A lot of people's crutch, oh, you have to be patient. Things will happen when they happen. Sure, there is patience and I will allow things to happen, but I'm not gonna sit back and hope it happens. You know, I think that's where people get confused, is like, I'm not It's not that I'm impatient, it's that I'm gonna push as hard as I can and allow things to happen, not sit by the wayside and hope that, Hey, you want a couple million bucks to build a really cool house and see if it works
like that, just not how it works. What's up? Guys? Welcome back to the modern craftsman podcast today. We're talking about my builder 20 meeting that I was on last week. We're also going to be talking about the impacts of scaling a business, stuff that both Tyler and I are going through right now, good
and bad. And we're going to kind of uncover all of that here in this episode, and then also the difference between having good cash flow and just good equity, whether that's cash equity or emotional equity, and what it takes to really just continue to push and move forward. So without further ado, it's just Tyler and I we're gonna get right into it. This podcast is
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guys. If you paid attention to the last week's episode, you'll know that Harnish workwear is now a partner of ours. We're super excited to launch that partnership. Head over to harnishworkware.com up top, you'll see a modern craftsman link. You can hop on there and get an exclusive promo code for a substantial percentage off, and that's for their Creator one and pioneer one, that created one other pants that Tyler and I were chatting about, and if you saw us at JLC, we were wearing
them. And then also their Pioneer one, which is their armored hoodie. But head over to Harnish workwear.com make sure you click monogram up top and you'll get that discount code activated. Speaking the JLC. We just finished. We just got back from JLC. That was a that was a whirlwind of a trip, bro, that was we, I don't even, I don't remember. Oh yeah, you spent the night before. I was like, did you come in? Now we went in the morning, but it got postponed if we
did not see you at JLC. Just believe us, we were there, we we went and we went and we were caffeinated and we were just we flew around that, that, that show afterwards, like, and on my midweek where I was like, Yo, if we seemed short and didn't have time to really say hi or like, got done doing something and didn't have time to talk. We were not trying to be rude. It's just we had a lot lined up and not a lot of time. Yeah, I mean, we've done, I mean, we've done JLC so many different
ways over the last couple years. And this year, you know, we basically took a step out of speaking and doing education, and spent the time networking, meeting with. Partners, chatting with some of you guys, and just kind of trying to experience the show. And then, of course, I try to book a two hour lunch that, you know, I completely failed at, and we missed lunch. But, you know, we had a bunch of interesting conversations and
chatted with a handful of vendors. And you know, one of them was sash CO and I think, you know, they're, you know, their booth was not product centric, but we're just gonna put that aside for a moment. What they're trying to do with the trade teachers and IBS, I find super interesting. But Tyler, you and I chatted offline after that, we post something to
our Instagram account. You can go, go check it out. But I think that they are, they're certainly on to something, right with this whole, you know, awareness around shop teachers and, you know, I think about it as how to, how does the modern craftsman play into the role here? And how do we help, you
know, increase that awareness? Yeah, so we met with them at their booth, and we discussed this program that they're they're really it in the beginning stages of developing this and trying to find out how this is going to work and what this direction looks like for them. But they are looking to shed light on shop teachers, trade school instructors, and position them to be able to get some scholarships for themselves, for the programs, for their
students. And what they're doing is they're looking to get teachers sent down to, I believe IBS is going to be in Orlando this year. So they're looking for people to adopt or sponsor a teacher and get them down to Orlando for this meetup, for this dinner, which then they can have a potential to win a scholarship. So if you are interested in hearing more about this, you can reach directly out to them. You can either send
them a D DM on Instagram. You can reach out to us. We'll put some links for them in the show notes, but they're looking for people who are just looking to nominate sponsor help get these teachers down to Orlando to build a network of shop teachers and people who are dealing with the younger generation, and then again, putting them in a pool to win a scholarship for their school, for their program, for students who are looking to carry on education in the trade. So it's a really cool program.
Again, it's in the infancy. They're looking to develop it, looking to partner with people to make it work. But I think that, like big picture, they are definitely on to something. They're just looking to try and find more context or contacts to develop and build this, this program to be a little bit more robust than what it is right now. And if you guys aren't familiar with Sashko, you probably are familiar with big stretch or maybe exact color or Lexile.
They're some of the products that they represent. You know, they were at the show, but I know for us, we've been using exact color for all of our, you know, color match millwork, caulking. But, yeah, I love what they're doing, you know, above and beyond just, you know, putting product out there and really trying to advocate for our industry. And that's
something that is needed. Tyler, you, you know, later in the show, we talk about you building a home, but one of the products that they had at the show was the siding that material that you're using, right? Yeah, so one of our partnerships is with CertainTeed. So we were discussing potential collaborations with them and products with them. And we were looking at one thing, and it was nice, but I wasn't completely sold on it. And then we started
looking into some of their cedar shake products. And they make an actual individual cedar shake, and I actually it's a cedar impressions product, and a lot of their cedar impressions products are coming in panels, but this, which they said, has been around for a while. I guess you just don't see it quite as much because it installs like a traditional cedar shake siding, where you're putting up one piece at a time. So there's various sizes. They have a color gradient on them that you can
mix and match and really get the look that you are going for. But it's called Cedar impressions, individual five inch sawmill shingles. And what I really like about it, and like sold me on
it, is one this is what I do for a living. There's certain aspects of my life that I'm good with, spending my time in certain aspects that I'm not and with what's going on with quality of wood, exterior products and maintenance, and how much work you're having to go through, and our budget, and what fits our program, and how I want to be spending our time, and how much I want to invest in this project like this fits the
bill from a budget perspective. From a looks perspective, from a maintenance perspective, so I'm not having to spend all of my time constantly recoding cedar, but it's really cool because it's individual shakes that get put up. And you don't need grooved trim. You don't need j channel, because it's individual pieces. It's not expanding and contracting on these long lace of vinyl siding so you can butt them right up to your trim boards, and it's a very traditional look without the
maintenance. We're also going to be working with a lot of their PVC trim products for the exterior. So really excited to be working with the Gen Jen in the team there. But as soon as I saw this product, I was like, okay, that definitely is something that I want to use. I like the installate, like it's a bit more time consuming, but for me, it's more of a traditional install. And again, it looks more like a traditional shake, just without the maintenance and the durability issues. So really
excited for them. We looked at a bunch of their other products, some of their exterior sidings they have. They have shingles they have, you know, Grace, vicore underlayment, vicore ENVs for the exterior, which is an adhered membrane for the outside of the house. So a ton of different products, a ton of
opportunity that we have to work with them. And a really cool booth, which you get to see a lot of the products that I'm looking to use on our own house, yeah, not only that, but they, you know, they do a lot of product demos, like walking through the installation and fun fact. But they're, you know, they're, they're, quote, unquote,
standard vinyl siding. And you're gonna hear me correctly, because I asked the question 17 times, but it withstands 200 mile an hour winds, yeah, which is crazy to me, because I'm like, I didn't think anything did. I don't think anything could hold up to 200 mile an hour winds, but just something that, just to go back to one point you made, you know, you say that it's been around for a while, and maybe haven't
noticed. I almost would argue that you probably haven't noticed, because you wouldn't have thought it was vinyl siding. Yeah, and I think you know not necessarily certainty, but I've seen some of the cedar panel siding, and I'll never forget there was this house that was built on the street from one of my first homes that I ever bought, and you could tell they were, like, two foot by two foot panels, and you would just see
the pattern repeat. And we were, I was siding my house. I ended up using a, you know, a clab board type vinyl, but I was going to do the cedar. And I called the builder, yeah, that built that house. And I was like, Hey, I'm just wondering what kind of cider citing you, you used on it. And he goes, it looks great, doesn't it? I'm like, No, I'm actually calling because I don't want to use that see the I can see the pattern in it. I wasn't trying to be a dick, but I was like, I just
don't want that same pattern. But he, I remember, he never actually gave me the answer, because, probably, because I probably hung up with you at that point. Yeah, he's probably like, all right, buddy. No, dude, it looks it looks really cool. Like I said, it's all individual. Shake, so it has the spacing between them. It's all
alternating with it. There's no pattern. And again, for me, like the big thing is up against the trims, where you don't have that grooved or pocketed PVC or j channel, so you just put it up there with, I think it's like an eighth inch expansion gap. So it's super, super natural. Yeah, it's a good look. But yeah, you were mentioning their monogram siding. So that's actually on sale. I The dates might be April 10 through June 25 that might do
that's from two we are a week ago. But if you install a bunch of their product. Get a hold of your supplier, because they are giving you a substantial kickback on that product over the next month. So check them out. You April, 14 through June, 30. I was close. There you go. Your brother was there too, yeah. So I brought my brother works for LP smart side. Now he's been there for about a year. So we stopped in his
booth. I actually think that he wasn't supposed to be working at that point, but he showed up, showed up and showed us around some of their exterior products, which are really cool. I think Doug used them on his build up in New Hampshire. He did, and so did. And Doug from motif, Oh, yeah. So you
also use their their siding, um, it's funny. One of the things I noticed because they forever, they've been doing the booth with the big five pound sledge hammer, and, you know, and it wasn't there this time, and they just had this tiny little hammer. And I was like, what? I wonder why they don't have the five pound sledge like, it was always, like, so impactful. And
the guy running the booth was like, you don't need it. It the other the competitor version breaks without a five pound sledge, so you don't really need to prove that it's that much stronger. But one of the things I really I like about what they're doing with the smart side and what I where we experience. At Doug motifs house is that, you know, you're seeing
more and more of this exterior insulation. You're seeing more and more vertical battens, and you're seeing a lot more of this siding where it doesn't sit totally against the sheathing, and you end up having this hollow spot be, you know, every 12 to maybe 24 inches, and it's just more susceptible to to, you know, the material breaking and, you know, and seeing at their booth like that, material did not, you know, it did not take a lot of material to snap, versus the smart side, which was super
stable. But more impressively was the weight. And I think I'll never forget, I did a hearty, maybe cut that out. I did a cement board siding project years ago when I first started my business, and I did it alone. And, yeah, and anyone that's hung you know cement siding alone knows how you get a walk with your arms, basically your entire wingspan, to prevent the
siding from breaking. And in a few years later, I end up installing a project with the smart side, and I remember that being one of the biggest benefits, not to mention the weight, and just like the wear and tear on your body and climbing up a ladder, it was just it was a much nicer product to use. Yeah. So for me, like their product is, like their biggest competitor is something like a traditional cement based siding. The LP smart side is an engineered wood. It It looks
like an OSB product, but it is not. It's intended to be outside. It is, you know, you're not going to have issues like a like a plywood that you're leaving out in the water. One of the demonstrations that wasn't a formal demonstration they showed is when we broke through the cementitious siding, they poured water down on the table, and that cement siding fully wicks up the water immediately, and then they took a cut piece of the LP smart side and put it in the same puddle of water, and it
doesn't wake up any water. So really neat to see, again, from an installation perspective, from a health perspective, with installing and not having to cut through cement based siding and the specialized tooling and the expansion and contraction with it really a neat product if you're, if you're in that market for more of the cement based product, but are looking for alternative options, you can definitely check them out. They
have accompanying trim and everything else. They have a ton of pre finished options that you can you can check out, but again, that's an LP smart side product.
If you guys aren't already part of our newsletter, you guys didn't see this, you should sign up, but I'm gonna read an email or summarize an email that we had or I had, sent out this morning, something I've been trying to do every Monday is just kind of what's on my mind, what's going on, and share with you guys and and first and foremost, everyone that is on the newsletter, dude, we get a ton of great feedback, and I appreciate you guys writing back saying, hey, this really hit
home, because that's really what the intent is. I've been doing this with my my team internally, and really just talking about the business and where we're headed, and realize that there's stuff that I'd love to just chat about on a broader scale. So I actually talked about last week, I was with my builder 20 group. Anderson Windows actually hosted us in Stillwater, Minnesota. Speaking of which Tyler we stayed at the same hotel, I know that's what you said. That place was nice. I like
that. That was fun. Stillwater is super cool. It's funny, like, when you get we said the Laura Hotel, which is beautiful, but it's just that one street, yeah, like, That's it, and but I do remember, remember how we struggled to get coffee in the morning because they didn't open that early. Yeah, found a little espresso bar down the street, really, in the back of a bookstore. And I walked in, and I ordered my cold brew with a double shot. And he goes, Oh,
you're, you're looking to get shit done today. Hell, yeah. I'm like, That's what I ordered. We walked to that diner down the street. Oh, yes. And it's like a hole in the wall, I know, but didn't we? I think we got, like, pickle chips and something else that, like, in, like, pancake, it was random. Yeah, very coffee wasn't very good. No, that was my point. This recipe bar, the coffee was good, and he goes, you're gonna love this. I mean, I mean, it wasn't the best
coffee ever had, but it's still water Minnesota. No, that's a cool town. It's suburbs of where they're, where their plant is. So they put us up there. It is neat, though. It's like, right on the river there. Yeah, super old buildings that have been renovated. And, like, I. I guess for that area kind of happening, it was cool. Remember, it was like, super nice. We had outside, yeah, the they were getting ready for the river to thaw out, and they were, like, sandbagging
everything. Oh, yeah, forgot about that. It's funny, though your email, I'll try and go through, like, the responses kick over to me as well, so I can tell that it was an email that resonated with people, because I'm like, getting a ton of emails coming in for people, and I like to read all of them, then I kick them over to another folder. But I also was on Instagram and sent you the quote that you like based the email off of before I had read your email. I know.
I was like, is Tyler either saying I copyrighted this? Like, Hey, dude, someone else posted it, or not real has not read my email. I hadn't seen your email yet because they, like, all came in, I just wasn't in the in the office this morning. And then you were like, That's the That's, I mean, the quote was, you didn't say the quote. But like, I was like, Damn, that's so right. And I feel like it's like right on point with most of what we talk about.
Well, I so I paraphrase the quote because it was numerous slides, but part of it in my email, it says, I'm convinced business is a self development tool disguised as a money making game. Selling, exposures you're selling, exposes your self worth hiring, exposes your control issues. Leadership exposes your communication and scaling. That exposes everything. And I've read that this morning, and that's what actually prompt me
to write this email. And the email is actually titled, When your pants are around your ankles in a boardroom, primarily for the clickbait, but, but when you open it up, it's, it's very relatable. And what I meant by that, you know, essentially, in my builder 20 group, I'm sitting with 19 other builders. And, you know, we share everything. We're sharing full financials, where we where we're winning, where we're losing, why, you know,
we're basically questioning on everything. And basically, you know, anything that looks out of place, you know, I get, I get the same question every year. It's like, why are you spending so much money on marketing? And you know, from a percentage perspective, and compared to other builders in the room, it's, you know, 4x what other people spend. And you know, I have to sit there and justify it. But what it really does is it forces me to be vulnerable and exposes all the cracks in my
business. And really, when I left there, it made me think hard about what you had said back in episode 353 about scaling. And you know, if I were to take a step outside of my business and look at my business, would I want to buy it? And, you know, in my my reaction is, well, no, not now, but, you know, I always have this like, but in the future, in
the future, in the future, in the future. And I think that, you know, I go on to talk about the problem, and I think the problem is, is that we use this term over investing, or it's all marketing, and there's totally some truth to that. And it's you have to you have to do this to grow. You have to do this to scale. You have to do this to get experience like, I fully agree with that. I think the issue with it is that we don't
know when to stop. Yeah, and also, like the other aspect, when you think of businesses outside of construction, or businesses out of you have like this, this single person who has a passion for something, and then they want to turn that into their business, which I think is like art a lot of like small shops that people start you like, when bigger businesses start up, they they allocate a certain amount of money that they borrow to start up, to
marketing, like, to all of these different aspects of their business, whether it is like HR, like business development, lead generation, marketing, advertising, that's not the way that our business is shaped. So most people come into business and it's like, you're going to start at zero employees and work up from there. And we never allocate any sort of expenses to anything correctly. So anything that costs us more money, we're
just like, oh, that's going to go into marketing. I didn't make money on this job, but it's going to be, you know, it'll be great to photograph. We'll be able to create all of this good sales, marketing from it where, if you think of like a bigger business or a business in a different industry, they're going to account for that, and, yeah, they're going to be in the red for a few years. But it's it's all measured and calculated
with us. It's just like we're in the red and we're trying to figure out how to get out of the red, and until we do that, we're just attributing all of these failures and mistakes and inefficiencies to marketing to experience, to growth to education, and it's not quite as calculated. No, it's just this constant response to, you know,
mismanagement, and I will be the first to admit that I think. You know, 11 years in business, you know, I took a lot of risk and dumped a lot into projects specifically to make them cooler than they were, right? It's like, you take the profits and dumped it in. I've, I've talked about that here on the podcast numerous times, is that I took every bit of profit dumped into the project, made it cooler, took $100,000 job, turned it into $140,000 job. $1,000 job to sell the next 140,000 and so on
and so forth. But it's when, when, when do you stop that you know, figure leading. And really, you know, understand that your business needs to be profitable. And you know, and I think, for, I think this is where, like, going back to the quote and scaling that exposes everything. This is exactly what it's talking about. It's you start realizing that you are growing. You are scaling your business, whether it's growth or people or revenue or like it, it's typically not profit, at
least in this business. You know, you hear people talk constantly about hiring more people, doing bigger jobs, you know, even us, you know, we're really trying to hyper focus in this kind of ten million realm. And people are like, why? And it's like, well, it just, you know, you think it's because you want to hit this revenue projection. But you know, it, that's a vanity number, right? You can do, you can do, you can
do $100 million a year and be making no money. I look at it also from, like a startup perspective, and if, when you started your business, or when I started my business, if we would have sat down with somebody who understood business and, like projected or mapped out what our fiscal years would look like up through year like 10, because we don't do that. We get into business. We don't understand business. We make
mistakes. We try not to make that mistake again. And we're really just, you know, throwing shit and seeing throwing shit at the wall and seeing if it sticks. And then I look at my wife has worked for some startups, and we've done some stuff with startups, and I look at like, what they do and how they map things out, and how they have investors. And I'm like, if I would have had an investor to start my business,
right? I didn't want to go into business with debt, but had I had an investor when I went to start my business, would I have had a clearer roadmap of what my growth needed to look like to offset that cost, and at the same time, like the one big thing is that I would have gotten paid from the get go, I would have had to put money aside to pay myself, and I think that that would have really showcased, or highlighted a lot of the inefficiencies and trouble within my model, which I
think that, you know, having an actual business plan in place would do. So we don't do that, and we just, we just keep writing everything off as this learning experience, when in actuality, we're just, you know, five years, 10 years into business, really operating a business that is inefficient, you're barely squeaking by, and you don't know where you're
bleeding from. There's a ton of startups that fail, but throughout that, that growth, or throughout the the formative years of being a startup, everyone is getting paid, right? The investors are risking possibly getting a return on that. But like, these companies aren't running the bigger startups where it's structured and there's money being invested and capital going into them, like people aren't just not
getting a paycheck, like we are in our business. And I think part of that's just like, the barrier to entries really low, and it allows us to go into business with no debt, which is good, but then at the same time, like, what sort of accountability do we have if we're not in debt? And we can kind of just keep the wheels in motion and keep the lights on,
and we're not making money, we're not losing money. I feel like it prolongs the suffering where, if you were like, Hey, I'm gonna pay myself 200 grand a year, and you go into business, you would, within probably six months, be like, I can't. I'm not making 200 grand a year. Like, so we continue to go down that path that I don't feel like really sets us up for business success, and I think that that also relates back to the conversation that we had where it's like, Would somebody else
buy your business if they saw your numbers? And with that said, I don't think your numbers have to be huge. I think it has. You have to take into account how much time is being invested into the business. Because, like, I would purchase a business that made 100 grand profit a year if you were only spending six hours a week on it, right? You know. So, like you,
you have to account for the. I think that a lot of times we lie to ourselves about how much time we're spending on the business and how much we're investing in it, because there's no real structure to our businesses. Yeah, and I think, you know, we lie to ourselves in terms of the fact that we think everything that that we're over investing into will pay off when it's, you know, the is, is that, do you
actually believe that? Yeah. And I think even going back to, like, our development project, 45 white oak, it's, you know, there was a time when it's like, in my you know, I questioned what I was doing, you know. And I say that with a smirk, because, you know, I feel like I probably should have questioned
that a lot more. But at this point in time, like we've, we've, I've went, it's now been almost, you know, two years since we started this entire process, and now I can kind of see the the light and and realize, no, this was exactly
how this had to unfold. This was going to be incredibly challenging, but we set out with a with a goal, and to date, we have not veered off that goal and and the challenging times and the hard times were, the times that you know were, were designed like by nature, were going to test whether or not I had the fortitude to make it through and just keep, keep, keep pushing all the way through to where we are today. And I think, you know, but that doesn't that, that doesn't
always, that isn't always the case. And I think, from a business perspective, it's we think that these decisions that we're making, you know, I feel like I'm contradicting myself here, but you know, these decisions that we're making in terms of the investment into what the future holds. You know, we lie to ourselves and say yes, but that's going to allow me to do this, and that's going to allow me to grow and and I realize I'm contradicting myself, because I haven't
finished white oak, right? Like that. That project is not done, and there's a chance that it doesn't lead to another project or or this influx of people that want this product, I just, you know, for me and where we're at and what I'm trying to accomplish. You know, this is my I guess, the way I'll kind of summarize that is, in my opinion, what I'm doing with white oak is kind of my last effort to to to launch our
business to where we want it to be. And the reason I say that is I think everything I've done up to date has been these small moments that have been quote unquote over investments into the business, knowing that I'm going to spend more than I make in order for me to love to, quote, unquote, level up where that's not what I'm doing here, I'm spending a lot to to to catapult us in the direction we want to, but not doing it at a loss, or not doing it at a break even. It's, it's, it's still
designed to be a profitable business. It's just, you know, a much bigger ask and a bigger effort to to ultimately move that, that forward. Well, I think the other thing like, you're going through this entire process and it's going like the results are going to lead you in one direction or another, right? It's either going to be proof of concept one way or the other, right? This is going to work, or
this isn't going to work. And I think that what you have to do, based on how this all unfolds, is like, use this moving forward, where it's like, this works, this doesn't work. Or, you know what, I shouldn't have spent the money here, or I should have possibly gone light on this aspect of the budget, or
this was too much risk at the end of the day. Like, I think what most people don't understand with what you're doing here is that regardless of if you make profit or not, to me, like from a business, just a strictly business perspective for this job, not looking at the future and what potential leads may come from it on paper, like this project, just the years that you actually put this work into place, like there are so many other opportunities to make way more money than what you're
doing, right? So, like, this is, again, what you've been saying, as far as investing in your future, like the amount of resources, time and money that you've invested in this risk and everything else you probably could make Forex that had you
spend time, yeah, anything different with that? Like, in the building industry, like, there's way more lucrative paths like this, this whole project for you is not necessarily to like, you know, I'm gonna knock it out of the park on this one, and then I'll make enough money that I can go do what I do.
Like, at the end of the day, the amount. Of money and resources that you're dumping into this are only going to either prove that it can be replicated and obviously amended and streamlined, or that like, yeah, there's not a market for this moving forward, but it's not necessarily in real time, just making you gobs of money. No, and I think, you know, I make this, I made this reference the other day a good friend of mine. It was a sport, supercar
mechanic. He worked for McLaren and sitting on the couch with the kids a couple weekends ago, and we were just browsing YouTube, and I had come across this Docu series about Bugatti. And I was talking about, you know, they had this whole Docu series about each car and, like, the story behind it. And it's really what I'm trying to do with white oak. If you go to the white you know, we actually just launched the white oak website it I took a lot of inspiration from how they they, they tell
the story around the car. But I was talking about how what I'm doing with what oak is exactly what they do with these super cars and hyper cars is that they go into this R D process on, how do I build the best car, period. And that is, like, there is no, oh, we can't use, you know, Bill at aluminum. We don't have the
budget for it. It that. Like, that's not the conversation. The conversation is, how do we build the best car, and how do we, you know, smash this record and that record, and, and I, and that's really, you know, that was really a big inspiration for me in terms of what I wanted to accomplish, from a from a building perspective, is I just want to have the opportunity to
build. How do I build the best house if there's no compromise and there's no, you know, there's no constraint, like, what would it take to build what we're trying to do at its
highest level? And you know, the the confidence comes from the fact that you know you're they do sell $5 million cars, $2 million cars, million dollar cars, like though they do sell there's a market for that, and that market is people that value those cars to because of the work that goes into them, not because it's Going to get them to work faster or safer, or it's a it's a good asset, like, that's not why they're buying
that. They're buying it because they value the work that goes into it, and the fact that there was, it was built without compromise. What I'm sorry. But to finish my point, I was chatting with my friend, and I was talking about it, and was relating it, and he goes, Yeah, but the difference is, is Bugatti is where VW is spending all their fun money. And I
laughed, and I was like, you know, it's you're right. And another friend of mine was like, you really should just build specs, like, super basic, like, just stuff that you can crank 25 35% on and just knock them out and just have that be your profit center. And in the background you're building these like mega projects as your passion. And I don't totally disagree. The part I disagree with is I don't want that to be
my profit center. I don't want my profit center to be the complete opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish with with, you know, you know, with white oak. Well, I think it depends on, like, what your inspiration is and what what your motivations are. And I think that, I think that your motivations and your reasons for doing white Ark white oak are more than just satisfying the desire to build
the best house. I think that you are are trying to prove a model and and possibly sustainability for that model, I think it's probably a little bit of an F. You to everyone who didn't
believe in it over the years. I and it probably goes hand in hand with this where, like, as you're telling me this story, I'm like, well, Bugatti is just from, like, a business and a company, and, like, a heritage perspective and the duration, like, how long Bugatti has been in business versus you, like, they're probably in a much more realistic position to be in.
Like, well, yeah, let's experiment with this very risky model, rather than you in your business, like still being very small, from a business perspective, in the grand scheme of things, where it's like, yeah, they probably have enough incentives, from a tax perspective to be like, Yeah, let's try a bunch of this shit and see. If it works where it's like you're still trying to do this while making a living, and it's not your fun money, so it puts a lot more stake in it for
you. But I think that that just proves your motives for doing this are more than just money. They're more than just wanting to say f you to some people, they're more than just trying to prove a concept like I think it's it's all of that accumulated together and big picture, what you're what you're trying to do with your life and your business. And I think that's what makes it as gratifying as it can be, but also as challenging as it can be, because we're not willing to compromise.
Yeah, I think that's where, like, I guess, going back to the core here it's, you know, looking at a business that is profitable and and not over investing into these client projects and constantly, you know, thread like walking a thin line between being profitable and trying to scale the business where it's you find what drives the profit in the business, and you, and you make sure that you, you remain cash flow positive,
you remain profitable. And when you're, when I'm doing a project like white oak, you know, it should pencil and it should be profitable, and it should, you know, be a success in the end, however, you know, that is not the like. That is not where the cash is being made on, you know, that consistent basis that's not, you know, that's not the profit center. I think that also what you're looking at is cash, like verse equity. And I would consider reputation to be, like, equitable or equity,
right, where, like, all right. This is part of my portfolio.
This an investment into our business. This. It's not necessarily tangible equity that you're going to go to a bank and be able to borrow against, but I think that that's part of the challenge here, and I'm even experiencing that with, like, getting, you know, getting the wheels in motion for our own house where, like, if I just look at big picture, by the time I'm done, what the value of the house will be, the development will be like, it's, it's a cash positive, extremely valuable
build and like, we will have a ton of equity in it, but you have to consider, while making your way towards that, like building all of that equity, that you have to have cash to be able to make that happen. So it's like, yeah, if all said and done, I make a million dollars on this project, that's great, but if I don't have the cash to sustain or get me from point A to point B, like is that? Is that a realistic project? Does that make sense? Is that something, is it too risky? Is
it something that somebody would invest in? So I think understanding the difference between equity and and being having enough cash to operate on a daily basis is also really important, because at the end of the day, like I said, with my build or with your build, like there's reputation, there's partnerships, there's real estate value and equity that I will have, but if I can't figure out how to swing that from a cash flow perspective, month to month, with our existing
lifestyle and our existing house, like, does it make sense? Yeah, right. And I think that balancing those two and having enough cash on hand and having enough long term equity to kind of stabilize your worth is really important. I mean, you can look at that with, like, the stock market and everything else that's going on right now. It's like, do you have enough short term savings as well as long term savings? Like, how are you diversifying your work, your investments to make sure that
you're protected short term and long term, right? And I think that that's that's probably going to be one of your biggest struggles with completing this build is there's a ton of opportunity for equity there, as far as reputation, as far as proof of concept, like emotional equity, as far as, yeah, I made this happen. I got this done. It was a success. Like, I'm super confident in our abilities right now, but also, like, cash flows
a real thing. Yeah, that's all amazing. And that's like to set your sights on on that emotional equity is great, but if you can't sustain that from a business model, yeah? And I think that those are the, those are the trials that I've been through over the last two years of just figuring like, I mean, learning this, right, learning like, what it takes to fund a project on on spec, never mind of the stature that we're doing at White Oak, right? And just understanding the strain
that that can put on. You know, so many things. Cash, you know, emotion, just pure willpower to work through and keep pushing. You know, your reference to the fact that, like, yeah, there's probably a handful of people that I'm doing this as a big fu that that weren't in support, or didn't believe that we we could
pull this off. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, I think there's, there's a huge competition in my mind of what we're doing there, I have to be, you know, if we're, if we're, if we're doing, if we're set out to do what we've said we're going to do, it's you know. It's you know, not to sound cliche, but like this hasn't been done before, and it's not, it's not like it hasn't been done in in that neighborhood, or that town
or or even the state like this. This approach has not, it has not been done like this before, and, you know, and I think sometimes it's hard to recognize, but, you know, we, we toured a few people through the home this morning, and they all said the same thing. They're like, this is like, you just don't see a project being executed like this when there's
no one commissioning the project to do, to be this. You know, these decisions are being made as if there were a client deciding on them, and it's, you know, obviously my role is, I'm playing client, I'm playing builder, I'm playing paying, playing developer. But, yeah, it's just this, this, you know, intense, you know, gamble, I guess you could say on the future of of what NS builders will be.
I mean, the other thing that I've considered, and I can relate more to, I still would never do what you're doing to be honest. Like, just put that out there, but like, with what I'm doing in our house, it's been done before, like, by a lot of people, right? But it's never been done by me before, so, yeah, like, it's all relative, right? At the end of the day, whether somebody's done it before, whether nobody's done it
before. It's really just relative to yourself. And for so long, I've been trying to figure out, well, how am I going to make this happen? Like with interest rates going up with our investments, like tanking with cash flow, like restructuring
the business. And if I sit here and I worry about it every day, I'm still not gonna have answers, like, I just have to get up and keep doing and going through the motions and putting one thing in place and then, like, having this big goal plan, but understanding that you're going to have to adapt, because at the end of the day, like, regardless of how many people have done this before. I've never done this, and nobody's done this specifically in the situation with the capital that
we have and the resources that we have in the experiences. So it's still a very unique situation for myself and I'm I'm beginning to understand, like, even in the preliminary stages of this, that I'm not going to have all the answers, like, I'm not, I don't I don't fully understand how all of this is going to happen, and I can have a plan in place, but I'm at the point now where it's like, I'm just going to keep moving forward, and I'm going to do what I can, as I can, as I have
the time, as I have the resources to do it. I'm going to fulfill obligations that I have and make sure that we're I'm not putting ourselves in, like, a bad financial position, but like, I might not have the answers of how I'm going to close this project out financially. Like, I don't have, I don't have any financing in place, because I'm, like, I know I can get from point A to point B, and then I want to see where
I am, yeah. And like, yeah. That's that might not get me, that might not build this project on paper as quickly and as efficiently as I can, but like that's not my goal right now. So understanding that things are going to change three months from now, things are going to change six months from now, I don't know what of what position I'll be in at that point, but I'm going to get up every day and keep moving forward and putting as much as I can in place to keep everything
in life moving forward. And this, this is all new to me. This is the first time going through this, and you know, I'll have experience, but at the end of the day, the next one will be
different than this as well. And I think that just having confidence in your abilities and what your goals are and your mindset and what you're willing to go through make it a little bit easier to deal with those uncertainties, because at the end of the day, every project that anyone ever does is not 100% guaranteed, and I think understanding that makes it a little bit easier to be able to relate to what you're doing.
It's just at a bigger scale than most people are willing to really put themselves like position themselves in I think you, I think your advice there is the best piece of
advice is that you just keep moving forward. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think that's where, you know, we've talked about it before, and we've talked about on the podcast, but, you know, I remember, I think it's been more than once that we've been in the car together, and I've hit a, you know, figure brick wall with something, and it's like, Yep, I'm gonna take a deep breath, and you just gotta plow forward. And it's just, you know, I I've said it 100 times. It's like, yeah, sure, I could just stop.
But what, like, why? What's the benefit of that? Because it's easier, yeah. And I just, I think, you know, I thought about this the other day. I don't think that I always, I don't think I grew up that way. I don't think I grew up like loving to be challenged and and truthfully, I don't think it was until I was a few years into business that I decided to start taking on things that challenged me more and more and more. And I think, you know, a lot of people get really comfortable with
what's comfortable. And for whatever reason, I just, I there was a point, you know, in time where I just, I started getting really uncomfortable with being comfortable. Is that, you know, I just kept considering the fact that, you know, this isn't what I want to be doing. And if I, if what I want to be doing is uncomfortable, then that's, that's the decision I need to make. I need to, I need to, I need to put myself in an uncomfortable position to grow. Yeah,
I don't think that. I mean, when you look at anyone who's highly successful and whatever, if it's profession or athletic or, you know, research, whatever it may be. They are not sitting back waiting for things to happen and then reacting to it like you have. You have to be at the forefront. You have to be
pushing the bounds of what's possible. And I think that that's it's going to open up the door to a lot of adversity and a lot of failure, but I think also, if you have the wherewithal and the strength to move through that, it's going to open up the door to a ton of opportunity, just like the podcast we just had with with Kyle from Harnish, where he's like, I just don't see risk as much in the sense of it just
being traditional. Risk as much as opportunity. And I think it's, it's mindset, and it's how you position yourself leading up to that. I mean, I look at everything, even that's happening with the stock market and all these tariffs and everything that's been put in place, and how chaotic it is, and like it just it affects everyone differently, like it
affects my wife and her work. It affects like me from an investment perspective, but like the investment perspective, most of our investments are long term investments, so we have time to recover from that. But then there's like this whole generation of older people who are either retiring or getting ready to retire, and now they're they're 401 k's and their IRAs and their Roths and all that crap have taken a huge hit, and
now they're like, Well, how am I going to retire? So it affects them different than it does me. But then also, like, I'm talking to one of my younger friends who he's like, Screw all those old
people. Like they are the ones who bought houses for $30,000 and then sold them for a million, and now they're like, it's the first time in their life that they're struggling from like, a financial perspective, where they've just, like, made out, like, everything, and now their investments are taking a slight hit when they're ready to retire. But like, I'm 28 I'm never going to be able to fucking retire. And it's like, so it all affects different
people, and the mentality is different for everyone. So I think the important thing to understand is just like mindset, position yourself, so that you're you're not taking on too much risk, that you can, you can function, that you have the cash flow. I mean, it's just, like, our podcast business, which, like, we didn't run as a business for so long, and we finally do, and we're in a position where it's like, yeah,
we have some money in there. But even, like, the conversation we have where, like, how much do we want to keep for, like, the rainy day fund, and it's like, well, let, let's make sure we have three months of operating costs, plus a little extra buffer. And I think it's, it's stuff like that that allows us, even with modern craftsmen, to take more risk, because we positioned ourselves to be able to sustain or or be able to work
our way through some challenging times or if things slow down. So I think that there's, there's something to say for a lot of that, where you're just making sure that you're as protected as possible, and you're not being foolish, you're not taking on too much risk, and you have the plan in place for a lot of shit. And that doesn't mean that the plan is going that everything's going to go according to plan, but at least if you have something in the back of your mind. Uh, or something accounted
for. You're giving yourself an opportunity to adapt. Yeah, yeah, I think you know. I don't know I for me and for the future of what I want to accomplish. I think, gonna go back to something you said earlier, you know, the the the similarities between the fact that you've never done this and and I'm looking at it as no one's ever done this. It's, you
know, it's the same I've never done this. No one's ever done this, whatever the case is, but for me and for the future of everything that I'm trying to accomplish and bring the team around, I think there's so much that has to be I guess there's so much that has to fall into place and and for what, when I look at my team, and when I look at the people that are involved and when I look at the people that Believe in it, I think that's what is ultimately driving me through that brick
like the brick wall. But is is this like obviously, it is. But when you look at all the fundamentals of this, is this any different than anything you've ever done in the past 20 years?
Well, yeah, in some ways, and I think that's what I was getting at, in the sense that I've lived a life of comfort, and I'm being a little bit hard, like a probably a little a lot of bit critical in the way, because I've always been a hard worker, and I've always worked and, you know, quote, unquote, as my dad would say, like, I always figured it out, but I don't think I ever put myself in like, intentional positions to really,
like, to really grow. And I think this is the first time, not the first time, but I think this is the biggest thing that I've ever done in terms of, like, how do I, how do I, how do I fast track what I'm trying to accomplish. And it goes back to what I said a couple episodes ago, is I just, I have no idea how long I'm here. I hope I live a great 80 plus years. I really do. I want to, you know, for so many personal reasons, but I feel like that is a lot of people's crutch in terms of, oh,
you have to be patient. Things, things will happen when they happen. And I think you said it a couple minutes ago, is sure, you know, there is patience, and I will allow things to happen, but I'm not going to sit back and and hope it happens. You know, I think that's where people get confused, is like,
I'm not, it's not that I'm impatient. It's that I'm gonna push as hard as I can and allow things to happen, but not, not, not sit by the wayside and hope that, you know, hey, do you want a couple million bucks to build a really cool house and see if it works like that? Not how it works. Yeah. But like, if you look at your life 10 years ago, I don't feel like fundamentally, it was that much different. It's just the
numbers are different. Like, you know, hiring your first employee, taking that first bigger job, buying the first piece of equipment, renting your first shop space. Like, it's all risk, it's all growth, it's all uncertainty, it's all crunching the numbers. How am I going and like, at the end of the day, most of the time, we're just being like, Um, okay, we'll make it work. We'll figure it out. But I think that, like all things led you here, and it's still in line with everything
that you've done up to this date. And I think outside looking in, like you say that you haven't, you haven't put that much risk on yourself, or you haven't put your place yourself in a position to be accountable for growth. But like, the way I see it, in the way that I look at it, is it's way more than I've ever done. Everything that you've ever done, from that perspective, and from assuming risk and exposure
is way more than I've ever been comfortable with. And it's it's been a progression to get here, like everything that you've done in the growth and the hiring people and the taking on projects and interviewing architects and trying to build these projects that are all one off, like, it's been somewhat of a natural progression to get here, and you probably have had feelings similar to what you're feeling now every step along the way, it's just in the like everything that you're doing now
is trumping that to the point where it just seems so minimal and in perspective. Yeah, well, I mean to kind of shift gears. Dollars a little bit. You know, this is a product of what you and I have been working on, too, is, you know, documenting what it takes to to build a successful business, to scale. And I think, you know, in 353, we talked about scaling, and how that's not necessarily size or
or people, sometimes it's just refining. You know what the business is, you know what, what scope of work you want to do. You're, you know, you're, I'm speaking for you, but you are looking to reduce the amount of projects that you do and really cater to those clients that are deserving of of the work and craftsmanship that you put into it as a solopreneur, you know. And I have went around the world and back again in terms of what I thought the business would be, or could be, or the size of it.
And going back to, you know, my builder 20 group last year, I mean, I'm sorry, last week, you know, I spent my whole time traveling back from Minnesota on the plane, rebuilding, you know, kind of looking at it in new eyes and taking your advice as to like, if I'm just a investor and I want to buy into this business, you know, restructure like, what? What is working, what's not. How do I get rid of it? How do I fix things? How do I like? What do I really need to focus on and and bring that.
Those opportunities bring a lot of clarity for me and, you know, and I think while I'm doing that, you and I are working on this, this, this scaling outline that is something that we'll share with anyone that's listening. But you know, the whole point of this is, well, what does work? What, you know, what, what is, what are the things that are fundamentally required to build a successful business, that are, that are
necessary to to have some sort of structure around. And a lot of it just come, comes down to, you know, like the fact of understanding what your business is doing, and you know, and sitting down with 19 other builders and combing through the financials and just explaining myself around every line item, and then watching 19 other builders do the same thing, and see everything from guys that are doing you know, incredibly well, to guys that are doing okay, to guys that are
struggling, to guys that are that need, you know, implementation and help immediately, and understanding how we work together to lift everyone up. And it's and it all comes back to the same thing of like, you need to stop, understand the fundamentals, understand where you're at, and understand what the difference between where you're at and where you want to be, and be super clear with that so you can understand the steps to get there. Yeah, I think back to the I'd have to look up the number of
the podcast we just recently recorded with Brad. And I think that that was really a lot of the motivation for getting going on this and understanding what scaling looks like. And I think that, like you said, it, it doesn't like scaling doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go from two employees to 20. It doesn't mean that you have to go from $500,000 in sales to,
you know, 5 million. I think it's more so about understanding what your business looks like along the way and at each stage and with one employee versus two employees verse three, so that you can structure your business for maximum efficiency and maximum profitability. And I think that that's where most
people end up struggling. Like I've not that I ever scaled my business massively, but I put a lot of things in place, from a marketing perspective, putting work in place, building projects, and really understanding what my numbers look like, from a sub model, from a self performance model to, you know, Self performing with in house employees versus
managing subs. And I understand what a lot of that looks like, and I understand that like my market and my model, and what my margins look like with those different models will dictate the type of projects that I need to take on the type of client that I need and where I should be spending my time and efforts, and I understand that there's better jobs that are a better fit and better clients that make me more money and allow me to diversify what I'm doing, and so that's where I end up focusing
my efforts. But I have enough of an understanding with what my business has looked like over the 15 years that models that weren't necessarily working in the past, I could implement now and they would work for me. So I've always left the door open to be like, like, I have a half a dozen emails in my inbox from return clients or clients that have are friends with people I've worked for before. Uh, that are great jobs, like bigger
jobs, smaller jobs, everything in between. And I put enough in place that I can pick and choose what projects I want, but if I wanted to do more, I have the systems, I have, the processes, I have the information to understand like and really reduce the amount of risk that I'm assuming by taking those projects on. And I know what my limit is like. I know how much I can put in place to still fulfill obligations and meet expectations and reduce the amount of liability, exposure
and risk that I have. It doesn't necessarily work in every market, but you can cater a lot of those principles to you and to your market, and a lot of those numbers are translatable and transferable, whether you have 1234, employees and work your way up, it's just understanding on the back end what that looks like, and ensuring at the end of the day that you're covering all of the costs associated with them, and that you're putting work in place that's equitable and can
be billable and can be capturable from a business perspective, and I think that from a scalability perspective, the biggest struggle that everyone has is they don't have the systems in place to understand how to capture all of the work that they're putting into place, like they're putting non equitable work into place, or they don't have the systems to manage people, to make sure that it's billable work, whether
it's it's fixed cost, or it's time, material or cost. Plus you're putting work in place, and then you're trying to figure out how to bill for it on the back end. And I think that that is the key to scaling, is ensuring that you understand those numbers. But then also you have the systems in place to understand how to manage that, how to capture it, and how to adjust based on market, based on job, because it's all different.
Like, Every job is different, every market's different. You know, if you're doing a kitchen versus an addition, there's costs that are associated with that time, that's associated with that, and you have to understand that. And I think that a lot of times those should be your limitations for scaling more so than just like, what the market's willing to offer you as far as jobs, like, if I wanted to do 10 jobs at a time right now, I put enough in place that I could make that happen, but I
just know that for me, that's not what makes me money. So I don't do that like I buckle down and I find the balance between putting less work in place and ensuring that my margins are where they need to be. And I think that that's something that you can do at scale. The margins tend to go down, but your your understanding of all of that should be very detailed and very
in depth. You can't just keep adding people to the mix and expect that what you made with one person is going to be what you make with two and three and four, because there a lot of a lot of things change with that. How are you going to balance building your your house with
other projects? Um, I mean, in truth, and it's nothing that we really talked about, but it's a lot of the reasons why over the past 12 to 18 months, I've been trying to structure my work to be a split between the podcast, social media and business, why I've invested money In certain aspects, why I've invested in certain equipment, why I've structured my schedule to be a certain way so that I can afford to put the time that I need to
into my own house. And again, we just discussed this, but how I can float that from a cash flow perspective, and then on the back end, come out of it with enough equity that I don't have a super high mortgage with a really high interest rate,
because right now, our interest rates really low. So it's been everything that I've been putting in place for the past 12 to 18 months, trying to monetize some of our social monetize some of our podcasts, and create a revenue stream outside of just swinging a hammer to make money, because my model has always been based on the owner, operator type model where most of my
money comes in from me, self performing work. So if, if I can't be swinging a hammer for a paying client, how can I make money, right while not doing that, but then also, when I am swinging a hammer, how am I maximizing my efficiency and my profitability on those projects? Who's that client that's willing to pay me the money that it makes sense to not be in the office or not working on social or not? Working on my own house.
So it's just, it's been a big adjustment, and a lot of changes that I've been putting in place and testing different models, as far as how I can offset those costs and how I can make money outside of me, just, you know, pounding nails. Cool thing about building, like the fact that you build your own home is it's you're still number one, you're still building, right? You're still doing your your hands on work, but you have far more creative control over the content that you're able to
to create. And something that we were talking about at JLC, it's like and you get to work with partner, partners that want, want to bring, you know, product to market that makes sense for your project. I mean, I love the fact, one thing I've always appreciated about the way that you approach things is, I think
you're very calculated, and which is different than me. I just kind of push, push, push, push, and you're looking at it completely, you know, as a complete calculation all the way through in terms of how do you do this make that makes sense today, and ultimately, the consideration of what it will cost to run and to maintain and and what that looks like in comparison to, obviously, your income, but the ability to to quote, unquote step away from project type work to focus on
the podcast, which, you know, obviously I'm excited about, and I think this year has been, you know, you guys that are listening have been great. You know, we, we continue to see, you know, growth behind this and and continue to support, which is amazing. You know, coming up on, I think we're coming up in eight years, or something like that. But the ability for you to do that while also building something that will be your first ground up home, and being able to document that entire
thing, which will then pay you back, is is awesome. Yeah, I mean, it's been like, it's, it's not as though this has been years in the making, and I think that that's a lot of time what people don't understand that, like, you can't just plan for something down the road without having a complete understanding
of what things look like today. And I, like, I could, I couldn't put anything in place for something I want to do a year for now from now, without understanding what today looks like, and then being able to like, really extrapolate that
what will a year look like from now. And it so much of this just goes back to like, when I switched by model, more so to like a TNM model and reduce the amount of employees, and took on more of a sub model, and still like balancing that with meeting the ex, the execution that I need, and just understanding like, what the day of day to day of life looks like, what the day to day of my business looks like, how I can make money, Understanding like, where I make more money than other areas, and
then saying to myself, Well, I'm not making money on volume. I'm not really making money on employees. So what is my time worth? Where should I be spending that time? And then focusing on landing more of that type of stuff that maximizes the money that I can make, and wherever that positions me, whether it's on a social side of things, whether it's on a management side of things, a consulting side of things, for
me, I've just learned that I like differentiation. I like to live in a bunch of different worlds and not be completely overwhelmed with one. So I've been trying to blend the three, four of them, to make a living that works for us and still frees me up enough to continue to work on things on the back end. And yeah, like, it's been challenging, and it's the one thing that I think that people don't understand when you scale, or when you change your model, or when you look to do something
else is it's not less work, it's just different work. You know, like, if you want to go all social, if you want to build your own specs, if you want to, like, self finance, all your own builds. It's not that you're necessarily working less. Maybe you are a few hours less. Maybe there's less headache and less stress. It's just different, like, it's more maybe it's more office work, maybe it's more client meeting, maybe it's more
management it's less of one type of work. But it doesn't mean that I'm working less than I ever was, and I think that people have to understand that, like, there's no cheat code, there's no secret. You're still gonna have to work a lot. It's just different.
Yeah, I mean, I think we went through that with the podcast, you know, cup, probably a year ago at this point, was when we really decided that we wanted to, you know, be more actionable and invest in the podcast and, you know, and just transparently make some money from it. And I think early on, we were like, Oh, this is going to be a breeze. You. And then, to your point, you know, we start doing the work that it takes. It's
like, No, this isn't a breeze. It's just different. Yeah, it's, you know, it's weeks on end of work, and it's, you know, sure, it's, you know, there's, there's kind of a larger reward for a heavy investment up front, but you know, it's still, it's still immense amount of work and effort to pull it off. It's just, as you said, different. Yeah,
it's been neat. And like, I would suggest that most people who like, if you're in my position, if you're in your position to like, try different things, to step back to understand what your business looks like. I think that most of the time, it just happens so quickly. You get into business, you don't know what you're doing, you grow. You think that adding more people is going to solve your problems, and typically, it just usually can make it worse before it gets any
better. And then I think at that point, you're you're trying to put out fires, and you're trying to Band Aid things, and you don't really have the systems in place to grow at the scale that you do, and it gets so out of control that, you know, 510, years have gone by, and you're just staying afloat. So I would recommend to most people, like, we had the conversation where it's like, put your position, your your business, to be a
business that somebody else would want to purchase. And I even look at that from, like, the podcast perspective, right? And it's like, okay, we're moving in that, not that we're selling the podcast, but like, it's moving to be something where it's like, okay, this could be a viable business for somebody to invest in. But I also think, like, is it because it needs us to run so, like, what, what are, are there ways that we can position this business that maybe don't
necessarily need us as much to run? And that's what I look at from my own business, where it's like, like, what can I do? How can I change my business to be a lucrative investment for somebody that were essentially turnkey. And I think once you start doing that, you you remove yourself a little bit more, and you look at it from the outside, and you like that ego is pulled away from the business. And it's instead of Tyler and TRG, it's
like its own little entity. And I'm like, Yeah, somebody would come in and buy this at this point, because I have the leads set up, like I have the marketing dialed, I have the customer base, I have the clients. It's all set up that it could be a turnkey business for somebody, and like, the numbers make sense without having to put 100 hours a week into it. And,
you know, it's, sorry, good. Well, it's like, you wouldn't buy my business if you wanted to be a millionaire next week, but if you want to, like, get off the ground, or if you want to buy it as, like, a portion of other business investments, it would make sense for somebody. And again, this, I'm not looking to sell my business, but I'm just looking at it from that perspective. And I think when you do, you start being more
realistic and honest with yourself. To be like my business isn't something that somebody would want to buy. Yeah, and I think you know something you said about the processes and the leads and the workflow, I think one of the things I'm realizing is that our processes and our in the way we go about building is completely dialed, yeah. And if I was serving the same market I was five years ago, our elite flow
would be dialed, yep. And the biggest issue I or the biggest kind of brick wall I face on the on the custom building side is, I'm going after stuff that's quote, unquote, outside of my typical territory. Yeah, you're moving too fast, yeah. I mean, whether it's fast or too fast, it's, it's, yeah, well, your systems don't have enough time to catch up to what the system well,
the systems are fine. And I guess that's my point. Is, like, we've invested so heavily on our process and our system, like to the, you know, from the way we price projects, I just, you know, I'll share, I got an email right before this podcast. And you know, this, this large job that I was, I was going after they, they decided not to move forward with us. And I back back up to two weeks ago, they called and said that they're not going to move forward with me because I was because our pricing was
way more than the other. There's two other builders that were less than us. Yeah. And I said, Hold on a second. I said, we have a very, very conceptual price. You know that, like, we shouldn't be comparing pricing at this point. And we also discussed that this, you were asking us to put together, like, our gut reaction to the project, and then we would interview and walk through our process. So I convinced the client to, or the
architect, in fact, to still meet with me and the client. And because I was like, like, this is completely unfair, like that. You know. Yeah, it was a Delta of $3 million I was five and a half million dollars. Yeah? Like, you, like, no, like, you can't build No, I don't care who it is, you're not building the same project for two and a half million dollars. And I got the email this morning saying that, hey, you know we're not gonna waste anyone else's time. We decided to move forward with two
and a half million dollar guy. I'm like, that's crazy. Yeah, and, but, but I got some feedback, and they were like, Yeah, you're, you know, your proposal was the most detailed. Like, it was super, super clear, like, the client really appreciated the amount of detail that went into it. Like, walk through the whole process like you could, you could really
understand what you were doing. And I'm like, what? Yeah, you know, different situation, like, where, you know, they're, they're, you know, they, they made a couple comments, basically, like, they didn't value the fact that we would be a good partner in it. And they, they were, quote, unquote, okay with a cowboy doing the job. And I was like, this is an insane
conversation right now. Like, not A, not a team I want to be part of anyway, but, you know, and like, at the end of the day, that's all it is, is that, like they don't, it's, it's not the same job. But even that being said, they just, they don't value the way that you've positioned your business. So Right? It's, it's up to you to go find the leads and the architects and the sales to support, to support that, right? And that's where like for me. Now it's, you know, to kind
of put a bow on this. It's, you know, 45 wood oak is, you know, a completely different model than going and building custom homes and finding clients. So it's, it's so interesting because I, I'm, I'm doing all of the, I'm doing all of the marketing at this point. So I'm, I'm putting these two hats on. It's like, all right, I gotta sell a house. All right, I gotta go sell jobs. And it's, you know, it's, it's very different
marketing. Like, the takeaway there is that again, you're going to get an outcome from this entire process, and it's going to provide a lot of answers for you and a lot of clarity for you. And it is an investment in yourself and in your business. No matter what way you slice it, it's just going to come down to balancing that with the cash flow operating a business and building a house at the same time and not losing sight of that. But yeah, it's a it's been an interesting 1218, months. I
know that, like, everything's been changing so much. I know that it's been the same for you. It's been the same for the podcast, like, I'm excited for the opportunity. It's been it's
been good, it's been challenging. It's been distracting enough that, like a lot of the rest of the BS that's going on in the world and other people's struggles and what people are complaining about, I'm like, in my own little world, just dealing with the things you know that are important to me right now, and it's given me enough isolation from that that it's not consuming me, which is good. I'm
it's been fun. It's just it's been different. And it's, I think, that it's led to a ton of growth, personally and professionally. For me, I'm doing a lot of things that I didn't anticipate doing, and putting myself out there in a way that I never have, and actually understanding the value that I can bring to those relationships, which has been
really cool. I always, I always, I think I always from the from the outset, like when we started writing for fine homebuilding, thought that, like, all of these companies were always doing us such a favor, and I don't realize, like, the amount of value and impact that we can bring to these relationships. I always saw it as the other way around. And I'm, I'm at the point now where, like, it's a, it's a very like the benefit and the growth is is extremely mutual at this point, and it's
just a good feeling. Podcast, business, partnerships, everything. It's been super cool to see. I'm excited to see where the next 12 to 18 months go. I feel like it's not letting up on the gas pedal, it's gonna be really cool. Keep moving forward. Hell yeah, guys, if you want to be on this email,
we send out a couple emails a week. We you know, but Monday morning is typically, I start my day off and I fire up an email about what's on my mind and get it out to all of you guys, if you want to join that newsletter, modern craftsman.co, scroll down. Join the newsletter, and I'll make sure you're on the list. And as always, we appreciate your feedback, your support, and we will see you next week, Thursday. You. I trust my mama. You're no match for my bad karma. You.