to be able to have some fun with but those are some of, like, the best memories I have, and just simple times being outside doing that stuff. And that's kind of how it started with us. I grew up on a cul de sac, and then behind us was a farm across the creek from us, if you will.

So, you know, one side of the neighborhood was a subdivision, and then the other side was kind of farmland, at a horse farm, and a bunch of acreage and woods. So it was a perfect place to grow up. But, you know, we started, we had about an acre of grass, and my dad gave us a couple 21 inch mowers. And said, All right, kids are growing up. Time to mow. And this was about third fourth grade. And then it just kind of snowballed. From there, it went from doing only ours to doing ours and the

neighbors, and then the other neighbor. And next thing you know, there were, I think, seven or eight homes on the cul de sac. We were pretty much on a routine basis, doing four or five of them, a couple of them were holdouts that we couldn't close for whatever reason. And then, like said, it just expanded from there wasn't gotten to high school. We started mowing in my grandparents house, and next thing you know, we're doing a bunch of homes adjacent to them.

And then we called it drop a trailer. So we ultimately were working. Really out of about four neighborhoods, and we didn't grow it significantly. We had at most 20 to 25 lawns, and that was, that was our steady business, if you will, that we knew would be there all summer long. And then my older brother worked at a landscape nursery. He went to school, got a two year associate's horticulture degree. And through high school, he started working at a landscape nursery, and they took

on larger projects. But if somebody came in and said, Yeah, I just want to buy a tree. We come plant a tree in my backyard that wasn't a big enough of a project for them to want to tackle. So he would sub that work out to myself and a buddy, and we would go, you know, start doing that. And then once he had spent a few years there and I was in college, we decided to kind of go full time at it, if you will, and start our own business. And he left that that company, and so as combination

of mowing, but constructive landscape as well. So at that time, he was doing design services, and myself and a buddy, we're doing, I'll call it the labor side of things. Yeah, how big was How big was your dad's hardware store in terms of, was it just like one stored here in multiple stores? Was it so like? And the reason I asked when I was I, I've read

your your your story. And I feel like I can relate to being, you know, 18 to 21 years old and trying to figure out what you wanted to do, where you wanted to be, who you were supposed to be. And even earlier, like, what am I going to do with my life? And we had this really old hardware store in town that I grew up in, and it was just like, super romantic old school, like all the bins, hand label with all the hardware, the guy in there knew everything about it, like they had one of

everything. And I think back on that, and I always thought to myself, like, this would be such a cool place to own. And for a while I was like, I kind of want to, like, own this really old hardware store one day, and then I read your store, and you're like, I hated owning a hardware store. And I was like, damn, there goes that idea. Yeah. So to answer your question, we had one main store, which was

our larger store, and it was a nicer store. It was, it wasn't the old it was still an old school hardware store in the sense of, you know, the way we operated, but it was about a 20,000 square foot store at the time. Was a fairly large store, yeah, but, you know, the way you described it, and we did

everything, I'll call it. We were kind of the early home center, if you will, yeah, because we had all the different departments within that store, small engine repair and lawn and garden tools, all that down to the hardware, the nuts and bolts and fasteners, everything you could possibly want we had. The name of the business was service hardware, and that was something my dad prided him in, as you pretty much bring anything to us and we try to surface it for you, yeah, whether it, whether

it had a motor on it or not, we'll try it. And then he grew that to a couple small towns. So that was on the north side of India, as the north side of India was growing. And then we expanded to a couple small towns, a town called Fishers Indiana, and then up into Pendleton, Indiana, kind of couple smaller satellite stores, but like a lot of you know, hardware stores, once the development passed, our main store, the home centers came to town, yeah, and it came a little

bit of a struggle. Quite honestly, I feel like all those small romantic shops ended up getting bought up by, you know, Ace Hardware, or true value or or one of the bigger brands, and then sure, there's still a couple near me, and they're still super cool, like they're I just feel like they have so much crap. There's not enough room in them for everything that they have. And it's like there'll be something in a perfect package that's like, 40 years old that they'd be willing to part with, that's

just been sitting there for like, the right person. They always have, like, an attic area that you can walk up that's just a bunch of miscellaneous stuff they've collected over the years. Sounds like this is not the type of hardware store that you guys own. So I'm still going to hold out some hope that it's going to be a really cool idea, like when I retire to own one. Well, I think you would be impressed by some of the things that we collected, that people would bring to us that had

engines on them. I mean, like I said, we were a small engine repair shop as well. So I mean, everything from snowmobiles to many bikes to go carts, anything with a small little, you know, either to council, Briggs and Stratton, you know, some of the older style engines we could service and repair them. And sometimes the price was beyond what they wanted to spend. And next thing you know, you you own those things because they don't want to hold them

home. Yeah, absolutely, it's, it sounds, I don't know if it's like I always thought that we're Nick we're one of the last generations that had, like, the quintessential childhood being outside and the elements like robbing stuff from. Of house builds, like you said, to build your own forts, or going in the dumpster and picking out scraps of wood. It sounds that you had a similar upbringing and a similar childhood. Do you think that that has impacted you and like your life today?

For sure, it probably is responsible for my career at this point, and I mean that sincerely, like I said, we had some a farm behind us, you know, we didn't own it, but a lot of land and the development, the fringe of the development, was kind of right, where our subdivision was so similar to your situation, there was a lot of new homes going up, and we went back into the woods. And when I say we built a tree fort.

And we're talking, you know, we picked the right tree about 20 feet up, and we're talking about a two story tree fort, and you got a hardware at your disposal and plenty of lumber around. You know, that's, that's where I cut my teeth, though. I'm, you know, really getting my hands dirty and using tools and really learning, learning the skills to be a craftsman. I feel like that's the stuff they like write books about and make

movies about. That just doesn't happen anymore. For sure, like childhood experience coming of age that I don't know I I look back on those times with a deep fondness. I remember they built a house across the street from me, once they actually tore the house down and then built a complete new house. And I remember going over there. I was probably like seven or eight, and 711 was big near us, and all the construction workers would buy, like, the hot dogs and the drinks, and they had this like

stickers that you could peel off and possibly win stuff. And the guys would never peel them off, and I would go over there, like every day after work and get all this free winnings from all of their cups and hot dogs. And I was like, seven and then just go to 711 we'd like treat ourselves to a bunch of hot dogs and sodas thanks to the construction workers across the street. Yeah, we usually ask them if we could have some of the stuff.

And most of the time, they were more than generous, you know, because they knew what we were up to, and they'd come back and see what we were up to. Ironically, our parents never really came back until we were largely built out on this thing. And then when they did see it, they were, like, terrified of how big it was and how high it was. I think it was when we stole one of my dad's tractor batteries and logged it back there. I mean, literally, we had, like, little low voltage

system where you have, you know, lighting throughout it. And so when I say, Well, you know, you learn a lot by doing these things. And when we learn craft, you know, carpentry, we learned low voltage electrical systems, if you will, put little sockets and light bulbs and ran off a car battery. Yeah,

that's so cool. So you discussed early on in your career, you you jumped around a bunch selling Wall Street type job to obviously, the landscaping, transitioning into your your Velux career, when throughout, like your journey, did you feel that what you were doing wasn't for you and it was time to make a change?

Yeah? No, that's an excellent question. So I graduated college in 1995 and like a lot of kids coming out of college, you know, I was kind of chasing the almighty dollar one of my customers that we maintain their lawn was a very successful stock broker. So that's what got me into that business. It was more the appeal of seeing what the lifestyle, you know, it could afford. And I was always interested in, you know,

investments and business, if you will. Part of that came out of, you know, some of my college curriculum, but I gave that a go, and you know, it's, it's, this was still back in the days, or the Blue Room, where they put you in a cubicle and give you a call list and 200 dials a day before you leave, and add it up to it, usually about a 12 hour day. So I stuck that out for about a year. I just That's after spending most of my time outdoors, being in a cubicle like that was quite tough.

Were you making? Were you making the money that you like anticipated? Well, that's interesting. So I mean, that industry at the time was, you know, all about reaching out to your friends and family and trying to bring as many of them into the fold as you could. I intentionally took kind of a different approach, because the turnover rate in the industry about 90% of people that start out in that industry don't, don't stay in it, but the assets that you bring to them tend to it's a sticky industry

in that regard. So yeah, I knew that going in, and I didn't want to be the guy that brought my friends and family in only to leave it until I knew I could make it, and then I was going to commit to it for a long term career. So I tried to do it the old school way, which was dial for dollars. And, you know, it was amazing that you actually could recruit people that way and bring in assets that way, but, and I was pretty good on

the phones to where I could get them in. But then, you know, they show up, and you got somebody that's worked a 3040, year. Career that has a rollover, and then they realize that you're a 22 year old kid right out of college, pretty wet behind the ears. And so that was a struggle. Once you realize, okay, I'm not quite right. And give credit to one of the older established brokers that was there. He said, Wayne, you know,

get out of this industry. Go get into outside sales, build some good relationships, treat people, right, and then come back into this industry, you know, 20 years from now, yeah, and that's how you become a very successful broker. So not only did I not really enjoy what I was doing, but I took that to heart. And my roommate at the time was an outside sales doing quite well. So I just said, Okay, I need to maybe make a leap here and get into outside sales where I'm out and about.

And that led me to the computer industry. Worked for a small systems integration company for about three years. And when I say small, it was a local mom and pop kind of thing. And I had learned enough on the finance side of things about 401, K and retirement and the importance of starting early. And one of the promises they had made to me when I started was that they

would start a 401, K. They were like, set an upstart. And when that really didn't come to fruition, I decided to kind of look towards a bigger type company, and landed at a fortune 500 company selling time and attendance systems. But again, my heart just wasn't in it, yeah. And that was a, you know, like, a lot of sales job, you know, hit your monthly number to make your money more of a commission based job. So not a

lot of stability in that regard. And so, you know, after about four years of I'll call it chasing the almighty dollar, which is basically what those jobs were, you know, I said, you know. And I honestly wasn't really actively looking at the time, my girlfriend, at the time, was was looking and saw an ad for Velux, you know. And this was back when, you know, kind of

pre internet, most people looked at the classifieds for jobs. And she had lived through the ordeal of me replacing some skylights in my home, where we where we both became familiar with Velux, and I was like, Huh? I know a little bit about Velux, having just replaced some skylights in my own house with Velux. Can we

talk about that? I don't want to cut you off, but I find, like the the issue that you were having and what you figured out was wrong with it is actually very interesting, and I kind of want to discuss that also,

for sure, for sure. So, yeah, back in 95 when I graduated college, I had bought a house, and like a lot of homes in the mid 90s, it had the old plastic bubbles on it, and those things that were so discolored and clouded over you really weren't getting much light through it. Definitely couldn't see through them. And when it would rain, it just sounded like drums. I mean, they were noisy. So I needed a new roof. So at that time, I, at this point, I had already had a little exposure to V Lux, and

knew it was a quality glass skylight. So replaced the roof and replaced them with Elux skylights. And this was mid summer. Fast forward into the fall, colder winter months. We're moving in. You know, the skylight started dripping on my pool table. Like every good batch where I have a pool table in my great room at the time, you're gonna piss a lot of college kids off right now, where it's like,

Yo, he just got done College. He bought his own house. He's putting a new roof on it with skylights, and he has a pool table. And they're like, because I literally can't afford anything. Well, there's a little more backstory to that. Actually, my older brother had bought the house, and unfortunately I lost him in an accident, so I assumed the house and his mortgage when he had passed, and it just coincided kind of when I was graduating college, but, but anyway, back to the skylight

situation. I mean, that was when I really got intimate with the company. Because, you know, even though I had grown up with, you know, skylights on our personal residence and down at my grandfather's Lake House, which were Velux with no issues at all when it came to my own house and replaced them. You know, I ended up having a problem. And it turns out it was improper installation that they had not wrapped the frames with an

adhesive underlayment, or really any underlayment. And I've got a rough kind of B board seeing ceiling that's not really that airtight, if you will. So that warm, moist air, conditioned air was making back, you know, contact the backside of the step flashing, and it would it would frost, and then the sun would come up, warm it up, and it would melt that frost, and it would drip down through the rough opening. And like I said, I wasn't that knowledgeable about him at the time, and it

called the contractor back. He came back out and applied a bucket, a bowl or tar all the way around it, you know. Now I've got a an ugly Velox skylight, you know. But he assured me that, you know, the problem was solved. Well, it wasn't. It came back, you know, and it continued. So I called him again, so he came back out. Had a little bit more. And then,

you know, finally, he was convinced that it wasn't. It his fault that it was a manufacturing defect of some kind, and encouraged me to call, call the manufacturer or the supplier. So roundabout way, I got a hold of Velux, talked to somebody in our customer service team, or the, you know, the V Lux customer service team. At the time, I remember distinctly

them saying, Hey, you got a fax machine, which I did. They faxed over about a 10 page document that was the installation instructions, and they walked me through it, step by step on how these things get installed. And said, you know, get up there and take a look. Pull the cladding back, pull the flashing back, and see if this thing's, you know, wrapped with underlayment, and it wasn't. And he goes, you know, if it's not, you know, remove the flashing, wrap it, put it back together, and your

problem will go away. And sure enough, that's what I did, and problem went away. So it was just condensation the whole time it was, yeah, all I'm thinking about when you're saying that Wayne is if someone called today a homeowner and said, This is what I'm having an issue with, and you guys were to advise someone, all right, climb up on your roof, pull the cladding back. Want you to look at this detail, 90s, man. I know 90s. Yeah. Well, this will tell you something about me. It's also a

1212 pitch. I live in an A frame style house, so it's a 1212 pitches. You could watch. You could walk a 1212 pitch like, Oh, I wish you can't watch them anymore. You know, I didn't have my roof or feet about me back then, I do these days, but back then it was, you know, it was get out the 30 foot extension ladder. Fortunately, Dad had one of those. And, you know, use a car in the driveway to keep it from kicking out and push that thing up the roof and get up there to open it up. It's

funny. It's such a, such a random story, but your comment just reminded me of it having roofer feet. And I remember being real little, and my neighbor had mulch delivered to their house, and dump truck lifts up. He's got mulch in it, but there's mulch stuck way up, and the guy walks up the bed of the dump truck and gets up there and starts shoveling the mulch out. And I am enamored, and I look at his my neighbor's name

was Phil. I'm like, Phil, how's he do that? Like, I couldn't understand how he walked up the dump truck when the dump trucks fully tilted, and he looked at me, goes, Oh, he's got balance. And at that, at that age, I just, I didn't know what balance was. And that's like for, I don't know how long, weeks, months, days, whatever it was, but all I kept thinking, all I wanted to learn was, how do I get balance? I just, I want to be able to walk up something like that. So you're talking

about having roofer feed. I mean, it's real, like you walk you watch someone that's comfortable on roof. They can walk up a 1212, pitch, not think anything of it. And you get someone that's uncomfortable with it, you know, a 612 pitches, you know, they're tripping and falling off it. Yeah, yeah. If you want to get roofer fees, spend some time with the roofing crew. You'll pick it up pretty quick. You got it, yeah.

Honestly, when I first started with Elex, back then, one of the ways they trained us, we had service techs around the nation, so I went up to Chicago and spent time with our service tech, who had been with us at that time for 1520, years. And I'll never forget it that one of the first jobs he took me out on was a three story condo complex, which is con pretty common in Chicago, you know, townhome style homes, and to go up a 40 foot extension ladder and transition from the top of that

ladder onto that roof. You know, I was questioning whether I had made the right decision, and he assured me, goes, now a, this doesn't happen very often, especially down your way. You won't be doing this. And B, you get roofer feet about you. You'll get comfortable. And to his credit, he said, but the key to a long life is not to get too comfortable. Yeah, and I've always remembered that. And you got to be safe when you're up there too. You need extension ladder feets too, because you get beat

because you get on a 40 foot extension ladder. And that's like a different beast, especially when it starts moving like this is so sketchy, you look around, you're like, alright, which part is of this is going to fail, yeah. And where do I go? My dad always had these ghetto ladders too, where I'm like, I feel like they were free, they were bent, they didn't work correctly. And my dad, at one point, had the like, pick or extending scaffold, and it was like, wood, just slats of wood

that were together. And he would be up on that thing, and it would be moving and bouncing, and he's like, you're fine. And then he's just shaking. I'm like, holding on to the post the whole time. I'm like, I'm not fine at all. I don't trust this. They make metal picks now that we don't need to be on this telescopic wouldn't pick from like, 50 years ago. He probably still has it. I bet you he does, to be honest. I'm not even kidding. I probably still use it too. Oh yeah. He does

the ladders that he uses. I'm like, why are you on that? He's like, I'm 70 years old. It hasn't failed at this point. I'm like, I guess I don't know. They might rather have a ladder that looks somewhat decent. My grandfather had wooden extension ladders. Oh yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Super heavy, but, like, you climb up them and they creak, Yeah, same thing. You bake. You're fine. It's like, you didn't tie anything off. You just lean it against the roof

where you hoped it didn't slip. Yeah, my dad would make his, like, his posts for the roof Jacks out of two by fours, just like nailing them together. What about, what were the aluminum poles? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You're talking about pump jacks, yeah, yeah, out of just two by fours now together, and they, like, they would sway so much like they were designed for that. I they were, but it still was sketchy. Like, now you have aluminum pump jacks that don't move right,

with rubber on them, and they're like, yeah, yeah. You'd watch them able to buy for us together Now, fortunately, technology has come a long ways, and there are definitely a lot more things out there to make, make it safe to yeah these things. Hey guys. Quick break from the podcast. Head over to modern craftsman.co scroll all the way to the bottom and sign up for

our newsletter. You're going to get a weekly email from us, but you're also going to get some episode recaps with actionable items that can help you improve your business and be more profitable. Now back to the podcast. So we we talk a lot on the podcast about this illusion that people have of having everything put together and understanding

their path. And it sounds as though your path forward in life from the time you know you were deciding what you wanted to do in college to what you're going to do for a career that you didn't necessarily know exactly where you were going to wind up. What kept you moving forward in the direction that you feel like you eventually landed in? Did you follow like any sort of advice? Was a, Hey, I'm just going to listen to my heart.

What kind of led you to where you are now. Because it seems as though your path was not necessarily from A to B. No, it definitely wasn't. So, I mean, you know, I don't think anyone wakes up and says, you know, I think I'm going to go into the skylight industry and build a, you know, at this

point, 20 is 26. Year career, selling skylights. You know, it definitely wasn't on my mind when I was in grade school, high school, or even college, but some early exposures to skylights really set the path, and I just didn't know it at the time. You know, from my family had bought a condo up in northern Indiana. And to the builders credit, I mean, they had a loss that, you know, back then, hard to air conditioning, hard to cool, put, put some venting skylights in them. So

that was my very first exposure. That was in the early 80s, mid 80s, couple, couple venting skylights in the top of a loft of a townhome style condo, and we'd open them up and, you know, it cool the place off really quick when we got up there. Fast forward. You know, at that point, that was really our first exposure to it. My parents had moved the family to a new house. Needed to finish off an attic space to give my sister a

bedroom. I'm one of four kids. I had a younger sister, and then as three brothers, and so they decided to put her upstairs, and us kids down in the basement, the boys. And they decided, You know what, that those skylights at the condo were nice. Let's, let's do that in this renovation. And we added a couple venting skylights in that renovation. So, I mean, that was, you know, and then then you heard about my experience when I ultimately bought my house and had to replace some plastic

bubbles. And then there was one other experience. My grandfather had a log cabin down in southern Indiana, also a lake house, and that's actually where I grew up, initially, boating and whatnot. And my parents acquired that cabin at his passing, and we needed to renovate it. It was a 1960s log cabin. Try to give you the image, and it's the dark logs, low, low ceilings, if you will. And my mom always wanted a sun room, and we ended up adding

a sunroom onto the cabin. And the builder, to, again, to the builder's credit, said, well, once we add this sunroom on, you know, the light you're getting into those vertical windows, into that kitchen, is going to be pretty much shut off. So he goes, You know, I recommend a couple things, and this builder does a lot of work on this small lake, and just about every other house down there has skylights. He goes, I always put skylights

in the sunroom, and there's a concept for that. Now, we call it borrowed light, where you really brighten that sunroom and pull it in through the vertical windows. But he said, I also recommend we add some skylights over the kitchen directly. And we did that, and it was just transformative. I mean, it really dramatically changed the look of that kitchen. And we also did it actually on the boathouse, which was kind of

unique application. And to this day, I still think some of the best applications for skylights are utility sheds, boat houses, you know, I'll call them outdoor structures that you don't necessarily associate with putting a skylight. But I mean, this was a concrete block 1960s boathouse that there was no daylight in there at all, no windows, so when it was shut and

down. Was dark, and a lot of times someone would forget to turn the light switch out, and we go down there and flip the switch and no light, you know, try changing a light bulb in a dark boat house. Yeah, it's not fun. So just a couple, you know, three by four skylights, and it totally transformed that boathouse. So in early, you know, through those experiences, you know, I really came to value what a skylight can do. And, like said, fast forward when I really was kind of open to a new

career path. Originally, I went, like said, to school to be an architect, but didn't pursue a change to business. Graduate with a business and entrepreneurship degree, management degree, but after, you know, for four years of chasing almighty dollar and just not really being happy. Said, You know what? This is, something I think I could get

behind is, you know, selling skylights. I know a little bit about them, knew a little bit about the company at that point, sent them a resume, and, you know, next thing you know, I'm out selling skylights and transforming people's homes, working with builders, remodelers, architects. So it

all kind of came full circle. And I started off as the Indiana, Kentucky sales representative, territory representative, really enjoyed, you know, those, those four years greatly, because I was, you know, you know, on the streets, making it happen. And literally, could see, you know, whether it be homorama type projects, where you you know that, you know they had no intentions of adding skylights.

And then, you know, after working with the builder and the architect, next thing you know, they're incorporating them and just the impact it would have on their homes working with remodeler, same kind of thing, using the, you know, the example, the guys that do sunrooms, and convincing them that, you know, hey, you can have a better sunroom than the

other guy by adding skylights. And then just seeing the impact, not only that, the trade people would have when they witnessed it firsthand, but what their consumers would experience, yeah, you know it, you know. And I always say, you know, if you're a builder, if you take, you know, two homes somewhere, floor plans, one with skylights, one without, and open them up like a model home, kind of format where you run people through them and then ask consumers afterwards which one

they liked better? Can be very similar. Floor plans, very similar, design and decoration. Interior wise, they invariably will say the one with skylights. And the thing that's interesting, though, and it's a challenge for us, actually, is they won't necessarily know why. I don't know. It just felt better, you know, it's just more open and and then, well, did you know that? Notice that that one was, you know, daylit with a bunch of skylights, and then it's like, ah, the aha moment,

right? The light bulb goes off. That was the difference. It was, it was interesting too, to see like I know that there's a stigma around skylights, and, like, the original skylights and the issues and that they were leaking and typically installer error. But then also, like, you forget about the production shift of home building and how production builders aren't utilizing skylights, and then, like, I never put any thought to trust roofs where it's like, yeah, what are you going to do

for a skylight? When you have this trust, you trust roof, and

then you have utilities and insulation. It really it's got to be somewhat of an uphill battle for your company when there's all of these changes and the stigmas around skylights, and I never really put that much thought to it before, but it was interesting to hear that that perspective, even just with like the trust roof, and how much everything's gone that that way, how difficult it would be to integrate that into your process if you already don't have it in there?

Yeah, no, you bring up a lot of really important points. First one is just the perception that all skylights leak are problematic. You know, unfortunately that, you know, you know, skylights really kind of took off in the late 60s into the 70s as a design element, because they do help designers overcome design challenges, you know, interior, you know, daylighting, the core of a space. I mean that some of the things we just talked about in terms of, you know, you know,

borrowed white and whatnot. But the thing is, you know, once the industry really took off, you know, a lot of players tried to enter the industry. And there's, there's, there's, there's some, unfortunately, some pretty crappy product out there that was put into the marketplace as well. There's different design and installation methodologies at play as well. You guys have probably heard the terms cell flash or pan flash, and you got curb mount and you got deck mount. You know, in different

regions of the country, use different methodologies. But really, the, you know, a lot of the plastic bubbles that were sold in the 70s into the 80s were a self flash type bubble that were just hard down to the roof deck. I mean, they were only as good as the sealant you were using, and they were problematic. I mean, they just were and fortunately, you know, there were also quality products out there. That were GLASS

Based, that were step flashed in. And if you're not familiar with step flashing, it's the same way we put a dormer on a house or a chimney on a house, you know, we we've step flashing in with with the shingles, and it's a dry installation. There's no cocks or adhesives used. And if you put a 2530 year roof down, you know, properly installed, that should last problem free for 2530, years. And Velux has always made a quality glass product with with engineered step flashing kits.

We would call it a system approach. You get a quality deck mount skylight or curb mount skylight, and then we have an engineered flashing kit to match. That gives you that assurance that you're not going to have problems, in the short term or the long term. It just wasn't true in the 60s and 70s into the 80s. It's crazy to think how much we rely on sealants and adhesives and tapes

these days. That's something I've been concerned about for a while, especially when we're discussing the envelopes of homes and how much better things would be if we were integrating just more traditional flashing details, for sure, not getting the air sealing, which I think that you could probably address in one way or another, but I think that we do rely a lot on adhesives and sealants where there's probably better, better

options. Well, I mean, to that point, I thought, I've thought about that in reference, or in comparison to commercial I think about some of the high rise projects I've been part of. You know, you have these precast panels and every window there's no flange or tape, everything's cocked in, and it's usually back a rod and then two beads of caulking. But the difference is, on a situation like that is it's designed to be replaced. Like that, caulking will eventually need to be replaced, and that's

part of the envelope maintenance over time. It might be 25 years, but it has to be done. Where, I think in residential you, you kind of expect that that doesn't have to be maintained. Yeah, and it's also a lot of times I feel like inaccessible, because it was never planned to be maintained in the first place.

You know, or you don't know, when it's not doing its job, or you have an issue, and you go to the caulk or the tar like you were discussing, like you're finally making this way worse, because now, like the water's still getting in from somewhere else, and now you're just trapping it. Well, what's interesting is Velux has always led with our deck mount

product. Us old school guys say deck is best, and if it's on my house, it's going to be a deck mount skylight with one of our engineered flashings, and then a close second would be our curb mount. Now there's certain applications where curb mount makes sense, flat roofs and whatnot, where our decks not appropriate. And then there's that, you know, that wild child called self flash, and for years, Velox didn't offer it or

make it in certain parts of the country. You get down on, you know, down into Florida, that even, you know, Georgia, Carolina's a little bit self Flash is just an accepted method of installation. And for years, we kept just saying, Guys, switch to deck, switch to deck. It's better step flash it in. But the trades the roofing industry down there, cell Flash is just an accepted method. And down there they don't have the real cold temperatures, so they don't have the, I'll call it the

condensation issues, and it works. So we finally said, All right, well, if we give them what they want, at least we can establish a relationship with these contractors and maybe have a better opportunity to educate them on the advantages of a properly step flashed in skyline. And like I said today, we offer all three installation methodologies, and we think we got a better spin on it in terms of the way we make the product.

But, you know, again, I'm old school. I still like a step flashed in product, and if it's on my house, that's what I'm going to use. So something that I I want to talk about from a listener's perspective and a life experience perspective, and has nothing to do with skylights, which is also a tough subject, but I would have assumed it's got to be something that's important to you. You mentioned it in your story, but you said that you lost your older brother in a tractor

accident. I did. I did. And you were, you were in college at that point. I was, it was my senior year of college, and like I said, we were running a landscaping business. And like so we grew up around tractors, and it's unfortunately, I think it probably came down to just got a little too comfortable, but we had rented a back a backhoe, and he was grading out a hillside. And, long story short, got got a little squirrely, and it flipped. He got thrown off, and it rolled down on top of him. So

fortunately or unfortunately, I wasn't there. My buddy that I was running the business with was I was actually down in the Carolinas with my girlfriend, taking a much needed little vacation or getaway. And. The like said, got, got the call in the evening that my brother had passed away. Yeah, I can I have a I lost a good buddy of mine when I was 19, and I'm still in touch with his brothers today, and I know how, how difficult that has been, even at this point, 25 years later for

them to try and cope with. So I not that I understand, but I definitely feel for you and have a tiny bit of perspective as to how that can, you know, affect your life and your family? Do you think that that has made your approach to life and your perspective on time. You mentioned how the hands of time continue to move faster and faster. Do you think that a lot of that perspective is and your life perspective is based on that experience?

For sure? I mean, it can't help but impact the way you view things. But it wasn't just my brother. I had a close friend at this point. You know, once you get some years under your belt, we all know somebody that passed probably prematurely, another good friend of mine, who had just started his family, three kids, developed colon cancer and passed away quite suddenly and tragically. That one, you know, accidents happen. I guess you

kind of dismiss that. And then, you know, when the health issues start surfacing with some of your friends and and family members, you start to realize there's just no guarantees in life. Yeah, you know, make, make the most of it. Yeah, it's it's scary. We're going through that right now with my father in law. And I think a lot of times you just lose perspective of that, you lose sight of that, or time passes, or you just write it off like it's not close enough to

me. I'm 39 and one of one of my good friends from growing up her her husband just got diagnosed with like, a pretty significant brain tumor, and he's around our age, and I'm like, it hits you a lot more when it's somebody who's your age. And you can, like, there's a metric to gage that, where it's like, yeah, at this point now, I'm not 25 I'm not invincible. Shit happens?

People get sick, and it does, it does put a perspective on things that, sadly, can provide a lot of clarity for you while you're trying to figure out what's important in life, for sure, for sure. So you, you said that you were, you took this job with Velux, and that it provides like that outlet for you. You said you were going to be an architect. You like to tinker. You like the

hands on aspect of your job and of what you're doing. Did you know going into this project that it was going to provide, like that type of experience for you, not as much as it has. So, you know, you know, the job description was obviously interfacing with, you know, builders, roofers, remodelers, architects and our dealer base,

you know. So, you know, we run the full gamut, which is nice, one of the reasons I think I've stuck around so long is just the diversity of what we do as sales reps for Velux, because we do interface with all those different parties, so to speak.

But the most rewarding part of it is being able to influence that designer, builder, remodeler, and really show them the power of skylights, or daylighting through the roof, a phrase that a lot of us use of Velox is, you know, the most impactful, least costly remodeling project you can undertake is daylight in your home with skylights. And I truly believe that's true. I mean, people spend a fortune on hardwood floors, granite countertops and all these

things. But if it's a 1960s 1970s eight foot ceiling, ranch style house, you know, okay, yeah, it freshens it up. But it really isn't that dramatic of a change. You open up that ceiling, and, you know, lift the ceiling, so to speak, open that up, bring in some daylight and fresh air, for that matter, through the roof. Now we're talking about transformative and I guess I've done it so many times, and I've seen the results

firsthand so many times that it's just, I love it. And it doesn't get old seeing the, you know, the expressions on people's faces, when you actually pull that off, yeah, I like something. You said that that skylights aren't just for light, they're for comfort, health and emotion. And I think that that's pretty good insight. And there are, there's a lot of renovations that we've done where adding natural light, adding a window, adding a door, adding skylights, was like the

biggest impact. And I'm like, we put so much money into so many

other things. You spend so much money on connections. And I'm like, I we could have just cut these windows in and been done, yeah, and, like I said, depending on the, you know, the application, I mean, if it's the core of a space, I mean, there's, you know, you take that, you know, a townhome, for example, where you've got, you know, adjacent townhomes off both sides, the only place you can bring daylight in from through vertical windows in the front and the front, the back of

that structure. And if it's a deep structure, you know, really bringing it in from overheads. The way to do it, we had a project in in the city. It was actually, I don't know, it wasn't a row home, but they were really tight. They had like two foot alleys between the homes, and they had an eight foot by eight foot backyard, or, I'm sorry, back deck, which had like two foot of space, so it was

basically 100 square feet. And they wanted, they ultimately wanted, to expand their kitchen and take up the deck space, and they were going to lose all that space. But the the number one thing that they talked about when we started that project was we need natural light in this kitchen. The existing one is so dark. We have this window, we have this large slider and I had, you know, we had pitched him on doing a, I think it's the

sky Max, the big one. And, you know, and we had said, what if we, what if we install a large, a really large skylight, and we all the client, ultimately ended up going for it, and to your to what you said, the emotion when you walked into that kitchen, you know, you'd approach the kitchen and be like, Man, this is a really nice kitchen. Wow. Why is there so much natural light? And then you got into there, and there was just, just this massive piece of glass that captured everything above it.

And every other window in that home was just, you know, what didn't capture light because there was a house two feet away from it. And every project we've done to date, anytime we've built or remodeled in a space that has access to a roof, we've

always pitched it for us. I think that, you know, tying back to the emotion, it's always the way that we, you know, I think that there I'm gonna kind of class classify, like, there's this typical install where it's like, you just punch the opening, you bring in the light, and it's in the room, and it's

and it's a skylight. And every project we've done, we've always tried to push that limit, to to to more of a, you know, my my favorite buzzword, but more of an intentional detail, and it's just a matter of moving it in a little bit of one direction or the other to do something different than it typically

would. One of my favorite examples, it was a very inexpensive skylight, very small, but, you know, they wanted this small skylight above the staircase, and it was originally drawn to be directly over the staircase itself, and we had moved it, and we actually pushed it up against the wall, so one of the walls extended all the way up to the glass. And it actually made the space brighter, because as the sun poured in, it actually reflected across the entire wall surface.

And it's those little moments that, are like, you know, we we talk about them, and then they happen. And then the project is done, and you look at it and you realize how dramatic that that micro detail is, and tying it back to something, as, you know, quote, unquote, simple as adding a skylight to that space. But it's, it is. It's, you know, it's interesting how the concept of skylights is still centered around, oh, they leak. Oh,

there's just a warranty nightmare. But on the flip side, they're actually, they don't leak when they're installed correctly, and they're hugely impactful well, and I think we've come a long ways from really that perception. I mean, so we're on our third generation of product

right now. So we had our first generation that really started early 80s through 1994 and we came out with our second generation, which from 95 up to 2010 our current generation product, or our third generation, started in 2010 and I mean, this obviously the weak issue was an issue that we were battling as an industry and as a company. And so we decided when we came out with our third generation product that we really needed to bring confidence back to the

marketplace. I mean, people love what skylights do. I mean, you know, you talk to any roofer, contractor, builder, they'll say, Yeah, I love what they do, but there's the risk reward ratio, right? And we had to get that back to where the risk wasn't there and the reward was all that you were capitalizing

on. And so I mean, we actually did something that you're not supposed to do in the world of marketing, and we branded our third generation, the no weak skylight, and we brought a warranty to the table, a 10 year no leak, a product and labor warranty, 10 year comprehensive warranty. And that we think has really achieved what we were hoping to do, which is bring confidence back to the marketplace. And how did you like from, you know, from. Strategic standpoint, how

did you actually execute that? Was it just branding, or was there more, you know, technical input? No, no, great question. So the first and second generation products were actually very good products, and they weren't. We still have our first generation product, you know, a lot of them. We still replacing them today that are 4045, years old out in the marketplace, installed properly. You know, those things would perform quite well now. They just weren't very

forgiving. If you didn't install them properly, they'd come back to bite you, potentially. And so with the third generation product, we did something unique, I mean, so it was a ground up redesign of the product where we incorporated three redundant layers of protection. So the if you look at our current deck mount design, the first layer is an integrated deck seal. Call it a continuous mounting bracket that has a closed cell foam that serves really as the first layer

of protection. It does seal this thing down to the deck nice and tight with our third generation our current product, we now include an adhesive underlayment in the flashing kits, and that's something that with the first two generations, we expected the contractor to go source. And a lot of times, I mean, you know how that goes. If you're not supplying it, it may or may not get used. And quite honestly, if it's our older generation product and it was problematic, it's very similar to what

happened on my own house. It was never wrapped properly with underlayment, and like said, Velux, as a manufacturer, wasn't supplying that at the time, but it's always been in our instructions to do that, but you would have had to bring that to the table on your own. So with our current product, we provide that in the box, and then, of course, we have our engineered flashing systems. And if there's something that really has made vlogs, the world leader in skylights. It is that engineered

flashing system. It's, you know, nobody's got anything comparable to it. It's second to none, and it works very, very well when it's installed properly to where those first two layers really aren't, you know, you're hopefully not relying on them. They're there in the event that you do make an error. But like I said, our current stuff is performing very, very well.

We've had it in the marketplace now we're going on just over 15 years, and it speaks for itself in terms of just how few issues we've had, and even that that deck seal, it's, it's, it's sealed directly to the unit itself. And you're not putting any sort of sealant on that that that's just going straight onto your plywood, that is correct. So the first two generations had, like, brackets, mounting brackets, four or six brackets that you would screw

down to the deck, then you had a really rough, rough opening. And so our current generation product has a continuous L bracket, if you will. And we call it a deck seal, but it's a continuous bracket that serves that not only as the mounting bracket, but also as a seal down to the roof deck. On the underside of that is a closed cell phone gasket that seals nice and tight to the roof deck. I'm looking at the brochure that, sorry, Nick, go ahead.

No, I was gonna say, but so you have all the tech there and all the product, but when you say you're you're warranting the labor. How are like, I guess, where I'm going with this is, I think a lot of people hear product warranties, and there's, there is this kind of stigma that a product warranty means nothing, because the vendor is just going to come out and tell me it was installed wrong, and they're going to wash, wash their hands, and we've all dealt with it. Anyone that's listening

to this has dealt with that. So when you say there's a labor warranty, what's what is like? What is qualifying a a an issue to be covered under that warranty? No, no, that's fair. So yes, it does require that the product be installed per instruction. So the one thing I will say, and like I said, I've worked for V Lux 26 years, is, you know, if you're using a V Lux product and you have a problem with it, we're going to go out and help you. There's no question about

it. So I have, I have a leaking skylight, you Velux comes out, inspects it, and to in that point, they determine whether it was installed correctly or not correct. We'll usually try to engage the contract. The contractor is still involved, and sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't, but the first step is always to engage the contractor and say, hey, you know, understand, you're having a problem with one of our products. We'd like to come out,

you know, with you and take a look at it together. And you know, most of the time, unfortunately, it does come down to an installation issue, but most, most contractors are very thankful to have somebody that's knowledgeable come out and just kind of walk them through what they did wrong. Here's the few things that you got to correct, and the problem goes away. Well, you know, Wayne, I think that's, I think that's the key here, is, you know, you're absolutely right. A lot of guys are really

appreciate that someone comes out and inspects it right? So if it's an install error, like you're on site and saying, hey, you know, Nick, you installed this incorrectly, and you're going to point out what I did incorrectly, and I'm there and I want this to be fixed, and I'm thinking that you're going to come in and tell me it's a product thing, and we're going

to you. You know, hash this out. But come to find out, you know, oh, I installed something incorrectly, but you're pointing out exactly what it is, and I can address it immediately, rather than, you know, four layers of tar, you know, hoping that it eventually stops leaking, right? You know? And I think that going into it, where it's because I think about it in terms of their, you know, there's vendors that will say

they do cover warranty, I mean, material and labor. From a warranty perspective, they might just automatically, just pay the claim, and they're not coming on and understanding what the issue is, or they're gonna or they're just going to assume that it's installed correctly, or, Hey, you, you know, we'll give you, we'll give you a product and then prove to us that it was installed correctly. Instead, you guys are being proactive and

going out there and actually inspecting it. And I think that, I think that's the key here, is that, you know, you've put the technology in place to make sure that, you know, there's three steps to leak, but you're also standing behind it in the sense

of, hey, we'll come out. If there's an issue, we'll come out and we'll we'll either replace the thing and pay to have it replaced if it's a product failure, or we're going to work with your contractor and get this thing fixed, sure, and like so the good news is, with our current generation product, I mean, the number of service calls, if you will, that

we go on These days is significantly reduced. What's the number one issue you see number one issue we see with skylights, it used to be they weren't wrapped properly, and it would lead to condensation issues in colder climates. Today, with our current generation product that's still now that the adhesive under limits in the box. It's not the most common thing, but I would still say it's probably just folks that don't know how to properly step flash. You know where they think? I mean, Velux

used to use larger step 10s. And guys would think you'd go two and three courses of shingles for per step 10. Well, the whole, the whole concept of step flashing goes out the window

when you when you do that. So we've shortened them up now, you know, with the idea of helping guys out to understand that, you know, each course of shingle has its own respective Step 10, but it's amazing how many roofers, you know, our sales team trains and teaches how to roof, and I mean that sincerely, been on a roof with a lot of roofers that just didn't fully, you know, understand step flashing and the proper mechanism by which it

works. So I today that that's probably still the biggest issue we run into, and we look at as an opportunity right to engage a contractor teach them, you know, the right way to do things. And, you know, turn it, turn somebody that was maybe had a problem with the skylight, into an advocate form. Because once they do learn the proper installation, and it's not hard.

I mean, I can do a, you know, a properly step flash skylight, just as fast as any other type of skylight, and know that it's going to last 2530, years without giving you a problem. And once you give that contractor that's, you know, not really educated on proper step flashing and how to do it right. That knowledge, they become an advocate for us. I'm over here nerding out on the installation manual and the step flashing details. I mean, like, see the thing that blows my

mind? It's windows. It's like, obviously, there's more windows than skylights in the world, but I guarantee you, there's just as many window installations that leak as skylights. It's just that, like, people don't see it well, no, it becomes above you, right? Like, correct, but like, I guarantee like. And if you walk a new construction house, I I don't want to throw a number out there, but there's a

lot that I see that the windows are installed incorrectly. And the stakes may not be quite as high because it's a it's a vertical plane rather than a horizontal or semi horizontal plane. But like you guys, get a bad rap for your product, just like any other window company does, because somebody doesn't follow installation instructions, and I'm looking at your installation instructions, and I'm not a roofer, I've cut in skylights into a roof, I've cut in roof vents, I've cut in

sun tunnels. From you guys, like your installation instructions are dialed and tell you exactly how to do it, like, if you're a roofer, this should not be that hard, right? And honestly, like said, Gentlemen, I mean, we sell hundreds of 1000s of skylights a year, and you know, we've got a pretty small sales team, you know, in terms of field support sales reps, you know, about 50 employees out there in the field

selling, and we got other field personnel. But in terms of, you know, territory reps for hundreds and hundreds of 1000s of skylights that we sell every year. So again, I want to make sure we're, you know, very clear that. The issues that were really common in the 70s, 80s, even into the early 90s, with these new generation of skylights, the problems are very, very few.

Yeah, I think a lot. I know I have my roofer out to a job where they had a couple of skylights installed, and one of the issues they were running into where it's like, you guys are creating a no caulk system. And they were caulking the keyways like, up against the skylight too, which is just trapping all of that dirt and then water. And he's like, this is one of like, I see this all the time, or they'll cut their

shingles too close to the skylight itself. And he's like, You have to give this some room and do not caulk this area around them, which, again, is like user error. And like I said that there's a whole new generation of roofers coming into the the industry today that you know don't have the the biases of the past, and I say the bias where they feel like they've got to break out a tube of caulk or a bucket of bull and

start Tarn around it, but you're absolutely right. A lot of the problems that do exist out there from guys that you know think they're doing something to help the situation, when really what they're doing is, you know, causing problems. You know, manufacturers, you know, provide detailed instructions for a reason, and generally speaking, not generally, almost always, if you follow the instructions, you're going to be just fine. And that's definitely true with our products.

They're usually the first thing to go in the garbage. I don't need them. Wait, what's the screw for? I got one extra screw here. Now I'm going to open up the instructions see what's going on. You mentioned that you're a tinkerer. You enjoy reading. I think it was funny. You mentioned that was the Britannica encyclopedia like you recently bought, I guess, not that recently, but you bought the entire catalog of encyclopedias because it's Someday you may feel like you

want to read them. So hopefully there's a few listeners out there that can appreciate this. I mean, I was a kid in the, you know, the 70s and the 80s, and we did have that World Book Encyclopedia on the shelf, you know. And, you know, when you had to go do a research project, you know, that was the first place you turned as a kid, right? I mean, I, I grew up in the 90s. We used it. I feel like they would try and sell them door to door also. Well, they were

so that was the thing in the 70s and 80s. And obviously my parents bought in hook, line and sinker, because we had the complete set on the shelf in the office. But, you know, as a kid, you know, I would literally get law, I mean, every topic under the sun and, of course, the World Book had great pictures, you know. So you'd start in on a school, you know, research project of some kind that you were supposed to be doing. Next thing, you know, you're reading in all these random topics of

different things that you just didn't even know about. So I really enjoyed that as a kid, and some of my buddies have blown me so much crap, because it was, I think was 2009 or 10, the World Book, or not World Book, the Encyclopedia Britannica had announced that they were no longer going to print that, you know, the number of sales had dropped off to the point where it just wasn't profitable to do a printed

edition. I think it was less than 10,000 volumes were produced the last series, and they were having troubles even getting rid of those, because the internet exists exactly. I fully understand that. But so, yeah, I indulged and bought the whole collection, actually sitting right across from me here. But have the last, last 2010 version of the Encyclopedia Britannica, and one of these days I'll hopefully have some time to sit around and read

it. You said that at some point when you're when you're old and possibly decrepit, hopefully your eyes still work well enough to sit down and read that. Yeah, yeah. You also mentioned that you did a couple of marathons. I have so for anyone that's been a traveling salesman, like I said, I was a territory rep for four years, and that wasn't too bad. Then I took a promotion to a district manager, which had me

travel in six states. So then you start doing some traveling, and I started putting on some weight, and, yeah, you know, just as a way to try to keep the weight off and still be able to eat what I wanted. I start, I started running, and got into, you know, doing five ks and 10 Ks. And once you get into a running group, you know, and you know, connect with a bunch of like minded individuals, the next thing you know, they're pushing you to run half marathons. So you start running

half marathons. And then, you know, the question always comes up if you're in one of these running groups is, you know, how do you run a marathon? Or, you know, and you don't want to answer no. So next thing you do, sign up, start running marathons. So yeah, like I said, I enjoy the five Ks, 10 Ks, the halves. I've done a probably 2025, of those. And those you can kind of tackle with. A whole lot of training, not

recommended, but you can get through it. And I tried a similar approach with my first marathon, which was the San Diego I've got a thing for San Diego. It's just a beautiful city, and it kicked my butt, quite honestly, at what mile were you like? I didn't do enough training. Well, the longest training run I think I did for that one was probably, it was the half marathon leading up to it. So, a 13, but I never got into those, you know, 16, 1718, mile training runs that

you're supposed to do. Yeah, that's when it screws you up, yeah. Oh, for sure. And like, so, yeah, once I got up to that, like, you know, you hit the wall. And it was playing around that 1718, miles, yeah, and then it's just grit right to get through it. And so lesson learned, I re attempted a decade later, and took on Chicago, and I ran the Chicago Marathon. And little, much, much better experience. I wasn't struggling as bad, but I had another decade of age on me as well. And that's the

thing. It's like, alright, so you went from being 30 to being 40. There's a big difference between 30 and 40, even training aside, for sure, for sure. And I've already passed my 50th, and I did not undertake a third marathon. So do 60 in the cards? I don't know. I'm also a snow skier, and I'm trying to, I'm trying to preserve the knees a little bit like out, like downhill, yeah, try to get out to Colorado every year, somewhere out west, but so I really enjoy

running is brutal on the knees. It's like, it's, I mean, especially long distance, it's just like your legs are just absolutely toast, you know? And it's like a lot of things. I mean, if you talk to an orthopedic surgeon, they can tell if you're a runner, a consistent runner, or not. So your body doesn't adapt. Well, they would tell

you, not necessarily, as long as you train properly. And I think that's the catch is, you know, I've, you know, never conditioned myself or train consistently enough to be going those kind of distances. And at this point in my life, I'm not sure I want to commit the time. I mean, it takes a lot of time to training properly for a marathon in the morning or after work. Generally, I'm a morning runner before the heat and humidity. I live in Indianapolis, and we get hot and humid in the summer.

Yeah. So early morning runs is kind of gets your day off to a great start. But again, my main motivation was just to keep the weight off and try to stay healthier. Did you ski as a kid? No, honestly, unless you want to count the hill in our backyard where we strapped on some of those Sears, those really skinny skis that will spring on the back. But no, the first time I went skiing was high school, actually, yeah, and my, my uncle took us up to Boyne, Michigan, Northern Michigan, and my

mother's house, all of, I think, 350, feet of vertical. But to us, that was a monster. You know, yeah, my family honestly didn't travel much growing up. We weren't a vacationing type family, just because, again, the commitment to the hardware store and the retail lifestyle, if you will. But once we went up to Michigan, I was hooked. I really and then we started. I joined a fraternity in college and joined the Ball State Ski Club, which had us getting on a Greyhound bus and going out west for the

first time. And after that, I was hooked. And so just about every year I'm going somewhere to get some skiing in where's your favorite place to ski in Colorado? I need to go back in my mind, I would say Steamboat Springs. And I say that because it's a little bit off the beaten path, but, but rumor has it, it's not so much off the beaten path anymore, and it's gotten pretty, quite popular. But I love the tree

skiing. It's known for its skiing through the trees, and it wasn't as crowded as all your your centrally located resorts in Colorado, but so I think finally that. But, you know, there's not a bad one out there. I like them all. I went out to Whistler two years ago. I went to school for a minute in Colorado, so I skied a bunch out there, but I went to Whistler. Have you been I have not. That's on my bucket list for sure. Yeah. So it's expensive, but super cool. It's not like a ton

of elevation change is just expansive. And then, like, there's no on and off piece, you can just, you take a lift up, and you can ski whatever you want. Like, if you want to go on the trees, you can go on the trees if you don't want to. And you could ski across the whole mountain, side to side. Super cool. Um. One of my favorite places I've skied before, and, like, absolutely beautiful as well. It's just, I don't know I I don't ski as much as I used to. Maybe I'll ski once a year

with kids. It's tough. They never started skiing. It's expensive. But I feel like, like, every time I get back out skiing again, it's scary. For the first little bit. I'm like, this is sketch, gotta get your ski legs back, about two legs, like roof legs, roof, feet, I don't know, like I said, it's just, it's one of those I look forward to that week where I just get away and kind of unplug and get up in the mountains. And I mean, if you, if you've done

it, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, I encourage everyone to give it a go, because it's beautiful out there. You know, I forgot that you mentioned also, now that I'm looking to kind of close things out, is that didn't you get your pilot's license? I did, trying to. I did. So why anymore? Or No, no,

it's a very expensive hobby. Yeah, yeah, no. So through a the high school I went to, they had a ground school you could take the I grew up, when I say building stuff, I mean, I was really into the remote controlled RC airplanes and cars and boats, you know, the gas powered stuff. So, like, from third, fourth grade on, I was, you know, building, you know, model airplanes. And so that's really where my interest took,

you know, you know, took off and in terms of aviation. And then there was an airport down the street from my house that was looking for line crew summer. So small, little local airports do a lot more volume or business in the summer months, and they take

on some part time. Help. Time help. So I went on in this is my freshman, sophomore year of high school, and I was still doing some lawn care at the time as well, but I was working there part time, doing line crew, basically fueling airplanes, washing wax and airplanes, and then on weekends, I'd work the front desk, you know, collect the money for them. But everything I made there I was spending trying to get my wings,

get my pilot's license. So which I did do, just after my 18th birthday, got about 125 hours, and quickly realized that it's, it is a very expensive hobby, yeah. And as much as I loved it, it's just not something I've continued, but it was great experience, and just that, again, that the knowledge and education that came with going through that process is pretty cool.

Did you ever, sorry, Nick, did you ever see the old arts? Well, they're not RC planes, but like, where they would fly them on strings in a circle. Oh, that's where I started. That's all right. I didn't want to, like, date you, because, like, I know they're old, but there's some guys that I know who are, like, into built like, you could build them yourselves, or you could get kits. And I'd never seen them before. But then I went to, like, where we ride dirt bikes, and they were out in

the field, flying them around in a circle. So it like, if I were to explain to somebody, and I, I explained this to him, and he actually got like, bent out of shape that I I compared it to this. But like to me, it kind of looked like you're flying a kite, but there's an RC plane with like a prop on the end of it. You have like two strings right in the plane. You start the motor, and then it you, you just go in a circle, like,

around and around. And I told him that, like, as I was telling him that I explained it to my daughter once, and he's like, yeah, it's not really like a kite at all. And I was like, I don't need to insult you, but that's what it looked like to me. Well, I assume they're still out there. I mean, this is going to age, but, but back in the 70s, I mean, they call them control lines, yeah. And, you know, they used to have just a little handle, two strings that would go and attach the the airplane

and Cox engines. They were real small, little nitro engines. And again, I grew up on a cul de sacs. We had a little circle at the end of our, you know, our driveway, and you would just stand in the middle of the middle of the circle, and this thing would just go in circles, and it's so loud, and just it would go up and down and that. But that's where it started. You know, I was, I mean, I probably 789, years old when we were

playing with those things. And it just graduated from there to the, you know, I call it the real deal, where you got the remote control and the bigger engines and but when I say, age me, I remember in grade school, I went to a Catholic grade school, first through eighth. And, you know, remember science fair projects? Yeah. So I was always, you know, bringing the the engines in and things like that, and doing those for

science for projects. But I, you know, this would never fly today, but I would literally lug like a 63 inch wingspan airplane to school, a gal a gallon of gastro, amazing. Yeah, no, it was Nitro. But, you know, it said gasoline with a pump, and it would sit over there at the corner of the classroom, and then recess, you know, if I wasn't playing kickball or whatever, I take my plane out. And, you know. Teach all the kids how to fly this thing at recess. But so I was really into

it. And like I said, that led to, you know, my first, actually second sophomore, junior year, working at that airport. But I, like, still, I had a nitro RC car when I was little. I, like, mowed a bunch of lawns, saved a bunch of money, and the smell of like the Nitro when they were flying the planes, I was like, Oh, my God. That brings me back to when I was, like, 12 years old. It has

a very, very distinct spell. I can't imagine flying them in a cul de sac, though, with like I that would have, I'm sure the parents were like, Jesus Wayne's got the freaking plane out again, because it's just like, every time it goes around, there's so loud. Well, the control lines we would do there, once we got into the bigger planes, we'd go out to a big field, yeah, you know, like the control lines are just like, non stop. Every five seconds you

get the plane just flying by. So loud. That's funny though. Yeah, I, I've seen them twice, and he was, he was told me about him. He's like, Yeah, just a super old, like, antique, antique RC planes before. They obviously had radio control planes. But I didn't want to date you and say, have you seen these before? But I'm glad that you did, and I don't look like I'm crazy. Yeah. And I would assume they're still out there, but don't, yeah, sure. I think that there's people who are, like, Die Hard

hobbyists with them. So the last question I have for you, you've, you've experienced a fair amount of life, right? You've taken risks, you figured out your path in life. You mentioned you've had a handful of really terrible losses. But what matters the most to you now, at this stage of the game, where you are in life, I would say, like I said, I'm 53 for the record, been at V Lux,

26 years, settled in. I've got a wonderful girlfriend that lives with me, been together a little over three years now, just committed to we got a couple dogs now, so we're thinking about settling down, which is, you know, a big step for a guy like me. That's, yeah, you know. And like I said, I've been single off and on, but, you know, looking at that, that next step possibly. But you know, it's life passes you by really

fast. Yeah, and careers pass you by really fast. I feel very fortunate to have landed at a wonderful company that values its employees, that builds great products that are useful to society, that, you know, I can feel good about what I'm out talking about and preaching about every day. And you know, what's moving forward for me? I think what's I'm going to call it work, life balance early in my career, part of it's the traveling. You know, having as a district manager, I was

responsible for six states. I'm now in a new role, actually, as of about a year and a half ago, where I have more territory. I've actually got 15 states, but I'm working exclusively with skylight specialists. So I went from, you know, a number of reps working with all kinds of customers to really focus in on our best customer base in terms of specialists that live and breathe skylights, and working with them to be more efficient at what they do, more effective at what they do. It's a two part

role. One is helping them develop their businesses to where they're running a successful skylight specialist business, and then two recruiting new specialists in areas where we still need and there's a number of markets and cities where we still don't have a specialist. One of the biggest challenges we have at Velux is we generate, we spend millions of dollars in advertising generating interest for

skylights. If you just if you watch HGTV, for example, you'll see that we're involved in all of their major projects, and it generates a lot of consumer interest. And you know, they may reach out to their roofer, remodel or builder, and depending on, you know, where they're at with skylights, they may or may not support that consumer getting that product, which is unfortunate, because, you know, and so we welcome the opportunity to work with more roofers for modelers and

builders. But one of the things we're trying to do is build out a skylight specialist network, where, when that consumer goes to our website and says, you know, I want to add a sun tunnel. I want to add a skylight, they're not calling, you know, a roofer necessarily, that says, Well, do you need a new roof with that? Yeah, you know. And then if they don't, it

can be a kind of a dead end. It's where we have, we have certified roofers, certified remodels, certified builders and specialists out there on our website that these guys, these consumers, then can, you know, reach out and actually have a good experience getting getting our product installed, and get.

And install them in a good way. Yeah, I think that's super important, especially with what you do, because at the end of the day, like, it's similar to windows, where you get a bad rap if it leaks and it's your fault, right? It's vlex is fault, where it's like, it's not. So you have to ensure that you are aligning with people who understand what they have to do to dial that install so that that's not

coming back and looking bad on your end. And I think that that's somewhat of the path and the key to growth, to make sure that you're protecting yourself and you're protecting your clients, and just, you know, creating a good image around what you're doing, yeah, but back to your initial question. Like I said, I thoroughly enjoy my career of eloc, so I don't see any changes

pending there. I'm 26 years in. I hope to retire, impressive, and it's not that unique of ELx, quite honestly, there's the gentleman that hired me retired after 32 years, yeah, and we have a number of folks that are 3035, years with the company. I get. One of our biggest challenges, actually, is, you know, our sales force is aging, and there's a lot of guys like me out there. And you know, we need those new up and comers to

join us and hopefully carry on the torch. But, you know, I, I do hope that I can put in another, you know, 710, years with this company, retire and then really get back. You know, that work life balance. Yes, I said, this new role affords me a little bit more opportunity to do that than my previous role as a manager with direct reports and employees, and I'm just more focused. I'm not just pulled in so many different directions. Yeah, hopefully you get a chance to start reading the encyclopedia.

Sam, I don't rush on that, but a couple other things I would like to share just with the group. Yeah, absolutely. So a little bit about Velox. If you're not familiar with the company, the name Velux, I'm curious if you fellas know where it originates. Do not ve for ventilation and Lux, the Latin word for light, ventilation and light. So did I never guess that. Yeah. And like said, it's a unique company, all the way down to the naming.

We're a third generation privately held, family owned business, but the majority of the shares and the ownership is owned by a charitable foundation, the villain Conrad Musin Foundation, and I do like to share that so you know, when consumers out there are buying our products. Contractors are using our products. A lot of the profits that are generated from those purchases goes back into charitable getting, which, again, I think it's a unique setup in the way that we're

structured. We just celebrated 50 years here in the United States, April 4, 50 years ago, yeah, first started selling roof windows here in the United States, and so that's kind of a big deal. We're currently distributing over 40 countries. So you know, we are the world's leader in skylights and roof windows. And this year, we're doing something kind of

innovative. We're all about value, right? We've launched something called the skylight system, and as of the seventh of April here, just last week, we launched what we're calling the skylight system. And we've always sold a system which is right, the skylight, the flashing kit. But in the past, shades or blinds were an additional item, electronic

controls and things were an add on item. And what we know from research is the the fact of the matter is, if a consumer gets a skylight with electronic controls, you know whether it be a vending sky that they can open at the touch of a button versus getting out the old crank rod. I was just thinking about that as you were talking and we've done research into this. You know, they don't get used as much, but when you can just push a remote control, they get used

regularly. And then the importance of shades, and shades bring a lot of value. And in the past, they were optional, and it's an it's amazing. You know, our shade ratio, it's paying out where you're at in the country, was 10 to 20% or so. But when our reps were involved, and we kind of learned this through COVID, you know, during COVID, obviously the the world shut down. And instead of laying off our employees, we said, hey, how

can we keep our salespeople busy? And we quickly adapted to the situation by saying, hey, let's, let's have our reps do consultations, virtual consultations. And so we put out there for consumers and contractors, anybody that really wanted to talk to us that, hey, you know, if you're considering skylights, you know, here's a opportunity. Engage with an

expert of Elex, you know, representative. And when we got involved in those projects firsthand, and most of our experience prior to that was working, calling on the trades and with COVID, we started connecting directly with the consumer. And we're saying, Yeah, I've been thinking about adding, you know, skylights to this remodeling project, whether it be kitchen, bath and they, you know, our reps would kind of

handhold. That project from start to finish, a lot of times, putting them in touch with a contractor, because they had struggled even find one that wanted to, you know, maybe do skylights. But what we found is our venting ratio increased significantly, our shade ratio. And when I say significantly, I mean it would go from 20 30% up to 70 plus percent, our shade

ratios would jump from that 10 to 20% up to 70 80% Wow. And once the consumer was knowledgeable on the benefits, you know, the of the shade, whether it be light control, the energy efficiency gains and whatnot, they would they would select it. They would go with it. So as of April 7 this year, we are rolling out the skylight system where all standard glass skylights from V locks our deck mount and per mount products

will come standard with an integrated shade. And in the past, that was an add on option that you'd pay, you know, upwards of 450, $500 for now that it's integrated as part of our production process, that cost has been significantly reduced, so we're adding a lot more value to the product with this introduction. So, and that's just the standard moving forward. That's not like you guys are running a special that just that is that's amazing. That

is correct. And it's not the first time we've, we've kind of done this. I mean, I like to, I'm from the Midwest, so bear with me on the car analogy, if you think about it, back in the 70s and 80s, you know, if you bought a car, you know, do you want power windows? Do you want an automatic Do you want intermittent wipers? You know, you'd have all these add ons, and now today, it just comes standard, right? You get power windows, you get, you know, intermittent wipers, you know,

almost a backup camera. Now, backup cameras sunroofs closer to home. I mean, they're pretty much just standard. So we're kind of taking a page out of that book, if you will, because it makes sense. It gives a consumer a better skylight experience. Soon improves the energy efficiency significantly. So it's a, you know, a new direction we're taking this year, and I think it brings a lot of value to the product. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that totally changes the game.

And I think that, like you said, it's one of those things where if you give them the option A lot of times, and the car analogy is perfect, where it's like, if I were given the option, I mean, I just bought an excavator, and if I were given the option for some of the finishes they put on it, I probably would have said no, but when I went there and it was all fit out like that, I was like, Yeah, give it to me, yeah. And

much better product, to be honest. So I think that that's definitely the move and the right way to go, because at the end of the day, when you, when you amortize the cost of that upgrade over the lifespan of that skylight, it's pennies. It makes sense well, and actually it's the I mean, the insulation guys that sell insulation are pretty good at this. I mean insulation and

upgrading your windows and doors, right? Improving your energy efficiency of your envelope are the few improvements you can make to your home that actually pay for themselves over time. And the same is true with skylights. And we use a very energy efficient we use Cardinal Lowey 366 glass. So you know the glass, it's still dual pane. It's laminated. It's very energy efficient. It's most energy efficient. Dual pane

glass you can really buy today, right? So the shades are, you know, partly about controlling the light when you want, which is nice, but still, glass is the weakest point in a building's envelope, and by adding that shade, you're increasing the U value by about 45% Yeah, sore heat gain by 18, 19% or so. So there's still significant savings to be had by having that shade on there. Yeah, that's awesome. That's really cool. I'm excited to see, see what's in store.

Wait. We appreciate not only you being on the podcast, but Velux being a partner to the podcast. It's you guys have been great, and you've certainly supported a lot of our projects in the last decade of doing this. And you know, like I mentioned earlier, it's one of those things that it's kind of standard for us. We see the value in bringing in natural light. And as you say, you know, you know, ventilated air. But we appreciate you.

Well, hey, we appreciate the opportunity to be on and congratulations to you guys for the success you've had with the podcast. Like I said, I've had a chance to listen to quite a few episodes, and I think you guys bring a valuable service to the industry. Your open minded format and the topics you dig into, you're really edgy. Caving, I'll call it the traits.

And some of this stuff was this knowledge that you guys are sharing, as you guys know, it was hard to come by when you're out there, you know, trying to grow a business in this industry. And so thank you for what you guys are doing and continued success. Yeah, absolutely. It was really, it was really great to meet you, and it was very interesting to hear and read and see your whole story. So I appreciate all the insight. You're very welcome. And if anyone is trying to get some

additional insights on Velox, please reach out to us. Velux usa.com, is our domestic website, and through there, you can reach out and get a hold of your local representative, and we'd love the opportunity to work with anybody that's interested in learning more about skylights. And then we'll get you Wayne's number, because he's only he said seven more years. So we gotta get we gotta flood him for the next seven years. All right, Wayne, we appreciate your time.

All right. Thank you, fellas, thanks, I, I really enjoyed his whole backstory. Not everyone get to see his whole backstory, but just like soup, I don't you were flying through it. I was like, I there was so many points, but I was just letting you roll. I was like, there's so much here. Yeah, I mean, there's just a ton. And he, he just provided us with so much insight. And I think that that's what we've been looking to do, just to dig into more, more of the the human side of

the business, and less of the transactional aspect. Obviously, he is. He works for Velux, which is a partner of ours. So if you have any needs for skylights or questions, we can put everyone

in touch again. Vluxusa.com but just super cool to hear his story and how much he provided us, how much insight and backlog he gave us, or backstory to his upbringing, what, what introduced him to the trades, how he got started, his path into this industry, and it was a very indirect path that took him to where he is today, but at the the end of the day, you look back and it all makes sense, and it all worked out. So I appreciate him taking the time and really just sharing his

story with us. I think I mean on that note, you know, if someone's listening to this and stuck in a job or just unsure of what their path might be, you know, what would you want to say to them? I think that's something that you can take away from this episode, right, thinking about, you know, how can you support someone that you know might be in that position? Did I lose you? No, sorry. I was,

he went dead quiet. I was, I was looking at the intro, and then when it got really quiet for a while, I was like, I feel like he wanted me to bounce back. That's okay. Well, no, I think, to wrap it up, you know, there's a few things that I think came out of this podcast that being one of them. But also, if you've seen the long game, you've taken risks, you've grieved losses, found new meaning. You know, a prompt that we would give you is to sit and think about what

matters most to you now. And I think, you know, we kind of touched on it with, obviously, the loss of Wayne's brother, which is terrible. But you know how that perspective can bring, you know, new meaning to life, and you know, really allows you to focus on what matters the most. But yeah, thank you to Wayne for being open and honest, and you know in the why behind the work that really matters. So we appreciate you guys listening. As always. Head over to modern craftsman.co, make

sure you sign up for our newsletter. You're getting way more than just this episode. In the the inside look at each episode, but I share some more in depth and transparent thoughts Monday morning. It's becoming my new favorite thing to do, and you guys have been amazing with some feedback. But if you want, if you want an inside look at that, you got to sign up For the newsletter. Yeah, we'll see you next week. You I trust my mama. You're no match for my bad karma. You.